Oral history interview with Jim Baker

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, April 12, 2016. I'm interviewing Native veteran and Chilocco alumnus Dr. Jim Baker as part of the Spotlighting Oklahoma Series for the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Sarah Milligan, head of the program, is running the equipment for us. Jim, you're a Chilocco graduate and a former administrator of the school, (and that's just one of several administrative positions you held after obtaining your graduate degrees at Penn State University and Mississippi State University) but today we're hoping to focus on a fairly narrow aspect of your experiences as a Choctaw tribal member and a Chilocco veteran who served with Chilocco's Charlie Company during the Korean War. Thank you for taking the time to talk with us.

Baker: Yes.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Baker: I'm, as you mentioned, from the Choctaw country in southeastern Oklahoma. 1:00I was born in Talihina, and that's a fairly common place for southeastern Oklahoma Choctaws because of the Indian hospital located there. My home, actually, Snow, Oklahoma. If you don't know where that is located, then it is in Pushmataha County, east of Antlers, Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: I know Antlers a little bit. What did your mother and father do for a living?

Baker: I have a funny answer for that, but I'm going to try to be a little bit more professional about it. My mother was actually a homemaker, and I really 2:00don't know my father well enough to talk about his background, but let me just interject my stepfather into the picture. I grew up actually with my stepfather, and he was a lumberjack, as was most of the people in that part of the country. With the lumber industry, that is actually his background.

Little Thunder: What was your exposure to Choctaw language and culture growing up?

Baker: Of course, being a full blood, and my mother being a full blood, and my stepdad being a full blood, I was exposed to the Choctaw way of life from my earliest years. I learned the language, spoke the language, now I'm able to read 3:00and write the Choctaw language. The handicap that I might say that I have is that moving away from there and then coming to this part of the country, and then traveling across the United States, and my employment--I did not get to use the language as I would have liked to. Even here, owning a home in Stillwater and living in Stillwater since 1990, really have no one to use the language with. My first wife was a Creek Indian, she spoke her language, and yet other than exchanging a few words, we never really communicated in our tribal 4:00language. Now that she's gone and I'm remarried, still not able to use the language, so that presents a little handicap. At some point at my age, I probably will never use the language, but it's there.

Little Thunder: How did you end up going to school at Chilocco?

Baker: My story is a little different than most Chilocco students. I left high school after my freshman year, stayed away for two years and working at different places, and then roaming the country. I eventually came back after a 5:00two-year layoff from high school. My sophomore year at Clayton Public School, the kids that I grew up with and knew as freshmen were now two years ahead of me. I felt uncomfortable even though I did well, academically speaking. I felt uncomfortable. When I had the opportunity to come to Chilocco, I took advantage of it. Made an application and was approved, so I ended up at Chilocco as a junior in high school. My junior and senior year were at Chilocco. While at Chilocco, then I was able to concentrate on college prep, but they also gave me 6:00the opportunity to go ahead and select a vocation if I wanted to. I elected to take painting--house, interior, exterior decorations--.

Then, coming from southeastern Oklahoma, your family's impoverished. I had to do everything that I could to take care of my needs, my clothing, etcetera, so I joined the National Guard unit here. By joining the National Guard, I was able to provide for my own clothing, and then the vocational program that I was involved with allowed me to work in Arkansas City [Kansas] on weekends or 7:00evenings, painting houses, etcetera. This is really what kept me in school, kept me going, something that I would not have been able to do had I been in public school. I'm thankful for that. Of course, after graduating from high school, you have to find a place in life somewhere. I decided that I might as well stay with the National Guard. I was sent off for my training and eventually finished that. I had to decide then whether or not to get a job or try to go to school.

I applied back at Chilocco, and they allowed me to come back as a postgraduate. 8:00I attended Cowley County Community College, and eventually, a year and a half later, I got married. (Laughter) That sort of changed my life because then I had to go to work, but I had this desire to complete college. After working for a few years, in 1965 I went back to finish up my college degree. In 1968 I received a college degree. I thought I was through with college but decided that I would work for a while and then eventually quit working. The wife was working, 9:00had a decent job, so I pursued my graduate degree. I ended up at Penn State University. Then ended up taking a job in Mississippi. I still was not satisfied with just a graduate degree, so ended up pursuing more graduate work. Decided with technology being such a big discussion at that point in time in my life, I decided to pursue an educational technology degree.

That is how I probably got where I got because of my relentless pursuit of more 10:00training and education. Eventually, ended up going back to Chilocco as a superintendent. That in itself is quite an experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone because now you're back at your old school, you're working with your former mentors, or tormentors. I don't know how you would call it, but I ended up at Chilocco. So I made this complete circle. Probably when you look back at it, it was an experience that you would not trade for anything because now you 11:00have the opportunity to do something at the school that you got your education from and you're working with the people who trained you. Again, it's just an experience that I would not trade for anything.

Little Thunder: Going back to when you first got to Chilocco, what was one of the hardest adjustments you had to make?

