Oral history interview with Norene Starr

Milligan: The first thing I'm going to do, obviously, is a short introduction. My name is Sarah Milligan. I am with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. I'm in Weatherford today with Norene Starr.. Today's date is June 11, 2018. We're doing an interview as a part of a series we've been doing with the Chilocco Alumni Association, focused specifically on military veterans relating to Chilocco's historical campus. I always have to say it's not an actual place anymore. That's as formal as we're going to get. I'd like to get a little bit of background information on you, just where you're from, sort of anything you want to talk about, your family or anything else to bring us up to date.

Starr: I was born in Clinton, Oklahoma, which is west of here about fourteen miles. I was born at the Clinton Indian hospital. My father was in the Korean 1:00War. He was in the Navy. His brother was in the Vietnam War and the Korean War, and he was in the Army. Then my grandmother's brother was MIA for years, and they finally declared him Killed in Action during World War II. He was a fighter pilot. At the time, it was the Air Force that was still under the Army. We had a lot of people that were veterans. There was a lot of military servers, and was talked about a lot in the home. I wanted to join the Army, so I did.

Milligan: So let's back up a second. Do you have tribal affiliation?

Starr: I'm Cheyenne.

Milligan: You decided to join the Army, but it sounds like there were a couple of different branches of military that your family had been in up to that point. Maybe talk a little bit about your choice for the Army and how you came to that.

Starr: I started out in the Guard and then went to the regular Army is what happened because I really liked it.

Milligan: Where did you end up joining the National Guard?

Starr: Clinton.

Milligan: So it was while you were in Clinton. I never asked you this. What was your relationship with Chilocco, because that's where--,

Starr: I went to school there.

Milligan: When did you go to school there?

Starr: I went to high school there. I went to high school there in '75, '76, and '77.

Milligan: You were at the tail end.

Starr: Yeah, the very tail end. Half a year in '78, so I guess it was '76, '77, 3:00and half a year in '78.

Milligan: So before we get into the military side, maybe we'll talk a little bit about how you ended up at Chilocco and maybe a little bit about your experience there.

Starr: I was a throw-away.

Milligan: You want to expand on that a little bit?

Starr: I was a child that nobody really wanted.

Milligan: Did you have parents who were actively raising you?

Starr: No.

Milligan: Who were you living with, then?

Starr: Maternal grandparents, and it was pretty rough. They weren't mean to me. They were good to me. They just didn't know how to raise kids. They were really, 4:00really old. My brother was with me, my younger brother. We had a lot of baggage from being abandoned. There was a lot of mental issues and stuff going on, too, especially with my younger brother. It was really hard and difficult for them to deal with him and then deal with me. Then me being in the middle, I always felt like I had to protect him. Anyway, I ended up getting sent off, so it was kind of like I was a throw-away child. I ended up in the system. I was adopted several times. I was in several foster homes. I don't know how many schools I went to. There was a lot of different schools.

Milligan: Was it always in this area of the state?

Starr: It was always in the state of Oklahoma; no, it wasn't always in this area. It was in the state of Oklahoma. Chilocco, I think, was one of the longest places I was at.

Milligan: How did you end up there? Was that a choice, or was that somewhere that you were, was that somewhere that you were sent?

Starr: I didn't really have much choice. The last foster home that I was in was with a preacher and his wife in Drummond. It was horrible. It was horrible. I just couldn't live there. They said, "Well, you're old enough that you can go to an Indian boarding school if you want." My case worker suggested it, so they came up with the idea. I've been to Whitaker, which was a children's home in 6:00Pryor. I'd already been to several different institutions like that, so I was like, "Hey, this will be cool." I went to Concho [Indian Boarding School] whenever I was eleven.

Milligan: I was wondering about that since you're so close to there.

Starr: Yeah, I went to Concho when I was a little girl.

Milligan: Did you like going? The institutional versions of that, did you like that when you were growing up? I guess "like" isn't the word I'm looking for.

Starr: Yeah, I liked it.

Milligan: Was it okay?

Starr: I liked it. I was kind of independent. I could do my own thing and didn't have to worry about people bothering me. Yeah, I did.

Milligan: So your case worker suggested that you go to an Indian boarding school. Was your case worker Indian, or was your case worker not?

Starr: White, he was out of Garfield County. Chilocco came up. I read the 7:00material and said, "I think I want to go there," because it looked like it had a really pretty campus. I seen all the pretty trees. "Hey, I want to go there," (Laughs) so that's where I went.

