Oral history interview with Art Hill, Jr.

NykolaiszynMy name is Juliana Nykolaiszyn with the Oklahoma State University Library. Today is Friday, June 16, 2017, and I'm interviewing Art Hill Jr. as part of a collaboration between the Chilocco veterans group and the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We'll be talking in this interview about some of your experiences and memories of Chilocco and life in the service. Thank you for sitting down with us today.

HillYou're welcome.

NykolaiszynWell, Art, could you begin by telling me the year you were born and where you were born?

HillI was born in 1965. I'd be smart and say "hospital," (Laughs) but I was born in Los Angeles, California.

NykolaiszynOkay, and can you tell me--a little bit about your parents?

HillWell, my dad is an alumni of Chilocco, (he was the Class of '57) and my mom is from Detroit from the Oneida Tribe. I'm both; I'm Cheyenne and Oneida. That 1:00was my mom and dad. I was close with both of them. That was one of the things that I feel was kind of lacking when I was at Chilocco was that a lot of the students that I went to school with didn't have both parents at home. I was one of the odd fellows out there that had both a mom and dad at home. I know I had classmates that all they had was Grandma and Grandpa, and some that just had a uncle or a aunt. Some of them had family that didn't even care for them. There was ones that never got anything from home. That was sad to see, but it was just a part of life, and it was a part of the way it was. It's still like that. I don't know how the kids are nowadays that are in Indian schools, but I imagine 2:00some of the same things that we went through back then, they have to be. We didn't have the technology they have.

NykolaiszynNo.

HillYou know, we were not able to text. We were not able to record anything, which, knock on wood, we're lucky we didn't (Laughs) because a lot of the smart ideas that we did and found out that they weren't so smart, it's not recorded anywhere. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynThat's probably a good thing.

HillYes, definitely.

NykolaiszynDo you have brothers and sisters?

HillYes, I had a older brother, and I had two sisters. Out of all that, I got one sister left, so that's what I have on the family side. Both my mom and dad are deceased now, and my brother and one of my sisters are deceased. Me and my other sister, we're the only ones left, so we're moving forward.

NykolaiszynDid you get to know your grandparents well, growing up?

HillI got to know my grandpa on my dad's side quite a bit. My grandpa was also a Indian school. He survived Carlisle [Indian Industrial School]. He was one of the ones where they punished him if he spoke his language. It kind of trickled down because my dad understood it but he didn't teach us. There were certain words that we picked up on that we know, but other than that there's not much language-wise. Kind of seems like it's systematic, or it's a circle that just kept going. They got ahold of my grandpa, my dad, and then, lo and behold, me. I don't have any regrets. I don't regret anything. I made a choice to go to Chilocco, and I'm glad I went because of a lot of the experiences I learned. I'll tell you some about some of them along the way as we continue on.

NykolaiszynOkay. When you were growing up, did you have a lot of exposure to Native language, Native culture? I know you mentioned a little bit about the language.

HillNot so much the language, but growing up we did go to a lot of powwows and benefit dances. Growing up in California, there was a lot of powwows, not like there are here in Oklahoma, but there was powwows that we went to. Their powwow season starts late in the summer, like, end of August, beginning of September, and it lasts through, from what I remember, to about Thanksgiving. Here, powwow season starts end of May and lasts all the way to Labor Day, and there's a different powwow every weekend, all within driving distance here. California, yeah, they're within driving distance, but some of them were three-hour drives, four-hour drives. The thing I noticed out there that was big back then was that 5:00they were starting to have the powwows in the prisons, so I remember going to about two or three powwows that were held in prisons in California. It was a different experience, going through the doors and being--. I imagine it's a lot tougher to walk in through the doors to go into a powwow there now, but back then it was just simple stuff. They just waved us all through, checked us out, and waved us on through. I don't know what that procedure would be now. I don't think I would go to a powwow at a prison now. (Laughter)

NykolaiszynAnd as a young man, how did that have an impact on you?

HillIt just seemed weird; it just seemed different. Why are these guys behind the bars? Are these bad guys? Most of them were nice. Most of them were friendly, you know. It was something that just kind of, being a kid, you just kind of played it off and wasn't no major concern. You're worried about who 6:00you're going to play with, with those other kids there. Most of the times, there was other kids there. I think there was only one occasion where I was the only kid, but that's just the way it was. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynNow, did your family remain in California, or did they eventually move?

HillNo, they moved back.

NykolaiszynOkay. When, approximately, did you move back?

HillMy little sister was born in '75, so she wasn't quite a year. We celebrated her first birthday here in Oklahoma, so that would be latter--. The football season of '75 is when we moved back. Then '76, and then here in Oklahoma. There was a period there where we did move out of state, and I went off and went to Haskell and joined the service. I didn't return back here to Oklahoma until, it must have been 2001 when I lost my dad. Other than that, I lived in Wyoming for 7:00a while, was stationed here and there in the military, and lived in other places, as well. I lived in Omaha, lived in Albuquerque. There's a big world out there. There's not just Oklahoma. There's not just this area. There's a lot of stuff out there. I can't say I've seen everything, but there's a lot I've seen, good and bad. You have to take the good with the bad and vice versa, the bad with the good, so it goes hand in hand. I've had a chance. I've had a chance. I really have, and I'm thankful that I've had that opportunity to see some of the world, see some of the country.

In the military, I did get stationed overseas, and I spent two years in Germany. It's shocking to me that I just found out recently that all military that was at one time in Germany is no longer there. All the military posts that were there, 8:00they're gone. There used to be a big military presence in Nuremberg. I was stationed close to Nuremberg. There's nothing left of Nuremberg. I mean, there might be, maybe, a unit or two here and there, but there was a major post everywhere in Nuremberg. It's shocking to me. It really is, and to think that, though, when I was stationed in Germany, we still had the [Berlin] Wall up. A lot has changed since then. A lot has changed until now. I can understand it, and I can see it. It changed for the good, though. The Wall's no longer there; we're no longer having the Cold War. We've got all this stuff going on currently with those guys over in that part of the world, but, you know, we're alive. We're here. We've got to keep charging forward. That's all we can do. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynThat's true. You told me that you made the decision to attend 9:00Chilocco. Tell me about this.

HillWell, in eighth grade I decided I was going to go to the school. I was going to go to one of my dad's schools, and I was going to go to--Concho, Concho Indian School down in Concho, Oklahoma. I got accepted for the eighth grade. I turned around, and I chickened out. I had the acceptance papers; I was all set to go. That weekend I was supposed to go, I backed out. I got scared. I didn't want to go. I had friends there, but that didn't, it didn't sit well with me. Got my dad upset. My dad was like, "Wow, you already said you were." I told him, the next year I said, "I'll go to Chilocco. I'll go to Chilocco. I'll go there." 10:00One of the main reasons I went to Chilocco was because of sports. Being a freshman, I was going to be going to one of the biggest schools in the state of Oklahoma. At the time, Class 4A was the biggest class here, and the school I was going to was going to be a Class 4A school. At the time, there was still Class B here, so Chilocco was Class B.

