Oral history interview with Gary Montgomery

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is February 8, 2011. I'm interviewing Gary Montgomery for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're [in Oklahoma City] at the home of one of your collectors, Nancy Hughes, one of your strong supporters over the years. You were born in Seminole, Oklahoma. Did you live in town or outside of town?

Montgomery: Outside of town.

Little Thunder: What was it like growing up in that part of Oklahoma?

Montgomery: I loved every minute of it. Actually, I guess I really can't remember that far back. (Laughter) Anyway, we lived out in the country, and we were kind of farmers, rancher-type people, and I was raised by my grandparents. My grandparents raised chickens, hogs, cattle, horses. Anything to get the gander, so to speak. So yeah, I enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: I wondered if you had horses because they're so important in your pictures.

Montgomery: Yes. As a matter of fact, I was given a horse, a black stallion by the name of Brunky when I was very small. I love horses.

Little Thunder: Did you ever compete? Rodeo stuff?

Montgomery: I never got to do much of anything with the horses, actually, because when I was very young, my grandparents passed away, and I had to go to boarding school at a very young age, about eight years old. And from that point on, the ranch situation ceased to exist because of the death of my grandparents.

Little Thunder: That must have been such an abrupt--

Montgomery: Yes, it was a big change, so to speak. But Native Americans have a way of adapting. Didn't make any difference what situation you're in, you learned how to adapt and you adjust, or it's bye-bye. So yeah, I was young. I was sent to a boarding school because my grandparents passed away, and my mom was remarried, and she didn't have the wherewithal to support another child. And 3:00off to boarding school I went.

Little Thunder: Was it Eufaula or where'd you go?

Montgomery: I went to Jones Academy down in Hartshorne.

Little Thunder: Brothers and sisters?

Montgomery: No. I was the only one. My brothers, they didn't have to go. Like I said, they stayed with my mom and step-dad, and they raised them. I was the only one that had to go to boarding school. But I enjoyed it after the first couple of weeks. You kind of miss your parents and your grandparents, and you don't know what to think, but [after a] period of adjustment, you start going with the flow and you're young enough at that age that, that's it.

Little Thunder: And you were raised speaking your language at home, so at Jones, 4:00that wasn't a hard transition?

Montgomery: Yes, being raised by your grandparents, that's what we spoke, was Seminole. When I started elementary school, I didn't know how to speak English, whatsoever. But I went to elementary school at Strother Elementary for the first couple of years and I learned how to speak English. So by the time I did go to Jones Academy, I knew how to speak English fluently.

Little Thunder: Were you exposed to any art classes in elementary school?

Montgomery: Not really. But when I was growing up, my mom's brother was a commercial artist in Tulsa, and he was always bringing me paper and pencils and 5:00coloring books, all kinds of things like that to get me started. Actually, I started doing paintings on the walls at a very young age. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Sounds like an artist.

Montgomery: My mom didn't appreciate that too much.

Little Thunder: Were your grandparents supportive of your drawing? Did they know you like to draw?

Montgomery: I can't really say. I was always out messing with the horses and doing other things. I didn't really sit down and draw or paint then. It was only after they passed away that I began living with my mom [and] my uncle started 6:00coming down--

Little Thunder: That's when you discovered art.

Montgomery: That's when I started getting crayons, much to the chagrin of my mom.

Little Thunder: At Jones Academy did they offer art classes?

Montgomery: Yes, as a matter of fact, I won my first award when I was in the fourth grade. It was a fireman's fundraising thing. They had a little art contest at the elementary school [level] and I won what I would [call] the grand award for my age group.

Little Thunder: That's great.

Montgomery: It was good. That was the first time I ever got to associate with a 7:00winning competition. It was a good feeling. I think I won five bucks and a trip to the theater. Five bucks, to me that was a lot of money back then. (Laughter) That was a lot of candy bars.

Little Thunder: So did you attend Jones [Academy] through high school?

Montgomery: No, I went from third grade to the eighth grade. And when I went through the eighth grade, I asked my mother if I could come back and go to school at Strother, and she said, "Yes." She said, "We'll set another place at the table and put another nail in the wall." So, that's when I started school at Strother. I had already been playing basketball and football at Jones Academy. I 8:00kind of hated leaving football because Strother didn't have a football program. But they had basketball and baseball. I was always kind of an athlete, anyway, whether it was running through the forest (we grew up in the forest) or running through the woods chasing chickens. Chasing chickens for my supper, is what it was.

