Oral history interview with Gina Gray

Little Thunder: Today is October 19, 2010. My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. I am here interviewing Gina Gray for our Oklahoma Native Artists project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University [Library]. We're here in Gina's home at Pawhuska, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with me, Gina. You've been a really prolific and innovative artist over the years, and you're an Osage tribal member. Let's start with where you live here on the Osage Reservation.

Gray: Yes, we're located on the east side of Pawhuska, just off the highway here. The house was purchased by my son. He's been overseas for the last ten years, and we ran into a friend of ours that was moving. He was looking for 1:00someone to buy the house, so it was perfect timing. It was meant to be. And we're just about a half a block from our dance arbor [where] we have our traditional dances. In June, we have Gray Horse, and then Hominy, and then Pawhuska dances, and we're usually at the end of June. So we've got it set up out here, we have arbors where our dancers can get dressed, and then we have a cook arbor, and then we have a dining arbor. So when our guests come, they can come and eat, and just wait for the dances to start, [or] come afterwards. You get to see family that you haven't seen in years and years, and it's just a good 2:00time for everybody.

Little Thunder: Great place to be rooted in as an artist.

Gray: Yes.

Little Thunder: Can you tell me a little bit about your background, your folks, where you were born and attended school?

Gray: Well I was born here in Pawhuska--all of my sisters and brothers. I'm the fifth out of seven children. Mom and Dad left here in the early sixties, and we moved to Denver, Colorado. We grew up there, and then we would come back here. Spend summers, and of course, go to the dances and things, and visit family, and learn about our culture. So we had the best of both worlds. And starting in the early seventies, we got so lonesome for home. Mom and Dad decided it's probably 3:00time to take the family back to Pawhuska. That's when Dad got the idea to start the White Hair Trading Post, but before they left to come here, I had already left to go to the Institute of American Indian Arts.

Little Thunder: How old were you?

Gray: I was fifteen. At that time, it was a high school, and two-year post-graduate school. It hadn't turned into a college yet, so I went there my junior year.

Little Thunder: Was it your idea, or did your folks suggest it?

Gray: Well, I was with a program with the Denver Indian Community Center, and they had a teacher there--he was a retired commercial artist--and he saw my interest in art. I was about ten or eleven at that time, and it got to the point 4:00where I wanted more instruction, and he was willing to teach me on Saturdays. They would come and get me, or my Dad would come take me over there. [My teacher] had a strong relationship with the Southwest, and he's the one that told me about the Institute of American Indian Arts. So when I was about thirteen, I had been working in [his] studio. Before I even actually got to do a painting, Mr. Poole--his name was Kenneth Poole--would have me clean all his brushes. He had these beautiful pottery bowls, and he had windows all around the top of his studio. So I had to clean all those brushes.

Then, I had to learn all the colors of the oils, you know. At that time I could barely pronounce them. Azure and crimson, cobalt blue. (Laughs) He gave me a 5:00little history about each color. Even when I didn't think I was being taught, I was being taught, [through] conversations he would constantly have with me while I was cleaning those brushes. He was older. He was retired, so he lived with his mother, and she had to be close to a hundred [years old]. She would cook us lunch, or fix us a little lunch, and we would stop what we were doing, we'd get all cleaned up and then we'd go in there, and she'd have the table set for us. And I thought it was so cool, because I came from such a big family, and to be treated special, I was just so excited. I thought it was so cool that they had a separate little plate with a piece of bread on it. (Laughter) We'd get done, and 6:00I'd work a little bit longer, and it'd be time for me to go home. But those were wonderful memories of my early training.

He also introduced me to the Red Cloud Indian Art Show, and we got the papers. I was so excited. I had been working on this oil painting of a Thunder: Bird-- I'll never forget it--it took forever for those paints to dry. Now there's a medium that you can use, it's a quick dryer, but back then, there wasn't such a thing. So it just took forever, and it said on there that you had be fifteen to enter this competition. He just went, "They're not gonna know." (Laughs) So I sent it in, and I sent a little pen-and-ink drawing as well. We sent it up 7:00there, and time went by, and Mr. Pool got a letter, and I got a letter. It said the museum had sent me a check, and they had purchased my piece for the Red Cloud Museum. The little ink drawing took a place in pen-and-ink. And they said there was a gallery in Omaha that was interested in my work, and was it okay if they gave them my information. Of course Mr. Poole and I [were] just elated. We were like, "Yeah!"

Little Thunder: Because you were fourteen.

Gray: I was thirteen at the time. [Mr. Poole] says, "Well, you really don't have 8:00any work, you just have those two pieces. Why don't I do this? I'm going to write them a letter, and tell them that you're just a student, and that we're trying to get you into the Institute of American Indian Arts, but throughout the next few years, if you're still interested, we'll try and contact you again." But I never did. At that time, communication was where it was. It was not like today, with Internet and texting, and all this technology. So then, there was trying to talk Mom and Dad into letting me go to IAIA. At the time, I was going to Arvada Senior High School in Colorado, and I had a teacher there that went to 9:00school with Ken Poole. So they were about the same age, but she was still teaching there, and she was getting some kind of funding for her program. But when I came into the program, she was so excited. She had this young woman that could really draw and paint. Jefferson County always had this yearly big art show, and her students usually won. So when she found out I wanted to go to the Institute of American Indian Arts, I asked her if she would write a recommendation and she said yes.

Well, we got Mom and Dad on board, reluctantly. They didn't really want me to go 10:00because we were a close family, but [Mr. Poole] told them, "This is a big opportunity for her, and I really would hate to see her miss it. It's a special school just for Indians, and they're from all over the country. She'll be working with professional artists, some Indian, some not." He really poured it on, but they got on board with it. But come to find out, we got a letter, and it was from the administration at IAIA. They said, "We're a little puzzled about somebody you asked to recommend you." And I said, "Really?" And we were reading the letter together, and [Mr. Poole] did a little investigation, because he knew that teacher. And he called the man [from the Institute] on the phone, and he said, "Could you read that letter to me?" And he said, "Well, that is not true. 11:00I'm going to tell you this is one of the most talented young Indian artists that I've taught, and I've been teaching at the Denver Indian Center for quite some time." So he confronted her and said, "Could you please write a real letter? Don't hurt this young girl's dream."

Little Thunder: So the letter of recommendation was not a recommendation?

