Oral history interview with Woody Kinney

Milligan: All right, so this is Sarah Milligan with the Oklahoma State University Library. Today's date is June 17, 2017. I'm at the Chilocco annual reunion just north of Newkirk, doing interviews with Chilocco alumni military veterans, and I'm talking to Woody Kinney . We're going to talk a little bit about his time at Chilocco and a little bit about his time in the military. That's the most formal this thing's going to get, at all. So I like to start with just a little bit of background, now that I know your family intimately after an hour and a half. (Laughs) I'd like to--just a little bit, like, who are your parents, do you have any siblings, where were you born, just some 1:00background information.

Kinney: I was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, Claremore Indian Hospital, raised in Wewoka, Oklahoma. My parents, my dad was Wilson Kinney; my mother is Jennie Chupco Kinney. I'm one of twelve children, of which my mother and dad both went to Chilocco. My older brother and sister both went to Chilocco.

Milligan: So when did your mom and dad go to Chilocco, what time period?

Kinney: In the ʼ30s. My dad attended Chilocco but did not graduate there. He had to leave to take care of his parents and ended up graduating from Bacone 2:00[College]. My mother is a 1938 graduate of Chilocco.

Milligan: I see. Did they know each other from Chilocco?

Kinney: No. My older brother is a 1959 graduate. My older sister is a 1962 graduate. I attended Chilocco as a postgraduate from 1961 to '63.

Milligan: So how old were you, then, when you came into Chilocco?

Kinney: When I came to Chilocco I was eighteen.

Milligan: Well, help me understand because that's sort of an unusual thing. What made you decide to come to Chilocco?

Kinney: To come to Chilocco?

Milligan: Yeah.

Kinney: I guess you might say that I'm one of those that didn't know what they were going to do when they finished high school. I know that today everybody knows what they're going to do. I was not one of those. I did well in school. My 3:00counselor always thought I'd go to college, and (you might say I was a rebel) I said, "No, I'm not." (Laughter) When I finished, I actually went to BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] to see the social worker about going to Haskell [Indian Nations University]. They told me there was no room for me at Haskell, but they told me I could go to Chilocco. Then she gave me a list of trades that I could take. Believe it or not, I just went down the list, took my finger, said, "I'll take printing."

Milligan: Really?

Kinney: That's how I chose my vocation. (Laughs) Anyway, I came to Chilocco to learn a trade.

Milligan: Okay. So that's interesting that you have all this family history 4:00there, but that's not necessarily why you ended up coming here.

Kinney: No, no. Well, that's because back then (I don't know if you're that familiar) we started out going to boarding schools. I started out from the beginning. First five years, started at Jones Academy, then I went to Carter Seminary.

Milligan: Oh, did you? So you weren't in the Wewoka public school system?

Kinney: Yeah, until the fifth grade or sixth grade.

Milligan: So you were in Jones?

Kinney: Jones, I was only at Jones one semester. Then I went to Carter Seminary for five years. Then they told us that we were better off at home because we had both parents and my dad worked. I think they forgot that there was twelve of us. (Laughs) Anyway, they wouldn't let us go to boarding school until later on. That 5:00was my first time I could go back to a boarding school, was because I needed to learn a trade. Then I had a reason to go.

Milligan: Yeah. Did you want to go back to a boarding school before that?

Kinney: I didn't really give it much thought that I can remember. I had to do something, and that's what I did.

Milligan: Yeah. Well, when you transitioned from the boarding school back into public school, how was that? Do you remember?

Kinney: It was always an adjustment, now that I reflect back on that, because in one situation you're with all Indian people, and then you are then thrown into public schools, which is different. When I went back to Chilocco, then I had to readjust again. Here I am again with all Indians. Like I say, when I reflect on it as an adult, I can see where I had to make some changes.

Milligan: Were the changes in just the way that you interacted with each other?

Kinney: Primarily, primarily.

Milligan: Okay. Your two older siblings were the only ones that came to Chilocco as students, then?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: I wonder if there's a reason why your other siblings didn't end up after--. Well, you all were the first three. There's still nine left, right? Did any of them end up doing boarding school stints--

Kinney: [Yes. Three others attended Carter Seminary when I was there.]

Milligan: --or did they all stay in the public school system?

Kinney: They [attended] the public schools [when we could no longer attend Carter Seminary.]

Milligan: Okay. That's interesting. So when you did decide, when you couldn't get into Haskell and they sent you over to Chilocco, do you remember, like, did you care? Was it--were you interested in that?

Kinney: Well, you got to realize I'm a teenager, and my cousins that I grew up 7:00around back home, they all went to Haskell. They all got to go to Haskell, so I wanted to go to Haskell. That was the reason I wanted to go to Haskell; it wasn't because of the school. (Laughs) It was because of who was going there.