Little Thunder: You got pretty involved with baseball, right?

Montgomery: Yes, I graduated--I wasn't All-State or anything. When you're a Class C high school, all the All-Staters come from big schools. They hardly ever notice small school athletes. But when I went to Murray [State College] I [had] played high school, and I was always involved in summer league baseball, and 9:00people always told me that I had the ability to play. But you don't know until you actually get into bigger competition. When I went to Murray State College, I went out because I enjoyed playing sports. I didn't know if I could make the team, but I did. Actually, the person who really got me started thinking that I could play baseball at a college was Jean--golly, I forgot his name now. He coached at OBU [Oklahoma Baptist University] for a long time. He coached baseball, baseball and basketball for a while. He's the one that got me started 10:00thinking that I could compete. And when I went to Murray, I went out for the baseball program down there and I made the team. I wanted to play at a bigger school, so I transferred after my freshman year to East Central [University] and I started playing baseball for--there's another coach that I forgot. (Laughter) But I went to East Central and played baseball there.

Little Thunder: Did you take art classes while you were at East Central?

Montgomery: Yes, yes. I started taking Art classes when I was at Murray.

Little Thunder: So you kept those two things going simultaneously?Montgomery: Oh, yes. Golly. When I was in high school, I was always in the back room, 11:00drawing and doodling around. Teacher would say, "Hey, Gary, what's going on?" "Huh?"

Little Thunder: Did you get recruited to do student posters or anything like that?

Montgomery: I was always getting picked on. If anything came up, something had to be done, "Gary can do it! Yeah! Let's go get Gary. Gary can draw." So yes, I was always getting picked on.

Little Thunder: When you were in college, either at Murray or East Central, were you exploring Indian subject matter in your art classes?

Montgomery: I was always interested in doing horses and Indian subject manner. 12:00But when you're at a university, they more or less stress abstractionism. And I was stuck with it because I was going to school and you have to do it. But the minute I got out, I was always dabbling in Indian art.

Little Thunder: They didn't stress figure drawing or anything?Montgomery: Yes, when I was at Murray, I had a teacher there, his name was Larry Milligan. He stressed figure drawing. I think I learned more from him than I did through my whole college career, because you got to do what you wanted to do, instead of turning on a projector, blurring the image on a wall or on the screen and 13:00saying, "Do something with that," and then leaving the room, which is what D.J. Lafon did half the time. And when you don't want to do that kind of thing, he calls you into his office and says, "Hey, what's the problem here?" Then you quietly tell him, "I came here to be instructed, not for the instructor to leave the room and just leave me hanging." So we didn't get along too well.

Little Thunder: When did you start exhibiting at Indian art shows? When did you make that decision you were going to try doing that full time?

Montgomery: I didn't even know that you could make a living as an artist. I 14:00didn't even know that they had competitions at art shows. When Linda and I got out of college, I went to work at Texas Instruments in Dallas, Texas, and I kind of got tired of the faster pace, being a country boy. After about a year or two, we moved back, and that's when I met Doris Littrell and Bob McCabe and Kelly Haney's dad, Woodrow Haney. They're the ones that encouraged me and got me 15:00started competing and doing Indian art for a living. So I jumped into it, both feet, and never looked back. Occasionally, sometimes, I'll think back and say, "Wow. I wish I could have stayed at TI. I could have been getting a paycheck." But anyway, it's been good.

Little Thunder: Did you move to Oklahoma City or did you move back to Seminole?

Montgomery: I went back to Seminole. We had a little piece of property in Seminole, and I moved in [with] my step-dad and the brothers. Linda and I wanted to move back. Actually, I moved us back without--I didn't really ask her. 16:00(Laughter) I got in trouble for that.

Little Thunder: How did you first meet Doris and Bob? Did you bring [them] some of your paintings?

Montgomery: No. I think somebody told them about me, because they came down to the house, to my house. I remember what happened. I used to sell some small little originals to Barry's Waffle House in Wewoka, Oklahoma. The owner of Barry's Waffle House was Jim Chaddick, and he was very familiar with Doris Littrell and Bob McCabe. He's the one that turned me on to them, and they started buying my work and entering me in competitions. So that's how I got started.

