Oral history interview with Don Patterson

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Today is May 22, 2018, and I'm interviewing Don Patterson, a former Chilocco student from the class of '57. Don, you've served in the Air Force. You've been president of the Tonkawa tribe and have other positions. You started the Fort Oakland drum group, and your MC abilities are often called on around Indian country. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?Patterson: I was born in Lamont, Oklahoma. It's a small town just west of Tonkawa. I grew up there at a very early age, and then in and around Tonkawa, Oklahoma. Then at the Indian school at Pawnee, Pawnee Indian School, Pawnee 1:00Agency, I was there during grade school years.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Patterson: My mother was a housewife. My father was a carpenter.

Little Thunder: Any brothers or sisters?

Patterson: I have three sisters. Two of them are deceased now. My youngest sister is still living.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship to your grandparents on either side of your family?

Patterson: I don't understand that question.

Little Thunder: Were your grandparents alive when you were younger?

Patterson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Little Thunder: I was wondering if you could talk about them just a little.

Patterson: Yeah, I knew my grandparents on both sides. My grandfather on my dad's side was very old. As a matter of fact, he was born before the Civil War. 2:00He was quite old. As a matter of fact, he was about ninety-two years old when he died in 1952. I was, like, thirteen years old when he died, so I knew him very well. He was pretty interesting because he told a lot of stories about the time in his youth, which was back in the 1800s. Matter of fact, he told me a story about the time he inadvertently met the outlaw Jesse James in sometime around the 1880s as they were traveling across the prairie going to Guthrie, Oklahoma, which at that time was the capital of the territory at that time. That was kind of an interesting story. Then my grandmother, too, on my mother's side, she, 3:00too, was born in 1892. She lived during that Early Reservation Era. She died in 1964, so I knew her most of my young, early childhood and my young adult life, too. Got a lot of good, interesting historical stories from both of them.

Little Thunder: Were you around the Tonkawa language at all?

Patterson: Yeah, my grandmother spoke the language; my mother in our household.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. You explained that Tonkawa is kind of different in that it's almost more like a tribal town than some of the other 4:00Native nations.

Patterson: Well, Tonkawa itself, the town of Tonkawa is just a small non-Indian community that sprung up during the land rush days. The Tonkawa tribe and the original reservation area which surrounded what is now the town of Tonkawa had the agency located there, and it was called Oakland at that time, the Oakland Agency of the Nez Perce, a history that very many people are not aware of in the state of Oklahoma, that the Nez Perce lived on that reservation there, the Nez Perce under the leadership of Chief Joseph, of Chief Joseph fame, who was removed from the Northwest Territory back in those days. They lived on that reservation for about seven years right there at the same place where the Tonkawa now live. They got permission to move back to their home country back 5:00there. Then the Tonkawa were moved right in onto the same reservation into the same agency, even occupied some of the frame houses that were built for the Nez Perce at that time. That community is called Fort Oakland today.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that. So you went to Pawnee Indian School?

Patterson: Yes, I did.

Little Thunder: From what age to what age?

Patterson: I'm not sure my exact age, but I was there in grade school until--. That was an elementary school. It only went through the eighth grade, so I went to school there through the eighth grade, graduated from the eighth grade at that school. Then I went on to public school in the same town, Pawnee, Oklahoma. The government had initiated a plan in those days whereby the students who were 6:00at the Indian school could continue to come back to the school, live in a dormitory, eat in the dining hall, but be bused into town to Pawnee Public School. We encountered busing way before busing became popular. That was back in the early ʼ50s, around 1954 or somewhere around in there.

Little Thunder: How did you end up at Chilocco?

Patterson: Like a lot of Indian kids in those days, school was not a high priority. We lived in what you might consider poverty conditions at home. As a matter of fact, my mother enticed me to go to school with the idea that I would 7:00receive my own bed and three meals a day, and that's all I needed. I said, "I'll go. I'll take it." I went to school there, but after Pawnee and the experience at the Pawnee High School, I didn't really like it that well. I dropped out, like a lot of Indian students do. I dropped out in ninth grade. I went back to school the following year in the ninth grade again. I think the next year I went back in the ninth grade again. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How come you kept dropping--what was it you didn't like?

