Oral history interview with Bryan Waytula

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, November 9, 2017, and I'm interviewing Bryan Waytula for the Oklahoma Native Artists Interview series at Oklahoma State University. It's part of the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program. We're at Bryan's home in Sand Springs. Bryan, you teach art at Metro Christian School. You come from a long line of creative people, including two Cherokee National Treasure basket- makers. Your media, however, are two-dimensional paintings and graphics, and your style ranges from hyperrealistic to a kind of pointillism.

Waytula: Yeah, more contemporary.

Little Thunder: We'll talk about that. You've been winning a lot of awards lately and won an Honorable Mention at Santa Fe Indian Market the first year you were there. I'm looking forward to hearing more about you and your work. Thanks for taking the time to talk with me.

Waytula: Yeah, you're welcome. It's a pleasure.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Waytula: I was born in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. Grew up around there, too, as well. 1:00I grew up there at my grandmother's, and then also in Sapulpa, Oklahoma, which is in Creek County. Pretty much my hometown was Sapulpa, Oklahoma, where I grew up.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Waytula: My mom stayed at home with us for a little while, and then she went back, earned her degree as an accountant auditor. My dad has been in the parks and recreation business for a very long time. He used to be president of ORPS [Oklahoma Recreation and Park Society] here in Oklahoma. Recently they both retired, so they both deserve it.

Little Thunder: Brothers or sisters?

Waytula: I've got one brother and one sister, and then I have six step-brothers.

Little Thunder: Big family. (Laughter)

Waytula: Big family, yeah.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship to your grandparents on either side 2:00of your family?

Waytula: On either side, I was really close with--my dad, being from Chicago, when he came down to Oklahoma to play basketball, he met my mom. A little easier. We lived here in Oklahoma, so I got to see my grandmother a lot more. My grandfather passed away on my mom's side before I really got to know him. I think I may have been one or two years old, but I have some pictures with him, as well. Got to know my grandmother here in Oklahoma a lot more, but we'd travel up there during the holidays, Christmas. In Chicago, it was cold, but had a really good relationship with them, too. Talked to them all the time, especially as I got older and learned to use a phone. Right now, I have my grandmother, who's still living, but I really have a good relationship with all of them. My 3:00grandfather played minor league baseball, so I was a big fan of his, hearing stories and watching baseball, go up there and visit and everything. My grandmother in Chicago, Italian, she can cook. Every time I go up there to visit, I always put on weight. (Laughter) I knew I was going to put on weight. Then my grandmother here, we'd always go down to Tahlequah and hang out with her and my cousin. We'd run around her acreage and cause all kinds of trouble, jumping off her roof and things like that. We put her through a lot.

Little Thunder: That's what boys do. (Laughs) What was your exposure to Cherokee culture growing up?

Waytula: Really, it was just us growing up. At the time, I didn't know I was being exposed to anything. I just thought that's how things were. Growing up, we would go visit my grandmother, it seemed, almost every other weekend, every 4:00weekend during the summers. We'd be down there, running through the woods. My mom and my grandmother, they'd be weaving their baskets, and us kids would be running around. They tried to get us involved in the arts, as well. My cousin started, I think, traditional stomp dancing. He did that for a little while. We'd be making key chains, things like that around the house, growing up in Tahlequah, keychains, drawings, anything we could get our hands on. It was always like we were trying to be creative. "Go outside and play." "Okay, we're going to go build a fort. We're going to go build this," or, "Let's try and make this." We were always trying to make something. We'd come back in time for lunch, and they'd be putting their baskets away. We'd be down there mingling with them when we could. They'd talk Cherokee, and we were like, "What'd they say? What'd they say," and try and learn bits and pieces, here and there.

Little Thunder: Your grandmother was a speaker?

Waytula: Yeah, she could. I think she passed away when I was about fifteen years old, so I was still learning and trying to mature. I was the older one. My sister's two years younger; my brother was six. Then my cousin, who is like my brother, was two years younger than me, as well. Yeah, she was a speaker. We learned all the words what not to do. It was like, "We're in trouble when she says that. Okay, we won't--." We picked that up. Seeing them weaving their baskets, they'd go to shows. I'd go to a couple; my sister would go to a couple; my cousin would go to a couple. They would be showing their baskets, and we'd see them weaving. They'd go out and gather honeysuckle and things like that.

I don't know if it was--. They'd be like, "Hey, go get as much as you can." "Okay, we'll get it!" We didn't know we were actually working, I guess. Yeah, I 6:00was encouraged to do a lot of drawings when I was younger. We'd go to Cherokee Holiday, and we'd be out there downtown for the candy. We'd see all the artists, the art shows, so I got exposed to a lot of different mediums that I really didn't know at the time, just seeing the artists, the basket weavers. The dancers were so cool, fancy dancers especially. It was us growing up, getting to see all this. I thought it happened everywhere. Go back to Chicago, "You guys don't have powwows around here?" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of making your first piece of art?

Waytula: My mom or I still have it. It was a picture I did of Garfield. I don't know if it's in my baby book, or if it's in my mom's hope chest. I can't 7:00remember, but I know we still have it. It was a drawing I did of Garfield. I think I was five years old. I used to always read the comics and look at the cartoons and try and copy them. That's one I remember first off.

Little Thunder: How about your art experiences in elementary school, and this would be at Sapulpa, I guess.