Gray: It said I had no talent, this [was] really not something that would be beneficial to me, and to them, it would be a waste of time. I was just crushed. [Mr. Poole] got it all straightened out, to where I could go, and my Dad drove me down there. It was a quiet ride all the way to Santa Fe. But, in time, [my 12:00parents] realized that it was the best place for me, and I was like a dry sponge when I was there. I couldn't believe a school was just dedicated to art. You had to take your academic classes, but there was really no pressure for it. They were interested in teaching you some art. I also got interested in performing arts, and I was in the modern dance classes they had.

Little Thunder: Taught by Rosalie Jones?

Gray: Rosalie had left then. It was [another man named Juan]. That was the only teacher I had at that time. [Rosalie] had just left and I was in the choir. It was called the Iyapaha Singers, (laughs) and so I worked with Eddie Wapp in that program

Little Thunder: [Did you perform] in Washington D.C. as part of that?

Gray: No, they stopped doing that by the time I got there. That was all the sixties bunch. This was the early seventies, so yeah, we would pour over those pictures and go, "Wow, maybe one of these days we'll get to go." I don't know what happened, I wasn't there at that time, but they picked some students to go to New York City for a special program for a couple of weeks, to work with the theater company there. I think it was because that semester I chose not to take any performing arts classes. I was concentrating more on painting, and drawing, and printmaking. They went up there, and I was so envious. They just sounded like they had a wonderful time. So that was my first introduction to hearing 14:00about the Native American Theater Ensemble directed by Hanay Geiogamah [a Kiowa/Delaware from Oklahoma, who was a seminal figure in U.S. Native theater movement].

Little Thunder: Was that the company they went to work with?

Gray: Yes. And after that, I met Allan Houser. I used to spend a lot of time sitting, watching him sculpt, not so much talking about art, just talking about anything.

Little Thunder: Did you take classes from him too?

Gray: No, I didn't. I wish I would have, but I wasn't a sculptor. I did take ceramic classes and jewelry making classes, but I didn't take any sculpture classes. But I did know him quite well, and spent a lot of time in the studio, because it was in between--there was the printmaking studio, the painting studio, then sculpture, and jewelry, and ceramics. So I'd start off in 15:00printmaking, and then I'd make my way to my other classes (laughter), but I was stopping along the way, visiting with everybody, and seeing what [Allan Houser] was working on. He was a wonderful man, just full of knowledge. I would show him my paintings, and he would give me little critiques, something I'll always remember. My printmaking teacher made quite an impact on me, Seymour Tubis.

Little Thunder: The same [teacher] Ben Harjo had?

Gray: Yes. He was very--well, you learned about his humor, and he was hysterical. The way he taught, he'd let you sit there and think that you got it, and you had it, but then he'd come back and just tell you, "No, you didn't do this right. You didn't do that right. You needed to take your time, you're going 16:00too fast." And so I learned some patience with him. He was very encouraging all of the time. I would even spend extra hours after school, and go and work in the studio, just to try and get it right, because you're trying to get the perfect print. We did etchings, and that's where I first learned to do monotypes with leaves. I entered a piece for the Heard [Museum] show, sold my piece, and took an award there.

Little Thunder: Was this like your first year?

Gray: Yes, that was my first year. Then he turned me on to aqua tints, and he says, "We've had people do aqua tints here before, but nobody has done color." 17:00That's all he had to say, and I said, "Well, I'm going to do color." But it was a lot of work, a lot of work, just getting it right, and trying to impress him. He saw how hard I worked, and I think I only managed to get three that were somewhat similar to each other. It was very hard, but I do have that print here, the one from 1970. I had given it to my mom. My mom passed away a few years ago, and so that was something that she gave me, and I really treasure it. It's a beautiful piece. There's no Indians, there's no horses, it's just a nice little landscape. At that time, they weren't encouraging us not to do Indian art, but 18:00to explore other mediums, and ways of expressing ourselves, and then trying to come back and incorporate that into our culture. Thus, came out a lot of very contemporary works. Some of the best contemporary artists have come out of IAIA, but during that time, too--I think we were talking about this earlier, about it really being a man's world, for Indian artists--the women artists, we were just expected to do the pottery, jewelry, and all that. But not the big paintings, and of course, me being from the Gray: family, we love a challenge. That's all you have to say, "You can't do that," and we're right in there doing it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So did you find you had to kind of push yourself harder [than the men]?

Gray: Oh, yeah. I applied to several art schools. The Rhode Island School of Design, Chicago Art Institute, there was another one in New York--Cooper, was it Cooper Union? There [were] about five or six that I applied to. And I also applied to the California Institute of the Arts. It's a Walt Disney School, and Walt Disney was probably, when I was growing up, a big influence on me as far as color. When you view my work, you can see how rich in color they are. I was so impressed with their artists, and I thought, "Well, gosh, if I go to that 20:00school, maybe I'll have a chance to work with some of those artists." Because Fantasia is one of the [movies] that was just a masterpiece, as far as color and design, and how they worked it with the music and dance. It was just great. So I narrowed it down to them. So I went out to Cal Arts, and that was a big cultural shock, from being in a school with nothing but Natives, and I didn't blend well. I tried. I tried, and I didn't get along with my teacher. She kept saying, "You're never going to make it with this Indian painting stuff."

Little Thunder: You were doing Indian subject matter?

Gray: Yes, I was, but in a very contemporary way. I will say that I did have 21:00some influences with some of the teachers there, but I wasn't taking their classes. I would just go to their lectures. My art history teacher loved Indian art, and crazy enough, he was married to my painting teacher, the one who was discouraging me. (Laughs) Yeah, it was an interesting year. I only spent a year out there.

Little Thunder: You were about eighteen?

Gray: Yes, eighteen. Because I went two years of high school at IAIA, and then one year, post-grad, and then I went out to Cal Arts. I got involved with--there weren't very many people of color out there. There was one Chinese girl. There was like two Hispanics. There was like five blacks and there were three Indians, Native Americans.

Little Thunder: Art majors?

