Oral history interview with Robert Redbird

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is January 20, [2011] and I'm interviewing Robert Redbird for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, which is sponsored by the [Oklahoma] Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're in a conference room at the Anadarko Public Library. Robert, you've been active on the Oklahoma art scene for many years with many honors and awards, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Redbird: I partly grew up as a child in Gotebo, Oklahoma, which is out in the western part of Oklahoma. I grew up with my grandfather. My grandfather and my grandmother raised me and brought me into this world. Naturally I had a mother, [but] what I'm saying is, my grandfather took over because I had epilepsy. I had 1:00seizures and my dad did not like that. I had a very bad dad. He didn't appreciate me. He didn't like me. He was ashamed of me, embarrassed of me. Back in them days, if you had a son like that, people were ashamed of you. I was just one of those boys that had a hard life growing up. But it was my grandma, my dad's mother, who took me as a child and began to raise me until I was like sixteen years old. They raised me in the home at Gotebo. And I tell you what, it was a very amazing thing that I had gone through as a young boy growing up at Gotebo. Farm lifestyle. My grandfather was a fantastic farmer. My dad's mother 2:00was a white lady. She was Caucasian. She was white and my grandfather was a Kiowa Indian, but my grandmother--my dad's mother was white and German. I guess German and white--whatever--Caucasian. She lived right across the street from my grandfather when he was a young man.

Back in those days, 165 acres was allotted to those who wanted to homestead. And my grandfather got 165 acres and got a home. A four square, four-room home. Porch on each side. And Grandma lived right straight across the road where my great-grandpa lived, Herman Zacharias. They were German and white. And time went 3:00by, and my great-grandfather came over to my grandfather and asked him, "What are you going to do with all that land, Johnny?" He said, "I don't know what to do with it." He said, "Why don't you let me farm it?" Well, Grandpa didn't know there was a beautiful woman over there. (Laughter) That was my grandma. So, Grandma helped Grandfather. She helped Grandfather get involved in the farming life and he became a fantastic farmer. And I grew up on that farm as a little boy. I had seizures all the time. I almost died several times when I was a kid because of my seizures.

Little Thunder: They didn't know much about [epilepsy then].

Redbird: They didn't know much on how to [handle] it, but Grandma always took care of me and I came through all that. I grew up. I became a teenager. When I 4:00was eight years old, my grandfather was a very famous man. Monroe Tsatoke was his name.

Little Thunder: Oh, so you had an artistic influence already?Redbird: Oh yeah. Then I had Vernon Lee Tonigah, my uncle. And then I had Lee Tsatoke. And then I had another uncle, George Geionety. All of these guys were very influential artists. My grandpa Monroe Tsatoke was one of the members of the five famous Kiowa Indian Artists back in those days. And it was interesting to me as a kid. I was eight years old.

Little Thunder: Did you draw?

Redbird: Oh, yeah. When I was eight years old, I told my grandfather, Monroe Tsatoke, I told him, "Grandpa, I want to be famous just like you. I want to be 5:00an artist like you." He said, "Well here." He gave me a pencil and a paper and he said, "Get started." Eight years old, I started dabbin' around and watching him, looking this way and looking that way. And you know what? I began to pick it up. When I was sixteen years old, I sold my first piece of artwork to a doctor in Carnegie, Oklahoma. I sold it for ten dollars and I took that ten dollars and I gave it to my grandma, and I said, "Go buy some groceries, Grandma."

These things I did back in those days were fun times. I used to ride behind our wagon. Grandpa had a wagon, a buggy carriage that we went to church every Sunday on. That's kind of the lifestyle I had--a farm life. It was a good life and I never lived with my mom and dad until later, when I became old enough to take 6:00care of myself and be around my own family. But I was already flourishing as an artist. When I was sixteen years old, I began to flourish. I began to be recognized for my artwork.

Little Thunder: Were you using watercolors?

Redbird: I always just used watercolors. Grandpa bought me one of them cheap--that little bitty deal. That's how I got started. It was just flat, those little circles. You get your water, you rub it on there. That's sort of how I did. But I have to say that God had me in his eyes and in the palm of his hand, because even though I had a hard time growing up with epilepsy, seemed like the road of life was already laid out for me as an artist. Because I went to school 7:00after school, college after college to learn how to take care of myself, and if I get married, my wife. I went to college. I went to school.

Little Thunder: Where are some of the places you went to school?

Redbird: Well, I went to the Santa Fe Art Institute in Santa Fe to help further my education. I also, at one time, briefly, was the art director at Santa Fe. But I couldn't stay behind a desk. I decided I didn't want that kind of life, so I resigned and gave them a notice and I left. It was back in the late '60s.

I did a lot of other things. I went to Okmulgee Tech, where I learned skills 8:00that I wanted to exercise in my life such as welding. I can do beautiful metal sculptures, I just don't do them because of my belief. I'm an ordained minister and I do not create any images. The Bible, God's word says, "Thou shall not create any images or any graven images, or any statues or that sort of thing." So even though I was leaning in that direction, I never went that way because first of all, I am an ordained minister. I am a preacher and I don't go that way. I try to do things in a manner in which He wants me to do. And I have so much to be thankful for, and as the thing goes on. My life, I find out that it's a wonderful life and there's a lot of opportunities.

My artwork has taken me all around the world. I've had so many miraculous things happen in my life. I even met Prince Charles in Palm Springs when the late Sonny Bono was the mayor. I designed that year's poster for the US International Open Polo Game tournament, which was back in 1967. That poster went all over. I sold it right there and I did real good. That night at the reception where VIPs go, I was their celebrity guest artist for that big event. I got to shake the man's hand. I was so happy because I was moving. I was moving in the circle of life that was so impressive. Seemed like I was just moving up. I won over all the artists in America back in 1989 or '90. Back in those days, I had won and 10:00whipped every artist in the country. I beat them. I got the best in the show, and I just kept winning. But I'm kind of jumping the gun here.

When I left Mountain View or Gotebo, I went to school at Fort Sill Indian School. That's where my mom and dad put me. There was a lady there, Mr. John Tay Moore was her husband's name. Well, Mrs. Moore had an Indian Art Club that she formed on the campus at Fort Sill Indian School way back when I was just a teenager. All the artists that became so famous after that were a part of that group.

Little Thunder: Who were some of your classmates?

Redbird: Some of those classmates were Doc Tate Nevaquaya. Doc was one of them, and Oscar Howe was another one. There were so many of them. Raymond Hicks was another one, and then myself. David Williams. There were artists who became so famous, and I always wondered about that when I was growing up. What was I going to do and all that? I don't worry about it no more, but back in those days I did because of my seizures. My seizures hindered me a lot. I never had nothing to look forward to, even though I painted and all that stuff, it wasn't my main stream in life.

My main stream in life was to raise a family. I wanted to be like everybody else, but I couldn't because nobody wanted me. I mean, the ladies didn't have anything to do with me, the women, because I had seizures. I never had an opportunity like that and then one day, a miracle happened. I met my wife. She took me as I was and she helped me and nurtured me and encouraged me and stood by me to this day. We celebrated our fifty-first anniversary. We've been together all my life. She took a chance and she loved me and she took care of me and she schooled me and helped me in my life. I'm still with her today. And today, I'm still painting. What I'm trying to do right now is get ready for the 13:00future. I still have a bright future. Everything is just coming up roses for me. I have a magnificent story to tell. A brand new story, dealing in oils. Nobody has ever seen my oil paintings.

Little Thunder: So you're doing oils?

Redbird: I'm going to start a new adventure and this adventure is going to take everybody with me down the road of a beautiful life in oils.

