Oral history interview with James Paul Noel

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University, and I'm interviewing James Paul Noel for the Chilocco interview series. James, you are a Chilocco graduate of '65. You served in the Chilocco Army National Guard, and we're going to talk a little bit about your experiences at Chilocco, your service, and some of the things you did after you got out.

Noel: Okay.

Little Thunder: Thank you for talking with me today. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Noel: I was born in Miami, Oklahoma, and that's where I grew up.

Little Thunder: What was Miami like back then?

Noel: Miami back then is kind of like, probably like any other small town. It's probably fourteen thousand, something like that. As I grew up, there wasn't any sports for us because they didn't have Little League and stuff back then. They 1:00had Babe Ruth. I started in that.

Little Thunder: You liked baseball?

Noel: That's the only thing there was. (Laughter) I was fourteen years old when I started.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Noel: Then before that--that's when I came to Chilocco, when I was fourteen.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Noel: My dad, he was a roofer. My mother, she worked in a sewing factory.

Little Thunder: And what was your relationship--you're Cherokee and Choctaw. What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Noel: On either side? Oh, great. I mean they were--. Matter of fact, my grandmother and my grandfather, they both were, well, mixed. One was Cherokee, and one was Choctaw--. They were great, I mean, the old-fashioned-type stuff, you know. Like my great-grandad, they didn't allow us to speak Indian. They did. 2:00They taught us a little bit because--

Little Thunder: Your great-grandfather?

Noel: Yes, and my aunt and uncles, too. They would teach us a little bit, but they wouldn't want us to because--I don't know how to say this. It wasn't right to, or wasn't accepted, put it that way. Since this is on tape I don't know how to say it. Caucasian, maybe, world because they made fun of you. That's the reason I came to Chilocco, too, is I got in so much trouble because the color of my skin.

Little Thunder: Yeah, I was wondering about your public school experiences in Miami.

Noel: Fighting. (Laughs) I fought. I mean I fought probably every day, most likely, or that type of thing. I didn't understand it, but--. I used to sit my 3:00kids down and told them about it, so. They wanted to know why I went here, as well. Basically, I didn't have a choice. It was either get beat up every day or--. I found out about Chilocco. My dad was telling me about it. "There's a place there." I found out about it, and I said, "Well, I got to make a decision. Am I going end up in jail, or am I going to--." So I made that decision to come to Chilocco.

Little Thunder: And you were in--you were fourteen then.

Noel: Right.

Little Thunder: You were in middle school, junior high.

Noel: Yes, and when I got here, of course, you know--. I don't know how to explain it. Native Americans has got a gene in them where--they're quiet or 4:00something. They watch instead of cracking at the first pop. They stand back, watch, and then go on in. -- Met some of the kids here. We went out on campus and stuff like that, and I didn't even go home after that. I didn't want to go home. People say it, but I don't know if I fell in love with this place, but I got treated right. I wasn't called names anymore, and I could walk outside knowing I'm not going to have a fight today. Course, I got in sports and everything like that.

Little Thunder: Where did you--your home, your dorm was--.

Noel: My dorm was, I believe it was Home [Two], I believe--

Little Thunder: Home Five.

Noel: --then Home Six. The other one burnt down, or they tore it down, but Home 5:00Six is still there. All the dorms were alike. Like Home Six and Home Five for the girls, same outlook.

Little Thunder: Same structure.

Noel: Yeah.

Little Thunder: How'd you like your roommate?

Noel: Oh, man. You had several of them until you meet some and then they let you change. Well, back then I only weighed probably about a hundred and fifteen pounds. I was in with some Cheyennes, five of them. Every day I'd go in there, and they'd speak Cheyenne. They would say this name every time I'd come in and they'd look. One day I said, "Look, can you tell me what you're doing? I know you're calling me a name." He goes, "Husky. You're husky." So that was my name, 6:00was Husky. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: They were teasing you.

Noel: Then you ended up with them if they came back. Most of them did.

Little Thunder: What were some of the classes that you enjoyed?

Noel: The classes, every one of them. Not one I didn't enjoy. Like I said, it was a new life.

Little Thunder: Half day was in school, and the other half vocational, right?

Noel: Was a trade.

Little Thunder: What trade, what path did you investigate?

Noel: Printing. Printing. I like to, I guess you call it, create. In there, outside work come in. Back then they had these ham radio things, and they would bring in pictures and stuff. Course, it wasn't any good, so then I'd redo it with my artwork talent. I'd do that. As a junior, you're not supposed to go into 7:00this one room because that's for seniors. Well, I met this guy. He was a post-grad, and I told him, I said "Look, I want to do this for life. I really like it." He goes, "You're not supposed to be in here, but the instructor's busy. I'll show you what to do." Well, he got a job in Arkansas City or somewhere, so they had to have somebody run the machine and camera. I said, "I know how." I got to go in there, and that's what I done. I printed the annuals.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Noel: They entered some of my stuff at Oklahoma City, and I won some awards on my printing.

