Oral history interview with Amos Harjo Jr.

Little Thunder My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder with the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University, and I'm interviewing Amos Harjo Jr. for the Chilocco Alumni Association here at Chilocco Indian School outside of Newkirk, Oklahoma. Amos, you were a staff sergeant with the 173rd Brigade, and your wife, Michelle, is here, too. She may be adding some stories to the interview. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Harjo I'm glad to be here today.

Little Thunder Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Harjo I was born in Holdenville, Oklahoma, and I grew up in Calvin. Boarding school, Carter Seminary of Ardmore and here at Chilocco. Then the military came along.

Little Thunder What did your folks do for a living?

Harjo Both are deceased.

Little Thunder Were you raised by grandparents a little bit?

Harjo Oh, when I was--.

Little Thunder Way back.

Harjo --way back then, okay. What did they do?

Little Thunder Yes.

Harjo My stepdad was a farmer, and my mom was a home mom.

Little Thunder Do you have any brothers or sisters?

Harjo A bunch. At one time there was probably thirteen. Then the set of twins passed on. Then another one later on, and many more later.

Little Thunder Were you kind of one of the older ones?

Harjo I was the third to the oldest, and my older sister passed away just about a year ago July. My brother, oldest brother, passed away about twenty-nine years ago. My younger brother passed away about five years ago. Seven. It's been about seven. Anyway, it's been--.

Little Thunder Lots of siblings.

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder So were you around Creek language and culture growing up?

Harjo No. I remember when we was going to school, boarding school, they didn't allow that. My mom was pretty upset with me one day. Somebody talked to me in Creek, and I said, "I don't understand." My mom disagreed. Said, "You do, too." I said, "Nope. You sent me away from home," like third grade or so, and they didn't allow it. A lot of them did it, but I never did learn my language. Just the important ones.

Little Thunder Yes. (Laughs) So what was one of the hardest adjustments you had to make in third grade, I guess, going to boarding school?

Harjo Not that much really because we went to public school.

Little Thunder Oh, you went to public school there. Okay.

Harjo That was that way up until the ninth grade, and then once we come here--.

Little Thunder Come to Chilocco, okay.

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder What was one of the hardest adjustments you had to make here at Chilocco?

Harjo None at all. Didn't want to go home once you got here. (Laughs)

Little Thunder Good feeling.

Harjo Yeah, a lot of good friends.

Little Thunder Did you come by yourself? Was there anybody else in your family that came or--

Harjo Yeah, I had my older brother and older sister. Was the younger brother.

Little Thunder Were already here, the older ones.

Harjo Yeah, the older ones were already here by the time I got here, and then my younger ones came up after I left.

Little Thunder What did you want to focus on when you were here, in your studies?

Harjo My vocational at that time was masonry. In this building over here that 4:00you seen when you come in, (that door is falling in) at that one just above the doorway, we had to do some patchwork up there. We was on the scaffolds, and as I would look down, the kids were changing classes. I'd move some of that mortar over to the side, and when they'd come out, I'd tap it and let it fall down on them. (Laughter) That was kind of funny, funny for me, not for them.

Little Thunder Funny for you, not for them. What's, maybe, another fun experience at Chilocco that kind of stands out for you?

Harjo Kind of funny?

Little Thunder Funny or fun.

Harjo Not so funny, but I remember there was one night a bunch of the students from around Newkirk came up and invaded our football field, and it was the first 5:00time that, seemed like, the school was united. We went down there and did some damage, got them off the property.

Little Thunder Chased them off, huh?

Harjo That was fun to us. (Laughter)

Little Thunder That's right. How about the food? How was the food here?

Harjo I liked it. I had no complaint. You could get all you want. I used to go to the milk counter and drink about four glasses of milk, and then get two more to go to the table. It was all right. I never had no complaint.

Little Thunder Was there any instructors here that stand out for you, any of the instructors at Chilocco?

Harjo Coach [Kenneth] Moore, he was the main one, and Coach [Doyle] Presley.

Little Thunder Did you play football when you were here?

Harjo Yeah. Then my favorite teacher was a lady called Melva Jo Tooahimpah. She took care of me. In her classroom, I sat here, and her desk would be right here to my left, and her purse would be sitting close. I'd just get in there and get me some change. My buddies seen me do it, and they come back to try it. She said, "What are you doing?" They said, "Getting some money for the canteen." She said, "You put that back." They said, "Well, Amos--." She said, "That's Amos." I had me a twenty-dollar bill, and they didn't have nothing.

