Little ThunderMy name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. I'm with the Oklahoma
Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University, and I'm interviewing George England on behalf of the Chilocco Alumni Association. George, you're a Cherokee tribal member, a Chilocco alum, Class of 1953--EnglandYes, ma'am.
Little Thunder--and member of the Chilocco Board of Directors where you've held
several offices, as well as being the current president of the Southwest chapter.EnglandYes, ma'am.
Little ThunderYou're also a military veteran. We'll be talking about some of
your Chilocco memories today as well as your military service. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.EnglandThank you.
Little ThunderWhere were you born, and where did you grow up?
EnglandI was born in Picher, Oklahoma, the backdoor of Oklahoma, and we were
just in northeast Oklahoma, oh, for several years. My parents worked in the printing industry, and they were in Cardin, Oklahoma; Pryor, Oklahoma. While 1:00there, I attended elementary school at both of those places.Little ThunderWhat did your--you explained what your mother and father did for a
living. Did you have any brothers or sisters, and where were you in the lineup?EnglandMy father, at one time when I was real young, he was a miner and did
different things, a cowboy working for the 101 Ranch in Oklahoma, working as a cowboy in Wyoming. He just had multiple jobs, but he ended up probably around 1943 working as a printer at Picher, Oklahoma, and then Pryor, Oklahoma. Then he got a job at Chilocco Indian School as an assistant instructor of printing. All 2:00during this time, my mother, she was a homemaker or started working in clerical work, just to start off with. Later on, they both went into printing as an instructor at Chilocco. My mother also worked at the administration building for Superintendent L. E. Correll and also worked for Charles Laughlin, who was the CPA for Chilocco. One of her duties at that time was to take care of all the veterans who was coming back from World War II in the postgraduate program, and all this time, I was there with them.Little ThunderDo you have any brothers or sisters?
EnglandI have one brother, Leon, that is deceased. He died. He was three years
younger than myself. I was born 1935; he was born 1938. He had a little medical 3:00problem, and he passed away in 1999, I think it was. I had one sister that died shortly after birth. My brother's name was Leon. My sister's name was Virgie May.Little ThunderWhat was your exposure to Cherokee language and culture growing up?
EnglandGrowing up, I can still remember. My father and four of his brothers and
two sisters and my grandparents in Grove, Oklahoma, I can still see them sitting around a big pot bellied stove in the living room, all talking Cherokee. Then every once in a while they would all giggle, look and point at me, and say 4:00"u-s-di a-yo-wa-ne-ga a-tsu-tsa" which was "little white boy." (Laughter) They all spoke Cherokee.Little ThunderWhere did you go to school prior to coming to Chilocco?
EnglandI can remember going to a grade school, probably from grade one, at a
little bitty village between Commerce, Oklahoma, and Picher, Oklahoma, called Whitebird. I remember the grade school there. We walked to the school and back. Next, my father took a job at Pryor, Oklahoma, as a printer. Then I was in the elementary school at Pryor. Then in 1944, my father took a job with Chilocco Indian School, and then I entered their elementary school at Chilocco, probably 5:00in the third or fourth grade, about 1944 or ʼ45.Little ThunderSo what was it like being, you know, basically being raised on the
campus grounds here at Chilocco?EnglandWell, it was kind of fun, really, because I got to see all of the
Chilocco students back in the '40s, and most other students. Unless they were graduates in the late mid- to late '40s, they knew each other, but the Chilocco students of my era and later did not get the chance to meet and see any of them. There were some fantastic athletes. It was a little different there, I mean, going to school, and that was our home. When we grew up, of course, we were at the school, and that's different than growing up in a suburb city now where 6:00there's cars and contacts and everything because that's all we had, was Chilocco. We would go play tennis on the tennis courts or go down to the gym and shoot baskets. But it was a good, wholesome life.Little ThunderAnd watched the students also play basketball or baseball, or....