Milligan: At that time, I think you put in an application and usually got accepted pretty easily. So whenever you got there, was it what you thought it was going to be?

Starr: There was a lot of kids there. I was surprised.

Milligan: Kids, like, your age?

Starr: Yeah, I was really surprised. I didn't expect it to be so high-schooly, but it was high-schooly. It was all high-school-aged group, and they were older than me.

Milligan: What age did you go in, then?

Starr: I don't know. I was younger, but I was doing high school education work. 8:00It was real high-schooly. (Laughs)

Milligan: I don't think I've ever had anyone describe it as high-schooly to me, even though I think the way people talk about it, it seems that way. That's funny to have that description put on it. The idea that you go there to live, there's always this discussion about how they managed that many kids living in one place, all these teenagers in one isolated sort of place, and the rules that had to be in place just to keep everyone moving forward. You don't always think about the fact that there's still a high school vibe. You're still--.

Starr: Right, oh, yeah. It was a lot of fun. It was a blast. You met people from all over the United States that came there. All the students were there; it was full. It was a full campus. It was really a lot of fun.

Milligan: What was fun about it?

Starr: I don't know, everything. (Laughter) I really liked it.

Milligan: Did you do any trade classes, or did you mainly do--.

Starr: I did printing. I did the printing class. I enjoyed it.

Milligan: Neat. I think that was after the time when they had instituted the year-round program option. Did you do the year-round?

Starr: No.

Milligan: Where did you go in the summers, then?

Starr: A lot of summers I came to Clinton to my grandparents'. I kind of came home and stayed there.

Milligan: Was that your choice? Did you ever think about staying, or did you just always think that maybe it was time to go home?

Starr: I would come home and stay, and then I was adopted by George Calls Him. He was a Ponca minister. His daughter started taking me home with her all the time--

Milligan: From Chilocco?

Starr: --from Chilocco on weekends. They lived at White Eagle. He worked there on the campus. Him and his family took me in, and I kind of ended up staying there. Then he adopted me into the family. He had ministered out here and had lived among my people out here, so he knew a lot of our traditions and a lot of our ways and stuff. He would sit and talk to me for hours on end. He was truly a great man and a wonderful mentor and great teacher. I really loved him.

Milligan: What did he teach while you were in Chilocco? It sounds like you got to know him because, maybe, your relationship with his daughter, but he was on 11:00campus, as well.

Starr: He didn't work like a teacher. I don't really remember what he did, honestly.

Milligan: That was my assumption.

Starr: I just know he was there and he worked there.

Milligan: Yeah. Did he do any of the religious activities on campus, because they had some churches that would come out--.

Starr: I don't know.

Milligan: No idea?

Starr: I don't know.

Milligan: What denomination did he preach in? Do you remember that?

Starr: I don't remember that, either.

Milligan: Also not important. Just curious. How old were you whenever you were adopted by him and his family?

Starr: Fifteen.

Milligan: That was your second year, maybe, second year in Chilocco.

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: Did you sort of consider that home after--.

Starr: Yeah, oh, yeah, he had a lot of kids.

Milligan: Really?

Starr: Oh, yeah, he had a lot of kids. There was a lot of kids in that house.

Milligan: Were they kids like you that he had pulled together as a family, or were they biological children?

Starr: Most of them were biological. I learned how to cook. I learned how to mop, things I did not know how to do. I just didn't know how to do all that stuff.

Milligan: Did you not have to learn how to do some of that in Chilocco, too?

Starr: Not really.

Milligan: Really? You didn't have to do a lot of chores by that point?

Starr: No.

Milligan: That's interesting.

Starr: Why would I? I was probably one of the youngest ones on campus. (Laughs)

Milligan: I've heard there wasn't a lot of discrimination amongst who was given different duties at different times. So it sounds like you actually gained your 13:00life skills once you were integrated with that family.

Starr: I gained a lot, joking, laughing. I'm pretty serious, so it's really hard for me to do the joking thing. Indian people joke a lot, and they tease hard. It took me a long time to figure it out, the humor. I wasn't raised that way. When I was little, there was no laughter, no fun, no joking. It was just constant 14:00bickering and arguing and fussing and fighting. I didn't know how to laugh, so I learned how to laugh. That's a big thing. That's a very big thing. We'll come back to laughter later.

Milligan: We can do that. So you were in the National Guard unit in Clinton, but that would have also been the time period while you were at Chilocco, right?

