Oral history interview with Alfred Frejo

Little Thunder Okay, my name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University, and I'm interviewing Alfred Frejo for the Chilocco Alumni Association here at Chilocco Indian School outside of Newkirk, Oklahoma. Alfred, you attended Chilocco as a postgrad, and you also served in the 45th Oklahoma National Guard unit. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Frejo I was born in Pawnee, Oklahoma, Pawnee Indian Hospital. We were there for about two or three years. I more or less grew up in Oklahoma City after that.

Little Thunder Okay. What did your folks do for a living?

Frejo My dad, when I was born, he went out to California to work in the shipyards. He was a welder. He learned how to weld out there. Then he came back to Oklahoma, and he continued his occupation in Oklahoma City as a welder.

Little Thunder How about your mom?

Frejo My mother was a homemaker.

Little Thunder Do you have brothers and sisters?

Frejo I've got three brothers and three sisters. I'm the oldest.

Little Thunder Okay. Were you around Pawnee language and culture very much growing up?

Frejo A little, not a whole lot. I used to usually spend the summers at Pawnee, visiting my grandmother and my aunt. Spend the summer there, coming from Oklahoma City and then spending the summer. As far as really being in touch with the Pawnee side, it's kind of small.

Little ThunderWhere did you go to school?

Frejo I went to (elementary and on up?) elementary in Oklahoma City, Shidler Elementary School, then Capitol Hill Junior High, and then Capitol Hill Senior High. Then I came to Chilocco.

Little Thunder What drew you to Chilocco?

Frejo After high school, I guess I really hadn't made any plans, and my mother 2:00decided that I needed to go somewhere where I could get more of an education because they didn't have money to send me to college or anything like that. She enrolled me in Chilocco. I didn't even know she did it, but she did. But it was good. It was a good experience up here. I came and took a trade.

Little Thunder What'd you come and study?

Frejo Studied? I studied auto mechanics. I was in auto mechanics for two years, '61 and '62.

Little Thunder What was the hardest adjustment you had to make coming to Chilocco?

Frejo In the beginning, it was being away from home. I guess that's the first time I've really been away from home. I can remember going into my room and meeting my roommates. I think just being away from home because I'd really never experienced that before. I was a little sad at the beginning, but I adjusted pretty good. My roommates were pretty good.

Little ThunderWhere were they from?

Frejo One was a Creek. He was from, I think, Henryetta, Sidney Lee. The other one was a--Kenneth Callahan. He was from out west. I don't remember what tribe he was.

Little Thunder What was one of the easiest adjustments at Chilocco?

Frejo I think one of the easiest ones was since I did come from the white side of society, coming to Oklahoma City, (I was going to school in Oklahoma City), coming to an all Indian school, that was really a good adjustment for me. It kind of really brought me out because I was pretty shy at school, high school. I came over here, and everybody's Indian. I liked that. I really adjusted good. It was really neat being around all the different tribes here in Chilocco.

Little Thunder Who were some of the instructors that stood out for you?

Frejo We only had one: Mr. [Louis] Thompson. Yeah, Mr. Thompson.

Little Thunder All your classes were under him?

Frejo Yeah, under him, and Mr. [Billy Joe] Dye was his assistant teacher in auto mechanics.

Little Thunder What was one of the most memorable things you worked on in auto mechanics, or the most memorable time you had working?

Frejo I think it was probably working on the teachers' cars because we would service them, take care of them for them. That was pretty neat. Sometimes when they would come, when we'd work on them, they'd come down, pick them up, they'd give us a little money, a little change, and that was great. Other than that, we worked on all the school buses and government cars that we had around here.

Little Thunder Did you enlist and sign up for the National Guard at the same time that you were taking auto mechanics?

Frejo Yes, I think it was--I joined up my first year, '61. I think it was 5:00probably around June of '61. I joined up mainly because--you want me to answer that?

Little ThunderYes.

Frejo We didn't have any money up here, so one of the deals is they were telling us, "If you join up, you get a check once a month," because your ten drills, once a month for the weekend, do drills. A little extra spending money, that's one of the main reasons that I joined up, really.

Little Thunder How many were in the National Guard unit here when you joined up? Do you remember, approximately?

Frejo It was probably, looked like, if I remember right, somewhere around three squads, which was probably around maybe about sixty. I guess something like that. It seemed like there was three squads. I remember us lining up. Something like that.

Little Thunder So what kinds of exercises did you do in terms of training?