Baker: I don't know that I had to make an adjustment as much as the staff had to make an adjustment because now the kid that they kicked around is now their boss. I'm sure they had to make some adjustment. Yes, instead of asking someone 12:00for something as a former student and now I'm telling that same person what I want them to do, it's probably an adjustment to both of us. It was, again, quite an experience. Often times we would poke fun about it, but the good thing is that we all basically knew each other, just a matter of digging up their strength that we could capitalize on, or my strength that we could, with their strength, make things happen. One of the managerial strategies that I took to 13:00Chilocco was find out what their strength was, and then capitalize on that and let them use their strength to get things accomplished. One of my pet sayings has always been that there's four kinds of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who keep things from happening, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened. We tried to make sure that everybody that we worked with was able to make things happen, and then we eliminated those who wondered what happened.

Little Thunder: That sounds like a great strategy. But again, just kind of going back in time, entering as a freshman because you're uncomfortable with that high 14:00school, the fact that you'd left high school back home and spent a couple years traveling and working, so you're coming into Chilocco at a young age. What was the hardest adjustment you had to make that first time coming into school?

Baker: You mean coming back as a student?

Little Thunder: Yeah, when you were just a student, high school student, and you're transferring, going to Chilocco rather than finish up in public school.

Baker: I actually just stepped in line with the culture, the school culture that was there. It was a lot easier than I had anticipated it to be. I thought that coming into Chilocco as an outsider, so to speak, that I might have to prove 15:00myself. In actuality it was a lot easier than that because the students who were already there accepted me for who I was, what I brought into the school more readily than the public school that I left. I don't know that it was because of the fact that they were Indians and I am a full-blood Indian leaving a public school where you're the minority, but it was a lot easier to make that switch. Frankly speaking, a little surprised that I was able to just fit right in. It 16:00might be because I was an athlete. As a new student I just jumped right into the football even though Clayton Public School didn't have football. I was a rather large kid, so the coach says, "As big as you are, you ought to be out there playing football." "Okay, I'll go play football." I knew basketball, I knew baseball, so it was not anything that I couldn't fit into. Yes, it was an easier adjustment than I had anticipated.

Little Thunder: In terms of its military history, Chilocco's kind of unique among boarding schools. Can you summarize that uniqueness for us so we have kind of a context?

Baker: The uniqueness in terms of--.

Little Thunder: Indian boarding schools, Chilocco's kind of military, the military aspect, the National Guard.

Baker: As I studied the history of Chilocco, you find that, yes, the school was established with a higher degree of regimentation. This probably had a lot to do with Chilocco having its own National Guard unit there on campus. As I look back in history, this was established in 1925, which basically means that the National Guard unit had to be put there for a reason. The reason that I find is that all of the young men at Chilocco were involved with some aspect of 18:00military. I think it was just a natural evolvement that a National Guard unit be located there. Then we find that 95 percent of the members were students, and staff made up the other. Eventually when I joined the unit, people from the surrounding community were involved with the National Guard unit there at Chilocco. Chilocco was--the background of the school was the military. Even the students were involved in that aspect of it.

Just based on the fact when the students were--at that point in time they were 19:00expected to follow the military discipline, and that's both boys and girls. Even wore uniforms. Chilocco was, in fact, a military school in the early ʼ30s and the mid-ʼ20s, etcetera. It was just a natural fit, I think, based on how the school was established and run at that time. Then it evolved into a vocational program where you had eventually a three-track program: vocational, general ed, 20:00and the college prep program. When I came there as the superintendent, we had to establish another track. This was the remediation program because of the laws that were in existence at that time such as the education of the exceptional children and the Title I program, so we had to develop a remediation program.

In doing so, then we opened the programs up to fit the type of students that we had. We had children from areas where we could not send them back to at the end of the school year. To me, the perfect fit was to develop a year-round program. 21:00Chilocco pioneered that in the state of Oklahoma in 1974, so we became a year-round program. This allowed the students to remain on campus year-round, and several of them were able to receive their high school diploma in three and a half years, or some of them even less if they came in with even more units than others. The programs eventually were implemented based on what we learned about our students. This is the way it should've been in the first place. I say this because there were students who were training in various vocational areas 22:00with the intentions of going back home, but yet these programs that they were trained in did not exist in the home country.

What happened? Well, they might have received a good background in welding or a good background in baking, but when they went back home, that employment opportunity was nonexistent, so they ended up in some other aspects. I guess mine would be a good example. I was a painter, but during my days at junior college I also picked up a certificate in electricity. So those two would've complemented each other. I guess you could say I did use them because I did work 23:00at it for a little while and it helped pay my way through college. After that, I did not need to be a painter, I did not need to be an electrician, but I guess you could say it helped me get through college. There were probably a number of students who used their vocational training to do that. I might have gotten off the subject.

Little Thunder: No. You know, I'm kind of curious because you did have, you were training as a house painter, you were making a little bit of money at the school that way, you were pursuing your education, but you also were interested in serving with the Guard. Was it about supplementing your income, too, or were you truly interested at that point, kind of thinking about the military a bit as a career?

Baker: I probably would have sought out the military as a career, but I think there were probably a couple of things that did not allow me to. One, as you mentioned, was the fact that I had a good background in education, so there was no need to continue my work through the National Guard. Then secondly, as I mentioned, I got married. I felt like family obligation probably prevented me from spending more time in the military. Children, first thing you think of is 25:00you want to be with them, and going off to the military is not an option if that's something you're looking at. Yes, I gave up the military portion of it, the military portion of my life.