Starr: No. I graduated.

Milligan: Oh, it was after you graduated.

Starr: It was after graduation.

Milligan: Okay. When you went through Chilocco (let me just ask a couple of technical questions about that) what home were you in? Do you remember?

Starr: I was in dorm Five, the girls' dorm, hello.

Milligan: I can never remember at what point they split up the ages and what have you.

Starr: There was only one girls' dorm--

Milligan: By that point there was only one girls' dorm.

Starr: --but they split sides. They split levels.

Milligan: Right. So were you around other kids your age, or how were you divided up?

Starr: I don't know. I just hung out with whoever I wanted to.

Milligan: Was it hard to adjust once you got to campus?

Starr: No!

Milligan: Really?

Starr: Really. I loved it. I hung out with all kinds of people. I loved it. The whole time, it didn't matter.

Milligan: Besides doing the print program there, were there other things that you remember doing, or other skills or classes that you particularly liked?

Starr: I loved the library. They had an outstanding library of Native American history.

Milligan: Yeah, that's interesting.

Starr: It was outstanding. I probably read every book in there.

Milligan: Had you ever spent a lot of time around a lot of Native people by that point?

Starr: Not really, just the ones, like, at Concho.

Milligan: Just when you were younger for periods of time.

Starr: Yeah. It was hard. It was just like nobody took the time to really invest in me.

Milligan: I see. Do you feel like people invested in you when you were at Chilocco?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: You do?

Starr: I do. I had a lot of friends that invested in me, and George invested in 17:00me a lot.

Milligan: I'm glad you found your place there. Okay, so when you graduated, talk to me about joining the Guard, and talk to me about how you ended up doing that in the Clinton area.

Starr: Well, I decided I was going to go into the Guard because I thought, "Well, I'm not going to just go in the Army. I want to check it out first and see if I like it." I didn't want to dive head-first, as they say. I went ahead, and I joined--.

Milligan: All right, let me think about this. Okay, so you'd just graduated from Chilocco, and you decided to join the National Guard in Clinton, partly because you wanted to test the waters before you dove head-first into straight going into the Army. -- Why did you decide to go directly from graduation to the National Guard? Did you think at all about maybe leaving there and just going to work, or were you just like, the plan was always like, "After this, I'm going to--."

Starr: Yeah, the plan was always military.

Milligan: All right, so talk to me about joining the Guard, then.

Starr: It's what I wanted to do, so that's what I went and done.

Milligan: So you went and signed up, and then you--.

Starr: I went and signed up and went to basic in October.

Milligan: Where'd you go to basic training?

Starr: Fort Jackson [South Carolina].

Milligan: Fort Jackson, okay, so you joined. Tell me about being in the Guard, then.

Starr: I was in the Guard '78, '79, and then in '79 I joined the Army. I ended up at Fort Sill [Oklahoma], heavy artillery. Lovely, just lovely. (Laughs) "Join the Army; see the world." Ended up at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

Milligan: So while you were in the Guard, at what point did you--what got you to 20:00the point you think, "Okay, I've tested the water. Now I'm ready to go in?"

Starr: I don't know. I think it was when I came back home. We went to camp at Fort Chaffee [Arkansas]. From Fort Chaffee we went to Vegas to a colonel's retirement, and I was in Color Guard there. I thought, "This is exciting, so I think I'll go ahead and join the Army." So I did.

Milligan: So you were--what was exciting about that point?

Starr: Just being out away from Oklahoma, being away from home, being away from--. Just being away. It was something new, something different.

Milligan: Got it. So when you joined the Army and then you got sent to Fort Sill--.

Starr: I was not happy. I wasn't happy about that.

Milligan: Was there any time when you could have requested to be stationed somewhere else?

Starr: I don't think so. I don't think so. At the end of basic when I was in the Guard, December 14, 1978, that's when I was raped.

Milligan: When you were in the Guard?

Starr: Yes, at basic training at Fort Jackson.

Milligan: Oh, gosh, right when you first went in.

Starr: Yes, so it was kind of--I don't know. When you deal with historical 22:00trauma and then you deal with all the other trauma on top of that, the personal trauma, the abandonment, and you deal with all of this other stuff on top of that, and then you deal with the moral injury that you have to endure in the military, it was something that was common. Does that make sense?

Milligan: Common for you, or common in--.

Starr: Common for me. It was common for me, so it was okay.

Milligan: To feel assaulted?

Starr: Yes, and it was okay for somebody to tell me it didn't happen.

