Oral history interview with Thelma McCarty

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder for the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University, and I'm interviewing Thelma McCarty from the Chilocco class of '55. Thelma, you're a Ponca tribal citizen, live close by here, I guess, in Ponca City, an alumnus of Chilocco, and I look forward to hearing about your memories of the school and a little bit about what you did after you left the school. Thank you for talking with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

McCarty: I was born in Pawnee and grew up in Hominy.

Little Thunder: Okay, that's interesting since you're a Ponca. Can you talk a little bit about what your folks did?

McCarty: I can tell you about them, yes. My mom was non-Indian, and my dad, the Ponca went--. My mom lived in Hominy. She worked for Osages. My dad was down 1:00from Ponca City, and he also worked for Osages. He was a chauffeur. My mom, maybe, cooked or just helped out. That's how they met. That's where I come from. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How about school? What was your experience like? I guess you went to--

McCarty: Hominy.

Little Thunder: --public school for a while in Hominy?

McCarty: Hominy Public School, yes. What was it like? Actually, did you want me to start with the first grade?

Little Thunder: Sure, yeah--memories.

McCarty: I went to the first grade in Quapaw, Oklahoma. My dad went to work in the--there's some kind of mines up there. In the second grade, then, they moved to Commerce, Oklahoma, so I went there. Third grade, we moved back to Hominy, so 2:00I went there until I left to go to Chilocco.

Little Thunder: A lot of moving around, though, the first couple of years.

McCarty: It really was.

Little Thunder: What was that like, adjusting?

McCarty: You really want me to tell you? In the first grade, I don't ever remember being told, "You're going to go to school." I don't ever remember that. All of a sudden one day, Mama said, "You're going to school." So she takes me. We live, like, a block and a half, I remember, from the school there, grade school. She took me there, and school had already started. The kids were already in the room. There I was, and I didn't know what was really going on. The teacher was so sweet. Her name was Mrs. McGriffin, I still remember her name. 3:00Anyway, I was hanging onto my mama all this time. I mean literally, that's what I would do, hang onto her blouse, dress, whatever. They both started talking really good to me, like, "Yeah, you're going to--."

I said, "Oh, Mama!" Then all of a sudden the teacher, Mrs. McGriffin, said, "Oh, lookie, we're going to--" do this or that. I turn around; my mama's gone. I burst into tears. That was very traumatic. That was my first grade. Second grade was better because I was used to--. Oh, by the way, in the first grade, every time at recess, a lot of times I would just look down a block and a half and see our apartment building, and I remember leaving recess. Then I got out the fence, 4:00and I thought, "Oh, I forgot my scarf." I went back in the classroom, got my scarf, took off, and went home. When I got close enough that I thought my mom could see me, I went (gestures being sick). Ain't that awful? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You didn't really want to be at school! (Laughs)

McCarty: Yeah, I wanted her to think I was sick. I played sick a lot that year. That's awful, ain't it?

Little Thunder: And Hominy, you spent a few years in Hominy before Chilocco.

McCarty: Well, from third grade until after my freshman year, I was in Hominy. Do I really tell you how it really was?

Little Thunder: If you feel like it.

McCarty: I felt inferior, I will tell you, because we were Ponca and there were 5:00pretty well-to-do Osage kids there. One thing that I really loved, though, was I was in the band. I always loved music. My mama would play big-band sounds, always had the radio on. I loved music. In the sixth grade, I started playing the snare drum.

Little Thunder: That was unusual, I think.

McCarty: Yes. His name was Mr. Martin, the band director, and he put me in high school marching band in the sixth grade. Of course, I played the drum all the way through until I graduated from Chilocco. Had many contests that we'd go to. 6:00I remember winning several at Pawnee. They'd have some big deal there, Pawnee Bill's Marching--whatever you call it. Anyway, so you want to know when I went to Chilocco, what it was like?

Little Thunder: Yes, what motivated that move?