Little Thunder What did she teach?

Harjo English.

Little Thunder She watched out for you.

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder What level of school were you in when you enlisted? Did you 7:00enlist, or did you get drafted?

Harjo First two years, I volunteered draft. It's almost like--I wasn't drafted. I volunteered draft, two years.

Little Thunder Was it with the National Guard here at Chilocco?

Harjo No, regular Army.

Little Thunder Regular Army, you volunteered the first two years. Had you graduated from Chilocco already?

Harjo I got my GED in the Army, so I was in the eleventh when I went. Then I got my diploma through the Army. Took a lot of years because I was always moving, but I got it anyway. Finally got it before I got out.

Little Thunder That's great.

Michelle Harjo Can I say one thing? He was from-- my husband was very athletic. 8:00He liked track.

Little Thunder Oh, so you did track as well, track, football?

Harjo Baseball.

Little Thunder Anything else? Baseball, okay, all around. What made you decide to volunteer?

Harjo Volunteer? Work. I didn't like to work at home because all that was farming, and I didn't want--. Those peanut fields, it's hard. Mucking hay was hard--

Little Thunder Hard work.

Harjo --so I said, "I'll go to the military. It's a lot easier." To me it was. (Laughter)

Little Thunder How did your background at Chilocco help prepare you for military service?

Harjo Condition, for me, because I was in track. There's a two-mile track, south, all the way around, two miles, so that was a total of eight miles. Then 9:00when we come in right here by the cafeteria, we'd just pull in there. They'd stay open for us track boys, so we'd go and eat. That's mainly one reason--. I was doing something physical. It wasn't hard to blend in, once I got in the military, to be able to stay up with everybody.

Little Thunder Right, right. So where were you when you got your draft notice?

Harjo I didn't get no draft notice. I volunteered draft. I just went into the recruit and said, "I want to join up." They said, "Why?" I said, "Two years." They said, "That'd be volunteer draft." I said, "Okay, I volunteer."

Little Thunder And then after that did you just renew, or--

Harjo After that, let me think. I got out of the service, and I went back home 10:00and still nothing there. I went to the recruiter in Ada. We talked, and he said, "We got this thing that we're putting together for the--. They're asking for fifty volunteers from Oklahoma to go airborne, and they'll be made up or called the Sooner Airborne Platoon. Would you like to be a part of it?" I said, "Might as well. I'm scared of heights, but I'll try it." (Laughter) I mean once I went back in my second tour, I had to go through basic again at Fort Bliss, Texas, and then I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana, for AIT [Advanced Individual Training]. 11:00Then went on to jump school. No, I went to NCO [noncommissioned officer] school at Fort Benning, Georgia, and then to jump school, and then ranger training. Then we went to Fort Gordon, Georgia. That's where I met her. We pushed troops almost like a drill sergeant there at Fort Gordon, Georgia. It was for eight weeks. Then from there we got orders to go to Vietnam again, and that's when I became a member of the 101st Airborne Division.

Little Thunder Okay, well we'll go back, maybe, to your first basic training real quick. What was the biggest challenge that you ran into first time you did 12:00basic, when you volunteered?

Harjo Okay, that was with--my basic?

Little Thunder Just your basic training the first time you volunteered for the Army and they sent you to basic training.

Harjo Basic training, it was a breeze. It was nothing hard.

Little Thunder Because you were so conditioned.

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder Do you remember any of the officers or instructors you had that stood out?

Harjo No.

Little Thunder Then after that, you had all of this additional--. Talk to maybe a little bit about once you joined the Airborne you had to do basic at Fort Bliss. Were there any challenges you encountered there?

Harjo Still in good shape. (Laughter)

Little Thunder AIT, what did you specialize in in Louisiana?

Harjo Infantry, 11 Bravo (11B) they called it, 11 Bravo.

Little Thunder Okay. Were there many other Indian soldiers in that group?

Harjo The way I understand it, they didn't want to get too many Indians in one outfit. They said--. (Laughter)

Little Thunder Afraid they'd show everybody else up. (Laughs)

Harjo They said, "They kind of crazy when they get too many together," so everywhere I went, it seemed like I was the only Indian. They said, "We glad we just got one." (Laughs) You know what I mean.

Little Thunder Yeah, yeah. NCO training you did at Fort Benning. Is there any standout memories you have of that?