Milligan: So did you know anybody at Chilocco--.

Kinney: When I got here, yes I did.

Milligan: Oh, you did, okay.

Kinney: Yeah. I didn't know they were here, (Laughter) but, yes, I knew people. I knew several.

Milligan: So who did you end up knowing? Were they family members or just--.

Kinney: No, we grew up in a church. Our churches back home, they belonged to an association. They were primarily all Indian churches, so I had known--you grow up seeing the same people at different conferences and--meetings. Of course, 8:00we'd camp out for those three- or four-day meetings. I got to know a lot of other people my age because we attended bible study classes together.

Milligan: Was that the same church that--so I was just talking to your cousin Charles [Chupco], (Sequoyah, that you know him as). Is that the same church that his grandfather was a--he was a Methodist.

Kinney: He's Methodist; I'm a Baptist.

Milligan: You're a Baptist, so they were two different--.

Kinney: Two different groups--

Milligan: I got it, okay. I was just curious.

Kinney: --but it was probably the same type.

Milligan: (Laughs) Yeah.

Kinney: Just different denominations. The guys that I ended up rooming with at Chilocco were guys that I already knew, (Laughs) two of them. Two of them were guys I already knew.

Milligan: That doesn't sound terrible. Well, I don't know. Maybe you didn't like them. (Laughter) Do you remember when you first went to Chilocco, then? Like, in 9:00your learning all this, do you kind of even remember maybe your first day?

Kinney: No, I don't recall that.

Milligan: That's fine. I mean, I don't think I would, either. When you went there and you arbitrarily chose printing, did you end up liking it?

Kinney: Yes, I did.

Milligan: Really?

Kinney: I did real well at it.

Milligan: So you were there for two years, learning the trade?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: What would be some of the things that you would do to learn, to be able to get skills?

Kinney: I--you met George England here at the--.

Milligan: Oh, yes.

Kinney: Well, his parents [Virgil and Iva Mae England] were my instructors, and they were very good at what they did. I learned pretty much the whole deal. They 10:00moved me from one--there are different types of things that you do in printing, and so I pretty much learned most all the different types of skills that you have to know in the printing trade. I was allowed because I was a postgrad. There was four or five of us that were postgrads, and then the rest of them were high school students that would come in during either the morning or afternoon. Mr. England pretty much allowed me to do kind of a leadership type of thing with others. There were people that came in that wanted to look around. He'd have me show them around and teach them or show them what we did, that type of thing. I learned the trade pretty well, in a broad way. When I got out of the service, I 11:00worked as a printer for ten years, so I actually used my trade.

Milligan: You did!

Kinney: Yeah.

Milligan: That's fantastic, and even after you did military service, and that was even pretty far removed from your teaching.

Kinney: Yeah, it was four years.

Milligan: Yeah. You still retained that.

Kinney: Yeah. Mr. England--I maintained contact with him. I knew where he was. He had already told me that when I got out he'd help me find work. I maintained contact with him, and when I got out of the service, then, I did contact him. He lived in Independence, Missouri, and he asked me if I would move there. I said, "Yes, I will." I went there, and he found me a job. I worked there for some time.

Milligan: So was that pretty common for the Englands to do that?

Kinney: I think so. I mean, they would help their students because he had a lot of contacts with people in the industry.

Milligan: That's interesting; that's pretty neat. Did you have much interaction, besides in the classroom, with the high school students?

Kinney: With the high school students, well, yeah. We lived in the same dorm, so yes.

Milligan: So all the same thing, you shared the campus--.

Kinney: Yeah.

Milligan: Did you have a similar schedule that they did?

Kinney: Right, same schedule.

Milligan: So you were here two years. Did you have anything to do with the National Guard unit at all, here on campus?

Kinney: No, I didn't.

Milligan: Not at all? So what led you--you came here to get a trade, so what led 13:00you to the military, then?

Kinney: I always knew I was going to go.

Milligan: Really?

Kinney: Yes. My dad was in World War II, fought in the Philippines and the islands there. I knew that. I just assumed I would go in the military. Then, of course, we had the draft back then. When I left Chilocco after I'd been here two years, I'm twenty years old. I knew my greetings letter was coming, (Laughs) so I said, "I don't want to be drafted." I volunteered. I enlisted, and that way, I got to choose what branch of service I wanted to go to.

Milligan: Tell me about that. How did you make that choice?

Kinney: You want me to tell my funny side?

Milligan: Yeah, you can tell funny and serious sides of the whole thing if you want.