Little Thunder: Because part of it was, like, graphic, you were actually doing some drawing, some original drawing as part of the printing.

Noel: Right, yeah, they were bringing that stuff in, and they weren't artists. I'd redo them.

Little Thunder: Well, how early did you start drawing?

Noel: Probably since I could walk. I got some stuff that my brother found in my 8:00aunt's garage that I done in the third grade. It was painting on glass. It was four pictures. He found them for me and gave them back to me. Gave them to me, put it that way.

Little Thunder: And in the public schools, you had a rough time with the kids, but did any of the teachers notice your abilities?

Noel: Oh, yeah, matter of fact, there was one. I done murals on--they had chalkboards, like, three walls or so. I think I was in probably the third or fourth grade. Well, I took colored chalk, and (it was Christmas) I did Santa Claus and his sleigh and a reindeer. When it was Thanksgiving, I done turkeys, stuff like that, put them in chalk. I went on. I mean, never had art lessons. To this day, I've never had it. They kind of pushed me toward it. What really got 9:00me thinking somebody really cared about you, when I was in junior high, I was around the kids that could care less about living or doing anything. When I look back, I thought, "Man, I'm glad I got away from them." This teacher, she took me aside. She goes, "I'm going to put you in another class because I think you got some ability that--." She put me in a class with the honor roll.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow.

Noel: I'm making Fs, see. Didn't care about anything. She put me right there in front of her desk, and I come out with a C average that quarter. She said, "See, I told you."

Little Thunder: She recognized your talent.

Noel: Yes. That's what happened here. I roomed with guys that were in honor roll and stuff like that, and I wasn't going to sit there and be an F student. They helped me, really. I told this guy not too long ago that roomed with me--he was on honor roll, and now he lives in Hawaii. I said, "One thing you done for me was show me that I could actually use my mind." He goes, "Well, I never knew 10:00that." I go "Yeah you had something up in your brain. You helped me with my school work and to figure it out. I thank you for that."

Little Thunder: That's neat. You mentioned you love sports, especially baseball, so at Chilocco you got the opportunity to do some sports.

Noel: Yeah, I played--I came in as a sophomore. My brother was here, too. He was a pitcher.

Little Thunder: Now, is this younger brother?

Noel: He was older than me but he had to make up because, like me, he quit school. He soon was with me. Anyway, when I came here, they had a junior playing second base. I went out for second base; that's all I've ever played. Of course, [I] hadn't been here before, so they chose him. That's my good way of saying I got beat out. I'm sitting on the bench; we're playing Ponca City. I'm sitting on 11:00the bench, and this guy gets up there. We're needing runs; he struck out. He got up there again, and he struck out. I'm sitting there kicking dirt, and I hear the coach say, old Coach [Kenneth] Moore, he goes, "Noel: ," like that. I go, "Uh-oh. What?" He goes, "Get your helmet on." My old heart starts going (makes rapid beating sound) because I don't know what I'm going to do. He goes "Get your bat," and he told that other guy, "You go sit the bench." I'm thinking, "This guy's going to beat me up after this." (Laughter) I got my stuff, and he goes, "Look, we need runs. Can you hit the ball?" I go, "Sure." He goes, "Will you hit the ball?" I go, "I sure will." He goes, "Then get up there and do it." I knock in a run, and I never sat the bench after that.

Little Thunder: Wow, that's great.

Noel: I never struck out in my three years. Now, I haven't proof on this, but the guys tell me that I made all-conference, second base. I don't have any proof 12:00on it. I thought I'd make it because I never struck out and I had a good batting average. That was my senior year, my good average was junior. They told me that. They go, "You know you made all-conference." I go, "Well, I don't know," because we graduated May 18, I think it was. I went to my room and took my clothes to the armory. The next morning, we left on the bus, so when they handed out those things, I wasn't there. It was, like, twenty years before I came back.

Little Thunder: Oh, my goodness.

Noel: So I don't know. They told me I did, so I said, "Well, that's good." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Before you left Chilocco, you decided to join the National Guard.

Noel: Yeah, I was sixteen. Some friends--

Little Thunder: And what were the reasons for enlisting?

