Oral history interview with Kenneth Johnson

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is October 15, 2017, and I'm interviewing Kenneth Johnson for the Oklahoma Native Artists project on behalf of the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're in Santa Fe, New Mexico, at Kenneth's studio. Kenneth, you're Muscogee Creek, a contemporary jeweler who is known for their innovative, often customized designs with Southeastern influence. You've won numerous top awards at shows across the country, the Heard Museum, Santa Fe Indian Market, and two Supreme Court justices have your jewelry. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Johnson: Sure thing, Julie.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Johnson: I was born in Lubbock, Texas, of all places, and I grew up in Oklahoma. My mother moved back to Oklahoma City when I was four years old. I spent time with my family in Tulsa in the summertime, popping firecrackers and going down 1:00to the river in Tahlequah. Our family have been gathering in Tahlequah since the 1890s.

Little Thunder: I did not know that.

Johnson: Yeah, so my time in Oklahoma was mostly on the eastern side, and moving back there let me connect, as opposed to having to grow up in Lubbock. That would have been tough.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs) What did your folks do for a living?

Johnson: I only grew up with my mother. I didn't meet my father until I was older. My mother, she worked at a hospital. I wasn't very aware of her career, but what I was aware of is I went to a place called Seneca Indian School as a child. Seneca Indian School is a boarding school in northeastern Oklahoma in Wyandotte, and my mom had gone there in the ʼ40s, ʼ50s. My uncles had both 2:00gone there earlier than that, and even my oldest aunt went there. We had a little family history there.

Little Thunder: It was a family tradition.

Johnson: The thing about Seneca Indian School is it was a really good place for my mother to go to because she was being raised by her grandmother. That was in a farm life, and it was difficult for my grandmother to make ends meet. Indian school was a good place for her. She had a place to grow up and learn and be around other kids. There I was. When I was six years old, my mom said, "Would you like to go to Seneca Indian School? You'll have other little kids to play with." What my mother didn't know was that in between the time she was there as a little girl, and when she was going to send me, it had turned into a 3:00reform-type school, a place of last resort for kids before foster care or juvenile court system. It was a rougher experience, but I loved it. One of the things that I learned at Seneca Indian School was arts and crafts, and that's where I started working with my hands, a lot of macramé, lot of beadwork, lot of things to keep kids busy when we weren't running around in the woods. The formal education was nothing that I remember, but the other types of education were important, I feel like, in helping me through later parts of life.

Little Thunder: Definitely. Now, did you have any brothers or sisters?

Johnson: I have half-brothers and half-sisters.

Little Thunder: How about your maternal grandparents? Did you have a 4:00relationship with--.

Johnson: Yes, I was close to my grandmother, and her name was Lucinda Walkingstick Bruner. She's a Bruner. The thing about our family, you introduced me as Creek, Muscogee Creek, and I'm also Seminole. Creek and Seminole are both Muscogee people, but there's a little bit of a difference.

Little Thunder: Yes, I forgot to add the Seminole, yeah.

Johnson: Growing up and spending time, my mother made it a point to take me back to Tulsa. Getting to spend time with my cousins, it gave me a sense of identity of where I'm from. Then as I grew older, I started understanding how my family ended up in Tulsa. I'd always ask my grandma questions. I was always grilling her. She would get a little frustrated with my questions sometimes because I was pesky, but I like researching things. I like understanding the path of how 5:00things happen. My grandmother had two husbands. Her first husband was Seminole, and his name was Newman Johnson. Our family was originally from around Wewoka. That's on the border of the Seminole and Creek Countries. She had four children with him, actually five. One didn't make it. Then they divorced, and then she married a Cherokee man. She had four children with him, so she went from being a Johnson to being a Walkingstick. A lot of people assume that I'm Cherokee because my grandmother is a Walkingstick. That's the history behind that.

Little Thunder: That's the history there.

Johnson: Half my family is Creek and Seminole. The other half of my family is 6:00Creek and Cherokee.

Little Thunder: That's why you rendezvous in Tahlequah. (Laughter)

Johnson: That was why we go to Tahlequah, yeah.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of seeing Native art, your very first memory?

Johnson: I would watch my uncle John Walkingstick. He painted a lot, and he did a lot of arts and crafts. There were family members who would paint on rocks, and they were doing beadwork and that type of thing. Actually, getting to engage with artwork as a child, we watched the career of Enoch Kelly Haney and his time spent with us Indian kids. As an artist, I think he would go and speak, and it impressed us little kids at Indian school.

Little Thunder: It was at Seneca?

Johnson: Yes, he actually spoke at Sequoyah High School is when I remember him, 7:00and a group of the younger children from grade school at Seneca Indian School went to Sequoyah High School. Once a year, Sequoyah High School would be the gathering spot for all the boarding schools in Oklahoma to have an arts and crafts. I don't know what it was, but all the other boarding schools would gather at Sequoyah. Kelly Haney was there, giving a presentation in one of the classrooms. I like to tell the story that when Kelly was at the front of the class, he drew a circle on a chalkboard. He says, "What's this?" We said, "Circle, zero, letter O," and this chalkboard was a place we had only ever seen text or numbers. For this Indian man to get up there, he proceeded to add more lines and say, "What's this?" We would guess.