Gray: Well, the four black guys were dancers. The black girl, she was in painting like me, and there were two other Indians, a Pima guy and a Navajo guy. The Navajo guy was in commercial art, and the Pima guy was in performing arts, he was in dance, and the Chinese girl--I think she was music. So, of course, we were all on scholarship, and our monies hadn't come in yet that first semester, and we were struggling. And that's when my friend, Manny, came. I didn't know he was going to school there for about the first month or two. I couldn't believe he was there. I went to school with him at IAIA. He had a car, but he didn't 23:00know how to drive (laughter) and I said, "I can drive." So we hung out together, and became really good friends. For Christmas, we were all trying to get Christmas money to go home, so we put on this big party. The four black guys worked with the Flip Wilson Show. They were the

Solid Gold Dancers. And so they had that Chinese girl, that black girl, and they (laughs) did a whole routine with us, made our costumes and everything. Manny danced with them, and the Chinese girl did the music, and technical stuff. I mean, we had lights, we pooled our money together, got food and drinks, and they had to pay admission to get in there. At lunch time, we would all be sitting 24:00around, just talking about our backgrounds and stuff, and just laughing. We'd always pool our money together and share, share all the food.

Little Thunder: You found a community there.

Gray: Yes, and there were some other pretty famous people. Pee Wee Herman was going to school there at the time. He would always be sitting there, in the corner, just watching us, laughing with us, but he would never come over and sit with us. He was just watching us. And Lorraine Newman from Saturday Night Live was there, and Ed Harris, and so it was kind of an interesting time of my life. And so I came back to Oklahoma, and then I got married to my kid's dad, and we went up to New York. He was working in the theater--

Little Thunder: Was he from Oklahoma?

Gray: No, he was from California. He wasn't acting, he was working in production. The first day that we were there, we were walking around New York, just trying to get my bearings, and I run right into Ed Wapp.

Little Thunder: From IAIA?

Gray: Yes. (Laughter) I go, "This is too weird." He said, "What are you doing?" I go, "We just moved here, we're trying to catch up real quick." And he says "Well, I'm helping do the music with the Native American Theater Ensemble." He said, "Why don't you come? You've got background in this." It turns out they owned a building, and that's where they housed everybody, so we ended up moving over there

Little Thunder: Was it Café La Mama?

Gray: Well, that was on Fourth Street and Second Avenue. We were on First and 26:00Second Avenue. It was right around the corner. But we were one of the La Mama groups.

Little Thunder: So you had paying work for awhile?

Gray: Well, at least, we were paid by having an apartment we didn't have to pay for. And from time to time they would give us [something]--it just depends on how the monies came in. And then, just after I joined, they moved to a new performing space, which was six flights up. The first day we get there, the elevator breaks, and was never fixed. So all summer we were in tip top shape because we had to run up and down there. Had to flip coins, or draw straws for who was going to get the lunch (laughs), because you had to carry it up six flights of stairs, but we had a blast. We even made the cover of the New York Times when we were getting ready to do one of our productions. We were all 27:00standing around a drum, and we were singing one of our songs from the production.

Little Thunder: Was it in 1972?

Gray: This was '74. And then they decided to move the company back to Oklahoma City, and it didn't last too much longer. I got pregnant with my daughter, Addie, and she was born in Claremore.

Little Thunder: [Were] you doing any artwork during that period?

Gray: Well, I started doing my artwork again, during my time of my pregnancy with my daughter, and then I started working for a gallery in Tulsa, the Tulsey Gallery, it was over there on Lewis.

Little Thunder: Who owned it?

Gray: Dr. Ron Coleman. So I worked with him, and he was another one of those, "I'm not a man, and so I can't possibly produce anything." He just did not like 28:00my work, it was too contemporary, too--

Little Thunder: Was he showing other Indian art?

Gray: Oh yes. He was showing just about everybody. And I remember, we were doing a show for Minissa Crumbo--Woody's daughter--and she was there. This man came in, and so I was talking to this gentleman, and I said, "Well, would you like to meet the artist?" and he said, "Yes." I introduced them, and it turns out that's who she ended up marrying.

Little Thunder: Jim Halsey?

Gray: Yes. I did a show with [Minissa] not too long ago, and I said, "Do you remember when I introduced you to your husband?" She goes, "That's right! I 29:00didn't ever realize that." I said, "I didn't really realize that until years and years after. I'm the one that introduced you to Jim."

Little Thunder: [Why did he do a show for Minissa? Was that because her style was more traditional or because she was Woody's daughter?]

Gray: [She did traditional work, it was good. I liked her use of color.]

Little Thunder: That must have been so frustrating to be working in a gallery [and] to be an artist.

Gray: And have the gallery owner not believe in you.

Little Thunder: Did he let you hang your work in there?

Gray: Occasionally. I'd been working on my paintings, and the Philbrook [Museum] was getting ready for their annual art show. So I'd worked real hard--it was an oil [painting]. It was a man sitting and praying, and there was a big waterbird coming up (the waterbird is used as a symbol of the Native American Church, among its other meanings, and appears frequently in works by Native artists), and I thought, "Well, if this is what they want (laughs), I'll go for it." But I still had a little Gina Gray: in there. So I entered my piece at Philbrook. It 30:00was only first and second in the painting, no matter what medium. There weren't very many awards in drawing and painting. I don't know if they did printmaking or not back then. They might have. But I got to the reception, and I said, "Oh, Allan Houser's here." And I said, "Oh, T. C. Cannon's here." And I was just so excited that they were there, and I was there. [T. C. Cannon was an early alum of the Institute of American Indian Art, and one of its most celebrated artists.]

Little Thunder: In the show, or present?

Gray: They were present there. I didn't know that they were the judges. (Laughs) And when they named us [winners], called us out, I just was overwhelmed, because Solomon McCombs took first, and I took second.

Little Thunder: What a wonderful moment.

Gray: Yes, and I looked up at that gallery owner (laughs), and I said "So?"

Little Thunder: Have you changed your mind yet?

Gray: It did change his mind, but it took something like that, instead of going with [his] own gut, because I knew he liked my work, but he just thought it was too out there.

Little Thunder: Every generation has kind of redefined what Indian art is. Sometimes you have to bring people along, but he seems to have come along [slower] than the public. Did you often encounter that?

Gray: Yes, when I would approach different galleries, I knew you had to have some awards behind you, and you had to have put your time in. Going to an all-Indian art school isn't going to quite do it. But I was starting to get some awards, something to make a resume, a bio[graphy] at least, so I just kept 32:00plugging away at it. I moved back to Santa Fe after that, and that's where my son, Dante, was born. Not too much longer after that, I got divorced from the kids' dad. I decided to go back to school because IAIA was now becoming accredited. They were still on the old campus, but they were getting ready to move over the college of Santa Fe--

Little Thunder: Are we talking '78?