EnglandAnd watched the students. Probably, the thing I remember most is the
Chilocco boxing teams, and they were fantastic, some of the best boxers in the state. They always had some knock-down drag-outs with Fort Sill Indian School, with Tulsa Boxing Club, the Oklahoma City Boxing Club, and the state Golden Gloves, and the national tournaments. There was always Chilocco boxers that were very famous. I still remember. I still remember seeing that gym setup in the boys' gymnasium.Little ThunderRight, right. So as you were coming up through Chilocco, yourself,
7:00getting a little bit older into middle school and high school, you were still living on campus. You were living in your home rather than in one of the dormitories.EnglandWell, we started off--I can remember when we first got there in 1944. All
we had was an apartment, and it was real crowded. It was really one bedroom, one makeshift bedroom, you might say, and myself and my brother was in there. Plus, at that time one of my cousins come to live with us because my father's brother and his sister-in-law had passed away, so one of their kids come to live with us. They didn't adopt him, but he was there. His name was Sequoyah, and he was three months older than I was. We started off in our apartment, we moved to 8:00another apartment, and then probably sometime around 1948 or ʼ47, somewhere in there, we moved into a house at Chilocco on the west side of the campus. So we were in that house.Little ThunderWhat was one of the teachers or classes that stood out for you at Chilocco?
EnglandWell, probably the one that stood out was Vivian Hayman, who was the
consumer education teacher. I can still remember her saying things like, "Whenever you buy a shirt, make sure it's got seven buttons on it. If it doesn't have seven buttons down the front, it's not a good shirt." And on ties, there was always some threading on the back of the ties that we were supposed to look to see if the threading was there. Plus, she monitored and proofread all of the--. She was also the journalism teacher, and so she was in charge of the 9:00school annual, the school newspaper. That was fun in her class, the journalism classes and the consumer education. That was probably my favorite.Little ThunderDid you work on The [Indian School] Journal, then?
EnglandI worked on The Journal as a printing student and also as an editorial section.
Little ThunderNeat. Any other areas that you were particularly interested in, in
terms of subjects or study?EnglandWell, I like phys ed, obviously.
Little ThunderDid you play some sports?
EnglandI played basketball there all four years, and finally my senior year I
started, made All Conference team. Played baseball. Went out for football, but I was pretty little then. I was light. I remember one time when I was on the freshman football team, I tackled one of the varsity halfbacks in a practice. 10:00The coach got real upset, James Choate, saying that, "Such and such, you let that ninety-five-pound-wringing-wet boy tackle you!" It was fun, athletics. I enjoyed athletics. I also liked math. I liked mathematics and algebra, and that was probably my two most favorite subjects. Just being in the whole education system there was fun and exciting.Little ThunderWhat happened after you graduated from Chilocco?
EnglandAfter I graduated from Chilocco, I worked that summer to get some money.
I had a basketball scholarship to Graceland College in Lamoni, Iowa, and I went there for the next year and played basketball and run track in Iowa. Then during 11:00the summers I would work in print shops around Arkansas City, Ponca City, Tonkawa, Wichita, because at that time I was a very accomplished linotype operator. It was easy for me to get a good summer job.Little ThunderAfter you graduated, did you graduate from Graceland or did you--
EnglandNo, I went there one year, (my cousin Sequoyah went with me) but we
decided not to go back the next year. We wanted to go to school a little closer to home, and so we both went to Arkansas City Junior College that next year.Little ThunderAnd what was your focus there?
EnglandMy focus there was really just trying to get through school. (Laughter)
At that time, we could not use calculators in the classes for, like, chemistry 12:00and higher math. All the kids were using slide rules, but we never learned how to use a slide rule in Chilocco. That just wasn't in our curriculum. We were kind of behind in math because we was having to do our math by long hand. We both dropped out after the first semester of our second year of college. My cousin Sequoyah joined the Navy. I went to work. I was just ready to go to work at that time, and later on that summer in July of 1955, I think it was, I joined the service because I was ready to go in the Army.Little ThunderAnd what motivated you to join?
EnglandWell, it just seems like that most of the Indian boys and the people we
13:00hung around with, they were all patriotically inclined. I mean, it just seems like once us guys graduated from Chilocco, okay, we either migrated to Oklahoma City or Tulsa because that's our first exposure to a large city and growing up and having fun. Or if you didn't do that, you joined the service. Most of the guys that I knew, some of them on the board here at Chilocco, you joined either the paratroopers, or you joined the Marines. That seemed to be the thing to do.Little ThunderAnd you joined the paratroopers.
EnglandYes, ma'am, I did. I was a volunteer for the paratroopers.
Little ThunderWhat was the response from your folks and your community when you enlisted?