I came down here, and I started school that week. That weekend, I played in a scrimmage for Chilocco, and out of that year I started nine games out of ten for Chilocco that year on football. I got experience; I got playing time. That was part of the decision. Part of it was the sports, but the other part that played a major part in that was because Dad had gone to school here. Dad was an alumni here. Dad graduated with the Class of '57. We had been up here a few times for 11:00reunions, so I figured, "Well, I might as well go check it out." I don't regret it. It's a decision. Like I said, there's a lot of good things, there's a lot of bad things, but overall, it made me who I am today. I can't change that. I don't want to change it. I mean, we all like to say sometimes that we'd like to go back and do things differently. Yeah, I agree with that. There's things I'd like to do differently, but I can't go back and change it. It's just the way it is, and here we are.

NykolaiszynDid your father talk much about his time at Chilocco?

HillHe used to talk about certain stuff that they did, certain things, where they hung out at, stuff that they did. There was stuff that we did that was totally different than what they did. Those all were some things we did share in common, being away from home, getting used to eating the food, getting used 12:00to--. If you didn't like the food, then you had to--. When I was here the last year, you didn't go hungry. There was always a seconds table that had food from yesterday's meals, and you didn't go hungry. Unless you had the money, then you could talk to one of the matrons, and if you had three people, the matrons would run you into Ark City to go to McDonald's. There was an interesting story on that. One time, I gathered up some people, and there was about six of us. We went into McDonald's. We asked if she wanted something. She said, "Yeah, I want an apple pie. Someone bring me an apple pie." Okay. We came out. Every one of us came out; every one of us had an apple pie for her. (Laughs)

You thought she would have been happy. She got mad at us. "I only want one apple 13:00pie!" She was happy; she took all of them. There was, like, six apple pies that she ended up with that evening. Thinking about it now, it was kind of comical and kind of insignificant, but I remember that. I remember her expression; I remember her getting mad. "What am I going to do with all these pies? I can't eat all these pies!" But we felt out of our heart. We gave it to her as a sign of us, you know. We didn't have to do anything, but we did. It was just the way things were here. We were one big family, and we still are. That's going to continue on as long as we're breathing. (Laughs) Simple enough. I always tell people, and I always tell my friends and stuff that we went to Chilocco and 14:00whether we like it or not, we have a responsibility on our shoulders to carry the Chilocco name forward. Whether we like it or not, that's the responsibility that we have.

I know that there are some classmates of ours that I went to school with and everything that could care less about Chilocco, that don't care about Chilocco. Whatever reasons they have, whatever they are, I respect them because I'm not going to sit here and tell someone that hated Chilocco, "You need to come back for your reunion." If they had a problem here and they have something that they didn't like while they were here, they're not coming back for that reason. We can't get rid of that reason, so we just have to accept that that's it. There are classmates like that right now, especially from the last class I was in. I can't say that for every class behind me, but for the class that I was here, the '79-'80 year, there's quite a few. I know someone that is kind of like, I want 15:00to say like an animosity towards some of the people that were here then. I know I felt it, and I know I seen it, was that it felt like they didn't do enough to keep the school open.

NykolaiszynWell, I was going to ask about that because you're in the last class.

HillThey didn't really try to do anything until a decision was done late in the spring semester. They sent a delegation up to DC, like, in February, and we had gotten word, I think, in December. Things should have started in December. Things should have started at the beginning of the year because there were rumors going around when we got to school that they might close it down. There 16:00was no groundwork; there was no anything here. I don't even think Chilocco had an alumni association then. If they did, it wasn't--yeah, they did. They did. It should have been included in part of trying to keep Chilocco open. I don't know if they were scared, they didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to do it, or what. Can't second guess it now because it's already happened. It's already there. I know that there's some people out there that don't like that they felt like there wasn't nothing in the--wasn't enough done. The person I blame for that really is Senator Henry Bellmon. Bellmon had a big, big part in closing Chilocco.

He came out with newspaper ads, articles, and he said that it cost an X amount 17:00of dollars for each student to go to Chilocco. "We have kids in private school that don't pay that much to go to a private school." He brought out some kind of figure that was, it was, like, nine or ten thousand dollars per student to be at Chilocco. Then he brought up numbers for other Indian schools. "We could educate that same student for this price versus this price." Now, how true that was, how true the numbers were, I don't know. Nobody knows. Somebody higher up knows, but they didn't tell us anything. They just left it as such, and we went from there. So, yeah, there could have been a little bit more done. There was stuff done that they did try--but I have to accept that that's just the way it is now. 18:00Chilocco could come back in another form, but it won't be the same Chilocco Indian School. It would be a shell of its former self. Put it that way.

There were all kinds of ideas banging about when they first closed Chilocco, a big Indian university, a big factory area, an industry in here that would provide jobs. I see a lot of it being the--it went to the Chilocco Coalition, which has, like, five or six tribes. Now, each one of them being independent, each one of them wanted a say as to what happened at Chilocco, so you have a little bit of a fight going off in these tribes that wanted to--. Again, I'm not 19:00from here, and I'm not in the area here. I'm just going from what I saw from when I went back to Oklahoma City because at the time, I was living in Oklahoma City. Eventually, Narconon got in here, and I don't know how it was. I never did try to come on campus. The one time I did make it here, I made it here in '91, but the campus was closed. All I could do was stand at the archway and get pictures. None of this was here. Where we're interviewing at was not here. None of this was here, so it's totally different to see this like this.

NykolaiszynWell, let's go back to your time as a student. How was football?

HillFootball was fun.

NykolaiszynWhat position did you play?

HillI played center and on the defensive line, nose guard, defensive tackle. For 20:00a couple of series there, I did play linebacker, but I didn't care for the linebacker. I didn't care for being a linebacker. I wanted to be on the line, in the trenches. I was a big guy, so that's where they put me at. We didn't win a game that year, but we had fun. The thing was, towards the end of the year, we started running low on numbers, so the last two games of the year, we were iron man football. We had eleven players out there. If anybody would have gotten hurt, anybody would have gotten kicked out or whatever, that would have been it. We finished that year in 1979-'80 with eleven players on the football team, eleven, just straight eleven of us, and it was tiring. It was tough. It was rough, but that was just the way we were. We made the best of it. Granted, we didn't win a game. We went out and had fun, plus we got to eat good. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynDo you remember your coach?

HillCoach [Allan] Colbert--.

NykolaiszynWhat was he like?

HillHe was all right. He was down to earth. He cared about us. Well, they all did. They all had their own way of showing us, and we all gave them respect because they respected us. We tried to do our best, but there were times we were outnumbered. There were times we were playing teams that had fifty players on their sideline, and we had fourteen. He did his best. He did his best with us, and I don't fault him. I still respect him. I don't know if Coach Colbert is still alive, but thank you. Thank you for showing the game of football. Thank you for showing me the game of football. We had fun, but we made the best of it. Those memories I won't trade for anything else. It was a blast. Only thing I 22:00would do if I could go back and change anything, I would have played a little bit more tougher. Hindsight's 20/20, you know, so what can I say? (Laughs)

NykolaiszynDid you have certain classes you really enjoyed, or maybe not so much?