Little Thunder: Sometimes gallery owners or collectors will have an impact on the kinds of things that you explore or think about doing because they respond strongly to certain images or--

Montgomery: Like I said, they didn't have a gallery at the time--Doris and Bob didn't--but they traveled a lot. They were always traveling out to the Heard Museum in Arizona, and they did a lot of correspondence and worked with a lot of galleries out that way, and in Texas and Colorado. Back then they used to travel all over the United States doing art shows, and I can truly say that I won 18:00awards from New Jersey to California without ever actually being there.

Little Thunder: I was wondering if they entered your work in competitive shows.

Montgomery: Yes, I've never been to New Jersey, but I won an award there. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Who were some of the early artists that were also showing with you around that time? Did you do any mall shows?

Montgomery: As a matter of fact, I did one mall show, and it wasn't very successful. It was in Greenville Mall in Mississippi, and the person who put it on lived in Memphis. We traveled there and we made the little trip down to Greenville, Mississippi.

Little Thunder: Did Linda go with you?

Montgomery: Yes, we didn't have any kids, then, and a lot of times, we just picked up and took off.

Little Thunder: Were there some other Indian artists there at the show?

Montgomery: Not then. I was the only Indian artist there. Like I said, if it had been maybe a group showing or something like that, [there] might have been a little bit more of a response. But I was the only one there and there wasn't very much of an advertisement situation. A lot of mall shows can be very deflating to your ego. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Yes, we've done a few of those. So were you entering shows like the Philbrook Annual or the Anadarko Indian Fair?

Montgomery: Yes, like I said, Doris got me into a lot of these shows. She got me 20:00into Philbrook, and I think back then, the Gilcrease [Museum] had a few shows, too. I painted in oils, and the first couple of tries and the Gilcrease wouldn't even look at my work because I didn't do flat work.

Little Thunder: I was wondering how your work was received because it was more realistic.

Montgomery: I did a lot more realistic work. And when I first started out, with a name like Montgomery: , people didn't think I was a Native American. Anyway, yeah, it was kind of difficult at times. We got past that.

Little Thunder: So they're making an assumption based on your name.

Montgomery: Yes, a lot of times I would go to an art show, being my first time at this particular art show, wherever, with a name like Montgomery: , and people would say, "They've got another white guy in here?"

Little Thunder: They were also making assumptions [based on] your style, right? 21:00Because it was kind of Western looking?

Montgomery: Yes, it was Western themes and Western-type art. It was kind of a process, getting people to know who I was, that I was Native American. It was a process.

Little Thunder: What was your style like early on? How was it different?

Montgomery: I did a lot of plain background work, just images. Kind of illustrative work. In a sense, I was trying to emulate people like Blackbear Bosin, what they were doing. I didn't put anything in the background, it was 22:00just solid.

Little Thunder: Just white negative space?

Montgomery: Or I did a lot of work on mat board. I just painted the image and left the--

Little Thunder: The background was blank and the foreground was kind of filled in?

Montgomery: With a few rocks in the foreground, and that was it.

Little Thunder: When you were going to shows, hanging out with the other Indian artists, did you get any business tips or any technique [tips]?

Montgomery: No, which is probably my fault. I always tried to project an image 23:00of, "This ain't my first time." I always tried to project that I already had something going on even when I didn't, even when you had to hock something to get to the show. But I always, I don't know, you just had to project that you were halfway successful.

Little Thunder: And experienced. Paladine Roy and Donald Van had a [poetic] realism going with fully developed landscapes. Were you looking at any other 24:00artist's work and thinking, "Oh, I'd like to try that," or, "No, I'm not going to do that"?

Montgomery: I was more interested in the Western art scene than I was the Native American process, and I just stayed with that. Did a lot of oil paintings. I did go through a period where I did a lot of watercolor. And the watercolor just didn't give me the, as Bob McCabe used to say, 'the do' that I wanted. The softness of the edges and that kind of thing. Oil painting--I always came back 25:00to oils. I might try something for a while, but if I didn't like it, I just--oil paintings were my thing, and I just always came back to oils.