EnglandThey was happy for me. They knew I was going to do it, and they really
14:00never interfered that much. They just was wanting to know was I happy in doing that. I can still remember when I graduated from the first eight weeks of basic training in Fort Carson, Colorado, Colorado Springs. When we were getting out of that first eight weeks and graduating from basic, so to speak, I didn't know how I was going to get home on leave before my next assignment. Then all of a sudden our drill sergeant says, "England, the old man wants to see you." Normally, you would think "the old man" was the company commander of your training unit and you was going to be in trouble, but it turns out the old man that I saw was my dad. (Laughter)Little ThunderHe'd shown up.
EnglandHe come all the way from Oklahoma to pick me up and drive me home. They
15:00were happy, I think, for me. Later on, some of my other stations like in Kentucky, they would show up to take pictures of the signs and stuff like that, so it was fun.Little ThunderOh, how neat, to have that support. What about your Chilocco
background do you think helped you with boot camp?EnglandDiscipline, because at Chilocco it's not like the kids in school now
where after school's out, they got their cars, they can go do different things. We didn't have cars or anything at school. I mean, you either had, like, maybe forty-five minutes to an hour of social time on the middle of the campus. Then you went to the dormitories before your supper, or you went to practice if you was in athletics, or the girls in cheerleading practice. It was really a pretty 16:00structured life at Chilocco, and dating was different. I mean, for the Saturday night dance or the Saturday night movies, you could all march or file down to the girls' dormitories and pick up your girl, and all walk to the dance or to the movies. It was pretty disciplined most of the time, and that was a help in the service because I never got in trouble or anything.Little ThunderWere there some drawbacks about coming from that environment into
boot camp?EnglandWell, it was a process where you had to get used to it, you know, like
having to shine your boots every day and go on KP in the mess hall all day long where you are forced to do something that wasn't nice, but it was all necessary 17:00as a part of your military life. It didn't take long to get used to it because we were still proud to be in the service.Little ThunderWere there any other Native soldiers in boot camp with you?
EnglandWell, I saw at one time one of the Waldon boys, (there was a lot of
Waldons that went to Chilocco) and this was Don Waldon. He shows up one time and enters in my barracks room, and he says, "Where's England at?" I look up there, and it's Don Waldon. Now, he was a couple of years younger than I was, but I saw him during my jump school training at Fort Bragg. Went down to the PX one night to buy some toothpaste and just hang out there to kill time, and lo and behold, I saw four Chilocco students that I knew: Leroy Sakiestewa, David Secondine, Don 18:00Beaver, and one of the Burris [brothers]. They were all sitting at a table. They were getting real close to getting discharged, but I hadn't even been to jump school yet. I didn't have my parachute badge wings on yet, and, boy, did they let me have it because they all were jumpers and I wasn't. I had to buy them beer all that night until I finally left and went back to my barracks, but I did see some other Chilocco students throughout my military life.Little Thunder--you mentioned there's this attraction to jump school, and you
need to sort of not have a fear of heights, for one thing, I would think. What was your experience doing your first jump?EnglandMy first jump, I mean, it was all a blur. None of us knew what to expect,
19:00and we had fear of heights. We had fear of having a parachute malfunction. It was always there in the back of your mind. We were jumping out of C-119s, and there was two lines, or sticks as we called them, twenty-two people on each side. About every second, you would funnel down to the exit doors at the back of the plane, and when you got there, you didn't have time to think about anything. All of a sudden, you were in the door and boom! You were gone. You were so thankful. After four seconds, you would look up, and hopefully your parachute was opening up. That was a relief when you looked up and after four seconds your 20:00parachute was opened and you had the nice, beautiful, quiet, lovely ride for fifty-five seconds, down to your landing area. You was hopeful that there wasn't a big gust of wind where it would interfere with your landing, but it was quite the thing.Little ThunderHad you been on a plane prior to that?