Waytula: We were in Tahlequah, and then we moved to Chicago for a year. That was just--. Couldn't do it. It was another lifestyle, really busy, fast-paced, a lot of people, cars going by right where you're living. We moved back to Tahlequah and stayed there a year, and then moved to Sapulpa, where I grew up, fourth grade on. Growing up in elementary school, we had art, but it wasn't honestly something that doesn't stand out in my mind until I got maybe eighth grade in 8:00Sapulpa. I don't even remember doing art in class until then, other than what I was doing at home or at my grandmother's, drawing or trying to make things at the house. The first memory is, yeah, eighth grade year. I was at Lone Star Elementary in Sapulpa, and we had to do a half-and-half drawing. You take half a magazine portrait or somebody, a model or something, and draw the other half. I was pretty good at that. The teacher took notice and said, "Try this, try that." That's my earliest memory of doing art in school.

Little Thunder: Did you have any exposure to art in high school?

Waytula: Yeah, as I was starting to--being an athlete, I was really big into 9:00athletics and everything like that but had a little interest in the arts. Freshman year, I wasn't very good at all, high school. Eighth and ninth grade are awkward. Ninth grade, I was terrible at everything I did, it seemed. The teacher was trying to do this, "Try drawing this." I was like, "I have no training in this. I'm terrible." Really discouraged me. I was like, "I'm awful at this. I'm going to do something else." Tried it again my sophomore year and had a different teacher, Jeff Saville. He had been there a while. He was very good; encouraged me and taught me step by step how to develop. Did that all the way up until my high school senior career. He was like, "Hey, you can get a scholarship doing this stuff," and my talents developed. Back then, you had All State art, which I made, which was cool.

Little Thunder: You made that competition?

Waytula: Yeah, I had to submit slides, things like that, and ended up being awarded an All State. I was like, "Okay, cool, where's my jacket," because basketball, all those athletes had jackets for All State. I was like, "I'll take one for art. I want one of those cool jackets." He really helped push me, encourage me, not really push, to stay in the arts. I was getting some nice recognition there at the high school. It was, "You did this. You got this award in the art show." It was nice, getting some recognition of something other than athletics, and something that I enjoyed.

Little Thunder: Yeah, because you were also playing basketball pretty seriously.

Waytula: Yes, I played basketball on two or three state championship teams, not championship. We went to the state tournament. We were in the final four, I 11:00think, two years I was there. So doing that, playing golf, very active.

Little Thunder: How did you end up deciding to go to school at University of Oklahoma?

Waytula: My mom. (Laughs) My parents, they've always encouraged us to educate. You never stop learning. Always keep trying to improve yourself. Learn as much as you can. I had some opportunities at USAO [University of Science and Arts of Oklahoma]. I got accepted into the University of Kansas, Oklahoma State University, and Northeastern State University. Then it came down to scholarship. I submitted art scholarships, any kind of financial aid all over the state, trying to get financial aid to where I could go. My parents worked really hard. 12:00It was really tough to afford, and had to take out student loans. We were trying to get as much as we could wherever we could, and OU came in and gave me another scholarship at the last minute.

Little Thunder: In art?

Waytula: Yeah, in art, and I decided to sign with them.

Little Thunder: Did you know going in that you were going to be an art major, the decision you made?

Waytula: Sort of. I had to declare a major to keep my scholarship, so I was like, "All right, I guess I'm going to be an artist. Otherwise, I'm going to have to figure out another way to pay for college if I lose my scholarship." I wanted to do something in the arts, and I chose visual communications, which is design. I'm glad I did. I learned a lot about typography, type design, typefaces, how to organize a layout, which actually helped me later on as an 13:00artist, develop my compositions and organize things.

Little Thunder: What instructors stood out for you?

Waytula: Dan Kiacz, who is a really good artist in his own. I know he had some work out in New Mexico. He's a screen printer. Marwin Begaye, who's there now working as a professor and also as a working artist, he's very good. He was actually a grad student when I was there, so I got to know him that way before he was a professor and a student. I see him now. I touch base with him, time to time. I know he's busy, but we saw each other in Santa Fe. I took some of my students up for their AP [Advanced Placement] Portfolio. He was there, reviewing portfolios, so it was good to run into him again. Eric Anderson, who's still there at the university, teaching design; Karen Thumann, who's still there, teaching design. Dr. Mary Jo Watson, who was the dean there for a little while 14:00and a professor, she really got me interested in learning more about my heritage, being Cherokee, and asking more questions about our history and everything like that. She was very impactful while I was at the university.

Little Thunder: I was wondering if you were exploring Native subject matter at all in college.

Waytula: Yeah, I took a couple courses on it. That's where I ended up meeting Dr. Watson, and she was awesome. I really enjoyed--I looked forward to her class. You know how some students, you take college courses, and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, I've got to sit through this boring lecture and look at slides." Her lectures on the Aztecs and things like that, as well, I was really interested in it.

Little Thunder: I'm going to ask you about your Wayman Tisdale story in a minute 15:00because you have a neat story about him. You're taking these classes. Are you taking education classes, also?

Waytula: No.

Little Thunder: Okay, so you are thinking in terms of--.

Waytula: I wanted to go out and be a designer. I wanted to get my visual communications degree. I wanted to go out and try and work for a company, developing websites, web design, business cards, any kind of material they needed that would go out visually to a client or anything like that. It wasn't what I thought it would be, especially in Oklahoma. I had family, so I wanted to stay in Oklahoma. I didn't want to move to LA or Chicago or Dallas where I have--. My old classmates from college, they moved out, and they're doing well, but I didn't want to leave Oklahoma. It's really hard around here to find those 16:00kinds of jobs. A lot of freelance, which I had no idea what even freelance was.

Little Thunder: Is that what you ended up doing the first couple of years?