Patterson: It was difficult living at home, living under poor conditions. I was a member of a six-[member] home, myself and my three sisters and my mom and dad, 8:00and we lived in a one-room house, if you can imagine. It was like a log cabin basically, just one room, so we all lived in one room, no running water, no electricity, outdoor toilet, that sort of thing. Living conditions were not good, and so the school at Pawnee was good. I enjoyed that, but I wasn't too crazy about public school in Pawnee in town. I just kind of dropped out from there and didn't do much of anything but just kind of hang around for the next couple of years. I had an aunt that lived down in Pawnee, happened to live down there. I went down there one time just to visit, and she kind of got on to me for not being in school.

I took that. She suggested that if she could get me into school, would I go. I 9:00said, "Sure I would." She said, "I'm going to go down to the agency." She walked down to the agency there at Pawnee, did whatever was necessary to start the ball rolling to get me enrolled in Chilocco, so she did. She come back, and she had all the paperwork and everything. She said, "You're in! All you have to do is just get yourself up there." I went back home, went back to Tonkawa, and I told my mom and my grandma and everybody that my aunt had made arrangements for me to go to Chilocco. They said, "Good, we'll take you up there." They took me up there, and that's how I got there.

Little Thunder: So it was Pawnee High School you didn't like?

Patterson: Yeah, well, I shouldn't say I didn't like Pawnee High School. I had a lot of friends there. I lived in Pawnee at the Indian school and knew 10:00practically everybody in the community, so there were a lot of good acquaintances, a lot of good friends there. I don't know. Just the idea, I just didn't really care for public school, not Pawnee in general, you see, but just public school in general. I just kind of dropped out from there.

Little Thunder: What grade did you enter Chilocco in?

Patterson: I was in the ninth grade, which was my third year. I tell everybody, just kind of for humor's sake, I was in the ninth grade three years and finally just dropped out. I figured, "What the heck." If I didn't get it by then, there's no hope for me. (Laughter) Anyway, even when I got to Chilocco, some of my friends that I went to school with in Pawnee, they were already grades ahead 11:00of me. I was ahead of them at Pawnee School, so I kind of got behind. That didn't do much for my self-worth at that time, either. That's the way it went.

Little Thunder: What are your memories of your first year?

Patterson: Chilocco is a good school. I liked it. The same as Pawnee. Indian Boarding School, I liked it. I was glad to go there. As a matter of fact, you probably read a lot about the negative nature of Indian schools in general when it was kind of popular to whip on Indian schools back a few years ago, but I don't share that same sentiment. I went to Indian school, two different Indian schools, and I liked both of them. If they were operating today, if I had kids, I would send my kids there. I really enjoyed them that much like that, and 12:00Chilocco was a good school. Chilocco was, it was not only a school for academics, but it had a considerable range of trade schools that a person could be a part of. Matter of fact, the vo-tech system that we have today all around the state of Oklahoma, I suppose it was kind of sprung off of, I suppose, the trade school that the Indian schools had in those days. They had schools for carpentry and plumbing and auto mechanics and painting and agriculture, a lot of good things that a person could apply themselves into. The school had a policy that you had to go to school, academic classroom, for a half a day, and then the 13:00other half of the day was in a trade of your choice.

Little Thunder: What did you choose?

Patterson: I chose automobile mechanics at that time, so I spent a lot of time there, as well. Chilocco was a large agriculture school. It was almost a self-sustaining school. Had a large farm, dairy and pigs and sheep and chickens and turkeys, cows and horses, almost every kind of farm animal you could think of. They supplied meat for the dining hall. I remember one day I butchered twelve sheep one morning by myself one time. I kind of got that experience, as well.

Little Thunder: Who were some teachers or administrators that you remember?

Patterson: The superintendent was, he was a famous superintendent at Chilocco 14:00for it seemed like forever. His name was--

Little Thunder: L. E. Correll?

Patterson: --Correll, yeah. He was there when I was there. [Principal] was named Muller or Mueller [Ernest Mueller], something like that. I can't remember. Mueller, I believe his name was. I had a teacher that I remember, [Kay] Ahrnken, Miss Ahrnken, homeroom teacher. It seems like everybody that went to Chilocco knew Miss Ahrnken. Dormitory matron by the name of Mrs. [Minnie] Mzhickteno. I remember her very well.

Little Thunder: What was your worst or best memory of being on detail, having detail?