EnglandYou know, I've never had that question asked of me before, (Laughs) but I
don't think I'd been on an airplane before. I don't think I had. It was always trains or buses or cars.Little ThunderHow about the training that you did for the jump? Do you remember
a funny or kind of just memorable moment in your training?EnglandWell, my best friend, the one that--when I first went in, I joined at
Ponca City. They sent us by train or bus (I can't remember now) up to Kansas City. When we were in Kansas City, (this was kind of strange, really) there was 21:00about five hundred (I'm guessing five hundred) of us guys that was in this big room by the Union Station in Kansas City. We were all getting inducted into the Army, where we raise our hand and say we're going to be good soldiers, and all that stuff. but there was five hundred of us. We had to take our shirts off for some kind of a brief physical. They come around with a big red stick, like a tube of lipstick, and they would write on our chest. It was either "RA" or "US" or "ABN." You're looking around the room, and everybody's got something on their chest. Well, lo and behold, out of all these guys that are there, only four of us had "ABN" on our chest. Everybody else had "RA" or "US." Now we remembered 22:00that the "RA" stood for "regular Army." These were the volunteers.The "US" was the draftees because the draft, the United [States] Selective
Service draft, was still in effect. The "ABN," the four of us kind of found each other when we walked around. We were saying, "What the heck is 'ABN'? Are we different or something?" One guy finally said, "I think that means 'airborne'." So, there were four of us there that had joined the airborne, and so that kind of started our experience in there. One of the guys, his name was David Parker from Tonganoxie, Kansas. His father was the lone doctor in town. We stayed together the whole three years. We stayed together; it just worked out that way. I can remember our very first jump. He was on the opposite side of the plane, 23:00looking straight at me. He started sweating, and, boy, you could tell he was really scared. I can remember looking over at him, and I was scared, too, but I didn't want him to know it. I just said, "David, everything's going to be fine." He said, "Okay." Anyway, David and I stayed together the whole three years.Little ThunderWhat did you think of your officers there?
EnglandLiked the officers. The senior officers, like the captains and the majors
and stuff, they were all veterans, maybe ten-, fifteen-, twenty-year veterans that had been to Korea or the Second World War, but most of them had been to Korea. The lieutenants were really younger officers that were out of West Point, or they'd been through OCS, Officer Candidate School. I didn't have a problem 24:00with them. They tried to get me to go to OCS, (I had good enough grades to go) but no, I wanted to be an infantryman. I wanted to be a grunt in the paratroopers, so I chose not to.Little ThunderNow, did you ever, did you go overseas at all?
EnglandNever did. I was always at either Fort Bragg, North Carolina, for jump
school and basic training there--. Then we got transferred. Our whole unit that I was assigned to after jump school, we got transferred to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, where we reactivated the 101st Airborne Division. I stayed there the whole time. The only course we went on was several exercises where we would go, maybe, to Fort Polk, Louisiana, or some big major exercise and training and 25:00everything. It was kind of--infantry training was what I was in. I played basketball. Played baseball with the service teams. I guess the best time I had was when the bandmaster of the 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team, I guess, checked all my records and entry forms and found out I'd played in a band at Chilocco. I was in the Chilocco band. Then he called me up to his office one day at Fort Campbell, and he said, "England, how would you like to be in the Division band?" I said, "No, I don't think so. I think I like being where I'm at in the infantry over there." He says, "Trust me, you don't want to be in the infantry. You really want to be in the band." (Laughter) I said, "Okay! I'll 26:00take your judgment." Basically, for the next two and a half years, I did play in the Division band.Little ThunderWhat instrument?
EnglandI played clarinet. That was quite the exciting thing because we would
always go to college games and perform at halftime, or we would go to the Cherry Blossom Festival in Washington, or parades in Nashville, whatever. It was quite exciting, but I never got overseas. It was during 1955 to late 1958, and that was really when there was the Cold War was so to speak, and there wasn't any major conflicts or anything. Of course, we were always in training. We were always on alert, anticipating we would go, but it was just the timing that I was in.Little ThunderWell, you did go as part of the 101st Airborne to help protect the
Little Rock Nine students. Can you talk about that?EnglandWe didn't know anything at all about Little Rock or the students because
27:00we didn't read newspapers in the service. Pretty much, you were just up in the morning for your training and hanging out with your friends in your unit, and training purposes. Then go to bed and wait for the next day. One day, we thought we was going to make a jump. They tell us we're going to make a jump, and so we get the whole unit together. In this case, it wasn't the whole unit; it was just several. We went out to Campbell Air Force Base, where we thought we was going to go make a jump. We actually get on the planes, and usually, once we get on the plane, it's usually a five-, ten-, fifteen-minute ride until we go over the drop zones. Then we would all unload the plane and make our jump. This time here, we didn't jump. We just kept riding. I can't remember all the exact 28:00details, but it was probably over an hour or so. We were actually in flight, going down to Little Rock, Arkansas, but we didn't know that. We finally land, and we said, "Huh, we didn't jump." So we finally land and de-plane and get on some deuce-and-a-halfs, we call them, which was two-and-a-half-ton trucks with the canvas backing on it.Little ThunderStill no idea where you're going or what you're doing?