Waytula: I did for a little while. I worked the worst job I ever had. It might have been the worst job I ever had. It was probably almost a year out of college. I was working for Signs Now as a designer--a vinyl company in Tulsa. I don't know if I can say their name. We can bleep that out. (Laughter) Man, I was like, "These people's bad idea--this. It's just ugly. I can't do this anymore. Is this what I chose to spend all my money on, to do this?" I was in for a rude awakening. After that, I was like, "You know what? I need a break." I ended up working for Coca-Cola for a year. Man, that was a job. It was a good job--built 17:00a lot of character. I was like, "All right, I should buckle down and really find something that I enjoy doing." Started doing some substitute teaching and wanted to get into coaching like that. My younger brother was getting into high school. He was getting more mature, and fun to watch, and play against. I was like, "I want to get into coaching." That's when I went back to Northeastern State to take classes and work towards getting certified in education.

Little Thunder: You weren't, during this time period, trying to do any art, necessarily, outside of your jobs?

Waytula: Not really. I did a couple drawings here and there, but it wasn't--. I didn't know. I was like, "Man, I don't know if you can make a living doing this drawing or that drawing." I was doing some drawings for professional athletes, or trying to. I wanted to do some artwork that they could sign. I'd collect autographs when I was younger, and I thought it would be--.

Little Thunder: You were doing them as gifts?

Waytula: Yeah, sort of. Actually, I wanted to draw them and be like, "Hey, can you sign my drawing," and then I'd keep it. Some of them ended up being gifts. When I was at OU, I knew some of the basketball players, and I was a walk-on until I got hurt. I couldn't balance both. I did a couple drawings while I was at OU for some of the football players I was rooming with in the dorm. The kicker, (Laughter) I did a drawing for him for his girlfriend at Christmas. He signed a couple things for me, and that was the exchange. I learned to trade at an early age. Johnny Gilbert, who played basketball, I did a little drawing of him that he liked, thought was so cool. You get some of these big-time football players because they won a national championship while I was there. They're coming in, wondering, "What are you drawing? That's good." "Okay, here." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's cool. You get your education degree. Then what's your first job when you get out?

Waytula: First job that I got, I took a job in Kansas. It was Chapman, Kansas, a small rural school. I can't remember the class, maybe 2A or 3A, (I don't know) outside of Fort Riley. I lived in Manhattan, Kansas, which K-State, college town. Commuted to Chapman. I actually got lucky. It was the first job that was offered, and they put a deadline on me. I get it; they didn't want me waiting for other jobs to open up and see. I got lucky taking that job. At first, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm moving to Kansas. What am I doing?" Going away from home is a little scary. I got all my stuff in a U-Haul. I moved up there to teach art 20:00and coach basketball. I met a gentleman, Pete Spratlin. I love Pete.

He ended up writing the curriculum for art there in the state of Kansas. Went to K-State University, Kansas State, a very good potter. He was a very good artist. I was lucky. He was retiring, and he had been there for a long time. He developed a screen printing company there inside the school that helped generate scholarships for students that worked in his program. He was a phenomenal artist. Worked in clay. He built his own kiln that was gas fired. I mean, the dude, he was mixing his own chemicals for glazes. A jeweler, and for that first year, he stayed on. He came on two, three hours a day to work the screen printing to help me out because I was coaching, and the dude was awesome. It was 21:00a great learning experience under him.

Little Thunder: I was going to say, it was more art education.

Waytula: Yeah, it really was. I was like a grad student working alongside a professor every day, so I was really fortunate.

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Little Thunder: When did you start entering Native art markets and competitive shows?

Waytula: My first one was--I think I was twenty-four, maybe. I did a drawing and said, "Okay, I'll try it," because after my grandmother passed away, Mom stopped 26:00weaving for a while. I stopped drawing and really looking and doing anything with my heritage. Every time I brought it up or talked about it, it would make Mom sad. It was hard since they weaved baskets and were so close. I went for a while there without doing a lot of art or competitions. The first one, I got an Honorable Mention on one of my drawings, first one I put in. I was like, "That's so cool," and I was like, "Okay, I'll try it."

Little Thunder: Which show was it?

Waytula: Gosh, it was--. I know it was at the [Cherokee] Heritage Center, but that was a long time ago. I don't remember. I don't remember what show it was. I just remember being there and seeing my green ribbon. I was like, "I got an Honorable Mention, very cool. Someone liked it!" That's my earliest memory of 27:00entering a competition.

Little Thunder: Eventually, you end up teaching in Sapulpa again.

Waytula: Yeah, I left Kansas after two years, and the teacher who taught me was retiring and stepping down and reached out to me. "Hey, would you be interested? I'd like to let you know I'm stepping down." I was excited. I was like, "I get to go back home," be around friends and family and things like that. I took it, and I ended up coaching there and teaching art there at Sapulpa for five years.

Little Thunder: Now, when you were doing your art, did the teaching aspect influence you in any way?

Waytula: Yeah, it did, some of the projects we were working on in class. Teaching students, I mean, I'm practicing every day. I'll sit here and draw and shade and show a kid how to do this, or we're drawing figure drawings or life 28:00drawings and things like that. I'm like, "Now you need to be more here and be working," so I was practicing, it seemed like, every day. We'd get some ideas from the lessons. I'm like, "I could put that in my artwork somehow, see if I can incorporate this." I was teaching myself, as well, some new mediums, or with the budgets that they give us. "Let's get this kind of art medium. Let's try inks, or we'll work in this next year," some things I didn't get a chance to work in. It gave me a chance to experiment, too, while teaching the kids how to do something.

Little Thunder: What do you consider your first important award where you're on track?

Waytula: Being recognized. I did a drawing, a white charcoal drawing on black, of a Vietnam soldier. He was Native American. It was a rendering of three or 29:00four different images that I put into one. I researched archival Vietnam images because I wanted it to be historically accurate. It was big, too. I have a problem with working big sometimes.

Little Thunder: It was a drawing?