McCarty: Okay, I will say that I did not know anything about my tribe. I did know a few little words. I know I'm skipping around and everything, but I'm going blank. -- My dad taught us, would teach us different foods in the Ponca language, and they stuck with me. We learned that, but the whole time, I was 7:00raised with my non-Indian, my maternal family, was very large. Back then, you obeyed your parents. You didn't say--. My mom and dad did get a divorce, and my mom remarried. I think they remarried in March after my freshman year, so that summer before my sophomore year, she said, "You and your sister are going to go to Chilocco." "What's that?" "That's an Indian school." I didn't say, "No, I don't--." You just didn't do that. I said, "Okay," but down deep I was just terrified because I did not know how to speak Indian. Not tribal, not this 8:00tribe, that. I didn't know how to speak Indian, so that was my fear. Finally the fall comes. After labor day, September, they take my sister and me to Chilocco. I have no idea why--these are just memories that are really in there.

Little Thunder: So you drove in a car with your mom and your stepdad to go to Chilocco.

McCarty: Right, they brought us up here. Why, I don't know, we got here at night after bed check which was lights out at nine o'clock. They took me to Home Four where the sophomore girls lived. All this time, remember, I'm--

Little Thunder: Anxious.

McCarty: --fearful, yeah, anxious about not knowing how to speak Indian. She 9:00takes--her name was Mrs. [Carrie] Robinson, and she takes me down to a, it's like a dorm room. There's two, four, six--there were, like, six or eight girls in there. Okay, we go down there. The lights are out. She's using a flashlight to show me my bed.

Little Thunder: Because you're separated from your sister at this point. Your sister's gone to another--.

McCarty: Oh, yeah, she went to a freshman dorm. There I was in the dark. The next morning, I was awakened by (mimics sound). To me, that's what it sounded like, just really fast, jittery, stuttery talk. I didn't know what they were saying. I thought, "I knew it. I knew it. They are talking Indian, and I don't 10:00know what they're saying." -- That was my first night in Home Four, starting my sophomore year. Back to the waking up, then later on we go to breakfast. I find out these girls were New Yorkers. (Laughter) They talk very fast. They say, "How now brown cow," and fast.

Little Thunder: They had an accent, and they talked fast.

McCarty: Yes, ma'am, yes.

Little Thunder: And they were all talking English!

McCarty: Yes! That was my first night, my first time being at Chilocco. Where we go from there is--.

Little Thunder: How did you adjust?

McCarty: What I did is I kind of turned on the tough side. I used being in the 11:00band, and my sister and I could also sing. I don't know if you call that tough side or not, but I showed everybody what I can do.

Little Thunder: You had these talents.

McCarty: Right, and dance.

Little Thunder: Because they had the dances on Saturday night, and you were a good dancer.

McCarty: Oh, yeah, Jitterbug, that was a--.

Little Thunder: Did you make friends?

McCarty: Oh, yeah. I'm trying to think of--. Yeah, I made lots of friends. It was good. After my sophomore year, then came my junior year. Moved to another 12:00dorm that housed juniors and seniors.

Little Thunder: Who were your roommates after you moved?

McCarty: Let's see. I don't remember.

Little Thunder: What tribe?

McCarty: I do remember one of them. Mary Grimmett, she was Cherokee. I do remember her. That's pretty well it.

Little Thunder: You were recruited for the band. When did you practice?

McCarty: Early morning, early morning. Breakfast back then was--we got up at five-thirty. Went to breakfast at six-thirty, came back from breakfast, cleaned 13:00our rooms and did our detail, housing detail, shine the floors, whatever.

Little Thunder: What was your least favorite detail?

McCarty: Cleaning the bathrooms. (Laughter) We did some crazy things, some I shouldn't mention.

Little Thunder: If there's a story you can share about what you did for entertainment, that'd be great--

McCarty: Entertainment.

Little Thunder: --or even a memory of a good moment or a moment where you got into mischief. That's fine, too.