HillYeah, there were some classes I didn't enjoy; there were some classes I really did. I enjoyed math, and I enjoyed science, the science classes that we had here. Chilocco was a different animal back then. It was a high school, plus, also, it was a technical school. That way, when you graduated after your four years here, you had not only a high school diploma, you also had a vocational certificate. There were certain ag area--I mean, ag was one of them, but there were certain vocations that you could get into. There was welding, auto body, homemaking, printing, agriculture, auto mechanics. Can't think of the other 23:00ones. There was about seven.

NykolaiszynWhat did you do?

HillI took auto mechanics. Auto mechanics was okay until we had to start working with hot motors. Dealing with a hot motor that is just screaming hot, you got to stick your hand down there and get something out or try to unscrew it, that's where I drew the line. I couldn't handle that, but I made it through. I managed to make it through auto mechanics. I did have one year of auto mechanics from here at Chilocco that I did get, but mechanics, auto mechanics, getting down and dirty in that stuff, that just wasn't for me. (Laughs) I did my best. First semester, I had it in the morning; second semester, I had it in the evenings, 24:00afternoon. It was fun. I learned stuff. I learned stuff that I can still use. I know how to check my air, see if my air, you know, on the AC unit. I don't know how to do all that other stuff with the AC unit, but I know what hose to put on.

I can go to AutoZone and buy one of those cans that has the hose on it and charge up my AC unit. (Laughs) I don't have to pay someone twenty bucks or forty bucks to do the AC recharge. That was one of the classes I didn't really like. I didn't care for auto mechanics. Plus, the teacher that we had, Mr. [James] Salmon, he was a retired Marine, so he was rough and abrasive. He was unafraid, and cuss words were flying out a mile a minute sometimes. (Laughs) If you didn't 25:00do something right, he'd let you know. I got to like him after a while, but it just took a while because he was used to being military. He was used to telling somebody to jump, and used to somebody telling him, "How high?" Here we are, these little--being smart-alecky, being whatever, just something to pester him. That's just how we were; that's the way it was. We were just kids, too.

NykolaiszynWas the atmosphere on campus, was it very regimented? Was there a schedule you guys had to stick to?

HillNot really. We weren't regimented. We weren't--they didn't wake us up like the military at five thirty or six in the morning and have to do this, do that, blah, blah, blah before you eat breakfast, no. They got us up; we took our time. 26:00The one thing that I didn't do here that much is I didn't eat breakfast. You could sleep a little bit more if you didn't, (Laughs) if you didn't wake right up. They used to come in, maybe six thirty, maybe seven. Breakfast would last until maybe seven thirty, seven forty-five. You had to come back, and you'd have a little detail, an area that you'd have to clean, sweep, or mop. Then you'd go back to class. Class would start, like, about eight fifteen, eight twenty. Then you would do your regular--if you had class in the morning, you did your classroom part, and after lunch, you did your vocational part. Or you did it the other way around: did your vocational part first, and then you did your classroom part in the afternoon. It just depended on how your class schedule was. I didn't like going to auto mechanics in the morning. I liked it better in the afternoons, so needless to say, I did better when auto mechanics was in the 27:00afternoon. (Laughs) It was fun. You made the best of it. It was different.

Like I said, it was a different situation. It was different than going to anywhere else, and I learned a lot here. I really did. I did a lot of maturing here. It was basically--wasn't the first time I was away from home, but it was one of the first few times I was away from home. I had to deal with homesickness. I was wanting Mom's cooking. I was wanting Mom to do my clothes. I was wanting to do all that stuff, but, see, I learned that. I learned that here at Chilocco. I learned how to take care of myself. I learned how to do my laundry. I learned how to take care of my hair. I had to. No one else was going to do it. I had to learn it myself. I had it rough that first semester because I 28:00didn't really know how to take care of my hair. At the end of that first semester, I ended up with a big olʽ rat's nest on the back of my hair that I could not--. No matter how hard I worked at it, I wasn't doing it right because I didn't know how. I went home by Christmas, got it taken care of. After that, I made sure that I cut my hair because I didn't want to be talked about, which I was. I didn't want to be treated any way, which I was, all this stuff, but it happened. I lived through it. I survived it, and here I am today.

Nykolaiszyn-- When you arrived on campus, did you know anybody, any other students?

HillThere was a couple students here that I did know at the time. Other than that, I didn't really know anybody else until, it must have been about maybe three weeks later. A couple more people I had gone to with before showed up on 29:00campus. After that, I made friends with some people. There were some people I didn't like. There were some people that didn't like me. I just made do. Granted, when I was here I was kind of--I don't know how to put it. I was kind of like everybody's comic relief. I was naïve. I was away from home for the first time. I had a mom and dad at home. Some of them didn't, and some of them didn't like that. Needless to say, I caught the brunt of some pretty cruel jokes. Got treated different, got treated kind of bad. Looking back at it now, it was bullying. I was being bullied, but I stood up to it. I did take it. I 30:00weathered it, I survived it, and here I am. I'm right here. I'm a work of art. What can I say? Keeping it real and nothing artificial. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynWould your parents come visit you at all?

HillThey would come take me out on the weekends, or sometimes after football games I would leave with them after the game. There were times I stayed here. One thing that I did have that I really think about now, I always had money. Some of these kids, they didn't have that. They didn't have money, but I had money. I had money that my mom and dad would send me, or money that they would give me when I left home. I can remember trips going home, and coming back on the bus or coming back on the train. See, back then there was no train service, so you would ride the train into Ark City. Me and the person I rode up with today, we were talking about the train, how one night the train was late and the 31:00train didn't show up until about eleven, almost twelve, in Oklahoma City. By the time we got here, the sun was coming up when we were getting taken to campus. We should have been here that night. Train normally left Oklahoma City about six, and we would end up in Ark City about ten thirty.

That night, that train came in at eleven. We got here, it must have been about six, six thirty, no time to sleep. They just took us straight, dropped us off at the dorms, and then we had to turn around and go to breakfast. The buses, the buses were, was different. The nearest bus out here, you had to go up to Winfield, [Kansas], and catch it and go some different way, or go to Ponca City and catch the bus. So they would take us to Ponca City to catch the bus, and they would do that on Friday evenings. Like I said, Chilocco was kind of 32:00structured different. There was postgrad students here taking the vocational courses, so sometimes those guys would take off and go to the city for the weekend. They would have a van take them to the bus depot in Ponca City. Those of us that had the okays from home, they would take us to the bus station, and we would get off, buy our ticket, and just wait around with them. It was good.

NykolaiszynOutside of travel, what could you do with money that somebody who didn't have it--what could you do that they couldn't do?

HillBuy stuff. Besides buy stuff, that was about it. Always had pop, chips. We'd go to the movies, movie house on the weekends, on Saturdays, and I was able to buy popcorn. They always bought us popcorn. They always bought us pop. Even 33:00though it was a small popcorn and it was a small pop, they still bought it. You can't go to the movie house without having pop and popcorn, so you've got to have that to complete the experience. At least you got that. I always had enough to buy me a big bucket of popcorn, and that was before they started refilling them for free. If you went back, you had to pay full price for another full one. (Laughs) There was a lot of stuff that I was able to do. I was able to do stuff those times. And one thing I learned was not to loan money to people because you never got it back.

