Oral history interview with Norma Howard

Litttle Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Litttle Thunder . Today is November 19, 2010, and I am interviewing Norma Howard as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project for the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at the OSU [Library]. We are sitting in Norma's workroom. Norma, your work is really rooted in a sense of place, and it's not just physical place, it's also a place of memory, and a spiritual place. I wonder if you could tell me a little bit about your background and your early childhood.

Howard: Well, when I was little, I went to a country school, just about three miles from here, and I went to school with all my brothers and sisters. I like going to those country schools because it has got that one-on-one [relationship]. Anyway, that is how I got my start. I would go to school, and I would see these little kids taking things to school, and I would wish I would 1:00have it, because I didn't have the things that they did. But I still was a little girl, and I still liked dolls. This one little girl came to school with a little Chatty Cathy, and I always wanted one.

Litttle Thunder: I remember those. (Laughs)

Howard: Oh, and I wanted one so bad. So, what I did was, when I got home, I would draw it, and when I would draw it, it gave me that feeling like I had it. So, that was how I got my start. Not only that, but when I was growing up, I was really shy, and art and drawing was something that I could express myself [with].

Litttle Thunder: So, were you encouraged by your teachers in school? Was your artistic talent encouraged?

Howard: Not all of them. Just one, but that was when I was in fourth grade. Before then, as a matter of fact, I had one teacher, she didn't really care. You 2:00know, if you have a teacher like that, you don't care. So I didn't really show my work too much. I think I was in third grade, we had another teacher, and I was older. I was on the chalkboard, and I was drawing Indians. She got mad at me. She told me, "Norma, what are you doing?" You know, being a little Indian girl in the sixties, we were taught not to look at people in the eye. So I just put my head down, and I just shrugged my shoulders like I didn't know. Then she said, "You aren't supposed to be drawing what you're drawing! You're supposed to be drawing Presidents, and stuff like that." Being a little girl, it kind of confuses you, because when you're at home, your mother and dad, they let you 3:00draw what you want, and then when you go other places, you're restricted. And it kind of confused me, but I thought she knew better, so I listened to her because she was my teacher. It hurt my feelings that I couldn't draw what I wanted. I drew Indians, and tipis, you know, how little kids do. (Laughter)

And that really had an impact on me, when your teachers tell you not to do something. It don't matter what it is you do when you're little, when a teacher, any teacher, tells you not to do something, it has an impact on your life. That really had an impact on me, and for a long time, I didn't draw Indians or stuff like that because I thought it was wrong. As I got older, my mother was wondering why I wasn't drawing anymore, and I never really told her. But she just thought, "Well, she's just growing, and going through different phases, so 4:00I just let her be." And my dad let me be. Then I eventually started drawing again. I eventually put that behind me. But it really had an impact on me, and not in a good way.

Litttle Thunder: It really would. So, basically, you stopped drawing for a little while?Howard: Yes, yes, basically.Litttle Thunder: Do you remember how long?

Howard: No, I don't really remember, but I was drawing since I was five, to when I was in third grade--I think I was like eight. So, between five to eight, I was drawing all the time, and then from eight on, I kind of quit a little bit. Going back, I probably shouldn't have, but [as] an eight-year-old, I mean, it is what it is.

Litttle Thunder: Yes, that's how it impacted you. I read that your mom and dad, both, were very supportive of you-- I wonder if you could tell me a little bit 5:00about that. That's not always a typical experience of any kids who want to be artists. (Laughter)

Howard: Well, when I was growing up, we lived in a small town. At the time, it was no more than 1000 [people], but we didn't have an arts place where I could look. We didn't have books. I really didn't think Indian art existed. And I didn't know [it did] until one time my dad took us to Five Tribes Museum in Muskogee, and I saw that one painting [by] Enoch [Kelly Haney], of [Osceola], he stuck that knife in that [treaty]. And I thought, "God, there is Indian art around." I think I was nine or ten at the time, but before then, I didn't know anything about Indian art exist[ing]. After that, it just sort of opened my 6:00eyes. Even then, even when I was older, I was still drawing [stuff] like John Lennon, and Yoko Ono, and Bugs Bunny, and stuff like that. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: Did you speak your language in your household growing up?

Howard: My mother was fluent in Choctaw, but she can speak some English. She was all right. She had broken English, but she was all right. She did English pretty good. She wrote all right. Now, my dad was raised an orphan, so he had to speak English, and my mother understood. You know, this is the '60s. I'm not about talking about my brothers' and sisters' time, but my time, when I went to school, [my mother] under-stood that we had to speak English. But yet, probably 7:00half the time when I was growing up, we didn't have electricity, so she had to keep us entertained. She would tell us a lot of stories. My mother liked to talk about a lot of animal stories, and stuff like that. That was how I learned Choctaw, a lot of the language and stuff like that, to this day I can understand [it].

Litttle Thunder: She would tell those traditional stories in Choctaw?Howard: Yes, yes. And she would throw English in there, too, because she understood that we understood English more.

Litttle Thunder: Not a lot of people know that the Mississippi Choctaws had to travel to Oklahoma to get allotments, and I [think] that was your grandmother's experience. Is that correct?Howard: Yes, well, actually, my dad's side of the 8:00family came in the 1830s, during that first removal. So they got all the Southern Oklahoma land. My grandma from my mother's side, they came in 1903, the second removal. How they missed the first removal was my grandmother's family, they hid out in the swamps, you know, all those swampy areas [in Mississippi]. They knew the cavalry would not go out there and search for them, so they would have to live out there and survive. That's where I get a lot of my paintings, with the mist and the fog, because that's when they did their roamings and hunting, during that time. Before daylight, they would roam, do their huntings and fishing, and then go back. Not only that, but I love to do that with my 9:00paintings. It gives that kind of mystery to it. But if you knew what was behind that painting, [there's] even more information. . .

Litttle Thunder: Your grandmother lived to be quite old. So, you had a real relationship with her for a number of years.

Howard: Yes, the thing about it, though, she couldn't speak any English. But it's like, when you can't understand someone, you start looking at their actions. So I would always--I would play outside all the time, and she just lived maybe fifty or seventy-five feet from us. It was on a hill and she would be in the back, drawing water, and she would have that big old orange pot and kettle cooking out there. She had a real big old porch in the front. She would 10:00be sitting out there in her rocking chair sometimes. We had a family cemetery behind our house, and she would cut across, and go and pick flowers on the way. And when I was little I would go watch her walking toward the field, and there would be a big old tree, like an oak tree. I would look and look at her, and she would be sitting under it by the fence. I don't know what she was thinking about, but in my mind, when you're a little girl, I was thinking, "I bet she's thinking about her son and her daughter," because they passed away before her. And she would go put flowers on [the base of the tree], and I would always look at her. She was a pretty big influence on my childhood, other than my mother.