Little Thunder: I want to pick that up again. First, I'd like to ask you when you first started painting with the Indian Club there at Fort Sill, what was your early style like?

Redbird: Flat. Line work. That's flat work. And I was good at it. Everybody was. Doc Tate remained that way all his life. And he was awesome. The flatwork--I 14:00want to say this, that the two-dimensional flatwork styles back in those days existed, and it was good. But what do you do as time goes by and all these things begin to become stagnant? You have to start thinking, "What am I going to do in order to bring this artwork and keep the Native American Indian art alive?"

Little Thunder: Was your subject matter, back then, also more historical, specifically Kiowa?

Redbird: I think my grandpa had a lot to say about that, my grandfather. Because my grandfather was quite a historian. He said, "If you can do anything in preserving our painting, our people, don't you mess around. You do it right." 15:00So, he taught me everything that he knew about our culture, history, stories, legends and all the things that I paint today. And then I had another man, I give him a lot of credit. His name is William Tenedah. [He is my wife's grandfather], and it was through his eyes and his life that I even learned more because he was a holy man, a medicine man. And the stories that I got from him. He says, "Son, I'm not going to leave you no material stuff. I'm not going to leave you no lands, cars or houses or whatever but what I leave you is knowledge. And what I give you is going to take care of you and the reason why 16:00I'm giving it to you is so you can take care of my granddaughter, Joquita." That's my wife, Shirley's sister.

So I honored that and I honored that old man until the day he died. I loved him. I took care of him. He used to live with us. I took care of that old man, Mr. Tenedah. There are so many men in my life that I have to say, "Hey, hold on now, these guys were the ones who stepped in my life when I needed it." I didn't do this by myself. I had help along the way. It was these gentlemen that came into my life, that helped groom me and bring me forth in this art world business, that loved me. I used to have a dad. My dad, his name was Bob McCabe. He was my 17:00dad, my adopted dad.

Little Thunder: Yes, and was he the first art dealer that you cultivated a relationship with [too]?

Redbird: Yeah, it was a funny story there. They had, in Oklahoma City during that year--I forget what time, it was the early years--I was only twenty years old. But there was a man sitting there at the Azalea Arts Festival in the park down in Oklahoma City. And I walked by there, I and my wife. I had paintings in my car. I wanted to go with the idea that I was going to sell my paintings to somebody there because there was a lot of vendors. My dad and Doris were sitting over there and I seen all those paintings that he had. "Oh, that's my man!" I said. (Laughter) So, I went over there and I asked him, "Do you all buy Indian 18:00artwork?" and he said, "Yes, we buy Indian artwork." He said, "Who are you?" I told him, "My name is Robert Redbird: and I'm an artist." He said, "Well Mr. Redbird: , let me see what you got."

I ran all the way back to my car (Laughter), which was several blocks away, and I got my paintings. I ran all the way back to that festival, and I said, "Whew, here they are." And he started looking at them and looking at them. He said, "Say, these are just as good as what I got here. You selling these?" I said, "Yes, sir." "What do you want for all of them?" I said, "I don't know. Whatever you feel like you want to give me for them. If you want to buy them, I'll sell them to you." So he gave me three hundred dollars.

Now, when you're a young, twenty-year-old kid back in them days, three hundred dollars was a lot of money. That was just a power boost in my life. "Oh, I got 19:00to go home and paint." He said, "You go home and you paint me some more and you bring me some more artwork and don't stop until I tell you to." As the years went by, I never heard him say, "Don't bring me no more paintings." He said, "Bring me more. Bring me more." And you know what? My dad, Bob, I loved him just like my own. I loved him just like my own dad. He schooled me. He scolded me. He stood me up and said, "Hey! Wake up! This is what you've got to do."

And a lot of times my dad would get on to me. He's the one that shaped my life for the future. God blessed me with this man when this other man, who was my dad, wouldn't do nothing for me, this man did. And you know what? That's the 20:00thing I can honestly say that really helped me in my life is to be loved by somebody. I'm not talking about make-believe. I'm talking about real love. That would do what he done for me and my family. He's been there for all thirteen of my children. He's been there when they were all born. Every one. And they call him Uncle, but really, he's Grandpa, but these things that Bob has done in my life took me all over the world.

Little Thunder: Did you travel together?

Redbird: I and Dad did everything. We went everywhere. We went all the way to Germany. Dad was the kind of guy that really meant business. He didn't mess around. We went to almost every show there was in America. Dad had a way of doing things and he didn't mess around, like I said.

Little Thunder: A lot of the shows in the West?

Redbird: Oh yeah, we did one of the most popular ones there, the Peppertree. In California. Desert place. But the best show that Dad ever did with me was in Denver, Colorado. He held that big old painting and was dancing all the way to the bank. (Laughter) It was the Colorado Indian Market.

Little Thunder: Did you win an award on that one?

Redbird: Oh yeah, I won the best in the show. I beat everybody in Alaska, Canada, United States and Mexico that had artwork in that show. I won the best of show and I got--what is that? The Grand Award? Big old ribbon about that big. (Laughter) I can remember the guy's eyes. It was called The Glory of a Nation. I 22:00wanted to do something that was powerful. So I did a painting that would stand for something of this nation of ours. We have a beautiful nation and a beautiful country, and this is a powerful country because of men who fought for us over there and over there and over there. My own uncle died in Germany, he died when he was bombed. My mother's brother. My uncle Mac gave his life to help us to keep people away from us like Hitler and all them people. But it was a rough time for everybody back in those days in the '40s, back in 1945 when Pearl 23:00Harbor was bombed. It was a rough time back then, too. But I always try to do things and I always try with my talent, not be selfish and keep it to myself. I never was that way.

All my life I've been a giver. Here and there, here and there because it's not mine to keep. So I give it whenever the cause is needed for me to step in--well, look at this one. (Shows painting) Recently, years back, the Twin Towers was bombed. Exploded and they came down. As a preacher, I looked at that and I said, "This is not right. We have to do something. We have to. We are a great nation." Well, our president stepped in and he said, "We're going to declare war on these 24:00people and this nation." The prophet Samuel says--I'm throwing this in here because it needs to be in here--the prophet Samuel told King Saul, he said, "Hey, what are you doing with this man, your enemy? You fought the battle and you won. What are you doing with the king down here?" The king was on his knees begging for mercy from King Saul. But the prophet, Daniel, told him, he said, "The Lord says to spare nothing." And what he meant by that, he says, "When you declare war on somebody, you go and do it." And he pulled the sword out of the waist of King Saul and he slewed the enemy king, and he said, "Spare nothing."

Today, we are trying to be--we let that nation get away with what they did to 25:00our Twin Towers. To me, I don't like that. I'm speaking openly about that. You might cut it out, you may not want to hear it, but that's just from the artist's standpoint. I feel like we should have done something to that country that did that to our innocent people here at the Twin Towers. A lot of innocent people died. For what? Because of their way of believing? And I just feel like I'm really a part of that because I painted two pictures and gave them to the City of New York at the request, of--at that time, Rudy Giuliani, the mayor of New York City. He came to me, I didn't go to them. He came to me through a guy who was my friend who was the superintendent of these schools down here, Tom Cantrell. Tom came to my house one day and he says, "Robert, I've got a job for 26:00you. A good friend of mine who is the mayor of New York City wants to know if you can help. Do a special painting that will glorify the nation and show that we are a powerful nation, and that we're not going to stand for this." I said, "Well, what does he want?" He said, "This is what Mayor Rudy Giuliani wants." He said, "I want a warrior. An Indian warrior with a war bonnet holding a warrior's lance and directly behind him, I want this bald eagle and behind the bald eagle, I want the Twin Towers in the clouds." The Twin Towers in the clouds, the bald eagle in the clouds and the man himself in the clouds, because this is spiritual. This is our nation coming together and it's a powerful thing. So I 27:00said, "Wow, what a painting that would make!"