NykolaiszynI bet.

HillThat was one thing. I learned that. Although there might be a few people that might help me out, might pay me back, whatever, but most of the time--. But it was only a couple bucks. If they quit bothering me for a couple bucks, that was fine because they didn't bother me anymore after that, you know. (Laughs) Being at Chilocco the last semester, being that they had the word that Chilocco 34:00was closing, they had excess funding. We had a student advisory committee that was formed, and we did activities on the weekends. They had an indoor fun fair in Oklahoma City; we sent the school down there. Wichita used to have a indoor soccer team. We sent them up there to watch them. We sent them to Wichita to the mall and a movie. We sent them to Tulsa, the mall and a movie. We sent them to--I think they went to a Tulsa Oilers ice hockey game, and let's see. We sent the senior class to Florida for a senior trip. We sent all the athletes, football, basketball, baseball, and softball, all the athletes got to go to 35:00Worlds of Fun in Kansas City, and we took the whole campus, staff and all, on four charter buses to Six Flags Over Texas.

NykolaiszynWow!

HillSo there was a lot of money there. There was a lot of money that was there that had to be spent. Otherwise, it was going to be turned back. And see, an offshoot of that, too, like I said, was the food. We had a lot of good food. Looking back on it, we got spoiled by the food. At least I did. There was a lot of stuff that--.

NykolaiszynWas everything made here on campus?

HillYes, yes.

NykolaiszynSo did you have a good relationship with the cooks?

HillYes.

NykolaiszynWhat do you remember about the cooks?

HillThey made everything good. (Laughter) You didn't go hungry. We had stuff here. Like I said, if you didn't like what was on the main line, there was a seconds table. Like, for instance, I don't like fish, so if we had fish, chances 36:00are there was beans and cornbread on the seconds table. I went and had the beans and cornbread, and vice versa. They might have liver and onions, and they might have spaghetti left over on the side from yesterday. I was covered. My bases were covered. There was a pop machine. We got pop with our meals. There was an ice cream machine. We'd get ice cream certain days, certain times, we used to get the Hostess treats: Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Cupcakes, the pies. You name it, we got it. Then the chips, they weren't shy. We got Lay's chips. Most of the time with the Lay's chips, it was out of the big, industrial bags. They had to grab a couple of handfuls and put them on your--. Like I said, there was food that we got here. There was a couple of items that I didn't get until I got in 37:00the Army. They made something here that was like a chicken pot pie, but it had biscuits on top. There was the meat with all, like a chicken pot pie, with celery, carrots, peas, mixed vegetables in it and a thick gravy.

They would give you a scoop with that biscuit on there and give you another scoop on top of the biscuit. Oh, that was awesome. I haven't had that since the Army. (Laughter) Got it here and didn't get it again until the Army, and I haven't had it since the Army. I don't see them on the menu anywhere. I haven't seen it anywhere else. Haven't seen it served anywhere else but here, here and the Army. There was another thing, too, we got: Swiss steak. It was like, I guess it was a tenderized round steak cooked in tomatoes with, like, a breading on it. It was awesome. We really ate good here. There was a lot of food that we 38:00ate. Steaks, the general campus, on campus, we ate steaks at least once a month. Football, we had them after every home game. Sequoyah Indian School came here to play us for football one time, and they didn't want to eat with us. I don't know if they were too good for us or what. I don't know what kind of attitude they had or what, but they don't eat with us. Okay, fine, let them go. We got their steaks. (Laughter) We had seconds and thirds that night, so we were loving it up. Boy, we enjoyed ourselves that night. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynThey didn't know what they were missing.

HillExactly. (Laughs) And, see, the away games, they took us to McDonald's. We got two Big Macs, a large fry, and a large pop. Back then, the large pop was what the medium pop is now, and the large fry back then is the medium fry now. 39:00Stuff goes hand in hand, stuff goes different, and I don't know. It's crazy. --

NykolaiszynWhat do you recall from graduation?

HillI didn't graduate from here. I was a baby freshman the last year Chilocco was open.

NykolaiszynOh, okay.

HillI was part of the last group that was here, but I didn't graduate.

NykolaiszynYou didn't graduate, okay. So you were here your freshman year?

HillYes. I was a baby freshman, so I caught a lot of flack for being a freshman. Being on the football field, you had to deal with what every freshman has to do in football. They've got to carry all the equipment in, all the dummies in, all the stuff that's out there. You got to carry that in. I dealt with that. I carried that in. It was just that stuff, little things.

NykolaiszynWhere'd you finish up high school?

HillWell, after Chilocco closed, I transferred to Riverside Indian School in Anadarko. I wanted to transfer to Intermountain Indian School in Brigham City, Utah, but my mom and dad, well, my mom put her foot down and said, "No. If you're going to go to Indian school, you're going to go in state." At the time, it was Fort Sill, Chilocco, Riverside, and Sequoyah. Well, when they did Chilocco, they shut down Fort Sill, so we had Sequoyah or Riverside to choose from. I got Riverside. I didn't want to go to Sequoyah, but I really wanted to go to Intermountain in Utah. Didn't happen. Went to Riverside, did all right. I left Riverside after two years because they dropped the ball. My senior year, I 41:00went to Crooked Oak High School in Oklahoma City and graduated Class of '83 from there. Then I got recruited to play at Haskell Indian College. I made it to the week school started, and I quit the team.

NykolaiszynWhy'd you quit?

HillMe and the coach didn't see eye to eye anymore, and football wasn't fun anymore. That is kind of a bonehead decision I kind of kick myself for. I was over the tough part. If I had just stuck in there and hung in there a little bit more, I would have made the season. I can't change it now. It's something that I kind of really kick myself over. I had an opportunity to play football at the college level, and I didn't do it. I wasn't All State. I wasn't all this or all 42:00that. I had to work hard, but I got All District my senior year. I had to work at that. Some of these guys got a natural gift, and it's just natural. I didn't have that. Football was about the only sport that I was decent in that I didn't have two left feet, two left hands. I played basketball here at Chilocco, but I had two left feet, two left hands when it came to basketball.

I am not a basketball player. Then baseball, Chilocco would've had a baseball team, but we didn't have enough players. We had ten players who were going to start the season; two players got kicked out of school. We were down to eight players. We tried to recruit. Nobody wanted to come out and play, so that canceled our season. I would've got a lot of playing time that year if baseball 43:00wouldn't have been nixed, if we would've had enough players to play baseball. Put it that way. Here's what's unique about Chilocco. Chilocco played in a baseball league in Kansas. Somebody had told me that a few years prior to that, that a kid from here at Chilocco made All State in Kansas in that league, but they weren't a Kansas school. Chilocco was here in Oklahoma. I thought, "Why would this have happened?" I don't know. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynIt's close enough, right?

HillYeah, yeah.

NykolaiszynJust a few miles.

HillYeah. Less than a mile, less than a mile--

Nykolaiszyn(Laughs) There we go.

Hill--within walking distance!

NykolaiszynDid you always plan on joining the military?

HillNo.

NykolaiszynHow did your entrance into the military come about?