Waytula: Yeah, it was a charcoal drawing. Had it up. Again, I'm still young. This was my first competition, really. My mom was encouraging me to do more shows and things like that, and I don't know a lot of artists yet, or a lot of people in that art community. I was awarded Emerging Artist, and then also received the Bill Rabbit Legacy Award, who I remember before he passed away. I knew his daughter, Traci. Bill was our guy. We'd be running around the Cherokee 30:00Holiday or the art shows out at the Heritage Center. I was like, "Let's go see the Rabbit." He had the aviators; he had the goatee. He could paint, and we always thought he had the cool last name, Rabbit. When I received that award, it was meaningful and everything. I was shocked. I was talking to my mom. "All right, we're going to discuss the Bill Rabbit Legacy Award." My mom and I were talking quietly in the background, and then they said my name. My mom looked--she was really excited, and I was, "What, really?" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How big was the drawing?

Waytula: It was over--. It had to have been close to thirty-four-by-forty-eight, or thirty-by-forty-two. It was a big charcoal drawing.

Little Thunder: Neat, and that was 2014, right?

Waytula: Twenty fourteen or 2015, I think, yeah.

Little Thunder: What are some of the major themes of your work right now?

Waytula: Right now, anything that comes across that hits me and I want to raise awareness to or inform people about, a lot of things. As I get older, I'm starting to learn more and more, developing relationships with more Native American artists, dancers. The more active I am, the more people I get to meet. I get to hear their stories, as well, and their thoughts, and what they think. Just anything that I'm passionate about, that I want them to be proud of seeing, or that brings up things that may have happened in our past so we don't forget 32:00them. It's not like, "They did this to us," or, "The government, they--." Just so that we don't forget it happened; we're moving on. A lot of students--me, growing up in Oklahoma, I remember my brother was supposed to partake in a land run or something. I understand now why my mom was upset about it. I was going, "Why won't they let Jake have any fun?" I was like, "Now I understand why." There's thoughts and things, memories like that that come up from my childhood or adolescence, growing up, that I try, and I'll put towards my work now, or animals that I'm given stories on.

My grandmother taught me and my cousins the scariest story about this wolf that runs around at night. It's a ghost wolf, and you can't be outside after--. I'm 33:00like, "Is she serious, or--." That might end up in a painting one day or something. Right now with the pipelines, I mean, we're trying to run all these routes through Native lands and things like that. They're looking for any way to get around it. "How can we do this? Who can we pay off?" There's a lot of things going on. The thing with the Dakota Pipeline was a big thing for me. I wanted to go up there. I had a lot of friends that went up there to support them. They weren't standing on the frontline; some were. Some were there to support, bring blankets, food, supplies, whatever they could. I had just had my son, who was premature, who would not be alive today if I went, probably. My wife would have killed me. I felt the responsibility as a father and a husband to stay home and 34:00take care of them. I did a piece, We Stand As One, that has "Water is Life" in the background repeating, and pay homage for those that went. I wasn't able to.

It was an important time in our history where we all came together and had one voice. All my friends--I put on Facebook as I was working through this, and upon its completion reached out to my friends, different tribes who went, friends who I know went. "Hey, man, who are your friends' names that went? What tribe are they? Tell me a little bit. What'd they do?" I made sure I put all their names, who replied, on the back to show them my respect and thank you for what they did, take time out, their own budget to drive up there. That was something I was really passionate about. Another thing was the Trail of Tears piece I'm working 35:00on, I'm entitling Sincerely, Andrew Jackson. I enjoy history a little bit. I'm not the smartest when it comes to reciting documents or dates and events and things like that. I was curious, and I read his letter to Congress, just out of curiosity. I know our .gov, they have images of actual documents, handwritten documents. I was curious. "Let's see what his handwriting looked like," or whatever.

Little Thunder: Good idea.

Waytula: I did not like some of the things he said in that. Again, it was probably somebody who has not been around us or understood the culture or heritage, our ways back then, and took time. They only had their own opinion or perspective on us. Didn't like some of the words that were said, how he 36:00described us and everything. I always heard about it when I was little, and I was like, "Why do they call it that?" Tried to do some more research on that as I started getting older and as I started developing my skills. "I'm going to do a piece finally about this and raise awareness, a statement piece or something." Recently complete--it's still in the works. After reading through that, I was like, "Yeah, I got to put this on canvas." I used a friend of mine as the model, clutching a blanket, cold, and it actually simulates his handwriting in that letter in the back. You can read the background. That's exactly what he said, for that piece, something that we won't forget. That's why I titled it Sincerely, Andrew Jackson. Thank you for--.

Little Thunder: That's a great concept.

Waytula: That's what I try to do in my pieces. I put a lot of emotion into it, anything that I'm happy about, sad about, frustrated about, angry about, some things that might be funny. I did a painting about the Indian Motorcycle company. I titled that piece Full Blood Indian. It's a shot of the tank that has the word "Indian" on it. I did a piece on my mom titled Her Mother Earth based off my mom. My interpretations, I like mythology a little bit, so I really love our stories that we tell. I try and put a different spin on things. I love other tribes' stories, too. I find them fascinating. I don't like to pigeonhole myself. "Okay, he's Cherokee, so he has to draw only Cherokee stories or only Cherokee legends or Cherokee traditions." I was like, "Why, if I'm good at what I do?" I want to promote other tribes and what they do. I want to make sure I'm properly informed, and I do my research. Why can't I say a little bit more or put a little different, a new-age spin on some things? Robert Lewis is one of my favorite Cherokee Treasures because of the stories he tells. He's a storyteller, and he's the coolest. I like the spin that he puts on old, traditional stories and comes up with his new stories.

Little Thunder: Portraits are a big vein of your work.