Noel: Well, I really didn't know what it was. My friends, there's four of them, they go, "James, why not go down here and join the Guard unit?" I go, "What is 13:00it?" They go, "Well, it's a military thing. It's kind of like going to ROTC." I said, "Well, I know what that is." They go, "You transfer to the military." I said, "Okay." I'm sixteen years old. I'm going with them. I don't know what I'm doing, really. We go over, and he goes, "Bubba, wait. You got to lie about your age." I go, "Why?" "You got to be seventeen." "Okay." So we go in there and fill out the papers. We're all seventeen. We step back; we take the oath; we get our uniforms and everything. Of course, they pay you. Well, about two months, they come back, call me in. They go, "You're not seventeen." "Oh, yeah, I am." They go, "We sent papers to your parents, and they won't sign them because they said you're not seventeen." (Laughter) I go, "What do I do now?" "Turn your stuff 14:00in." I go, "Okay," so I did. He goes, "When you turn seventeen, come back." A couple months later, I turn seventeen. I went back.

Little Thunder: Did you go on back to school then?

Noel: Yeah, I was still in school, yeah. I spent three years here. Then we graduated, and we was on a bus to basic training. That's another story. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Oh, I'd like to hear it, if you don't mind.

Noel: Oh, okay. There's twenty-two of us. We get on the bus, and we go to Fort Polk, Louisiana. When we get there, they put us in a certain room, which I thought that was what they always done. This sergeant comes in, and he goes, "Everybody's been waiting on you guys to get here." We're thinking, "What?" I go, "Why?" They go, "Well, they're all Easterners. Lawyers and doctors and all 15:00that stuff. They've never seen an Indian. They think you guys ride a horse and got tipis and war paint and bows and arrows." We all had hair slicked back. We were greasers, they call them, with slicked-back ducktails.

Little Thunder: Yeah.

Noel: When we go in there, of course, first thing they do is give you a haircut. They go, "How do you want it?" I said, "Oh, a little off the side." They go, (mimics electric razor sound). You come out like an onion. (Laughter) Anyway, he says, "What we want to know is, are you guys prejudiced?" We kind of like laugh around, you know. We've heard that before. They got all these photographers there from the newspaper, and they're taking our picture and interviewing us because--.

Little Thunder: Because it was such a big contingent from Chilocco.

Noel: Yes. They go, "We're going to go take you to your [barracks] and meet your sergeant." "Okay." They go, "By the way, he's black." We'd never seen a black 16:00person, so we didn't know because basically that's what they called us. We go in there, and here's all guys. We walk down a hallway, and they're looking at us. We was the first Indians they'd ever seen, and they start talking. We go in the sergeant's room, sit down. No chairs, so we sit down, cross our legs. He goes, "Boy, you guys are Indians, ain't you? You even sit like Indians." (Laughs) He goes, "We're going to bring your sergeant in." He comes in, and, of course, he is a little bit darker than us. We all looked kind of like when they looked at us, because it's the first time I ever--. He said, "We're going to divide each other up. Now, these guys have never seen an Indian, so you want to watch yourself." When they take us to our barracks, which is bottom floor, top floor, 17:00and your bunks, we go over there in our bunks, and we're sitting there. -- They come over there, and they go, "Hi." We don't say nothing.

We know they're coming over there, so we don't say anything. They go, "You speak English?" Don't say anything to them. "You just talk Indian? You got any horses, buffalos," and all that. He just went through the whole spiel because it's not they were ignorant, they just didn't know. They go, "Well, you sure you can't speak English?" We go, "No, we don't speak English." (Laughter) He goes, "Where'd you learn to speak English?" I said, "We went to a boarding school for Indians. They taught us good English. We live in a white-man world, they said, so here we are. One thing about it: you guys got the same clothes we do. They're 18:00all green." (Laughs) That's basically what happened there. Then you bond together, and you're all one, watch each other's back, so forth. Then whenever I got out of basic in Louisiana, they sent us to Fort Ord, California to finish some of our training right there on the beach at Monterey Peninsula.

Little Thunder: Had you been to Louisiana before?

Noel: No.

Little Thunder: So what was--you got a chance to go off base once in a while.

Noel: Oh, yeah.

Little Thunder: What were your impressions?

Noel: It was big olʽ tall trees. If they knew you was military, they knew you had money and you were going to spend it because every first of the month, you got paid, see. I just went up there to see what it was about, and that's about it because where I come from, in Miami, there wasn't nothing like what was up there.

Little Thunder: Right, and California, same way.

Noel: Right.

Little Thunder: You've never been--.

Noel: Probably shouldn't say this on tape, but, you know, you read about these people that walk the streets, you know. We got a cab, and we told him, says, "We want to go to--." I think it was Market Street or something. He goes, "No, you don't want to go there." We go, "Yeah, we do. We heard about it in a book." He goes, "All right, but I'm not stopping." So he takes us down there. We see what we want to see, and we go, "Yeah, go on." I mean, we hardly saw TV here. There's one here, newspapers, something like that. When Kennedy got killed, we got to see TV quite a bit.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's right. You were--what was that like, that moment when 20:00you found out?