HillI got passed over for a job. I was working in fast food, and one of the guys 44:00I had trained in the store less than six months before that got promoted up to a manager position. I was mad. I had more experience than him. I literally had more everything than him. I kind of feel like it had something to do with--and it really upset me. I tried to bring it up with a couple of the managers, and it went on deaf ears. So I said one day, "Well--." I didn't want anything to do with the Marines. I knew how they were and how they are. Nothing against them, animosity or anything like that, but that wasn't me. I thought about the Navy, and I thought about the Air Force. When it came down to it, it was between the 45:00Air Force and the Army, and I went with the Army. I went back to the same thing. My dad was in the Army, so I figured, "Why not? I could do it, too." I followed my dad's footsteps again. I followed his footsteps to Chilocco, and I followed his footsteps to the Army. I tried to follow his footsteps in life, as well. That was one of the major reasons why I joined the Army.

NykolaiszynDid you go to the local recruiting office?

HillYes.

NykolaiszynWhere was that at?

HillI was living in Omaha, Nebraska, then--

NykolaiszynOkay.

Hill--so I went and talked to the recruiter. I went down on a Monday morning. Tuesday, I did some testing. The following Tuesday, I went back for more testing, and that day, I signed in. I signed up. I was on delayed entry for 46:00thirty-three days. This was in October. I left for basic training in November, November, 1985. I went to Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. Alpha 383, we had a little saying that I can remember that we used to say. "Alpha, Alpha 383, rocking hard and rocking steady, on the move and always ready, hoo-ah." (Laughs) That was our saying that we had in our unit.

NykolaiszynWere you pretty in-shape going into boot camp?

HillMmm, no, I was not. I had a problem doing pushups. Everything else, I was okay on. They worked on me, and I made it through. I made it through basic. Otherwise, I would have been sent to--work on my upper body strength, but I didn't have to. I completed basic. Started in November. We got to come home for 47:00Christmas for ten days and go back and do the rest of our basic training. I did four weeks of basic, came home for ten days, and went back and did another four weeks, which is okay, I guess. It's kind of odd. You would think eight weeks straight, but, no, (Laughs) that's just the way the Army was. (Laughs) I got a buddy that's in the Marines, he said, "You got to go home during basic?" I said, "Yeah, we did." We did. I mean, I don't know. (Laughs) There was different things in the military that we got.

There's one thing that I remember in basic is that one day--there was Alpha, Bravo, Charlie Companies, and then there was Delta and Echo. Okay, one day I got sent on KP duty, and when I got into KP duty, there were other Indians there. 48:00The whole unit, the whole KP crew that day was Indian. There was six or seven of us on that KP crew that day, and all of us were Indian. There was about three of us from Oklahoma, like, South Dakota, another one from Arizona, another one from, like, maybe New Mexico or Utah. I can't remember. It felt good because all of us were skins; all of us were together. We sat back and asked, "Who wants to do pots and pans?" We all raised our hands to do pots and pans. Pots and pans is the one you don't want in the Army because you're scrubbing from the time you get in there until it gets dark out. You're scrubbing these pots and pans, making them clean. We didn't care. We were back there laughing, joking, terrorizing each other. It really felt good. It really felt good to all of us that day because we were all just--.

I don't know if the drill sergeants had something to do with that; I don't know 49:00if it was just stroke of luck. I don't know how you're going to get seven Indians to do KP at the same time, so there had to be some coordination there, at least, I think. It was fun. We made the best of it. Granted, you're in a bad situation. Well, you perceive it as bad, although it's a training situation. You miss the nuances of being at home or being around friends, being able to laugh and joke and terrorize around. We were able to do that. We got our work done, but we were able to laugh, joke, and terrorize each other. Again, that's something I wouldn't regret. I don't regret joining the Army. I don't regret making that decision to sign on that dotted line, to raise my right hand and say, "I do solemnly swear--." I'd do it again.

NykolaiszynHow long did you sign up for?

HillI signed up for three years. I signed up. At the time, I was married, and 50:00the so-called wife then didn't want to come to Germany. I extended for six months in order to get her over there to Germany, extended my enlistment. I got all the paperwork submitted, everything approved, everything taken care of. There was a few items that she needed to take care of on her end, and she didn't follow through. One thing led to another; we got divorced. She didn't want to come to Germany; she didn't want anything to do with Germany. She kept flip-flopping. "Yeah, I'll go, okay. No, I'm not going. No, I'm not going to go. Okay, I'll be there." "Okay, well, if you're going to go, you need to get this done; you need to get a passport photo; you need immunizations up to date; and you need to check in with the service points so they can get everything 51:00coordinated with you."

NykolaiszynWell, that had to be hard for you, too.

HillOh, it was. Then there was other extracurriculars on her part that came to light that I didn't want anything to do. I tried my best, but I moved on. I got orders to go back to the States, but I had to stay that extra six months in the military. I could have got it rescinded, but I wanted to spend my whole three-year enlistment in Germany. Being that I extended for six months, I was able to rotate back stateside. I served my last year in the Army stateside. And that is apples and oranges.

NykolaiszynWell, let's back up a second. After you completed boot camp--.

HillI then went to advanced training. I signed up to be a 76 Yankee [unit] 52:00supply [specialist]. I went to Fort Lee in Virginia for eight weeks. It was during there that I found out I was going to be sent to Germany. I was scared; I was shocked; I was kind of afraid.

NykolaiszynHad you ever been out of the country at that point?

HillI'd been to Mexico and Canada. That was about it, which isn't really out of the country, if you think about it. (Laughter) It was kind of a shock because they came in and announced, "Okay, if we called your name, you're going to Hawaii. Those of you we didn't call, you're going to Germany." Mine wasn't one of the ones they called, so I was going to Germany. We had to go get shots, had to get everything lined up, and we got our orders at the end of training. Everybody went home for two weeks, and then we got shipped over.

NykolaiszynSo where in Germany did you end up? You said you were close to Nuremberg.

HillYeah, I was stationed at one of the armpits of Germany everybody talks about. There's three places that are the armpits of Germany. One is Wildflecken, otherwise known as "wild chicken." The other is Grafenwöhr. The other is Hohenfels. I got stationed at Hohenfels. (Laughs) I got one of the, supposedly, one of the worst places you can get sent in the Army, besides the DMZ in Korea. (Laughs) I made the best of it.

NykolaiszynAnd you're working in supply?

HillYes.

NykolaiszynSo what was your job in Germany?

HillSupply was to make sure that everybody got inventory, make sure that if they were missing items that they got the missing items replaced, meaning I had to fill out forms to get them charged. They would get a little payroll deduction 54:00out of their check for the item they were missing. It might have been an ammo pouch; it might have been a sleeping bag; might be an entrenching tool. People didn't like me at that time, after they'd come out of the field, because I had to do all those inventory reports. I had to keep track of the linens, had to do linen exchange. There was a lot of stuff that had to go on behind the scenes, and it was worthwhile. It was a fun job. I had other chances to be in other areas, but I didn't choose it. There was one area that they wanted me for a six-year enlistment, and I was not about to be in the military for six years, not on initial enlistment. I wanted helicopters.