He ended up drawing the most incredible Indian face, and we were amazed to watch art happen on this thing we'd only ever seen text and numbers on. It gave us a different perspective. Then we followed his career. He put all these postcards out that would have imagery, like a feather with faces in it, or a warrior that showed the modern warrior and an ancient warrior. We liked that. We liked that nuance. It was really cool to follow him. That was one of our engagements with Indian art, besides the crafts that we were making to keep us out of trouble, keep our hands busy. It was very gratifying to get to know Kelly as an adult and also as an artist, and I'm currently in a collaborative work with him on our canoe project. He's making a really cool paddle. Anyways, engaging with Indian 9:00art, that was my early memories was John Walkingstick, Kelly Haney.

Little Thunder: What is your very first memory of making art?

Johnson: Tough question. I can't remember that far back. I enjoyed making art at Seneca Indian School. I think my first memories are things that I would--. We'd make God's eyes, typical ʼ70s-type fare, a lot of macramé, a lot of--. We were braiding and beadwork. I still have some of my early things I made back then, I'd come back home and give to my mom. If you were to ask, my early experiences was making beadwork. I used to love to braid. It was a four-way braid of a little plastic (I forget what they call it) cord. I'd make keychains for my 10:00uncles and grandma. I'd make little crosses to wear. There was one incident where I made this really cool God's eye. It was an awesome God's eye, and the teacher said, "You have to sell it because we're selling this at our arts and crafts." I said, "I want to give this to my mom. I want to take this home. This is my best God's eye." She said, "No, you have to sell it. It's part of the process." I didn't like that.

They wouldn't let me buy it, either. I couldn't buy my own God's eye. They forced me to sell it, this teacher. I don't even recall who that was, but I remember, "I can't have my own God's eye? I made this, and you won't let me have it." One of my classmates bought it. I said, "That sucks," and he won't give it back to me. He says, "No, I'm going to give it to my mom." I stole it back. I 11:00hid it from him, and I snuck it back. I had to steal my own work and sneak it back in my suitcase to give to my mom. I still have it. It's funny. My wife says, "Why do you still have that?" What's really cool is my youngest daughter, she's learned how to make God's eyes. Her little God's eyes are next to mine, the same era. I had to really work hard to get that piece back. I collected myself. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a great story, yes, and you weren't commercially--.. (Laughs)

Johnson: Yeah, man, I wanted that thing.

Little Thunder: Basically, then, you were at Seneca for most of your elementary, and you went to Sequoyah after that or in between?

Johnson: I had to go to public school in Oklahoma City, and I hated it--

Little Thunder: Talk about that a bit.

Johnson: --because I'm a transitional teenager, I'm thirteen, and suddenly all 12:00my friends are gone. I don't have any friends because all my friends are from the boarding school group that is from all over the country. I made friends from Florida, California, New York, and then all over Oklahoma, and I had to go to a public school. I didn't know anybody, so it was a--. Coming from eighth grade, being king of the hill, you're the big eighth grader. Ninth grade, you don't know anybody. Then I think the difference--I talk about this when I tell stories. At Indian school, in that Native community, your standard was based on your athletic ability, or how tough you were, or your connections, who you were in that community. When I went to public school, it suddenly became based on, your standing was based on what you had and how much money you had.

We didn't have any, so I didn't have any standing. (Laughs) I was surprised to see ninth graders coming to school in new cars. "Wow, really?" I barely had a bike, and I was happy to have a bike. I still tell my family the time I only had two shirts. (Laughter) I had a blue shirt, and I had a yellow shirt. I worked at the student store at the school, Mayfield Junior High or something. The kids would tease me, "He's wearing the yellow one today. He's wearing the blue one today." (Laughter) It was good enough at Indian school, but it wasn't good enough in public school. That was a little bit of contrast.

Little Thunder: Definitely, and you worked at the student store to make a little money?

Johnson: Yeah, I can't remember why I did that. I was ambitious. I wanted to achieve things there.

Little Thunder: Were you buying art supplies already?

Johnson: No, I didn't do arts and crafts in that time. I begged my mother to let 14:00me go back to Sequoyah High School where my friends were because I didn't know anybody there. She relented and let me go back to Sequoyah. I eventually graduated from there. My first roommates were the people that I knew back from Seneca Indian School. We call them Seneca bros.

Little Thunder: That's nice. At Sequoyah, what kind of an artistic base did you get?

Johnson: I made friends with the art teacher, who was really cool, to just create. I remember doing beadwork. I was into beadwork there, and I still have some of the original--. I made a bracelet or something, would make chokers and basic elements like that.

Little Thunder: Already working a lot in 3D and jewelry.

Johnson: We were fascinated with drawing. After meeting Kelly Haney, we were fascinated to always draw faces on everything. I wasn't very good at it, but we 15:00always tried. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Who was your teacher, the art teacher at Sequoyah?

Johnson: I can't recall his name offhand. I picture him. I could figure his name out, but I just can't quite remember.

Little Thunder: You haven't had any encounters, though, with actually working with silver or anything, jewelry, yet?

Johnson: Not at that time, no.

Little Thunder: What happens after you leave Sequoyah?

Johnson: I graduated in 1984, and I went to University of Oklahoma. They had a summer program. The one thing I'll give credit to being in public school is while growing up in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City became a hub for refugees coming from Vietnam. The Vietnam War ended '75, and a lot of refugees came over. I befriended one guy. As more refugees came in, that little community grew. I 16:00couldn't find any Indians, so I hung out with the Vietnamese. They taught me math; I taught them cuss words. It was a good trade. In public school, I actually got ready for the ACT test. That was one bit of preparation that paid off later, and they didn't teach that in Indian school. At the time, Sequoyah High School was still federally government-run.