Harjo Let's see, ranger training. The only thing I can remember about that was once we went to that river crossing, and it was during the winter. Ice was floating down the river, and we had to cross it with our clothes on. Coming back 14:00across, we come back with just our shorts on, with our clothes wrapped up in our poncho, and bring it back across. If you survived that, you had it. The rest of it was easy, but just getting there and back was something. Then let's see--.

Little Thunder How about jump school? Since you weren't crazy about heights anyway, what was jump school like?

Harjo It was a challenge. They almost had to throw me out up there. I almost pulled one of the jump masters out. That tower, when they say, "Go," I reached back. Luckily, he was strapped on, so I couldn't pull him out. They were going to get me to--. When I went back to base, they said, "Send him back up." I went up before everybody, and they've got more sergeants up in there. They said, 15:00"We'll get him." There was a sergeant down below where I first started. His name was Harjo, so he called me over and talked to me. He said, "They waiting for you up there. I'm going to tell you, it's not hard. You get to the gate; I'm going to get to the door. That sergeant will tell you to sound off, you sound off with your name and your number on your hat. Then he'll say, 'Go,' and you just leap out." When he said that, that's all did. That's all I think. I did what he said, and I left them guys. They thought they was going to have fun and throw me out, but messed them up. (Laughs)

Little Thunder You ruined their plan. So you were jumping out and then pulling that cord, I guess, that parachute cord?

Harjo We hook up. Once we start making our first jump, we hooked up.

Little Thunder I see.

Harjo We always hooked up. Then once you went out, they'd pull a chute out. I landed, my first jump, I sprung my ankle. They said, "Well, you can get 16:00recycled. Heal up and recycle." I said, "No. I'm going to go through it." I had to stay up with them because we ran just about everywhere we went. They said, "If you don't make it, you're going to be recycled now." I didn't stay up with them, but I didn't drop back.

Little Thunder But you hung in with a sprained ankle, wow.

Harjo I had to more or less jump with one leg when I landed. I was supposed to make six jumps. I made five jumps, but I made six because on one of my jumps I landed on top of somebody's chute. That guy looked up at me. I was looking through that apex hole. He said, "Get off of my chute!" My chute was collapsing his chute, so I had to crawl over. I looked down, and I had to jump again.

Little Thunder Oh, my gosh.

Harjo Then I went, "Whew," because my chute was going this was way, and then when I went that way, had to inflate again. That was something, but that wasn't 17:00the only time it happened. Later on during my jumping, I did it again, so I was always getting two jumps in somewhere. (Laughs)

Little Thunder So this was, that was from the plane, right?

Harjo Airplane, yeah.

Little Thunder Yeah, wow.

Harjo But I still didn't overcome it. I was still scared of heights, but I still jumped.

Little Thunder That's what they say courage is, right? Courage is when you are afraid and you still do it. Tell me about meeting Michelle at Fort Gordon?

Harjo We had a friend; his name was Joe Kelly from here in Oklahoma down where the Wewoka Seminole--.

M. Harjo Bowlegs.

Harjo Bowlegs. Anyway, I got to know him. His company was right across from us, and somehow or another we got to talking. Then he asked me--he was going to come 18:00by and get me when we was having a meal at his house. She was there helping him with his kids. Plus, she was going to school there in Georgia. That's how we met.

Little Thunder That's how you got acquainted. I was wondering if Michelle had been affiliated with the military, but, okay, that's neat. What did you guys do for entertainment when you went off base? Had you ever been in Georgia before?

Harjo Yeah, I went there once for my--I think it was another one of my trips to there for AIT training.

Little Thunder Another training. Going off base, what impressions did it make on you?

Harjo They didn't want us there. We was too mean. (Laughter) We weren't no good.

Little Thunder Man.

Harjo Even in Vietnam, some of those posts, they see us coming up, the 173rd. They see your patch, and they see that it's the 173rd, they'll close the gates because we were going on the Air Force base. Once they see that, they close up. Said, "No--not here."

Little Thunder So was that just the reputation that paratroopers had?

Harjo Yeah, they get rowdy. Knowing that the Air Force got easy jobs, you call them wimps. Then once they get to feeling good, they want to whip up on them, and so they said, "Yeah, you guys can't come and do that. No, our general don't want y'all here. Go down the road. We'll bring it to you."

Little Thunder Wow, that's amazing. So you mentioned returning, I think you said, going back to Vietnam. Tell me when you first went.

Harjo My first tour was with the HAWK [Homing All the Way Killer] missile unit out of Fort Bliss, Texas. During that tour, that was during my first two years of service, so I'm--.