Nevertheless, I'm thankful that I had the opportunity to serve and still be able to pursue a college degree and raise a family. I look back, and I try to compare what might've been with the public school aspect of it and then the Chilocco 26:00boarding school aspect of it. There's no comparison, absolutely no comparison because if I stayed in the public school at Clayton, I would probably have ended up being a lumberjack like my stepfather was. What kind of a lumberjack would I have been? I might have made a living but nothing compared to what I have accomplished at Chilocco.

Little Thunder: Can you tell us a little bit about Charlie Company?

Baker When I first joined the National Guard at Chilocco, as I mentioned earlier, it was for financial reasons. Eventually, I realized that, "Hey, 27:00Charlie Company is there for a reason." As I learned more about the unit, then I could see that the other members were, particularly the students, they were involved with Charlie Company for the same reason I was. It's a financial boost to be in school and at Chilocco. Many of them had the same background that I had. This was poverty, but a number of them used it as a springboard to further their military career. I know when we went to boot camp, having been in Charlie 28:00Company for almost a year gave us an advantage over those that had just been drafted or those who had just joined their National Guard unit. Now they're at boot camp, we're all at boot camp, and the things that we learned at Chilocco, and not only in Charlie Company but the dormitory living, for example, gave us quite an advantage.

We were further ahead in that aspect than those who had just joined. As an example, when we had twenty minutes of free time--of course, in boot camp, you cherish whatever free time you can get. For what reason, I don't know, but the 29:00others were sitting there writing love letters back home. You could just see the sadness in their face because of their homesickness. By being at Chilocco we had already gotten over homesickness, and we took advantage of every free time to--. Then the comradery that we had as students of Chilocco came out. So the twenty minutes that we might have, we were out there throwing the football around, having a great time, and just razzing each other. Really enjoyed that twenty minutes while the others, as I mentioned, were sitting there homesick or writing love letters back home, etcetera. That's one thing I noticed about those of us who were a member of Charlie Company.

The unique story about Charlie Company is that we had a rubber mascot Indian 30:00doll that had on a guidon. What we found out later was that it had gone through the Korean War. This mascot had gone through the Korean War atop the Company C guidon. The story of that, we found out later, was that it was ordered to be removed from the company guidon. That's when the unit was activated, was ordered to be removed, but people went to bat for it because they knew the story about Chilocco and the National Guard unit. Eventually, the division commander allowed Charlie to remain on top of the guidon, and so the fact that it went through the Korean War, I think, helped the rebel mascot, Charlie, earn a spot in the 45th 31:00Division Museum, enshrined into the 45th Division Museum. Now it is on display in the 45th Division Museum, so the story of Charlie is, I think, finally completed.

Its enshrinement in the 45th Division Museum, to me, is a story that is very unique in itself, and the fact that it is a part of Chilocco history now, to me, makes it worthy of maybe further consideration for whatever the future might hold for those who are veterans of the Chilocco military aspect of it. This is 32:00why I'm grateful that we do have people who want to further the story of Chilocco veterans, and this is where I'm thankful for people like Charmain and Betty and Bill, who are working diligently to continue the story. With the 2016 reunion coming up, and people from various parts of the country providing the resources, including yourselves, you and Sarah, I think we are at that point where we are finally getting the story out to the world, so to speak. With 33:00Herman Viola from the Smithsonian making a stop at Chilocco during our reunion, and with the veterans program down in Oklahoma City, and Christie Woodard out of Menlo Park, California, I don't believe we can miss. I'm thankful for all of the people that have finally been discovered and are out there willing and able to assist us.

Little Thunder: Where did you go to boot camp?

Baker: My boot camp was Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, in fact, with about--forty 34:00of us from Chilocco who went to boot camp in Fort Leonard Wood.

Little Thunder: And were you already married?

Baker: Not at that point in time, no.

Little Thunder: Did you ship overseas after boot camp?

Baker: No, I went to AIT, what we call AIT, Advanced Individual Training. I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey, and eventually ended up further training at Fort Hood, Texas. My experience did not include overseas.

Milligan: I have a question real quick about the mascot. This is me just not 35:00knowing, but what is the mascot you were talking about for Charlie Company, and where did it come from?

Little Thunder: It was discovered in a store, little rubber Indian doll discovered in a store by two of the members of Charlie Company shortly after the unit was activated. It looks almost like the Cleveland Indian mascot, but this was a rubber version of it. They bought that and put it on top of the unit guidon. When people discovered that, that's when they began to order that it be 36:00removed because it was not a government-issued item. Of course, the company was made up of Indian students--probably were sympathetic towards the Indian tribes that were represented by the unit. The division commander then ordered that it be put back on the guidon, so this is what, I think, people in Charlie Company are thankful about because they were able to, as I mentioned, they were able to keep it on the guidon through the Korean War.

Little Thunder: I guess Clif Doyeto, I was surprised to see--I think he did the painted logo for Charlie Company. Doyeto, I'm not sure if you know him, but we used to run into him at art shows, Clif Doyeto. -- I understand Clif Doyeto--

Baker: Doyeto, yes.

Little Thunder: --he did the painted logo, I guess.

Baker: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you know Clif?