Litttle Thunder: And she was a basket maker?

Howard: Yes, she made baskets. She would go out here, over to the iron bridge. 11:00About two and a half miles south of us, there's a river bank, and they would go cut [materials] up, and then bring them home, and split them, and then dyed them with berries and stuff like that.

Litttle Thunder: She was aware of the fact that you loved drawing, I guess. Did you remember showing her drawings?

Howard: No, because she died when I was almost eleven, and my drawings--I don't know, it just never--my mother might have showed her, but I didn't know. As far as I know, she didn't see anything that I did.

Litttle Thunder: I'm really glad you shared that story about how you would draw 12:00the Chatty Cathy, and you felt like you had her in that way. I'm just wondering if you were aware that you had a gift maybe some of the other students didn't have. Were you conscious of that at that age?

Howard: No. See, where I was raised, in Stigler, there was not very many Indians around. So it was like two different worlds for me. When I'd go home, [it] was just everyday Indian life, Choctaw life. My mother would tell a story and all that, and my dad would come in and give us little suckers, and everything was just--it was just a good life. Then when I went to school, it was good, too, but 13:00it was more like, I don't know what word to call it, but when you're having fun, free-style at home, and then you go somewhere else and you've got to sit there. What is that called? There's a word for that?

Litttle Thunder: More regimented--

Howard: Yes, and to a Choctaw, it's not good.

Litttle Thunder: It can stifle creativity.

Howard: And not only that, but when you go--Konima was the name of the school. It was a country school, Konima, and there was a few Indians going there, because there were a lot of communities around. There was a few going there, but when I went to Stigler was when it was rough, because that [Konima] school closed down. That was when they started closing all the country schools, and I 14:00had to go to Stigler in fourth grade. Now, that was rough. I mean, it was rough in those days. It was just me and this other little boy that were in first grade, and then in second grade we got two more boys. I was the only girl. Third grade, it was three other boys and me. And then going to Stigler school, there was like twenty-five [students]. And there was no Indians there, because when that school closed down, most of the Indians went to another school, and I had to go to Stigler. I wanted to go where they went because I had friends, but the logical thing was I just lived three miles from Stigler, so that's where I had to go. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: You mentioned in one of the articles I read that looking through a view finder really helped you on the path towards a more realistic style.

Howard: Oh, View Master.

Litttle Thunder: View Master. I'm sorry.

Howard: Yes. Well, I don't know where we got that, but anyway, we had some, and it was like different countries. And I would lay out in the back, on the ground, and look towards the lights, go like this, and look. (Gestures) And it was like 3D. You know how they look?Litttle Thunder: Little slides, right?

Howard: And I thought, "That is beautiful." I said, You know, when you're little, with imaginations, when you see beauty, you just want to be there, and I wanted to be in that one place. I said, "Oh, I wish I could be [in] that place." And even growing up, if I can't be there, I can draw it, I have that power. To me, that's what art is about because, see, I am not around Indians, hardly. 16:00There's not very many Indians here. I remember when I went, my first Labor Day, [to] Tuskahoma. It was in '76. My brother said, "Yeah, there's this place they gather every year." And I thought, "Wow! I'd like to go." It was over those Sans Bois Mountains, and you go over those other hills, Talihina. (Laughter) I think he was just telling me, but anyway, when I went [to the Choctaw Nation Festival], it was a place that was fun, and somewhere to go, and a lot of Choctaws gather. And after that weekend--it's on Labor Day, after that, I never was the same person, never was the same. It had an impact on me, more than that 17:00teacher did. It had an impact that, "Hey, there are a lot of them that look like me." I look at myself and say, "Hey, I'm not so bad after all!"

Litttle Thunder: And there were some dances. They had some traditional dances?Howard: Yes, we don't have powwow, but it's like social dances.

Litttle Thunder: Was that your first time seeing [Choctaw] social dances at Tuskahoma?

Howard: Yes, first time I seen it.

Litttle Thunder: So, did you see any Indian art there, too?

Howard: No, no. There were not very many Choctaw artists at that time. They were doing beadwork, and those God's Eyes. Remember everybody was doing that in the '70s? (Laughter) They're made with yarn and sticks. Everybody was doing that, 18:00and those dream catchers. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: So, you did your first watercolor at age fifteen?Howard: Yes. That was in '74.

Litttle Thunder: Do you remember the circumstances, and what you painted?

Howard: Well, I have collectors asking me, "Why watercolor? It's the hardest medium." And I said, "Well, the Ben Franklin [stores] we had, that's all they had. So, whatever they had is what I [had.]" You know those little trays, those palettes? I used to buy that, and the poster board. You know those thin ones? Oh! (Laughter) That was what I started with. It was frustrating, because I could 19:00not get my painting to be smooth, because I like doing a lot of sky. And you'd have streaks. You'd have streaks--oh! (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: But you just kept working on watercolors.

Howard: Yes.

Litttle Thunder: Did you ever give them away to family? Before you entered artwork professionally, was your mom hanging them up in the house?

Howard: You know, I tell people that's my first goal. It's not Santa Fe Indian Market, or Red Earth, or Heard Museum, or any of the galleries. I was fifteen, and my first thing I wanted to do was to hang it in the living room. That was my goal. I didn't know all this other stuff, so if you don't know all that stuff, you don't have that kind of goal. I just wanted my mother and dad to hang it in 20:00the living room.

Litttle Thunder: And they did.

Howard: They did.

Litttle Thunder: Many of them. (Laughs)

Howard: Actually, not many because I didn't do many. I wouldn't show them. I would just have it in a little--I would buy those typing papers, you know those? I would draw on that, and throw it away, or put it my little--I had one of those desks, like that (Gestures), and just keep it. I never did take it in to present it to anybody. So, they didn't know what I was doing.

Litttle Thunder: Well, I'm going to move forward a little bit. This art is always a two-person business and I am wondering when and where you met your husband, David.

Howard: Oh. Well, I was, I think, nineteen years old at the time. It was a little bit after my dad passed away. My dad passed away in '77, and he was my 21:00first--what do you call it?

Litttle Thunder: Agent?

Howard: Yes, because I had never had any art show before then, and he went and showed my art at the Reunion Day, up here in Stigler.