Milligan: Explain that to me. Did you officially report? What was your process?

Starr: When it happened, I was walking. We had, I don't know, however many hours of leave or whatever that afternoon. I was walking on the sidewalk, and I should have took the bus. I know.

Milligan: Were you off base?

Starr: No, we were on base. I was just walking. What's going to happen to you on base while you're walking in broad daylight? Someone said, "Come here." I turned 24:00around and looked, and about that time he pulled me off the sidewalk and pulled me off into the bushes there. I could hear other people laughing and stuff. I didn't understand what was going on. I didn't understand it. I didn't know. By the time he got done, there was another person that came and pulled him off of me and pulled me up, and was helping me get my clothes straightened up and getting me back to the sidewalk to safety. I know who both individuals are. They 25:00were from my company. I remember them. I had to hear this man's voice every day. I had to see his face every day.

Milligan: Did you report it?

Starr: Yes. Captain [Bathais] said it didn't happen, so it just didn't happen. Drill Sergeant [McBee] said it didn't happen, so it just didn't happen. But the guy that pulled him off of me knew it happened, and the guy that done it knew it happened.

Milligan: So did the person that helped--I don't know. Maybe helping isn't actually what happened, but the person that pulled him off and helped straighten you up--.

Starr: He tried to speak up for me, and he got punished like I did. We ended up 26:00pulling KP for about a week.

Milligan: Why do you think that is?

Starr: I don't know. I still to this day can't figure that out.

Milligan: Do you think--I know I'm asking you to speculate, but do you get the sense that it had something to do with the other individual's relationship with people, or was it because there was a denial culture of any sort of sexual assault that could happen?

Starr: It was a denial culture. The military was not about to admit to something like that. They did not want to investigate it, and they didn't want to talk about it. It did not happen. It did not happen, period. That was just the way it 27:00was. So after that, it's just not, it's not been good. I drank most of the time that I was in the Army, and since then I've put myself in other situations to be harmed. I've chosen some of the worst men. My first husband locked me in a basement for two years and beat me, tortured me, and I thought it was fine. I 28:00don't know why I thought it was fine. Why did I think it was fine? Was it because it didn't happen, or was it because that's just the kind of thing or concept that I had that I deserved, that I deserved it, or that that's maybe all I was ever going to get.

Milligan: With that being the starting point for your military career, how easy was it for you to continue on in military?

Starr: It was pretty rough.

Milligan: What was the choice? When you--you talked about the different places 29:00you were able to go, and you consciously decided to sign up and go in with the Army. I know what I can hear you saying is that this assault is always in the background of your mind, is what it sounds like.

Starr: Yeah, it is now. Let me expand on that. After I got out of the military finally and decided to get out, of course I had been in this horrible marriage.

Milligan: While you were in the military? You got married while you were in the military?

Starr: Yes. I had been in this horrible marriage, and it was just, oh, my god. Anyway, I was drinking a lot. I drank a lot. I began that process of drinking, 30:00and then I started using meth. I done meth for thirty-two years. I was an intravenous drug user. I've been clean and sober thirteen years, one month, nine days today. Just in the past five years, six years, it started coming back, pieces and pieces. That's why it's so--. I understand now what I didn't understand then, that this rape and the moral injury that it caused me that the 31:00military done was so pervasive over everything in my life afterwards, all the drug addiction and going to prison. I've been to prison twice for drugs. I sold drugs. I wasn't a nice person.

Milligan: When you were continuing on in the military with this denial of an assault that you had reported, was that behavior that you saw continued on other places? Did you see assault happen to other people, or did you talk to other assault survivors at the time? Was there any points of contact you had with 32:00other people who were working through some of the same things, or did you feel isolated or something completely outside of that?

Starr: I felt pretty isolated. The two guys knew what happened. I knew what happened. I told two friends (they were sisters) that I was with in basic. I told them both what happened because they were my best friends. As far as anybody else, no. There was no one to talk to; there was no one to tell. I just kind of ignored it. It just didn't happen. The problem is, is that it did happen. It came back, and it controlled my whole life. For me to allow some man 33:00into my life to touch me without cringing would be, I don't know, something that I wouldn't even understand. I couldn't even begin to understand. I'm repulsed by the idea of somebody touching me. It's hard for me to have physical contact with people, period. Those babies, maybe.