The year I graduated, it was turned over to Cherokee Nation, and now they made it into a really fine school. It's real top of the line, hard to get into, that kind of thing. Not when I was there. (Laughter) In fact, they have a coffee mug that says, "Sequoyah High School: School of Choice." I thought, "Wow, that's a total different world than I knew." (Laughter) I went on to University of Oklahoma through an engineering program that noticed my ACT score and said, "This guy has some skills." I had a twenty-eight in sciences. I had a 17:00twenty-four or something. Anyways, it was good enough to get into OU. I went to school for mechanical engineering, totally different than art.

Little Thunder: Was it an interest of yours?

Johnson: No, I didn't know about it. I didn't have a vision. I didn't know what an engineer did, but after I got educated about it, "Okay, this test score says that I'd do well in this, and they need Indians in these fields." I committed to it. I didn't think about art. In fact, my roommate, Gerald [Wofford], was an art major. We would mercilessly tease him because his tests were standing in front of a mirror, and he would have to draw a self portrait. He would do that on one side of the room, and I would sit on the other side of the room, memorizing 18:00formulas and going through these books and numbers. It was a big contrast. All these years later, I'm the guy drawing, trying to do self-portraits, and etcetera. It came back on me, all that teasing I did to him. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You weren't thinking of yourself as an artist. You were just open to--. What happened at OU to change your course and change your track?

Johnson: I did real well academically, initially. I was very involved in the Native community there, American Indian Science and Engineering Scholar, and I was treasurer for the organization and also with American Indian Student Association. One year, they put on a powwow at the Lloyd Noble Arena, and they 19:00didn't have any money to pay the drums. I worked, selling raffle tickets. I didn't just walk around the bottom, around the drum. I walked all the way up to the top of the stands. I found every little old lady, every guy with his girl over in the corner. I said, "Come on. She needs this blanket. You're going to need this later." I made enough money for the drum groups. We had a successful powwow. Just being involved in the activities--but my grades were going down. I thought, "Okay." At the time, my mother was in a job where she opened restaurants for a company.

She would go to a new city, hire people, develop menus, get the restaurant running, and then she'd move on. She says, "I'm going to Albuquerque, and I'm supposed to open a place in February." I said, "Shoot, that sounds interesting. 20:00I need a change." I was getting burned out in engineering. I thought, "I need to change it up." I went out to Albuquerque from Norman, Oklahoma. Drove my old Indian car down I-40. I took a trunk load of my grandma's commodities. Visited Grandma; got a trunk load of commodities; went out there. I called my mom. I said, "Should I get an efficiency and wait until you get here, and we can look for a place together, or should I get a bigger place right away?" She said, "I found out today, I'm not going." "Okay." I got a little efficiency, enrolled in school, and I stayed.

Little Thunder: At UNM [University of New Mexico]?

Johnson: I stayed at UNM in their engineering program, and I ended up dropping 21:00out of there when I read a book, an engineering assignment. I read three pages in three hours, and it wasn't very good. I realized I wasn't processing what I'm doing. In the meanwhile, I had met other Natives here in the city. One of them was Johnson Bobb. He's Choctaw from Oklahoma. He married a Navajo. They called their business Chocajo. He would do metalwork, and his wife, Lenita, would do beadwork. It's a role reversal because Choctaws are known for beadwork, and Navajos are known for metalwork. They embraced me. He was welcoming. He was a friendly Okie, and they put up with me. He would teach me the basics, stamping, sawing, soldering, polishing, and I stayed, working with him in his studio. I 22:00never worked for him but with him. He would give me the projects he didn't want to do anymore, and that was cool. I was hungry, a skinny, little kid.

I think when I moved out to New Mexico, I was only nineteen, twenty. I went to OU when I was seventeen. I had just turned seventeen. Anyways, I got interested in jewelry. What was interesting is meeting other families. There's this one particular family that, they were always really good to me, the [Tsoodle] family. They're half Kiowa, half Taos Pueblo, and I remember seeing that family. They'd make things, and they'd sell it. They'd say, "We got to go to an art show," and they'd all travel. That seemed fun. I thought, "Wow, you can make things that you're inspired to do and find someone who appreciates it, and you 23:00can actually pay your bills doing it?" That's what I wanted to do. I disenrolled from school. I said, "I'm going to come back later and do this." Told myself I was. I told myself that for another three more years. "I'm just doing this until I go back to school." I realized, "I'm going to do this the rest of my career," so I quit saying, "I'm going to go back to school."

Little Thunder: What was your first art show that you did?

Johnson: I think I started doing the Portal in Albuquerque, there in the Plaza, but I would do little conferences. Like if an Indian conference came to town, I would have my jewelry together. Oh, I did the Flea Market! I just now realized it. I sold at the Albuquerque Flea Market.

Little Thunder: Somebody might have a piece of yours from there. (Laughs)

Johnson: You never know. My high-end was in the eight-dollar range. I would make 24:00things out of brass.

Little Thunder: Did you have a little bit of equipment, or were you still working--.

Johnson: I had converted a swamp cooler motor into a buffer, and it had a cardboard box as a place to catch the dust. I had a homemade bench, a jeweler's saw, and some basic stamps. I had learned how to make some stamps, but I wasn't as good at it. The Tsoodle family had given me some stamps. I think stamps at that time, there was a place called Indian Jewelry Supply that sold stamps, so I could buy a stamp for four dollars. I would gradually build up my collection, and the stamps were my paintbrushes in metal. Each one is like a character in an alphabet. Then when you assemble them in a certain way, it lets you speak about 25:00something. I started adding stories and symbolism, using the characters of this alphabet in stamps. It all followed that basic circle, square, triangle pattern. One of the things that the guy who taught me, Johnson Bobb, he was very into sawing things out. He had told me, "Don't copy my work," because other people had copied him. He was a little defensive about it, so he told me not to copy his work.