Gray: Let's see, Dante was born in '76, '77--I guess '77, '78--and that's where I met Earl Biss. Linda Lomahaftewa was my teacher at the time, and they went to 33:00IAIA around the same time, so he went up there to visit her, and he brought her a poster. I was working on this huge painting. And that was the great thing about IAIA, you tell the carpenter what size painting you wanted. I thought, "How can I get one of those big paintings?" So I started painting very big."

Little Thunder: So they built the frame for you and stretched the canvas?

Gray: Yes, and you had to go down there and get it, and it turned into a kite! (Laughter) Back then, I was a little bit of a thing, so it about took me off campus. (Laughs) Anyway, I was working on this one piece, and I saw this photograph of this woman in one of those recliners, like a fainting couch thing, and I think she was in a Kiowa dress. I don't know if you have ever seen that 34:00photograph of this woman. Her legs are extended, and she has leggings on. So I was painting that, but I added--instead of her holding a fan, she was holding these roses. (Laughs) And I had this turpentine that made the roses look like [they were] dripping, and I kept working on it and working on it. I don't know whatever happened to that painting. But [Earl] came up, and he was visiting Linda, and he poked his head around the canvas, and he was going, "Hey, how are you?" I said, "I'm good." And he was just standing there, waiting for me to say "Oh, are you Earl Biss?"

Little Thunder: Because he was fairly well known at that point.

Gray: Yes, he was, but I didn't know who he was. I had always admired his work, but I never saw a picture of him. And the one picture I did see of him, he had hair way down past his waist, and he wore one of those cowboy hats [with a] big 35:00round top. I just wouldn't notice him enough. Finally he came out there and tried to talk to me again. He says, "You want one of these posters?" I'm just painting, and I said, "Sure, lay it right there. Thanks." And he goes, "Well, do you want me to sign it?" I said, "That'd be great. There's a pen there." (Laughs) So when I got done, I got all cleaned up and stuff, and I went out of the Fine Arts building (at that time I was living off campus, so I was getting in my car) I noticed someone was staring at me, and I kind of looked around, and there he was. And he says, "Would you like to go and just visit somewhere, have 36:00some coffee or a drink or something?" I said, "Well, I've got about an hour. I've got to go pick up my kids from the babysitter in just about an hour." So we went to the La Posada Hotel, and our friend Presley La Fountain, he was there, too, and he showed up. We were just laughing, and they kept going, "Why don't you get a babysitter?" And I said, "Well, I'll see you again. I'll see you again." So that's kind of how it started.

And you know, I think from the moment we were together, it was just nonstop laughing, and doing our art, and working on pieces. This one time, I was asking him how he did something, and he goes, "Well here, let's get two canvases." And so we got two canvases, and we started painting. I started painting, and watching him, and then I was doing those horses like he does, and the riders, 37:00and then [I] just start splattering that paint around, and we were just laughing. He goes, "Well, that's really pretty good." (Laughs) We didn't think anything of it. We shoved those paintings off to the side, because they were still wet, and just let them dry. We didn't think anything of it. After we got married, he says, "Hey, honey, you need to come down here." And I said, "What?" And he said, "Just come down here. You're not going to believe this." So I go down there, because I knew he was meeting a collector. I pop in, and he goes, "Well--" I can't remember the gentleman's name, but he said, "So and so wants to buy this piece." And I said, "Oh, great. Do you need some help packing it up?" And he said, "Yes." So he hands me the painting, and I'm going, "But, uh--" And 38:00he goes, "I'm going to tell him." He says, "You can still buy the painting, but you'd have to write the check to her, because it's her painting." He just went, "You're kidding? Oh, my god!" He says, "Well, Earl, you better cut her hands off." (Laughter) He was just kidding, but he was going, "Oh man, I've been collecting this guy's work forever. You got me on that one!"

Little Thunder: So technique wise, [he] couldn't tell it wasn't Earl's?

Gray: No.

Little Thunder: Sounds like you fed off each other creatively.

Gray: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you show together at the same galleries?

Gray: We showed in a few galleries, and we had a show together in Wichita [at 39:00the] Joan Colley Gallery. We had a good show there, too. My mom and dad, my sisters and brothers all came up for the show, and we were all pretty excited. It was fun.

Little Thunder: And by that time your folks were reconciled to the fact that you were a professional artist. (Laughs)

Gray: Oh, yeah. This had already been eight or nine years. That was a nice time, but unfortunately, some things just didn't work out, and we kind of went our separate ways. But we always kept a friendship going, and we would see each other once a year, sometimes twice. He always kept in contact with my children, especially my son. My daughter lived in Oklahoma, and so did I, but my son was in and out of Santa Fe, because that's where he was born. He feels like that's his home. After Earl had a real massive heart attack, Dante was one of the men 40:00that were there when they took him off of the machines. And I was really proud that he was there for Earl. I couldn't make it back there for the funeral. They had it--I guess it was in Montana, but I couldn't make it up there. I was working around Santa Fe for awhile after that, and then moved to Albuquerque for awhile, and then came back to Santa Fe. The kids were getting older, so we were able to all go as a family to art shows, so I started taking the kids around to the art show, and I started competing, and started kind of making my mark.

Little Thunder: What were some of the shows that you were going to?

Gray: Red Earth. I went to Red Earth. I was one of those artists down there for many, many years, and, of course, Indian Market.

Little Thunder: What was your first year to do Indian Market?

Gray: Actually, IAIA used to have what was a booth there, back in the seventies. You'd just run by and throw something in, and then everybody took turns watching the booth, because at that time, you could get our work for next to nothing. A lot of early pieces went flying out the door. But I just kept doing a lot of shows and I had my studio. I moved to Tahlequah after my father passed away in 42:001990, and opened a studio there, and a gallery. I did have a gallery in Santa Fe, too, and a studio. I had several studios there.

Little Thunder: Were they called the Gina Gray: Gallery?

Gray: [I] actually named it after my great-grandfather, Henry Roanhorse--the Henry Roanhorse Gallery.

Little Thunder: Yes, I remember seeing that.

Gray: And I had pretty much the same name down in Tahlequah, too.

Little Thunder: What is it like running a gallery and also producing?

Gray: It just doesn't work, because every time you got to go to a show, you've got to clean out the gallery. And if you have anybody working the gallery, there's nothing for them to sell. I tried it for awhile, but now I work at home, and I like that. I did have a gallery in downtown Pawhuska, but I closed that a 43:00couple years ago. They made some changes with the buildings down there, plus it was an old building. It was hard to heat and hard to cool. It was a lovely space, but--

Little Thunder: That can be hard on paintings.