Kinney: When people ask me this, this is what I tell them. I didn't know how to swim; I still don't know how to swim. I checked out the branches of service. I said, "If I go in the Army, I'm going to have to know how to swim. I'm going to get in the water somewhere. If I go in the Marines, I'm going to have to know how to swim. If I go into the Navy, I'm going to have to know how to swim. Air Force, the chances are kind of slim, so I'm going in the Air Force."

Milligan: Is that true, your aversion to water?

Kinney: That's true, yeah! (Laughter) You've never heard that one, have you?

Milligan: No! (Laughter) Mostly just for the Navy, but I've never heard it in 15:00earnestness. That's funny. So did you like the Air Force?

Kinney: Yes. (Laughs)

Milligan: You worked out; you didn't have to swim. (Laughter)

Kinney: It worked out.

Milligan: What'd you do when you went in? So what, like, walk me through, like, enlisting, and where did you go after that?

Kinney: I enlisted, and I went to Lackland Air Force Base. To tell you the truth, when I enlisted and I came to Oklahoma City, I enlisted at Holdenville, and my recruiter told me what day I would be leaving. It was over the Labor Day holiday, so I couldn't leave until Tuesday. I came to Oklahoma City and went through all the physical and all this, but to be honest with you, I didn't know I was leaving that day. I didn't tell my parents that I was leaving. (Laughs) Four o'clock that afternoon, I'm raising my hand and taking my oath, and they're 16:00taking us to the airport. I stopped on the way and dropped them a card and said, "I'm gone." (Laughs)

Milligan: Wow.

Kinney: That's how they found out where I was at.

Milligan: When you saw them the next time, did they say anything about it?

Kinney: Well, it was Christmas by then, several months later.

Milligan: Yeah. What did you think you were going to do that day? (Laughs)

Kinney: I didn't know. I had no idea.

Milligan: So where'd they take you?

Kinney: You got to realize, I'm twenty years old. I'm pretty free to do whatever I want to. I'm independent. My parents aren't telling me what to do or where to go. I've already been gone for two years. Once I left at eighteen, I never went back to live at home again.

Milligan: I see. So there wasn't a period in between Chilocco and...

Kinney: No.

Milligan: --enlisting, that you were sort of back at home.

Kinney: No, I went home for two weeks and then joined the Air Force.

Milligan: I mean, I get that by that point, your parents aren't watching everything you're doing, but when they think you might come home for dinner and you don't show up, that's--. (Laughs)

Kinney: No, they're not going to worry about it because I'm an adult, as far as they're concerned at that point.

Milligan: All right.

Kinney: Because, like I said, I never went home once I came to Chilocco. I worked during the summer here at Chilocco.

Milligan: You stayed on campus.

Kinney: I stayed pretty much year-round for two years.

Milligan: So what was your job during the summer, then?

Kinney: Same thing.

Milligan: Still just printing?

Kinney: Working at the print shop because we did all the forms and everything for the school--so we did the printing for the school.

Milligan: That's the thing I think a lot of people who, I mean, who don't know much about this campus. It was so self-sufficient. Even the things--we print our 18:00own material to use in school, right, in the classrooms and in the admin office.

Kinney: Yes, so we printed all that material for them.

Milligan: Good. So you enlisted, or you got deployed, essentially. You went to basic training at that point?

Kinney: I went to basic training and tech school at Lackland--

Milligan: That's when you were in Lackland.

Kinney: --Lackland Air Force Base, San Antonio.

Milligan: Yeah. So what--do you remember getting started there? Do you remember getting--did you get bused down there, I guess?

Kinney: We flew.

Milligan: Oh, did you? Oh, Air Force, of course you flew, sorry. (Laughter)

Kinney: No, we flew commercial. (Laughter)

Milligan: Oh, really?

Kinney: Yeah. That was my first airplane ride.

Milligan: Do you remember that?

Kinney: Oh, yeah. That's the first time I'd ever been on a plane. (Laughs)

Milligan: Little taste of what's to come.

Kinney: It was kind of fun. I mean, we rode in one of them old prop jets from here to Dallas, and then we got on a jet from there to San Antonio.

Milligan: How did you find military life when you first started then, when you moved into boot camp?

Kinney: It was pretty much--I think the fact that I grew up in boarding schools basically, I was already, I knew how to fix my bed; I knew how to take care of myself where others did not, where mamas had been having to do it for them. I was already past that stage, and so it was not difficult for me to adjust to the military just because I'm already used to kind of a regimented life, in a sense. I'm used to standing in line for chow and all that.

Milligan: I'm curious about that, too, because when you talked about moving from 20:00the boarding schools, when you were younger, back to public schools, before you went to Chilocco, was that one of the transition, is going from a sort of regimented day--.

Kinney: No, I think that for me it was more of the fact that--I look at Indian people. We have our own way of interacting with one another, and sometimes other races don't understand us. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying.