Little Thunder So the war was already going on.

Harjo Yes, and after my two years were up, I went on ahead and got out. I stayed out for maybe less than a year. That's when the 101st Airborne come up. I was in one outfit--with the 101st and then 101st, 17th Cav[alry] Air Rifle, A Troop 21:00coming out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky. I was asked if I would like to--or I was directed to. They didn't ask. They said, "You going because they need sergeants there that's old and that's been out and been here a while."

Little Thunder And had some experience.

Harjo Help train them, yeah. They was coming into the country, and they was going to train for two months. There was a lot of us old-timers that took over each squad, so we took them out. Supposed to have been two months, and we finished training in one month, us. They said, "Okay, these guys are ready to go. I don't know about them others. They're not getting a good rating, so they're going to have to go two months. But these people are ready to go."

Little Thunder That were under your command, you were training.

Harjo Once they gave that out, it wasn't long after that that they got one of the biggest orders of my career there. These guys hadn't ever seen combat, and they were so gung-ho that--. It was getting dark, and there was an element on the mountain. They were down to, like, six men. They said, "If we don't come, we may not be here in the morning." The chopper pilot said, "Y'all go back and check with your squad. See what they want to do." They all said, "Let's go," so I said, "Okay." It was getting dark, so he said, "I'm going to have to take--. It's going to be pitch black. They going to guide me in. Once it gets so low, I'm going to have to tell you to jump." That ended up being called Hamburger Hill. This was A Shau Valley that we went into. It was one of the biggest ones. 23:00There was some big ones, but that was the one that I was involved with, with the Hamburger Hill situation.

During that exercise, I had ten men in my squad that I was responsible for. Out of all of us, I was the only one that come out that wasn't wounded, and I never can understand it. Here I was the biggest guy in the squad, up front. Two guys in front of me got it, and the rest of them back to the right of me, they all got hit. I tell Michelle and others, I said, "There was a little tree right in front of me, about so high." To this day I can still see that little tree. It 24:00was getting shot in half, and them bullets kicking up right in front of me. I looked to my left because I knew the dirt was hit. I looked, and I could see those muzzle flashes coming out from the tree line there, about from here to the window. My weapon was empty, so I got my RTO's [radiotelephone operator] weapon.

I turned it and put it on automatic. I sprayed that area where they was coming from. I didn't hear no more, so I gave him his rifle back and got mine. I think at that time, the sergeant that was supposed to have been in charge of that squad, I was just there as an assistant to help guide them. He never would come forward. I kept telling him, "This is your squad now. You come up here and tell these guys.--" He said, "I ain't coming up. I'm too short. I'm getting out when 25:00I get out of this. I'm going to put in my retirement papers. I don't want no more of this." He'd never been in combat, so.... He didn't want to come up and take control of his squad, so I just went on ahead.

Little Thunder You had to do it.

Harjo I sent them all out. I was telling her, I said, "I had to get my radio operator and put him on my back, and I crawled out." Those bullets--

Little Thunder Because he was wounded.

Harjo --I could still, as I crawled out, see bullets kicking up. I said, "Oh, man, I hope they don't come zero in." I was lucky they were bad shots. I'm thankful for that. (Laughs) Out of that little situation I went back, got all 26:00the guys medevacked, and then they sent another squad up. They said, "Sergeant Harjo, you're going to take them up." I said, "They got a squad leader!" He said, "Yeah, but they don't know where they're at. You do." I said, "I don't know about that." He said, "Are you refusing to go up?" I said, "I'm not refusing. I just don't want to go up." My buddy, he said, "Harjo, take us up. Get us out of sight of him. Then I'll take my squad on up. You just tell me how far up we got to go." I said, "It's not far. He heard it." He said, "I know." I took them up there, and I said, "You go right up here and then right around the corner. They're going to be there; they ain't gone." Sure enough, they was waiting for them. Out of that, got everybody out, and they called in a big element, another battalion. They come and relieved us. That mainly was our main 27:00job, to go in and maintain contact until we get relieved by a big company. We were just operating as a forty-man team in four squads. Once they come in--.

Little Thunder And coming in by air.

Harjo Yeah. Once they come in and came up to where we were, we went down to the chopper pad and loaded up, and they took us back to our base camp. All through that, we never lost anybody. Nobody was killed. A lot wounded. The element that came in to relieve us, they was calling us names. "Wimp," and, "What's the matter? Y'all can't handle it?" That wasn't our job. We was supposed to make contact and maintain contact until we were relieved. I said, "It's yours."