Waytula: Yeah, I really enjoy portraits. As I got into this new style, I really enjoyed mosaics and stained glass growing up. I always liked puzzles. Anytime I was at my grandmother's, seemed like I was doing a puzzle. I'd be at home; I was doing a puzzle. I remember doing collages with my dad on the table. It developed into this style where I'm using the contrast of colors, different colors, different sizes, contrasting shapes, the circles. I learned that in pointillism. The more dots you put in an area, the darker it's going to get. If you're using black ink on white paper, a little less, it's going to appear brighter. I take that theory into my paintings. Went into them as first doing things that I would hope one day the Cherokee Nation would build a museum to where they're housing in all these priceless works that artists are doing. If they had a museum, that would be awesome, if they had a Jane Osti piece, a basket by my grandmother. I think my mom has one, but they're lost. They didn't have internet or track them. It was just how they supported themselves. I had started doing some portraits so I could document a little bit.

I did one of my grandmother. She's sitting, weaving a basket, and has the oil on the background, or the acrylic to fill her out. She pops off that background as a way to document, "This was my grandmother. She was a Cherokee Treasure. This was her story. This is what she did." Same way I did one with my mom as my interpretation of Mother Earth. If I saw Mother Earth, this is what she would appear like, very colorful in her appearance and everything. Then I did a portrait of Mr. Joe Thornton, who was an Olympic archer in his youth. I started with the Renaissance-type background, with the oil background to really make it pop and add a little more contemporary spin on it. I went into those portraits thinking, "Okay, these are important people." It's like the Mona Lisa; that's one of the more famous portraits. Vermeer's Girl With the Pearl Earring, all these stories about these people whose portraits are painted, well, who do we have? You see them in books, or you might get a picture way back then of what they looked like. When you see them in galleries, that's what I was aiming for, to begin.

Little Thunder: Contemporary, when you see contemporary people of your time.

Waytula: I admire what Chuck Close has done with his style. It was like, "I wonder how he does that with the circles of color, making them come together." My studies at OU really helped me as an artist progress to where I'm at now, what I'm trying.

Little Thunder: Yeah, it's really neat stuff. You went to Santa Fe Indian Market for the first time in 2015 or 2016?

Waytula: This last year, I was there. Yeah, 2017 was my first year to apply. Mom tried to get me to do it the year before, but teaching, it's busy. It's hard to do. You have to apply so far out ahead because it's that many people that come in. I was overwhelmed with--. I was excited. I got the letter. "You're in." I was like, "Sweet!" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did your mom go with you?

Waytula: She was in, too. She got in. Last year, she was on the waiting list, and she got in and went and then told me about it. I was like, "I got to try this. This is cool."

Little Thunder: You didn't share a booth?

Waytula: No, we didn't share a booth. She got in on her own skills. She's good. I'm doing this, "I hope I get in. I hope I get in." I was fortunate that whoever did the judging or application process or the Board found my work interesting. Man, it was an eye-opening experience, going to Santa Fe. I'm meeting all of these artists. Their works are in galleries, and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, that's him." It was cool, too. I have a former student that's out there, and he's becoming an artist in his own right. He's very good. Went to the Art Institute out there. He was there; had his own booth, too. It was really cool to catch up with him and see artists from Oklahoma, too, drive all this way. I'm like, "This is a long way, a long trip for art." Traci Rabbit was there. I can't even think of some of the other artists that were there because it was just a blur.

Little Thunder: Lot of Oklahomans.

Waytula: Yeah, it was a blur with all of these artists, and some new artists that I met, too. I was like, "Man, they're doing some really good stuff, where they're from. Wow, this guy in Maine is making some baskets that are--. Holy smokes." It was eye-opening and humbling, too. It put me in my place a little bit. "Yeah, I got in." I got out there, and I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not saying a word around this person. They're really good. I just want to look at what they got." It was really nice. Everybody's there to help everyone. You have questions; they open up. "This is how I do this," or, "This is how my mom told me how to do this," or, "My dad taught me this." It was a really cool experience. I hope I get in next year.

Little Thunder: I'm betting you will. You had some gallery opportunities come up out of this, too.

Waytula: Yeah, this last year has been a lot of fun. It's nice when people say they like your work, what you do. Anything you do, you put a lot of work into. During my time out there--. I've been told, "You need to go out again, if you slow," which I didn't. I had a lot of people come up and talk to me and really like my work. "Wow, it's different." I was like, "Okay." Another person, "Wow, that's interesting." "Okay." "That's different. I've never seen this before." "Okay." I was like, "Am I doing something wrong?" I like what I do. They'd keep 38:00asking me about all of the circles. "How many are there?" I was like, "I'm never counting them. If you want to count, you can count." At first, I was like, "I haven't made any sales of my original pieces, and everyone's saying it's different. They like it. It's interesting." Then I met a gentleman; his name's Lyn Fox. He works primarily in Pueblo pottery. Approached me, and that's where I sold my first original in Santa Fe, was to him.

Then he contacted me. He was very complimentary about my work, had nothing but nice things to say about how it's different. I was like, "Okay, you, too." That was a good thing, I'm finding out later on, is that nobody's doing this style. Yes, it's falling in the pointillism category, but it's unique, different color 39:00combinations, subject matter, things like that. Anyway, he gave me a shot. He was like, "Hey, give me a call. I'd love to set something up." I was like, "I live in Oklahoma. You know that, right?" I'm thinking, "How do I get works from here to there," because I'm a rookie still. He's like, "Don't worry about it. We'll get something set up." I'm like, "I teach full-time. It's really hard for me to travel. I can't get up here whenever. I have to go by holidays and whenever the kids are out of school." We have something set up in March during spring break where I can bring some works up there. Recently shipped up, probably, three pieces, one of which recently sold after--I think he said it was hanging up for two days.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful.

