Oral history interview with Denise Jones

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is September 26, 2017, and I'm interviewing Denise Jones as part of a collaboration between the Chilocco Alumni Association and the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Denise, you're Ponca and Absentee Shawnee, a fourth-generation Chilocco graduate, and your time at Chilocco ended the year the school closed in 1980. You worked at OSU in Stillwater for a number of years before moving back to the Tulsa area, and you've done a lot of interesting things since then, including raising seven children and being self-employed. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Jones: I didn't graduate from Chilocco. I was actually a junior when it closed.

Little Thunder: Okay, yes, thank you for that correction.

Jones: Yeah, and I was born in Pawnee, Oklahoma. My dad was a master printer and immediately moved us to Dallas, Texas, where he worked for a big printing company--. I was there until I was twelve, and then he moved us back here. My grandmother had a restaurant called Wimpy's in Ponca City. We moved to Newkirk, and they opened a second one there in a [teen town]. They also had a Pizza Hut--or, it wasn't Pizza Hut, but it was called The Hut, which was pizza.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's neat. What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Jones: Well, they're dead. I used to spend summers with both. I was sometimes with my grandparents on my mother's side, and then sometimes I'd come for the summer, growing up, and work with my grandma in the restaurant.

Little Thunder: And were you around both the Shawnee culture and Ponca culture? Was one more predominant?

Jones: Mostly the Ponca, yeah. My grandmother, they all lived around the Ponca City area, so, yeah, it was mostly Ponca.

Little Thunder: Well, tell us a little bit about Wimpy's. That was a pretty well-known restaurant.

Jones: Yeah. (Laughter) It was homemade food, and it was really good. Some of the family felt like my grandma was getting up in age, and they went ahead and 3:00sold out.

Little Thunder: It was kind of unusual for a Native-owned enterprise to start. Do you remember any stories about it?

Jones: Most of my family has been entrepreneurs. My dad, as well, and my grandmother. He got it honestly. My dad's grandmother was full Ponca. She was the first notary public female in Oklahoma, and she was full Ponca. That came a lot probably from Chilocco Indian School.

Little Thunder: So you were in Dallas for quite a chunk of time. What was it like growing up in Dallas at that time?

Jones: It was great; it was really good. We initially lived downtown. I've since 4:00gone back and looked, and it's a parking lot. Then Dad moved us into the suburbs. It was great; it was good.

Little Thunder: And then when you would come back to Ponca City in the summer, 5:00big change?

Jones: No, it's just family, cousins, lots of cousins.

Little Thunder: Right, right. What was Ponca City like at that time when you were going back in the summers?

Jones: It seemed considerably smaller, but it was good. We just mostly stayed at my grandma's house. Sat out on the porch and talked.

Little Thunder: You went to public school, I guess, then in Dallas. What grades?

Jones: First through sixth.

Little Thunder: First through sixth, and then you were back in Ponca City, going to public school?

Jones: Newkirk, which is twelve miles north of Ponca City, yeah.

Little Thunder: What was school like in Newkirk?

Jones: It was hard. It was really hard. One, it was a huge cultural shock from Dallas, Texas, to twenty-five hundred people. Probably didn't adjust that well. I did okay, first couple years.

Little Thunder: Did you find it was kind of like going over the same old material, or just was it attitudes, or what was the difference?

Jones: I did come advanced from Dallas to Newkirk, and yeah, I think I did get bored. There wasn't anything to do, (Laughs) except a little mischief. (Laughter) I found that pretty good.

Little Thunder: Did you? (Laughs) You had this whole family history of 6:00attendance at Chilocco, but what was the first time that you actually went to the campus? Was it before you went to school there?

Jones: Oh, yeah. My dad used to do some things up in there. He learned to be a master printer from being at Chilocco. He immediately went to work for a printing company, well, a newspaper right after that.

Little Thunder: So, like, the first time that you went maybe was with your father to the campus, or was it before that?

Jones: No, with my father. Yeah, we used to go as a family. He had friends and family. I had an aunt that worked there at Chilocco. We'd visit her.

Little Thunder: What job did she have?

Jones: Tillie Hernandez, I believe she worked for Mr. Baker.

Little Thunder: Okay, and did you like to go to the printing classroom?