McCarty: Mischief? One of the things, I ran around with mostly senior girls, and they taught me how to go nighthawking. That means sneaking out of the dorm. 14:00Actually, our means of nighthawking is we would wait until after lights out, wait a little bit, and we had an employee's son that would park behind Home Five. We would go out there, get in, and just ease out off of the campus. I remember once we went to Ponca City Lake. There was no--we didn't do anything dishonest. We just got out and went to the lake, all just friends. It was just the idea of us being able to do that, the excitement. We come back in, and it was almost time for them to get up. What we did is we just made up this thing. 15:00We went to an empty, actually, a dorm room that no one stayed in. We hurriedly went to our rooms, and we got some stuff from our rooms, like a radio. We took it to that empty dorm. There was about four of us girls, four or five. We went in there, and then lights came on. Then here came the head lady. I won't say who that was back then. She came around, and somehow it was a big deal because there were five girls missing. They actually came and opened that dorm room, and there we all were. We said, "Okay, act like you're asleep," so we all acted like we was asleep. She kind of yelled at us. "You girls! What are you--." Then we said, 16:00"Okay, we just had a slumber party." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So you weren't in as bad of trouble as you would have been?

McCarty: No, we weren't because they thought we stayed in the--.

Little Thunder: Tell me about meeting your husband.

McCarty: Okay. I was a very good friend of Maurene McCarty: , his sister. She was in my grade. Also, she was in the band. He was in the band, but he was a grade under me. Back then, my sophomore and junior year, he was just a pest, just an ornery little pest.

Little Thunder: He liked to tease you?

McCarty: Yeah, he did, just ornery stuff like that. I remember then my senior year, that's when I broke up with a boy I had gone with a couple of years. My 17:00senior year, of course, being in the band, we always marched in the Arkalalah Parade, so we took the band bus up there. For some crazy reason, we sat together, he by the window, and me right next to him just teasing around and stuff. We get there, and everybody leaves the bus, leaves out, getting ready to march. He said something, and then I leaned over and kissed him on the cheek. He said, "Thank you." Big deal. We got out, and I thought I'm just playing with him. We got out, and actually that's when we really started going together.

Little Thunder: He was smitten!

McCarty: Yeah, I guess.

[Pam McCarty: ]She was roommates with his sister, also.

McCarty: Oh, yeah, I was! My senior year I was roommates with his sister.

Little Thunder: Let me introduce the [daughter.] Daughter's name is--.

P. McCarty: Pam.

Little Thunder: This is Pam speaking, saying that Thelma was roommates with the sister. I think you did mention that.

McCarty: Yes, but anyways, that started it.

Little Thunder: You both liked music.

McCarty: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: You had that in common. Did you go to many of the games at school?

McCarty: All of them, yeah, we went to all of them. We had a place that was just, to me, it was just awesome. It was called Flaming Arrow. FA is what we called it, and that's where you go after school and could go for a while after supper and dance and case it out. Back then, you didn't say "kiss." It was "casing it out." (Laughter) There's so much I could go into.

Little Thunder: But there was a lot of strict supervision, too.

McCarty: There was.

Little Thunder: How did you get around that?

McCarty: To be honest, I was punished at one time. That means you couldn't go to the FA. You couldn't go out to any social function or anything. That one evening, I decided, "I've got to go to the FA." Home Five was right there, so I went out the back way, went right over here to the FA. Usually they had matrons in there, too, but they knew who was good and who was bad, who was being punished. That one day, I thought, "I better leave out of here before everybody starts leaving out," so I snuck out, I thought. I started going toward Home Five. I remember this matron, too. She said, "McDonald! McDonald!" I didn't turn 20:00around. I just kept on going, kept on keeping on. They tried to blame me for being over at FA, and I said, "That wasn't me. That was my sister." (Laughter) A lot of time my sister and I favored quite a bit, shape and everything, so that's how I got out of it. I know it sounds crazy, but it was fun.

Little Thunder: There was a half a day for academics, half a day for vocational. What kind of tracks did you study? What were you interested in?

McCarty: Actually, my trade was cosmetology. You go to school, like you said, a 21:00half a day, then cosmetology. We also had a detail. So many times I got the laundry. That was really work. It really was. The laundry, we did all of the sheets, everything for the dorms, all of them. We did some of the boys' clothes--. What we would try to--they had to have a number because they had to know their number to get their laundry back. Basically, what we would try to do is find out certain ones' numbers. (Laughter) It was fun. Yeah, the detail was--you had to make things fun that you didn't really like. Anyway, that was 22:00laundry experience.