Milligan: I do. I watch y'all. It's great.

Kinney: When I went to public school, then some of the things I'm accustomed to doing or saying to another person, I can't do that anymore.

Milligan: I see.

Kinney: I have to do things differently. That's why I say I think you have to 21:00adjust to that. Then when I came back and I'm back among Indian people again, then I've got to readjust. That's what I see when I reflect back because that's the kind of things I had to change.

Milligan: How did that translate whenever you went into the military, because you're still in the--it's not a group home, but it's the same sort of--.

Kinney: Right, and I think a lot of that is still there. I'm among blacks and whites and even some Asian, and we're all different. That, to me, when I say I adjusted well is because of that, that I'd already had to do that.

Milligan: I see. Were there many other Native Americans with you whenever you were at boot camp?

Kinney: There was only one.

Milligan: Really?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: Did you know that person?

Kinney: I met him, would you believe, at the bus station when I was getting ready to go take my physical. We met at the bus station, walked together to the motel, to the Roberts Hotel in Oklahoma City. He was from Ada, and he and I went through boot camp together.

Milligan: Oh, really?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: Did you all become friends then?

Kinney: Not necessarily. We knew one another. Course, there, you're doing your own thing. You're not necessarily hanging out together, just having fun--. I'd always wondered what happened to him. I never saw him after we left boot camp. Would you believe, I finally saw him about two years ago. His wife happened to 23:00be friends with my sister, and they sang in a group together. I just happened to ask her if she knew this guy. "That's my husband!" Then I told her our story, and she said, "He's right over there." (Laughs)

Milligan: Did you go talk to him?

Kinney: Yeah, she brought him over and introduced him. (Laughs)

Milligan: That's funny.

Kinney: Yeah, it is. Been, what, sixty years, about fifty years.

Milligan: Yeah. Did you all have the same memories about boot camp? Did you talk at all?

Kinney: You know what? We didn't even talk about that.

Milligan: You didn't even talk about it! Just about what you've been doing since.

Kinney: Yeah, just normal stuff.

Milligan: Well, yeah, I know. That's interesting. Well, so if you and he were the only Indians down there at boot camp--.

Kinney: Well, in our group, our flight.

Milligan: Oh, just your specific group that went in together.

Kinney: Right, yeah.

Milligan: Did you feel--I mean, that's a pretty heavy minority. Did you feel 24:00like that was an issue, or did you feel singled out in any ways?

Kinney: No, I didn't. In a way, my experience in the military, being Indian worked to my advantage in many ways. By that, what I mean is, like, I think it was on the second or third day after we reported for basic training. Our, we called them TIs, training instructors; he's the one that's marching us around and barking at us all the time. He pulled me aside and said, "You're my first squad leader." I became first squad leader, (I don't remember if it was the second or third day of camp) which means I'm the first guy up here right by him, so to speak, in the front row. Everything that we do, guess who goes first? Me!

Milligan: Were you happy about that or--.

Kinney: It didn't bother me, no.

Milligan: Why do you think he did that?

Kinney: I think he--what I have seen in many times, I think people think that Indians have a sense, might say a sixth sense, about doing things. Many times we're put in those positions because they think we're something different when we're not. (Laughs)

Milligan: So sort of the stereotypes that are out there about what an Indian is, that sort of mystic-ness that some people put around it, then, is what you're--. Did you see that a lot, really?

Kinney: Yeah, I saw that occasionally. That wasn't the only time during my 26:00military that I saw that happen.

Milligan: You said that you think that some of that was to your advantage.

Kinney: Yeah, because even there, I look at the funny side. Because I was the first squad leader, when we had KP, I marched the guys to the chow hall for KP. I did not have to stay. I went back to the barracks and slid under the bunk and went to sleep. (Laughs)

Milligan: There's some good leadership skills you've got there. (Laughs)

Kinney: And when it was time to go get them, I slid back out, went back out there, and brought them back to the barracks. That's why I say there's some advantages there. (Laughter)

Milligan: Yeah, well, so I'll be curious about where those sort of points pop up 27:00as your time in the military went on. What did you do after basic training? Where'd you go?

Kinney: I got put into air police school. When you're going through all of the testing prior to going to basic, they test you, and they give you these scores, general, administrative, and electronic. I don't remember what they call it. Anyway, my highest score was in administrative, but I had printing. I'd already had two years of training. Of course, they told me that they could get me in 28:00printing, but it happened to be in the general field. When I did that, then they sent me to police. Then I could never get out of the air police because it was, they term it, a critical field, so I never got into printing while I was in the service.

Milligan: You didn't get to follow through with that?

Kinney: No.

Milligan: So they put you in air police. You said that they kept you in a critical field because that's--well, explain that to me. What do you mean by that?