Little Thunder: Had you been working with those quite a bit in college?

Montgomery: Yes, as a matter of fact, when I was at Murray, I started working in oils back then. I got introduced to oil paints and I started dabbling in it. When you first start painting in oils, you just kind of have to learn the process, from darks to lights. Acrylic or water color, you have to go from light to dark. I made a lot of mistakes, but I finally got the hang of it. I don't 26:00know if I will ever get the full hang of it, but I'm still learning.

Little Thunder: Going back to that idea of being interested in Western art--of course, the first cowboys were Indian cowboys, really--do you think it was from growing up in a rural environment? Was it just an interest that you had in depicting the Western lifestyle?Montgomery: I don't know it was anything specific that turned me on to doing Western art or anything except just being around horses. I just loved horses.

Little Thunder: You can feel that in your work.

Montgomery: I try to get the muscles right. I see a lot of artists who don't get 27:00musculature right, and if you're a horseman, people can tell. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What was one of the most unexpected experiences you had at a show or with a gallery owner?

Montgomery: I think one of the first art shows that I had or didn't have--Doris introduced me to a lady from Wichita, Kansas, one time. I'm not going to say names or anything, [names of] galleries. But I think she was just getting started in the gallery owner business, too. And there was a process of both of us learning. She asked me to do a one-man show for her and she only gave me one month to get ready for it.

Little Thunder: And you were painting in oils!

Montgomery: Yes! And the show didn't happen. She was slightly perturbed at me, and I was, because a month is not enough time. Anyway, we both learned together.

Little Thunder: So you met your wife Linda in college.

Montgomery: Yes, we met at East Central.

Little Thunder: What kind of role has she played in your career?

Montgomery: Golly. Critic. Supporter. Being there to pat me on the back. Being 29:00there to tell me what I was doing wrong. Just being me for me when I need it. You couldn't ask for somebody better than that to support you. When I say support, I'm talking about more ways than one. Yeah, when you jump into art with both feet, a lot of times it's beans and rice and biscuits and gravy, so yeah, and she was the only one working at times--

Little Thunder: That helps.

Montgomery: She's been there for me, and vice versa, and we're still together.

Little Thunder: You were an early member, I think, of the American Indian and Cowboy Artists Association. . .

Montgomery: I wanted to be a member of the Cowboy Artists Association. I don't know if I'm right or not, but I always thought that was a little bit of a prejudicial situation going there at times. Being a "cowboy artists" association is exactly what that meant.

Little Thunder: One color of cowboy.

Montgomery: Yes, but I still have aspirations. I have one original that was donated by Mrs. Nancy Hughes to the [National] Cowboy [and Western] Heritage Museum. They came and asked if we would be interested in donating, and she asked 31:00me which one I would like to have donated. As a matter of fact, there's a hole in the wall right there.

Little Thunder: I remember in the '80s there was an American Indian Cowboy Artists Association that did the San Dimas show. There was a move on the part of these associations to include Indian artists. But as you say, sometimes it didn't feel like they were treating their Indian artists the same.

Montgomery: I was part of that scene, too, for a couple of years. The San Dimas Native American Art Show. What was it? American Indian and Cowboy Artists Association. A lot of times I wish I had stuck with it. But I got frustrated 32:00early with some things that happened and went on. And a lot of times you don't have the patience to see things through or overlook some situations. And maybe the people that were involved didn't know, and we both make mistakes, so--

Little Thunder: Right. Do you remember how the Indian art landscape changed from the '80s to the '90s?

Montgomery: There was a lot of prejudice going on back then. I remember one time my friends and I went to Crow Fair, Montana, and we took my car and my car broke down in Casper, Wyoming. They told me it would be Monday before they could get it fixed, and we hitchhiked from Casper to Montana, and we spent the weekend there. Hitchhiking up there wasn't bad. Getting out of there was. And I remember standing on the side of the road and some cowboys would come by and try to run you over just because you were Native American. That was not too long after the 34:00Wounded Knee situation [the 1972 occupation of Wounded Knee by activists with the American Indian Movement], and there was a lot animosity there.

Little Thunder: And you were going to Crow Fair just for the powwow?