Patterson: Back in those days, they believed in corporal punishment. (Laughs) It 15:00was not unthinkable to get a good paddling back in those days. They had a systematic procedure for that, that if you got in trouble and you were sentenced to so many licks by the paddle, it was done by the sportsmen's lettermen's club. All of the lettermen had those big paddles like you see down at OSU, the Roughnecks, the paddles that they use and everything. The lettermen's club, they had those paddles kind of symbolic of their office. If you got sentenced to a paddling by the lettermen's club, you had to stand out in front of the dormitory while each letterman walked by and whacked you with his paddle. Depending on how 16:00many lettermen there were available that day, you got a pretty good licking. That was one. Then they had another one. Someone had an idea at that time to build a golf course up on the school at Chilocco.

The school had a lot of sports that a person could get involved in, football, baseball, basketball, had an Olympic-sized swimming pool. Somebody decided they needed a golf course. Us young Indian guys, golf was the farthest thing from our mind. Who plays golf, anyway? This football coach, his name was [James] Choate--. He had the idea to build a golf course out there on the school. The biggest project for building that--was clearing the land of trees. If you got in 17:00trouble and you got punished or sentenced to some kind of punishment detail, you got assigned to what we called Choate's chain gang, which was working out there on weekends, chopping trees to make room for the future golf course. I chopped a lot of trees off of that property up there and helped build that golf course initially. (Laughter) That's probably my worst experience up there, was serving on Choate's chain gang.

Little Thunder: What did you do for fun?

Patterson: For fun? School was fun. You hang around; had sports. I had intermural sports, and we had Indian club, what we called Indian club. Even though it's an Indian school, it's kind of strange to think that you had an Indian club in an Indian school. The whole school was an Indian club. They had 18:00various clubs like home ec club, ag club, and the Indian club was all of those people who were interested in gathering up on certain days to sing and dance and to carry on some of the, what we call, powwow traditions today. We'd gather down in the old girls' gym which was called the Flaming Arrow at that time, had a name like that. We'd gather in there, and somebody would bring a drum. We'd sing, and people would dance, mostly the girls. They'd bring a shawl, and they'd dance. They'd allow us a couple hours on a scheduled basis to have Indian club. That was a big important thing to us like that. Then part of our duty, we were assigned in the agriculture program. You were assigned a job of caring for a 19:00particular animal of your choice. You could choose to take a lamb and raise that lamb and take care of it, groom it and feed it, and even show it in the county fairs coming up, or a steer or a horse, whatever.

I chose to take a horse, so I was down on the weekends grooming my horse, looking after my horse and things like that. That was kind of a fun thing on the side, too. Most of the time it was just socializing with the students. A big campus, beautiful campus, had a large oval, a big, large oval which is a nice, grassy area. Had a fountain in the middle of it. Of course, all of the school buildings was all built around that oval. The rule was that you could not walk on the grass during certain hours of the day. I think it was between eight and 20:00four o'clock. You had to walk on the sidewalks to keep you from getting on the grass on the oval. After supper, (I forget what time supper was, four thirty or five o'clock) after supper, you were allowed to go out on the oval on the grass and socialize. People go out there and sit around with their girlfriends and guys and just kind of hang around and play games, toss a ball. Somebody invented a little game that I think was the beginning of Frisbee.

Little Thunder: Is that right?

Patterson: Someone took a lid off of a snuff can lid. The shape, it was about three inches diameter. They would toss that lid around, and it would float just like a Frisbee. A whole bunch of guys would stand out there on the campus and throw that snuff lid around like a Frisbee. If we had any good sense, we would 21:00have probably invented the Frisbee in those days and become millionaires, but we didn't think of things like that.

Little Thunder: You needed to patent that.

Patterson: Yeah. Sometime later, the Frisbee became a very popular toy, and somebody got rich on it. That was kind of an idea of some of the things that we'd do in the evening time. We'd sneak out to the orchard in the evening time and pick apples and peaches and stuff for extra treats like that, school-kid stuff.

Little Thunder: Where were you in the National Guard armory?

Patterson: I wasn't in the National Guard.

Little Thunder: But you knew it was there.

Patterson: Oh, yeah, the National Guard was there. The National Guard was there. I wasn't in that. I didn't get into that.

Little Thunder: What did prompt you when you left Chilocco? Why did you leave 22:00Chilocco, and what prompted you to enlist in the military?