Baker: Yes, he and I were at Chilocco at the same time, and we were in Company C at the same time. In fact, he was the Company C guidon bearer, and an artist at that. When we were trying to relive our experiences in Charlie Company, he took that opportunity to design Charlie and gave the artwork to the alumni 38:00association, so that is basically in our possession. Of course, him being an artist, he was able to do a real good, a replica of Charlie. Not only that, we were able to find a replica of the rubber doll, and the person that found it, Dixon Dyer and Clifford Doyeto, they gave that to the alumni association. We display it every year at our reunion. Charlie has quite a story.

Little Thunder: All total, you spent about twelve years in the Guard. Is that correct?

Baker: Correct, yes.

Little Thunder: Then went on to graduate school. You mentioned that one of your--was returning to Chilocco your first administrative job, or did you have another one before that?

Baker: No, I was actually directing the early childhood educational program for the Mississippi Choctaws when the Chilocco position came open. My experience has been in public school tribal programs and Bureau of Indian Affairs educational program such as Chilocco. I really experienced the whole gamut of administrative work including the junior college and four-year college level.

Little Thunder: The program, the early childhood development, that must have been relatively new for the--.

Baker: Yes, in fact, we pioneered the parent-child development program with the Acoma Pueblos, as I say, pioneered those two programs for the various tribes. Now majority of the tribes probably have those programs now.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. How did you feel when you saw this? I guess the position was advertised for director of Chilocco and you applied?

Baker: I probably--to be honest with you, I applied for it knowing that I did not 41:00have a chance for various reasons. One was that I had not been in an administrative capacity very long, and then secondly, I was a young person. They seemed to hire old people (Laughter) before they would hire someone like me.

Little Thunder: How old were you, about?

Baker: Thirty-two, I think, but my wife at that time said, "Put in for it. You don't know. You might have a chance." Then she said, "Besides, you would be the first Chilocco graduate to become a superintendent of your old school." So I put in for it, and low and behold, I was asked to come for an interview. We drove to 42:00Ponca City and went through the interview process, and went back to Mississippi. Seems like it was the next day when they called and said, "When can you report?"

Little Thunder: That easy.

Baker: Wife had to help me off the floor, but I think I said, "Uh, uh, anytime!" We agreed in a couple weeks I would report. That is how it started.

Little Thunder: So you talked a little bit about how coming back as a Chilocco--you had been a student there, now you're coming back as 43:00superintendent. You're having to give orders to people who before had been giving orders to the students. You talked a little bit about that. How about the moving process? Was your wife excited? Were you both ready for this move?

Baker: I think she was ready to get back into the home area, so to speak. Then the fact that it was Chilocco and she had spent four years there as a student, and then two years as a postgraduate attending Cowley County Junior College, it was probably more home to her than it was me at that time. The fact that it had allowed me to be reborn--and I use that term because it was actually a rebirth 44:00for me in the sense that I was able to get my life back together and funnel it into the correct direction in terms of success. It probably meant a lot to me and be able to give back and maybe give back or maybe help it gain maybe some new directions. Yes, it was a homecoming in that respect. The move was cherished and it was a great opportunity that I would never trade for anything else.

Little Thunder: Now, when you came back, the school had already changed quite a bit.

Baker: To me, maybe in the wrong direction. When I left Chilocco as a student, programs were being carried out. Students had the opportunity to go through various programs for their benefit, and speaking for my own self, it helped me be reborn in terms of life's success. As I mentioned earlier, I wandered around the country aimlessly when I left high school, quit high school. Coming to 46:00Chilocco allowed me to put everything back together and move in the right direction. I don't know that I could have done that anywhere else, but Chilocco did help me do that. Coming back and facing my former mentors was a little awkward. I know it was awkward to them, but we managed. The thing that I noticed, however, was the fact that what I learned as an administrator of tribal programs, for example, and then going to different parts of the country and reaping the benefits of how they do things, how they carry things out, and the new ideas that I felt like I was able to pick up is one example.

I worked briefly at the [Charles] F. Kettering Foundation in Dayton, Ohio, and learned about the program we call IDEA, Institute for Development of Educational Activity. That allowed me to put together the individualized techniques that we might be able to use with our students at Chilocco who maybe had some unique problems. With those ideas, we wanted to develop strategies, but the one thing that I did notice was that those people who brought me through the era of my 48:00development at Chilocco were unprepared for the new generation of students that we had, so we had to do a number of things. One was to develop some staff development programs that would bring them up to snuff with some of the ideas that existed at that time. That took time. A number of the staff that I'm talking about resisted. Of course, people resist change. People resist change if you take them out of their comfort zone. We had those that we had to deal with. Fortunately, most of them were willing to pick up on new ideas and get 49:00retrained. Those who were not, they gave me problems.

That was a challenge, but being the administrator, you have to deal with it. Nevertheless, we instituted a number of programs that was designed to fit the types of students that we had. One was, as I mentioned, the year-round program. When the students who are juniors and seniors and they're nineteen and twenty years old, the sooner that they can start their life, work towards success in their life, the better off they are going to be. The year-round program was designed to allow them to stay at Chilocco year-round because we knew they had 50:00no place to go back home, and if they did go, then what's going to happen to them? Nevertheless, that was one of the approaches. We designed various behavioral modification programs designed not only for us but for the students, as well. If you modify a student's behavior, then you have to modify your own, as well. These are just some of the things that we looked at that we implemented.

