Oral history interview with Maurice Howe

Little Thunder My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. I'm interviewing Maurice Howe for the Chilocco Alumni Association here at Chilocco Indian School outside of Newkirk, Oklahoma. Maurice, you served in Vietnam as a Specialist [4th] Class. You attended Chilocco, as well. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Howe I was born in Pawnee, Oklahoma, and I grew up in White Eagle, Oklahoma.

Little Thunder What did your folks do for a living?

Howe I was raised up by my grand[parents], and I worked with [my grandfather] on the farm at White Eagle for a man by the name of John Hron.

Little Thunder Any brothers or sisters?

Howe I have two brothers and one sister left. The others have passed on.

Little Thunder Where did you fall in the lineup?

Howe I'm the oldest.

Little Thunder What was your exposure to Ponca language and culture growing up?

Howe I was brought up on the reservation at White Eagle, and the Ponca language was spoke mainly by older ones, the elders. I never got around to visiting them. They never taught me about the language. My grandfather said that it's best that I learned how to work and do a job. He said that way, my being able to work and hold a job there, I can compete with everybody in this world. It's changing all 2:00the time. My grandma agreed. Said, "Okay, we'll do that." So that is what--. I was around the Indian culture because that's we done. [My grandmother wanted to teach us the Ponca language.] I would always be at powwows, and I was raised up all among Indians. I was never around the white people until I went into the ninth grade, and that was really a change for me.

Little Thunder Was it there at Ponca City?

Howe It was Arkansas City; that's where my mother lived. I graduated out of White Eagle. I had to go on to junior high school, so I went to Arkansas City Junior High School where there was all these white kids, and black kids, Hispanic. It was just completely new to me, and it really threw me off. I did 3:00not do all that well with them. I mean, I'd get along with them, but I wasn't used to being around them. I therefore went to school at Fort Sill Indian School.

Little Thunder Okay.

Howe Then I graduated high school out at Fort Sill Indian School, and then I come here to Chilocco as a postgraduate in heavy equipment.

Little Thunder I see. Was there any adjustment? What kinds of adjustments did you make coming from Fort Sill to Chilocco?

Howe It was an easy adjustment. At first, I had problems at Fort Sill because there was rules and regulations. I could not come and go as I wanted to. You had to have a pass. To go to town, you had to have a pass. To go off the campus or down to a creek, you had to have a pass. You had to sign in and sign out. You 4:00can't go to this part of the campus or that part. I did not do too well with rules. Usually it was come and go as I want because I lived out in the country. If I wanted to go down to the river and go fishing, I'd go down to the river and go fishing, no questions asked, anything. I had problems with that there, but I was able to overcome that. That's just the way it is. My uncle taught me that. He said, "You got it easy. You wait until you get into the Marine Corp." He was a Marine. I listened to him. Okay. After I got out of high school and I come here to Chilocco, it was really just a piece of cake.

Little Thunder You were ready? (Laughs)

Howe I was ready.

Little Thunder What was one of the easiest or best things you encountered at Chilocco?

Howe The easiest and the best thing, I enjoyed campus activities there. After school, we could walk around out there on the oval, come in here to the student 5:00union, have a little fellowship, a little friendship there. In the dormitories, we done the same thing. We had our fun. We had our ups and downs, but as a general rule, we all got along good. Now we're having reunions. We always have. They all get together. It's been over thirty years since the school closed, but they're still showing up and still have good memories of this place, even though it's in somewhat bad shape. People still come here because they remember it as it was, not as it is now.

Little Thunder So how did your background both at Fort Sill, I guess, and at Chilocco help prepare you for military service?

Howe I was used to the rules and regulations. "You can do this. You get told to do something, you need to do it. You need to mop that floor. You need to keep your clothes hung up neat, washed, laundered. When you're told to do something, 6:00you need to go ahead and do it, or you're going to be in trouble." In other words, when I went to the Army, I had no problem with taking orders. So many people I seen when I first went in the Army had the biggest problem taking orders. They could not take orders, and naturally they got in trouble. I had no problem, and when I went into basic, basic training, they made me what they called a senior trainee drill instructor.