Frejo We would go up to the armory, and we'd do drills, close order drills, attention, and present arms, and all that. I think we did some marching, too, if I remember right. I know we did close--. One of the things that kind of stuck out is the bayonet training.

Little Thunder Bayonet training?

Frejo It was kind of neat but also a little scary, I guess. You did it because you were trying to hit somebody with the bayonet, hit him with the butt of the rifle. Three moves: jab, pull out, swing your rifle up, hit them in the chin. If that didn't work, hit them straight ahead with the butt of the rifle, and then come down with the bayonet, like in a slicing move. That was kind of, I don't know, a little bit hairy for me.

Little Thunder Right. No room for wrong moves on that. Did you go on and do 7:00anything with the National Guard after that?

Frejo No, after I left here in Chilocco in '62, I went to Oklahoma City, back home to Oklahoma City. I joined the unit up there, and it was supply and transportation. It wasn't infantry unit like here. All of my training was infantry when I went to Fort Jackson. Both basic trainings was infantry for everybody. AIT, advanced [individual] training was the second stage, and then when I went back to Oklahoma City, we were supply and transportation, mainly setting up showers and supplies for the troops out in the field.

Little Thunder I see. The training that you'd done, did you say at Fort Bragg?

Frejo Fort Jackson, South Carolina.

Little Thunder Fort Jackson, I'm sorry. Yeah, South Carolina. What was that like? That was boot camp? Was it sort of basic boot camp?

Frejo That was basic training. I remember when I first got there, I remember going there. About fifteen or twenty of us joined up that time--

Little Thunder From Chilocco?

Frejo ...from Chilocco, and then we all rode the train. We all boarded a bus, and they took us to Tulsa. At Tulsa, we got a train and went all the way up to Cincinnati, Ohio, and then went back south to South Carolina. I remember that trip there because we were all in that train.

Little Thunder That's a long trip.

Frejo They had sack lunches for us along the way. I remember we had a buck sergeant, I think. I can't remember his name. I thought I'd never forget his name because he was at the reception center, and he was all spit-and-polished.

Little Thunder Did you have sleeping quarters on the train, or did you just--

Frejo No.

Little Thunder Yeah, you just slept in the seat--

Frejo We just slept in the seats.

Little Thunder --in new parts of the country you hadn't seen before.

FrejoBoy, that's for sure. One of the things I remember is when we were going, when we went to Cincinnati we had a layover. About four or five of us walked to town, walked to the city. (Laughs) As we were walking, we went through the low income area. One of the ladies come up there, "Where you guys from?" We said, "We're from Oklahoma." "What are you?" Said, "Indians." "You need to be careful walking through this neighborhood." When we got downtown, when we got there, you know, we all rode the bus back to the train station. That was one incident.

Little Thunder So at Fort Jackson, what was the hardest part of basic training?

Frejo Because I had training here at Chilocco, close order drills and all that with a weapon, and marching, and stuff like that, I didn't have too much trouble 10:00adapting to that. Let's see. I guess it was discipline. We were up early, getting ready, shaving every day, which I didn't do today, (Laughter) and then getting ready, and then go out in the field every day, go out for some training, whether it was field training, rifle training. Every day we would go out training and come back in the evening and clean the barracks. We cleaned the barracks in the morning. Come back in the evening, and then we'd shave and shower and get ready for bed. Then wake up the next day and do the same thing over again. It was pretty good discipline, I mean, for me anyway.

Little ThunderDo you remember any of the instructors? Anybody stand out?

Frejo Sergeant Evans, he was a black sergeant. He had real slow talking. It seemed like he always had a chaw of tobacco in his mouth or something because, "All right, you troops, get ready to go out in the field now." Had something in 11:00his mouth. (Laughter) Sergeant Evans, I remember him, and then I remember another sergeant, the First Sergeant of the company. He was a short, little guy, but he was all spit-and-polished too. I remember when I first got off the bus going to our assigned company, they were all in our face, boy, I tell you. Standing right in front, about this far from our face, telling us, "What's the matter with you? Look at you! You look sloppy! We're going to make something out of you, son!" That was really a surprise, but they were pretty tough. That was in '61 and '62.

Little ThunderDid you get to go off base at all during basic?