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: So tell us a bit about your family history at Chilocco.

Jones: Well, I was the girl that got pregnant in high school. I wasn't doing too well in school, and so Dad put me in Chilocco. That helped a lot.

Little Thunder: But all the way, as you mentioned, going back to your great-grandmother, you had family there. Can you take us through, kind of walk us through who went, and what they felt like Chilocco had given them?

Jones: Well, I was fourth-generation. My great-grandmother went there. She was taken from her home when she was four. She went to school all that time, and 8:00then she also stayed and was a matron afterwards. My grandmother, which was her daughter, Velma Pensoneau, was the second generation to go, and then my dad and my aunt was the third generation to go. Then I was fourth.

Little Thunder: So I'm kind of thinking, when your great-grandmother was working as the matron there, then your grandmother sort of grew up on that campus, too?

Jones: I think it might have been before--.

Little Thunder: Might have been before? Okay, that's so neat. What were some of the, maybe, stories, either good or bad, that they shared with you about their experiences before you went?

Jones: I mostly just heard good. They had the school dances, and all of the 9:00girls learned how to type and sew and do all the homemaking things. They had proms and dances. Everything, pretty much, that my dad told me was really positive.

Little Thunder: Were there any Chilocco marriages that came out--.

Jones: Yeah, I'm sure there are. My dad didn't marry out of there. He probably should've, that one picture I showed you of him.

Little Thunder: Yes.

Jones: I mean, he's always liked her, but no, not directly, except for me.

Little Thunder: Right.

Jones: I did marry a man that I went to school with there, so I guess I did. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So when you came to Chilocco, and, like you said, you have a little child--

Jones: I had a two-year-old, yes, and so--.

Little Thunder: --so you're coming in with a lot more to deal with than some of the students.

Jones: Yeah, still excelled. Was head cheerleader and did really well.

Little Thunder: Talk to us a little bit about the cheerleading team.

Jones: They were awesome. We just had fun. It was a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: Was it competitive to get in?

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Pretty competitive?

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Because you have to be real athletic.

Jones: Yeah, and I'm still friends to this day with my cheerleading coach. She was also the art teacher.

Little Thunder: Oh, neat. That's really neat. What was her name?

Jones: Sandy Wilson.

Little Thunder: Oh, Sandy Wilson, yes, also an artist. (Laughs)

Jones: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you all compete against other cheer teams?

Jones: No, we just cheered for our teams, yeah.

Little Thunder: And what about the games? Do you remember one that was particularly special, or do you remember any--

Jones: I know our basketball girls were really tough. They were awesome. I mean, that's thirty-some years ago, but I just remember a lot of camaraderie and just loving everybody on the team. It was fun, and we had--. Sandy just made it really lighthearted and fun. It was good.

Little Thunder: What was the most, kind of, amusing thing that happened, either 12:00during a cheer practice or when you were cheering at a game?

Jones: Well, I mean, you know, just learning all the cheers and things. I just think we thought, we felt like we were hot stuff.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) I'm sure you were. (Laughter)

Jones: It's funny to think of now, but yeah. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What kinds of classes did you take when you were there?

Jones: Mostly business. (Laughter) Typing was particularly interesting.

Little Thunder: Why is that?

Jones: You used the old-time typewriter stuff, and we were all pretty ornery. We looked like we were typing a lot of the times. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Who were some teachers that stood out for you?

Jones: I can't remember her name for the world, but I remember her face, just right there.

Little Thunder: Is this the typing teacher?

Jones: Yeah. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Do you think she was on to you or not?

Jones: I think she pretty much hated us. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you still have work details then or not?

Jones: I didn't because I commuted. I had a baby, so I commuted back and forth, but yeah, I'm sure the girls did.

Little Thunder: Did you ever bring your toddler to school?

Jones: No, but I did bring the girls home with me on the weekends. They'd get weekend passes, and I'd take a different one home with me every week. It was fun.

Little Thunder: I bet they really appreciated that, too.

Jones: We had a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: Did they go to Wimpy's and just kind of hang out?

Jones: Yeah, and I think they got to meet my friends in Newkirk and Ponca City. Dad would take us places, and we'd just have a good time.