So I designed it. I painted it. We went to New York City, took it up there when I got it done, and gave it to them. The Firefighters' Commissioner out of New York City saw the painting. "Well, I've got to have one of them for our firefighters. Would you do me one?" I said, "Sure, I'd be happy to." They didn't know what it would have taken to put that all together and put it down to where it would be awesome. But I did it for him, also. But the only thing that I kind of frowned on was that the Firefighters' Commissioner wanted this picture--his portrait down here at one corner and then the emblem on that firefighter emblem on this other side. So, it was kind of difficult.

Little Thunder: You did that as part of the gift?

Redbird: Yeah, it was a gift, too. So I helped the City of New York raise, I think about $5,000 or $4,500 dollars off of that painting.

Little Thunder: The prints were sold as a fundraiser?

Redbird: Yeah. Everything was sold in Europe. Nothing was sold here and I appreciate those people from Europe doing that for our nation.

Little Thunder: When you start out as an artist, you're more interested in the creative part, and the business side is sometimes tricky. Did you get business tips from other Indian artists periodically?

Redbird: No. I got it from my dad, Bob McCabe. I got everything from Bob. Bob was a man that went out and took those paintings from other artists, Doc Tate's and everybody else's, including mine. And he would go with another guy, his name was Henry Balink. He was a Swedish guy, lived in Santa Fe. Had Balink Studios.

Little Thunder: I recognize that name.

Redbird: Henry was my first contact out west. Dad went to see him and presented my work to him, and he wanted more artwork from me because he was selling them like crazy. Dad--I loved him so much I made him a part of my life that he would share in everything that I did. I gave him my work. I didn't sell him artwork. I gave him artwork. All my life, I have painted magnificent paintings because I loved my dad so much. I said, "Dad, take these. Sell them. You could use the money. I want to help you. You helped me all these years become a famous artist. Now I want to help you back." And he was an old man, my dad. But I loved him so much that I would just do anything for Bob McCabe. That's the way I feel about it.

Little Thunder: I remember when airbrush became the popular medium for artists. You could cover big areas with color, get kind of mist-like effects and mystical [ones]. Do you want to talk about your work with airbrush a bit?

Sure. I want to take credit for that. (Laughter) The reason why I want to take credit for it is because it was--you've got to look back at those times when Indian artwork was beginning to grow stagnant. That flat, two-dimensional style was fading. There came a period of time when everything quieted down. You couldn't hardly sell a flat, two-dimensional Indian-style work back then. And it was very difficult to go out and sell and make a living because times were 31:00moving on. That time has passed. So, we got to do something else. What do we do? I took the airbrush, okay? Nobody was using the airbrush. No one. The only one that introduced me to the airbrush was my son, who was a very good artist in his own right, Gary White Deer. Gary White Deer introduced me. He said, "Dad," he said, "I got something I want to show you. Maybe you can use it." Well, I already learned how to regulate air with a brush because I used to be an auto body repair man back in Dallas, Texas. I used to repair automobiles and I used to spray paint them. What's the difference between an airbrush? It works the same principle.

I said, "Well, I can do that." At that time, all across this land, all across 32:00the nation, you didn't see Native American Indian artists using an airbrush. So I said, "This is what I'm going to do like Grandpa told me to do." My grandpa said, "Do the right thing. Don't mistreat it or abuse it." So, I took the airbrush and I was telling my wife one day, I said, "You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to use this airbrush so that I can bring an object out of nowhere." Boom and there it is. This is the reason why I started using the airbrush, so I can emphasize more the ceremonial spirituality of the thing. To show that, hey, this thing came out from nowhere. Boom, there it is. It's here.

So, the paintings that I do today--I used the airbrush to emphasize that. I 33:00can't deny it, I'm a preacher. So I want to show the spiritualism of everything that I do. When I use these hands, I want to make sure that they are telling the right story. And the only way I can do that is by using the airbrush. The airbrush--I can paint an object coming into view with the airbrush. That's spiritual. Most of our artists throughout this United States are highly spiritual people. Look at Merlin [Little Thunder: ]. Look at what he does. He's one of the most awesome artists that I know. Merlin Little Thunder: . I'm not just saying it because you're sitting there. I'm saying it because I know in my heart what this man has come to, and that's the reason why I got to say, there are a lot of great artists like Merlin that are out there. I never said I was the best, but I think that I'm probably one of the most famous ones around, 34:00that's all I know. Look, I'm a National Hall of Famer--four times. National Halls of Fame. And I honor that in my life. I'm the first Native American ever inducted into the Motion Picture Hall of Fame.

Little Thunder: How did you get into that?

Redbird: Well, I used to live in Scottsdale, Arizona. I had contacts with actors in the entertainment field and I come across a guy named Kevin Costner, okay? He acted in Dances with Wolves. Now, there's a lot of other things there. There's a lot of actors like John Wayne --he was a good friend of mine. John Wayne, Slim Pickens, and Warren Oates--all these guys were in the movies. Now, what I tried to do as an authority on Indian life and culture was to tell them how to speak.

Little Thunder: So you were a cultural consultant?Redbird: Yeah, that's what it was. And here's the thing. A lot of our Hollywood Indians were white people. But when it came to real Indian people, I wanted to put emphasis on that language barrier that they had. They couldn't speak real proper English, so there was a place in there that stands out. If you ever watch the movie Dances With Wolves, look at this guy when he says, "We come far, you and me." Today, we would say, "Look how many years we've been married. We've been married for fifty years." But back in those days if you've been with somebody, [you'd say], "We've come far, you and me." That means, we've been together a long time. So there's a lot of other things I can talk about that are real in the life of Indians, the history part of it. I always wondered and I dreamed about visions that was told 36:00to me. And I used to say, "Boy I wish I could do that." Now I can.

I used to sit there [by] my grandfather and listen to the stories that he told me about this owl. He tells me about animal stories, about the warrior and the wolf. These are the things I record in my paintings. I paint real stuff. I don't just put a wolf in there just to put a wolf in there. I tell it like it is. I'm a historian artist. I got the historian artist award at the Hollywood Indian Stars Awards in Beverly Hills when I was inducted into the Motion Picture Hall of Fame that night. And I got the Lifetime Achievement Award, the Humanitarian Award, Artist of the Year Award, Historian Artist of the Year Award because why? I got those awards from the state of California because I didn't do it to get recognition, I did it to help those handicapped kids.

For eight years I supported their summer program, the same way I did in Scottsdale. For eight years, I supported these kids that Bob Tungland had. I did a lot of fundraising so these kids could have a summer camp. They were handicapped kids, crippled and all this. I asked him, "What are you doing for these kids besides mostly dances once a month?" He said, "Nothing, I can't do anything." I said, "Why don't you take them on field trips?" He said, "We don't have the money." That's when I started thinking, "Okay, if you ain't got no money, let me help you." He said, "Why?" I said, "I'm an artist. I'm a very famous artist. You buy my paintings." I said, "These same paintings that you're buying, I'll produce fifteen to twenty of them and we'll have a show at the Borgada in Scottsdale. All the money that I get from there I'll give it to you 38:00for these kids so they can have a summer program. They can go on tours, trips or whatever." He said, "You'll do that?" and I said, "Sure, I'll do it." And that's how we got started. I think the first year we did $45,000. That was a great start for that first year. The most I ever made for those kids was $56,000 and you know what? People were so generous. I had celebrities. I had Waylon Jennings. I've had Tanya Tucker. I've had people in the entertainment business come down and help me. Governor Fife Symington. I've had Governor Rose Mofford from Arizona--both Arizona governors. I've had people of the staff for the corporation to come and help me. That's how we did it back in those days.