Waytula: Someone purchased it. I'm really looking forward to going up there and having my first show for a month in his gallery. He's the first one to really take notice there in Santa Fe and give me the opportunity.

Little Thunder: That's really exciting. You also have an opportunity coming up with Chickasaw Nation.

Waytula: Marcus Milligan approached me. When I was down there for the Artesian [Arts Festival], they got to see my work, and that was my first show there. I'd never been down there before. My mom had done--like I said, I feel like I'm the rookie still. My mom's guiding me, too, and other artists, saying, "You need to try this show. You need to definitely get into this show. Apply for this show. You need to do this show. You need to go here." I'm like, "Okay," so I'm taking notes. My mom is telling me, "You need to get in the Artesian next year." I'm like, "What is that?" It was down in Sulphur. Never been down there before, past Norman. Me, going to school in Norman, that was far enough.

They really enjoyed my work there, got a lot of compliments, and then decided to go back and do SEASAM [Southeastern Art Show and Market] there in Tishomingo. Marcus Milligan, Mr. Milligan, approached me. They really liked my work again, complimentary on it. Sold two originals down there during that, in my Prismacolor style, which is more the photorealism. Not too many people--I mean, there's artists I follow on Instagram. I take notes when I see others doing work that I think is better than mine. I'm like, "How'd they do that," or, "How'd they do this?" I try and study other artists, too. He approached me in doing a show with them, showing some of my work and then also trying to do a workshop.

Little Thunder: In Prismacolor?

Waytula: Yeah, teaching other Native Americans or anyone who wants to take the class there at the Chickasaw Nation, in how to use Prismacolors and how to make them look realistic because not too many people--. I learned in high school from my art teacher. He got me started on those, and I--. Everyone likes color, and I was like, "That's hard for me to paint and blend," and things like that. I would always go back to a colored pencil, which they look like paintings, but they're drawings.

Little Thunder: Right, and that was going to--. That's a good segue into talking a little bit about your techniques. The challenges of Prismacolor are what?

Waytula: First, Prismacolors are looked down upon. You're not going to see a lot of Prismacolors, really, in galleries if you go to New York or places like that, Chicago. They're not oil paintings. They're not acrylic paintings. They're not watercolors. They're not charcoal. They're not your traditional medium.

Little Thunder: They're not easy to work with, either.

Waytula: No, they're not easy to work with. (Laughs) At least that's what I've been told through other art groups, not just Native Americans but other art groups. Galleries, they don't really--Prismacolor, colored pencils, no, but I still enjoy them. I don't care what they think.

Little Thunder: You might change that. (Laughs)

Waytula: Yeah, there's a lot of artists that work in Prismacolor or just colored pencil. I know Faber-Castell makes a good product, too. I work a lot in those. I've done it for so long in high school. I do some stuff for Oral Roberts baseball, with their program. I've done a Prismacolor that Cy Young winner, Dallas Keuchel, (he's an Oklahoma boy) signed, and they auctioned it off. I have three or four former players that are playing for Oral Roberts baseball right now. They're good, and that's why I do it. The money generated is going to go towards them and help them out in that program. It got me a couple signed baseballs, too. I got one for my son, too.

Little Thunder: Still trading? (Laughs)

Waytula: Yes, still trading. I'm still trading my artwork. (Laughter) It's a good trade to help them out. It's a layering process with those colored pencils. You have to layer a little here, a little there, a little more. You have to know what colors to mix to get it a certain flesh tone or a certain highlight, and how to do reflection and things like that. It takes time and practice. Hopefully, I can--I'd like to do that with the Cherokee Nation one day, as well, hold a workshop. I love the opportunity they're giving me down there at the Chickasaw Nation to do a workshop and to teach that medium there, too. We'll see if I can do it. Hopefully, I don't freeze up.

Little Thunder: That will be fun. (Laughs) You do this real interesting combination of the oil paint background and acrylics, but you also do some straight-up acrylic. It seems like your format, it's a larger format.

Waytula: Yeah, I know there's artists that have their own style and they like to--. Doing my drawings and stuff, it seemed like, "Okay, that's a good drawing. Who is it?" You don't know Joe Schmo from Joe Blow when it comes to drawings. They're good. They're realistic. I'm like, "Wow, they really did a good job on that," but it was hard to set yourself apart style-wise when it came to drawing or maybe painting landscapes. I can tell what a Bob Ross looks like. I can tell what a Monet or a Van Gogh or a Degas, things like that. You see that style. They're usually the first ones that create that style, something unique that's 41:00eye-catching, something different. When it came to a lot of my drawings I was doing, it shows good technique and skill, but I wanted to stand out on my own. I didn't want to do drawings like everybody else, so I started playing around with oils. I was like, "I'm a bad oil painter. I've never been taught. I don't know the technique. I don't know the layering, but I know how to blend." I started using a little bit of the Renaissance technique and portraitures.

That's how I developed the nice contrast of the oil background with the contrast, the intensity the acrylics bring, and then the black contrast that goes around, much like you see when you're in a stained-glass church. You're looking from the inside, and you see all of the black that brings out all of 42:00those colors. I work in different mediums, too, in the same one, not just oil, acrylic, enamel, ink. I've got markers in this one right here. I have markers on the background. They're the architecture markers, again, Prismacolor. I feel like I'm doing a piece, "Buy Prismacolors." The handwriting has two Prismacolors in it: a really light one, and then a dark one, highlighted in areas, then back on the light one again so that it looks like that iron ink where it would settle and turn brown. It would settle again and be darker to simulate the handwriting. I try and work in different medium. I don't know. Maybe I'll put it in paper or transfers or something like that in my next one.