Kinney: By that, I guess the manpower, they had to keep the manpower. Other than that, I don't know why. Once you got in, you couldn't get out of it.

Milligan: So were you on patrol? Were you, like, actively part of the police--.

Kinney: First two years of my military, I was in what was called security. What 29:00we did there is we were responsible for the aircraft. We guard them, would guard the aircraft. We guard the perimeters. Base I was at was what we called a SAC base, strategic air command base, and we had nuclear weapons. We had to maintain security for the weapons. If they brought them out to load in the plane or download, we were there. We had to escort them everywhere they went. We were responsible for that. That was the security part. Actually, after about two years, we had what we called a K9 unit. This is where they had the dogs. There 30:00were probably eight to ten guys, handlers with dogs, for that unit. I actually volunteered to go to that.

I had just completed two years of service at that point because I remember it was, like, October of '65. They brought me in and said, "We can't transfer you to that unit." Of course, I had to ask why, and they said, "Because you've got to have two years left of your enlistment before you can do that." So they didn't let me in, but, believe it or not, God looked after me because by April of '66, which was roughly five, six months after this, all of our K9 units--they 31:00were gone [to Vietnam]. They put me in what we call base police, which is the law enforcement part. I got out of security, into base police, so I spent the remainder of my enlistment in base police. This is where we actually patrol and check buildings and--.

Milligan: Yeah. I wonder if when they told you that you had to have two years in, were they trying to get you to extend your--.

Kinney: I think it had to do with the training.

Milligan: Oh, okay.

Kinney: They invest in the training.

Milligan: So it really, you didn't feel it was like a--.

Kinney: No, I didn't think it was a--.

Milligan: --trying to negotiate you back in?

Kinney: No, the part that I was told I'd have to extend for was--when I got out 32:00of tech school, I was sent back to Oklahoma. I don't know if you know where Clinton-Sherman [Air Force Base] was; it's no longer there. It's out here between Clinton and Elk City in western Oklahoma, Burns Flat. I did not want to come back to Oklahoma when I joined the service. That was not my intent. My intent was I wanted to see something different. I'd never been in western Oklahoma at this point in my life. I didn't know that something was west of Oklahoma City. (Laughs) I wanted to get out of Oklahoma, and they sent me back to Oklahoma. I went to our administration personnel and put in a worldwide 33:00volunteer statement. I said, "I'll go anywhere. Just send me."

Milligan: Just get me out of Oklahoma.

Kinney: Yeah, but it didn't work out. Then I was told, after I had less than a year left, that if I got a transfer now, I'd have to extend for it. I said, "No. I'm not extending." I went over there and removed my volunteer statement.

Milligan: And just finished your time out?

Kinney: Just finished my enlistment.

Milligan: Yeah, so was that when you were doing base patrol at that time?

Kinney: Yeah. I was on base police, and I did well in there. By that I mean I 34:00was a flight leader, what we call a flight leader. I was the desk sergeant. I was a E-4 by then. I had seniority, you might say, over a lot of the others. It wasn't like I had a hard life. (Laughter)

Milligan: Was there a point where you actually thought about extending?

Kinney: No, because I didn't want to stay in the field I was in. The only way that I would have done that was if I could get into something else. They do have what they call a reenlistment talk with you. They did tell me they would do that, but I told them, I said, "You know, you lied to me once. You're not going to get a second chance. I'm gone."

Milligan: Do you feel like that was the right thing for you to do, looking back?

Kinney: I think it was. Yes, I do.

Milligan: Yeah, so you got your four years in, and you didn't end up--that was a volatile time to be in the military, in general.

Kinney: Yes, it was. Yeah, I think about that sometimes, particularly when you guys asked to interview us. When I went in in 1963, if you look at the state of the world at that point, in 1961 they had just built the Berlin Wall; 1962 they had the Bay of Pigs; fall of '62, I think, they had the Cuban Missile Crisis. This Cold War thing was in full force with Russia. Then the Vietnam thing was 36:00heating up, so it wasn't a peaceful time.

Milligan: But not just if you were out in the world, but stateside, too, it seems like.

Kinney: Yeah, there was a lot of protests.

Milligan: Well, that for sure. Did that impact your time at all?

Kinney: It didn't impact me, no. I didn't think very much of it. When you're the guy over there trying to serve your country, and you got all these guys over here that are protesting, to me they're not contributing anything. It's not very comfortable.

Milligan: Even your position where you were in security and you were on a lot of these SACs, right, and there was nuclear weapons, you bring up a good point and 37:00a good context that it was the Cold War. I mean, that was a big deal.