Frejo At basic we didn't. I take that back. I think we did get to go one time about the end of basic training. I think we did get to go one or two times. I 12:00think one of the things I remember because--and I know some of the other guys, (maybe you interviewed them) maybe they can remember. This was '61 when we all went, there was about twenty or twenty-five of us. I remember we went to town one time, A Company, 8th Battalion, "No sweat, Sir." That was our saying. When we'd stand up when we'd go out to training. We'd all stand up, and then you say, "Ready seats!" Sergeant says, "Ready seats!" Then everybody'd say, "A Company, 8th Battalion, no sweat, Sir!" Then we sat down. We went to town time, and one of our guys got into a little scrap with another guy from, I think they might've been Puerto Ricans, on the bus coming back.

When we got back to the area, they came looking for us at the company area. I got up and went out there; a bunch of us went out there. They left after a little bit. A couple of times, and I don't know why, but it seems like there was Puerto Ricans. We did get off the bus one time, and we got into a little shoving 13:00match with one of them. We went to their little ice cream stand that was on base. We were sitting there eating, and I said, "We need to go back to the barracks, man. They're going to come looking for us." And they did. There was a little squabble out there in the parking lot. I remember that. I don't know good or bad, but it happened. We was drinking beer. That's one of the things, I think, that probably instigated everything at the beginning, and they were, too.

Little Thunder Where did you go after that?

Frejo I went to basic training there, and then I went to AIT, advanced [individual] training, there. We just moved a company down the hill there somewhere.

Little Thunder Oh, same place, at Fort Jackson, AIT.

FrejoSame place, but it was just different barracks and stuff like that.

Little Thunder Right. What do you remember about AIT?

Frejo I do remember we were taking specialized training, throwing a grenade and stuff like that, you know, and a rocket launcher, and a BAR, Browning Automatic 14:00Rifle, and machine gun, .30 caliber machine gun, and shooting a pistol. All those different weapons we had training on. I do have an incident. I don't know if I need to tell it; maybe might edit it out later. We had a lot of southern boys in our outfit. We had a lot of black guys in our outfit, too, and we were Indians that were there, about twenty or thirty of us. We came back one time from town, (this was in advanced training) and there was this white guy and this black guy that were out in front of the barracks. One guy, the white guy, was really going on this black guy. The black guy was pretty husky and everything like that. There was about two blacks and two white guys. I do remember I was walking up, and I remember this white guy saying, "You know, where I come from, you guys don't even walk on the same side of the street as us!" I tell you what surprised me: The black guy just stood there and took it. That was the ʼ60s. 15:00That really surprised me. I think I might have helped break them up a little bit, but that was really something else. I never seen that in Oklahoma. I think it probably happened, but that's the first actual thing I seen.

Little Thunder Right. What skills do you think you brought with you from Chilocco that helped you both with basic and AIT?

Frejo I think taking care of myself, taking care of my clothes, washing my clothes, and just being in a day-to-day dormitory setting like it is in the military since it's dormitory setting and all that, and getting along with people that were in your same dorm or in the same barracks. I think that was helpful. Plus, the training that we got at the armory, there forward, going to basic training and at AIT, I think those things all helped me out because I 16:00did--. They have guard duty. You stand out there, and there was about six or seven of us. We do general orders. The sergeant of the Guard would ask, "What's your first general order?" Then we'd tell him what it was. "What's your second?" Then they'd tell him. They'd inspect our weapons. I remember one time I was standing tall, and I remember I got Colonel's Orderly. That's, I guess, a plus deal because I got a three-day pass out of it. I was kind of proud of that.

Little Thunder What did you do? Where'd you go on your pass?

Frejo I went to town, Columbia, South Carolina.

Little Thunder That's the closest town--

Frejo Yeah--

Little Thunder --to Fort Jackson?

Frejo --biggest town. I don't remember if that was it or not, but I think at that time they had something going on where the people in town would sponsor a 17:00soldier. You'd go stay in their house and eat supper with them, just kind of be friends. I remember going to some person's house, their family and everything. I think I did it at that time when I got the Colonel's Orderly.

Little Thunder Did you enjoy that experience?

Frejo I enjoyed it somewhat. To be honest with you, it seemed like they were trying to do something nice for the troops. They were. Maybe I didn't appreciate it enough like as I should have. I think I remember I couldn't wait to leave. (Laughter) That's bad isn't it? That's bad.

Little Thunder So what happened after you got out of the service--

Frejo Let's see. I went back to--.

Little Thunder --out of the National Guard?