I try to do that a lot with them because I know I'm not built that way because of that. Because of this, it's controlled my life. I try to take back over, take that power back, and it's like I have to force myself to do it. I have to force myself to hug my babies and to hug my grandchildren, and I have to force myself to tell people that I love them. I shouldn't have to do that, but this is what 34:00this has stolen from me. I'm fifty-eight years old. This has stolen my life from me. It's stolen the fact that I will never have a real relationship with a human being, a man. I could never have a marriage. There's no way in hell I want anybody in my bed. Are you kidding me? I'm like, "What? You want what? You want me to do what? No!"

Milligan: So this is an interesting thing, too, because it seems like there's been more public recognition of the assault culture that has happened and been covered up in the military. In the last couple of years you've seen, more publicly, recognition that there has been this happening, that there's assault that happens and that there's been assault that's been covered up pervasively. 35:00Have you thought much--has that sort of come out more publicly? Has that made an impact on the way that you're able to process this? Is that--.

Starr: I don't know. I just know that for the past thirteen years, I've been in therapy. I go to a doctor. It's--.

Milligan: So are you getting any help from the VA at this point?

Starr: Yes. I get full compensation. I'm 100 percent disability for MST [military sexual trauma] and PTSD.

Milligan: So is the PTSD related to this directly?

Starr: Yes.

Milligan: So they've acknowledged it after the fact.

Starr: Yes.

Milligan: At what point were you able to make that claim that was accepted?

Starr: It's probably been about two years ago.

Milligan: So very recently.

Starr: That doesn't mean that the nightmares stop.

Milligan: Of course not, no.

Starr: Just because you say something doesn't make it go away, and just because you finally admit to something doesn't mean that that's going to fix thirty-something years of damage that was--. It doesn't compensate. You can't put a dollar on--it can't put a dollar on my life. It's ruined my life, my entire adulthood. Any opportunity for me to have a normal life is gone. I'm too 37:00old to start to have a normal life now. I'm too old to have a relationship with a man.

Milligan: I don't think it fixes that at all.

Starr: No. You understand what I'm saying.

Milligan: I do, yeah. I'm interested in the fact, too, that the VA--it sounds like there have been some changes at some point to be able to have a place for you to come and say, "I'm going to make this claim again," and for them to acknowledge it and for there to be a structure for some sort of assistance.

Starr: This is it. Me and you right now, this is it.

Milligan: The place to be able to publicly say.

Starr: This is it. This was the first step. This was the book [The Momentum of Hope: Personal Stories of Moral Injury]. This is the Volunteers of America.

Milligan: Talk to me about that because that's where our first point of engagement for you and I was.

Starr: Yeah. This is The Momentum of Hope, [by] the Volunteers of America. [Ms. Cottrell] and several people approached me at a Volunteers of America meeting, class, at OSU in Oklahoma City. We were talking about historical trauma, and, of course, they knew that I was a veteran because I was there. She wanted to know a little bit about my story, so I just kind of glazed over it or whatever. She asked me if I would write her a short story, so I did.

Milligan: Based on your experience?

Starr: Yeah. Anyway, they ended up publishing it and printing it, and it's in 39:00that book. It just went a couple weeks ago to Washington, DC, so now it's in print. This is the first time I've talked about it verbally; I'm a very good writer.

Milligan: It's different.

Starr: It's different talking about it.

Milligan: So when you and I sat down, one of the things that you explained to me (and maybe you can explain it again) was why this is important to you. I'm talking about the points of, the feeling that the military let you down, but also the fact that you're proud to have served in the military.

Starr: Yes

Milligan: So maybe--how does that work?

Starr: I don't know. It just does. I am a strange person. (Laughter)

Milligan: I don't think that's probably strange at all, but it's complicated. It's very complicated.

Starr: I'm a complicated person. That's what the word is. I'm a complicated person.

Milligan: I would totally agree.

Starr: I'm proud to have served in the Army. I'm proud to have served in the military. I'm proud that I'm a veteran. I'm very proud of that fact. I'm honored. Not everybody takes that as something--my dad was in the Navy. My adoptive father was in the military, George. My grandmother's brother, G. W. 41:00Moxley, who was missing in action for many years, he was the one that was, he was a fighter pilot in World War II. The more I found out about him and stuff, they got his name on a wall in Camden, England, somewhere that I'd love to see. None of our family has ever seen it ever, ever. I'm kind of curious as to why it's over there instead of here, but nonetheless I'd still love to see it. I don't know why I feel like--it's just being in the military is a great honor. 42:00Native American Indian people, this was our country long before it was anybody else's, and I would die for it. I would die defending it. I would die defending it today. I would defend my children and my grandchildren, I would give my life to them. So why wouldn't I be honored to be in the military? That's my question.