Kinney: Yeah, see, our responsibility as a base, we kept, I think there were eight or ten aircraft on alert twenty-four hours a day, and they're loaded. They're not just waiting to be loaded; they're ready to go. Then we, as a base, had to participate in what was called Chrome Dome. I don't think I'm giving anything away. I've heard it on James Bond. I've heard our same codes on James Bond, so I guess it doesn't make any difference. It was an operation called Chrome Dome, which means a number of aircraft, B-52s like we had, had to be in 38:00the air twenty-four hours a day. Our base would take their turn, and we'd send them off. They'd stay up there twenty-four hours or whatever. They'd come back; another one would take off.

Milligan: So what was their job?

Kinney: They're protecting the skies.

Milligan: Just watching for--.

Kinney: They're ready to go wherever they need to go.

Milligan: How long did that last?

Kinney: That would last, maybe, for the base, maybe thirty days or so. -- That was our responsibility.

Milligan: So you knew that you were, you had an inkling you were going to be in a short term, but you had a job that was pretty--I mean, you were around some 39:00serious stuff, still, right?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: So did you think much about that? Like, what you were doing in the context of what was going on with the world at that time?

Kinney: No.

Milligan: No? (Laughter)

Kinney: You know, I tell my wife and kids this: when you're that age, you're not married. I wasn't, anyway. I'm single, and you just do it. You're told to do this, and you do it. You don't really question why you're doing it. I guess my mind wasn't serious enough to try to figure all this out. (Laughs) Now that I think about it, not when it was going on.

Milligan: Right. No, I can understand that. I was just curious. Also, I mean, I 40:00have no idea what you knew at the time versus what you know now, looking backwards, right? So when you were just basically putting one foot in front of the other and following orders, did you have a lot of other information other than "this is what your job is today"?

Kinney: Well, we knew what we were doing, the overall mission. We knew what was going on.

Milligan: It just seems like it would be heavy. I totally get what you're saying, that when you're twenty and twenty-one, you just do it. It just seems like that's a heavy responsibility to be part of, but looking, that's only from a real adult perspective. (Laughs)

Kinney: Yeah, yeah.

Milligan: Well, so when it was time to get out, what was the first thing that you did then, like when you said, "I'm done. I'm not reenlisting. Stop trying to 41:00talk me into it"?

Kinney: This is where I knew that--first of all, I grew up working. My dad taught me to work. We were always taught that you're going to take care of yourself. My dad taught me, you take care of your family. These are things, you might say, instilled. His thing was, you're either working or you're in school, one or the other. When I got done, I knew I was going to go to work. There's nobody going to provide a home for me. This is something I have to take care of myself, so I knew I was going to have to go to work. This is when I was probably out of the service, maybe, a couple weeks when I contacted Mr. England and let 42:00him know that I needed a job. That's when he invited me to come to Independence.

Milligan: So had he left Chilocco by that point then, or was he still--.

Kinney: Yeah, he was retired.

Milligan: Okay. So I don't--we don't have to spend too much time talking about that, but I'm curious. So you stayed in that job for a long time, but was it an easy transition for you to make back into printing or printing full-time?

Kinney: What, from the Air Force to printing?

Milligan: Yeah.

Kinney: I don't remember it being difficult. By that, I mean I was getting ready to get married.

Milligan: Oh, yeah?

Kinney: Yeah. I got married in, what? I got out in September; we got married in November.

Milligan: Where did you meet your wife?

Kinney: There. She came to Chilocco, also. She's a graduate of Chilocco.

Milligan: Did you meet her while you were here on campus?

Kinney: Yes and no. I knew her brother better than I knew her. Her brother was a roommate to some friends of mine, and so when I would go down to their room, he was there. I knew her brother, and so that's kind of what was my connection to her. I knew she was his sister and because she's a bit younger than me. That was about the extent of our knowledge of one another (Laughs) at school.

Milligan: So where did you meet her if you were--

Kinney: At Clinton.

Milligan: Oh! She was out there.

Kinney: Yeah, that's her hometown, and so that's where I met her. We got to know one another there.

Milligan: I see. So when you got--you definitely needed a job then.

Kinney: Yes, yes. (Laughter)

Milligan: So you all picked up and moved to Missouri then, or you picked up and moved to Missouri?

Kinney: I moved to Missouri. I stayed there maybe six weeks, and I came back, came back to Oklahoma City and found a job here in Oklahoma City. It was not hard to find a job.

Milligan: In printing?

Kinney: In printing.

Milligan: Really?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: Who were you working for? What were you doing?

Kinney: First job I had, it was called box printing. We printed these big olʽ carton boxes, which I hated. Then I kept looking for a job that I wanted, even while working. I learned that about life, that you don't leave one job without knowing where you're going to the next one. Anyway, I found the job that I wanted, and that's the one that I ended up staying with for ten years.