Litttle Thunder: Oh, how cool!

Howard: At the time, it wasn't cool, because I was so mad. I was thinking to myself, "If he takes that up there, and then people"--see, these are my real thoughts--"people are going to make fun of it." I was thinking, "Why does he want to humiliate me like that?" And to him, it [wasn't], but at that time, I thought, "Why did he want to do that?" and I said, "No, I don't think he means to do that. I guess he just thinks that I'm good. But that's around our house, 22:00I'm good around my family. But let's just leave it there. We don't have to take it out, and have people look down on it, because it was special and sacred at the house, and let's just leave it there."

But when he took it out there, like I said, the impact of that--I'm going back to my family--[before Dad] passed away, he went to this church, Only Way. It was an Indian church. After he'd gone, you mourn. And with Choctaws, when we mourn for a person, it's forever. Everybody says, "Oh, give it a year and you'll be all right." With us Choctaws, it's forever. And anyways, I wanted to know about this church, what kind of church was it that he liked and went [to]. So, I 23:00started going, and that's when I met David, my husband. He was going there. So that's how we met. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: That's a neat story. I understand, as you were dating, you sort of told him about a certain position you had [about where you were going to live].

Howard: Yes. Well, we were seeing each other, and going to church together, and all that. I think he wanted to take it a little step further, and he said, "How would you like to live together all the time?" Well, see, in those days, when I first went on my date with David, my mother wanted my brother to go, and my brother did not want to go. (Laughter) He's just two years younger than me. He said, "No, I'm not going. I'm not going to go with them." My mother tried to convince him. He didn't want to go so, he didn't go. But anyway, [David] just 24:00sort of asked me, and I knew what he was saying, but I said, "Well, if we do live together and get married"--and I was just embarrassed to even say, married. It was just in that time where things weren't talked about like [that], but I said, "I want to live in Stigler. I don't want to live anywhere else." He said, "Okay. That's good. I'll live in Stigler." And I said, "Remember, now, I don't want to live anywhere else. Stigler's where I want to live." "Okay." (Laughter) So, I've been living in Stigler all my life.

Litttle Thunder: I read that you worked a nine-to-five job for a number of years, and then the company moved to Mexico. When you were working that job, did you occasionally paint on the side?

Howard: Not really, because I had a little boy and when you're away all day working, and there was a lot of time we worked overtime and Saturdays, so, when you get home you spend time with your son. I would take him to parks or somewhere, and buy him Star Wars stuff. That's where I'd spend all my money, on him. But you spend your time with him. I didn't really have time for myself. And at that time, it was just what I wanted to do, because I didn't have much time at home. There was a time where I didn't paint from about '84 to '93. I didn't paint hardly anything. I might have drawn a little bit for him, drew little 26:00cartoon characters and stuff like that. But from '84, about nine--almost ten years I didn't do anything.

Litttle Thunder: Just spent that time with your son. But there was a change when that company folded. What happened?

Howard: Well, actually, I was working at a sewing factory, and they were going to shut down in '93, and this was another time where I was thinking, "What kind of job am I going to have?" I quit school. I just went two months of freshman year [of] high school. And I thought, "Gosh, I don't know what I'm going to do! The sewing factory is my life. I guess I'm just going to stay home, take care of 27:00Daniel, and we're just going to have a hard time, but I don't know what I'm going to do." So I was getting unemployment, and my unemployment was running out, and

I had a dream one night. You know how sometimes you wake up? I was sleeping, and I woke up, and I heard my dad. It was his voice, and he said that, "You need to paint. That's what you're good at. That's what you're meant to be." And when I woke up, I mean, I was sweating and everything, and I thought, "Gosh, that was my dad telling me that!" That was a good dream, because anytime you dream about your family members, it's good. I said, "That was a good dream, but what he said wasn't good, because you can't make money on art." And at that time, I wasn't 28:00going anywhere. I never showed anywhere. My dad was the one that showed my first [painting]. However, I was going to Stigler. We had a Reunion day, and they had a Christmas show, and I would take my work there, but they were selling real cheap, you know. I wasn't selling that good.

Litttle Thunder: And this is prior to the sewing job going away?

Howard: Yes. I did most of my painting when I was off, when I was getting unemployment, and I didn't know what I was going to do, but just stay at home. But then I thought, "Well, I might [be able to] paint." I thought, "If I sell a painting for twenty dollars, I can buy groceries for that week or something." 29:00And my standards never were high.

Litttle Thunder: So, you just kind of started out slowly. Did you wait for another Stigler Days or did you look for a little booth show?

Howard: No, I didn't go anywhere else other than Stigler. Like I said, I wasn't one of these artists that, at that time, just wanted to be out there. I'm an artist, yes. [But] I'm still not like that in some ways.

Litttle Thunder: How did you find out about the Red Earth show?

Howard: Actually, it was my husband--no, wait. We went one year in '93. We went, and I wasn't selling anything. I was just going, to look around, and Paladine 30:00Roy, I liked his work.

Litttle Thunder: It's wonderful.

Howard: Yes, I liked his work because it was realistic, and real Indian-feeling. You can look at a painting and know an Indian did that. And that's what I like. And so, I looked at that, and I thought, "Wow." And he was really friendly and everything, but that was my first going to a show. I was just like a kid in a candy store, because I said, "Gosh! Look at all these Indian artists around here." At that time, I looked around, and there was a part of me--see, I'm a positive person in a way, and I'm the most negative person around. The positive side of me said, "Gosh, I'm just as good as these," and then the negative side 31:00of me said, "I'll never get in a show." So I had both of that in me.

Litttle Thunder: But somehow you decided to go ahead and enter in '98, is that right?

Howard: No, '95. David that next year said, "You ought to try to get in here." I said, "David, they aren't going to want my kind of art here." To make a long story short, I said, "Well, I'll go ahead." And you have to send in those thirty-five millimeter [slides]. I didn't know what that was in those days. So we went to Wal-Mart, and they explained it to us. I got a photograph and just took a picture of my paintings, and then they sent it off. In those days, the deadline was at so and so time. I didn't make it on the deadline, so I called 32:00Red Earth, and I don't know who that person was, but I'd like to thank them. I don't know who that was, but they said, "Well, we'll give you a little time."