Little Thunder: Oh, neat. Were some of them from out of state?

Jones: Oh, all of them, yeah, all from far, faraway places.

Little Thunder: What was one of the most special, intertribal friendships you had over there?

Jones: I'd have to say Christine Callshim because I met her the summer before I went to Chilocco.

Little Thunder: In Newkirk or--.

Jones: No, I met her--we were on a Indian program, working at Marland Mansion. I was a little fair-skinned than some. She was my friend. They all, I think, were afraid of her. (Laughs) I don't know, but they left me alone. (Laughter) We're 15:00still friends, and we still talk quite a bit. She's a awesome, awesome person.

Little Thunder: Wow. You said the other students were kind of a little afraid of her, did you say?

Jones: Yeah, and she's really not very big, so I was like--.

Little Thunder: She was tough. (Laughter)

Jones: Yeah, apparently. She was always really sweet whenever I worked with her, but yeah, some people were afraid of her. I was thrilled to death to have her as my friend.

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah. And how about homework and balancing? Of course, you were--how much homework did you have when you had to go home and be with your daughter?

Jones: Not a lot. I don't remember. Just studying and things, studying for tests and such.

Little Thunder: And you already knew you wanted to do something in business.

Jones: Yeah. I think Sandy's husband was my math teacher, I believe.

Little Thunder: How about the food? You ate there at lunch?

Jones: It was awesome. I did end up marrying the cook's son, Semion McCarty's son. No, there was never any complaints about the food or the amount you got. He would feed you well, for sure.

Little Thunder: That's great.

Jones: It was right up there with restaurant food. I mean, it really was good, really good food.

Little Thunder: When you started that semester of 1980, I guess 1979, fall of '79--

Jones: Yes, '79, '80.

Little Thunder: --were people talking then? Were rumors afloat that Chilocco was going to close? Was it announced at the beginning of the year, even, or--.Jones: 17:00I don't think it was announced. I don't remember it being announced at the beginning of the year. I remember it kind of being a shock.

Little Thunder: But you were hearing people talk about it. When was the official announcement made?

Jones: I'll be honest; I can't remember. I just remember back then you think that's all everybody else's stuff to worry about, but it was not good. The seniors had it the best because they were done and they could move on, where the lower classmen had to find other places to be. I, particularly, was sent to my aunt's house up in Kansas and went to Chaparral High School, and that was pretty traumatic.

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute. So basically--and 18:00they probably didn't want to disrupt. I mean, they wanted the students to be able to focus on their studies, but then, come springtime, everybody kind of knew that this was the last semester. They needed to make preparations. Do you remember, did they--at the end of the year, what was that graduation like? That must have been tough.

Jones: Oh, I think the senior class got to go to DC. They sent them out good. They really did.

Little Thunder: They got to take a special trip?

Jones: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you go to the graduation ceremony, too?

Jones: Yes, for sure.

Little Thunder: So you've got these friends, and they're also having to make alternate plans.

Jones: We didn't have Facebook back then, so you just lost track. I found a lot of them now, so that's a lot of years later.

Little Thunder: Through the association, the alumni association?

Jones: Mostly through Facebook, (Laughter) Twitter.

Little Thunder: Wonderful thing that that can do.

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: When you went up to Kansas, that was not a good experience in that public school?

Jones: Well, no. It's not that my aunt wasn't doing a good job or that I didn't like my cousins or anything. It was just different, back into a different society. This was rural Kansas. When you're used to feeling--when you're with people you feel a part of, it's really hard.

Little Thunder: Right, and that was for your senior year, right?

Jones: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay. So what happened after that?

Jones: I married the man that I went to school with at Chilocco. Didn't last 20:00very long, but I did. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Were you back living in Oklahoma at that point?

Jones: Well, he come got me, and then yes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Were you doing anything related to business at that point, too?

Jones: No, I was just a high school student and working in a restaurant.

Little Thunder: Okay. Up there in Kansas, you were working part-time?

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Saving your money or--.

Jones: Of course. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And then you were at another college before going to OSU, right? Did you have another--.

Jones: I first went to NOC [Northern Oklahoma College] for broadcasting.

Little Thunder: For broadcasting?