Little Thunder: So did you get to--for your cosmetology, in terms of the hands-on training, did you have a--. Was that built into the program?

McCarty: Yes. Basically, the things I remember most are the mistakes I made. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Those are always interesting.

McCarty: I loved it, manicures and doing hair. I just really liked it. We called them--. Let me think a minute. Okay, we had younger girls. One day, it was 23:00before lunch. I remember this because, like I said, the things I remember most are the things that I did wrong. I was cutting her hair. She had very thick Indian hair, is what I called it. Anyway, it was really thick, so you've got to use thinning shears. I was up here at her crown, so I thought it needs to be thinned. I grabbed, I thought were, thinning shears, and it was the real scissors. I cut a big chunk out of her hair. I didn't tell the instructor. I was just--that scared me. I thought, "Oh, my goodness, she's going to have a gang after me when she finds out what I did." It was scary.

Little Thunder: What did happen?

McCarty: Well, she never did come around or anything.

Little Thunder: She just didn't come back to you for another haircut! (Laughs)

McCarty: Yeah. I might have been called Thelma Scissorhands. (Laughter) Basically, it was fun.

Little Thunder: So you and your husband, you meet at Chilocco, and you graduate a year before him.

McCarty: Right. So what we did then is--. He was from Phoenix, and when school was out after my senior year--. Hominy, which is about 2,500, very small place, what are you going to do? What was I going to do?

Little Thunder: No opportunities really to use your cosmetology.

McCarty: Right. I just really missed Sim [Semion], and he was in Phoenix. Well, 25:00at that time, he was in Dallas. They allowed me--I still wonder, "Why did they allow me to go to Dallas where Sim was?"

Little Thunder: Had he enlisted?

McCarty: No, it was after his junior year, and he just went to spend time with his sister in Dallas, she and her husband. I caught a bus. My stepdad took me to Perry; I caught a bus that took me to Dallas. From there, we went by car on to Phoenix where he was from. He had an older sister out there with lots of kids and everything. We ended up getting married that summer after my senior year. To really tell you how it was back then, we had nothing except each other. By 26:00today's standards, that would be unreal to get married. He had fifty cents when we got married, and he had his black bicycle that we'd ride around in Phoenix. Actually, we got married out there in Phoenix on a Pima reservation in a Pima reservation church.

I guess I may as well say that something funny happened there. His oldest sister, she had five children back then. Compared, like I say, to today, it's unreal. She brought Kool-Aid and cookies to the desert. After the wedding as we went out--she had brought rice. She and her little kids started throwing rice 27:00and all that. The Pima ladies were just so--I don't know if they ever heard of that, but they were so excited. They started picking rice up with sand and throwing it. They were throwing rice, too. They just laughed. I always remember that. We decided then--like I said, fifty cents and a black bicycle.

Little Thunder: And none of your family was there?

McCarty: Oh, no.

Little Thunder: Had you told your folks you were getting married?

McCarty: I told them after I did. Then we decided, "We've got to go back to Oklahoma." We came back to Hominy. His dad and older sister and her children 28:00brought us back to Hominy from Phoenix. My stepdad said, "Thelma can go ahead and stay here with us this year because you need to finish your education, Sim," so that's what we did.

Little Thunder: He came home on the weekends?

McCarty: About once a month.

P. McCarty: Hitchhiking.

McCarty: Oh, yeah, they had to hitchhike. He and my brother would hitchhike home to Hominy. So that's the story of our beginning.

Little Thunder: Then eventually did you end up working in cosmetology, or what did you end up working in?

McCarty: I never did work cosmetology. After he graduated, the baking instructor 29:00here at Chilocco got him a job in Oklahoma City.

Little Thunder: At a restaurant?

McCarty: It was in a bakery. He was a baker. We went to Oklahoma City, and we had our first child. We just roughed it. That was the norm. You didn't ask for, you just didn't ask for anything. You made it on your own somehow, so that's what we did. Then we eventually went to work at OSU, both of us. He baked there, and I worked in the medical office. On-campus clinic is what it was. What I did 30:00was, the students would come in, fill out their little slip and what was wrong, their ailment. That's the first time I ever heard of--. The guys came in, and they said, "drain ears." What it was, was wrestlers. OSU is known for their wrestlers, and they'd have big puffy ears. The doctor would--that's what they meant by draining ears. I learned a lot there. That was OSU. From there, we moved to Newkirk.