Milligan: Yeah. So a lot of it is, well, you just described it. What I hear from you, too, is that wrestling between feeling like personally you were let down by the system of it, while understanding and believing in the core principle of what its function is.

Starr: I felt like I was very--on a personal level, but when you're talking 43:00about the military, you're talking about the military. You're not talking about a corporation even; you're talking about the military.

Milligan: Were you in Fort Sill the entire time that you were in the Army, then?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: Until, what was it, '82?

Starr: Yeah. I don't think that there's enough women or even men that have come forward. I don't think there's enough people that have talked about it. In fact, that's the reason why I'm talking to you.

Milligan: You mean about assault?

Starr: About the assault. About the rape. You say assault; I say rape. I 44:00understand that you say assault because it's probably a nicer term. I'm saying rape.

Milligan: Right, I understand. How common do you think that that was when you were in the military?

Starr: I think it was really common.

Milligan: What gives you that sense?

Starr: Now that I'm older, now that I'm clean and my mind is clean, and now that I can actually see, and I can process the process, and I can see the process in other people, I can recognize it. I can recognize the behaviors. I can recognize 45:00the defenses. I can recognize what they're going through. I know that whenever I went to go to an MST group in Oklahoma City at the VA, there was two women there. One of them had never been in the military, and the other one, I don't know where she came from. It was just like--. I'm a little fruity and flakey and weird and strange and all that good stuff, but this young lady was just really--. It wasn't--I couldn't relate to this group of two other women.

Milligan: That MST group was just made up of two other women?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: Really?

Starr: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It just wasn't--.

Milligan: Is that the only group that's like that within a driving range of you?

Starr: Yeah. I know that it's happened to other people, and I have identified at least one tribal member, a female, in the military that it's happened to. I'm not the only one. I know that. If nothing else, at least I hope that somebody will find their story and be able to tell their story. That's all I want.

Milligan: You mean that by hearing that it happened to you that someone else 47:00will feel that they can speak up about whether it's happened to them?

Starr: Yes, of course. I can't get anything back. There's nothing. There's no way. I can't get anything back. They've already admitted to it. They give me a check every month. For a long time, I was scared to death to say anything because I was afraid they were going to send somebody to kill me.

Milligan: What did make you decide to break your silence on that again? At what point--maybe explain a little bit about how that happened. That might also be a little barrier-breaking because if you had that fear, you know other people have that fear.

Starr: I was terrified.

Milligan: So what made you speak up? Who did you do it to, and how did it happen?

Starr: I was just scared all the time.

Milligan: Do you think it was rational fear?

Starr: I felt like it was at the time.

Milligan: Was this after you had become sober at that point, or was that still while you were using?

Starr: After I became sober.

Milligan: So if you were terrified all the time, how did you move from feeling terrified--

Starr: I thought I was crazy.

Milligan: --from feeling crazy to where you are now, which is having acknowledgment from the military and, it sounds like, counseling and things like that? How did you get from that point to this point?

Starr: Because I--it's just a process. It's a long process. It's been a long, long process.

Milligan: Did someone convince you to go and talk to somebody? Did you file an official claim? Did you go in and talk to somebody? What happened?

Starr: I went, "Well, what are they going to do?"

Milligan: You finally got to the point where you felt--.

Starr: I was tired of being afraid. Even at that point, I was afraid. Even after I filed the claim, I was afraid. I was scared. I was scared they were going to come after me. I was scared they was going to harm my grandchildren or they was going to find out where I lived. Of course they was going to find out where I lived. It was in writing.

Milligan: This would have been just a few years ago, right, two or three years ago?

Starr: Yeah, but I was tired of being afraid. You can only live in fear for so long. Come on, thirty-something years, that's long enough.

Milligan: So that pushed you to the edge to put in a claim with the VA?

Starr: Yes. Yes.

Milligan: How long did it take to work through the process with that?

Starr: Not long.

Milligan: Really?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: So what was the process for them to verify, or did they have any verification?

Starr: They done something. I don't know what they done, and it didn't take them very long.

Milligan: You basically--your part of this was you put in a written claim, and they came back and accepted and moved on. Is that what happened?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: So if somebody else is in a similar position as you, they're harboring this past.