I went the other direction. I didn't do anything that had any kind of piercing or any saw work. I started stamping the coins because I loved collecting coins when I was younger. That was my canvas, was a coin. I used these stamps, and that's how I started. I started going to the Albuquerque Flea Market and made some more friends downtown in the Plaza in Albuquerque. I actually got a 26:00vendor's license and started selling jewelry there on the sidewalk. Then I would do conferences, so those were my first shows. Learning the Indian conference network, that let me travel to Oklahoma, and that let me expand. I would go do powwows, and then started--. You asked what shows. I was told, "You can't get into Indian Market. You have to be denied for at least five years before you can ever get in," and I believed that. I thought, "These guys know what they're talking about." I got in on my first year.

Little Thunder: How many years into doing this were you at that point, a couple years?

Johnson: I started making jewelry in, I think, 1989. I was in that circuit, and I did a powwow. Santa Fe Indian Market, or SWAIA [Southwestern Association for 27:00Indian Arts], put on a powwow in 1993, and so I was part of that. Then I got into Indian Market in '95. I was too scared to apply. See, that's what gets me, is I believed what they said. I didn't apply until later, not realizing everybody's story is different. I don't have to have their experience. I can have my own experience. I didn't know that then.

Little Thunder: What would you consider your breakthrough show, then? Would it have been Indian Market?

Johnson: Yeah, I think if you're talking in terms of a show, and that commercial aspect, coming onto an Indian arts scene. I call it the ribbon-chasing era. You start getting some recognition from a judge, whether that judge is another Native artist or they're a collector, a museum professional, and then people 28:00regard that ribbon. I started understanding how that affects your standing and recognition. I think someone like my uncle John, he wasn't recognized, but we regarded him. I didn't put all my stock into what a ribbon or that kind of award winning brings. I had a small era of ribbon hunting. I've got a box of ribbons, and I got a few--. I won Best of Show at Red Earth. I was a fellowship winner at Santa Fe Indian Market. One of the things we'd talk about is having a ribbon shirt, physically attaching your ribbons to a ribbon shirt. You tease people about their ribbon shirt, "Is that a First Place?" If it was red, "You're number two, right?" (Laughter)

That was my thoughts about coming onto the scene and joining that circuit of Santa Fe Indian Market, the Heard Museum in Phoenix. There were several shows, like Litchfield Park, Pueblo Grande in December in Phoenix. There's a circuit, and then you start to understand the bigger conferences, all the AISES [American Indian Science and Engineering Society] conferences. I used to make the pin, handmade pins for AISES. I would be in my little studio, hammering each one of those little lines, and then setting in a little coral, or a little turquoise, or a black onyx in there, to sell at the AISES conference. I was making those one at a time. I thought, "There's got to be a better way," so that was when I started casting. I figured if it's a corporate account, they're more concerned about the price. They don't care about some guy, sweaty and laboring. They just 30:00want what they want.

Little Thunder: The business part of it is hard, isn't it? I remember that your wife traveled with you, too, to a number of shows. How did you figure out the business part?

Johnson: I'm still figuring it out because it changes, the dynamics. You can never just be one thing. It goes back to, "My experience isn't your experience." To say I've ever figured it out, shoot, it's changing. It's changing now, and so I want to make a point to be adaptable. My primary interest is my family, so take care of that artistically, being able to teach them, hand them something. I've always said I want them to have something to work with as a backup, as a base. They can go do whatever they want in life. As an artist, it's my 31:00obligation. I want them to have the tools to find their own way, artistically. They're going to have different skills than me, different motivations, and I want to show them how to put it into a medium they want. Figuring out the business part of it, that's another hat. I like something that Suzan Harjo told me.

She says, "When I don't feel like writing something but I got to pay the bills and get in there, I put on a green shirt." I'll go put on a green shirt. We talk about that as the green shirt phenomenon. Sometimes you just got to go to work and make a paycheck. Making business happen in jewelry can be a lot of things. It can be wholesaling because you don't want to deal with the public or you don't have time. I've got friends on the res; they don't want to deal with 32:00people. They want to sit at home and create and let someone at a trading post or a dealer handle it for them. I always thought, "Shoot, you can get retail." I'm a good talker, so I'll get out there and talk it up and make time to travel. I enjoy those parts of it, but now with the introduction of the internet and websites--.

Little Thunder: You have a nice looking one.

Johnson: Yeah, it's always changing. I just changed it from a CSS file format to a WordPress site, and that needs to be developed. In 1995, I was one of the first Natives to sell my artwork on the internet. We had an old-time computer, which was new, cutting-edge at the time. We set up a computer in the center of the Plaza. There were several Natives that had received a grant to do 33:00technology. I was the focal point of that project, so they used my artwork. We knew each other from AISES, and we set up--. My website had flashing feather icons that would wave. I had hair ties and bracelets and different things on this website, kennethjohnson.com. There was a scientist from Los Alamos who had my domain name, even that early. No one wanted that stuff then, but I had worked hard to get mine. You asked me about what does it take to adjust in business, and I wanted to innovate in that format. I didn't want to open a store because opening a store, you had to get up and be there every day. I didn't want to do 34:00that. I want to create and travel or take care of people, custom-wise, and the internet let me do that.

Little Thunder: Now, you have dealt with a couple of galleries over the years. What was your gallery breakthrough, do you think?