Milligan: What did you do after the ten years?

Kinney: I started college. I was thirty-two years old by then. I was thirty-two when I first took my first college course. By then, I had my wife; I had two kids. I decided that I didn't want to do printing the rest of my life because I was a pressman. I'm running fairly large presses, and I'm lifting all of these big, heavy papers to load, oh. I didn't know about the technology that's going to come to do it all automatic now. I looked around Oklahoma City. I was in the union, and I knew a lot of the craftsmen in the trade around Oklahoma City. What 46:00I noticed was that there was nobody over forty years old that was running presses anymore.

They either found something else to do, they changed vocation, changed their work, or they formed their own business. They didn't want to lift. I decided then that it's time to go back to school. That's when I started taking some college courses at night. I went to, it was then called Oscar Rose Junior College in Midwest City, which is now Rose State. I stayed there until, went there until I was three hours short of an associate degree. I decided that wasn't my goal and I wasn't going to go back the next semester for three hours. Then I went to what was then called Central State, UCO today, and I finished my 47:00bachelor's at Central. Then I decided, "Well, why not get a master's?" I stayed out one semester, then I started on my master's program. Then I finished my master's program in 1981.

Milligan: At what point--how old were you then when you got done with all that?

Kinney: I was thirty-nine. Took me seven years from the time I started to the time I finished.

Milligan: What were you majoring in?

Kinney: Business, master's in business administration.

Milligan: So all the way through?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: Did you have a goal in mind?

Kinney: Well, I changed; this is where I changed. I went to work for Indian Health Service after I'd been printing for ten years. This is when I changed and went to work for Indian Health Service, which is a federal agency. I'm one of 48:00those that don't have any sense or--. (Laughs) I've been blessed, let me put it that way. I took the job with Indian Health Service on a sixth-month temporary, for something like two dollars and fifty cents an hour. I don't know. Just took the chance, and I did it. Course, I was going to school, so I was getting the GI Bill. That helped where I could make ends meet and we could still live, but as it turned out, I got a permanent job after a few months. I was able to, you 49:00might say, get my promotions, do things. Finally, within, when I look back now, it was actually a short period of time, I got into management. I spent my last fifteen years as director of HR.

Milligan: Wow. That's a big change--

Kinney: Yeah.

Milligan: --from where you started. When you were working for Indian Health Services for that period of time, I'm curious about a lot of things with that, too, because they do a lot of veteran services, too. Was that something that you had any interest to get into, or things you touched on, because that's two different parts of your life, right, with your veteran service and working there.

Kinney: It didn't really. Those two never really came into play, not with one 50:00another. Course, when I got employed I had veteran's preference, but from that point, it never came into play. Course, the federal government has a lot of programs that we had to administer where you give preference to veterans nowadays, that type of thing that we had to comply with. Personally, it didn't affect me.

Milligan: Yeah. Well, from an HR standpoint, too--. That's interesting. So did you enjoy working at the Indian Health Services?

Kinney: Yes, I did.

Milligan: Did you?

Kinney: Yes.

Milligan: What did you like about it?

Kinney: Getting to help people, yeah. By that, I mean from both ends, when I say "getting to help people." Course, we're in the medical business, trying to meet 51:00people's medical needs. That part is good, but on the HR side, I found many opportunities to help people get employed. I found many opportunities to counsel. Many times, we're dealing with people just like any other company or business that had problems, whether it would be performance or conduct. They're humans. I think the satisfaction I got was when I saw somebody that we gave a second chance to and they made it.

Milligan: Did you get to do that often?

Kinney: Occasionally. As an example, I attend church in Oklahoma City, Glorieta Baptist Church, and a few years ago a lady came on Wednesday night that I knew from when I was working. She came to me, and she said, "Hey, Woody, I was just coming to tell you that I'm retiring." I said, "You are?" She said, "Yeah, and I want to thank you." The reason she said that was she had a problem. When she worked for us, we had to let her go. She would reapply, keep trying to come back to work, and, of course, that's on her record that they wouldn't hire her. She 53:00came to me one day and told me she was applying for this job again, and it was in my office. She told me her situation, and I just told her, I said, "Okay, here's what we're going to do, me and you. -- I'll tell them to hire you, but here's the situation. If it ever happens again, if you mess up, you're gone, no ifs, ands, or buts, and you and I know." She said, "Okay," and she made it.

Milligan: That is something that's special. What's also special is that she got the opportunity to talk to you about it.

Kinney: Yeah, and there's others that way.

Milligan: Yeah. Well, I also see when you tell your own story, there's people, 54:00it sounds like, that were in your life that helped guide you when you might have needed it, in different directions.