As soon as it came in, I mailed it off and sent it to them. It was like about a month and a half later, I went out there and checked the mail, and it said, "Red Earth." And I said, "Oh!" Everything went through my head like--the negative part came in, and I said, "Well, they're going to say you can't get in, and your work isn't good," and all that. I thought, "Well, I don't know. I'm not even going to look at it." And then my curiosity got the best of me. (Laughter) So I said, "Oh, golly! I'm going to look at it anyway." I got it and looked at it. It said, "Congratulations, you've been--" and I jumped up, and I screamed, and I said, "Yay!" I got on the phone, and I called my brother. He was the first one, because he's my biggest--other than my dad--somebody that had my back on 33:00everything. And I called him up, "Really?" [He said,] "You mean that show we went [to]?" In '93, he came with us. It was me, my husband, and my son, and my brother that went. "You mean that Red Earth show? Oh, man! That's good!" Then I called David, and all that. (Laughter) Anyway, then the negative jumped in again, and I said, "What if I go and no one buys my work, like around here?" But I thought, "Well, nobody is going to know. It'll be our little secret. Nobody's going to know. Who's going to tell anybody?" (Laughter) Then David went around Stigler--you know, he works at Wal-Mart--telling everybody and word got to the newspaper office, and then they wanted to interview me. They interviewed me, this and that, and I thought, "Oh no!" (Sigh)

Then we were on our way, and we were going to Red Earth, and they were having a little showing at Philbrook. All Red Earth participants can [go]. I wasn't anyone special, but I thought I was special, because Philbrook wanted me. (Laughter) I mean, it was an open invitation to all Red Earth [artists]. So, anyway, we were going, and our car broke down! It broke down at Muskogee, and I thought, "Well, that was a sign. It was a sign, you go home." And I wasn't even going to go to Red Earth, because right after Philbrook, we were going to Red Earth. It was a sign for me not to go to Red Earth. So, I said, "David this is a sign." And David said, "Ah, you don't know it. It ain't nothing." He said, "I 35:00know I have that receipt [for a car part.] I can get another one." He looked in the glove compartment, and he found it. "I told you I had here!" So he went in there, and we just had $135 to our name. I know that's not much, but we were going to eat on that and everything, and we were going to stay with my sister's mother-in-law.

He found that and he got under the car--this was in June. It was kind of getting hot--and he put it together and all that, and fixed it. And he said, "Go in there, and kick it over," and I went in there, and kicked it over, and it didn't do nothing. He said, "Wait!" and I said, "Oh, I don't know why he's doing this. We ought to just go home. I've got no business over here like that. I don't need to go to Red Earth. Shoot, just go home and relax." And then he said, "Kick it over again," and I kicked it over again, and it started, and "Woo!" He was happy. And I said, "Oh, no!" because I don't like that pressure of let down, you 36:00know what I'm saying?

But anyway, to make a long story short, we went to Red Earth, and that was when I won a first place in watercolor.

Litttle Thunder: So you went to the banquet dinner. Not all the artists go to those, but you went. And what happened?

Howard: Well, when I went to Red Earth, I submitted my paintings and I was looking at other people's art and I said, "No one's doing what I'm doing, everyday life and that kind of style." I thought, "Well, it's kind of different," because everybody was doing like mystical stuff and tipis and things. I'm not saying there's anything wrong against that, but it's just not 37:00what I do.

Mine was different and I knew it, but I thought, "Well, I'm already here, so I might as well do it." And that morning it was really thundering and lightning, and it woke me up. I got up and was thinking, "Well, I'm going to go anyway." I didn't really know any artists there. Anybody that wasn't in Oklahoma Today because that was the only magazine that I had seen. If you were in Oklahoma Today, I knew you. (Laughter) And there was this one magazine I got, it was Benjamin [Harjo], Merlin [Litttle Thunder: ], and I knew Dana Tiger. But anyway, there was this one magazine, and I was going through my books earlier and I saw that magazine. . . .

Litttle Thunder: And you bought it for the art coverage?

Howard: No. Well, my dad was a house painter, and sometimes people would give him books. There was an Indian [issue in] Oklahoma Today and I saw that and I kept it. I just like Indian-- But anyway, I was there and I was thinking, "Oh, there's Benjamin Harjo. He looks like he did in that magazine." He had his little beret hat. I saw Dana Tiger. I didn't see your husband, though, at the time. But anyway, I didn't know anybody. David had to go pick my son up, so he wasn't there. It was just me. I thought, "Gosh! Here I am way out here with all these people, and I'm by myself." And I'm the kind of person that doesn't go anywhere by myself, but I had to that day because Daniel was pitching a game, and his coach was going to take him to Shawnee, and David was supposed to meet them.

I was sitting there, looking at all the artists and I was looking up at that chandelier in that Great Hall, it's called, and I was sitting there and looking, 39:00and I was thinking, "Boy, wouldn't be good if they called my name?" and I thought, "Nah." I shook my head like, "Nah, you don't need to think like that." (Laughter) So, they called the third [place], and when they called the third [place] I said, "Well, there it goes. Well, I'm just here for the donuts anyway." (Laughter) So, I was just sitting there, I didn't know anybody! I didn't know anybody there!

Litttle Thunder: That's hard.

Howard: Yes, but it wasn't hard. The reason why it wasn't hard was because no one knew me anyway, you know what I mean? (Laughter) So, I was just sitting there. If I didn't win, who cares? Nobody knew me, so it's got its good and bad. But anyway, I was sitting there, and then second [place was called], and then first came along. I already was not thinking about first place. I was just looking around, thinking about what I'm going to have for supper. I was looking at the chandelier. Then they said, "First place, Norma Howard: ." It was just 40:00like, surreal. I sat there and I put my hands down like this. (Gestures) And oh, golly! At that time, all those years, all those drawings, that teacher, what she said, me being just a home person--I had never been to Oklahoma City before that day. I don't go far from my home, and being by myself, I just put my hands inside of my legs. Nobody knew me, so nobody was looking at me.

So, that one guy that was sitting next to me, and he thought I was sick or something. It's no joke, I got sick. My heart just fell to my toes and my knees were knocking, and that guy said, "You all right?" and I said, "Yes." And he said, "You need help or anything?" I said, "No. I just won." He said, "Well, 41:00girl, get up there and get your award." I got up and I could not walk. I walked up there, and you know that guy that always wore that cowboy hat and all that jewelry? [David Campbell] He stood there and looked at me and Betty was there, Betty--

Litttle Thunder: Price.

Howard: Yes. I didn't know her at the time, though.

Litttle Thunder: [From] the [Oklahoma] Arts Council.

Howard: Yes. I went up there and got the award, and bent down [to get the medal], and I was crying because me, little hometown girl, went to a show like that and won awards. When I won that first place, it was just too much for me to handle. Then I got to thinking about my family and the hard time they had, and how we came out from nothing, and all that. You have all that built up in you 42:00and I cried. I wish I could go back to that time. I wouldn't have cried. But it was just--I could not hold back.