NykolaiszynReally?

HillI had high GT [General Technical] scores, high ASVAB [Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery] scores, and one of the things offered was helicopters. They were coming out with the Black Hawks, so I was a Black Hawk 55:00crew person, crew member, crew chief. I would have had the IT for fourteen months, thirteen months, and I would have had warrant officer candidate school so I would become a warrant officer. They wanted a six-year enlistment, and I just was not about to do six years then.

NykolaiszynSo supply it was.

HillSo supply it was. It was that or choose infantry or indirect fire crew member, and those were two-year enlistments. That's what I was trying to go out for was the two-year enlistment. I said, "What about the three or four years?" "Three-year supply." "I'll take it." -- It was the best job I could've taken. I had the best room in the barracks. I could go down to property supply and sign 56:00out stuff. I had a couch in my room. I had wall-to-wall carpeting in my room. Not everybody had that. Not everybody had that luxury. I had furniture in my room. They might have just one nightstand and one lamp. Oh, I had, like, two or three nightstands and three or four lamps.

NykolaiszynIt was good to be in supply. (Laughs)

HillYes, yes. Membership had its privileges. (Laughter)

NykolaiszynWell, outside of work, did you have time for fun?

HillYes, after you get through the moping period and the crying-yourself-to-sleep period, you get tired of wallowing in your own, and you get out. You have to get out. You have to go out and observe. You have to go out and see things, and I did that. I did that when I was in Germany. Yeah, I went through the moping. I went through the crying myself to sleep at night. "Why did I join? Why did I join? Why am I here?" It sounds funny, and it's comical now, 57:00but at the time, it was real heavy, real heavy. Put it that way.

NykolaiszynWere there other Indians in your company?

HillIn my unit, no, but there was one thing that I was told about my unit. I was in a Hawk missile battery in Germany. We were about forty-five Ks from the Czechoslovakian border. They provided air defense support for the cav[alry] units that were along the line against Czechoslovakia and other stuff that might have came in. Then, it was Cold War time, so we had to deal with the threat from communists and the Warsaw Pact units. It was different stuff that went on. I remember a couple of alerts that happened and stuff, but you just did your job. You did your job. You did what you were told to do, what you were trained to do, and everybody did it. When I was in Germany, we were close. We were very close. 58:00We had each other's back. If something would have happened, if something would have went down, like they say in the Army, if the balloon goes up, if the balloon had gone up, I would love to have done it with those guys. We knew each other. We had each other's back. We were close-knit. When I got rotated to stateside and whatever, there was none of that.

NykolaiszynJust a different--.

HillThe unit was ate up. I mean, there was no cohesion. Nobody had each other's back. They were willing to tell off on each other. They were willing to throw each other under the bus for whatever reasons. There was no unit cohesion. There was no togetherness, no "I got your back; you got my back." There was none of that. To be in a unit like that, it's rough. I had to put up with that the last 59:00year I was in the Army.

NykolaiszynWell, before you came back stateside, the Wall was still up in Germany.

HillYes.

NykolaiszynDid you feel that tension?

HillOh, yeah, you could feel it. There were certain towns that you couldn't go into in Germany. They used to tell us there were certain towns to stay out of. Now, one of them was outside of Hohenfels. I guess back during World War II, Patton's armor units shelled that town pretty bad, and since that time, they've had a lot of animosity and hatred towards American service members. Being that it was close to post, you would think that the service members would be able to go there and get places to live and stay out there because all of that hatred towards the American troops. There were certain areas close up by the--. Being 60:00that we were close to Czechoslovakia, there was a definite no-passing zone that we couldn't go into. There was another area that was the caution area zone that you had to be careful that you didn't go into. You could get in trouble, but you weren't going to get in trouble like you were if you went to the other one. You were basically warned if you got into the other zones to back out, to go back the other way.

Being in Germany, there were certain things that you--. Most of it was just getting used to being in Germany. After you first get into Germany, you got to get used to the language, you got to get used to the money, you got to get used to the time difference. Being in Germany, you're in the land of beer, so you got 61:00to get used to the beer. Those are the four major things that I say you have to get used to when you're over there. The money part, the only way you're going to get used to that is to go out and spend money on the economy. Back when I was in Germany then, it was the [Deutsche] mark. You could get two marks to the dollar, and that was a pretty good rate. When I left Germany, it was a mark thirty to a dollar. You had buying power when I first got there that you didn't have when I left. Now they don't have the mark. They're all on the euro, so I don't know what the exchange rate, what it buys, what it doesn't buy. You had to get out and experience it on your own.

Like I said, you could only sit in the barracks and mope in your own stuff for a 62:00while. You have to get out, and you have to mix things up. You have to be active. You have to be able to do stuff. One thing that kind of hindered me--they had activities scheduled. When I was in Germany, they were just starting those NFL football games in London. Chicago Bears were getting ready to play that one year, and I was trying to go. I went and put a deposit down on it. I was going to pay up. I was going to go. I was all ready, but they had duty list come out. Duty roster came out. There was my name on the duty roster on the day we were supposed to be in London. I tried to find someone to trade with me. No, no, no. Nobody would trade; they were already going to London. I said, "Okay." I had to go get my deposit back. Them guys went, and I didn't get to go. Come to find out later on, it became a regular occurrence. Whenever there was 63:00anything going on, I always got stuck on the guard roster. I never made Oktoberfest because when Oktoberfest was going on, I was--on duty roster.

NykolaiszynSo why do you think that was?

HillColor of my skin, plain and simple. Being Indian, you got a stigma that we're drunken savage, that we're drunks. That was what I had to deal with, that I was a drunk, that I was a drunken savage. "Oh, we can't have a drunken savage going on these trips and embarrassing us, blah, blah, blah." So what happened? Every time they went somewhere, went to London, they went to Paris, they went to Spain, they went somewhere else, I was on duty roster for every one of those 64:00trips. I didn't like it, but being I was just a little PFC [private first class], I couldn't do anything. Oh, they tell you you got a choice. You could do this or that, but I ain't getting in trouble for that. That's what I got to take to do it? Fine, I'm not doing. I'm not getting in trouble. You just have to grin and bear it. It came with the turf. I was the one that signed up, and I had to raise my hand. That's just the way it went. There are places I'd like to go see when I go back to Germany.

I always say, "One of these years I'm going to go back." Maybe I will, maybe I won't, but I'd like to go back for Oktoberfest. I'd like to go see where the 65:00Wall was at. I'd like to go hang around Munich for a bit. I'd like to go out and see different parts, other parts of Germany, the northern part because where I was at was in Bavaria, the southern part of Germany. There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see. I'd like to go to the places that I wasn't allowed to go with my unit like Spain, Paris, London. I've been to London but only because my plane landed there twice, and I only got to see the terminals. I can say I was in London, London gateway. (Laughs) Different things that, can't really change it. I don't really have any regrets. I don't really have anything that--. I just wish that I would have been given a little bit of leeway to take these trips. 66:00That's just the way it was, again. That's just the way it was.

NykolaiszynHow long were you in Germany?