Now I'm kind of getting up in age. Now I'm kind of slowing down, but everything's coming up roses for me. Like I said, I had a heart attack and zip, 39:00zip and here. But you know what? God is so good that he spared me and brought me back. Now, everything--people are so happy. The people who thought I was done for are so delighted that I'm back. And they see good things coming here and they're all behind me. Everybody loves it. So, I just want to pass that on to you, to the people out there. Hey, have hope. And have hope in what you put forth in your beliefs. Believe that it will be done and it shall be done.

Little Thunder: When you were in your twenties, there was this Kiowa cultural revival, the Palmer brothers were putting together the veteran's society that eventually became the Black Leggings ceremonials. I wondered if you could talk 40:00about the influence of Native American church on your artwork?Redbird: Sure. Let me enlighten you about these things because they're real. It's all spiritual. A lot of people don't look at it that way, but I do. And the thing that I want to tell you is that the peyote ceremonials that are being held to this very day are highly spiritual and do work. What God gave our people back in that time--I'm going to tell you a story of how that came about for the Kiowas. Back in the early 1700s, the Kiowa tribe wasn't in Oklahoma. They were from Montana. Back in those days, the Kiowa, they had runners. And these runners would go here and there and they would report back to the chief. These runners ran great 41:00distances. One runner came south and he found this land we call Oklahoma from Colorado. And he told the chief, "I have found this beautiful place. It's not cold. Our people won't die in the winter time. There's plenty of food. Plenty of game. Plenty of everything. This is where we should go."

So they had a meeting, the chief and the sub-chief. They had a meeting. The sub-chief said, "No, this is our land. This is our country. We're going to stay here." But the chief said, "Yes, our people are dying because they're freezing to death. They're dying. We need to go somewhere else." So the chief brought the Kiowas that wanted to come with him. And they separated us--the tribe split. So, 42:00the Kiowas came south. There was this one woman with an old man, her dad, who was in that movement as they came southward. That old man started getting sick. They got somewhere by Colorado Springs, Denver, in that area, as they were journeying south. He said, "I don't think I can go on any longer, daughter." She said, "But I will take you as far as I can, Dad." She brought this man with [her] all the way. They wound up down here by Midland, Texas, south.

Now, as the story goes, our legend tells us that this lady was dying. She was left alone by the people. She [had] dropped back to take care of her dad. As she was laying there dying, she heard a voice. She looked up with dim eyes and she 43:00saw a white buffalo. It was spiritual and it began to speak to her and it told her, "Why are you dying when there was so much abundant life around you? Why are you laying there dying?" Well, she didn't know. "There's nothing to eat here," [she said]. He said, "Get up. Follow me. I'll show you." And he took her and there was an herb down there. "Get that." He told her what to do and he cleaned it off and he said, "Eat it. You eat that and eat as much as you can until you can't eat no more. You will have new strength and new life."

That herb that he gave her is being misused to this day by people who don't know what they're doing and they're disrespecting our ways by doing it. It's called peyote. The peyote button. They think that they can get high on it, but it's not 44:00made for that use. It's made as a medicine for our Indian people. When Grandpa was telling me about the story about the many ways that you can prepare that herb [for] the condition of the sick person--all these things I learned. I observed, I learned. I watched him do it. So, this lady got up and she ate that herb and along with that, while she was doing all that, this spiritual white buffalo, the God that we serve today was, through this white buffalo, giving her songs. Peyote songs, ceremonial songs. He said, "Take this medicine and give it to your people." And to this day, it's still here. So, that's what I wanted to tell you about that.

So, from that time forth, it was a woman who held these meetings. That lady. But when she died and got too old, she turned it over to her brother. And the men began to use that and the men began to run the meetings. There was no women, but even though a man was sitting in there--all these men sitting in there, no women--when they beat that drum and they're singing, "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom," you can hear a woman singing with the man. There's no woman in there, but you can still hear that woman singing when they beat that drum. They're singing these sacred ceremonial songs. They're for healing, and everything is going so good. You see things, good things, not bad things. Good things.

Sometimes Grandpa told me that he could see the things of the dark forces that inhabited the sick person, leave that thing. They leave. He said, "Sometimes I can actually see that." I didn't believe him, but I do now. Let me tell you why I believe it. God gave these people something and we're using it. Now, Grandpa Cornbread had a medicine bag and he called me into his bedroom one day. "Come here, son-in-law, I want to show you something." So, I went into his bedroom. This is how I know that these things do exist and the power of our God Almighty, the Creator, is with us, because when he opened that medicine bag, he said, "Tell me what you see. Look in there." I couldn't believe my eyes because when I 47:00opened it up, that little bag was about that round, but when I looked in that bag, there stood a little white spirit buffalo at the bottom of that bag. He said, "That is my medicine. That is my power. That's what [he] gave me."

So, I've seen things in my life that we artists try our best to bring forth to the people. It's not just making money. That's not what it's all about. That don't have no meaning to me. Money. What means to me is what I can give that's going to help somebody. I'm not trying to get away from the subject here, but 48:00I'm going to tell you what happened. This young man called me from Los Angeles, California. He was on drugs, dope, alcoholic and everything. His life was ruined, but he had sense--good sense. He said, "I went to one of your shows down there in Anaheim. They were showing some Indian artwork down there and I seen this painting and it spoke to me. I looked at it and I couldn't take my eyes from it. It was talking to me." He said, "Don't you know what? I bought that painting. It's hanging in my living room to this day." And he said, "Let me tell you something, I used to be that kind of a person, but when I bought your painting--and it's hanging in my house--I'm not that kind of person no more. See, Jesus Christ delivered me. He came in my life and I cleaned up." That's what I like to hear. That's when I know what I'm doing is the right thing, when 49:00people say, "Hey, look what I bought. I bought a Redbird: spiritual painting."

I don't just paint any paintings. I like to do something for the people when I paint. There's a message in those paintings that's meant just for them. I try to declare that in every piece of artwork I do today. As a preacher and ordained minister, I stand by that. I don't like to just paint for the money. I like to paint to glorify my Father in Heaven and say, "Hey, this belongs to the people." And that's the way I really am. I live that way every day. I'm not trying to build myself up. I'm telling you how I am. That's the way it is.

Little Thunder: I remember when the Southwestern style became popular in the mid-80s and R.C. Gorman was at his peak, but you also had a Southwest phase. Was 50:00Gorman any kind of influence?

Redbird: No. No, nothing. I'm going to tell you a story. A lot of people always get this wrong. They say, "Well, you're doing stuff like Gorman." No. One time I lived in Albuquerque years ago when I was a young man.

Little Thunder: In your twenties or your thirties?

Redbird: It was like in my early thirties. But here's what a lot of people don't understand. I get so mad when they make this statement, "Oh, you're copying R.C. Gorman." I've got news for them. No, I don't copy nobody. When [Gorman] came into my art gallery and sat down and put his alcohol down there and started watching me paint, he was a young man. Nobody knew who R.C. Gorman was back then.

Little Thunder: What gallery was it, Robert?