Frejo After six months' active duty, probably about five and a half, something like that, I went back to Oklahoma City. Went to work. Can I tell you something 18:00funny about when I was in the military?

Little Thunder Yes!

Frejo Okay, at that time they had some kind of program going, Rainbow or Rainbow Challenge or something like that. This is kind of bad. The sergeant got us all out there one time. He said, "Okay, you guys need to save your stuff and be cautious of what you use up because things don't just come. They're paid for. When you use some toilet paper, what I want you to do is take that toilet paper, take one piece of it, a square, tear it off, fold it into quarters, and that one end that has all the quarters in it, tear that off. Don't throw that away. Put that on the side, and take that toilet paper and unfold it. When you wipe your 19:00butt, stick your finger through that hole and then wipe your butt. Then you use that other piece of paper that you had leftover to clean out underneath your fingernail. Take the other part of the toilet paper and just kind of wipe your finger off. Take that other part, that little part, to clean out from under your fingernail." That was something that was kind of neat I remembered quite a bit. (Laughter)

Little Thunder Yeah. (Laughs)

Frejo But that's what they did. They told all of us. I think everybody on the base got that training to be frugal with toilet paper. (Laughter)

Little Thunder Oh, wow, crazy. So after your active duty, you went back to Oklahoma City.

Frejo Went back to Oklahoma City. That was probably '61. I went to work for Western Electric. Worked there for a few years, and then I went back to school in '64 to college at Central State. After that, got married in '65.

Little Thunder What'd you study at Central State?

Frejo Pre-engineering. I only did two semesters, I think. Dropped out. That was my field, and I kind of got into that field after that.

Little Thunder And so worked in engineering and construction?

Frejo Yeah, engineering drawings. Mainly structural steel buildings. After that I got married, and then I went back to school again after that to Oklahoma State Tech at Okmulgee, me and my wife, Pat. Then I took drafting and design over there, so that was kind of in the field that I was doing anyway as pre-engineering. After that two years, went year-round for two years, tri-semester. Got that done, went back out in the field, out in private 21:00industry, and started working that field ever since. I went to work for a couple of places and then finally went to work for the federal government as an engineering draftsman. Stayed in the federal government until I retired a few years ago.

Little Thunder Neat. So are you a member of any Native veterans groups?

Frejo Veterans other than--.

Little Thunder Other than the Chilocco group.

Frejo Oh, Pawnee Veterans, I guess. I kind of stay affiliated with them because they have a powwow every year, Dawn of the Veterans, Pawnee veterans, and other veterans, also, white and anybody that's a veteran.

Little ThunderWhy are the Chilocco reunions important to you?

Frejo When I went to Chilocco, that was really a neat experience for me because, like I said, I've been around white kids and some Mexicans and a few Indians at Capitol Hill High School, being around that atmosphere, but when I came to 22:00Chilocco it was all Indians, all over the place: Siouxs, Navajos, Lakotas, Creeks, Cherokees, all those different tribes. That was one of the things that really impressed me, and I felt so at home here. I felt so at home, kind of like my village. It was here for two years. My best one, my best friend was a Shoshone-Bannock, Norbert Jim. My other one was Mescalero Apache; his name was Gilbert Balatche. Then a Creek guy named Wesley Taylor. He was from--Wetumka, I think. Those are my, probably, three best friends when I was here, Norbert and 23:00the other ones that I said, Norbert, Gilbert, and Wesley, Wesley Taylor. They were my good friends. They were all in auto mechanics, too. We had some Eskimos from Alaska, too. That was really neat. They were in auto mechanics, too, postgrads.

Little Thunder How about when Chilocco veterans get together? Why is that important to you?

Frejo I think it's because probably--you have all the other organizations that are non-Indian. They have events, things going on, that they do. With Chilocco veterans--I just saw one of my buddies that was in with me, Jim Greenfeather. I just saw him while ago. We can kind of reflect a little bit. Those that I know that were in at the same time, that's good to be around those guys. Some of 24:00these guys I don't have really anything to share with them other than the ones I was in with. "Hey, you remember when we went to this, and when we did that, and all that," when we was in the military. That's one thing, I think: the comradery of the ones that I know, and the comradery of the ones that I then served with, but served, also.

Little Thunder Can you talk a little bit about the role veterans play in Indian country?

Frejo I think that they are--that's one of the big deals about the Indian tribes is they honor the warriors. I think that's one of the things is that the veterans organization, Chilocco Indian veterans, we're honored. It's good to be honored. Sometimes I think a little bit for myself, maybe a little bit too much, but I'm proud of that service that I did.