Johnson: I never feel like I've broken through with a gallery. I've had some good galleries. This year, who were my galleries? I dealt with galleries in Albuquerque, like Wright's [Indian Art] Gallery or Weems Gallery. They're really good. I always liked Weems. Mary Ann Weems is the owner, and she's so enthusiastic. I would always go up and twirl her around. My wife teases me. She says, "You're just going to go twirl them around and sell jewelry." "Yeah, that's what works. I'll do that." She said, "As long as they write that check, 35:00I'm fine with that." (Laughter) I dealt with some galleries there locally, and then I started expanding a little bit.

Currently, I'm with Garland's [Indian Jewelry] in Sedona, with Redstick Gallery, which is a new gallery through Muscogee Creek Nation. It's an online and a physical gallery there in Okmulgee, Oklahoma, also Shiprock Trading, here in Santa Fe. There's a store called Ortega's on the Plaza, right there on the corner. I used to sell--I forget the other place. It's now called Malouf, but it used to be--. Can't remember the name of that. I didn't rely very heavily on galleries, but a lot of my friends make the meat of their living through galleries. It enables them to not have to deal with people. See, that leads to 36:00where I'm at. I'm a custom guy. I make unique things, and that's enabled me to work with the Supreme Court justices.

Little Thunder: When did you start getting into Southeastern designs?

Johnson: I became aware of the depth of history, the richness of what's here in the Southwest. I mentioned I like knowing how things happen. When I was a kid, I would watch water run down a hill, and it would start to gather. Then it would get stronger and stronger, and it would make its own path a lot of times. We'd play in that, making dams or putting boats down it, and I was fascinated how these little streams occurred. Thinking about the art of the Southwest and 37:00learning, these styles came up from somewhere, somehow, and they've evolved. There's the sacred. There's the traditional. There's the commercial. There's the aesthetic that matches your couch, but there's a role of all these things. Understanding that the Harvey House era really shaped a big part of the commerce here, not only the art because art preexisted all that, but how it started supporting families by them selling it to tourists. That's through the railroads coming through. You asked me about the Southeast. All that bypassed us. A lot of our culture--.

I'm involved in a canoe project for the Muscogee canoe project. Our people's 38:00removal from the forced walk from Alabama and Georgia to Oklahoma, we weren't going to carry any canoes. A lot of things didn't make it, but I know that we have such a rich, rich heritage and rich history. I can see it in the resilience of people. Then I started looking into the archaeology. I've seen pottery, the woven mats, the textiles, and in the old metalwork, the old copper-embossed pieces, and all the shell work, hand-carved, then starting to understand part of survival really depended on the ability to make these things, spiritually, 39:00culturally. That's before the introduction of other cultures into our culture. I started looking at it and studying it physically, and I could tell--. I received a fellowship from the National Museum of the American Indian to study. I received a fellowship from SWAIA, and those were integral in my study, the formal studying process. I can consider a lot of things by knowledge, being around, but there's so much more to know, once you delve deeper.

Little Thunder: It allowed you to travel.

Johnson: I got to travel just to focus on that and develop the architecture of--. I started to understand the eras these belonged to, that Seminole 40:00patchwork is of this era, and that the introduction of tourism affected things and survival, which is a basic thing. There's spiritual survival. There's cultural survival. There's just--you need to eat. That's why it's important for me to provide for my family, not just my nuclear family but also my extended family. We still regard my uncle John Walkingstick who created in an era, the ʼ70s, of painting. That was just something that was cool. It was one of the things he did. He was a real character, but that wasn't a nine-to-five. He got to express, and move on, and do everything else, and come back to this. It was like an orbit. You got to have that as one of the things to get by. I tell people it's a good thing, and you can interpret it how you want it. Our 41:00ancestors did it then. Time was a different thing. Materials and technique were different, but it was still an expression.

Me, coming out to the Southwest, seeing the breadth and history of all this jewelry, pottery, weavings, and then the whole art market scene, wow, I was amazed. I thought, "I'm not from the Southwest, so what is my role?" I can replicate what they do, but it didn't seem sincere to me. Didn't seem real. Yes, I could do this. Then I had to go back and learn our own iconography, and 42:00what's--. One of the important things of going back into the Southeast motifs, some time I spent in Florida, I love Seminole patchwork. By the way, I'm Seminole. I was always asking--like my grandma. I would pester my grandma. I would pester these ladies out in the Everglades. "What's this mean? What's that mean? What's this patchwork?" They always started off saying, "This one looks like telephone poles. This one looks like crawdad. This one looks like sawgrass." I remember that resonated, "It looks like." It was just an association. It was not a definitive, "This is this, and this is always only 43:00that." It gave me the freedom to start to interpret things.

I understood, "Okay, I have a lot to say." Referring back to those stamps I started collecting, I would put a stamp in the center and do a stamp design that radiates out from that. To me, that represented a word. If you throw a rock into a pond or water, and you see the ripples go out, that's like a word. If you say, "I love you," those are good words that go out. Let's say you have a harsh word or a strong word or a power word, throw that in. They're like sharp words. That's how I'm able to talk in my jewelry and recognize the gist of things, strong symbols like sun, moon, star. My oldest daughter, her middle name is Star, [Seneca Sarah Star]. I think about Muscogee iconography, pottery. I'll 44:00weave that into telling an emergence story. Like I said earlier, I grew up at Indian schools. I didn't grow up traditional. I've had to go back and re-approach many people and experiences, and study pieces to get my own understanding. It's not going to be handed to me, so I have to go get it. That's how I get on top of a mountain so I get a better view.