Noel: Shocking. Everybody liked John, John Kennedy. We'd gone to our printing class. We wasn't there five minutes, and they go, "You need to go back to your dormitory." We didn't know why. Everybody went to the dormitories. Course, our guidance counselor we had there in the floor there, chairs, and he told us, "President Kennedy's been assassinated." We were shocked. He goes, "They caught the guy who done it." They said they was going to take him Sunday, I believe it was, to escort him somewhere. We're sitting down there, and they go, "James, you going down?" I go, "No." "Why?" I said, "Well, I don't know. I had this thing, 21:00and it said, 'Somebody's going to kill him.'"

Little Thunder: You had an idea. You had that--you saw that.

Noel: Yes, and I said, "They're going to kill him, and we're never going to know the truth. I'm not going down there." They come running upstairs, and they go, "James, they shot him. They killed him."

Little Thunder: Wow.

Noel: I said, "I told you." Yeah, I say it was a shocking moment, there. I never did believe he'd done it, Oswald, because the military-type thing, I knew he could shoot a rifle. He was in the Marine Corps, and in any military, the first thing they do is train you with a rifle. Years later, they opened up that bookstore, so I was one of the first ones to go through it. I went up there to 22:00the floor.

Little Thunder: And this was in Dallas?

Noel: Yeah, in Dallas.

Little Thunder: You were walking through?

Noel: Yeah, and--where he was at had a glass around it, but all the windows were the same. I'm sitting there looking at it, and I see this sign up here, and the stoplights, and a tree. I'm looking this way, and I'm talking to myself. "Why didn't you shoot him here? It's your best shot." I'm thinking, "You couldn't have made a getaway if you didn't because you're trained to shoot that rifle." First shot, kill, you know." I act like I was shooting a rifle, like that, and I go, "Bang. Bang." I said, "He got him. He done it. It's easy. It's right here." This guy taps me on the shoulder. He goes, "Now, what did you say?" I turn around. Guy had a nameplate or something on him. He goes, "What did you just say?" I said, "I was just talking to myself." -- Anyway, that convinced me that 23:00Oswald done it.

Little Thunder: Having seen that room for yourself. What did you get your specialized training in, in the military? What was--

Noel: Infantry.

Little Thunder: Infantry.

Noel: Infantry, rifleman. They teach you everything, how to use bayonet, karate.

Little Thunder: But you didn't go to Vietnam?

Noel: No, we were, as they say, trained to go, but they didn't call us. They gave us the alert. They trained us hard. As you see today, the only thing over there are Reserves. Those Reserves, they have got just because they don't have a draft anymore. I was telling my wife, anymore, I wouldn't make it in the Army 24:00because of the sophistication of the weapons. I said, "You got to have a college education to pull a trigger. Those things can hit a gnat a hundred yards away."

Little Thunder: Very complicated, yeah.

Noel: I said, "And they can wipe out anything. -- My brother went to Vietnam, come back. There's five brothers. We all served: Navy, Army, and Marine.

Little Thunder: Did you meet your wife at Chilocco?

Noel: No, I met her where I was working at.

Little Thunder: So after you served in the service, when you left the service, then what happened?

Noel: They transferred me to a unit. My brother was getting ready to go to Vietnam, and I only had about a few more months left. Like I said, it wasn't good at the time for me. We were sitting there, and I told him, I said, "You 25:00know what? I'm just going to re-enlist in the regular Army." He goes, "Why?" I said, "I just want to." He goes, "You can't." I go, "Why?" He was the older brother, you know, and when you're in an Indian family, the older one is the one that--. He goes, "Because of this, I'm going to Vietnam. Your brother's in the Army. You got two young boys. You got four sisters. Where's Mom and Dad? We don't know. Who's going to raise them? You're going to take care of them." I said, "Okay," so I did. They turned out pretty good. One of them was a doctor, and the other one worked for the sheriff's department and security guard at the college for twenty years. Turned out real good.

Little Thunder: So you were kind of at home with the kids after?

Noel: Yes, after that, until they got on their own. They were young when I--.

Little Thunder: That's a big responsibility.

Noel: I know it. Tell me. I had to have a house, a home for them, get a job.

Little Thunder: Were you able to find a printing job?

Noel: No, I didn't find one.

Little Thunder: Because you were back in Miami.

Noel: Yeah. They had shops, but they didn't have any openings. I went for a mill, a feed mill thing. Worked there. Finally something came up, and I'm still working at that same place.