Patterson: I tell a lot of this current generation today that in my day, in my generation's day, we all aspired to be soldiers. That was part of our upbringing. The culture of our people, whether it be Tonkawa, Ponca, Kiowa, or Cheyenne, or whatever, our whole history of our nations were based and built around a warrior concept. All the dances that we danced are war dances, and the soldier dances and all the ceremonies are built around the concept of the warrior. That was part of our upbringing, kind of ingrained into our self-concept. In order to be legitimate participants in that kind of activity, you had to become one, so we all aspired to be soldiers in those days. All of my 23:00generation as they grew up got old enough, they immediately went into the military service because that was the only way in these contemporary modern times that you could become a warrior, unlike the old days. That was our way to acquire that kind of a status, so that was my inclination right early on. Then we would sit and listen to the old guys tell all them war stories and kind of inspire us to want to be a part of that, so that's kind of how it happened.

Little Thunder: Were you eighteen, or were you older?

Patterson: Yeah, I finally decided that I'd go down and join the service. I had a friend of mine, he was in the Army. He was always talking about the Army and 24:00the good times he had and things he experienced, so I thought, "I'll go down and join the Army." I happened to be down in Shawnee, Oklahoma, at that time. The military recruiting officers had their offices in a local hotel, the lobby of a hotel. You drive by the hotel, and you see the big sign out in front that says, "Uncle Sam wants you," that sort of thing. I went down there to join the Army. It was around noontime I guess. I really wasn't paying attention to the hour. I walked in there at noontime, and I asked the hotel clerk there where the desk of the Army recruiting sergeant was. She says, "Right over there." I could see all of the Army signs and everything, and nobody there.

I said, "He's not here." She looked around, and she said, "He was there a few minutes ago. I don't know where he went." I said, "Well, I can't wait. Where's 25:00the Navy guy at?" She said, "His desk is over there." I went over there, and he wasn't there either! I said, "How are they going to recruit, not being in their offices?" She said, "I think it's lunchtime. That Army and Navy guy, they always go to lunch together, so they're probably out to lunch." Now I'm getting mad, you see. I said, "Who is here?" Up on a mezzanine, you know, a little balcony up on the second floor there was an Air Force recruiting officer leaning over the balcony hearing all that ruckus I was making down there. She said, "There's an Air Force guy," and he's looking down there. I said, "I'll go see him." I walked up the stairs and signed up with the Air Force guy, so that's kind of how it went. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a great story. They sent you to boot camp first?

Patterson: Yeah, I went to boot camp in San Antonio, Texas. From there, I went to tech training in a place called Chanute [Air Force Base], Illinois, just south of Chicago.

Little Thunder: To work on airplanes?

Patterson: Yeah.

Little Thunder: And you had that automobile experience, too.

Patterson: Yeah. That--.

Little Thunder: Totally different.

Patterson: I guess the mechanic aptitude probably helped, but it didn't have anything to do with automobiles. Then I went from there, and I was trained in aircrew sea rescue. I went through that training and got sent to a place called Offutt Field, Nebraska, which was under the old Strategic Air Command, which is 27:00no longer in existence today. Then I got involved in that particular duty, and then I was also trained as, what we called, a [drogue] chute rigger, like a parachute rigger, but it was a drag chute for B-52s and B-47 bombers, real large. You've probably seen them where airplanes come in. They'll pop that chute, and it slows them down. I was trained as one of those like that, so I became a drag chute rigger and would load those parachutes into those bombers and things like that.

Little Thunder: Were you flying quite a bit, too?

Patterson: I was also in a rescue, aircrew rescue like that, and survival. Then I got involved a little bit later on in in-flight refueling where big Air Force 28:00fuel tankers would refuel bombers, B-52s particularly, overseas in the China Sea and Taiwan and places like that.

Little Thunder: What was it like the first time you flew? You hadn't been in an airplane before.

Patterson: I enjoyed it. The first time I was on an airplane was when I left Oklahoma City from the recruiting station to go to San Antonio. That was the first time I was ever on an airplane. I thought it was fun. That was a commercial flight from Oklahoma City to San Antonio, and the rest of the time was in military aircraft. Flew in some of the old aircrafts that were still in existence then, what they call B-25s which were World War II [relics], and they 29:00were clunkers at that time.