Little Thunder Wow!

Howe That's what I did. I got out of a lot of kitchen detail by having that. I got out of scrubbing pots and pans. (Laughter)

Little Thunder That's wonderful. Now, were you drafted for Vietnam, or did you enlist?

Howe I was drafted. I graduated out of here at Chilocco in heavy equipment. 7:00That's the course I took while I was here. I graduated about, oh, in March. I left here in March on OJT [on-the-job training], and graduation was in May. My teacher, Mr. [Nathan] Benton, said, "You're leaving early here. I know you hate to go, but this is the reason you came here in the first place. You're going on OJT, and you're going to be on heavy equipment. You're going to be working for a company, and you will be getting paid to run this equipment." It was pretty good. It was all Caterpillar. "That's why you're here." I knew that, so for me, leaving Chilocco is kind of bittersweet. I hated to leave the school because I enjoyed myself here so much. On the other hand, I was going out on the job and going to be running heavy equipment, what I was here for in the first place. That was kind of, that was good, too.

Little Thunder Where did you go to OJT?

Howe I went to Burden, Kansas, and worked for a company called Shore and Sons Construction. Every year, Red Shore, the boss, would come here to Chilocco and get boys from Mr. Benton's heavy equipment class to come up there, and he would give us a job.

Little Thunder He knew they were good.

Howe Yeah, we done good there. He said, "Except we couldn't get the boys to stay. They always want to go home whether it be Arizona, New Mexico, down in southern Oklahoma, Texas. At the end of the school year, they're all ready to go home. They're supposed to stay here to work. If they could just get them to stay here and work, that would be so great." Mr. Benton said, "What can I do to help out?" He says, "You don't have to do nothing. All they got to do is show up. We'll teach them what they need to know out here." That's what I did. I run heavy equipment for a good many years. That's what I did when I was in the Army 9:00in Vietnam: cleared jungle and built helicopter landing pads, fire support bases. Built runways and repaired highway. They called it a highway from the town of--I can't think of the name of it. I know it. I got it right at the tip of my tongue. Anyway, it was about ten or twelve miles of road. They said it was a highway. We looked at it, and to us it looked like a donkey trail. Anyway, we got it fixed. The reason we fixed it, repaired it, is so our convoys could get from Lai Khe, (that's the name I was trying to think of) could get from Lai Khe to Quan Loi [Base/Airfield] and not have a real rough road and tear up the 10:00trucks and any other vehicle they had getting ammunition, food, stuff with supplies that the base needed. That's what we did.

Little Thunder Were you taken out away from Burden, Kansas, when you got drafted?

Howe Yes.

Little Thunder You were working on that job?

Howe I was working on that job, yes. I got my notice and handed it to the boss. He said, "I hate to see you leave, but you have a job when you get back..."

Little Thunder Oh, that's cool.

Howe--and I did.

Little Thunder What boot camp did you get sent to?

Howe I took basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.

Little Thunder Had you ever been in Missouri before?

Howe No, not that I can--. Well, I had been up to Kansas City, Missouri, but 11:00that was for examination before I got drafted, for a physical examination and test like that. I was in Missouri then; that was in Kansas City. That was about it as far as Missouri, anyway. -- Next thing I know, I'm at Fort Leonard Wood.

Little Thunder What was the hardest thing about basic training?

Howe The hardest thing about basic training was, oh, it was pretty much, it wasn't all that bad. At that time, I was in halfway decent shape, and I was able to perform, get around, run up and down the lines there, making sure everybody was keeping up when we were walking from one place to the other, you know. I was able to run up and down the lines here, yelling at them, "Keep up." Used a little different terminology, but that's what I was doing. It was all fairly 12:00easy. Well, not easy. I mean, it was a lot of stress and everything, but it was nothing that I couldn't handle.

Little Thunder At Fort Leonard were any of your fellow Chiloccoans out there?

Howe I did not see any.

Little Thunder Okay. How about Native soldiers?

Howe There was one Native there. He was a Shoshone. What a Shoshone was doing in Fort Leonard Wood, I don't know. They was supposed to be from way out west somewhere. Anyway, he was there. He was a pretty good olʽ guy. I liked him.