Little Thunder: Is that right? Oh, my goodness.

Noel: Twenty-something years. Now, I did move to Tulsa and worked up there at a great big olʽ plant, twenty-four hour plant. I worked there. Then my kids got older and started graduating. I said, "Well, I'm going back home," so I went back home.

Little Thunder: Well, tell us just a little bit about your artwork, too, because that's been a big thread of your life that you've kept going since you were little.

Noel: I done that, and there's this artist in town. His name's Charles Banks 27:00Wilson, and he does Native American work, just about anything, portraits--. I'd never seen anybody like him, and I grew up knowing him. Everybody did in that town. I had a whole slew of--drawings. One day I called him, and I said, "Charles?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "I have a drawing here I'd like for you to look at. He says, "Okay." I said, "It's of my dad." He goes, "All right, bring it on up." I took it up to his studio, and I said, "Charles, since we know each other, I want you to critique these. When I put it here, I don't want you to say, 'Oh, that's good, James.' I want you to critique it for me because I want to draw real people." He goes, "Okay." So I set it down there. He looked at it, and he goes, "How'd you do this, and how you do that?" I told him. He goes, 28:00"Well, that's your dad because it looks like him." I said, "Yeah." "You kind of rounded his jaw." We just talked about stuff like that.

He goes, "Yeah, you done a good job on it." I said, "So what do you think?" He goes, "Well, just keep on drawing." He told me what to do, like get shirts and put them on the sides [of a chair] and stretch them to learn how to do the wrinkles. He goes, "Draw what you see. Draw what your eyes tell you, and it'll come out here." I said, "Okay." He goes, "First of all, I'm going to tell you something. What you're going to do is one nobody really wants to do because the critics are going to be out there, especially your family. Don't ever ask them; they're the worst critics. They'll go, 'Well, that don't look like him,' or something like that, and here you are." So that's what I done. I just started. I started entering art contests, started winning. I didn't do it for the win, I 29:00just wanted my work out there because, I mean, I get paid for it. Then I started on my Native American stuff, and they would always bring that to me. That's basically how I do all this stuff. I find it. Wes [Studi], I really liked the character he's played.

Little Thunder: Yes, you showed me a really nice drawing from Last of the Mohicans, I think, yeah.

Noel: I've done I don't know how many drawings.

Little Thunder: You've had commissions. Tell us about your Heisman.

Noel: Oh, my Heisman stuff was from Jason White. I've done Billy Sims, Steve Owens, Billy Vessels. Right now, the other two, I haven't got permission. I drew the picture, but I got to get--. What I do, I give them a picture, and then they in turn, they'll sign something. Yeah, I've done all that. I worked with a guy 30:00that done nothing but OU posters. Name is Ted Watts. He's originally from Oklahoma, but he done all sports. We got together one day. He needed some stuff, and I had it. He goes, "Why don't you loan me that?" I go, "No." He goes, "Why not?" I said, "Well, that's stuff I've collected." He goes, "What do you want in trade for that?" I said, "I don't know how to paint." He goes, "What?" "I don't know how to paint." I said, "I can draw, but I can't paint." So what he done, I loaned him my stuff for a year. He'd call me up, and I'd go to his studio. He'd lock the door, and he'd start painting, telling me what to do. It took me five years just to get something good.

Little Thunder: Well, that's pretty quick, actually, I'd say, for an apprenticeship. So you paint now, too?

Noel: Oh, yeah, I paint. I'd say one of the things that happened in our family 31:00(I talk about it a lot) was whenever Charles Banks Wilson was doing the pictures for the state capitol. He done Sequoyah and--Jim Thorpe. He asked me to do Jim Thorpe, but I knew he wasn't going to use me. He was going to use body pieces. He does that. I do the same thing. I turned that down, so he asked my dad to pose for Sequoyah. My dad did. It's hanging in the state capitol.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Noel: It's about, what, eight or nine foot tall.

Little Thunder: Yes.

Noel: Just the face, now, because the turban, every Cherokee wore. The robe he's got on is in the historical side in a case, and he had Cherokee moccasins. All that was--. Anyway, he done several of them, pictures of him, and he gave them 32:00to me because my dad passed away. He gave me those pictures, which I still got because he passed away. Then he asked me to pose for him in the murals. He done those four murals in the state capitol. I done those, and I posed for the Cherokees and Creeks and several others. He sent me the negatives and the pictures that I posed for because when my kids would take them to school for show-and-tell, they'd call them liars. "That ain't your--." I told him, I said, "I'm getting tired of them calling my kids liars." He goes, "We'll fix that." He said, "Bring them pictures back." I took them back; he wrote on there that my dad's name was Joe. "Joe Noel: posed for Sequoyah's face. Joe Noel: 's face, 33:00son's hair," like that. He'd date it. He got those pictures out, and he signed each picture for my kids. But I'm hanging in the state capitol. I was telling them right there, I said, "I'm representing Chilocco. I'm up there now. How many of you guys are up there? How many of you guys are up there?"