Jones: Yeah, and then when I figured out you can't make any money at this, I 21:00worked at, I think, three different radio stations and did some disc jockeying in several clubs. I think even having your own show, I made five dollars an hour, so I decided I should probably go into business. At that time, I remarried, and we went to OSU-Okmulgee. He graduated before I did.

Little Thunder: And at OSU-Okmulgee, you were still on the business track?

Jones: Yeah, still on business. We started the first-ever Native American Student Association (I think we called it ASA) and had the first-ever powwow there.

Little Thunder: Which your grandmother--.

Jones: My grandmother helped put together, and a lot of our members were already 22:00dancers and already knew all they needed to do. I got plumed that year.

Little Thunder: Oh, neat.

Jones: Pretty awesome.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's very awesome.

Jones: Then we transferred up to Paducah, Kentucky, and I went to work for a radio station.

Little Thunder: This was you and your husband--

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: --both? Okay--.

Jones: Yeah, and then he got transferred again, and I went back to school. Went to Kaskaskia College in Centralia, Illinois, and got an associate's degree in two or three different things, retail management, business association, and 23:00maybe marketing. I don't know. I took so many different classes that it just all--. I had several different, little things. Then we got transferred again to Houston. They had the Katy Mills mall, and it was a little different type of mall. I was general manager of two toy stores there, Toyco and Playco. Don't suggest it. I think they take your retail managers and plug them in until they burn you completely out. Then we got transferred again to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and we were finally back home.

Little Thunder: Wow, and you're raising your family, your kids at that time, too.

Jones: Yeah, that's when I went to OSU.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Jones: Yeah, and raising seven kids in the middle of all that.

Little Thunder: At OSU, you decided on some specifics, a specific track, sort of?

Jones: It was still business.

Little Thunder: And was it a graduate degree, or was it--

Jones: No, I was just working on my bachelor's.

Little Thunder: What was the difference between OSU, maybe, and what you'd gotten--.Jones: Well, I can tell you. At OSU-Okmulgee, I ran back into Sandy and her husband--

Little Thunder: That's neat.

Jones: ...and her sister. They were all my teachers again.

Little Thunder: Wow! (Laughter)

Jones: Yeah! It was pretty neat.

Little Thunder: That is awesome.

Jones: It was awesome. I hated leaving Okmulgee. I really did.

Little Thunder: I bet. I bet. When you were at OSU-Stillwater--or were you going to the Extension?

Jones: I went to OSU-Tulsa and OSU-Stillwater.

Little Thunder: Yeah, traveled back and forth. So at OSU, what kind of skills 25:00did you pick up that maybe built upon what you had, that you felt made a difference?

Jones: Oh, at OSU?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Jones: I think at OSU they just want you to learn to learn and give you the skills and knowledge that we're in a trending, technological--and that this is how you find what you need to find because you do a lot of research papers and things because you're always going to be wanting to learn. I mean, everything's different from when I went to school. Not a lot of it's even applicable, (Laughs) so you have to learn to learn.

Little Thunder: Right, especially in that area of communication.

Jones: Yes, and I think they put so much pressure on you. I could say the one 26:00thing I left OSU with is learning how to push through difficult obstacles. You have three term papers, and you're striving to try to keep your grades good. You're like, "There's no way in the world I'm ever going to get this done," and you just do it. At the end, you're like, "How'd I do that?" I think that's what I learned, how to push through and learn, mostly.

Little Thunder: When did you begin getting involved with the alumni association again?

Jones: I haven't really been that awful involved with them. Mostly my dad, after my dad passed, because he loved the alumni association so much. I think since he graduated, I don't think he's missed one alumni thing all of those years. I used 27:00to go with him quite a bit. At that time, my class wasn't really even attending, raising families and things, but I went several times with him.

Little Thunder: What do you think's the most fun part about the ones that you went to?

Jones: They know how to have fun. There are judges and lawyers, and it's amazing to me the quality of people that Chilocco did raise, like I said, entrepreneurs, the quality. They were taught how to live in society and succeed, but they did know how to have fun, within reason. It was fun watching older people have fun. Now I know how to have fun, since I'm the older person now. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What would you like people to--well, you're currently self-employed.

Jones: Yes.

Little Thunder: Can you tell us a little bit about your job?