Little Thunder Kind of nice to have another Indian guy--.

Howe He was a nice guy. He was the only Indian I had in our whole company, just me and him.

Little Thunder Wow. So you spent some time together?

Howe Yeah, we done fairly well on the rifle range, too.

Little Thunder I was thinking you might have. Did you hunt a lot as a boy growing up?

Howe I'm sorry.

Little Thunder Did you hunt as a boy growing up on the farm?

Howe Oh, yes, yes, I would hunt rabbits and squirrels. At that time, that's about what we had down there around White Eagle, just rabbits and squirrels. Later years, a bunch of deer started coming around. At that time, I had a little single-shot .22 rifle and a couple of dogs, and that's where I went hunting. I'd get some rabbits, and I'd get some squirrels. Of course, I had a fishing pole and went down to the river, the Salt Fork River, and caught me some fish, too.

Little Thunder So at boot camp, were there any instructors that you remember that stood out?

Howe Our senior drill instructor, the head man, the drill instructor, he was a pretty good guy. His name was Barnes. He was rough and kind of hard to get along 14:00with, they say, but I never had no trouble with him, I think mainly because when he said something, I went and done it and didn't give him no back talk. Same way with all the other drill instructors. I think we had one instructor per platoon, and there was four platoons, and then the senior drill instructor, which was Sergeant Barnes. He was the boss over the other four drill instructors, and, well, he called all the shots. Anyway, I got along pretty good with him.

Little Thunder What was the response from your family or community when you were drafted?

Howe Everybody was proud. Everybody said, "It's good that you're going to the military as a Native American." They said, "Native Americans--" (back then they said Indians) "--always do good in the military, especially when they get on the rifle range. They do real good there." "Okay." They said, "When you go there, 15:00you just remember all those that went before you. They served proudly. You do the same." So that's what I did.

Little Thunder What family members or extended family had been in the service before you?

Howe I had my uncle Bruce, my uncle Keith, my uncle Gene, my uncle Earl.

Little Thunder Wow, World War II?

Howe Korea, World War II, and Vietnam. My uncle went to Vietnam in the early years, 1963, early '60s before everything even started, maybe even '59, '60, somewhere along in there. There was just a handful of troops there at that time, I guess. My grandpa's brother, Oliver Howe, he was in the Army during World War I. That was before they even let Indians be citizens. They were still serving, 16:00and they served with honor. Well, one of the sergeants told me, he says, "Indians make some of the best combat soldiers that ever walked the earth." That kind of made me proud and want to do better.

Little Thunder Right. What most surprised you about being at boot camp?

Howe What most surprised me? Oh, had some little-bitty, scrawny specialist coming out there screaming and hollering at me. I looked at him, and he couldn't have been more than eighteen years old, and here I was. I think I was twenty-one. "Who is this little kid yelling at me? Who does he think he is? Maybe he needs a little lesson." That's when my uncles was telling me, "They'll 17:00be doing that. They're doing that just to get under your skin. Anytime you're in that military, whatever you do, you do not let them officers or NCOs get under your skin. They like that. You just stand there and take it. Grin at them." Well, maybe don't grin at them. "What I'm saying is just don't let them get under your skin." No matter how much they ranted and raved, it didn't faze me a bit. That's just the way I was brought up. My uncles taught me that.

Little Thunder Now, you were in Fort Carson, Colorado, too, for a while?

Howe Yes, yes, I was at Fort Carson after I got out of basic training, boot camp. In basic training, about 99 percent or thereabouts, they get out of basic training, and they are assigned to go to AIT, advanced individual training. With me, they did not send me to AIT. They put me right direct with a engineer unit 18:00simply because I went to school here at Chilocco and took heavy equipment course with Mr. Benton here. I went from here on OJT, working heavy equipment on the job at Burden, Kansas. With that experience here, the schooling I had here, which was two years, and my experience on the job of about a year, they said, "There ain't no need to send him to AIT. We'll just put him right direct with a engineer unit." So that's where I went, the 52nd Engineers, 31st Battalion in Fort Carson, Colorado, 1968.