Litttle Thunder: That's how you felt. I think it's very moving, as you say, to have come up the way you did, and have that experience in school with your art. I thank you for sharing that. Plus, it came with a monetary award, right?

Howard: Yes, that day I took third.

Litttle Thunder: Did you open that envelope right away? (Laughs)

Howard: No, I'm not going to let people see me open any kind of thing like that. No, but when I sat down, people were passing me notes, "Where's your booth at?" And I thought, "Well, this is good." And another one came and another one came.

Litttle Thunder: Because there were collectors sitting in there?

Howard: Yes, and I guess they go all the time, and they knew that I was new.

When I got to my booth--well, first, after that, I called my brother again. I got on the pay phone and I said, "Ted?" and he said, "Yeah." I said, "Guess what? I won first place!" "Oh, really?!" Here's the special part about that--he wanted to know--he had this planned--he wanted to know when was--oh, gosh! I keep crying! (Cries)

Litttle Thunder: It's okay.

Howard: He wanted [to know] what time I was going to get the award because he wanted to play his flute. (Cries) I know it just sounds silly, but he wanted to know what time. At that time, I said, "I think it's going to be around twelve 44:00o'clock." He said, "I wanted to know." So he was playing flute at the time for me, and all my family around here was doing something special for me that I didn't know. And anyway, he said, "Yes, I just got through playing my flute." I said, "Really?" and he said, "Yes," and he said, "It was for you." I thought, "Golly!" I was really happy and everything, but it was good to know that your family backs you up.

Litttle Thunder: What wonderful support, all those thoughts and prayers for you.

You've won a lot of awards since then. (Laughs) You've gone to a lot of other shows. What was it like going to Santa Fe Indian Market for the first time?

Howard: Well, during those times, I really didn't know anything about Santa Fe Indian Market. This one guy, the president of Santa Fe's [Southwest Indian Artist Association] at that time, was Paul Rainbird. He came up to my booth and he wanted me to get in and--

Litttle Thunder: At Red Earth?

Howard: Yes, and it was in '96. This was a year later, though, because the first Red Earth I was telling you about was in '95, and this was in '96. He wanted me to go, and I didn't even know him. I said, "Yeah, that would be good," but it was too late because that was in June, and the Indian Market is in August. So the next year he said, "I want you to go." So I went and got a booth and he said, "Did you fill out for the fellowship?" And I said, "I don't know what that 46:00is." So he sent me that. I filled that out, and won the next year, which was in '98. But it was a real good show. It was a lot of other artists--whoa! There were a lot.

Litttle Thunder: That's kind of amazing because [sometimes] you have to apply several years in a row to get in, but he was waiting for you to apply.

Howard: Yes, yes. He was waiting.

Litttle Thunder: What was the fellowship for? Was it for anything specific?

Howard: Well, it's a recognition of you being an artist, and then if you win the prize, "What are you going to do with the money?" Research and travel to your 47:00homeland or--

Litttle Thunder: What was your proposal for the fellowship?

Howard: I said that I was going to go to Mississippi to do a lot of research and take pictures. I was in Mississippi before, but not as an artist. It was just to go to the World Series [game of] stick ball, and all that.

Litttle Thunder: Oh, so you played? [There are ceremonial games of stickball, and social games of stickball, that women and children play, along with men. The World Series Stickball is a sport at the State Games of Mississippi, and there are Women's Brackets that participate.]

Howard: No, I don't play. (Laughter) I like to watch, though.

Litttle Thunder: Okay. You proposed to go to Mississippi. What was that like?

Howard: It was good. I went there and stood on the Mounds, the Mounds that was there over ten thousand years ago.

Litttle Thunder: It's very emotional, isn't it?

Howard: Yes, once you go there, it's another one of those places you go that you're never the same when you leave. The Choctaws, what we believe

is, when we go, we get a bag, and we take some of the earth, the soil off the Mounds, and when we come back to Oklahoma, we sprinkle it on our front lawn to give us that connection.

Litttle Thunder: So, you started exploring some more Mississippi landscapes after that?Howard: Yes, I do a lot of that. I mean, you can see my paintings, and you see a lot of swampy areas, and women with burden baskets, and fishing 49:00holes around there, and the cotton fields, and the sugar cane fields, and all that landscaping. I use all that, and, of course, Oklahoma, because that's where I'm from.

Litttle Thunder: I was thinking about what I read, that sometimes you'll go and start a painting while you are at [Indian] Market. Not necessarily to put it in the booth, but just because [the atmosphere] is very stimulating.

Howard: It is, it is. The thing about artists--well, you don't even have to be an artist. My sister's like that. She's not an artist. She makes Halloween costumes for her grandkids, and it's that deadline. She'll work all night. It's 50:00that deadline, it gives you that rush. I told my sister, I said, "Now you know what I go through with Indian Market." (Laughter) She said, "I know! I didn't realize that." And it's adrenaline. It's fun. You're in a perfection mood where you want to do well, but you've got a deadline, and it pushes you, and I love it! I love that push. I live off that. (Laughs)

Litttle Thunder: As long as you have someone else to drive you. (Laughter)

Howard: Yes, David's a good driver, by the way.

Litttle Thunder: You got gallery representation in Santa Fe, at the Blue Rain Gallery. You had your first solo show there in 2007. How many paintings did you do for that show? Sometimes that's a big step, to have a solo show.

Howard: I think I had about fifteen, something like that. There were maybe three or four that were kind of small, miniature. But most of them were probably about twelve by sixteen to eighteen by twenty-four images.

Litttle Thunder: That's a lot of work.

Howard: Well, I worked on them because I knew ahead of time what the deadline was. Like I said, I'm good at the deadline. I had that many, but I had plenty of time to work for that.

Litttle Thunder: I mean, I know that Merlin's first gallery show was different from a booth show because I think he was kind of worried, was he really going to 52:00pull it off? With a solo show, it's not like when there are other artists there.

Howard: I know. All the collectors, you know they're there for you. And when they don't come, it's also because of you, too. (Laughter) But Blue Rain, they advertise real good, and they have this quality at their level, so people know-- Except for me. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: No, you fit right in there. I understand you did some illustrations for a book called The Choctaw Road. What was that like, doing illustrations for a book?

Howard: Actually, that painting wasn't done for that image.