Little Thunder: Talk a little bit about the canoe project, and then we'll talk a little bit about your techniques and processes. Talk about the canoe project.

Johnson: The canoe project is something I happened into. Many years ago, I met a 45:00gentleman named Mike Berryhill. Mike Berryhill is somebody who, he's a Muscogee Creek person living in Oklahoma. His desire, his dream is to see the revival of the traditional bow back to our people. I befriended him and went to some bow shoots. He decided he liked me somehow. I don't know. I remember one day here in Santa Fe, a man named Judge Moore, Patrick Moore, came out, and he says, "I'm coming to Santa Fe. I need to visit you." "Okay." Rang the doorbell. When I opened the door, he handed a bow to me, and he says, "Mike Berryhill knows your 46:00height, the length of your shoulder, your arm span, and he created this for you. Each one takes at least a year, sometimes two years to make, and the collecting of the wood, the right type of wood from the right part of the tree, and he created this for you." Someone spent time on me. They focused in on me. Wow. Going back to the Muscogee canoe project, what do bows have to do with canoes? I saw on the internet, on Facebook, this guy named John-John Brown, who was--.

He had gotten a tree. He worked for the Muscogee Creek Nation. He got a two-hundred-year-old tree from Alabama. They cut it in half. They carved a canoe 47:00to leave in Alabama, and they did, near Horseshoe Bend area. Then they took the other half and took it to Oklahoma, and there he was, carving it. I saw all these pictures of everybody gathering around it. Kids, everybody regarded this canoe. It was very attractive. It drew people in. People wanted to touch it and figure out how to work. What's this about? I saw security guards. I saw tourists. People would visit to check on the status of how it's going. I saw this. I was watching this online. Then I went to Oklahoma for a--. I was in Okmulgee, and I was at one of the Cvkotakse Seccvlke, or Bow [Shooters Society], bow shoots right there next to the tribal complex in Okmulgee. I asked John-John Brown, I said, "How's that canoe project going?" He said, "Oh, well, it's going slow." -- It had made sense to me in my travels that there are canoe people, 48:00canoe cultures everywhere else.

Has he connected with the local tribes, the Cherokee, Chickasaw? What about Seminoles? They got a canoe in the tribal seal. He says, "No, I haven't really. There's nobody really to connect with. They don't have programs going on." I was aware of an event called Paddle to Nisqually. There's the Nisqually reservation in Washington State, and they were hosting a canoe gathering. The canoe cultures there, there's a lot, based on travel. They would decorate their canoe paddles with their tribal signs, and that represented who they were. When you approach 49:00land or approach shore on a canoe and you pull up your canoe paddle, it represents who you are. I said, "We should connect with these people," me and my big mouth. (Laughter) I didn't know John-John that well at that time. He says, "Yeah, we should." I made a few phone calls, and we got--. The way those tribes up there regard canoes is it's family-based, and they represent Nations. John-John Brown and I went to Paddle to Nisqually. Was it 2016, 2015?

Little Thunder: Twenty-fifteen, I think, maybe.

Johnson: Yeah, it's all a blur. We were welcomed as representatives of Muscogee Nation, and we were privileged to pull with the Samish Nation in their canoe. We 50:00got to be a part of their process in their last day of their journey. Even approaching Nisqually is a big deal. We were on a support boat next to--. These canoes, they're big canoes. I think there were at least twelve people. There's twelve, maybe thirteen that are all pulling in this canoe, and you have one person in the back. It's the captain, guiding it. John-John Brown and I were on this support boat. It's a fishing boat, going nearby. If someone got tired or if they had a need for anything like water, you could stop and change people out or water. While we were going alongside, I said, "Man, this is really cool to be a part of." John-John said, "It was part of Mike Berryhill's original vision, not 51:00only for the return of the bow but also for the return of the traditional canoe." Man! My heart just, wow. I'm a part of something bigger.

I didn't mention it, but Mike Berryhill passed away. He passed the mantle of leadership to John-John Brown. When John-John mentioned that to me, I realized it's not an accident that I'm involved. I understand I'm a part of something. I don't have full, clear vision of why, or where this is going, but I need to take it up. The same way the bow affected me, whoa, powerful. So is the canoe. -- This is the first carved canoe. (Gestures) It's a replica from that first canoe 52:00that was carved out in Alabama. John-John gave this to me last week. He was here in New Mexico for a conference, and it was something pretty special to me. He said something that was really impactful, that this tree was growing when our people were still there, living. To have this element, I think it's important. A canoe, while maybe on the face of it is not relevant to this time of cars and airplanes, that has to do with culture. Speaking of a canoe has to do with language, has to do with our old songs that we need to reclaim and reform, remake.

It has to do with health and wellness, the pulling of a canoe. You have to get ready to pull a canoe. You can't just get out there. You're going to be sore the 53:00next day if you're not in shape to pull one of these. In art, I made a canoe paddle that was from this original wood of the first canoe. This is the first canoe that had been carved in 150, 160 years. They weren't carried on the Trail of Tears or on that Trail of Suffering, so these are positive things that are, I think, good for our people. A lot of people need something to regard. They need to be about something. I think the American culture is about getting stuff and working at a job that you don't like. Instead, yeah, we have a lot to draw from, positive things about our people and communities, and so being a part of that, 54:00the Muscogee canoe project reminds us of these things. We're all on this journey to learn, the same way that I have to learn to pull a bow and shoot, and make arrows. This canoe journey--.

Little Thunder: You've made a paddle.