Little Thunder: That's right! At the state capitol. That's a great story.

Noel: Another one was, it's not about art, but it's about a young man. I call him a young man. He's the same age as me, but he passed away. His name is Jim Squirrel, Jr. out of Stilwell, Oklahoma. He was one them that we went to basic together. Then we went to AIT [advanced individual training] in California. Well, we had this thing, what they call escape and evasion. They'd take you out there at nighttime, and you got to make your way back to this place. There's people waiting on you. Well, there was four of us. If you got caught, they 34:00stripped you. Made you eat this oatmeal that had salt and stuff in it, and they'd put you in a box. Might throw a snake or something in there with you, and you were in there for a long time. Anyway, we made it back. These guys, they started running.

Little Thunder: Without being caught.

Noel: Yeah. I told them, I said, "Wait a minute, guys. Look at them! These guys are out there smoking cigarettes. You can hear their voice. When they go that way, we're going this way." I took them through, and we made it. What we done, we got there, and there's guards out there. They was going back and forth like this. I said, "We'll time them. All we got to do is get across that deal, and we're safe. Take your boots off." They go, "Why?" I said, "You run faster without them. Throw them over your shoulder. When I say 'go', we go. Every man for himself." And all of us made it.

Little Thunder: You kind of led them in.

Noel: Yeah. We go in this big olʽ amphitheater. It's got a two-way mirror thing or whatever you call it. We're all sitting there, and they talk about what they done, who they caught. They brought them in there, and they put them in a chair and tied their hands together and put electrodes on them. They'd ask them a question, and if they didn't answer it, they'd turn it on. They'd go (mimics electricity sound) like that. We're sitting there, looking. They brought this Navajo guy in. His name's Thomas--I can't remember. They go, "Hey, there's Thomas. He passed out when they--shot him with medicine. He passed out. We had to hold him up." -- (Laughter) All the others, they broke down. All the others did. I mean they broke down, crying, telling on everything. That's when they would tell us, "See, we got ways." They bring this one in. Here come Thomas. We go, "Thomas." We're all sitting there, edgy. Thomas didn't say a thing. He 36:00didn't tell them nothing. He took them shocks. They took them out, and we looked at each other and go, "Dang. Maybe those shocks done him like that needle."

He--true to the thing. He didn't say nothing. They go, "Well, we didn't break him." They, "Hate to tell you, we've got one more." It was Jim Squirrel. Jim Squirrel was, I'm not going to say "typical" because that don't sound right, but he was quiet. He would listen to you. He'd look up like that. If you wanted to do roughness, he'd be rough with you. He was just that way. You couldn't get nothing out of him unless he wanted to tell you. We go, "They're bringing in Squirrel," like that, and the guys go (gestures). We're all sitting back, and they put Squirrel down in there. Already busted his lips. He was on that thing, 37:00and they put that stuff on him. They asked him, they go, "You're Indian, aren't you?" He goes, (lowers his head). I don't know what happened, but he was just like this (head lowered). He shook his head. They go, "Your name's Squirrel. Are you a squirrely Squirrel?" He shook his head. He goes, "By the way, there's a bunch of Indians in your unit. You know that, don't you? They don't like you." He didn't say nothing--because he knows what's going on. He goes, "You know they don't like you? Well, we'll get through with that." He goes, "Where do you live?"

He sits there--. They go, (gestures an electric shock). "What's your mom's name?" (Gestures an electric shock) What's your dad's name?" (Gestures an electric shock) They was going through a whole spiel with olʽ Squirrel, and they was putting the juice to him because his little fingers just went like that 38:00(gestures an electric shock). They go, "What rank are you?...Last time, where do you live, and where do you come from?" He looks up, and he goes, "Okay." We're looking. They hand him a piece of paper about half this size and a pencil, and they loosen his arm. Olʽ Squirrel, he's writing, about like that. He folded it up and handed it to this guy, and we're all sitting there. They take him out. They turn the lights on. This sergeant gets in front of us. He goes, "See? We break them all, and if they don't do it, they eventually do. This guy thought he was going to do it, and he didn't. Sergeant, hand me that paper." He goes, "But, but Sarge--." He goes, "Hand me the paper." He goes, "Okay." "Here's where he 39:00lives and what he said." We're all sitting there. I can't say it on tape, but he goes, "F you." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: He played them. He pranked them. Good. (Laughs)

Noel: Anyway, they awarded him certificates, and the last four weeks, all he did was sit in bed and go the theaters. Didn't have to do--.