Montgomery: Yes, we were just going to go to the powwow, and turned out to be an experience.

Little Thunder: In terms of just the popularity of Indian art, here in Oklahoma and regionally, too, the mid-eighties were a good time, when people were really selling--

Montgomery: It was good back then, yeah.

Little Thunder: Then it changed. I'm wondering--

Montgomery: I think everything was good up to about 1984 where the bottom of the 35:00oil well business dropped out. You're making good money, and all of a sudden, boom, the bottom drops out. What do you do? It's kind of like starting all over again.

Little Thunder: Did you change your painting strategies or your business strategies?

Montgomery: No, I've always been kind of a, well, let's put it this way. I've never had a business strategy. I'm one of those guys that you've got to kick his teeth in to get him to--I've never. Maybe I'm just dumb, I don't know.

Little Thunder: Well, you're focused on the paintings.

Montgomery: I just do things a certain way and hopefully that will get me 36:00through. Bob McCabe told me something one time, a long time ago. He said, "Art's going to change, and it always has, but things come around, and only the good artists are going to survive." I've always tried to be a good artist and do things the right way.

Little Thunder: Some of your trademark images are Plains images. How did you first get interested in Plains culture?

Montgomery: Cowboys and Indians. (Laughter) John Wayne. Anthony Quinn playing Native Americans. You know, he wasn't Native American, but what the heck? You grew up watching Native Americans on TV and you knew things weren't great, and 37:00you tried to portray it the right way and tried to tell people that this is the way it was, or how it was and is. I still try to do that. I haven't changed at all in that concern.

Little Thunder: So you're just trying to show segments of Plains Indian life that you wouldn't see [on television]?

Montgomery: Yes. A lot of people ask me why I don't paint my Seminole heritage more or the Eastern Indians more. Because there wasn't any money in it. Bottom 38:00line. It's not that I didn't want to. You had to eat. You had a family to support, and you did what sold. And that was it.

Little Thunder: But you have painted Seminole paintings and Creek paintings. How much of your work do you think has been devoted to those images?

Montgomery: Golly, I probably wouldn't even say ten percent. But a lot of my paintings aren't really Western or Eastern. A lot of times I like to just paint 39:00a portrait showing a Native American face and show the emotion rather than the tribe, tribal history or anything. A lot of people used to say that I paint portraits as well as anyone, but a lot of times, if I couldn't paint the Seminole lifestyle [it's] because now, a lot of people didn't know about the Eastern peoples from the Northeastern seaboard all the way down to the Seminoles in Florida. The only person they associated with was the Cherokee. I hate to say 40:00this, but a lot of people say, "Hey, my grandmother was a Cherokee princess." But when you hear about the Trail of Tears, it wasn't only the Cherokees that went through the Trail of Tears. All of the Eastern seaboard people went through it. We're talking about Choctaws, Chickasaw, Creeks--they just traveled further.

Little Thunder: So you're interested in catching that humanity, rather than something tribally specific? You're a Master Artist of the Five Tribes Museum. How did you feel when you received that title? What did that mean to you?

Montgomery: I was elated. I didn't actually know what "master artist" meant, but 41:00there's no way in the world that I could live up to being a master artist. You can only try. There's a lot of people before me who were associated with being Master Artists of the Five Civilized Tribes and I was included in good company and that was a feather in my hat. I just tried to live up to it, the standards that they set.

Little Thunder: You went to both France and Japan, I read, with exhibits of your work? Is that right?

Montgomery: I didn't go.

Little Thunder: You didn't make that Franco-American trip, either?Montgomery: No, no. As a matter of fact, people never told me that they were going. They just took my work.

Little Thunder: They just took your work?Montgomery: They just took my work. That was good. It's nice to be included.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the most fun places that you've gone with your work? Or most memorable place that you've traveled in this country?

Montgomery: I really enjoyed going out to San Dimas, California. You know what I remember most about that? The size of the strawberries out there. They had the biggest strawberries. They would put on this banquet for the artists and the 43:00patrons and it was a meal to die for, but the thing I remember about it was the strawberries. They had the biggest strawberries, man. It was awesome. I enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts act was passed, and it required artists to provide proof of enrollment or be certified by their tribes as artists with that heritage. Do you remember the impact of that bill on galleries or individual artists?