Johnson: We made a paddle. One of the emblems, that's what I created here. This is a wax carving of the paddle that I created as a thank you to the Nations in Washington. We were invited by Lummi Nation. We pulled with Samish Nation. One of my other friends, Upper Skagit, they were very welcoming and accommodating, so I created a paddle. John-John carved a paddle, and then I decorated it. What was really cool was I started decorating with the Southeast motifs, and it turned out to be, it started to look like a duck. I haven't carved any duck 55:00designs. This is new to me. I call my cousin Joe [Sulphur], and I called different people. I said, "What about ducks in Muscogee culture?" Ducks are very powerful because they transit the sky. They fly; they're in water; and they're underwater. They're very powerful to transit these three worlds, and when you pull a canoe paddle, it does that. That was a good sign. I'm in the process of making this into jewelry. I'm a jeweler. I can't help it; I got to make this into jewelry. (Laughter)

We got to visit and connect with other artists like Ed NoiseCat. He made a really cool paddle. We're working to do a canoe paddle project that encompasses--. We went in February 2017, went down to Tampa, Florida, and 56:00visited with Bobby Henry. Bobby Henry is an eighty-one-year-old medicine man. That guy is fresh off knee surgery, and he still outruns all his people down there. That guy is a ball of energy. His cell phone is always blowing up. He's a funny guy. We went to his place, and we carved a series of--. We met with another Seminole named Pedro Zepeda, and he had gotten a piece of cypress. Cypress is hard to get because it takes a long time to grow and a lot of it's been harvested. You can't find old-growth cypress, but Pedro was able to get us a plank of cypress. He brought it to Bobby Henry's place, and we were able to cut three canoe paddles out of that. Now, I went there with Kelly Haney, someone 57:00who I've known as a little boy. He was there with us, along with Creek citizen George Alexander, who's a painter.

He's currently studying in Italy now. Proud of that kid. You have an elder; I'm the medium; and you have the youth. We're carving these canoe paddles there in Tampa. Pedro Zepedo took us down to Big Cypress where he works and works with the museum, and he's carving his paddle. Kelly Haney took his paddle back to Norman, Oklahoma. He's carved in an egret, beautiful egret, inlaid with glass, so he's got a very unique piece. The paddle I carved, I inlaid with copper and pink mussel shell. That duck has a pink mussel shell eye and copper accents in the weavings in it. There are things that are elemental of Muscogee culture. 58:00They're powerful. We're using the canoe paddle as a canvas, and everyone will interpret it differently. Also, got a canoe paddle going to Toni Scott, who lives in Los Angeles, and she's an accomplished carver. She does incredible, incredible installation works, and we're excited to build a collage of these canvases to talk about our own experiences as artists.

Little Thunder: That's going to be wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about your process and techniques, especially, I think, maybe the CAM stuff, a little bit for a layman, how that has helped shape the jewelry that you do now.

Johnson: I use computer-aided design, which is CAD. Then there's computer-aided manufacturing, is CAM, and I do both. I use a software called Matrix. I got 59:00involved with Matrix. I got to know the people who ran the software out of Moline, Illinois, and they have good people. I follow that program. I know there's other programs out there, but this is the one I'm committed to. It's like being a Ford or Chevy guy. Once you start off there, you know the nomenclature. I work with that software. It basically is controversial because the impression is it's mass production. In reality, it's a hammer, and it's a tool. I've been working with it for about nine years, so it takes time, nine years to learn how to press the button in a certain way and to help create digital designs. Again, I've worked with Enoch Kelly Haney, producing his 60:00designs, his large sculptures into jewelry. It's exciting, because I get to interpret it--.

Little Thunder: Wow, yes, because I know he works with--yes, wow.

Johnson: I get to interpret his pieces into a 3D context. In 2010, the Muscogee Creek Nation purchased the Creek Council House. The leadership at the time asked me, "Can you make a commemorative coin?" I used 3D to create the design, and I got to incorporate Southeast motifs into that and to recognize the time. I went to Sequoyah High School on Gifted and Talented Day to do a demonstration of how I used computer-aided design, which was a lot newer when I did it seven years ago. I don't know what they thought. They never invited me back, so I don't know 61:00what I did. (Laughter) It was exciting to share the technology and the technique for the project. In the past, I've created the crowns for the Seminole Nation princesses. They have a Senior Miss, Miss Seminole, Junior Miss, and Little Miss, so there's four crowns. I have a picture of my daughter wearing the Little Miss crown. She's all cute. She's fifteen now. She was a little girl. Anyways, I used computer-aided design to recreate the seal on that.

Then I hand-fabricated the elements around that, but what was important is that those crowns are--. What's important is to get the tribal seal because you're representing the Nation, but the elements is that tribal seal sits inside of a canoe. If you ever get a chance to see the Seminole Nation crowns, the seal sits 62:00inside of a canoe. That's a shape. It's not obvious. When you look for it, you'll see it. Then there's swirls around it, which represent wind. Inside of each one is coral, represents the blood of the veterans, not just US military, but all veterans within our Nation, that fought for our people to survive and be here. When those princesses go out, they have all this symbology. There's some copper elements and stars and suns. I use CAD in my approach to achieve a project, and I see it as another tool. It's not a replacement for any kind of skill. It takes way more skill on my part. I think a lot of people, they see it as a mechanization of the industry, but it still has to come from here, in here, on some level. I'm confident; I embrace it; and I'll do more.

Little Thunder: It gives you a lot of options when you're customizing things for people, too.

Johnson: Oh, yeah, I got a lot to do.