Little Thunder: Noisy.

Patterson: Noisy. Had some near misses with those. They would almost crash land every time they landed. (Laughter) It was the norm. That was kind of scary. Then my scariest moment was trying to help rescue a crashed fighter plane whereby both pilots in it were literally burned to death. I couldn't really do anything about them. Probably my most vivid memory of those times like that, to watch those two pilots literally burn to death. Anyway--.

Little Thunder: How do you feel like your Chilocco experiences, or even other 30:00experiences, helped you be ready to enlist, helped you do a good job in the military?

Patterson: I don't know. It's pretty hard to say what impact school had on any young life. You learn things, primarily academics, but you also learn order and discipline, learn to be regulated. You get up at this hour, go to school at that hour, report here, report there. Then, of course, you had duties and responsibilities. One of the things about Indian school is you had to learn to take care of yourself, keep your clothes in order, your personal things in 31:00order, and you had housekeeping responsibilities. You had to clean and mop and wax floors and wash windows and kind of do all of that stuff. I suppose all of that stuff had some kind of lasting impact on future life. I still do that today, wash and clean and mop the floors, keep the dishes washed. I tell everybody that's some of my old Indian school training. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When did you decide to leave the military?

Patterson: I just served my term. I served my term, and as I neared the end of my term--. The squadron commander, part of his job was to try to recruit you for re-enlistment. They recruited me pretty hard for re-enlistment, and I was bound 32:00and determined to serve my time and move on. They treated me pretty good. They gave me some real cushy jobs. In the last ninety to 120 days of my enlistment, they give me a real good job. That was pretty neat. They made me a courier for special electronic computerized equipment that they used in the missile defense program, which was prevalent in those days on what they call the DEW [distant early warning] line around the Arctic Circle up there where they had strategically placed missiles to guard against attacks from Russia and European countries across the North Pole like that.

Little Thunder: So you were stationed up there?

Patterson: Yeah, my job was to go gather that equipment up and bring it by airplane all the way down to Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City, which was home, basically. They gave me a job of bringing special equipment down to Tinker, to be tested and calibrated, on a plane. I was responsible for it. After I signed it over to the maintenance people at Tinker, I'd just be free to wait on it and to take it back. Sometimes I'd go home for a week or two at a time waiting on that stuff. Once it was finished, they'd call me up and say, "Hey, your stuff is ready." I'd beat it back to Tinker, and they'd already have it loaded up in an old C-47 plane. I'd jump back in, and away we'd go back and take it back. That was a pretty cushy job. It gave me free time at home without 34:00taking leave. I always knew that that was part of their plan to try to get me to re-up or re-sign up, but I didn't. When my term expired, I went ahead and took my discharge and went back home.

Little Thunder: You hadn't had any time in your--you hadn't spent any time with the Air Force in Europe? Had you been in Europe with the Air Force, Germany?

Patterson: Not in Europe, no. In the Pacific, yeah.

Little Thunder: In the Pacific, okay. In Hawaii?

Patterson: Taiwan. When my time was up, I was just bound and determined to go on. I wasn't interested in a career military. I was interested in becoming a warrior. Once that status was established, I'm ready to move on. One of the 35:00things that I have to say, probably the best thing that ever happened to me in there was, I was a high school dropout. In those days, the military would accept high school drop outs. Today, you have to be at least a high school graduate or even a junior college graduate to get in the military. I was not a high school graduate. One of my squadron commanders, he noted that. He'd give me counseling every now and then. He said, "Pattison...." He had a kind of accent. He said, "Pattison, you really need to improve your schooling. We have a GED program. It would be wise of you to involve yourself in that." "Well, I'll think about it." I thought about it, and I thought about it. I went over to the--they would allow 36:00you some time during duty hours to devote to them. I went over there and talked to them.

The guy said, "Yeah, you study, you take these classes, then at a time when they figure your proficient enough, you take the test. If you pass, we'll award you a general education certificate, GED certificate." I said, "What is that?" He said, "It's a high school diploma equivalent." I said, "Well, all right, it sounds good." I signed up. I went in the GED class. I took the training, and I took the test. I got a GED, the equivalent. When they ordered that to me, I talked to him. I said, "Is this just like a high school diploma?" He said, "Yes, it's an equivalent high school diploma, military GED." I said, "Could I go to 37:00college on the basis of this?" He said, "You certainly could." I thought, "Wow, that's something to think about." After I got out of the military, I went to work in the Civil Service. I went right back to Tinker Field down there. I worked around different kind of jobs, construction and this and that, and I went to work back at Tinker Field back there doing some of the same things that my Air Force duties entailed. I worked there for a while.