Litttle Thunder: So you just did the cover art?Howard: No, on that one, I was just doing my work like I always do. Then the man that bought the original, about a year and a half later, he wanted to know if he could use that original for his book.

Litttle Thunder: It wasn't planned that way, as the cover?Howard: No, it wasn't planned that way. It just so happened the [people in the painting] were walking. It's very rare that I do any work [for illustration], other than that Choctaw book. There are five in the series. That one was the only one that I've done, where you had to read it and then figure out what you're going to do, and how you are going to do it.

Litttle Thunder: What was the name of that book?

Howard: Well, there were five in the series. There was one, Stomach Ache Tree, 54:00The Pashofa Pole. I can't even think of the rest of them. They're children's books.

Litttle Thunder: I know that watercolor is your primary medium. Like you said, it's just notorious for being hard. (Laughs)

Howard: I had to pick the hardest medium. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: Have you ever been tempted to experiment with another medium?

Howard: I did as I got older. I don't know how I got my hands on oil. Well, my dad was a house painter, and sometimes I would paint with his paints. Sometimes people would give him tubes of paint, and I would paint with it. A lot of them were kind of empty, so it just, I don't know, it just didn't--

Litttle Thunder: Appeal? It was probably a good thing, health-wise. (Laughs) Do you use board now, acid-free board, sometimes as well as watercolor paper, or what materials?

Howard: I use Arches watercolor paper. I like Arches because when you paint on it, it's rich, and it soaks it up. It's not like a layer. You know, if you paint over wood furniture, and it's got a varnish on it, but when you paint another paint on it, it sort of peels, and it doesn't soak in. It's like that.

Litttle Thunder: Do you do portraits very much? Or are they mainly landscapes 56:00with full figures?

Howard: Mainly landscapes. It's very rare that I do [a portrait].

Litttle Thunder: I noticed some paintings in one magazine that had a different look for you because they seemed to have no background, bare foreground. It was kind of an interesting look. And it reminded me of Jerome Tiger, some of the more historical painters where they still had that kind of bare ground.

Howard: What painting was it?

Litttle Thunder: I believe I saw it in Oklahoma Today, but I can't remember exactly. I think one of them had some kids eating watermelon. The focus was really on the subject. It worked nicely to focus you on the subjects, and you 57:00didn't get lost in the landscape at all.

Howard: When that happens it's usually that I've got to put a lot of work out. (Laughter) If it was up to me, I would landscape everything, but I'm limited. Like in the gallery I'm in, they want so and so [kind of] painting. So if I put a lot of landscape in, I'm not going to put a lot of paintings in. To me, I think there's nothing better [than landscapes], and I think Merlin thinks the same way. I don't know. I can't speak for him, but for me, I don't think there's anything better than seeing an Indian in a landscape, in their native homeland. There is nothing more sacred or special. They just blend in together. I can look 58:00out here now, look outside, and I know I don't see it, but I can look at some creeks or something, and I can see an Indian family out there, speaking Choctaw. No political thing around them, no influence, nothing corrupted. It's just Indians being Indian, in their feeling and spirit, but being out in public. I think there is nothing more sacred than that, being yourself, no influence. I know me, when I go places, I'll say, "Well, white people are looking at me," or something like that, and you get kind of-- Or you've got to change your ways. Like what I was saying about the school, you are just free-spirited at home, and 59:00you can just be yourself. Then when you go somewhere else, you've got to [change]. That's not good for Indians. It's just not good for Indian spirit. It's like an animal, like an animal lives around, and have their own place to sleep and all that, and be with their babies, or whatever. And then, when they get around someone that don't like animals, they've got to change, or they've got to leave. And that's not natural. That is what I'm talking about [with] Indians, is you've got to change yourself for people. Now though, as I got older, I'm not going to change for nobody.

Litttle Thunder: Good for you. How important is it for you to paint your own tribe?

Howard: It's so important that it's not even funny. Our rich history-- When I was telling you, I was always the kind of person that, even when I was little, even though I wasn't living around Indians, even though I went to school and I was what they call nowadays "bullied," but even through all of that, I was always proud of being an Indian. I mean, I could tell you incidents. I was a teenager, I was fourteen years old--no, fifteen. You know when I was telling you 61:00I started painting? I was so proud of being an Indian, and it was not seen or done around here. I mean, what little few Indian girls [were] around here, they were dying their hair red, some of them were. You know what I'm saying? I never dyed my hair red or anything like that. Actually, I never had it dyed. (Laughs) But anyway, we had a Fourth of July--I told this to Marcus Ammerman, and he almost cried, but it's a true story. We had a Fourth of July, and my dad and me went, and I got into bead work, too. That's when I started doing bead work. And I did those little rounds ones. And I put it around here, (gestures) and I had a pretty green grass blouse. It was pretty. It was a green grass color, and I had 62:00a beadwork necklace. I went and my sister said, "If I was you, I wouldn't wear that." I said, "Why not?" She said, "Everybody's going to make fun of you." And I got to thinking, "Well, they might, but I want to prove her wrong." I said, "No, they're not either." "Yeah, they are. If I was you, I wouldn't wear that." Then my dad didn't say nothing. He was just standing there, and he said, "It looks good." I thought, "Well, see, he thinks it looks good." "Yeah, he would say that," my sister said. "He would say that."

So, anyway, I went and got out, when I got out I heard--there were a few people went, "Woo-woo," like that to me, and I thought, "Oh, that's not good." Then I would go, and they said, "Hey squaw! Where you going?! This isn't a powwow!" Oh, 63:00God! It hurt my feelings. I looked down, and went into the bathroom, and took it off. I shouldn't have done that, but when you're fifteen years old-- I'm not going to put myself down, but at least I did that, [put it on]. But I was telling that one guy, Marcus, and it just broke his heart. And it's true, but that's how proud I am of Choctaws. I'm so proud of them. I mean, I call my family members from Ardmore, Mississippi, and [hear] all those good old stories. We have such rich history that I just don't have any time to paint anything else.

Litttle Thunder: You can really see how much you appreciate the beauty of everyday life in your paintings, but it's usually not life in 2010. What time 64:00period do you often set your paintings in?

Howard: Well, I've been doing some pre-European time, where they're wearing deerskins. Some of them--other people, they don't understand the stickball games. It's not understood. But a lot of mine is turn of the century or in the '50s.

Litttle Thunder: I think that's a wonderful period to document because not a lot of people do that. You paint a lot of women and children. What draws you to that subject?