Gray: Yes. (Laughs) In the late nineties, I got a call from this lawyer in Washington D.C., and he says, "You've been nominated as one of the people they've been thinking about to be a commissioner for the Indian Arts and Crafts Board." I went, "Really? Well, sure, I'd love to do that." He said, "Well, they're meeting and we'll get back to you." A couple of months later, I got a call that I was asked to be the commissioner, and Lloyd [Kiva] New was on the 44:00Board at the time, so I got to be on the Board with him.

Little Thunder: And he had been important at the IAIA?

Gray: Yes, he'd been there from the beginning. He was the director, and it was kind of his baby. Everyone really loved Lloyd. He's just a fountain of information. We would all go out to eat, and it was a nice time. I was with them for about four years. I got to spend a lot of time in Washington, D.C., which I loved, because I liked going to the Smithsonian, and I love history. Throughout the years, I pride myself [on] when I'm asked to do some commission work, I do try to do the history [research], because it's an honor to be asked to do 45:00something special. I was featured artist for the National Congress for American Indians, and I did a piece--they wanted something that represented all tribes. So I did that, and I had some Northwest Coastal influences in there. Had animals in there, had warriors in there, the Four Directions. I had Mother Earth in there, and had the waters for the fish, and the turtles [for] East and West Coast Indians, and I just like doing stuff like that. I was asked to do a cover for a book on Osages, but that research had to be during the Cahokia Mounds 46:00period, and it was a book that talked about present day and back then, but I chose the ancient days. So I had to read a lot of books on that, and find out the time period when Osages were around there, and possibly this was the type of work that they were doing at the time.

Little Thunder: People don't realize how much artists research. It's important. When you think about your painting, how has your style changed over the years?

Gray: I think I've been blessed with the fact that, even when I switch mediums, you still can see a Gina Gray: influence in them. With the monotypes, of course, there's a different type of imagery because of the medium itself. It's just a one-of-a-kind printmaking process, and I use a lot of warrior images and animals.

Little Thunder: In your monotypes?

Gray: Yes, in my monotypes. Now the paintings--.

Little Thunder: [Monotypes don't] lend themselves to detail.

Gray: Yes, there's no detail, so what I did to get detail was I would cut out and use these stencils. Because the plates are different sizes, I had to make stencils that were small, medium, large, really large. And so, over the years, you come to have hundreds of stencils.

Little Thunder: But in terms of your style, you always had that graphic bent, and that love of color that you were talking about--the Disney influence there.

Gray: Yes.

Little Thunder: I remember you mentioning that you didn't often do a lot of 48:00women in your paintings.

Gray: No. I don't know if that was a conscious choice. I just didn't feel like I did them justice. But the last few years, I've been doing a lot more women. I was asked to do a piece for an international child and infant conference. It's hanging on the wall in there, and I did a woman that had a blanket on her back, and a little girl next to her. I had fun doing that one. But yeah, people always ask me, and I say, "Well, you know my good friend Dana Tiger, that's her specialty. Mine's warriors and horses."

Little Thunder: And yet, I know tons of women who are very attracted to your 49:00work. You've had this love of printmaking from the beginning. Are there any other approaches to your printmaking that have changed over the years?

Gray: Yes, because I started working with some different printmakers.

Little Thunder: Do you do monotypes and silk screen?

Gray: No, I just do monotypes. I don't do any etchings, or woodblocks, or any of that type of thing. With monotypes, they have different press houses you can go to, and you can work with a master printer, so that all you're doing is concentrating on the painting itself. They run the presses, and curate your prints for you, because it's a whole process, and you come to have a working 50:00relationship with your printer. You almost have your own language. I mean, when people come to visit, they go, "What are you talking about, double-drop plate? What's that?" She'll look up, and she'll say, "You want a ghost?" and I go, "Yes, if you think there's enough ink on there." Sometimes in monotype printmaking, if there's enough ink on the plate, then you can get another one. Or you can re-ink your stencils, or change them around. I've been working with Michael McCabe out in Santa Fe, and he showed me a lot of different techniques I hadn't seen before, so he was able to get a different look with this overlaying. I would do the print, and he'd print one, and then the ghost--we would put this 51:00other layer on there--it was almost like another overpainting, almost. It really made the ink subtle, and whatever you couldn't see, it would bring it back up. It was remarkable. I thought it was a neat little trick. (Laughs) But I've only gotten to work with him one time. I'm wanting to go back in the spring and work with him, but we're all getting older now. I had to have a helper with me, and she was helping him, and helping me, and she was just running back and forth.

Little Thunder: What kind of a role does stylization play in your work? I'm 52:00thinking about things that aren't necessarily realistic or representational, that are stylized.

Gray: I describe my work, at times, as being impressionistic. People are constantly bringing me pictures of their children, and saying, "Can you paint this?" And I say, "Hats off to those who can do that, but I am not one of them. I don't think you want me to." When people come to me with ideas for a project, or if you're going to be a featured artist, you kind of have something in mind. But it's my impression of how I see things, and as I'm painting, I'm constantly 53:00trying to put myself there with our people from long ago. I think a lot of that comes through. Although it's a contemporary medium and colors, the feeling of the story that I'm trying to tell comes through in traditional way.

Little Thunder: I was wondering how important cultural content was to you.

Gray: Well, like I said, my mom and dad made sure we had the knowledge, and the best of both worlds. Even though they didn't want us to forget our traditions and our ways, they still knew we had to walk in that other world, and I'm very proud of my brothers and sisters, because we have achieved that in so many 54:00different ways. My older sister, she used to work at IAIA. She worked on several projects there with the Title V program. One of the big things they did throughout the year was the Indian Foods Day, and she worked tirelessly on that project. You had to work with all these different tribes, and get their foods flown in, and then make their dwelling. We had tipis up, we had hogans up, we had wikiups. We had all these different dwellings. It was really a fun day, but it took a month for us all to get ready for it.