Then I was going to work one day at Tinker Field, walking in in the morning and lining up, punching a time card like all of the factory workers do. I was standing in line (there was a long line) punching a time card. I heard somebody in the back, back there, complaining about the day. I heard him say way back 38:00there, just out of the clear blue, he said, "I'll tell you one thing. Nobody ever got rich punching a time card." I heard him back there, and I punched the time card and went to work. I thought about that later on. "You know, I think he's right. Nobody ever got rich punching a time card. There ought to be something better than this." I went down to the Pawnee Agency again, and in those days they had a relocation program, Indian relocation program whereby the Bureau would finance you to relocate to find work in a big city somewhere, or schooling, or whatever was your desire. I inquired about schooling, about going to school. I was interesting in drafting and design. I got the idea working with 39:00my dad. I worked with him for a while on construction.

One cold, rainy day we were sitting out there on the construction site, and he had this big blueprint laying down there, reading that blueprint about the construction that was going on. I was talking to him. I said, "Hey, Dad, this is a pretty complex thing here. How did you learn to read these things?" He said, "Well, son, I've been doing this all my life, and it just kind of came from experience," I said, "Could you teach me how to read these things?" He said, "Son, you don't want to learn to read these things because if you do, you'll be just like me out here in the rain and the snow, working in these construction projects, reading these blueprints. What you need to learn to do is how to make these blueprints. The guy that made this thing sits in a nice, warm, 40:00air-conditioned office with a white shirt and a necktie and a nice desk, and he makes these things." I said, "Yeah, how do you do that?" He said, "Well, that's what they call drafting and design." I went to the agency, and I said, "I want to go to school for drafting and design." They approved my application, and I went to a technical school in San Francisco, a school of drafting and design. I graduated from there, but while I was there I was getting involved in other stuff.

Little Thunder: A lot of activism going on.

Patterson: I got involved in the activism on Alcatraz in 1969, and that Indian activist movement basically kicked off the whole revitalization of Native America. I was really proud to be a part of that operation there. Then I 41:00enrolled in San Francisco State University in a college program. I acquired a number of credits, about a hundred credits, but I didn't graduate. Then Oklahoma State University had advertised nationwide about a particular program that they were offering now that was funded by the Department of Labor. It was called American Indian Manpower program. I made an application for that, got accepted to that, and transferred from San Francisco State to Oklahoma State University under a scholarship in that particular program. Then I graduated from Oklahoma State University in a regular degree discipline, along with the Manpower program that was required. I completed that and graduated from there, went on to a 42:00graduate program. Graduated from there, as well.

Little Thunder: From OSU?

Patterson: From OSU, so I got a master's degree in that.

Little Thunder: What was the field?

Patterson: Adult and Occupational Education. I graduated from the Manpower program, as well, which was funded by the Department of Labor. A funny thing about that, that was a federal program that recruited nationwide to attend that special program. That was to train individuals who would later become administrators and directors of the Manpower Development program, the old MDTA [Manpower Development and Training Act] and later become CETA [Comprehensive Employment and Training Act] then become JTP [Job Training Partnership Act] and so on. They were training Indians from across the nation to assume 43:00administrative roles in those programs which were yet to come, so they recruited from all across the nation.

They had something like seventy to a hundred people from across the nation enrolled in that program. Sandy McNabb, who happened to be the head of--that Manpower program in Washington, DC, invited me to come up to his office one day, and he gave me a special award because I was the only person of all of those recruits all across the nation who graduated from both of the programs, from the undergraduate program and the graduate program. He said a funny thing. He said, "That was a five- to ten-million-dollar grant, and you're the only person who graduated. We spent ten million dollars on you, son." So that was kind of fun, wasn't it? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I was just thinking what a great background that is when you go to work for the tribe, when you come in. I don't know when you got involved with that.

Patterson: Then I went on into a doctoral program. I did. I went all the way to dissertation level. I finished all of my degree requirements, and I was working on my last six to nine hours of the dissertation requirement.