Redbird: It was just my art studio in Santa Fe. I had a private residence/art studio. And he found out where I was at and he used to come and visit me and 51:00watch me paint. I'm not going to say that he took from me, but I'm pretty sure he did something there, because I did the early blanket figures way before he ever did them. A lot of people say, "Oh you're copying R.C. Gorman." No, I did not copy R.C. Gorman. I don't know where he got his style, but I'm pretty sure where he got it. He got it from me. But I never said nothing to him. I don't claim that. I don't know.

Little Thunder: And artists often influence each other--

Redbird: But he just sat there and watched me paint all the time before he was anybody. One time, after years passed, bam, R.C. Gorman here, R.C. Gorman there. Who is R.C. Gorman? Bam, bam, bam! R.C. Gorman everywhere. He became so famous. More famous than I am. He was all over the place, but I got to hand it to him. He did it. By gosh, he done it and I was so proud of him. He was one of my friends. Some things I didn't like, but it's his life. He can do what he wants 52:00to do. But I really did like old R.C. We did many shows together. We had the same agent out of London, England. And Mr. [John] Collier used to take our paintings and take us around the world.

These are the things that I remember. R.C. Gorman was a show man. I'm not kidding you! Boy, that guy could charm the pants off a woman. I mean just BAM, he could charm the heck out of you! And the women would just go for it. (Laughter) R.C. Gorman was a lady-killer. I used to say, "Why do you do that? Don't do that. They're not interested in you. They're interested in your paintings." (Laughter) But God knows that I love R.C. Gorman. He was alright. I miss him. I miss doing shows with him and traveling all over this country and around the world with him. R.C. Gorman was a real good man, in his own way. 53:00You've got to understand him. I understand him. I learned how to understand that man, understand where he's coming from and what he's trying to do.

Just like every artist in the country. Just like your husband, Merlin. Merlin's got something to say and he's doing a very excellent job of it. He is one of the most dynamic artists alive today, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not just saying that because you're his wife, I'm saying it because this man has the talent and he is awesome! So, that's the thing. There's a lot of people like that in this United States of America. I'm just tooting my horn about everybody because that's the way I feel.

Little Thunder: Robert, you were painting at the time of Jerome Tiger and Woody Crumbo and a lot of artists who've gone on. Do you have any stories you'd like to share?

Redbird: I have all kinds of stories. And they're all, good too! (Laughter) I'll 54:00tell you a story about Woody Crumbo. He was a very dear friend of mine. He was my elder, my senior, but I looked up to that man and I respected him. Woody Crumbo told me one time, he said, "Robert, one of these days you're going to be a very famous artist." I was a young man back then, but he says, "I can see great things coming about." He said, "I'm going to tell you one thing. A word of advice." I said, "What is that?" He said, "When you become famous, and you will, remember what I tell you. Do not do any lithographs, reproductions." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because that's where I made my mistake. A lot of people, when you become so famous and you start reproducing your work, you're going to have a 55:00very difficult time selling that original. Anywhere you go--I don't care." He said, "I can't hardly sell my originals anymore." And he was well up in the years, an elderly gentleman. He said, "That's the advice I'm going to give you. One day when you come into your own and you're a very famous man, don't let nobody out here try to sucker you into making those lithographs. Don't." That's why I never did lithographs.

Little Thunder: But you did do prints.

Redbird: Lithograph prints or whatever? Yes, I did finally, eventually, give in and he was right. I believe that when you reproduce your work, it knocks the sales off from your originals. A lot of people will buy a print for fifty or seventy-five dollars before they'll buy a painting for $1,100. So that's what I found out and he was right. I did just like he told me not to do and I found out 56:00that's right. When you become well known to the point where your life really depends on your artwork and you move to an area that is not art-conscious, then they expect you to give them artwork for nothing. This is what I want to encourage all young artists--don't sell your soul. I did the wrong thing. I didn't listen when I should have and now that I'm a famous artist--I mean, I'm a Hall of Famer four times. I don't have to have [anyone] tell me I'm famous, but the thing is, I don't let that bother me, anymore. I used to really think that being famous was something, but it really isn't. It doesn't have no effect or nothing on my life. It's just that I know where I've been. I've been there and 57:00now I'm back.

Little Thunder: You had a story about Jerome Tiger.

Redbird: Jerome Tiger was a very dear, dear friend of mine. Went to college together. We wound up at Okmulgee Tech, Okmulgee, Oklahoma. Jerome--oh, I loved his work. We were real good friends. I'm not going to say the best of friends, but we were buddies. We were friends. He used to come to my apartment when I was going to college there and he used to sit there and watch me paint. And I used to go to his house and I used to sit there and watch him paint. (Laughter) Next thing I know, I did them slender figures where the wind is flat blowing. Like Jerome Tiger. (Laughter) He said, "What is this? That's my painting!" and I said, "No, it isn't. That's mine. I painted it." And we just laughed. And he would paint like me.

Little Thunder: So you did try to imitate [each other]?Redbird: Yeah, we did imitate each other's. We painted after each other. One day, he went home. That's 58:00the last time I seen him. You know, a lot of people do crazy things they have no business doing. Because he wasn't that kind of man. Russian Roulette with a gun, boom. Ended my friend's life. But at least I can say I knew him as a person. I knew what he was all about because I knew Jerome. I knew him. He was a friend. We used to chum around and go everywhere together in Okmulgee. And that's how I know Jerome Tiger. I know him. I know his work. He was one of the most famous Native American Indian artists of his time.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that.

Redbird: Solomon McCombs. Solomon McCombs. Archie Blackowl, Black Bear Bosin, Woody Crumbo. All of these guys, all gone now. Now I'm the old guy. I was in a 59:00show at Red Earth one year and I walked in the doors and that guy knew me, "Ladies and gentleman, the boss is in the house." (Laughter) I didn't know what it meant back then. "Robert Redbird: ." I guess he meant that I'm a senior now and I'm just an old man now. I don't know. I said, "Oh my. No artwork though. Just me." I was looking at the show, looking at everybody. In fact, Merlin was there. Anyway, it was kind of a funny thing.

Little Thunder: Acrylic and gouache is your preferred medium?Redbird: Well, in the beginning it was just regular tempera watercolor. The very beginning. Then 60:00later on, when I decided to get away from the flat, two-dimensional ceremonial peyote paintings--they're priceless right now. You can't get one from me. And if you do, you've got something.

Little Thunder: I wanted to talk about those [early pieces] because they're so striking. I saw a print of one. There was an image of the buffalo in the clouds, but it was snowy. There was a lot of landscape. You made a choice to move away from that because--?

Redbird: Because of the economy. You've got to remember now, Indian artists had to live by their wit. If you were good, you might make it. But if you were not 61:00good and you tried to make it, it would be very difficult. I know because I thought I was good enough to make it. This is the way I feel about it. When you decide to do something, do it! Whether it be good or bad, do it anyway. Because once it's done, it's been completed. A lot of people don't understand where I come from, but I understand where I'm coming from because I've been there before. There's a time when I used to be a farmer. I did a lot of farm work for farmers out there on the land. I used to drive a tractor. I used to drive a combine. I used to plant seed. I used to do everything--work the cattle. I was a farmer. Ten dollars a day. Back in those times, when I was young, ten dollars a 62:00day was a lot of money. Believe it or not, it was. Twenty-five cents, you could buy a gallon of gas with it!