Little Thunder Had you ever been to Colorado before?

Howe No, I never had. I never had the inclination to go. I was perfectly satisfied with where I was at with my fishing pole, my rifle, my dogs, and where 19:00I was at.

Little Thunder Did you get to go off base at all when you were at Colorado?

Howe Oh, yes, yes, yes, you can sign out as soon as you got done with your duty hours was is usually seven to five, I believe it is, and you're off duty. "If you want to go in town, fine, go, have a good time. Enjoy yourself, but I want to see your smiling faces at six o'clock in the morning in formation." "Okay." "I don't care if you got to hang onto each other. I want you here." (Laughter) That's what happened. It was a pretty good experience there.

Little Thunder Did you get a chance to spend some time at home before you shipped overseas?

Howe I got a thirty-day leave before going over to Vietnam.

Little Thunder Were there any special doings for you?

Howe No, just got with the family. I went and talked to relations and 20:00everything. They all told me, "Just take care of yourself." I remember what my uncle said. He said, "They got medals over there to decorate your uniform. Don't you worry about those medals. To heck with them. It ain't nothing but a little chunk of metal with a piece of cloth on it. The main thing you do is you take care of yourself. I'll say it again, do not worry about medals," so I didn't.

Little Thunder When you shipped to Vietnam, where did you land?

Howe I landed at Bien Hoa Air Base.

Little Thunder Where'd you go after that?

Howe From there, our basecamp that I was assigned to was in Phuoc Vinh, South Vietnam.

Little Thunder Did you know much about the war when you got there?

Howe All I knew is our government said we were fighting the spread of communism. That's all they told us. They would not elaborate on anything else.

Little Thunder You were with the heavy equipment, the engineer battalion, engineering company.

Howe Yes.

Little Thunder Were you the only Native American in that group?

Howe There was two. There was two of them in my company. One guy's name was Duane Flarry. He's gone now. Been gone for several years. He was from South Dakota. He was a Sioux Indian. The other one, I can't remember his first name, but his last name was Benally. He was a Navajo. He was our armor. He's the one that took care of all the weapons and made sure they was in working order. If something was wrong with our weapon, he'd fix it. That was the two, plus myself. 22:00There was three of us.

Little Thunder What was life like after you arrived?

Howe In Vietnam?

Little Thunder Yes.

Howe Hot.

Little Thunder Different from Oklahoma heat?

Howe Different, a lot of humidity. They don't have summer, spring, winter, and fall. They got the rainy season and the hot season. Monsoon.

Little Thunder Did you have enough supplies?

Howe Well, sometimes we was getting pretty low on our C-rations if we was out on a project, but it was really nothing. We didn't worry too much about that. What 23:00we was more concerned about was making sure we had plenty of ammunition. They would send helicopters in with what we needed in case we called for it. We never carried a whole bunch with us because it was too cumbersome. We had to have somebody take care of that and bring, and just take care of us, somebody special just to do that. We was out there trying to get a job done and stuff like that. That's what we did. If we needed something there, we'd call it in, and they would get it to us by helicopter if they could, if they didn't receive too heavy of ground fire.

Little Thunder I see. Were there units that went out that cleared the way for you to make the roads, or--Howe We had combat engineers. There's a difference. I think they're the same thing as the infantry, myself. What they do, they put out there what they call a mine sweep team. They got these little--metal detectors, 24:00and they'll go on the existing road and move the detector from side to side, each side, and walk on down the road. They don't do that good of a job because we hit them even after the road has been swept. We've had trucks still hit them, and naturally it's a catastrophe.

Little Thunder What was the hardest thing to deal with on your job?

Howe On my job as an operator? The job itself was not hard. It was just regular run of the mill stuff that I was used to doing anyway. What concerned me was sniper fire and hostile activity toward my well being. You always had to be on 25:00the watch. Sometimes you might go several days, nothing happens, everything's fine. Then all of a sudden the whole thing falls apart, scrambling and doing whatever we had to do to keep from being hurt.

Little Thunder What's a moment or experience for you that stands out--Howe A moment in Vietnam?