EnglandNo, so we got on that, and we knew we was going somewhere. One of our
buddies sticks his head out the back, and he said, "Hey! We're in Arkansas," because he saw an Arkansas highway sign. Shortly thereafter, we get off of the trucks at Central High School, and we find out that we're there for riot training, and help integrate the Little Rock Nine, they called them, which was 29:00nine coloreds, or black people, students. They was anticipating some trouble, and we was there to maintain order and help protect the kids integrating Central High School in Little Rock. I think I was there probably two months, three months. I can't remember the exact dates now. Then we went back to Fort Campbell after we got it done.Little ThunderWhat was it like on the day that the students came to school for
the first day?EnglandThe problem wasn't in the kids. The problem was the parents. I mean, we
didn't have any kind of riot training whatsoever. I mean, this was all new to us, and this is something that the 101st and the 82nd Airborne Divisions were doing at that time. They were always on alert, ready to go somewhere. So 30:00basically, we put bayonets on our M1 rifles, and we had the line. The parents tried to take our weapons from us and tried to penetrate our lines. It was an experience. The thing that I still remember is during the day we had conflicts with the parents, but at night, the kids would come around to our pup tents and pick us up and take us into town to go get Cokes or convenience stores or--. We were all too young to drink, so it was just hanging out with the kids. Then they would bring us back so we could make bed check that evening.Little ThunderSo, talking about kids, you mean high school students were coming--.
EnglandYeah, high school students. We had a great relationship with them. They
31:00was glad to see us. It was the parents that was giving us problems.Little ThunderWere you ever worried that there was actually going to be a riot,
that the crowd would--EnglandNo, I was probably not that smart. I mean, it was just what we did. We
was there and didn't think about it, really.Little ThunderWell, how about after you got out of the service? What did you do?
EnglandAfter I got out of the service, I went back to a printing job. I actually
took a job at the Independence Examiner in Independence, Missouri, as a linotype operator. Went to work up there probably for five or six or seven months. I can't remember. I got out of the service in May of 1958. Got back to Chilocco, 32:00tried to find some of my friends that I grew up with, employees' kids, but most of them were all gone. I said, "Well, it's time to go to work and get some money," because I didn't have any money.Little ThunderWell, had there been changes that you noticed at the school when
you came back?EnglandNo, not really. I mean, it was still the same old school. Home One, Two,
and Three were still there, which are now gone. The school was the same, except I didn't know anybody. I went to Independence, Missouri, into printing. Stayed there until probably about December; then I decided to go back to school at Arkansas City Junior College. That's where I'd left the first semester in '55, I guess it was. So I went back to Ark City and went to school that semester and graduated in 1959 from Ark City Junior College.Little ThunderWith a degree in--.
EnglandA degree in, I think it was just kind of a liberal arts degree, arts and
33:00sciences, I believe, because I didn't really have a major at that time. That's where I met my future wife, Beverly, Beverly Gordon. She was from Wichita. Then after I got out of school, I went back to Independence and went back to work again for the Examiner. Later on, I got married later on, my wife and I, [in November of 1959].Little ThunderAnd then at some point you went to the University of Missouri.
EnglandWell, I worked quite a while because we had four kids, and so that meant
I had to keep having money coming in. All the time, I was either working nights at the Kansas City Star as a union printer, but I was going to school sometime 34:00during the days whatsoever. My wife's parents had moved to Long Beach, California, and she was real close to her parents in Wichita. This was 1962; we'd been married probably about three years. We talked about it, so we decided to go to California because her sister was out there in Torrance, her folks were in Torrance. We packed up, and I think we had two kids at that time, born in '61 and '62, my two oldest sons. We go to California for two years. Two years was all we could take of California, and so we moved back to Kansas City. But the time we were in California, it was an ideal situation for me. I would work 35:00nights at the Long Beach Press-Telegram, or the Los Angeles Herald Examiner. I would work there at nights. Then during the day I would go to Long Beach State University. I didn't graduate from there, but I got real close, so that was my experience at Long Beach State. Then when we went back to Independence, from there I enrolled at University of Missouri-Kansas City, and that's where I got my degree from, from the four-year school.Little ThunderEventually, as I understand it, you started your own business.