You can't do it now, but that's where I come from. Those days when I had to work and I got cheap pay. Now I look at it and say I would not dare go out and work for ten dollars a day. But when your babies are little-- All my children are grown up now. They've all got families and are all grown up. They're grown and left the home. I had thirteen children, forty-five grandchildren, ten great-grandchildren and I'm still with the same woman. And you know what? God has really blessed me in that kind of life. Today, I'm still blessed. Today I'm still painting for the people out there. I'm doing the best I can to bring them something wonderful. My goal in life is to go out of this life painting, but 63:00I've got a surprise for the people out there. The rest of my life, this year, I made a resolution that this year I'm going to go and feed the people out there my oils.

It's time before it's too late. Before it's too late, I want the world to see what I can do in oils. They are awesome. I can paint your face and it'll look like you're--I mean, it's so real. So real. That's what I can't hardly wait to do!

Little Thunder: So, what is your creative process like when you get an idea?

Redbird: Let me show you. Let me show you. There is none. Seems like you would say, "Well, how do you do that? How did you get that idea?" I don't have to get no ideas. I'm schooled as an old man in the ways of our people that I know 64:00enough that I can sit down and do anything I want to do. Because I've lived to a ripe old age where I can see things that the youngsters don't see and know things that the youngsters don't know that's trying to be artists. Artists going to and fro, just painting anything. I don't paint that.

Your husband is one of those good artists. He's one of those that does not mess around with make-believe art. He's not a faddist. That man knows what he's doing. That's the way I am. I know what I'm doing and I don't have to just make believe art. I paint the real McCoy. These young guys out there, you know, are painting, but they're doing stuff that has no business being in there. In a 65:00painting, I mean. And they're getting away with it because the people are so--they don't know what they're doing when it comes to buying art, so they just buy whatever they get. "Oh, I like that. That'll look good in my living room." Or, "That'll look good in my bedroom or dining room." So, they go in and buy something that really don't have any meaning. It's just an Indian with all kinds of wishy-washy stuff in there. I don't like to paint like that. I like to paint real good, wholesome, quality, historical stuff.

I did a painting recently about the Kiowa warrior and the red wolf. Now that's a story that is true to our people. To be able to paint stuff like that and bring it about in a work of art that is so beautiful. You've got the spiritual warrior who is supposed to help this Kiowa warrior who is wounded and nurtures him back 66:00to health by submerging him in the water. Later on, when that warrior becomes well and heals up, what happens? The wolf is by his side and they become great cunning warriors and hunters. [These] people went down in history--in the Kiowa history.

See, these things that I paint are real things. I don't make believe art. No, I don't. I don't care for it. I don't approve of it, but then a lot of people are doing it. They just put a mark here--boom, a circle or something and then they sign it. That's not art, to me. That's scribbling. I want to see some real stuff. Joe Beeler is probably one of the greatest artists I know or did know when he was alive. I used to sit there and I used to admire these guys. Not just 67:00Indian artists, but white guys that were really good. And I said, "Oh my God, I don't know how you do that. I wish I could paint like that."

I used to watch Joe Beeler and I used to know these guys when I was young. They're a great inspiration to me in my life. They're the ones that showed me if you want to do something, you do it right. Because when they paint, everything--every little rock and detail and weed and tree and leaf--I mean, they're good. You ever seen cowboy artists? I mean, they are really good, and Joe Beeler was one of the finest. Peter Hurd was another one. All the great artists of that time, when I was a young man coming into my own, I knew these guys. That's why I'm here today. That's why I'm the man that I am today is 68:00because of people like them.

Little Thunder: Do you do a lot of sketching, Robert, to prepare, like your warrior with the red wolf?

Redbird: No. I do not sketch. Everything that I do, I paint. I don't sketch my subject matter. I want to paint a horse and rider, it's here. (Gestures) I don't have to sketch. Too much time. My time is valuable as an artist. I make a living by painting. So I had to do without this. Oh, let me see if I want to do--NO. I don't have time to do that because I'm a famous artist, because people want something. They want it now. I ain't got time to sit there for hours, trying to sketch out a painting. I just take my brush and paints and start painting. That's what experience can do for you. If you don't have to sketch, your idea is 69:00here. (Gestures) Your picture is here. All you got to do is say, "Okay. I'm going to do it." And do it! See, that's the thing I don't do. I don't like to sketch. To answer your question, no. I don't sketch.

Little Thunder: To pick up on your airbrush again, a lot of your iconic pieces have that black outline, but when it's airbrush it becomes dimensional. It makes a shadow.

Redbird: Yea, you don't have that line marking down. The reason why I do that is because everything that I try to do is spiritual. I'm not doing it to box it in. I feel like a painting shouldn't be boxed in. I feel like a painting or subject matter should be loose and free because that's way it is supposed to be. I don't 70:00feel like you should make a circle and then just put a line around that circle to where it just--I don't like that because I'm a spiritual man and everything that I deal with in my life is spiritual. I don't go for that starkness, that directness and stuff in art. I don't like that because I don't want to see a line drawn around your body. I want to see haze and a glow. That's what I want to see. I want to see the aura around you. And when you use an airbrush and do it that way, then it separates, anyway--it's going to separate, anyway. It becomes dimensional.

This is the part that a lot of people don't understand, the artist and why he's painting this way. Maybe this will help shed a light on that because of who I am 71:00and how I want to tell the story. And the art--what life is all about, for not only me, but what I'm trying to portray. These are real things. They're not just make-believe. All the things that I witnessed in my elderly age, well, I could go into that, but I don't think right now is the time to talk about stuff like that.

Little Thunder: Let's talk about your signature. You sign your paintings with the black and white eagle feather. How did that happen?

Redbird: Okay, let me tell you. I used to not use that, but an incident happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma. There was a guy named Robert Redbird: who was painting pictures over there. There was another Robert Redbird: .Little Thunder: What tribe was he?

Redbird: Cherokee. I was very shocked. I went to Santa Fe, New Mexico. Billy 72:00Jean Williams came to my house and he said, "There's a guy in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He's a Cherokee Indian and he's claiming and pretending to be you." I said, "You've got to be kidding." He said, "No. And this man is painting pictures that don't even come close to you." I said, "That's one of the reasons why, I guess, this guy in Santa Fe that carries my artwork in his art gallery at La Posada and I almost got in a fight. We almost got in a scrap because he said, 'Robert, what is going on here? Look at your artwork. It's lousy.' I said, 'Sir, that's not my painting. I don't paint like that. You ought to know better than that.' He said, 'No, that's your painting. It's got your name.' I said, 'That may have my name 73:00on it, but I did not paint that.'" And we almost got in and went Fist City. (Laughter) He later on admitted that the Robert Redbird: that sold that painting to his manager was not me. And then he later on apologized to me. So I know that there's another Robert Redbird: somewhere around Tulsa, Oklahoma area that is painting or trying to paint like me. I just want people to know, "Look out for this guy." That's all.

My signature--the feather. Where it came from was because of that man in Tulsa. I used to just sign Robert Redbird: , but I said, "Well, I'm going to register this and I'm going to add a feather and copyright it." And that's exactly what I did, and to this day, I've never heard nothing. So that's how that came about.

Little Thunder: That solved that problem. (Laughs)

Redbird: Yeah, put an eagle feather in there.

Little Thunder: Humor doesn't seem to play a big role in your work. Even with your decorative images, everything is serious. The subject matter is serious. The figures are usually serious. Any thoughts about that?

Redbird: The reason why I don't make fun with my artwork is because it's not fun. It's a serious business. If you want to be a cartoonist, then you can be a cartoonist and then it's fun. But when you have a story to tell and it reflects on your ancestral background, your culture, your life as a Native American and your beliefs and your culture--the ceremonials that we have--you ain't got no time to be a comedian. You want to do the right thing.