Then she worked with different Indian organizations, and she's turned a lot of her work to her Christian charity work that she does now. She goes all around 55:00the country, and she prays for people, and she has her prayer group here--that's my sister Jackie. My brother, Andrew, he's always been a history buff, and he was like our in-house tutor when we were all growing up, because if we didn't get it, he'd sit down with us and we'd be sitting there, trying to understand, and he'd work with us. But he has always been interested in history. He tried different schools, and then he finally just went back to work. Then after he turned fifty, he decided he was going to go back and get his degree. So he went to Kansas, back to school there at Pittsburg University, and he got his 56:00Bachelor's and got his Master's. Now he's teaching at the Pawnee College in Pawnee, Oklahoma. This last semester, he's still teaching history classes, but he also added a class. He's teaching Indian gaming classes, so he gets to take his classes to all of the different Indian casinos. He's really working very hard to make a program, because this is big for Indians. If they can get the training, and the knowledge, it helps us go towards being more self-sufficient. Andrew really has helped those kids, and they really look up to him, and we're all very proud of him. My sister, Mary, she does our traditional ribbon work. 57:00She's been in the Smithsonian, and so is my aunt, for her ribbon work. My work is in the Smithsonian, too, so it's kind of nice. We're hoping to get some of the nieces and nephews in there, too.

Little Thunder: And I feel like there's overlap between your work, design- wise, and weaving, and Osage ribbon work, and all of the traditional Osage arts

Gray: Well, that was growing up with my aunts. They used to have a store here called the Red Man's Store, and they produced our ribbon work for our skirts, and for the men's suits, and the blankets, and they made the moccasins, the belts, the shirts. This is a traditional Osage women's shirt [I'm wearing], and 58:00that was the go-to place if you're getting ready to dance. You'd go there, and it would take about a year to get women's clothes together, about two years to get men's clothes together. It's all done by hand. So Mary grew up learning that from our aunts, and she's taught her daughters, and they're all really good in their own ways. They all have their own style, and now they're teaching the granddaughters. [Mary] was working with the language. She and her husband worked with our Osage Language Program for many years, and he's now the director of our Osage Cultural Center. She's working with the tobacco [program] to stop smoking. 59:00In fact, she's in Oklahoma City right now doing some training on the traditional [uses of tobacco].

And then my brother, Louis, is a writer. He's always working on different projects with his writing. I was trying to think the other day how long he's been working up at that program. It's our drug and alcohol program. He's councilor up there, and he's had many, many successes with it. Also, he's a political analyst, and he blogs and he writes, and he's a very funny guy, and very talented.

And then there's me. My younger sister, Margo, is president of an engineering 60:00firm, plus she sits on different boards [on] the national level, different women's groups, and has taken many, many awards for her accomplishments. She owns two businesses now, with the engineering groups, so we're proud of her, too.

Then comes our younger brother, Jim. Jim was a former Osage Nation Chief for the past eight years, and now he's starting his own consulting business, and very happy. That was a long eight years. (Laughter) We wanted him to go another term, but when you're the chief's family, it's a blessing, and then it's not. But we 61:00had his back, you know, and supported him. And he's still young enough to go in--he's got a great business mind, and he just got back from Hawaii. [President] Obama is getting ready to sign a contract with [Native Hawaiians] that they can be like us, like a tribe. So they're starting from the ground up with their government, with their health programs, and so he's involved with that. And he's got some other groups around he's been working with. He's getting ready to go out to Las Vegas for another conference, and he's keeping busy. He's 62:00very ambitious, and really loves his Native people, and wants them to do better, and wants to help them do better. He's a lot like my father, likes to right those wrongs and make them right in a good way. He's also working with his wife on their businesses together, so now they're spending a lot more time together, and with the family, and it's good to see them just relax. I go and visit them quite often now.

Little Thunder: I'm thinking about the fact that artists give us pleasure with their work, but what other kinds of responsibilities do you think Indian artists have?

Gray: Well, we're keeping history going, and the stories that we've been told as youngsters, and teaching those that are up-and-coming artists that it is possible to have a career and a life of an artist. When I was growing up in the seventies, I knew I wanted to [be an artist], and I knew I wasn't going to give up, but I knew it was going to be hard. And it was. You sit down and do all these paintings. It's like, people always ask me to go to the casinos, and I say, "What I do is a gamble. I'm gambling every day." I paint this painting, and I don't know if it's going to sell. (Laughs) But you get to a point where you've 64:00got to learn to believe in yourself, and I think that's a lot what gives back to people, and these young people, that you know you can do almost anything if you put your mind to it. If art is one of them, you can make a life doing that. It's a career, and there's a lot of benefits to it. You meet so many people when you're on the road. Like I said to you earlier, I'm kind of semi-retired from that. I can't believe how many shows we used to all do all the time, like two or three a month, and you're out of state and you're driving here and there.

Little Thunder: That's a hectic schedule.

Gray: Yes, so I do about one show a year, and I do other projects. And I do a lot of charity work, like with the Osages. We have a Christmas tree auction 65:00every year, I do that. I don't know if you noticed those bird houses over there. That's a fundraiser, so they've asked a lot of Osage artists to paint these bird houses, and they're just cute. I like that green one. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What is your creative process? How would you describe it?

Gray: Sometimes I have to get the heck out of the house, and just go somewhere and look at art. I mean, it gets to that point. Or I just start reading, or it could be I pick up the phone and I call one of my contemporaries, and just start saying, "I'm looking at this blank canvas."

Little Thunder: You call another artist.

Gray: Yes, I call another artist, and they go, "Oh, don't you just hate that?" 66:00and I'm going, "Yes, gosh." Because I don't want to just do another Gina Gray: warrior. I can knock those out all day long, but I care too much about not being too commercial. I mean, like signed and numbered prints. I only have six of them out. I've never done a giclée. When you see my work, ninety percent of it is originals. I do have some reproduction works, but not very much, as far as the signed and numbered print business goes.

Little Thunder: It does get harder, doesn't it? My husband has told me that.

Gray: Yes, it does. You're so excited when you've done something that you know 67:00nobody has seen, and you know it's different. It's yours, but it's different, and every once in awhile, you've got to get off that main road and see what's on those little side roads.

Little Thunder: In printmaking, you need access to a press, and you need that other person. I wonder if maybe that's something that draws you to the process.

Gray: Yes, because you've got one day to do it, and you've got one try at it. When it goes through that press, it's either going to make it, or it's not. I feel very blessed with the fact that I know how much pressure to put on that 68:00breyer. I know how much ink to put on there, and I know a lot about what's going to work, and what's not going to work. But I still like to try to experiment. I love to experiment. I'm always trying different things. I think that's the exciting part of Gina Gray: 's art, the experimentation that I put into it because I like to push myself. I don't like that word "can't." I'll try it once, and if I don't quite get it, I'll try again. And maybe I'm not going to get to the point where I wanted to get, but I got something different out of it. I've taught a lot. I've done different teaching projects, and I try and teach that to 69:00my students. They want to paint that tree (laughs), and they want that tree to look like that tree, on that paper. And I said, "Let's try something different." I try to show them different techniques, different ways of coming at it, and looking at it. But I enjoy teaching the kids.