Little Thunder: Keep experimenting, yeah.

Waytula: I like to keep the circles as my signature because I really like how--. I don't know. Maybe it's my eyes when I'm tired. "I don't want to have to strain my eyes. I'll do this, and I can see it." I like how they blend together from a distance.

Little Thunder: Right, you can really see that influence from doing that mosaic stuff. Do you do much preliminary sketching?

Waytula: A lot of my preliminary sketching, yeah, I have a little sketchbook. When I have an idea, I'm like, "All right, I got to get this," and I'll sketch it out really quick. I wish I was more like Roy Boney. That guy, his sketches on Facebook, he's a cool guy and artist. I like his style. Sketching, I can do it, but I need some references. I like to go out, and I like to set up. I use what I learned at OU with Photoshop, Illustrator, things like that to take pictures and then collaborate them together to really get the pose I want. It's hard for me. When I get an idea, I'm like, "All right, I need to do it now." I don't know if 43:00that's all artists. We're bad at scheduling, I guess. I have a hard time scheduling a model. "Okay, you're going to come in, gosh, but I want to do it right now." I'll Photoshop; I'll take some pictures; or I'll pose; or I'll have somebody else pose, or ask, "Hey, send me a selfie," which I actually did for this piece right here.

A friend of mine, I was like, "Shoot me a selfie. I want to use your face." "Okay." "You need to be sad or sorrowful. Don't smile." She shoots me three selfies, and I Photoshop that out. I find another pose that I find with a blanket, and I Photoshop these in. I'm like, "There it is, all right." Then I start to sketch it out and see where it goes. Hopefully, it turns out well to where I'm not scrapping it and wasting my time. All my practicing, my sketching, everything I do, teaching kids life drawing, drawing from a grid, how to look at 44:00a grid's reference lines, "All right, you're drawing your head here. Where's this line? Yeah, see, okay, you should be drawing your head up here. That's why you look like an alien." That's where I get a lot of my practice. I sketch on kids' drawings all day. (Laughter) That's my practice. I'm fixing a lot of mistakes every day.

Little Thunder: How did you figure out your signature?

Waytula: You know what? My high school teacher said, "You've really got to work on your signature." He taught us how to sign: your first initial big, a little bit smaller, and then your second initial a lot larger, and then smaller. It doesn't always have to be legible. You need to know that that's supposed to be a letter, and then a Y. Otherwise, what's the point? I've gone through a couple signatures, and it's taken me years to practice getting it just right. I tell my 45:00students, too, "You need to learn how to sign your name to where they can read it first. Then when you get bigger and better and people start identifying your work, you can initial it for all I care. You want people to know who you are. They're not going to know C. W. Okay, C. W. did a great job. Can I google C. W. and find out who it is? No." I tell them, "Make sure you come up with a really sharp signature. Work on it to where it's somewhat legible." I tell them a lot of professional athletes, they're signing all these autographs. They are taught this is how you're supposed to sign your name, to where you can read part of it but still at the same time sign five hundred and fifty before a game. I've been developing my signature for years and years and years, and finally settled on this one that I do now.

Little Thunder: Yeah, placement and size and everything, they all count.

Waytula: I always tell them, "Lower left or lower right. Don't detract from your piece, but at the same time, don't hide your signature." You want people to look at it and be like, "That's Bryan Waytula." They're not hunting around, "Who did it? I can't see it," or, "I can't make it out." By that time, you lose business, or you might lose a client.

Little Thunder: Describe your creative process from the time you get an idea.

Waytula: I can't sleep. My wife probably hates it.

Little Thunder: You want to do it right away?

Waytula: I do want to do it right away. I will sit and lay in bed, and I will think, "That's a good idea. How can I change this? What if I did this? What if I did that?" I'm tossing and turning. I was like, "I can't--I got to shut my brain off. I can't do it." When I get an idea, I've got to finish it right then. That's probably why my wife--that's probably why we work well together. She loves to schedule; things are set. I'm sporadic. "I got an idea. I've got to go 46:00work." Then I walk out the door. She's like, "What? They're getting ready to eat." I'm pretty sporadic. Once I get an idea and I know it's a good idea, I really go with it and try to investigate it until I'm happy where I can say, "Okay, now is a stopping point," or I exhaust myself to where I'm like, "My brain hurts. I can't do this anymore. I need a break."

I don't want to lose that idea. Everyone said, "Keep a sketchbook. Write your ideas down." I'm like, "If I do that, I'll forget." Honestly, I forget about them. I go back, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, that was a good idea. What was I wanting to do?" I have a little sketch, and I was like, "I have no idea what that meant." I might as well try to record myself. By then, my passion for that is gone. I've moved on to something else. Anytime I get an idea, I try and knock it out really fast so that I don't lose any kind of--. It doesn't become a job. "I got to finish this. I don't like it. It's not turning out right." I want to do it all while I'm passionate about it and have the energy to and the interest to.

Little Thunder: It's not like you say to yourself, "Okay, I'm going to work a couple of nights after school," or, "I'm going to work this whole weekend."

Waytula: We try, or I try to do that, during my plan periods at school or at work. That's me. I'm employed to educate others about art, influence them, try and get them interested, drawing skills, technique, things like that. The downside of that is the documents that the state that they make you do. You got to fill out this and make sure--. Nowadays, it's like they don't trust the individual to be professional enough in what they know or what they do to just do what you do. I think we're losing a lot of teachers because of all the 48:00paperwork we have to fill out, and just the redundancy of--. It's overkill. I'll be working, and then I'm like, "I've got to be creative for a while. I've been drawing on all of these kids' mistakes, trying to fix their projects. I've been gluing my hands together in this project we're working on, or covered in paint. I got to wash--I got to do something for me." I'll take an hour to myself.