Starr: Don't be afraid. They can't eat you, and they can't take away your birthday. What are they going to do? Cut short me in life? Come on. At this point and time in my life, the only thing I'm afraid of is not being around long enough to finish raising these two. They're almost grown. I've got them halfway 51:00raised. Here on out, it's just gravy and icing. I don't care.

Milligan: So it seems like, whenever possible now, you still work with veterans. Has that been something you've done for a long time, or is that something you've recently reengaged with?

Starr: It's something that I've just started doing because of my job. I work for the Cheyenne-Arapaho tribe. I'm a resource manager. I work for the--I answer to the governor only, however I work for the people. I work for the Cheyenne-Arapaho people.

Milligan: How long have you been doing that?

Starr: Three years. Before, I was working for the people in C3, which is a 52:00district area, a specific area, but now I work for, I cover the nine counties. It's, like, almost twelve thousand people.

Milligan: Is that the entirety of the Cheyenne-Arapaho population then?

Starr: Yes, yes. That's for every program, which includes the veterans program. I can't go in there and switch things up, (I don't do that) but what I do is I go to the veteran themselves. I go to their home, and I find out what they need. I do an assessment. I see if I can put them in touch with somebody from the VA, or if I can get them their benefits, or if I can seek somebody else out for them to come and see them or send somebody to them. That's what I do is I kind of 53:00bridge that gap. I don't do the actual paperwork or anything, but I bridge the gap because most of them know me.

Milligan: How do they know you?

Starr: Because I'm a tribal member and I work here. I'm in the community. I do a lot of community outreach with everybody. I do it through housing. I do it through--I help people with anything and everything they need. Different families, I don't care who they are. I go to their homes. I go to court, to hearings with people when they're going to lose their children. I help them into treatment. I take people to treatment when they need to go to treatment. I'm a recovering addict; that's part of my job. That's what I do. My position is a hard position. It's not something that you just do and let it go and go home. 54:00I'm on call twenty-four hours a day because people have needs twenty-four hours a day. That's what I'm there for. I'm there for them to call me so that I can go and I can get other places to help them, whether it's tribal, state, city, churches in their community, federal, military. On that note, when I find another individual that has been sexually assaulted, raped, whatever in the military, I strongly suggest that they go tell somebody. There's contact information. I've got contact information. I can't make them. If they're not 55:00ready, they're just not ready. Look how long it took me to get ready.

Milligan: Was there anybody in your life that you remembered tried to push you in that direction at any point?

Starr: No.

Milligan: No?

Starr: No, I just had to get ready. I had to go through the whole scenic route to suicide to get there. That's what I call drug addiction and alcoholism. It's the scenic route to suicide. That's what it is. Of course, you couldn't have told me twenty years ago that that's why I was getting high, because of something that happened to me in the military. I'd have laughed at you. I'd have said, "You don't know what you're talking about. You have no idea."

Milligan: Why do you think that?

Starr: Because I was high, and I didn't care what you had to say.

Milligan: You weren't looking for a correlation. Is that what it is?

Starr: No. Are you kidding? A relationship? No.

Milligan: So I don't think you've said yet, but what was your decision to leave the military in '82? Why'd you choose to get out?

Starr: I was done. I was just done. I was done.

Milligan: Was it because you had enough time in it, or was it because you picked up all this baggage and other things in your life?

Starr: I just couldn't look at another fatigue. I couldn't look at another--I couldn't do it anymore. I just couldn't do it anymore. I just started wearing these [camouflage] shirts recently, like in the last year, because I couldn't do 57:00it. I couldn't be around it. I couldn't handle it. I hated the color green, except on money, of course. (Laughs)

Milligan: It all stems back to your rape in 1978, you think?

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: So bringing this back to a roundabout question I had earlier, it seems like maybe that the culture has shifted, at least from the outside, for being able to report sexual trauma, rape, assault, whatever within the military. Do you know--do you feel that that is true? Do you have any way to know if that maybe--.

Starr: I don't think it's true. I don't think it's true. I don't believe that, 58:00not for a minute.

Milligan: You don't think culture would be able to change that much within the military?

Starr: No, it's too male-oriented. When they go through the "don't ask, don't tell" and all that crap, I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. I know how hard it is, and I know how they are. I know how the military operates. It's one way or the other, period. There's no in-between. There's no gray area. You're either a soldier or you're not.

Milligan: So what do you tell women when you talk to them who want to join the military, or do you?

Starr: I don't. I don't advocate for the military.