Little Thunder And you had come in first.

Harjo Yeah. On our chopper going back, we was listening to our radio, and they 28:00was already getting guys killed. That's when it really escalated to a big olʽ thing. That's why they called it Hamburger Hill, because after it was all over, you go to the top, and meat laying all over. That's why it was called Hamburger Hill.

Little Thunder And, of course, you were married at that point, so that was must've been--.

Harjo No.

Little Thunder Were you married the second tour?

Harjo No.

M. Harjo Not yet.

Little ThunderNot yet, okay. I was going to say awfully sorry for--.

Harjo It was after my third tour that we got, after my third tour was over, yeah.

Little Thunder Would you mind telling us just a little bit about the first one? I mean that was the first time you'd been to Vietnam was on a HAWK missile...

Harjo HAWK missiles, yeah.

Little Thunder --tour, right.

Harjo That wasn't much to it. We were just stationed at the--there was a missile unit that was set up to guard the air base.

Little Thunder Where was it located?

Harjo At Tan Son Nhut Air Force Base out of Saigon.

Little Thunder Okay.

Harjo That's mainly what we did. We just pulled security.

Little Thunder You didn't have to see any combat that first tour. Gosh, so for that third tour--well, let's talk a little bit. So after that Battle of Hamburger Hill, then how much more time did you have to spend on that second tour?

Harjo On my second tour after Hamburger Hill? We went back to base camp, and I had about eleven days to go before I could leave. Then it just so happened a helicopter was flying over that place, and he seen the enemy coming back in. They called us, and they said, "Okay, we got a mission in the morning. You guys 30:00go to bed." I went to my company commander, our battalion commander, and I told him the situation. I said, "I only got about ten days left." He said, "You already done enough. You're squad leader. -- Can he do it?" I said, "Well, I'll talk to him once I leave here." He said, "Okay, so now you're relieved. Don't worry about going out no more. You just stay back and enjoy it." Next morning, they got their operation order. I went and told him, "You let these other--these old sergeants, and they'll take it. Don't be the first one." What happened? He volunteered to be the first one.

He got zapped right off the bat. They were throwing grenades down the mountain. He jumped the wrong way; he jumped right on one. When that happened, my buddy 31:00was up there with him, and I thought maybe it was him that got killed. A lot of us that were getting ready to process out, we made it back to our tents and grabbed our rifles and ammo because we had another chopper going back up. They told me, they said, "It's not Sergeant Badish, but it's your squad leader that took over when you left. He's the one." He didn't listen. He wanted to be too gung-ho. He was getting ready to go to Hawaii to see his wife and baby. That's why I told him, "Don't volunteer. Don't be like me." I was single, I didn't really care, so I could take chances. I said, "You got a wife and child. You need to be careful." After that, I came back to the States, stayed a while.

Little Thunder Did you go back home?

Harjo No, I went back to North Carolina. I was with the 82nd Airborne down there. I stayed there for about almost a year. My first sergeant of our company told me, he said, "Harjo, I see in your eyes what you're going to do. Don't do it." We had the football team--for our company. He was saying they had a lot of good guys. He said, "I don't want you to go. Wait until after football season's over, and then you can go." He wasn't going to let me clear my paperwork at the company, so I went to the division headquarters and walked in. Clerk said, "What 33:00do you need?" I told him; he typed it up. He said, "Okay, you'll be getting orders in a little bit." I went back to company and just played along. Then, next thing I knew, they says, "Sergeant Harjo, First Sergeant wants to see you, and he's mad." I went back and let him chew on me. Then he said, "Okay, you got thirty days' leave. Go home, and then you can go to Vietnam."

Little Thunder What made you decide to do a third tour?

Harjo This is a different story. There was a voice telling me that, "You didn't do nothing," or, "You're going to be like your dad." He died an alcoholic and he was a deserter. That's how these voices was speaking to me. To prove them wrong, I went again. -- When I came back, it was still messing with me. I went back to 34:00my third tour. It was still there but not like it used to be because I said, "They couldn't kill me anytime during that three tours, so I was all right in a sense." But yet the enemy was still attacking me in my dreams at night. They was trying to kill me and all that.

Little Thunder I've heard stories that the Viet Cong, sometimes they really wanted to get those Native vets, soldiers, because they knew they were good, often good sharp shooters or whatever. I don't know if you had any experience with that.