Kinney: Sure there are. A lot of that is, you build relationships, and I've always been a believer in relationships. I've always told people that worked for me, "You don't do everything by phone. You get out there and meet the people. Find out who they are. If they know you and you know them, you're going to be able to work a lot better." Here's the thing that I always found interesting when we go back to Chilocco. Because of the position I was in, I got to work with, because IHS has facilities all over the country, and periodically we would have meetings that were in different parts of the country. Probably 99 percent 55:00of the time, I'd meet somebody from Chilocco. They had a connection to Chilocco. That's our common ground. That's how I built a lot of my relationships was that. They'd find out I went to Chilocco; they went to Chilocco; we had something to talk about; and we'd get to know one another. What I found was, and as you know, networking is a big thing if a person will use it, learn how to use it, do it right. When I needed help with something, all I had to do is pick up the phone, and there they were. I found that to be a big advantage to me.

As an example, I had one man that worked for me, and he worked for me for years. He's Indian, but he didn't grow up in the Indian world. He didn't know how to 56:00relate to Indian people. When he had to go out and talk to people, meetings or training, he had problems because, again, he doesn't know the culture, so to speak. When he was getting ready to go out, he would occasionally come to me and say, "How is it that you do that? How come you're able to do this, and how come you can talk to them?" I'd tell him, "Hey, you got to know who they are. You got to know how to speak the language. You got to know physical, the reactions of people, and Indians are different. You got to know who they are." I would coach 57:00him on how to deal with the Indian people. What I like about him was that he retired several years ago. Today he's Indian. He won a big prize at Red Earth just last week. I saw his name in the paper; he was First Place in his category. Like I said, when he was working with me, he was not Indian. Today he is.

I like that. He's earned that. In Indian Health Services and, like I said, with Chilocco, I used to occasionally go to Cherokee, North Carolina. There were Cherokee that came here to Chilocco from North Carolina. One of my trips that I 58:00was there, I was talking to the administrative officer there that I was working with at the hospital. I told her, I said, "I know some Cherokees that I went to school with that live here." She asked me who they were. I told her, and she told me where they were. One of them happened to be my roommate one year, part of the year. I told her his name, and she said, "He's sitting right over here in the conference room." (Laughs) One day while I was there, I guess she told him I was there, and several of them came by to see me. The Chilocco connection goes a long way. I go to Florida, same thing. There's Chilocco people there. I go to Phoenix, I go to California, I go to Portland, Denver, and nearly every time, I 59:00find Chilocco people.

Milligan: Do you think that people that went to other Indian schools have the same experience?

Kinney: I would hope they do. I would hope they do. Particularly the Haskell people, I think they do, just from talking to people. I think they do. Course, it's a college today, where it was a high school back when we were here.

Milligan: Right, yeah. So why do you come to the reunions?

Kinney: Why do I come? Probably because my wife wants to come. (Laughs) Because I look at it this way: technically, I'm not a graduate of Chilocco. By that, I 60:00mean, yeah, I graduated postgrad, but I didn't go to high school here. At the same time, I've got the same friends. There are some that I want to see that I know are going to be here, and this is the only time we see one another. I've got one friend that's here now, today. I had to laugh at him because--after we left school, I didn't see him for a number of years. We happened to be at the Creek Nation rodeo one year; it's been thirty, forty years ago, now. He was riding. (Laughs) He was getting bucked off this horse or something. After he got done, my wife and I went around to find him and talk to him. That's why I say you see these guys--. Over the years, I've seen him here and there, not 61:00regularly. Now he's been coming to the reunion, and so this is probably the only time I'll see him until next year, if we both make it back. Like I said, this is when we see one another.

Milligan: Well, that makes sense. I was just curious. Everyone has similar reasons but different reasons at the same time, right?

Kinney: Yeah, but my wife, like I said, she's a graduate, so a lot of her classmates are here. They come.

Milligan: Yeah. It seems like you share an experience, like you all share that experience of being on campus.

Kinney: Yeah, we do. Some of the friends are her classmates that she has. Course, when she's around them, I'm there. Now I've gotten to know them, so I'm 62:00not excluded from their group when they are sitting around talking and cutting up. (Laughs)

Milligan: Yeah, that's one thing I've appreciated the last few years that I've gotten to come to this, is there's always a lot of laughter, not surprisingly, but it's good to see. Well, I don't have anything else to ask. Do you have anything else that you want to talk about?

Kinney: No, not really. Just answer your questions.

Milligan: You did, and I really appreciate it. I know you got a little bit cornered to come in. (Laughter) I'm glad you did. It was an interesting perspective.

Kinney: Charmain [Pensoneau] was my sister's classmate.

Milligan: Oh, that makes sense.

Kinney: Yeah, so she knows who I am.

Milligan: Yeah, yeah, she takes care of business.

------- End of interview -------