Montgomery: Being truthful with you, I never gave it much thought because I was already doing what I was doing and I was Native American. Other than having the name Montgomery: --I had to prove myself, not prove myself but prove my 44:00heritage. But, other than that, I never gave it a thought. And I'm sure that people would probably find fault with that, but I never tried to be, how do you say it, politically correct. I just did what I did and let people judge me for my art, and that was it.

Little Thunder: You were one of the five hundred national artists who entered a design for that Trail of Painted Ponies. What design did you paint on your horse?

Montgomery: I tried to paint a paint [horse] with Indian images in the paint. A paint horse has got spots in it, whether it's a white horse with brown spots, or a brown horse with white spots. But within the spots, I tried to incorporate Native American images throughout the horse. It was fun doing it. I enjoyed that.

Little Thunder: In terms of tribal support for the arts now, are you seeing more of that? Do you think we're getting to a point where tribes are actually getting behind their artists more and being more supportive?

Montgomery: I really can't see it. Maybe it's just me, but I've seen more tribes 46:00going through the casino phase than I've actually--

Little Thunder: That's had an impact if they buy art from the artists, but that's not always the case.

Montgomery: I've never had a casino approach me and want me to do a specific mural or anything like that. And I think it would be fun monetary-wise. But then again, I don't know if I would like my paintings hanging in a casino, anyway. I'm a Christian, and I just don't think that would be appropriate for me.

Little Thunder: In 2010, you won Grand Award at Red Earth for your painting "Eagle Dog." We're going to see that in a minute. But I noticed in addition to the kind of realism that characterizes your style, there's this impressionistic eagle in the background, just real sketchy. Is this a direction that you're going to be exploring more?

Montgomery: It was just something that seemed right for that painting. I originally had something entirely different in mind when I started the painting, and it just kind of evolved into a mystic scene in the background--the spiritual aspect of it. And it turned out well.

Little Thunder: Yes, it did. You work in both oils and acrylics, and we've talked about that a little bit. Do you do pastels or charcoals at all for any of your portraits?

Montgomery: Way back when, I dabbled in charcoals, I dabbled in pastels. Like I said, at one time, I dabbled in a little bit of everything, whatever got the goose, so to speak.

Little Thunder: You mentioned the importance of kind of capturing emotion in your paintings. Do you have a story in mind that leads you into that emotion?

Montgomery: I really can't say that it was a particular instance that leads me into doing what I do. I just enjoy capturing--whether it's a small child or an elder--I just like to show emotion in the faces. Native Americans, they always have a spiritual aspect in whatever they do, everything they do. And I try to show that emotion in the things that I do.

Little Thunder: Eyes are a really important part of that. I understand they're hard to paint.

Montgomery: Like they always say, the eyes are the windows to the soul, so yes. 50:00If I don't get the nose right, I've got to get the eyes right. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Does one come before the other? (Laughter)

Montgomery: No. I don't try to put any one aspect before the other. I just try to capture emotions in the facial expressions that I paint.

Little Thunder: Have you ever used family members as models?

Montgomery: Many, many times. As a matter of fact, just about everybody has shown up in one painting or another. So, yes, whether it's my brothers, aunts, uncles, yeah. Just about everybody's been there.

Little Thunder: Do you work from photographs as well?

Montgomery: I do, but reference only. They might give me a particular image that I want to portray, but like I said, it's reference only. Make sure I get everything right.

Little Thunder: No overhead projector?

Montgomery: No, no, no, no, no. To me that's a no-no. I've seen a lot of people that do that, but where's the art involved when you do something like that?

Little Thunder: How about props in your studio? Do you collect things like drums or rattles?

Montgomery: I try to, but I've never been financially sound enough to go buy 52:00artifacts and things like that. A lot of times, I just go buy magazines and books and do a lot of research, what I need.

Little Thunder: In terms of accessing a kind of inter-tribal image, feathers and 53:00staffs and blankets or things, you're choosing things carefully because they have weight [with] a lot of different tribes?

Montgomery: Every aspect of a Native American's life is, not only emotion, but their emotion plays on their spiritual aspect. I try to portray that spiritual aspect in a lot of my paintings, whether it's a spear or whether it's a pipe, or carrying a buffalo robe with all the images of past exploits on the buffalo robe 54:00or different situations. If I don't have it, I'll go and find [what I need] to put into one of my paintings. I'm always looking for different things I can use.