Harjo Not really because they was the same color and everything. I never had no 35:00problems with them as far as--. Now, with the Viet Cong, yeah, we had problems with them in the NVA. Those people that we messed with on Hamburger Hill weren't the South Vietnamese Army. These were the ones that were special trained down from the north, those who we tangled with, so they were some well-equipped soldiers.

Little Thunder Right, that's what I meant to say, Viet Cong. They saw American Indian soldiers as a threat. Like you say, same color, same situations that were more complicated than we thought going in.

M. Harjo There are a lot of Natives who have that Oriental look, you know.

Harjo When I went back on my third tour, that was when I specifically went back 36:00because there was a sergeant that I had a fight with in North Carolina down at Fayetteville. He almost put my eye out, so I was after him. They said, "He volunteered for Vietnam." I said, "When'd he leave?" They said, "Not long, about a month or so." That's when I put my orders in. I didn't know it because when you into that repple depple [replacement depot], they call it, that's where you go in and they say, "Okay, 101st needs so many, and someone else needs so many." I was just hoping that I would get sent to the 173rd because that's where he went.

Little Thunder And you did get sent to 173rd?

Harjo Yeah. When I got there, I went around asking. They said, "Yeah, he was here." I said, "Where's he at?" My intention was I was going to get him. They said, "He got killed a couple days ago. He's gone." I said, "Here I volunteered 37:00to come over here to get him." Charlie did it for me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder Oh, my goodness.

Harjo I told you we weren't no good. (Laughs) They train you--we trained ourselves to be like that. We couldn't be going there being a little wimp. We had to be tough and strong for our men that are under us. We couldn't show no sign of weakness.

Little Thunder Right, if you were leading. Did you have enough supplies when you were over there all the time?

Harjo Yeah, always had--.

Little Thunder How about chow? How about food? You always have enough food?

Harjo Always. There was sometimes they'd take a long time to get it out to us, like on Thanksgiving. That thing's been flying around two days trying to get to where we was at, so they finally got it to us.

Little Thunder Because you were under fire?

Harjo No.

Little Thunder Oh, they just couldn't find you.

Harjo They were going other places, too, but they were still carrying our Thanksgiving food. When they brought it in one evening, we stood up, and they brought in our hot chow. Like I say, they was at it a while, so when we ate it, it tastes real good. About midnight, everybody was going out, going out. You usually have to go out in the buddy system. You have to take someone out there with you. It was like everybody was going. CO [commanding officer], even our platoon leader had to say, "You got to come get us in the morning. All my men are sick." They took us out. (Laughs) He says, "We thank the mess hall for that." It was bad. (Laughter) It was an experience.

Little Thunder Did any entertainment acts come through while you were doing your tours? Did you see any shows or--

Harjo A couple times. I can't remember who I was with, whether it was 101st or--. Might've been 101st. We seen Bob Hope come through. That's about it.

Little Thunder Did you enjoy that? Could you actually hear everything and see everything?

Harjo Yeah--. It got to a point where they had to put them far off from us because once the GIs got buzzed up and everything, they felt that those girls were acting too good for them and didn't want to talk to them. They got up on scaffolds and stuff, and they urinated on them.

Little Thunder Oh, my gosh.

Harjo So they had to rush them off, get them on a chopper, and get them out. They said, "You guys can't go no more." Them other times got wrote off. They got 40:00a show coming in, they said, "These people ain't coming."

Little Thunder Do you remember any pranks that were pulled just when you were--any jokes or pranks that guys would pull just in camp?

Harjo Pranks? This one company next to us, they had a boy from New York that was always giving this one sergeant a hard time. Somehow or another the word got out that he was scared of Indians because he said he's never seen an Indian and he's just scared. They said, "All right! We got him!" (Laughter) They went, and they come over and said, "Sergeant Harjo, we're going to be walking over to this area where this boy's at. He's scared of Indians. Just be you." When I got over 41:00there, I started raising my voice loud and looking around. I started towards him, and he started crying before I even got there. (Laughter) Then after I left, they said, "If you don't straighten up, we're going to call him back over again." He said, "No, no, no, no, please don't call him back!" (Laughter) They had his number, and he straightened up.

Little Thunder That's a great story. (Laughs) Did you ever write home at all or anything like that?