Milligan: What are some of the examples of that (do you remember) behavioral modification, some of the things that you did that worked or didn't work?

Baker: Let me talk in terms of the students first. They were basically telling 51:00us, letting us know, that, "The things you have at Chilocco is not going to spur our interest into doing this, this, this, and that. We just don't have that inspiration. What can you do to help us overcome that?" We met with students a lot and looked at their ideas. One was that--let me just take this particular area here where the students were saying, "Back home we did whatever we wanted 52:00to." In other words, no structure in their upbringing, so we had to develop some structure. They admitted to that; they knew that. It was so easy for them to fall off the wagon, so to speak. If it came to drugs, or if it came to alcohol, or if it came to unacceptable behavior, it was so easy for them to fall off the wagon. We developed programs where we brought peer pressure into their life. Those who did not have that same problem, for example, and those who did have those problems, we put them over here and developed some structure into their daily lives.

When I say structure, we sort of regimented that environment and maybe we brought back some of the old military type of regimentation. The students were put in the dorm that we called Opportunity Dorm. The people who operated those dorms were well trained in this type of programs. One thing that they required was that even though these are freshmen, sophomores, even juniors, required them to line up and go to the dining room. When they walked into the dining room for their meals, everybody else would razz them, so this is part of peer pressure that inspired a lot of those to get out of this Opportunity Dorm as quick as I 54:00can. We kept track of violations, for example, where before we started the program--and I give credit to Dr. Gene Leitka and Robert Tetreault, our school psychologists for this. They kept track of whether we were succeeding or not succeeding. When you have a report that says there's an average of three incidents per student per day and then two months later there's an average of three incidents per student per month, then you know that it's working.

I don't take the credit for it because I give this to Dr. Gene Leitka and Robert 55:00Tetreault, our school counseling psychologist, and the student leadership because they were the ones who said, "We need to do something." Unfortunately, I left, and the word I got was that as soon as I left the incumbent administration reversed everything. The year-round school, for example, was discontinued, and the programs that we had going was discontinued, even to the point where the psychologist position was abolished. Again, every administrator has their strategies, their approach, so you have to give them credit for trying their way. I have my own opinions about what happened but will not get into that. This 56:00is just one example of some of the things that we implemented. There are some negatives to that that I will admit to.

One was our athletic program. The year-round school just did not fit our athletic program for various reasons, so we became disadvantaged. Then we had to take a look at, "What are the priorities here? Is it the students? Is it the athletics, etcetera?" We continued on. We did do some other athletic program changes that I think fit that. One, we reinstituted the boxing program. We 57:00probably had more students out for athletics because of the boxing program than we had for the football and baseball and basketball. We had a good basketball program. In fact, I think it was the first time ever that Chilocco basketball made it to the state, so we had a good basketball program, boys and girls, for that matter.

Milligan: Why do you think boxing was so popular when you reinstated, it and how long had it been not--

Baker: The boxing program was discontinued, I think, in the early ʼ50s, so it had been dormant until '74. That's how long it had been dormant. We had some good boxers at Chilocco, a number of them Golden Glove champions. Chilocco is 58:00not only--I wouldn't just say Chilocco, but Indian kids in general are attracted to boxing, boxing programs.

Milligan: Why do you think that is?

Baker: I'm not sure. I didn't do any boxing when I was a young kid. It didn't interest me, although I might have got slapped around a few times without putting gloves on. This was not something that I would've pursued as an athletic program, but we do have a lot of Indian kids that are attracted by boxing. Why, I don't know.

Little Thunder: Jim, can you talk a little bit about kind of breaking down the gender barriers in vocational training, because there had been certain things 59:00boys, young men, were allowed to do that young women weren't?

Baker I worked in areas where male chauvinism was apparent, and we had that at Chilocco. As soon as I arrived, I could sense that. We didn't necessarily start with breaking down the barriers immediately except in the employment areas. For example, we had this lady apply for one of our tractor operator positions. Immediately the head of the department says, "No, we can't hire women because if the tractor breaks down then I've got to go get a man to come over here and fix 60:00the tractor for her." I said, "Why not just give her the right tools and have her fix her own tractor?" (Laughs) He kind of looked at me, and he said, "Well, it's your decision." I said, "Okay, I'm hiring her as of now," because she was the best qualified. She had the experience and not only the experience and the qualification, but she was bigger than most men. (Laughs) I figured she could handle her own, so we hired her. As it turns out she was probably one of our best farmhands that we could hire. Eventually we hired women to do some painting.

The story that I haven't told about Chilocco is that early on, the Bureau of Indian Affairs made attempts to close down our programs for various reasons, the 61:00underscore being budgetary. Our classroom building was condemned. Our dining area was condemned. I sort of asked for that, myself. What we needed to do since these two key buildings were condemned, we needed to find alternative places before the next school year started. We immediately vacated the boys' dorm called Wheeler Hall, moved the boys back to Home Six that had been closed, and then we converted Wheeler Hall into classrooms and our kitchen and dining space. 62:00We turned people loose. Some of our teachers, for example, were in there saying, "This is where I like to have my class. I'll knock down the walls, and we'll take two dorm rooms and put them together in one classroom," so they knocked down the middle walls.