Little Thunder--or an experience in Vietnam that stands out for you?

Howe Well, there was combat. Men, at night, they was just boys. "All right, men!" Men? They're nothing but boys. They're eighteen, nineteen years old. I lost some friends. I lost some friends. I know they're all right now. My 26:00happiest moment over there was when I got on what they call a Freedom Bird.

Little Thunder Is that right?

Howe Yeah. It lifted up off the ground where I landed at. -- It was where I first come in--Bien Hoa. I got on that Freedom Bird there, a commercial aircraft that picks us up and brings us in or takes us home.

Little Thunder I see.

Howe We all got in our plane, and it took off there. As soon as it left the ground, everybody yelled, "Hooray!" Everybody done that.

Little Thunder They were happy for you.

Howe Everybody was happy just to leave. A lot of times, when you first left, the plane would go up gradually, gaining altitude. Ours was kind of like one of them roller coasters. Looked like it went straight up. I guess it was to avoid ground fire, just in case there should be some. That was my best moment there.

Little Thunder Was that just at the end of your tour?

Howe That was at the end of our tour, yes.

Little Thunder When you guys were in your unit, how did you entertain yourselves?

Howe Sometimes we would have, maybe once a month there would be what they call a floor show. It used to have some Filipinos or whatever, or somebody from Thailand. They come and put a floor show there. It used to have what they called go-go girls. Had their little olʽ short dresses on there, and they had a band there. They'd be singing rock and roll songs from the ʼ60s. They'd be up there 28:00twisting and shaking. We'd all be screaming and hollering, you know. They had their beer tents, but if anybody got out of hand, they'd close it down. They said, "Can't take care of yourself and act like soldiers, you can't have no beer," and shut down. Anyway, that was if we was at base camp. Most of the time, we was out working. In fact--about four months straight, I think I seen our base camp about four times, and that was only to go in to get paid.

Little Thunder Do you recall any particularly humorous or something like a prank that somebody pulled either at base camp, I guess, or--

Howe One thing that stands out and I'll always remember is these guys went to the EM [enlisted men's] Club, the beer tent. They all had a pretty good olʽ 29:00time there. There was about five of them. I forget who they were. I used to be able to name them all. They was walking back to the hooch, where we slept. They was walking down the road right next to the perimeter, and there was a guard bunker up there. There was three guards up there. They always have them so many yards apart. They was walking down there, talking, having a good time. They had a password. The guard says one word, and then you say the counter to it. At that time, the guard would say, "Mosquito," and the one--would respond with, "Repellant." Okay. They got there. The guard hollered out, "Halt! Who's there?" 30:00They all stopped. Guard yells out, "Mosquito!" One of the guys, (I don't know exactly who he was) he said, "Blankety-blank! Goddamn mosquito!" (Laughter) "Shut up! Shut up!" One of the other guys started hollering to the other ones, "Repellant! Repellant!" (Laughs) That was kind of funny. I don't know if the guard laughed or not. I don't think he was too impressed. After it was all said and done, we all got a pretty good laugh out of it.

Little Thunder That's funny. What did you think of the officers there?

Howe We had some good officers and some bad officers. The best officers we had, I believe, are the ones that graduated out of West Point. However, we had some pretty good officers that were OCS, [officer candidate school] come fresh out of 31:00college--. Most of them little kids. Come out as second lieutenants. They had the little gold bar on their--for second lieutenant. Oh, they were military. They were general. They knew everything there is. They knew about keeping boots shined, clean pressed uniforms, white gloves, and everything. They knew all about that and knew procedures and everything, which is fine. That's part of the military. But when they got to Vietnam, it's a horse of a different color. We've been on convoys, and we've been ambushed on convoys.

We know as soon as that hostile fire begins, your shotgun, the guy who's riding with you, he starts returning fire even if he can't see nothing. He starts shooting out, and it's all down through there. You get out of there. You get out 32:00of there just as fast as you can. These lieutenants, these new guys, you know, are standing, like, circle the wagons. "No, you don't do that. Next time, I'm going to be leading the convoy, and if we get hit, the first thing I'm going to do, I'm having my driver turn that jeep around, and I'm headed right back into where we are being hit. If anybody's in my way, I'll run you right off the road." Well, it worked the flat opposite when we got hit. They run him off the road and about got him and his driver killed.