HillI spent two years, two years in Germany. The first part, when I was moping around, it seemed like it went by forever, took forever. The last year, once I learned enough, learned enough of the language to go to a restaurant and know what I was ordering, I could rest assured and know that I could order something and have a hamburger and fries come out and not have some lady carrying out a big pig on a tray with an apple in its mouth. (Laughter) I knew enough of the language. Steaks, I love steaks, and the beef in Germany is totally different than the beef here. I got to know a place in the town I was on post and got to 67:00know the owner pretty good. I would go in there when I'd get off, got paid and stuff, talk to the owner and say, "Hey, hook me up with your biggest steak." "Yeah, yeah, yeah," and he'd come out. I took some friends over one time, and that's where I noticed he didn't give me the biggest steak. We all three ordered steak. "Hook me up with your biggest steak." "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah!" He brought out the steaks. I got a steak about that big. They got little steaks like that, and they were mad. They were mad that they paid the same price as me and they got--. (Laughs) That was just the way it was because I went in here. I knew the guy. I mean, I didn't know him, but I'd been in there enough.

NykolaiszynDeveloped a relationship.

HillYeah. Getting out made it so much easier. Getting out, going to do stuff, it 68:00just made it go by faster. Being stuck in your barrack, when you're sitting there, moping around, and you're sitting there, you're in an environment where it's just going to fester, fester, and fester until you--. I don't know.

NykolaiszynDrives you crazy.

HillYeah, until you pop. Put it that way. Getting out that last year, when I got my orders to come back to the States, I didn't want to leave. I didn't want to leave Germany. I wanted to stay there, and that's why I've always said I want to go back to Germany. I want to go back and see the stuff I didn't get to see. With a little help, with a little luck, and some hard work, I'll be able to make it back. It's not going to be tomorrow, and it's not going to be next week. It's not going to be next month, but maybe next year or maybe the year after, maybe 69:00five years, but I will make it back over. I get to see the stuff that I didn't get to see.

NykolaiszynThat's a good goal.

HillI also want to learn the language this time. I learned enough just to get by, learned enough to read the train schedules, the bus schedules. One good thing about the train schedules, that train's going to leave at 10:03 if it's on schedule. It says 10:03. 10:03, it's gone. There's no Indian time. (Laughter) There's no other time on there. It says 10:03, you be there at 10:02 to get on that train. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynWell, when you got your orders to come back stateside, where did you go?

HillI got station orders for Fort Detrick, Maryland. Fort Detrick, Maryland is all right. Here's DC; here's Baltimore; (imagine it a triangle) and here's 70:00Frederick, Maryland. That's where Fort Detrick's at. Fort Detrick is--one is forty-eight miles, and one is forty-five miles, so you might as well say they're the same distance--forty-eight from DC, forty-five from Baltimore, equidistance. When I was stationed at Fort Detrick, I didn't go to DC that much. There were times I did go there. I was there just to go party, but it was expensive. The cost of living around DC and around Fort Detrick and Frederick, Maryland, was expensive. You did what you could. You gave it your best, but--.

NykolaiszynDid you do the same type of work?

HillYeah, except there they changed my MOS [military occupational specialty] there. I ended up becoming a 76 Charlie, which is a parts specialist, which is somebody that, say the motor pool, they have a person that does that. That's a 76 Charlie that orders the axels, the bolts, the wrenches, the tires. They take care of that, they provide a status on that, and they keep track of everything that comes in, everything that needs to be ordered. That's what I had to learn when I got to Fort Detrick. It wasn't too bad. I learned it and had it down. I got my orders to get out, and I didn't want to get out, again. I wanted to stick 72:00it out, but then I thought, "I'm ready to go. I'm ready to get out. I'm done. I did my time." I didn't use my leave time, so I was able to what they call terminal leave. My ETS [expiration of term of service] date was May 9; I got to leave May 1. I was happy. I was really happy.

NykolaiszynSo you left the service in '89.

HillYes, and I turned around, and I met someone from Wyoming. I went to Wyoming and lived in Wyoming. I got accepted into Haskell again. I went back to Haskell, fall of '89, and that was a fiasco. When you're on active duty, they tell you all this stuff about your benefits. Well, put it this way. They don't tell you 73:00about all your benefits, so when I got out and got ready to go to Haskell, I had to go do legwork on all this stuff. If they would have told me when I was in there, I could have taken it before I got out at Fort Detrick. They didn't tell me that. I could have had funding at Haskell when I first got there. I didn't have that. I had to scratch and claw when I first got to Haskell, and I was doing good. Here's where I messed up, folks. I got all my money at one time, and the party animal in me said, "Let's go party!" There went my grades. There went everything. Right after Thanksgiving, I withdrew. I only had two more weeks on 74:00campus to make it through the semester, but I had gotten dropped from classes. In order to stay on campus, you had to carry twelve hours. The hours I got dropped, dropped me to nine hours, so I withdrew. Came on home; made it home. Went to Wyoming and made it home. Put it that way. I had joined the Kansas Guard by then. Kansas Guard I went back to being a 76 Yankee, but in the meantime I transferred up to the Wyoming Guard. When I got to the Wyoming Guard, they changed my MOS to [16 Bang Bang, 16 Bravo].

NykolaiszynWhat's that?

HillI became a 155 [mm] Howitzer crew member.

NykolaiszynThat's a little different!

HillYes. Very different.

NykolaiszynThat's a lot different than supply. (Laughs)

HillYes. We had rounds that were about that big, about yea around. A bottle of water was about the size of fuse that you have to put on top of it. Certain fuses, you could set them to do air bursts or so much off the ground. It was totally different. It was totally, totally different.

NykolaiszynDid you enjoy it?

HillYes, yes, but it's dangerous. It's very dangerous.

NykolaiszynOh, I bet it is.

HillAll that equipment, all that stuff, the recoil when you're doing a fire, that gun rocks when you're in there. See, the ones that we were in were the 109s that were self-propelled. When that thing would fire, that thing would rock. Here's one thing that they don't tell you about. If you're behind a 155 Howitzer 76:00and that thing fires, you can see the round come out, but you got to be behind it. You got to look above the barrel. As soon as that round fires, you'll see that--. That was the round.

NykolaiszynWere you ever activated as part of the Guard?

HillNo.

NykolaiszynNo.

HillI got out right before the Storm started.

NykolaiszynHow long were you in?

HillI was in two and a half years, so I was in until '91.

NykolaiszynSo right before Desert Storm.

HillYeah, right before the Storm started, I got out, maybe a month, two months before the Storm started. I think I got out in March, and the Storm started in May, if I remember right. I might be off by a month, but it was in that--. I got 77:00out right before that, and that was the end of the military. They sent me a couple of deals here and there for muster, but I was out of state. They told me, "Don't worry about it. Don't worry about making muster." I said, "Okay." Military was fun; military was all right. Active duty was better. Active duty was more structured. Active duty had more benefits, and active duty also had (oh, how should I say it) more professionalism, whereas the National Guard, these guys are part-time guys. These guys have never seen a day on active duty. The term "weekend warrior" comes into play, and that is what a lot of it is. You 78:00would think being in the prior service, in the National Guard setting, would be welcome, but that's not always the case. I experienced it, especially in Wyoming. Again, I don't know. I suspect that it might have had to do with my--. I made do. I got a honorable discharge, so I'm happy with that. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynDid you see other people discriminated against, as well?