Harjo They had time--they said, "Okay, drop your family a note." The C-ration boxes was so--. Take the back of that C-ration and write your little note to your mom, and the address. Then you put "Free" on that right corner. Put "Free" on it, write the message that you're doing all right, and put it in the mail. 42:00Said they'll get it. Thing wrong with that, my sister was always seeing my letters come. It said "Free" on it, so she was sending letters somewhere, and she put "Free" on the corner. It got sent back to the box. They said, "Katy, you got to put a stamp on it." She said, "Well, Shoni don't! He just puts 'Free,' and it goes through!" (Laughter)

Little Thunder That's a great story. (Laughs)

M. HarjoI was sending him candy, chocolate. He said, "We had to drink it. It's hot over here."

HarjoWhen I opened my packages, nothing but chocolate. I opened it up to the guys, and they got it and ate a little bit.

Little Thunder Now, this was during the third tour? Is that right? You were sending chocolate. You guys hadn't got married yet, but you were dating, okay.

M. Harjo I even asked him, "Do y'all have porta-potties over there?" (Laughter)

Little Thunder Did you get to talk by phone ever?

M. Harjo Never.

Little Thunder Just by letter you communicated. On your thirty-day, the thirty days you had after the second tour, that was in South Carolina you spent those, or did you actually come back to Oklahoma during your thirty-day, between the second and the third?

Harjo Okay, on my thirty-day leave before I went back to my third tour? Yeah, I didn't have to come back. I just went straight from home to Vietnam--

Little Thunder Okay, wow.

Harjo --by way of California. I went out there and caught an airplane.

Little Thunder Took the bus to California.

Harjo Airplane out of Oklahoma City to California. The 17th Cav of the 101st, A 44:00Troop, they have their reunion about June.

Little Thunder Every June?

Harjo Yes. To this day, I haven't made it, but I got a buddy that goes to it a lot. He was like a brother to me because we went to AIT together, and then in Vietnam he was with a tank outfit. Then when they switched us over to that new battalion that come in as 17th Cav, he volunteered to be one of the squad leaders, too. I had the first squad, and he had the second squad.

Little Thunder You were back again.

Harjo But I still had to take care of him because he never seen combat. See, he was with the tank. The infantry's the one who's on foot all the time. I had to take care of him all that time. Then after I left, he wanted me to extend. He 45:00said, "Stay with me. I'm going to do six more months so I can get out." I said, "No, I'm going to go back. I'm going to take a break, and then I'll come back." During that, after I left, he got wounded six times. He says, "You should've stayed with me. I would've never got hit." To this day we haven't seen each other, so hopefully--. He said, "I'm going to come to Oklahoma, and we can spend some time together." Maybe one day I'll get to go to that reunion and see him. It's just like seeing one of my schoolmates here. I hadn't seen him since Chilocco--Wes Studi. I seen him just a while ago when we as that veterans meal.

Little Thunder Oh, you did? He's out there.

Harjo Yeah, I was able to talk to him about ten seconds. (Laughter) Anyway, we 46:00got a picture with him.

Little Thunder Yeah, I'm so glad you're going to get together with your friends. That's what I was going to ask you. Have you come to many of the Chilocco reunions?

Harjo We come about every other year, and sometimes we come but not many. I would say about four or five.

Little Thunder How about other Native American veterans groups? Do you remember any other veterans groups?

Harjo Not really. Just 17th Cav and the 173rd. They got one in Lawton, but we haven't really got together with them.

Little Thunder Why is it important to you to get together with your Chilocco schoolmates?

Harjo Just to see them because there's a lot of them that are passing on. There's one that I wanted to see. I wanted to make contact with them. They said they just passed away a couple weeks ago. I happened to go see one down in Ardmore, Charles Thompson, and I talked to him about coming to the reunion. I said, "People ask about you." He said, "I'm going to try to make it this year." He didn't make it. He died before he could come. He was pretty sick. That's mainly what I come for, just to see some of my friends and visit. Now our life is in the ministry. I'm a complete different person. I was talking to one person. He said, "I see where your wife preached so-and-so's funeral." I said, 48:00"Yeah. I've come a long way since then. I'm her backup person in the ministry." But I had to go through a lot to get where I am because the enemy was still messing with my mind. I happened to be in a camp meeting up there in Sisseton, South Dakota, when there was a veteran speaking. He said, "There are three things that the monks, when they go out to their pagodas to pray--. They pray against the GIs, that they would return home, that they wouldn't have no peace. That they would know--." What's the other one? I wrote them down.