Howard: Well, I guess because I'm a woman, and I was a child, and I have a child. All children are raised by their mothers, most mothers, and you have that 65:00connection, especially if they stay at home. My mother stayed at home. I pretty much just live my life [like] my mother, what she did. I was telling you earlier that Choctaw women are real strong. We are so strong sometimes that we're stubborn. The Choctaw ways, the men don't discipline the children. My dad never disciplined me. It's the uncle and the mother. But yes, she had a lot of 66:00influence on me. What was your question? Why I do mothers?

Litttle Thunder: Or the importance of women, in terms of Southeastern tribes, especially.

Howard: Yes, I don't know other tribes, but yes, women are really important. The mounds, the Mother Mounds, and the way it was built upon women. The stickball sticks, the tall sticks are the male, and the smaller cup is the women. You 67:00cannot throw a ball without the woman. The ball is the children, and without the children, there's no purpose for the male and female. The ball is the children, and the player is the Creator. So, women have a lot of influence in Choctaw [ways]. We were the first cheerleaders, by the way. (Laughter) In the old days, they would be on the sideline and if there was a good player that came by them, they would switch them. And actually, football and basketball got their rules from us, the stickball.

Litttle Thunder: How about titles, are they very important in your work?

Howard: Not necessarily. Not necessarily. There's times when I do a painting and 68:00I can't think of a title, so I put untitled, and there's times when I do the title before I do the painting.

Litttle Thunder: What is your creative process? From the time that you get the idea?

Howard: Well, I get my ideas--I'll go to one show, and I'll say, "Well, I think I'm going to do two little boys blowgun hunting," or "I'm going to do a little girl picking blackberries in the field." That's how I do it. I do a different show, and I want to kind of spread it around. Then I'll sit there and sometimes I can spend time in the front room, looking outside. I can sit there for hours and not even know it.

Litttle Thunder: You're taking in the landscape?

Howard: Yes. And then, my inspiration is so high, and I'll see it, and when I see it, I'll come in here, and get my papers back here, and all that stuff, and draw it. I do a lot of drawings. There's times when I can't draw anything, and then there's times when it's just magic. I control it, it's just perfect. And sometimes, that's when I get my phone calls. I'll start drawing and painting, and I get to where, "Oh, I've got to cook supper," so I'll quit a little bit, turn my lights off, and cook. Soon as that's done, I'll let the dishes sit awhile, and get back on it. Those are those good paintings. (Laughter) You know when you are going to do a good painting, you just feel it. An artist knows.

Litttle Thunder: I think I read that you sometimes have your drawing and then you fill it in with watercolor. Do you have the whole drawing or do you sort of do like a thumbnail [sketch]?

Howard: Well, [for] people, I do a whole drawing, because if I want to change my mind, the watercolor, you will always see that pencil. So, like sometimes, I want to put a tree there and I'll just do a few lines, I'll make sure it's below the horizon. That's how I'll do it.

Litttle Thunder: And changing your mind is part of that problem solving?

Howard: Yes, but it's very rare that I have an image that I change. Unless my 71:00grandkids are around, they might accidently splatter something, but I may put a tree there or a sun, or a moon, or a bird, or something. (Laughter)

Litttle Thunder: Can you talk a little about your brush strokes [you call] the basket weave?

Howard: Basket weave, yes. Well, I learned that on my own. The thing about watercolor painting, it's--I have art professors say, "Norma, how do you do that?" or "Is that oil?" "No, that's not." I'll be in Blue Rain [Gallery] and you've got these collectors, "No, that's not watercolor. It can't be." I say, "Yes, it is." And they say, "No, it can't be. You've got to use pen and ink." And I said, "No, it's watercolor." But I just learned from--what it is, is 72:00[watercolor can] get muddy. Sometimes I like deep colors, and when you add it on, it gets muddy. So I kind of did it on accident. I was painting, and then I said, "What if I do a lot of light layers? How would that look? It would make it rich and deep, without being muddy." So I did that, and I said, "Hey, this looks good."

See, the Choctaws, we use a lot of diamonds in our images, the baskets, the dress. And the diamond represents the diamond-back rattlesnake. The reason why we like the rattlesnake, the reason why we look up to it, is they mind their business in the woods, and if you mess with them, they'll strike you. We admire that. But anyway, I used [the basket weave] on my painting, and I thought, "That 73:00looks good." Then after that, I started doing layers, and I can't go back to the regular [brushstroke], you just can't do it. I mean, sometimes I'll have a deadline or something. I'll say, "Aw, I don't want to do all this." I kind of want to take the easy way, and the easy way always falls short. Because I don't know about other people, if they see it, but I see it, and I'm the one that counts.

Litttle Thunder: Right. I think I remember you saying that if it's just a landscape, it falls short, too. You're not interested in just doing a landscape.

Howard: No, I love landscape, and I love Indians, but I would rather leave the landscape out, and keep the Indians, than to do a landscape and leave the 74:00Indians out. It just don't make sense to me. I mean, people bring life to nature, and without nature, the woods and the trees and that stuff, without life around it, it [has] no purpose. Indians not being in the woods and walking around, there's no purpose for us, if we don't walk in the woods. I know nowadays people don't have time to do this and that, and go in the woods. But with an Indian, a Choctaw--I'm speaking for Choctaw--we have to have woods. We have to go in the woods, and refresh our thoughts, be around a place where nobody looks down on you, or looks up at you, or criticizes you, or thanks you, 75:00or anything. It's just you and the woods, just that, is what I like to do.

Litttle Thunder: Is there any subject you don't paint? That's kind of off limits?

Howard: Well we have this--it's a story. Well, I'm not going to say story--but it's called Kowi Anukasha. They're Little Peoples, they're kind of special to the Choctaws, and I think to other tribes. That, I won't paint. Another thing I won't paint is--well there are two of them, but one of them is, there's this school up there at the Choctaw Nation called Wheelock [Academy]. The lady from there, she wanted me to paint the building, that boarding school, and I said, "I 76:00can't do that." She thought it was going to be hard for me, because I said I couldn't do it. "Oh, I'm sorry." She thought I couldn't do it. "Well, you can do it small." And I said, "No, it's not that. The reason why I won't do it is because in the old days, the little Choctaw kids ran from that place. They have a grave by there. If you go by there, you can see the little graves, little Indian kids, Choctaw kids that were running from that place. I can't paint anything that little Indian kids ran from. It's just something that I cannot do." I don't know if she understood me, but that was what I was feeling. No one 77:00told me that I could do it, and no one told me I couldn't.