That's the reason why I am a serious artist. I don't play around with my art. 75:00It's really special to me and that's how I look at it, that's the way I feel. You will never see me do a cartoon character. I ain't got time to waste my time with that. See, it's the same way when you're a believer in Jesus Christ. You ain't got time to mess around with this wishy- washy, "I'm going to church Sunday, but next Sunday I'm not going." You want to be lukewarm? No. You'll be right there for Christ Jesus, just like you are in anything that you do.

Just like you are about what you're doing here. You're about what you're doing and you do it good. That's the thing that I try to emphasize. Be a man of precision thinking. Do it right. Don't mess around with this wishy-washy stuff. I don't have time for it. I don't have time for it in my life. I'm getting to be 76:00an old man and my life is too short to play around with my talent. I won't play with it. That's the reason you noticed that. In my work, everything I do is the serious business. I'm not taking the fun or joy out of painting. It's more fun to me to paint something that's real than it is to make believe. So I'd rather do that than do make believe and fool the people out there. Fool them. They're not stupid people out there in this world. So I try to keep my paintings as accurate as I can and to the point.

Little Thunder: Your props in many of images, like pots or a peyote fan, they're very important. Before you start a painting, do you already know what prop is going to go with that particular figure? Do they come to you together as an image?

Redbird: I don't have to think about it. I know. I know what belongs in that 77:00painting. That one particular piece of artwork, "Should I put a pot in there?" "No, you don't need to put a pot in this one." "Should I put an eagle feather fin or a macaw parrot feather fin?" I already know, up here, what that painting looks like. It just hasn't surfaced yet. The reason why I know that is because the good Lord has given me that vision of what I need to do when a person tells me, "I'd like to have this kind of painting." Well, you've got to put your thinking cap on right now and say, "She wants this kind of painting or he wants this kind of painting." You start putting it together and make sure it's right. When you put it together up here and they look at it, "Wow! That's exactly what I wanted." You're on the right track. This is what I like to hear. This is what 78:00I like to see, the happiness in their faces saying, "Oh, I just love it." These are the things that I like to do. I don't like to mess around and just paint any old thing and say, "Here, take it or leave it." No.

Little Thunder: I noticed contrasting designs like in a calico shirt, for example, and the blanket. So it's not just colors, but patterns or designs that combine some of those contrasts.

Redbird: Well, this is make believe. I don't know if they make Indian shirts those colors, using those patterns. (Laughter) But art is art. Like I always tell people, I'm the artist. I have the right to exaggerate from time to time.

(Laughter) It may be a different kind of shirt that's not supposed to be in there, but it's still my shirt and I designed it and created it.

I went to an art show down in Phoenix, Arizona one time and the guy loved my shirt so much that I caught him--what he was doing. He took my design and he began to make shirts that I designed off of my artwork. I looked over there and I couldn't believe what I was looking at. I told my wife, I said, "Look, do you recognize anything over there?" [Gasps] She went like that. "Oh my God, those are your shirts!" I said, "Yes, they are. That man is copying my work and he copied my shirts." I had flower designs, design squares, blocks, everything. And nobody painted like that. Nobody. Nobody made shirts like that. Those were my designs. The guy went as far as copying my designs that I put in my paintings and had those designs put on his fabric and then he made shirts out of it. I 80:00could not believe it! I told him, "Sir, you're infringing on my rights." "I am?" I said, "Yes, you are. Let me show you something."

So I went back to my booth and I come back with a painting. I said, "You see that painting you got that shirt right there?" He said, "Yeah." "Now look at this." (Laughter) Oh, his eyes got big. "Oh my." I said, "You are copying my design and you know what, I can sue the heck out of you for doing that. That's my right, that's my design. Not yours. And you're making shirts that come off of my images, and you're making money off of it? Where's my percentage? Where's my money?"

I said, "I don't do that to you. I don't go around making shirts and copying you, do I?" He said, "No." I said, "Well this is my business. I have a right to make a living and this is how I make my living. And those are my designs you're using. Look at that one over there. Look at that one. Look at how you made them. 81:00They're made exactly like my shirts." He said, "Well, what can I say?"

Little Thunder: Do you think he stopped?

Redbird: He stopped. He stopped. My attorney made sure that he stopped. I took one of his business cards and hooked him up with my attorney. Scared him off. I never did see no more shirts after that. Anywhere. I didn't mean to kill his business. I just didn't like it because he was copying my design. You know? And that's not right. I don't do that to anybody as an artist. I've got my own style. I don't need to copy anybody.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career, what's one of the moments when you were at a fork in the road and you decided to go a particular way?

Redbird: I decided to do that, be an artist, when I was young. I was about in my late twenties, maybe thirties then, early thirties. I was on that tractor out 82:00there, driving that tractor, plowing that field. I was an artist and I told my wife. She said, "What are you doing home so early?" I said, "I just made a decision in my life to do something with my talent. Why do I want to play around with my talent when I'm farming out there? I'm wasting my time farming when my heart's not really in it. So I set that tractor aside, Mom. I'm going to paint full-time and you watch. Things are going to start happening." And I shoved that tractor and farming aside and never did drive a tractor ever since.

I've been painting ever since. I said, "This time it's going to be done different." "What do you mean?" "Well, all the other times I was practicing, fooling around. But no more fooling around. No more pretending. No more just goofing off." I said, "This is going to be my main stream in life. This is how 83:00I'm going to take care of you and my kids. I'm putting all this other stuff--that wishy-washy stuff--aside

and I'm going for it. I'm going to become one of the best artists in America. That's my dream one day." Today, it's realized that I am what I said I was going to become. Why? Because I didn't mess around no more. My days of messing around were over. I pinpointed that spot in my life and said, "That's where I want to be." And that's where I am today.

Little Thunder: If you had to choose one high point of your career, [one] honor or experience, what would that be?

Redbird: Well, there's a lot of them. It's hard to choose. I mean here I am, sitting here as an old man answering your questions and looking back on all the 84:00accounts of my life, which was so miraculous. I have no detail of one place or one thought because it was a glorious trip. Everything that I did, I was the limelight. I was up there in the light. I was a star. I did everything. I was the Man. I used to wear gold jewelry and all that fancy stuff. I was the Man. I even glowed when I walk. This lady took a picture of me. She said, "Oh my god, look at this." I said, "What is it?" I was in Palm Springs, California and it's hot down there. I had on all white. I wore white shoes. I still wear white shoes. Wear white pants, white shirt and turquoise jewelry with gold. I had gold everywhere and I walked out in that sun and that lady said, "Oh my god, I've got 85:00to catch this." She was just a lady taking pictures around Palm Springs and she took a picture of me. And I swear, I glowed in that sunlight. There was an aura, a white aura around me and to me, I thought I looked pretty good. (Laughter) I thought I looked handsome. (Laughs) But anyway, that was one of the most amazing, outstanding things that ever happened to me in my life is to see that. I've never seen that never since. So, you know, I must be failing or something. (Laughter). Fading away--my old age.

Little Thunder: What about one of the low points in your career?

Redbird: My lowest point in my life is when I had open heart surgery. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I thought I was going to die and I did for a moment. Dr. 86:00Randall--I praise the Lord for his life--brought me back that I can paint some more. But that was the lowest part in my life, when I died and I came back from that. The good part about it is what happened after I died. Life goes on. You don't just die and this body dies, but you live on. That's the part that I want to tell everybody. Life goes on and it's beautiful. But, the lowest point in my life is when I died and they had to call my wife and tell her. To see her expression-- (Emotional) Excuse me. To see my wife's expression when the doctors told her that I failed, still brings [tears] to my eyes because I think about my 87:00wife all the time. I love her. She's my bosom buddy, my friend, everything.