Little Thunder: Been through the--

Noel: Because he--yeah.

Little Thunder: --interrogation, yeah.

Noel: He didn't do nothing. That's something else.

Little Thunder: Yeah. Well, why are the Chilocco reunions important to you?

Noel: Oh, well, they're like brothers and sisters. To us, they are. It don't matter how old they are or what--. This is home, and you come back. That's it.

Little Thunder: How about your activities with veterans groups and any Native veterans groups?

Noel: Just powwows and stuff like that. They have the veteran dances and stuff like that, and they have a breakfast here. All your tribes, where I go, you're something. We're nothing, really, but they treat you. They call you out there and give you gifts while you dance and stuff like that. They gave us medals and stuff like that. Then the Cherokee Nation, which I'm enrolled in, each month they have veterans come up there, and they read a thing, give you a medal and a ribbon and a certificate for serving in the military. My three brothers and me got to go up there to that. They gave us a thing. Out here, they do the same 41:00thing, and stuff like that. I don't know if you've seen our jackets. I wore this one today because this is a Seminole veterans--

Little Thunder: Oh, neat, yeah!

Noel: --because of Mitch. Then tomorrow, I'll wear the Chilocco watch that they gave to us. Yeah, I really like it, to get out there. Like I say, it don't matter who. It's just home. That's all there is to it. They'll tell you. Every one of them out there will tell you this is home, even though when you go back to the other home, to come back here to see all this. We all knew what went on here and everything, the good and bad. I had an interview from a lady from New 42:00York. She was writing a book. I don't know how she got a hold of me, but she came to the door and told me who she was. She showed me all her stuff, and I go, "Okay." She done this same thing. She opened up with, "I heard you guys got beat." I said, "Is this what we're going to talk about?" She goes, "Well, it's part of what happened in that boarding school." I said, "I went there for three years. I didn't see anybody get beat. I didn't see anybody get mistreated. We had respect for ourselves."

It's like I say, is that when we left, we're representing Chilocco out there. We're representing the Indian people. I said, "Chilocco done a lot for us, so now we're trying, in turn, doing for Chilocco." Everything I do, you know--. "You came through Chilocco." Well, you know, it's kind of like this: "What'd you do?" We told them. "Education, that's what we got." It's a different story. When 43:00I brought my wife up here the first time, she looked, and she goes, "This where you lived?" I go, "Yeah, I lived in those dormitories over there, and women lived over there. We socialized around the oval and stuff like that, and they had these whistles. They would stand at one place like that. If you got too close, they'd blow that whistle. And they had these flashlights when it kind of got dark."

I said, "Man, I still hear that whistle." (Laughter) I said, "You went to all the social events." They had a dance thing you could go to. They had activities for you here, all kinds of things, even for the different groups. They had the groups. When they brought the Navajos in, they weren't too--. Their language, they didn't know the English language. They knew the old ways, which is good. I like it. I tried to teach that to my kids, the old ways that I know, that I was 44:00taught. I'd just sit and listen to them talk. It was amazing--different languages and stuff like that. They were young. Some of them were just real young kids, come here and went all the way through.

Little Thunder: You were welcoming to them?

Noel: Oh, yeah. I liked even the ones that were my age and so forth. They taught me some of the words. We'd sit around and talk, and we called each other "olʽ Navajo". "You olʽ Navajo!" And they'd go, "You olʽ Cherokee!" It's in good spirit, you know, good spirit. -- Most guys out here, they'll go, "When we got in basic, we already knew how to fix a bed the way they done it. We knew how to 45:00sweep the floor, mop it. We knew everything. They didn't teach us anything. We taught them." (Laughter) I said, "Yeah, you know what? Everybody needs to go through a school like this. You learn to be independent. There's no Mom and Dad." The only ones Mom and Dad was those guys that stayed there at night. "You made your own decision, and if it was the wrong one, then you paid for it." You hoped it was the right one, and you learned to--. Education is going to be what's going to keep you going. I said, "That's what I learned, anyway. If you learned anything, you learned that. It ain't going to happen around education, so you better buckle down."

That's what I done. That's I tell my kids, too. I said, "You know, the world's changing real quick, so you better get in there and bust your head and get it done. One thing, everybody's going to look at you and you don't realize they're 46:00wanting you to fail. They're looking for you to fail. That's my one thing. I knew that, and I didn't want to fail. I tried hard as I could." This is where it all happened, right here. That's why we come back. That's why we come back. Did I tell you, whenever we--everybody gets this and that. When we was sitting there, it's nighttime, about eleven o'clock. Bed check was at ten or ten thirty. Lights were out at ten thirty, I think. We're laying there in bed, and everybody talks, you know. This one guy goes, "I'm hungry!" I said, "I am, too!" Another guy says, "Yeah, it's a long ways until the morning. I'd like to have a 47:00hamburger." I said, "Me, too! Where you going to get one?" "State line." I go, "Gah!"