Little Thunder What would you like people to know or remember from your story, or even about Chilocco in general?

Frejo I think the times that I was here, the friends that I made, the young lady friends that I met--. I was thinking about this on the way up. It seemed like it was a village. It was a village, and it was good. I was thinking, as we say in the old days, you are your own tribe. They're all there in that one area, in that one tribe. When you come up here, we were all Indians, different tribes, but it seemed to me like it was one tribe, all Indians. That was good. That was good for me because there wasn't, really we didn't--. I thought of their tribal 26:00affiliations, but I didn't think of them as somebody different. I thought of them as just another Indian friend. I like that. That's good. I'm kind of sad that the campus is going downhill, and I wish there was some way we could keep it up. It's up to the tribes that own the area. I think we tried to get that armory a couple of times. I don't know how that's went. Thinking about that on the way up here today, how we could get some funds to do a feasibility study to make that armory into maybe a place where we could meet. Maybe, maybe not.

Little Thunder Yeah, there's some work to be done. I think there's a good group that wants to do that, too. I'm hoping that happens, as well. Is there anything else we should talk about that we didn't cover?

Frejo When I would go back to Oklahoma City during the summertime and all that, I would think about up here. It was such a unique feeling, so unique for me to be around Indians like that. I've talked about that before, and I'm sure other people had the same feeling. It was just a unique feeling that I had being here and after I left, of just being part of the Chilocco classes that came through. I know we got a lot of different classes, but my class was special, '60, '61. I knew all those people, mainly the young people because I was a postgrad and I met a lot of the high-schoolers and all that. Had a lot of different lady friends that were friends. That was good.

Little Thunder You didn't feel like you were too old for them?

Frejo No, I was eighteen, I guess, when I got here. I wasn't too much older than what the other kids were. As I think back, I think about walking into my room. First time I walked in there, I remember trying to be a little bossy. I remember walking in, and somebody had put their--I had put my bag or something like that on the bottom bunk. Somebody else had come in there and put their stuff on the bottom bunk. I remember saying, "I think I got here first. The bottom bunk's mine." They said, "Okay!" No big deal. I think I was ready to be verbally possessive of that bottom bunk, but it was okay. They said, "Okay." That was Kenneth Callahan. I remember him saying that. Other than that, I think just 29:00being here, and a beautiful campus, wintertime, snow on the ground, summertime, fall coming, the leaves all turning, having that fish pond out there. That was beautiful. I lived in Home Six. That was where the postgrads mainly stayed, Home Six. I do think one of the things is I was in there during the Vietnam era. I didn't make it over there. Can I share one more thing?

Little Thunder Yes.

Frejo Okay, one of the things is the Vietnam era. When it came on, I didn't even think--when I joined up, I never thought about going to war or going to shoot somebody or anything like that. When I joined up, I mainly did it really, to be honest, for a little extra money up here because we were poor and didn't have a lot of money. I remember thinking afterwards, a long time afterwards, during the Vietnam War how all those boys were getting--. Every time I'd go home in the 30:00evening, I'd see the evening news always covering that Vietnam War, da-da-da-da-da. The main thing I remember is that whirl of that helicopter, ch-ch-ch-ch-ch, going like that, and then seeing all those young men. I'm so fortunate I didn't have to be called up and go over there. I'm so fortunate because--I don't know. I think back after that, after that all passed. I thought if they'd have called me up, I would've went, but I don't know if I could have 31:00shot somebody.

I've asked some people about that. They said, "Al, if it come down to you and them, you'd have shot somebody," but I don't think I'd have liked it. I'm proud that I served, even though I don't know if I'd have been able to do that. Probably tried to apply for some kind of a home deal or something like that. I do know I remember that, thinking about that. Even to this day I don't think I could, unless they were trying to kill me, which war is. That's just another thought that I've thought about since then, being in the military. Go into the military a lot of times to kill somebody. There's a lot of other stuff that you--supply and transportation, like the one unit I was, to supply the troops, fire artillery. I think ground troops is killing people, and that would've been 32:00hard for me to do. I don't think I could've done it, but I don't know. It didn't happen, so I think probably, come down to it, I probably would have, even though I probably would've hated it. Anyway, that's probably about it.

Little Thunder Thank you. Thank you, Alfred, for sharing that.

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