Most professionals will take their hour lunch break. We only get a couple minutes to inhale our food because you got recess and then you're back teaching. Some professionals, you get an hour massage, or they go to the gym or something like that. I was like, "I got to be creative for an hour." If I'm working on a piece, the kids get to watch me do it in class. They get to see its progress, too, like, "Man, he's really putting the time in." "Yeah, I worked, like, four hours after work on this, guys, and you guys are complaining about putting in 49:00thirty minutes during the day, during the class period." It's good exposure for them to see a working artist. There will be days I'll stay after, work two or three hours. Sometimes I'll work, and then I'll come home, and I'll bring it with me. I get in the studio, and I'll zone out and jam out with my music for a couple hours. On the weekend, getting ready for a show, I'm like a total--.

My wife, Linda, she's very understanding. She's like, "Yeah, I know. Go ahead. All right, I'll watch Bryson." "Okay." She gets it, now that she's seeing me go to these shows, the recognition I'm getting, the demand for the style that I'm graced with. Blessed with people wanting to request these things. "Hey, can you get me this?" "Can you get me that?" "Hey, how much would this commission run," or, "Can you get me a couple pieces for my show?" I'm like, "Okay." She understands what goes in the work and how long it takes. She's like, "Wow, that takes a long time to do those." I was like, "Yeah, it does." Then she asks, "How many circles are in that? How many you got?" I'm like, "I don't know. Count them. I'm going to sleep." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I think you've got a really bright, promising career ahead of you, and your actual time doing markets and galleries has been very short.

Waytula: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Looking back at this point, do you think there's any particular thing that was a fork in the road for you, or a--.

Waytula: You get a lot of--in art, you're always trying to find yourself. For a 50:00while there, I was losing my, not passion but, "Okay, I'm drawing. I'm trying to get better." There's been times where I get discouraged. My parents have always been encouraging. "Hey, keep at it. Keep at it. Keep working hard." They worked hard for what they got, and I've got to do the same. My grandmother passing away and my mom not wanting to weave again, or having to take that long break from it, and then me not talking about our background or more about my mom's life or my grandmother's life, that was a big gap I wish I had back. You need time to mourn. I know it's difficult. It was really hard for her to weave again. We finally made that deal that if she starts weaving again, I'll start showing. I'll do artwork. I'll draw.

"You need to teach me," so she started weaving again. It's been a lot of fun to compete with her. Then my grandfather passed away, I think, in Chicago. It was hard. He's my favorite baseball player. Really looked up to him. That really hit me hard. I was really close to him, and after a while, it was like I didn't do much after that. There really haven't been a lot of forks in the road. A lot of the elders that came before me, artists, the ones that really pushed the Native American Arts and Crafts Act really have opened doors and things for me, possibilities with my artwork, giving me opportunities that they had to fight 51:00for, really. They eliminated a lot of the forks in the roads. The ones who have been doing artwork for quite a while now that I call--they're like Hall of Famers, that I see at shows and competitions. I joke around with them, talk with 52:00them and everything, but I have a lot of respect for those, for them that I see.

Little Thunder: All right. We're going to stop and take a look at a couple of your pieces here. -- You mentioned this was your "Water is Life" piece.

Waytula: This one was the one I completed. That's an iconic image from Standing Rock, and "Water is Life" was a reoccurring message that we were trying to convey to people and everyone out there. I felt this was important to try and get out there to make people, like I said, raise awareness of what was going on and everything, names of everybody who went, my friends, and then their friends of friends who they traveled with. "Hey, I know this person went, and I met up with this person when I was there." Facebook now, you can reach out to so many people, and I made sure, "Hey, tag them. Tag them in it and ask them if I can put their name on the back and make them a part of this piece so they can be appreciated."

Little Thunder: That's neat. That's a neat way to handle that, okay.

Waytula: This is the back of We Stand as One. It has all of the names of everybody, my friends, friends of friends who were there. I wrote on the back, "For all of you who traveled to take blankets, food, supplies, clothes, and stood on the frontlines of Standing Rock." That's why I titled this one We Stand as One.

Little Thunder: This one won Best of Class.

Waytula: Yeah, it won Best of Class at the 2017 Cherokee Art Market, and I'm really proud of this. I had some admirers in Santa Fe. They were asking about 53:00the story. I showed it to them, and they actually saw somebody they recognized on the back. Then I went to SEASAM in Chickasaw [Nation], and another artist there asked about the story. I took it down and let him see the names. His cousin or his nephew was on here. He thought it was so cool that that was done. I really appreciated the compliments and everyone who volunteered.

Little Thunder: Right. -- And this painting here?

Waytula: This one I titled Mother Earth. It's a play on two things. That was my mom when she was, I think, eighteen or nineteen in her regalia. I used an old photograph, and it was really hard. It's my mom. I got to make her pretty, and I got to do it right (Laughter) because she'd give me the hardest time on it if I 54:00didn't do a good job. That's my interpretation. If Mother Earth were to appear to us, what would she look like? It's my mother. She's got the warm face of the Earth's core, center, the purple mountains, a lot of color. I wanted her vibrant, the way she'd glow if you saw her. You'd see all these rich colors of the Earth's soil, the plains, the golden, the golds that I have in there, the light blues, the small touches of the green in there, the creeks, green country with the hair. There's a lot of symbolism with color that I wanted to put into this portrait. It's probably one of my favorite pieces that I've done.

Little Thunder: I hope you do get to keep this one. (Laughs)

Waytula: Yeah, I think I want to hang onto this one, unless my mom wants a Christmas present or something. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Thank you for your time tonight, Bryan.

Waytula: Yeah, you're welcome. It was fun.

------- End of interview -------