He survived because we got the helicopter gunships coming out. They was pretty close by, anyway. We got back to Quan Loi, and he come out there just as mad as can be. "What are you guys trying to do?! Get me killed?" "Well, we knew what to do." One of the sergeants told him, "The next time you get ambushed, you get out 33:00of there. Those guys behind you, they know what to do." That's the way that went. Officers, for the most part, we got along pretty good. They try to talk to you, reason with you. Sometimes a sergeant won't reason with you. They just say, "Hey, this is what you're doing." They're the backbone of the Army, anyway, I think.

Little Thunder Were there a lot of casualties in your unit?

Howe Had some wounded, had several. Somebody told me, (I don't know if it's true or not) said the Viet Cong was offering a can of sardines to any of their troops that would get an engineer. I thought, "Thanks a lot. My life is worth a can of 34:00sardines." They'd do anything for a can of sardines, I guess. That's something they really enjoyed, I guess. You could get a whole bunch of them at the PX [post exchange]. One can of sardines, they'd do anything for it. That's what happened on that deal. (Laughter)

Little Thunder Were you awarded any medals or citations?

Howe Our unit got a Presidential Unit Citation. I have a regular, run of the mill, Vietnam Service Medal, Vietnam Campaign Medal, National Defense [Service] Medal, and I've got the Army Commendation Medal, and the Army Commendation Medal with the first oak leaf cluster. Naturally, I got the Expert Rifleman badge. I said I wasn't too interested in medals. In rank, I was E-4 Specialist 4th Class. 35:00Well, I was an engineer. Engineers, when they get promotion from E-4 up to E-5, they have to go before a board, and that means they got to shine their boots up, press out the fatigues, uniforms, get real nice and clean and shaved, and stand at attention in front of four or five guys who ask you some dumb questions about who's the leader of the Philippine Islands. Who is the--commander? Who's the--. Who gives a dang? That's the way I felt about it. That's the way it was. With the infantry and other units, they would give what they called a field promotion. "Okay, you done good today. You are now a sergeant." "You're a E-5, E-6," or, "You went from PFC to Specialist 4th Class." It's a field promotion; 36:00they didn't do nothing. They just said, "Okay, here you go." With engineers, you had to go before a board. It just wasn't worth the trouble to me. My job was to go and run the heavy equipment, stay alive, and come home.

Little Thunder Did you write letters home while you were there?

Howe Yes, I wrote to my grandfather all the time. My grandmother passed on when I was at Fort Carson. I would write to him and write to my mom. First thing would say on all of them, "I'm doing just fine. I'm okay. Don't worry. I'll be home in a little bit." You don't tell them about what's going on--.

Little Thunder Well, when you got back, what was it like? Where did you land when you took that Freedom [Bird]?

Howe When we landed, we landed in California, Oakland Army Base there. We come 37:00in there, and very lucky. Our group was very lucky because we didn't get in there until about three o'clock in the morning. Them Marines and all the other military guys come in during the daytime. First thing they done, they run in face to face with all these hippies and war protesters spitting on them, cussing them, calling them baby killers and murderers. "I'm glad your buddy died." This and that, all kinds of obscenities, not realizing that we didn't start that war. We went because our country called us. We did not kill women or children in 38:00general. That's not what we was out to do. Sometimes it happened. In all wars, I found no matter what time in history, in all wars innocent people are going to die. It's happened in World War II, World War I, and even the Civil War. Innocent people died. Why is Vietnam different? I know we didn't have no business there, but they didn't need to take it out on us. We were just trying to do our job, and we did.

Little Thunder What was it like going back home?

Howe I couldn't wait to get home. I couldn't wait to get home. I didn't call or anything. At that time, we didn't have cell phones. We had to go in a phone booth and call and hope that somebody was home to answer the phone. We didn't 39:00have a phone at home, anyway. I said, "What do I do? I'll just surprise them." That's what I did. I just come in, knocked on the door, "Hey, I'm home!" Everyone said, "Hey! Maurice! Maurice is home!" --hugs and everything. There was a lot of guys that didn't, but that's beside the point. The point is I had a good reception when I got home.