Jones: Well, I was working as--my dad and I worked together for eight years in Stillwater, and we had a diesel repair shop where I learned to be a diesel mechanic.

Little Thunder: Oh, my goodness! Your dad had a printing background, but he also--.

Jones: Yeah, and he had a bridge-building company for thirty years, him and his brother. When they got older and decided to dissolve it, Dad was wanting to get all of the equipment together and get it fixed up so they could sell it all off. We brought in a mechanic to work on things. Well, at that time, there wasn't any mechanics, diesel mechanics, in Stillwater. Next thing we know, his friends are 29:00bringing us their equipment, and we're starting to work on their equipment. Then we're like, "We probably ought to start charging," and the next thing I know, we're in a business.

Little Thunder: And you're kind of running the business side?

Jones: I'm doing the marketing, those kind of things, office stuff. Dad was in charge of the mechanics and all of those things. As time went on, next thing I knew, I'm kind of getting pulled into the shop and helping them do all kinds of little things that I didn't really, at that time, want to do. I've always been my dad's helper. He was Dennis Michael Jones: , and I was Denise Michelle Jones: , the only boy he ever got. (Laughter) I got to learn how to paint. I've got to 30:00learn how to be a finish carpenter. I got to learn how to do construction work, learned how to diesel mechanic. We ended up dissolving [B. C.] and then opening up D. J. Construction and Repair. We did that for about eight years until my dad got real sick. Prior to that, when he had started getting kind of sick, we thought, well, we'll just--I couldn't imagine running it without him. We went ahead and had a big auction, and most of the stuff that was bought was bought by this construction company. Since Dad was in construction all those years, he really liked [Robby], and he would give him advice.

Next thing I know, my sick dad is working for Robby. I'm coming over, and I'm 31:00noticing that he is doing things that he shouldn't be doing, so I start helping him on my spare time. Next thing I know, I'm working with Robby. He and I are fixing equipment together again, and then he got too sick for it. I remember him being in the hospital, and me, still asking him questions on some of the things because we worked on such a wide variety of stuff. After he passed, I really had a hard time doing that anymore, so I packed up and moved to Tulsa, be a little closer to my grown kids. Ended up going to work for, well, I went to work for a manufacturer that sublet. We did airplane parts and stuff. When I figured out 32:00100 degrees, 108 in the flash rooms, as cool as it gets in there, I called a friend. I'm like, "Do you have any positions open over there?" She goes, "Yeah," so next thing I knew, I was in medical records. I ended up from medical records into the office, working as an administrative assistant. Then they started having me doing some of their marketing for them.

Then from that, I went to marketing director of five nursing homes and one assisted living that they had. I did that until they had one of them close, and it was the one that I homed out of. At that particular time--kind of like my 33:00dad, I work a lot. I had been, on weekends when I wasn't doing anything, I was Uber and Lyft driving. Well, I was finding out at that particular time that I was making more doing that and less days than what I--so then I moved on into doing that. We later started noticing Uber wouldn't let you have tips on the app or anything, but they had lost a class-action lawsuit saying that we couldn't have a tip. Some of my comrades and I, couple of them, we came up with a company called Tipsters. We made lighted tip cups and light kits for your car, so that--. Our logo is "making tipping fun" because it has a remote control, it goes to the music, but you still have your tip jar there. It was kind of our way 34:00at that time to say, "Yeah, we can have tips." We pretty much was on the forefront of helping rideshare drivers get tips.

Little Thunder: You had a lot of the ideas for the marketing of that.

Jones: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Well, what would you like people to know or remember about Chilocco?

Jones: It was family.

Little Thunder: Very literally for you, and emotionally.

Jones: Yes, and for a lot of the students, it was the only family they had.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else we should talk about that we haven't?

Jones: Can't think of anything yet. After you're gone, probably. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, thank you for your time today.

Jones: Well, thank you.

Little Thunder: Just a little postscript about taking kids home [from Chilocco].

Jones: Yeah, I think probably one of the most memorable things was my dad would always want me to bring some of the kids home with me. He knew that some of them was so far away from their families, and that some maybe didn't have any family and came from all kind of different situations. Every week, I would bring one of my friends home with me, and it was awesome.

Little Thunder: All right.

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