Milligan: So if someone comes to you and says, "I'm thinking about joining the military. This is what my plan is," do you just ignore the fact that--. It seems to me like you are a very vocal person.

Starr: I'm like, "Okay."

Milligan: But you don't stop and say, "Here's some things to look out for."

Starr: No.

Milligan: No.

Starr: I just tell them, "Be careful because I joined the military to see the world and I ended up at Fort Sill." (Laughs) I say it in a joking manner, but I don't say anything else as far as that goes.

Milligan: Right. That's a tough one.

Starr: I'm not going to say, "Hey, be careful. You're going to go get raped." I wouldn't say that to anybody.

Milligan: I wouldn't think that, anyway, but sometimes people--I don't know. 60:00Sometimes people have--I don't know what I was asking. I kind of know what I was asking with that, but it's more an issue of--.

Starr: You know how many times I've been to the base with this?

Milligan: No.

Starr: Twice.

Milligan: Oh, since you've had your ID since you've been out, you mean?

Starr: Since I've gotten this ID. Twice.

Milligan: And?

Starr: Two times. Every time I go there and I look at these women, every time, and I think, "I wonder if she's okay. I wonder if she's okay. Is she going to be okay? Is that little girl going to be okay until she gets back home?"

Milligan: What do you think the answer is? What's the solution to this problem?

Starr: In a great and wonderful world, the solution would be for each military 61:00base to have its own counselors, its own unit, therapy units, to have its own places for women to go so that they would feel comfortable, or even men, to feel comfortable enough to talk about assault and not have to worry about repercussions, not have to worry about being victimized all over again so that 62:00they can start to work on processing it before they get out, before it ruins their life. That's a perfect world. That'd be a perfect world. You and I both know it's not going to happen. I've never heard of a military base having somebody go in there and talk to the people, go in there and talk to the women, go talk to the men. I've never heard of that, but I think that would be a good thing. It couldn't hurt--

Milligan: That is definitely--yes, it could not hurt.

Starr: --and it wouldn't cost anything, an hour of somebody's time.

Milligan: So where are you going to go from here with all of this?

Starr: Whatever is put in front of me, that's kind of what I do. Whatever is put in front of me is what I do. I deal with that one day at a time, and then something always happens. There's always something really awesome that comes along, and whatever is there is what I do. Whoever comes in front of me, I help. Whatever needs to be done in front of me, I do. It's all I can do, otherwise it gets to be way too much. My job gets to be too much.

Milligan: I understand that you're on call 24/7, as far as helping other people solve problems.

Starr: Yeah.

Milligan: What was the thing that--why did you end up getting clean after all that time?

Starr: The first man that I married was malicious, cruel, but of course "it didn't happen". He just beat me so bad all the time. It was terrible. He 65:00psychologically and physically raped my daughter, his daughter, our daughter. When he did that, I knew that she was going to need me. I vowed to clean up so that I could be there for her. Of course, I didn't realize that cleaning up was going to take me all this time, but I am there for her. I know that I wasn't a good mother. I've got three daughters. I wasn't a good mother. I know that, and 66:00I'm okay with that. I've forgiven myself for that, but I'm an awesome grandmother. I am outstanding. I love it. There's nothing better.

Milligan: Well, is there anything you wanted to cover that we didn't cover? Is there anything you want to talk about that we didn't get the chance to talk about?

Starr: I think we talked about just about everything. I just want someone to know that they're not alone, and don't be afraid. Go tell somebody and talk to somebody. Don't let it take over your life. That's it. Take your life back. Take 67:00your life back.

Milligan: I think it is a really important thing to be able to see you succeeding after struggling for so long because it's very obvious that you're succeeding in life.

Starr: I feel like I'm blessed, and I feel like these are--. Everything that happens to me every day is just grace. I don't deserve any of this, none of it, but you know what? This is not my movie; it's not my play; it's not my book. It's the Creator's. -- I just have to do and go along, like I said, do what's in 68:00front of me and help just that one person. When I help that one person, then I feel okay. I still don't sleep very much at night, but at least if I help that one person, I can sleep a couple of hours. My heart can rest, you know? That's all I want is to be able to have some peace of mind and not hurt anybody else in the process.

Milligan: It seems like you're reconnecting to where you need to reconnect personally, as well.

Starr: Yeah, it's a process. It's a long process; it's called life.

Milligan: It's called life, yeah.

Starr: Life on life's terms. (Laughter)

------- End of interview -------