Then we hired people who were available. We had a number of women that applied, and we put them there as carpenter's helpers, painters, etcetera. That's just an example of how we broke down the gender barrier. In the vocational programs we said, "If auto mechanics only has five students in there, why not open it up to the girls?" We did that. I know that some of our staff made noise about, but we 63:00did it anyway. We opened up the vo-ag program and all of the other vocational programs to allow the girls to enroll in those vocational programs. We had a number of girls who enrolled in auto mechanics, enrolled in agriculture because, for example, they said, "I grew up on the farm," and this just fits her comfort zone. Did that. Had girls take welding, dry-cleaning, so that just gives you an idea of some of the things that we did.

Milligan: What were the staff who objected--what were their objections?

Baker: Auto mechanics, for example, pardon the expression, but they said, "These 64:00guys are going to be standing out there watching the girls as they lean over and work on that automobile." That might have been one of the statements the instructors made. "The girls are not strong enough to lift the weight that might need to be lifted," etcetera. These are just some examples. Of course, where there's a will--. Where they are willing, there's going to be these gals that are going to do it, and they proved it.

Little Thunder: Why did you--when you decided to leave Chilocco, what were some 65:00of the things you were--

Baker: A number of reasons. The first time that they actually decided that Chilocco would close, I mean there were a number of us who fought this in all areas, city leaders, for example, some of the state people, tribal leaders. One was when, as I mentioned, the kitchen and classroom were condemned and then we converted Wheeler Hall over to classroom, kitchen, dining room building. The 66:00person who was responsible for deciding whether or not the school would close, we invited him to Chilocco on the opening day of school. The carpenters and construction people walked out of that building, turned it over on that very first day of school. The kitchen staff were able to use it, the kitchen and dining room, for the first time. The first meal was served that evening because we had to go to McDonald's to feed the children lunch, but the supper meal was served in that new cafeteria for the first time. The person from Washington, DC, was invited to dinner that evening after we got through with our business meeting.

When he got through with the meal, the students were all in there and a lot of 67:00the staff members had come to hear him because they were also invited to have their dinner in the dining room for the first time. He got up and made the statement that Chilocco will not close. It was kind of a big sigh of relief for me, and practically burned out. Maybe I should say I was actually burned out. I felt like this would be a good time to leave, now that the school is going to remain open and it'd be a good time for me to leave. The next day I called my boss and asked him if there were some other place he could use me. I gave him my reasons why, and he accepted. He said, "We'll find you a place." About a week later they called and asked if I'd take a temporary assignment in Washington, 68:00DC. "Yes, I would." That, in essence, is how I left Chilocco. I think I was ready for the change. Probably had not accomplished everything I needed to that could be accomplished, but nevertheless I think for the sake of my own family that this was a good time to leave.

Milligan I'm curious because you said you were the first Chilocco alum to basically be the administrator for the school. Had they had--had any of the previous administrators been Native American?

Baker: The first Chilocco graduate to be superintendent. Now, we have had former students as, like, academic department head. We had one other person who was 69:00Native American that was superintendent before I was, but he was not a Chiloccoan. In fact, when I took my first teaching job and went to Brigham City, Utah, he was there. Chilocco was opened, and he got selected for it. He came to Chilocco while I was teaching in Brigham City, Utah. Then I went on to graduate school, finished up, and went to Mississippi to work. When that became vacant and he left and went to Anadarko, I applied and ended up at Chilocco. Yes, the first graduate of Chilocco to be superintendent.

Milligan: I'm also--I keep thinking about sort of that transition, and I think in the way that the history of the school but also the way that we understand Indian boarding schools in general, I mean there's this sort of myth that's built in some reality, maybe not Chilocco specifically, about Indian boarding schools being founded to be a place where Native American kids can be "civilized," right, in quotation marks. And there's this history of being taken away from family. There's a legacy. By the time you were involved and the time that it's in the mid-twentieth century, it seems to have shifted quite a bit to, "This was a good thing," like this is something that you had ownership of and were strategic to try and develop these things that the students needed that were responsive to those needs. I'm kind of curious at what time that sort of 71:00shifted from, "We need to have this structure that fits them into this square peg of what we think they should do," versus "It's this educational opportunity to help them figure out what they want to be."

Baker: I think all boarding schools (maybe I should say Indian schools) were probably highly regimented to do what you just asked, and that is to take the Indian out of the Indian, so to speak. I think every school has probably gone through a phase of one sort or another from the highly regimented, militaristic type of school to maybe a different type of school. Now, I credit the shift from 72:00the regimented programs to a little more humanistic program because of the Meriam Report. In 1928, I think it was, the Meriam Report came out. It was highly critical of the way Indian schools were being operated. "Let's humanize the program," so to speak. I think Chilocco shifted with that. That's probably the era that I would credit myself as being reborn because here I am, (probably people would've called me a renegade) and then coming back, and then putting my 73:00life back together in the proper manner, and then finishing school. There had probably been some shifts away from that because of the era when Indian children would protest and etcetera.