Little Thunder: Close by Chilocco.

McCarty: Right. In 1963, the head cook here at Chilocco wanted my husband up 31:00here to work, so that's what we did. He went to work up here in 1963, and we had three children by then. He worked here in the kitchen.

Little Thunder: Did you live on the campus, or were you living in--.

McCarty: We still lived at Newkirk, and then years later we did move on campus. I worked as an instructional aide in the dorm.

Little Thunder: What was that like, coming back to--.

McCarty: It was like I knew all the things to look for. (Laughter) I will tell you, though, that one of the scariest things that I ever heard of was sniffing. 32:00I found out that there are--.

Little Thunder: That was starting to happen in the ʼ60s.

McCarty: I guess it was. It was just the scariest thing. Of course, I acted tough like I knew all about it, but it was really horrible. I found out, you know things to watch for: Magic Markers, fingernail polish removers, of course paint. There were some of them pitiful because you didn't have to smell it; you could see it on their face. That was one of the bad memories, I guess you could say.

Little Thunder: Because the student body had kind of changed at that point.

McCarty: Yes. That was where we came to work here in 1963. He always stayed in 33:00the bakery there, and he ended up being head cook. I went to work in the dorms, like I said, and I also worked--what do they call that? Title I or something, a helper in math. I also did that one year, and then I worked at the power plant as a secretary. By 1980 when the school was getting ready to close, I worked in the main office, the greeter, the front desk I guess you could call it.

P. McCarty: Receptionist.

McCarty: Yeah, receptionist.

Little Thunder: What are your memories of first hearing about, rumors, I guess, at first--. Can you talk a little bit about hearing that Chilocco was going to close?

McCarty: It was devastating, absolutely devastating. By then, we lived on campus, and our middle son, Damon, was a student here at Chilocco. He went his senior year here. It was just--.

Little Thunder: Was it rumors at first? How did you find out?

McCarty: I guess it was kind of rumors. Then it got really serious. I remember after, 1980, after the new year and everything because it was serious. My husband, Sim, happened to be lucky enough to get a job at Riverside Indian School. That's in Anadarko. To me, that was like No Man's Land. It was way down 35:00there; I didn't know anybody; changing our children in school. Basically, he had to go down there. He went to work in March, and then the children and I stayed up here until the very last. That was one of the saddest--.

P. McCarty: And by then they had buried one of their sons at Newkirk nearby.

McCarty: Yeah, during that time in 1974, we lost our first son. He was one year younger than Pam. Just a total shock, car accident. That was forty-four years 36:00ago, May 19. You never, ever get over it. That was very sad, of course, but we made it through. Any other--.

Little Thunder: Why is it important for you to come to these reunions?

McCarty: I just look at it as a blessing to be here another year, to see our classmates that are still with us and still come, and all the children, the kids, the students from 1963 until the school closed in 1980 and they graduated. They are our little darlings. That's what we call them, our little darlings. Our 37:00son Damon was the president of the last graduating class. I had an uncle; his name was Louis McDonald. He was in the first graduating class of Chilocco. Then a long span. I can say the saddest day is when we took off for Anadarko. Our daughter drove with us, helped us move. It was very, very sad. He went ahead and worked there. Of course, we made friends down there. He retired after thirty 38:00years. I never did go to work down there at Riverside. As of today--.

Little Thunder: You both came back to Newkirk eventually, or Ponca City?

McCarty: Actually in 2002. We stayed at Anadarko from 1980 until 2002. We had a chance to get one of my aunt's houses there in Hominy, so back where we started. I'm back where I started. We're still in Hominy, and we are blessed with grandchildren, great-grandchildren. They're just awesome. Every year, it's 39:00really something to look forward to. This is home.

Little Thunder: Right.

McCarty: I love it.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you very much for sharing with us today.

McCarty: Oh, you're so welcome. I enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: I did, too.

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