EnglandWhen I got out of school, (I think I graduated in [June, 1967], I think
it was, somewhere about there) I got out of school, and I was thirty-[two] years old when I got my degree. We was all proud and celebrating that, and I was probably one of the oldest ones in my class. Anyway, I decided to try law 36:00school, so I enrolled at UMKC [University of Missouri-Kansas City] School of Law. I actually went to law school that first year, 1969. While there, I was still working nights at the Star, and so my college dean really didn't like that because he basically wanted me to spend all my free time in the law library. I can understand that, but I had to go earn a living, so I really worked and went to law school and helped my wife raise some kids. Well, when I started looking around at all the law school students in our classes, it seems like most of them, their fathers were lawyers or they were officers in a bank or they were 37:00officers and everything. I saw, really, right or wrong, I saw handwriting on the wall that, "If I ever get out of law school in two more years, after three years, I'm just going to be a little law clerk somewhere, and it's going to be rough on me." I decided, "No, I think I'll enter into the business world." My wife and I talked it over, and so I applied for a job with Maryland Casualty Insurance Company, got the job, and that started my insurance career.Little ThunderAnd eventually you specialized in, when you opened your own--.
EnglandI got the job with Maryland Casualty, and then I had some offers from
some of our agents. One was in Dodge City, Kansas, that wanted me to leave Maryland Casualty and go to Dodge City. I said, "No, I'm not quite ready for that," because my oldest son was wrestling for Truman High School in 38:00Independence. He said, "Dad, I don't want to go to Dodge City. I'm a good wrestler, and all my friends are in school here." All the other kids told me the same thing, so we just stayed there. After probably three years with Maryland Casualty, I had an offer form INA, Insurance Company North America, as a senior underwriter. It was a nice raise for me and a nice position, and I took that job. While with the INA, I was a casualty underwriter, meaning that personal accounts, homeowners, automobile, business accounts, general insurance, bonds, whatever, that was my position. One of our major agencies we dealt with, the 39:00business they did was Land Speed insurers out of Shawnee, Kansas. They specialized in auto racing insurance for speedways and drivers.Anyway, I thought that fascinating. I developed a really good rapport because
they would have to bring submissions in to me. It was my job to underwrite them if the bleachers were safe or whatever, to accept [them and] after a while, they really valued my input, and they offered me a job, leaving the INA and going to an insurance agency. Well, again, it was a nice raise, and that was welcomed by me and my wife to help us raise the kids. That was probably 1977, but after 40:00about five or six years, he decided to sell his agency. The owner decided to sell his agency to our number one competitor. At the time, we were like Avis, and our competitors was the Hertz. They were the class. He decides to sell his agency, and that throws all of our employees, his employees, in a tizzy. "What are we going to do now?" Essentially, they were gone. One of the insurance companies that he had under contract was Cigna, which is actually the Life Insurance Company of North America. I knew of them because of my deals with INA.They called me up one day, and they said, "George, we don't like what's going
down about, 'We're going to be gone,' because your boss has actually sold his agency to his competitor and our competitor, so all of the money that he's been 41:00sending in for premium, which was over a million dollars a year, it's going to be going bye-bye." He says, "Why don't you start your own agency, and as an insurance company we'll handle that book and business for you, and we'll help you set your agency up." I'd always worked for the other man as an employee. Talked about it, and he says, "This is what we want to do." Well, they put me on a plane, sent me back to Philadelphia, and explained what they wanted to do, which was a couple of days later after that phone call. To make a long story short, about two weeks later, I'm incorporated and got business cards made up and everything, and I'm on the way to Daytona Beach for a major insurance conference down there with all the agencies there and all the speedways there 42:00during Speedweeks and the Daytona 500. Anyway, I'm on my way down there. The first year, I ended up with twenty-five accounts.Little ThunderWow.
EnglandIn 2006, when we actually shut our agency down, retired, we had over 550
accounts. Anyway, that was that.Little ThunderAnd did you become a fan of speed racing?
EnglandI'm not too sure I was ever a fan, but it was our--.