Little Thunder: Still at OSU?

Patterson: Still at OSU. I had done about two or three of those hours, and then I get involved in the tribe. I got involved working for the tribe and as administrator of various programs, and ended up being a tribal chairman. I never did go back to finish my doctoral program, so I dropped out of that. I used to 45:00tell everybody I was a high school dropout. Now I tell everybody I'm a doctoral dropout. That sounds a lot better. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What were some of the tribal programs that you were proud of having helped?

Patterson: The education program, primarily, the higher education program. Back in my day, higher education programs were very rare. They were administered through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Tribes did not have that prerogative in those days. All of the programs that the tribes now administer as grants from the Bureau of Indian Affairs were all administered by the Bureau at that time. If you wanted to get involved in those, you had to go down to the agency, make an application. Higher education programs were a low priority in those days. Trade and occupational programs were the emphasis in those days. That's part of 46:00that relocation program. They sent a lot of people to trade schools, like myself. Once we got to the tribe and we began to contract from the bureau to administer those programs at the tribal level, then we began to be more effective.

All of a sudden, we began to get a lot of tribal students into colleges. I think I was the first person in my whole tribe ever to graduate from college. Probably one of the--of course, I didn't graduate from high school. We had very, very few high school graduates even. Today, we have a lot of high school graduates graduating with honors. We have a lot of college graduates, both from the community colleges and from the senior colleges, as well. That program has had a 47:00great impact over the years. That was the one I was primarily responsible for because that's my background. I have my degree in Adult and Occupational Education. It just worked out perfectly.

Little Thunder: What is the status of speakers of Tonkawa? How many speakers of Tonkawa do you have, and do you have a language program?

Patterson: Yeah, the language program is not very good, I guess I should say. It's one of the disappointments that I have in our tribe. I read all over Indian country where language programs are just thriving, Osage and some of the others down there, the Yuchi and different tribes. They even have symposiums down at OU 48:00and have language days down there where kids are brought in from various schools. My tribe is just not--. When I was there, I tried to emphasize the tribal culture. To me, that's more important than anything, more important than anything. Our tribe is very small. There's so few of our tribal members who share that sentiment. Most of our tribal members grew up in non-traditional environments. You know what I'm talking about? Didn't have that kind of background; didn't have a grandmother or mother who spoke the language in the household. You see what I'm talking about? They just didn't have that kind of a background. Even to this day, our tribal leadership doesn't have that kind of background. They're more academically inclined. They don't place a lot of 49:00emphasis on--. I've written a lot of language studies. I've written a dictionary. I've done all of these things. It's preserved, but how well it's used and applied is still kind of uncertain.

Little Thunder: More work to do. Talk a little bit about the Drum Group for Oakland, how you got that started.

Patterson: Powwow and dances in our traditional culture is big. The state of Oklahoma, it's big. People come to Oklahoma, tourists, to see Indians and to see Indians in their traditional environments. They don't come to Oklahoma just to go to casinos. They want to see Indians dancing and ceremonies and things like 50:00that. Of course, that's big for us as Indians and Native people, warriors, the dances that we perform, the dances of the warriors and the soldier dances and things. It's ingrained in our being to be a part of that and to continue to perpetuate that for the next generation, so that's why we have powwows. A powwow basically is a celebration of self. You read every day, Ponca Powwow, Kaw Powwow, Cheyenne Powwow. Powwows are simply a celebration of a nation, of who they are. It's like a Fourth of July in America. Fourth of July is a celebration of the birthday of America.

That's basically what powwows are. They are a celebration of who we are as a cultural entity. See what I'm talking about? It's our opportunity to perpetuate 51:00our history through dance, song, and other aspects of our culture. That's important to me. That's important to me. There was a Sioux Chief way back there by the name of Standing Bear. Not this Standing Bear, but a Sioux Chief by the name of Standing Bear who was a participant at the Little Big Horn. He said something, a quote that I use quite often. He said, "When you lose the ways of your fathers, when the sound of the tom-tom is no more, when the drum and the music is replaced by loud, noisy jazz from the radio, when you've forgotten all that was your heritage that had been handed down--." I'm not quoting him precisely, but this is the essence of what he said. He said, "When you lose all 52:00of that, you're an Indian no more. Even though you breathe and live and walk the streets of big cities, you're dead as an Indian."