Little Thunder Did they have an honor dance for you or anything?

Howe They was going to have a honor dance for me, the Ponca Tribe was. What happened is that the day that dance was supposed to take place, somebody had passed on. An elder had passed on, and they was having the funeral that day to honor that elder. They said, "Well, we've got to cancel your dance because of this funeral." I said, "That's fine. That's all right." The thought was there, and that's what was important.

Little Thunder Afterwards, you went back to work for the same Kansas company? 40:00Did you go back to Kansas to go to work?

Howe Yes, yes, after I got back from Vietnam, I took thirty days off, and all I done was sit around. Slept late, done whatever I wanted to, and the next thing, I went to mailbox. Well, my mom did. "Maurice?" "What?" "You got a letter." Who would write to me? It was from Red Shore, the boss. "Hey, that's from Shore and Sons Construction!" I opened it up and looked at it. It only had seven words in it. It said, "Maurice, get your blank back up here." (Laughter) Red Shore wanted me to get back up and get to work, so that's what I did. I went back up there.

Little Thunder How long did you stay with them?

Howe I worked for them for ten years. After that, I worked for several other different construction companies. That's what heavy equipment operators did. They'd work for one company, and then they may move to Texas. "Well, I don't want to go to Texas." "Where you going?" "Well, this company's going to western Kansas." "Okay, I'll go with that. It's closer to home, anyway." Just switched jobs. To me, it's a single man's job. It's really hard to be married. You work at one job for about seven, eight months there, and then pick up and move to another town. She won't be able to settle down. She's just sitting there, waiting for the next place. "Where we going to move to next? Where we going to move after that?" With me being single all them years, it didn't matter. "Okay, I'll go over here." That's what I did.

Little Thunder But when you got married, you--.

Howe I settled down. I still worked for a construction company, but stayed 42:00pretty much close to Ark City at that time. Had to drive from Burden to Ark City to go to work there, but I still went to work. After that, I found another job in Winfield, Kansas. It was a plastics company. I said, "Oh, it's going to be kind of nice working on the inside." Heck, I froze in the wintertime, running heavy equipment. "It's going to be nice working on the inside." I worked there. Well, I just stayed pretty much employed all my life. I retired, and I got bored with retirement, so I went back to work. Don't do nothing.

Little Thunder Good for you!

Howe I work at Wal-Mart. I work in the hardware department. Used to work in lawn and garden, but hardware's easier. Anything that's easier anymore--.

Little Thunder Right. Are you a member of any Native veterans groups?

Howe Cindy had me down as a member of Post 38 White Eagle. I had been a member there for a lot of years. A lot of times at powwows, I'd go to powwows there, and the commander says, "Hey, Maurice, we need a flag bearer," or, "We need a rifleman." That's what I do. Even today, I think they are going to be asking me to carry a flag at the powwow sometime today or tonight.

Little Thunder Wonderful. Why are the Chilocco reunions important to you?

Howe Chilocco reunions?

Little Thunder Reunions, why are they important to you?

Howe I can come back there, and when I come back there, I can see things the way it was when I was here and all the good times and fun that I had. It was a home away from home. Like everybody here says, it's a home away from home. If it wasn't for Chilocco, I don't know where I would have been, but they took care of 44:00me. All the people are nice. I made a lot of friends. That's what Chilocco, to me, is all about. The main thing is I picked up a occupation. That's what they gave me. This school has given me a lot. All of us, all of us, it has given us a lot.

Little Thunder How about getting together with Chilocco veterans? Why is that important to you--getting together with Chilocco veterans?

Howe Anytime we get together with the veterans, it's an honor, and if they're from Chilocco, it's even more so.

Little Thunder It seems like, you know, after Vietnam, mainstream society was kind of trying to follow the lead in the way Indian country treats its veterans. It seems like mainstream society is trying to move that way. Do you think it's working better?