That's what I saw. Her. A lot of people may think I'm crazy, but I'm not. I saw my wife's reaction when he told her I died. And she wept and I felt so bad being over there where I was, looking at my wife. I wanted to hold her but I couldn't. That's the reason why I paint the way I paint. This is the reason why God made me the way I am as an artist, as a human, a person. It's because I got a lot to say and a little bit time left to do it.

That's the reason I told Joquita, my wife, I said, "Jo, I ain't got much time left in my life. Not too many years left now. I'm up in age, but what I got left 88:00now, I would like to surprise the world because my work is all over the world." I said, "I would like to surprise them by doing these beautiful oils and go out of this life painting oil paintings." The people will see something they've never seen before in Robert Redbird: art, but they have to see it. Then, they'll know that I'm on my last road, my last mile in this life. I have to complete it. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start very soon to do that. I'm just waiting for the right moment. That moment is not now. I'll know when the time is for me to do that. But yes, that was the hardest thing for me to face.

My subject matter will be the same thing. The only thing is, it'll be more realistic. It will be more alive than ever. That's the part I can promise you. 89:00Watercolors, they're fixed in their place and it's stagnant. They're beautiful, but with oils, you have a spirit that's going to dwell in those paintings that's going to come alive at you. Water-colors are "start, finish, bam, it's done!" Not with oils. Oils, you have the freedom to capture that spirit of that person, how he lives, how he looks and what's in his eyes. To see that expression in their faces, real expression, real people, not watercolor people. That's a whole different story, to go to the heart of that person and say, "Hey, let me do you a picture--let me paint you." You're going to capture the soul of that person. You would see that person. That's the reason why. You'll have to excuse me. I've 90:00got tears in my eyes, but you know what? I just think about stuff.

I think about that road that I was on in my spirit. The road was from here and it was going this way. And it was going up there. (Gestures) And at the end of that road was the biggest, brightest light you could see and in that light was the Creator. Jesus, also, was there. I was walking on that road and that angel came to me when I had my open heart surgery. I thought I died--they said I was gone for a while--I saw that. This I'm sharing with you because it's real stuff. 91:00The angel took me by the hand and said, "Do you see that line going over there?" I said, "Yes ma'am." "Go get in that line." I didn't know why I was going to get in that line. I was already over there on the other side. And I got over that line and this tall, big gentleman--white guy--he was standing there. Had the most beautiful face and smile on his face, and he looked at me and he went like this. (Gestures open arms) And I said, "Are you Jesus?" He said, "No. I'm just a saint just like you are." And he put his arm around me and gave me the biggest hug. And I said, "What is this?" He said, "You see them people? You see this line? We're all going to meet Jesus up there. That's where we're going."

That's what I saw when I had my open heart surgery. That's the reason why I can't live any other way. That's why I have to live the way I live now because I 92:00got something to live for. Before, I didn't have anything to live for, but now I have something to live for. It's not only just the vision that I had, it's because I read my word of God every day. I feed on it. A lot of people say, "You come into the restaurant, but you never eat. You always just drink coffee in the mornings." I said, "Yes, I do. I'm just not eating that food that you're eating. I'm eating this food that God has given me and it's the meat of the word of God." I'm having breakfast. I'm feeding on the word of God. While you eat that natural food, I'm eating that spiritual food. And you know what? That's the way it is. That's the way I am. I can't help it.

I remember back a long time ago when I first got into this artwork that it was just fun. It was just a trip that I was going on and have fun and when you get 93:00famous, you wear fancy clothes and belts and everything. Money in the bank and all that. It wasn't that way at all. It was a serious business that you have to go through. You can't just push it aside and say, "Well, I'm going to--" A lot of guys do that for the money. They do it to whet their appetite as an alcoholic. A lot of our Indian people who become Native American artists find it very easy to dip into the alcohol bucket. To spend their money on drugs, dope and all that stuff and a lot of them are doing it. I'm not going to kid you. There's a lot and they're so good.

I've seen the artist--I'm not going to mention this name. It was one of the finest Southwestern artists out of New Mexico or Arizona. He was good. I used to 94:00hang out with him down in Scottsdale years ago. He lost his wife in an automobile accident. One time I was in a bar in the nightclub in Albuquerque in my drinking days, when I was carousing around. I was sitting there with my back and I was leaning on the bar like that and somebody came and tapped me on the shoulder. Now, let me tell you something, the man that I knew before that was a very handsome young man and he was very famous. More famous than you can shake your stick at. What I saw when I turned around--I said, "Do I know you?" I didn't know him. His face was ugly. Alcohol. I didn't recognize him. It was one of the most famous Indian artists in America standing before me like that, 95:00asking me to buy him a beer--

Little Thunder: Well, thank you, Robert. That's a good warning of what to avoid, for young people coming up.

Redbird: I couldn't help it. Yeah, I couldn't help it. I had to tell that story. But he's an artist. Just like I am. Very famous, too. Very famous.

Little Thunder: Alright, we're looking at one of your pictures. Can you tell us about this one?

Redbird: This one is an original. It's the best watercolor paper. I like to use this paper. [It's] suitable for anything. You can frame it any way you want to. 96:00You don't have to worry about the painting deteriorating and all that stuff. This warrior is a sacred, holy man warrior. He is more or less like representing this warrior that was in battle that I was telling you about. The red wolf.

That one there is depicting that in a symbolic manner. That's what he is, he's a Kiowa holy man. You can see that earring in his ear. That right there is a typical traditional Robert Redbird: , blanket style. But it's also got some, like I said, real sacred stuff to it. Like the red wolves, the legend.

Little Thunder: I'm going to zero in on the red wolves a little bit because those are wonderful designs. [How about] this painting?

Redbird: This painting is called The Spirit of a Nation. It's about a 32 x 40 inch. It's what I was referring to earlier when I was talking about Rudy Giuliani in New York City. This is one of those pieces that would go into that category of historical pieces. It just so happens that we find it here in the gallery. I'm so thankful that we have it because it shows you my blanket style. It shows you this technique that I have. I noticed that throughout my experience as an artist, there's nobody using this technique anywhere in this country. I developed it and a lot of people always ask me, "How did you do that?" "Well, I'm going to tell you how I do it, but I doubt that you'll ever get really to the point where you can do it like this."

What I did is, I got me a bowl of water and I got that aluminum foil and I squashed a big gob of that up into a small ball. I had that basin there with the paint, and I dipped it into the paint. And when you dip, it's crunched up so tight that it's got all kinds of wrinkles and all kinds of stuff in there. It's hard to do. It's very hard to use it, but it's my technique. I did it. I created it and designed it. This was done with a ball of aluminum foil all crushed up. It's dipped in the water and the water is dripped off from that aluminum foil, and what's left in there is put on this on the flat surface. This is laid flat and then I put water on there. That's the technique that I devised.

Little Thunder: That's neat. I'm going to focus in on your signature a little bit. Okay, on to the next one.

Redbird: This is titled, The Corn Maiden. I got this idea living in Albuquerque many years ago, to paint the ladies in their blankets with a kiva [backdrop]. It's more Southwest. I captured the Southwestern traditional ways. The corn represents the harvest time, their going into the fields and working. And this is the blessed water of life that they use. They bless and they pray over this water, so that the crops will grow and this is what that's all about right there. The Southwest contemporary style. The Corn Maiden of the Southwestern tribes. Typical Redbird: style.

Little Thunder: Thank you very much, Robert, for sharing that with us.

Redbird: You're welcome.

------- End of interview -------