Little Thunder: Research is time-consuming, isn't it?

Montgomery: Yes. A lot of times when I was younger, as a matter of fact, not so long ago, I used to spend a heck of a lot of time drinking beer in beer joints. But you know what my favorite place to be is now? Barnes and Noble. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How do you think your style has changed over the years?

Montgomery: Hopefully for the better. When you first start out, you do [only] 55:00things that you know how to do, one pick at a time, but as you evolve as an artist, you go to different aspects and different periods. You're trying not to change your style, but without knowing it, you do, because of the experience you gain. Refining and honing your skills.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process, beginning with how you get your ideas?

Montgomery: It all starts with the face, believe it or not. It all starts with the face, and trying to see what I can do to surround it, whether it's animal 56:00totems, bears, eagles, wolves. Like I said, the Native American, their spirituality had all of these animal totems. Whether it be a wolf, bear. A lot of times they would try to emulate the images of these animals, the cunning of the wolf. Sometimes a warrior would carry a shield, and he would have a little totem of a kingfisher or an eagle. It all comes down to the spirituality, and 57:00emulating the spirit of that particular animal or bird. A lot of times, I include eagles in my paintings because a lot of Native Americans believed that because the eagle flew so high, he was a messenger to the Great Spirit. I don't think a guy could explain verbally everything that he feels, but hopefully some of my images can capture what I can't explain by word of mouth.

Little Thunder: Right. A picture's worth a thousand words. Looking back on your 58:00career, what was one fork in the road that seems especially meaningful to you now?

Montgomery: When I stopped drinking. I started drinking when I was a senior in college, and a lot of people think that, to put it [bluntly], I was a drunk. I don't know how I survived as an artist all these years, but when I quit drinking, that was a new revelation in my life. It took a stint in the prison 59:00system, but I think today I'm a better guy for it, and also a better artist.

Little Thunder: Was your art something that you could hold on to along with that spirituality?

Montgomery: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, they sent you to different camps in the prison system, and everywhere I went, people knew who I was because of--I hate to say, fame--but as an artist. I went to a camp in Antlers, Oklahoma, and 60:00I stayed there for about seven, eight months, and a lady, the librarian there, knew who I was. She fixed a room up for me complete with television, big table, and said, "This is for you. All you have to do is come in here and paint." Didn't cost me anything. She didn't ask me for anything. She just provided that situation for me, that scenario for me. I couldn't have been more grateful to anybody. That was great.

Little Thunder: How wonderful. What has been one of the highlights of your career?

Montgomery: Winning Grand [Award] at Red Earth. (Laughter) I've had so many nice paintings that I've thought should have got something at Red Earth, but you don't get anything, you know what I mean? And it's not only--[it] just depends on who the judges are, and what they like. There's a couple of times when I thought I had a couple of really, really, super nice pieces, but guess who was the judge? It was a sculptor. And that's the way it goes. It's not that I was completely devoid of winning anything at Red Earth, it's just that I wanted the 62:00Grand. And God blessed me with getting there. That was awesome.

Little Thunder: That was well deserved. What would you tell a young person who wanted to pursue a career in Indian art today?

Montgomery: Don't go! No, I'm just kidding. (Laughter) No, no, no, no. To be truthful, don't force it. Do what you feel. Do everything you can to be the best that you can be. I think that's probably the basic [message]. If it's going to 63:00come, it's going to come. If it ain't, it ain't, and that's about it. Whatever you do, be sincere about it.

Little Thunder: You have to love it to stick with it.

Montgomery: Yes, yes, yes, you've got to. If you didn't love it--I don't know where I would be. Hard times, bad times, just having art there brings peace of 64:00mind. Doesn't make a difference whether you sell it or not, just being able to do it. What can I say? I think I've been blessed.

Little Thunder: Well, we're glad you have stuck with it, Gary.

Montgomery: Me too, me too.

Little Thunder: We're going to take a look at a couple of your paintings. I'd like you to tell us about this painting first. That's something we didn't talk about. Do you title all your paintings?