Little Thunder: What kind of benefits do you think that has for an artist? The chance to teach?

Gray: You get to look inside yourself, and say, "Well, I do know something. Something did stick in that head after all these years." Some gallery people say, "Oh, don't be showing them how to do this and that."And I go, "What am I 70:00going to do, take it with me?" I would like to know that, long after I'm gone, someone's going to say, "She taught me how to do this. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be doing this." There would be an empty spot inside of me--always--if I didn't fulfill that.

Little Thunder: How would you define Oklahoma Indian Art? Or is it possible to define it?

Gray: Well, I can't quite put my finger on it. A lot of the artists do try to depict the old ways, or in a contemporary sense, try to depict in a contemporary sense, that feeling of a ceremony or something. But the early days, where you 71:00outline with one blue, and you come back in with another lighter blue, and then, another lighter, lighter blue, and it's like, "Oh my gosh. Is that what we've got to look forward to?" That little, crazy bird flying up there? (Laughs) And then, those little clouds, and the deer. But you learn something from each other. I really can't put what it is, that when you look at Oklahoma Indian artists, you know it's from Oklahoma. You just know it. Just like the Northern Plains, you know that, and the Southwest. I guess it [has] a lot [to do] with 72:00the design and the subject matter.

Little Thunder: When you were on the Indian Arts and Crafts Board, they'd already passed the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, to prevent knockoffs from China, among other things. But it also stipulated Indian artists must have proof of enrollment or be certified by their tribes. Do you remember how that impacted the art scene in Oklahoma?

Gray: When it really was starting to have an impact, I wasn't living here in Oklahoma, I was in Santa Fe. But I saw when it hit there, and some of my fellow artist friends, it really hit them hard. Some of them just never recovered, 73:00because they just did not have the proof. And a lot of us stood up for them, because we knew their history. It's just that they couldn't get it certified. So that was unfortunate. And then when I moved back here in the nineties, it was still going on. You'd go to galleries, and they'd go, "Well, do you have a CDIB card?" I was like "Well, yeah." Because they were worried about the Indians Arts and Crafts Board coming in. And they were threatening people with fines--individuals, and groups.

When I was on the Board, we found out about this one group from Taiwan. They 74:00completely renamed their whole city, Zuni, because they had to have a stamp--because the jewelers had to have stamps, a hallmark, and they renamed their city Zuni, and it took awhile to get that stopped. I was in a store in Gallup one time, my friend Eunice Kahn and I, she works for the Navajo Museum. She's an archivist, and she goes, "Boy, that sure looks like your painting." We were looking at these women's scarves. It was in this Indian woman's [store]--a Navajo woman owned it. I said, "Oh my god, that is mine." And it's that original 75:00right there.

Little Thunder: Your designs?

Gray: On a scarf. It was on a silk scarf. That face, and those horses were on there.

Little Thunder: What did you do?

Gray: Well, there wasn't any way for us to contact [anybody], and the lady who owned the store wasn't in, so we never made a connection as to who was doing that. And it was like, "Wow. They can take anything and print it."

Little Thunder: I think it's been hard for artists to get the tribes to back them, to really put some money and resources into the work of their own tribal 76:00artists. Do you feel like there's more support nowadays?

Gray: Yes. I mean, in the seventies and eighties, our tribe really wasn't purchasing any art, and the collection was at a standstill. There really wasn't an outlet. We did have a little store here, Clifton's, that artists could go and sell their art to, but they've closed. And just recently, our Osage Nation gift shop closed--it just wasn't making the money. You kind of felt like you got kicked in the stomach, because maybe they didn't buy a whole lot, but it was something, and it was steady. So now, [you] just have to look elsewhere and find 77:00another outlet.

Little Thunder: Maybe they can reopen it at some point.

Gray: Yes, that would be nice. Even the ribbon workers, that's where they got all their ribbon and their supplies, and they had built up such an inventory. I mean, not everybody carries those ribbons. And the blankets, Pendletons--all the Osage Artists sold something out of there.

Little Thunder: What collections are you most proud of having your work in?

Gray: Well, the Smithsonian, of course. And I have work in Philbrook's collection. And the Institute of American Indian Arts. Eitlejorg [Museum]. I'd 78:00have to say those are the top ones.

Little Thunder: That's a great picture I saw on the refrigerator of you and your fellow Oklahomans at the Institute. Can you quickly list who's in the picture?

Gray: There was Parker Boyiddle, Karita Coffey, Sherman Chaddlesone, Allie Chaddlesone, myself, Bill Glass, Richard Whitman and Marcus Amerman. I think there was more, but that's just who happened to be standing there.

Little Thunder: What art awards are you most proud of?

Gray: The Fellowship award that I got from SWAIA [the Southwest Association of Indian Arts].

Little Thunder: What did you use it for?

Gray: At the time, I had my studio gallery in Tahlequah, so we made some 79:00additions to the gallery--mostly maintenance things, building some more space, and work tables, and supplies--lots of supplies. I bought a bunch of supplies. As you know, we're like crazy when we go to art supply stores.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs) That's where all of an artist's money goes. Is there anything [else] you'd like to add to our discussion?

Gray: Well, my children. My daughter is going to school down in Texas right now. My granddaughter, Anya, is down there. My grandson, Ezra, he's with his dad in 80:00Coweta, and my son just recently got married to Yanti--she's from Bali. He has a place in Santa Fe as well, so she's living there, and he went back to work for the Department of Defense in Afghanistan, and his son from his first marriage. [My son] Dante's a very accomplished artist as well. He's won several awards at SWAIA, and Eiteljorg, and Red Earth [Indian Arts Festival] and Tulsa Indian Art Festival and different places. His son Neo Thor is from Iceland. He lives there with his mother, and he's a special kid.

Little Thunder: He spent a summer here, didn't he?

Gray: Several summers now, but he told me, "Amma Gina, it's just too hot." And poor thing, he comes from Iceland, and had to come here in our traditional dances. I said, "Son, you need to bring him in the fall, or the spring, or something." We're working on that. But he's just miserable hot here. (Laughs) I bought him a big swimming pool last summer, and oh, they had a good time in it. I said, "At least they'll be cool." (Laughs) All the grandkids loved that, and the nieces and nephews--the little ones. There were so many in there, they couldn't hardly move.