It kind of rained that day, and so we look at each other. "Let's go. Anybody got any money?" This guy goes, "I got some." "Okay." I said, "We're all broke." We were in Home Six on the second floor, so we go on down the back way, out the stairs. We went out the back, went down by the armory, behind it, waiting on cars to come by because every once in a while, one come by. Then we crossed the wheat fields, and there was the state line. There was a gas station with a restaurant-type thing. You could eat in there and everything. We knew it. We go in there. They go, "You guys from school?" "Yeah." "Do they know you're out?" 48:00"No." Says, "Oh." "But we're hungry." He goes, "Well, what do you want? You got money?" "Yeah. We want hamburgers and fries and a pop." He goes, "A pop?" "Yeah, you know, soda pop." He goes, "Okay." He fried up some hamburgers and fries and got them on the counter.

All of a sudden he goes, "Your man here is from the school." "Oh." So we ran around there and hid behind the counter. A guy walks in. He goes, "You seen any of our students out here anywhere today?" He goes, "No, haven't seen any." He goes, "What's all this food?" He says, "Oh, lots of truck drivers, they call it in, and we get it ready for them. They'll be in in a minute." We're down there, listening. He goes, "All right," so he takes off. When he does, we take out the back and don't pay for our food. It's still sitting there. We go running across 49:00the--gravel road there and them wheat fields, and it's muddy. We're laying down there because here's that pickup truck with olʽ Croscoe, (we called him Hook because he had a hook) and he's got this great big olʽ spotlight, him and a couple of guys. I mean, they were spotlights. They was going through them. We was laying down like this. When they went the other way, we go, "What are we going to do?" I said, "I don't know, but I think we're going to go to jail! We didn't pay for that food!"

We're sitting there, and we didn't know what to do because of them spotlights. I said, "He's looking for us, really." So I told them, I said, "Hey, guys, we're going to have to kill--a lamb." They go, "What do you mean?" I said, "This guy's name is James Hobucket, and he didn't do anything wrong." To them, he's just a follower. We go, "Hobucket, you're going back." He goes, "I ain't going back!" I 50:00said, "Yeah, you are, because they know you won't do anything. We've been in trouble before, and they're going to get us." Everybody else says, "You're going back, Hobucket. Here's the money because you don't pay him, we're going to go to jail. They'll ask you questions, and don't you tell them our names or nothing." He goes, "Okay." He gets up; he raises his hands. I said, "Put your hands down!" (Laughter) "Policeman's standing there and going to search you. Get your hands down. Go that way so they'll go with you, and we can take off." So he goes out that way.

Course, you hear them grabbing him, and we take off toward the dormitory. We go back the same way because, you know, afraid to get caught. We go back upstairs, jump into bed. Hobucket ain't there. I go, "Where's Hobucket?" "I don't know." 51:00We pull the sheets over us, and we're laying there with all our shoes on, dirty clothes, mud everywhere. We don't know that because the lights are out, see. Pretty soon, the light comes on. Olʽ Croscoe, he goes, "All right, boys, get up." "What? We're sleeping." He goes, "You ain't sleeping. Get up." We got up. I go, "Wow! We got mud all over! Look at them sheets!" The tracks were coming down the hall where we--. (Laughs) It's like laying out a piece of bread, "Here it is. Come get it." He goes, "You boys thought you'd get away with it, didn't you?" We had to go to the office, and they gave us the one-two-three.

They go, "Your punishment is forty hours. You got forty hours each. You're going to start with the latrine." They called it latrine. "We're going to start with that. You're going to scrub the floors with a brush. Then you're going to put 52:00polish on them with a rag. Then we're going to start on stairways, until all forty hours." We got them worked off. I came back. I graduated in 1965, and I brought my family up here in 1980. The lady (she just passed away) was the matron there on nights sometimes. They trade off and on. Anyway, I walked into the office there to get me a pass so I could be on campus and eat. I walked in there. She turned around, and she looked. She goes, "James Noel: ! What you doing back here? I know!" She got that clipboard. She goes, "You owe me thirty hours!" I go, "What?!" She goes, "Yeah, it's right here. You owe me thirty hours." I go, "I worked my hours off!" She just started laughing. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Oh, well, I think that's a great story to end on. I'm so glad you shared that with us. Thank you very much, James.

Noel: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

------- End of interview -------