That element, I think, snuck in. This is probably the time when the latter part of that phase is when I came in as superintendent. We had to put things together. Chilocco probably has a lot more graduates from that era of more humanized approach, a lot more graduates in that era than the others, and that's probably why you hear people talk about Chilocco being their home or their second home or the love for the school, etcetera. When I look back at history, 74:00we had well over 5,542 graduates. Of those, probably less than a thousand of us still in existence because in 1980 the school closed, so we're not graduating any more Chiloccoans. Very few of us left now. My question is, "What will happen to Chilocco as more of us die away? Will it become a forgotten history?" Hopefully not. What we're trying to do is prolong maybe the memory of the school 75:00by bringing in our children into the alumni association as associate members. I think this is probably going to work to the advantage for some period of time, anyway.

Milligan: Why do you think it is so important to remember Chilocco, outside of the people who attended there? I understand that kinship, but you want to share this with the rest of the world. Why? Why does that matter?

Baker: I would take religion as an example, maybe as a parallel. If we lose our religion, what's left? Maybe Chilocco is not that great, but to Indian country 76:00(I don't want to just say Chilocco, but boarding schools, our Indian schools) if we lose our Indian schools, what's left? Are we now Anglicanized? Are we still Indians? It's probably that, more so than the fact that it's just Chilocco. Yes, Chilocco has a great history. A lot of great people have come out of there. One example, we've had congressional medal of honor winners coming out of our National Guard unit. We've had the CEO of Krispy Kreme coming out of Chilocco. We've had a person coming out of our carpentry program that eventually built Eastland Mall in Tulsa. We've had assistant US attorneys come out of Chilocco. 77:00To me, it's a history worth saving. It's a history worth prolonging the life of the school as far into the future as we can so that maybe someday somebody will write about it.

Milligan: Tell me if I understood this correctly, but it sounds like you were saying that part of the importance for the legacy of Indian schools, maybe the purpose of Indian schools, was to help young Indian people maintain their Indianness.

Baker: That is something that we would all say, yes. "We would like to see--. 78:00Let's be realistic." I don't believe that we can totally save our Indian way of life through education. That has to come from the family because culture is a way of life. Your culture is a way of life. My culture is the way of life that I live. My parents lived the way they lived, and I learned that. So now, as I mentioned, I'm able to speak the language. I'm able to prepare the old traditional Choctaw food. My own Choctaw people, however, might say, "You're an 79:00outsider because you've been gone too long." I might have to work my way back into their trust, but nevertheless I'm still Choctaw and I still speak the language. Chilocco didn't help me retain that. Chilocco probably tried to help me get out of that Indian way of life.

I was fortunate enough to be able to exist in both worlds. Problem there, it just takes twice the amount of time for me to be a non-Indian and an Indian. I go back to the story that Jay Silverheels and I were talking one day, and he said, "You know, Jim, I'm glad you're able to speak your language. I'm glad 80:00you're able to live your Choctaw way of life. It's easy to be an Indian, but it's hell being one." Of course, he was referring to the fact that you have to take twice as long to be able to exist in both worlds. Prolonging our Indian school history is not, in my estimation, going to help retain our Indianness, so to speak. It's just the fact that part of my life is at Chilocco. Probably what's more important to me than my Indianness is the fact that I have brothers and sisters that come out of Chilocco. Every Chiloccoan is my brother or my sister.

Milligan: I don't think that I know clearly--what years were you there as a student?

Baker I arrived in 1958, about a week late, but I got there in '58, September of '58. Graduated in 1960 and eventually left there late '62. I didn't finish, but I attended Cowley County Junior College for a year as a postgraduate, so those are the student years. Then came back in December of '73 as superintendent and 82:00then left there in early '78, headed for Washington, DC.

Milligan: What did you do while you were in Washington, DC?

Baker: I worked in the--let me just go back and say that 1978, there was a law that was passed, Public Law 95-561, which would forever change the complexion of Indian education in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I went in to help train people on what that new law was. Then eventually helped get people together so that we 83:00could develop new policies so that it would be implemented as soon as possible. One example of what it did was at Chilocco at that time teachers were employed twelve months out of the year. The new law instituted a school board at every Indian school who had the authority to hire teachers under a contract. It was basically similar to a public school system where teachers were hired, say, like nine months or nine and a half months per year. So that's one complexion that was changed. The other was that instead of the area director at that time, 84:00(that's what they were known, being the local regional supervisor, say, like Chilocco) established an education director at each region, so that's another change that we made.

Then the rest of the Bureau then was called BOB, Balance of the Bureau. Then we had Ed over here, education, just some of the names that were born as a result of the task force I helped lead to implement these different laws. In essence, that's basically what I was doing in Washington. Now, the sad part about all of this is that they decided that Chilocco would go ahead and close, and in 1980 it 85:00was closed. I know some of the comments that were made was that, "Well, Baker went to Washington and closed Chilocco." That's kind of hard to live with, but that [comment's] a fact. Of course, I didn't have anything to do with it. I didn't even have that authority, for that matter, but to John Henry back home, a year in Washington and the school closes, that's kind of the conclusion he puts together. Nothing you can do about it.

Milligan: Why did Chilocco close in 1980?