Little Thunder: We're looking at the first piece of art. This is the first piece which is called Clan Seeker. Is there anything you'd like to share about it?

Gray: In 1992, I was asked to be the featured artist for the Tulsa Indian Arts 82:00Festival. They said that they were going to need a painting for their auction. They ask that of all the featured artists, and I said, "Oh, okay." Then I started thinking, and thinking about it, because they said they were going to make a poster. And I said, "Oh, my. I better really do something really different and really cool." And so I started working on it, and as I was drawing his face, I immediately saw-- In the early eighties I did a lot of paintings of landscapes, and feathers, so I thought, "Well in his fan, I'll put a little landscape in there." And then I thought he needed some horses. So I put some horses, and just kept going from there.

Like I say, when I'm doing my work, I like to put myself where they're at. This is a proud warrior and I'm depicting a little bit of his home, and his thoughts, and his feathers. His favorite ponies with the clans--the clans are very important in the Osage Tribe. We still hold naming ceremonies, and we still keep the tradition of passing these names down. My name is Pah-pu-son-tse and I'm of the Deer Clan. The names come from every aspect of the deer, each name, and I'm always intrigued with that whole clan system. So I did a lot of research. We 84:00have sky clans, and earth clans. When the Sky People and the Earth People in our creation myth came down and met together, and joined each other, they sent different ones to find out the clans, and to look at all the things around them--the environment, the animals--and decide on one that they thought best suited them. So this is why I call this Clan Seeker, because he was one of the ones that went out, and searched out the different clans. That's why they're depicted in black and white, because he hasn't brought them over to our world yet. So we have birds, the sun, stars, thunder clouds, lightning, buffalo, 85:00turtle, fish. That's about all of them in there.

This was the first one of a series of signed and numbered prints that I did, along with the [Tulsa Indian Arts Festival]. They helped publish them. It was one of the best selling posters the Festival had. (Laughs) I think it set a record. They also made some signed and numbered prints of it. That was nice, but [the original] belongs to my dear friend, and brother, Dr. [Patrick] Tinker. That was the first time I had met him was when he came to the auction, and bought this piece. Over the years our families have eaten together at 86:00I'n-lon-schka dances, and they've joined our Native American church, and the Tinker family's been right alongside with the Gray: family. We've all become very close, and he was nice enough to lend me a few of my works, so that I'd have something to show. (Laughter)

This next painting is a painting I did in 2004, I believe. I was in Italy visiting my son. He was stationed there in the Air Force, and I've always wanted to paint in a European city. It's just like--I don't know what was in my head--but even as a young girl, I said, "One of these days, I'm going to paint in Europe." And so I got busy and I did quite a bit of art while I was there, 87:00and my son really, really liked this piece, so this is Dante's piece. It was just a warrior. I don't think there's even a title for it. [It's] just that it was painted in Italy. Lightning Chief, I called it Lightning Chief. My mother is Lightning Clan, and my uncle. I like their clan name. It's Sun Carrier Clan. That's a really neat image, someone carrying the sun.

Little Thunder: It's interesting [because] to me, it shows Italian influence because of the golds.

Gray: This is a painting of my grandpa, Clarence Gray. I painted this in--I 88:00don't think I put a date on there--in 1978. This is after I had been at IAIA, and Cal Arts, and then IAIA again, and people were just finishing up this sort of style of painting. I was influenced from a few artists at IAIA that were trying to do this style of painting. The photograph that I took this off is from a larger photograph up at the Osage Museum. It's one of those big panoramic [photos], just a whole row of Osages. Off to the right you see my grandpa, and 89:00once you see him, you know it's him. I'm quite proud of this piece, and it's signed with my Osage name, my clan name, and my last name.

Little Thunder: Is that how you signed your work for awhile?

Gray: Just for a very short time, but it was hard for people to pronounce it. I don't think it's that hard to pronounce, but it was hard for some people, and also it's hard to paint all that when you're used to just doing Gray: . (Laughter) You probably know that with Merlin. Merlin's got quite the signature with clouds and all that.

Little Thunder: That's nice. I have a question for you about the landscape, because you lived in Colorado all that time. There [seems to be] some overlap between those two landscapes.

Gray: This piece is one of my very first etchings I did in Santa Fe, working with Seymour Tubis. I think I spoke earlier [about] how he challenged me, saying 90:00that students had done aqua tints, but nobody had done a color aqua tint. So not only did I use one color, I used two. (Laughter) I was quite proud of myself, and it was so hard to make each print exactly the same. I really don't call myself a printmaker, because I don't actually do the turning [of] the press. I do now. I have my own press now, and I've gotten a little more confident in that. But in the early days of my career, as a student [who] was trying to reproduce something, one right after another, my mind just wouldn't let me go there. I kept messing up--I'd see myself purposely try to make it different from 91:00the last one. It used to make Mr. Tubis so mad. (Laughs) He goes, "I know you can do it. Why did you do that?" Because I would make this orange too much lighter, or make that yellow a little darker. He says, "Well, I think you have plenty of artist proofs. Let's start on one out of--" How many? I think we got one out of three. (Laughter) So this is actually an artist's proof.

Back then I was signing Gina Gray: . I don't know if all artists do that, but you go through this whole little thing about how you're going to sign your painting. Are you going to use your whole name? Your last name? I started 92:00thinking, "You know, if I'm going to take this seriously, I'm going to have to cut this name down, just to the Gray: part." I had a distinctive Gray: signature, so I made sure it was different from anybody else. I was told by R.C. Gorman--I was painting up in Taos one summer, up in the mountains, and I asked him if he would look at my work and kind of critique me. Back then, I was painting my signature real tiny. Because they taught you in art school, don't be putting a big signature out there. I just went the opposite way. It was so tiny. And he says, "You know, I love the painting. Hate the signature." I was just 93:00crushed. (Laughs) "What do you mean?" And he goes, "I can't even read it. I can't even find it. You want them to like your work, but you also have to learn where to place your signature, and for it to be readable." And I said, "Okay, I will do that." So the next time I saw him, about a year later, I was in Taos, and I was carrying some paintings. He says, "Gina Gray: ." And I said, "Yay! You remembered me!" And he said, "Yes, of course I do. Made that name a little bigger, didn't you?" I said, "Yes, I did."

Little Thunder: What a great story. Gina, thank you so much for a wonderful interview.

------- End of interview -------