Montgomery: I do, but I don't remember the title for this one, I did it so long ago. I do remember the image I was trying to portray is the look and emotion of the faces as they were removed from their homeland to Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: And these are Seminole people.

Montgomery: Not knowing what to do. Just totally being kind of lost. I think that kind of says it all right there.

Little Thunder: It does. Even the choice of the short grass [in the picture] as opposed to swamps and--

Montgomery: Alligators.

Little Thunder: Yes. (Laughter) A big change in geography.

Montgomery: As a matter of fact, I was getting ready to do a painting of Seminoles in Florida, and I was going to do a Seminole relaxing with alligator 66:00boots on. You see a lot of magazines with J.B. Hill or whatever boot company, Nakota Boots with alligator boots.

Little Thunder: I think that would be great. I think you need to do that. Would you like to tell us about this painting?

Montgomery: This painting was the painting that won the Grand Award at Red Earth [Indian Arts Festival], 2010. This image is something that--I had something completely different in mind, but it just evolved into what you see. I hate to say this, but when it won the award, it wasn't finished. And the thing about it is, I don't think anybody noticed because everybody was focused on the face and 67:00the upper torso. A lot of times, you go through a painting and you try to do it quickly and spontaneously and there are some times when you know it's missing something, but it doesn't really gel until later. This is one of those paintings. The eagle that you see in the shield didn't come about until I was laying on a bed in a motel in North Carolina--Cherokee, North Carolina. I never 68:00had tried to put an image on the shield, but I couldn't come up with an image. I tried to paint something else on it, and it didn't work. I put turpentine on the rag, dipped the rag in turpentine and tried to wipe it completely off. And I thought I had. I went back and laid down, and this image just popped in my head. It was just something that was meant to be. I think only a Native American probably knows what I'm talking about or an artist knows what I'm talking about. Things that just happen accidentally. I think that made the whole painting.

Little Thunder: It does. It looks so dimensional. The eagle looks like it's 69:00coming through the shield. So are you going to finish it?

Montgomery: Well, it's finished now, but when I entered the competition at Red Earth, it was not finished. And I'll be the first one to tell you that. There was things that I wanted to do to it that I didn't have time for. And there are things in it now that, like I said, that happened accidentally after the fact. But I'm thankful to the judges who saw--I don't know whether it was potential. But thank you, anyway. I think when you first see the painting, people are drawn to the image of the face and the headdress and the eagles, and I'm just thankful 70:00that they didn't see the bottom part of it when they chose it to be the Grand Award winner.

Little Thunder: That's a common experience. A lot of artists can attest to things that weren't finished but went into the gallery or into the show. How about this painting, Gary?

Montgomery: This painting was a painting--it could either be a Sioux or a Cheyenne--but it was a Western Plains tribe, chasing a white buffalo, and what the white buffalo meant to the Plains Indians. There's big medicine. I don't know exactly how you would describe it, but the white buffalo held high esteem to the different American [Indian] Plains tribes. A lot of people asked me why I portrayed him as not actually pursuing the white buffalo. What I tried to 71:00portray was the actual reverence he had for the white buffalo and the spirituality of that beast. What it would mean to him, but he also hated to kill it. That's what I was trying to portray.

Little Thunder: And this one is done also with acrylics, but it's almost like a watercolor--

Montgomery: Yeah, it is done with acrylic, and it was thinned with water and I guess you could call it watercolor.

One of my favorite artists is a Cowboy Artist Association member. He's now deceased. His name was Frank McCarthy, and he don't know it, and never will know it now, but like I said, he was one of my favorite artists. A lot of the images that I portray has to do with horses, and he painted the horse as well as anybody. I think he was a master at horse anatomy, and his work as far as painting a Native American on horseback. I just loved his work. He was probably one of the most influential artists that I've ever--I never got to meet him, but I'm glad he was there. Like I said, this is one of the images that I painted, I'm not going to say to emulate, but that looked like one of the images McCarthy would paint. I know it doesn't come close, but--

Little Thunder: It was inspired by him.

Montgomery: Yes.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you very much, Gary. Thank you for your time.

Montgomery: Thank you. Appreciate it, and appreciate you thinking of me, letting me do this.

Little Thunder: It was an honor.

------- End of interview -------