HillYes, people of color. Mostly the African American brothers I saw being treated like dogs sometimes, worse than me, worse. You ever seen Full Metal Jacket?

NykolaiszynNo, I have not.

HillAll right. You ever see it, you find out who Private Pyle is, you see stuff like that. There are people in the service sometimes that can't do the physical testing, the physical part, the pushups, the sit-ups, the weight. The weight becomes an issue. I saw them being treated like crap, and--I got treated like crap because I was on that same program. We used to call it the fat boy program, and it's just another way for them to give you flack. Supposedly it's designed to help you do this and lose your weight and get you back on the deal. There's 80:00no compassion; there's no understanding; no room for any variance. Granted, this is the military. Yeah, I signed on the dotted line to raise my right hand, but there's got to be a little bit of variance. If I can do nineteen pushups instead of twenty, give me a little bit of variance.

[Doc] told me I was the baby in the dishwater because I could only do nineteen, not twenty. You know, that's just the way it is. The mentality in the military is, I almost want to say hypocritical, double standards mostly. That's okay for one set to do it, but these guys try to to do it? No. I seen people get 81:00favoritism. Anything that happens in the civilian world happens in the military, as well, so it's there. It's part of life. Some of it is just, it's like it's part of the service, and it doesn't need to be. Like me, pulling duty roster every time there was a trip, give me the benefit of the doubt. Let me go once. If I jack it up that one time, then, yeah, ground me. Take my privileges away. Bend my dog tag, whatever, but don't label me and keep me out of every single trip that goes on. I wanted to go to London.

I wanted to go to Spain. I wanted to go to Paris. Because someone had a label of 82:00me and had labeled me, I didn't get to partake in any of that. I got a honorable discharge, and I'm happy with that. I made it through. All I can say is, if anyone's going out there, thinking about the service, there used to be an old Army saying: "Be all that you can be." That's all you can do. That's what I would say to anyone saying, "I'm ready to go in the service." That old Army slogan, "Be all that you can be." Give it your all. I gave it my all some of the time but not all the time, and I have no regrets. Might be certain things here and there I would like to do over again, but I can't do that. I can't base my whole life on going back and redoing everything.

NykolaiszynWell, let's talk about the now. You know, we're sitting here at the 83:00Chilocco reunion. Why is it important to come back?

HillBecause we're the last; there's no new members coming in. We are the last of (I hate to say it) a dying breed. Our membership numbers are going down every year. Last year, we lost forty-something. I don't know what the number is this year, between last year and this year, but I know it's up there. It's going to continue, and it's going to continue to where there's not going to be that many left. Right now, it's sad to see that there's not much staff left. There's very few staff that are still alive, that was here when I went to Chilocco. That's 84:00sad. That's sad because I can remember a lot of them being nice. Mrs. [Opal] Cloud was the one I was telling you about the apple pies. Yeah, she got mad, but she was all right. She was nice. Yes, she was rough and abrasive, but deep down she cared. I think that's what mattered to everybody. Everybody liked her, everybody, I can't say tolerated her, because we accepted her. She was part of us, too. Otherwise we wouldn't have got her six apple pies. (Laughter)

NykolaiszynThat tells you how much you guys love her. (Laughs)

HillYeah. There's just different--I don't know. I like to include everything about Chilocco. It helped me grow up. It helped me to see things different. It helped me to be independent. It helped me to see things that, if something was 85:00to have happened to my mom or dad at that time, I would never make it. Granted, I had my mom and dad until, my dad until 2000, my mom until just last year. I was still able to do that. I was still able to take care of myself. I just cherish Chilocco a lot because, again, I did a lot of growing up. Good and bad, good and bad experiences, I had to learn somehow. I would rather have learned it here than to be on the streets and have to learn it, or to have been at Haskell and have to learn it that way. I grew up here at Chilocco. Chilocco's my home away from home. I would go as far as to say it's my second home, and I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Chilocco's a part of me; I'm a part 86:00of Chilocco. My dad, the same way. He is a part of Chilocco; Chilocco is a part of him. I've just kept on the family tradition.

NykolaiszynI don't know if you've said your father's name, but tell me your father's name.

HillMy dad's name was Art Hill Sr. He was the Class of '57. Those of you that were in his class, you know him. You know my dad. All I can say is I'm Art Hill Jr. Can't have a "party" without "art" in the middle. (Laughter) I wish that's something I thought my dad wanted to say when he was here, but no, I got it. (Laughs)

NykolaiszynWell, Art, what have we missed? What else would you like to tell us before we turn it off today?

HillOh, just thankful that this is going on and that we get to carry it forward. 87:00Like I said before, this is a responsibility that we all have, whether we went to school here for one day, one week, two weeks. We all went to school here. We all have a (how should I say it) vested interest in it because after so long there's not going to be any of us left. Chilocco's just going to be a memory. It might just be a memory in my son's mind. It might be a memory in somebody's grandson or granddaughter's, but we have to carry that forward, whether we like it or not. Whether we choose to embrace it or not, it has to be carried forward. Again, there's not very many. I was a baby freshman. I've seen a lot of these, they're elders. They're the older classmates. They're what Chilocco was. My dad 88:00used to tell me about Chilocco. Chilocco was self-sustaining. They had their own cows. They butchered their own cows. They milked their own cows. They made their own dairy products. The homemaking classes made uniforms, made whatever they needed. There was a lot of stuff that was here at Chilocco that was self-sustaining. Through the years, it went by the wayside. We were the ones that were here to experience that. Those of us that were here still have stories to tell, and those are stories that need to be told, one way or another.

NykolaiszynWell, I am almost positive that your family is proud of you and the legacy you've continued.

HillOh, yes, I'd like to think that, too. Dad, Mom, I'm doing my best, and I'm 89:00trying my best. All I can say, it's just me. Chilocco, I love you, and again, you're a part of me, and I'm a part of you. I won't change that for anything. I have no regrets, coming to school here, no regrets, making that decision to come to school here. The only regret that I have is that I didn't get to graduate from here, that I didn't get to continue on. There wasn't a sophomore year here. There wasn't a junior year here. There wasn't a senior year here. I had that freshman year here, and I made the best of it. I'll always remember Chilocco in that way, in that light, the laughs, the jokes that we shared, terrorizing each 90:00other, the food. The food was the best part, I think, about it, because we really did eat good. When I think about that, people might think, "Oh, it's just whatever, inconsequential," but it was a part of Chilocco. It was still a part of Chilocco. We had a part of the last football team, part of the last basketball team. I embrace it. I'd just like to see it continue forward. I have a Chilocco football jersey I'm going to donate. I got to find it. I tried to look for it before I came up, and I could not find it. When I do find it, the memorabilia room will have one of the last football jerseys from here at Chilocco, mark my word. That is a work of art. (Laughter)

NykolaiszynWell, Art, thank you for taking some time out in this alumni weekend and talking with us and sharing some of your memories about Chilocco and also your military service. We thank you.

HillYes, thank you. Thank you.

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