What he's trying to say is that the foundation or the essence of who you are is based on your heritage, your culture. Your identity is in--and your language. An Iowa man by the name of Franklin Murray wrote one time--I think his Indian name was ThigréPi, Good Track. He said something to the effect, he said when you lose your language, basically you've lost your entire heritage. If you've lost your entire heritage, you're like what Standing Bear said: you're a Indian no more, even though you live and breathe and still walk. You can claim to be an Indian. I once attended a symposium at Oklahoma State University where they 53:00invited high school students from all across the state to attend an open house. High school students from all across the state gathered, and on the final day of their introduction they assembled in the theater room. They had a speaker, a Native American speaker from the Creek tribe by the name of Phillip Deere, known as kind of an Indian spiritual person.

He spoke. I was one of the speakers, so I was sitting there listening to him. He kind of inspired me. He talked, and he talked, and he talked. Then in closing, he said, "Of all the things that I've said to you today, I hope you remember this one thing." He was talking to that audience. "I hope you remember this one thing. The greatest failing in life, and your greatest failing, will try to 54:00become something that you are not." I always remember that. I was inspired by an evangelist one time. I was watching TV, and this evangelist come out Sunday morning. I was watching him. He walked out into the church, and a large congregation gathered. He walked up to the podium, and he said, "Before we start this morning's service, I'm going to ask a question. How many Christians are here today?"

Naturally, all the hands went up because they're in church. "How many Christians--." All the hands went up. He said, "Question number two: how do you know that?" One at a time, the hands went down. I thought about that. When I got up to speak to that class that time, I used kind of that same example. "How many 55:00Indian kids here today?" Every hand went up. I said, "How do you know that?" Lot of hands went down one at a time. Some of them stayed up. "How do you know that?" You know what some of the answers were? "My mom told me." "I've got a card." "I'm enrolled." See what I'm talking about? None of that had anything to do with the self-perception of heritage, culture. See what I'm talking about?

Little Thunder: And I understand--.

Patterson: It was based on what they perceived as blood, being enrolled. I've always been of the contention that blood never had anything to do with it. An Indian is a cultural identity, not a blood identity. The government for some 56:00reason or other labeled us with that notion of having to have a certain degree of blood. There's not another group of people on the face of this earth that is identified by that criteria. Think of this: what if you walked up to a group of students in Oklahoma State University, say, a Latin or Spanish group or the Asian group. "Hey, are you full-blood?" Ask any one of them that stupid question. "Huh?" What do you think their response would be. Nobody asks anybody what their degree of blood is except Native Americans. It's a stupid notion, but, anyway, that's a whole ʼnother discussion.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that. I understand one of your favorite parts of the reunion is the powwow. You go to the Chilocco reunions. I was wondering why you enjoy the Chilocco reunions and the Chilocco powwow.

Patterson: Well, that's part of my heritage. That's the part that I enjoyed. They have a lot of good things up there. It's a week-long celebration, I think. They have a big barbecue. Everybody likes to eat; everybody goes out to eat. Then they have veterans activities. They have health activities, the walk that they do. A lot of people enjoy a lot of those different activities. I think they even have a dance, a--

Little Thunder: White-man dance.

Patterson: --white-man dance, sock hop as it were, back in the days, old folks' 58:00sock hop. Can you imagine that? Anyway, everybody enjoys that. I enjoy all of that. I like to go to the barbecue. I like to eat; you can tell that. I have no problem with those things, but the powwow and the heritage part is big to me because, just the way I've been talking up to now, that is really what defines us as Native Americans. When we lose that, like that Standing Bear said, we will not be Indians anymore.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else we should talk about that we haven't covered?

Patterson: I don't know what your interest is. I don't even know why you wanted to interview me of all people. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I've heard some great stories about Chilocco.

Patterson: Chilocco has had some very notable students come through there. We've had a student--Jim Baker was a student there. Came back to be superintendent. We 59:00have doctors and lawyers and people that come out of there.

Little Thunder: And tribal leaders.

Patterson: Tribal leaders, tribal chairmen, Medal of Honor winners. That school has been great for people. It's a good school. I wish it was still there, to tell you the truth. It was a great school.

Little Thunder: Thank you for your time today.

Patterson: Okay.

------- End of interview -------