Howe Here about two years ago, I went down to the Kanza Clinic at Newkirk. I 45:00went there to pick up some medicine for my heart. The nurse says, "Maurice, the VA is going to be here on such and such a date for a meeting with all Native veterans." "They are?" "Yes. You going to go? You need to go." I says, "I don't know. The VA hasn't done nothing for me in the last forty some-odd years. Why should they start now?" The first thing I done, I got mad. I started to walk out, and she said, "Well, they are noticing a big sharp decline in Native Americans applying for benefits. I said, "Every time they go to apply for benefits they get the stone wall or given the run around, and they just say, 'To heck with it,' and don't even worry about it." There's a lot of Native Americans 46:00out there that deserve benefits from the VA, but they're not getting them. That's what that meeting was about.

Anyway, I went there. She said, "They're serving dinner." I said, "Okay, I'll be there," so I went. My navigator, they called her, she's the one that told me about the decline in Native Americans not applying for benefits. She said, "Fill these forms out for the VA benefits. They're quite lengthy, but you fill them out and send them in, and there'll be more. Keep filling them out and sending them in. You need to. I'll see to it that you get everything that you need. You fill them out, and you mail them in. Whatever you do, don't quit on them. You stick right with them." I did. Sometimes it's frustrating. I mean, I answer some questions about four or five times, seems like. That's the government. Start getting mad and say, "To heck with it. If that money means that much to you, 47:00keep it. Got along without them this long." I remember what she said, (stick with them) so I did. She said it'll take about a year.

After about a year, they called me up to Wichita for a CP meeting, which was a compensation and pension thing. They asked me what was wrong and am I suffering from post traumatic stress. Somehow or another, I've been covering it up. I'm really short tempered, but I get over it real quick. I just keep saying to myself, "It'll pass. It'll pass. It'll pass." A lot of things can trigger it. Anyway, to make it short, he determined that I was 50 percent disabled because of post traumatic stress disorder. Now they are giving me, I don't know if it's 48:00a pension or a compensation. I don't know what they call it. Anyway, they're taking care of us that way, but they haven't given me nothing for Agent Orange. I put something in, and they said they didn't have enough information. I didn't know anything about Agent Orange except my buddies are dying.

They said they don't have enough information. Anyway, I guess it's pending. I'm satisfied with what they're giving me. I am registered to go to the veterans hospital up there at Wichita if I can get in. Might die before I can get there. I do have a appointment I got to make here after the reunion is over for a yearly checkup, they tell me. They been doing pretty good, helping me as much as they could, I think mostly because they got in trouble. Anyway, they did give me some hearing aids. I've had problems with hearing. I was in such a hurry to get 49:00down here today, I went off and forgot them. That's how come I got to say, "What? What?" (Laughter) The lady up at the audiologist said, "These hearing aids, they don't do it all, but they will help." And they do. They really help, but I forgot them today, so I'm going to be saying, "What? What? What?" (Laughter)

Little Thunder Tomorrow, you'll have them.

Howe I get all my medication from the VA.

Little Thunder I see.

Howe All I got to do is get on the--they got a way on the telephone where you punch this number and that number. Next thing you know, a few days later, it comes in the mail. That's something real good because there's so many people out there that can't afford medicine and have to do without. I feel for them.

Little Thunder I'm so glad you got your benefits. Well, what would you like people to know or remember from your story?

HoweUs Chilocco veterans, all us Native American veterans, we served our 50:00country, and we were proud to do so. Some of us lived; some of us paid the price. I'm proud that I was among them. I'm proud that I'm a Chilocco veteran. That's even more. That's even better.

Little Thunder I thank you for your service. Is there anything else we should talk about that we didn't cover?

Howe I can't think of anything, as long as they know that I'm a Native American Indian. They served their country. They didn't run to Canada. That happened back in the ʼ60s, everybody running to Canada. Then our government welcomed them back. Hippies, I won't even go into that. Ain't nothing that come out of my 51:00mouth that would describe them. Maybe they meant well, but to me they just--well, they can do whatever they want as long as they stay away from me. [I am so proud to be Native American and a Native American veteran.]

Little Thunder Well, thank you for sharing your story with us Maurice.

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