M. Harjo Wander.

Harjo Yeah, "They would be wanderers, and they would be anger." They didn't like the authority part like polices and anyone that was authority. They didn't want to be told. They were praying that way, that they would be loners. It's true. 49:00With a lot of our Vietnam vets they are loners. We go to the reservations, and they won't listen to nobody. If you haven't been there, you can't tell them anything. We was at that meeting, and they try to talk to those veterans. "Come on in! Come on in!" They said, "No, not until he gets up there." They said, "Okay, come on up, Amos." I went up there, and I was at the pulpit and was ministering. I told them, "Come on." They come on under the tent and listened to me. They were still living in the old, listening to our oldies and that music back then. They were heavy drinkers. I told them, I says, "I did drugs but not the hard drugs, anyway." They listened, but they still needed a lot of help. The 50:00ministry, one guy up in North Dakota stills wants us to come up there. He said, "A lot of these Vietnam vets, they're old, but I still can't get through to them. If you come up, you might be able to."

Little Thunder Since you went through that and had that change. So you two got married after you came back from the third tour?

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder And it was a journey.

M. Harjo Yes. It's a process to deal with the veterans. He has come a long way. I've come a long way.

Little Thunder You've grown together. Was that really, Amos, a time that you felt like, that moment in South Dakota, is that when you felt like--

Harjo Peace?

Little Thunder --"I'm going to turn around,"? Yes.

Harjo Yeah. I was a born-again Christian, but I was still being tormented by the spirits until I went to that meeting and that guy brought everything out. Then they called me up there. I went up for prayer, and I told him what the situation was. He said, "Okay, they'll be gone now." They prayed and laid hands on me, and now my dreams are just the opposite. Where before the enemy was always chasing me and getting ready to push that bayonet through me, well, now if I have him in any dreams, it stops it, and I got them on the run. It's not so--it's easier now. (Laughter) There for a while it was like they were right there in the room with me, trying to drag me into the closet and stuff. The biggest thing that 52:00stands out is that one when I was with the 101st, A Shau Valley. I can really speak to that, and other vets that were there, too. Some was in the Marines. They came in later.

Little Thunder Oh, wow.

Harjo Yeah, I had some guys there that I went to school with in Ardmore. These were white boys. They said, "Harjo, whatever you do, don't walk point [forward man] in the morning," because they knew I walked point. I said, "Why's that?" They said, "They're not letting the point man through no more. You walk point, you might as well plan on getting a bullet. They're shooting in the stomach. May not kill you, but it's going to put you down. As long as they can get you out of the field, that's all they want." I says, "Okay." I had two guys in my squad 53:00that were old, been in country as long as I have. They said, "Okay, Harjo, here's what we'll do. I'm going to walk point for you. So-and-so's going to walk my slackman," and the slackman said, "If you walk his slack, we'll go." All three of us old-timers and then all the young guys back there, that's the way it went.

Little Thunder Taking care of them.

Harjo Yeah.

Little Thunder What would you like people to know or remember from your story? What would you like people to remember or think about from your story that you shared today?

Harjo I would like for them to really reach out to them because they're still hurting. There's a lot of them out there that don't realize that there's help there, even though we got people going around speaking. The majority of the 54:00time, they're not wanting to go nowhere except where they know where there's booze at and marijuana. By the time they get around to it, they're health is so far gone. Even today, there's vets out there, "Wow, I didn't know that. Nobody told me." That's what I would like to see get across to a lot of these Native Americans on the reservations that are having problems, that they will reach out to them. I have a buddy in South Dakota, Pine Ridge. He died of Agent Orange. He was in the Marines. I kept trying to get him to go to the VA. I said, "You qualify. You got Agent Orange; you're going to get a hundred percent."

I couldn't get him to go up there. If I was living up there, I could've got him in. I said, "You come back to Oklahoma and stay a little while. Let me work with 55:00you and get you up there and get them to contact these people that will help push your paperwork through so you can get your hundred percent. Then they're going to take care of your wife." It didn't work out. He was kind of slow on doing things like that, so he didn't. He missed out on it even though one of his doctors told his wife, "Agent Orange is the one that took him out," because he was younger than I. He was just one of those Indians that didn't want to do nothing--like that, something that was rightfully his that he didn't pursue it.

Little Thunder He didn't get to claim. Is there anything else we should talk about before we end?

Harjo No, this is easy--

Little Thunder I'm so glad.

Harjo --because it was getting hard there for a little bit, but I was able to take control of my composure and not break down. A year ago I had a teacher from the grade school bring her students up to me, out front. I had some of my Vietnam pictures out there. I told them stories about Vietnam and different things. Before you knew it, I was breaking down, I was crying--.

Little Thunder I want to thank you for your service, Amos. Thank you very much.

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