Little ThunderBut you saw some speed. (Laughs)
EnglandOh, yeah, oh, I knew them all. We insured Richard Petty and the Waltrips
and Dick Trickle, and we knew all the people at NASCAR. Basically, our bread and butter was the little weekly speedways around different tracks, and we also insured the drivers and all that stuff. It was quite the thing because we were our own bosses, we could do what we wanted to do, and if we wanted to go watch 43:00races in Washington or Pennsylvania, we'd just load up and go. It was exciting, and it was probably one of the best things I ever did, was to get into that.Little ThunderThat's wonderful. Today, are you a member of any Native veterans groups?
EnglandI'm a tribal member of the Cherokee tribe. We have our own [affiliate]
chapter [of the CNAA] that I helped found, the Great Southwest chapter, which actually is the Chilocco Greater [Southwest] Chapter of New Mexico, and it's centered around New Mexico and Arizona, focusing in on the Navajos and the Hopis because there was a huge amount of the Navajos that went to school at Chilocco. We wanted to focus our efforts on getting them somewhere to go and help us 44:00organize and to meet for summers and stuff.Little ThunderWhy are the Chilocco reunions important to you?
EnglandIt just seems like you can't get away from Chilocco. I just enjoy my time
with the Association, going to reunions. It seems like most of the students migrate back to our reunions, especially since we have had our last several reunions here at the Seven Clans First Council Resort Hotel and Casino, because it's right next door to Chilocco. We were always going out there to remember our 45:00memories and everything, and see the school again. It's just hard to get away.Little ThunderAnd how about the Chilocco veterans, specifically that group,
getting together? Why is that important to you?EnglandWell, we just talk about the service because we were at Chilocco
together, playing ball together with each other, or were classmates, whatever, and we just share military experiences, Chilocco experiences with them. Like Leroy Sakiestewa who graduated in 1952, we wear our hats, we talk to each other, and we share stories. It's just nice to get back once a year and to see people. Our Great Southwest chapter, we usually meet three or four times a year, and we look forward to those meetings either in Tucson or Flagstaff or Farmington or 46:00Albuquerque. Even though it does take time to go to those places, for me, from Kansas City, to kind of put the meetings together, I wouldn't have it any other way. It's fun to do that.Little ThunderAnd even though you don't live in that area, you saw a need for a
Southwest chapter, which was why you organized that.EnglandYes, yeah, that's what we did because it gives them a way to keep in
touch with Chilocco, and they all want to do that.Little ThunderYou've been nominated for the Cherokee Patriot Medal, and of
course you haven't heard the final word yet. What do you think--makes different 47:00tribal nations and their attitudes towards veterans, what makes it a little bit different from the mainstream attitude?EnglandWell, I've always thought that all the tribes, the Pawnee tribes and the
Cherokees and the Choctaws, Tonkawas, I mean, all the tribes, they just seem to have a greater appreciation towards veterans. One of the things that you see is always the gourd dancing, and the gourd dancing was started, I believe, by the Pawnees that welcomed soldiers back from World War II. Then they would have the gourd dances to welcome them back. It seems like it's always been the same. They just appreciate the veterans, and it makes you feel good that somebody has always recognized you. Of course, we've all heard the stories about the veterans 48:00coming back from the Vietnam War and getting spit on and stuff like that, but that was with a different class of people that did that. It never happened with our friends and the tribes. It just seems like we appreciate it, and I'm sure they appreciate us, too.Little ThunderWhat would you like people to know or remember from your story?
EnglandHow proud I am of being a Chilocco graduate and that my memories of the
school will never go away, that we'll always have a chance to come back and reminisce, talk about the things that happened there, us growing up and sharing our experiences with other students, staying with them in the dormitories, and just hanging out together. It's an experience I'll never forget, and I'm sure 49:00all the other people feel the same way.Little ThunderIs there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to cover?
EnglandNo, not really, except I was proud to be the valedictorian when I was at
school. Looking at everything now is that our education was different from what the kids are getting now in school. They're actually getting calculus and engineering classes, but we were just doing the basic things like arithmetic, and math, and English and learning the grammar, the English language and structuring. It seems like we never had homework to do. I mean, I can't remember doing homework for anything, but we were busy. We were learning things, but it was a little different then as to what the kids are doing now. Like I said, I 50:00remember going to college that first year at Graceland, and people were using slide rules and all that stuff. I said, "Oh, my gosh, what's that do?" "Well, it multiplies for us," so forth. It was a whole different experience, and one I'll never forget.Little ThunderWell, thank you, George, for your time today, and thank you for
your service to our country, too.EnglandI appreciate it, thank you.
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