Then, there was this one guy. I was at a show and he was from Union High School, and their mascot is Redskins. I didn't know him at the time, he was the superintendent. He came up to my booth, and he said, "Yes, we've got some money in, and we're doing this thing. We chose you because you like to do children." He said, "So, we chose you, and we had a meeting, and I come to represent Union, and we want you to do a mural or something. Or if this is what you do, do 78:00watercolor, do something for the school. We want to bring attention to Native Americans," he said. And I thought, "Well, that's nice." I didn't know him, [and] I said, "Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I've got time." Then he kind of choked up, and he said, "We're from Union," and I thought, "Union" I said, "Oh, Union. Oh, okay." [Union is a public school district in Tulsa, whose high school football team calls itself the Union Redskins. Despite long-standing protests from the American Indian community, and others, regarding the team's name, the Union School Board thus far has refused to change it.] And he just sort of knew [that] I knew. And I thought, "No, there isn't no way I'm going to do that." And I said, "Well, I don't know about that. I know everything that's going on, and your mascot--" I didn't even want to say [the name of the team]. I'm afraid I'm 79:00not going to do it." He said, "Well, I understand. Things just have to turn around." And I thought, "If you're going to turn things around then change the name."

Also, commission work, I don't do commission work hardly because a person has their vision of what they would like and I'm sure it's a good vision, but I cannot see in their mind. So, that's why I won't do that.

Litttle Thunder: Right. Merlin feels the same way. Well, we are going to take a look at your paintings here in a moment. Is there anything you'd like to add or anything we should have talked about that we didn't?

Howard: Nothing other than I'm self-taught. I guess that was obvious, huh? (Laughter) I'm self-taught and I love doing miniatures. My maiden name is Norma 80:00Williams. I know my dad would have been proud. (Laughter) Everybody thinks my name is Howard: , but that's my married name. I'm really proud of my Williams name. Matter of fact, I've got some of my old paintings that's Williams.

Litttle Thunder: Oh do you? Was this prior to Red Earth?

Howard: Oh, yes, yes. Well, I got married in '79. So, after that, it started with Howard: . Prior to '79, like I was telling you about my dad took my paintings at the reunion day. They were all Williams.

Litttle Thunder: So, if anyone has a Norma Williams painting they should hold onto it. (Laughter) Do you want to talk about this picture?

Howard: Yes, this painting is four by six. It's a watercolor painting. The 81:00people in the images are doing the Turtle Dance. The dresses are traditional Choctaw dresses with regular bright-colored clothing, with the apron. And the men are wearing their traditional black pants with black hats and colorful shirts with diamonds on it. They're under an oak tree, and you can see the people in the back, watching the turtle dance.

Litttle Thunder: That's beautiful. Can you tell us about these paintings?

Howard: Yes, this is my mother and dad. My dad, I [worked from] a picture. He's got a few pictures here and there, but this picture was so much of who he is. He 82:00likes taking pictures, and he always wore a ball cap. He didn't go anywhere without his ball cap. He welcomes the picture. He always wore a t-shirt because he was a house painter, so he didn't have to dress up or anything like that. And this other one's my mother. That was actually in a group picture. It was Thanksgiving Day--you can see where she's wearing her apron. She doesn't like taking pictures. It's very rare that you have a picture of her posing. She's always either turning her face, or its blurry or something because she's moving.

This was taken as a group picture. She didn't like taking pictures. She's got her arms folded, like that. (Laughter) The wind was blowing, so her hair was really bushy at that time. That was just so much of who she is, and that's why I 83:00used that image for her. Actually, in the original photograph, she was probably about an inch and a half tall. See, when I do some of my family members, I don't ever blow it up or anything [on a projector]. The images are not so clear, and I just like to do it as [I] see it.

Litttle Thunder: This is [another] painting called The Crossroads?Howard: At the Crossroads. This is a watercolor painting. I titled it At the Crossroads because you can see the four roads, where they meet. This is south of Mississippi. In the background, it's sugarcane. The people, the two women, and the men there, 84:00they're parked. And it's after a long day and they're talking. You can see the tree on the left, and there's an old, dead tree to the far left. You can see parts of it. This painting I did in 2002. When you look at it, you see two women and a man, and two men in a wagon and a team, but what I tried to capture was them having a long day. You can almost smell the air, the moisture in the air, 85:00and you can hear them speaking Choctaw to each other. And it's just such a quiet day, a long day, but they're done, and they're just talking around. You can see the sugar cane in the back, and the tree with the Spanish moss. When I did that painting, it kind of gave me that View Master feeling because of the shadows on the bottom.

I looked at it, and I said, "I want to be there. I want to be in that painting." I won Best of Show with that at the Tulsa Indian Arts Festival. I sat it down, and I had it in the front room with lights on it, and I was sitting there looking at it. I said, "David, do you know what? I did a lot of paintings, but [there's] something about that painting I really like." And David said, "Well, 86:00why don't you keep it?" And I said, "No, I'm going to sell it," and all that. "Yeah, you're going to sell it, then you're going to spend the money, and you're going to wish you didn't." And I thought, "You know what? I can keep it." And sure enough, I kept it. So I've got it in my living room, and I think to this day, that's my favorite painting. It's not that big, but there's just something about it, it just kind of relaxes me, and brings me to that place where things were simple, and people were--just a time where they were all speaking Choctaw. It's just something about that I just love.

Litttle Thunder: I love it, too. It's just gorgeous. Well, thank you very much, Norma.

Howard: You're welcome.

Litttle Thunder: [I almost forgot my] question about you [being asked to give a lecture] at Southeastern [Oklahoma University] in Durant.

Howard: When I went to Southeastern, everyone was into that Veterans' Day, and it was close to Veterans' Day, and [they were] talking about September 11, and how that [felt]. And I said, "You know how in this day and time, it's close to Veterans' Day, and then September 11 happened? You know how the families in the United States, how they feel, how someone would attack the United States on their own soil?" I said, "That's how we feel." I said, "I wasn't living at that time, but that's how deep it goes. I'm standing here in front of you today, and that's how I feel. And the thing about it is, these were done to children, to babies, to pregnant women that had to leave [during Indian Removal in the Southeast.] Nobody was spared, and it was wintertime. I don't even think people treat animals that bad. This could have waited. Why in the wintertime? I don't know. Why couldn't it wait? But this was done at that time, and I hold that very--it's very deep within me. My ancestors and family before me, that is our September 11. But it was done to babies, and to women that was pregnant, the elderly. You don't see that in your history books, you don't see that on TV, you don't see any of that." And I said, "We're the skeleton in America's closet."

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