Baker: It was budgetary issues, and the Bureau had to come up with ways to cut its budget. The Bureau of Indian Affairs Education had come up with ways to cut 86:00its budget. Assistant secretary at that time then had to find some places to cut, and since these had already been discussed prior, it was easier for them to say, "Okay, we'll go ahead and close X number of schools because of--." Then they looked at per-people cost; they looked at declining enrollments. Chilocco was sitting there with maybe 125 buildings with an enrollment of, say, less than four hundred, when at one time the enrollment was thirteen, fourteen hundred. The Navajo Program no longer existed there, so all these other facilities were not necessarily needed. It was an easy target. When Senator [Henry] Bellmon was 87:00working the budget for this area, then working with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and together they agreed that this is one area that they can cut. So Chilocco, Fort Sill, Seneca Indian School, and Concho Indian School in Oklahoma were part of the target. Of course, you had other schools around the country, but those were the four schools in Oklahoma that were on the list.

Milligan: They all closed together?

Baker: Yes, basically at the same time, yes.

Milligan: Do you remember hearing about the plan to close Chilocco when you were in DC?

Baker: I did. I spent some time with the Assistant Secretary. While there, I was working for the deputy assistant secretary, so I did get an opportunity to hear 88:00his explanation. He had some good reasons. My reasons were more sentimental than realistic, but I still spoke my piece.

Milligan: I think I have little tiny things in my brain, but I don't think we have to go back to all of them because they're just little detail questions, but there was something I really did--. I want to know the funny story you tell about when people ask you what your parents did. You gave us a serious answer when we said, "Tell us what your parents did for a living." You said you have a funny story. I want to know the funny answer.

Baker: I reckon I'll tell you. (Laughs)

Milligan: Oh, no, you don't have to.

Baker: I don't think I would be correct in saying it publicly, but, anyway, next question.

Milligan: That's okay. I just wanted to be curious. I think we followed through sort of your connection with Chilocco. I don't want to keep you for too much longer, but I think we got back into the history, not just your involvement but also sort of the longer-form history. For Julie and I's sake as we move forward doing interviews with veterans that came out of Chilocco, what are some of the things that you think are going to be helpful for us to ask about? What are some of the things that you think are going to be important for us to make sure that we talk to people about, if you've thought about it?

Baker: The one question that I've always wondered about, and I saw this with the 90:00little group that I was with in Fort Leonard Wood, is, "What is it at Chilocco that helped you through the hard times," they experienced while they were in service. I have a feeling that the fact they come from here and then they traveled a thousand miles to come to Chilocco, they overcame a lot. Homesickness might be one; missing their parents, missing their siblings might be another. 91:00Did this in any way help them through their military ordeal? Boot camp might be one example. I can sense that they would respond as I would respond. I knew how to make my bed. I knew how to clean my room. I knew how to do my own laundry.

In fact, I knew what it took to get by, or I knew what it took to make everything look super. When I got to boot camp, it was not really a challenge because I got in there and I fixed my bunk. Jump up and stand inspection, and they'd come by. "Aha! Where'd you learn this?" Of course, when I tell them 92:00Chilocco, "Where the hell is that?" I'm just wondering, curious, if other trainees maybe had the same experience. The other is, you already knew about the chow. We called it chow at Chilocco just as we call it in the military. The stuff that they served up in the military probably very similar to what we had at Chilocco. Did these help them get through the military? That's just some of the examples. Then getting up at certain times--.

Milligan: Do you remember, because you came to Chilocco in your mid- to late 93:00teens, do you remember the adjustment for you coming into that really regimented lifestyle? You said culturally you felt like you had pretty easy entrance, but the military sort of aspect and the regimented part of Chilocco, was that comfortable for you to move into?

Baker: Chilocco was not highly regimented when I arrived, although there were expectations. You had to get up at a certain time, or you had to go to bed and be in your room by a certain time. Breakfast was served at seven in the morning or six thirty in the morning. I don't remember; it's been so long ago. That was probably the extent of the regimentation. My lifestyle, I come from a permissive 94:00lifestyle, so to speak. I did what I wanted when I wanted, and my mother was not the authoritarian that some mothers might have been. That might have been a little, some newness to me in that aspect, but the fact that my roommates accepted me, and my roommates said, "Hey, let's go to chow," then I just jumped up and went with them. They said, "Wait, you got to clean your room." That's something you got to learn how to do is clean your room.

At that time, there was about five of us in that big dorm room, so when they picked up the broom, I picked up the mop. When they picked up the mop, I picked up the trashcan, so that's just kind of the way I fell in line with everything. 95:00The one thing that I probably didn't do that a lot of the kids were doing was dancing. We had that Flaming Arrow at Chilocco we called FA. We got the opportunity, then I'd go sit there and listen, and drink Coke, and listen to music, and watch people dance. I never got out there to dance. The consequence of that is I probably had to do without dates, (Laughs) but I got by. I eventually married a Chiloccoan. When she passed on, I married another Chiloccoan. Chilocco's been my life.

Milligan: I think that's all I've got. Julie, what are you--.

Little Thunder: That's, I think, a really eloquent summary, too, of what it's 96:00meant to you, so thank you for your time today, Jim.

Baker: I've enjoyed it, and more so than I thought I would. (Laughter) As I said earlier, I'm always willing to talk about Chilocco because I've got a lot that I learned from that and from being there. Had a lot of great experiences and met a lot of great people. As I said, they are all my brothers and sisters.

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