Little Thunder: I overheard you talking to a collector who already had a piece of yours, and therefore, there's a through line that they like. I was looking on your website, and I saw the cognac diamond, which is so pretty. It's such a pretty color. I was wondering a little bit about some of your more unusual materials. Platinum, I know you work with platinum, and those things are expensive.

Johnson: Yeah, I like to work with finer things. That's part of why I work under a microscope. I did learn. There's the gist of things, when you can be real gestural in work, but I keep going back toward finer things, the finer design, 64:00and refining what I do. I've done some rough work, and I like to continue to refine it into not only a finer design but finer materials. I think it can be appreciated there. Museum of Art and Design had an exhibition called Changing Hands, which was really cool because I had created this--. It was a four-tier, 18-karat yellow gold gorget, and it told a creation story of these turtles. Each design was connected. Under the turtle shell would be the motif to the next gorget, which connected to the motif under the turtle shell to the next gorget.

That's how the pieces were all related. It told the creation story in these symbols. I used 18-karat yellow gold with platinum coins for the turtle shells. 65:00It had a mechanism to release them, and you can wear them as individual pendants. I used, also, a peridot from San Carlos Apache reservation. These stones all had different cuts: swirl cut, check cut, brilliant cut. It was really cool to see how fine you can make it. I felt that it gave appreciation, but in that exhibit, they put this 18-karat platinum next to something made out of bottle caps or concrete or coat hangers. It still gave the essence of what the artist wanted to express, and in that right context, you could appreciate it. It was great. I loved that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Yeah, that was an important show, and that was an amazing piece. Did you then sell it later?

Johnson: Yes, I got more to make.

Little Thunder: Yeah, definitely. (Laughs)

Johnson: I'm restless. I got a lot to create. In fact--.

Little Thunder: Gorgets are one of the things that you're known for, I think.

Johnson: Yeah, the gorget is a symbol of achievement. It represents somebody who either negotiated or was recognized by the people as a leader, or they took it in battle. That's the old times. I think the modern gorgets are symbols of a European armor, like the Roman armor, last vestiges of Roman armor, but they were also pre-contact. We had crescent shapes and round shapes, a lot of copper and shell, mostly shell, even stones. I recognize that's another canvas to me.

Little Thunder: You've talked a little bit about the research that you've done and that you continue to do. Do you do any old-fashioned sketching?

Johnson: I sketch, yeah. They're so rough. I have to admire Allan Houser and the sketches he does. My apprentice and I--he's a Hopi guy named Emmett [Navakuku], and we met at this museum one time to go check out the Allan Houser exhibit. I was impressed that along with the original artwork he had sketches. I thought, "Man, my sketches are so rough. They'd never be frame-able." (Laughter) I sketch. I do a lot of sketches. I keep having to try to resolve it. I worked 68:00with another artist named Dan Lomahaftewa, late Dan Lomahaftewa. He was my best friend here in Santa Fe. I did a jewelry line with him. In fact, my wife was wearing it last night. It was a portal.

It represents a passage through, real classic Dan stuff. The jewelry sketches that Dan would submit had a lot of shading. Jewelry is a little tougher to shade things. In a painting, you can get a lot of color and contrast. In jewelry, you have to have some line art to work from, and then start to build in your depths, and shades, heights. That was one of the issues I had working with him that I had to resolve, even in my own work. I have an idea. I'll sketch it, and I still have to achieve it in metal. Are those recessed lines? Are they raised lines? Is 69:00that an overlay? Have to figure out how to achieve that line in your work.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Johnson: Sometimes it's very urgent, like I got to do it now while the person is here. There's a sense of urgency that is really fun energy to work from, and it's desperate. You don't want to sit on it for too long because that opportunity can leave, if someone's getting married, or if someone's here in town, or if there's a "they've got to have it now" kind of thing. Other projects are different. It's a different energy. You get to ruminate on things you really want to draw out. There's one particular bracelet I made that I felt like I 70:00traveled inwardly to get the designs for this. It's a bracelet. I have it here, if you want to see it. Yeah, let me pull it up.

Little Thunder: Okay, you want to grab it real quick? --

Johnson: This is a bracelet. It's 18-karat, tufa cast. What I did is, the format, these are sun symbols, and the client, he had been buying gemstones online. He says, "Can you do something with these?" I got to arrange, rearrange, and keep playing with these shapes that incorporated Muscogee designs. This took years to do, even though, physically, I can do this quickly. In reality, to do it justice for him--. What was really cool, he was patient, and he appreciated it because it had real energy that he got it. What I feel like is it allowed me 71:00to go travel artistically in my mind, to put these lines in this arrangement, in these spaces. That was part of the process, that sometimes there's urgency, and it feels really good and gratifying. Then you can move on. Other times, I felt like I was journeying to a mountain, and I really went deep to get these patterns. This is 2017 at the August Santa Fe New Market. A friend of mine, Pat Pruitt, he's Laguna Pueblo, and he won Best of Show. What he did is a CAD-designed steel--. I don't know all his materials, but he did a pot.

It won't hold water, but it's a really cool pot. He said it was the refinement of earlier designs, and that's what I feel about this. I get to go back. I have more skills to approach previous designs that were important to me that I traveled to go get. I was in the right place, right time, and the right understanding to be able to put these into metal. I related to what Pat said, that I want to go back and refine with new technology, materials, technique. Last fall, a Bulgarian master silversmith named Valentin Yotkov came to Santa Fe. There's a Choctaw artist who lives here in Santa Fe. His name is David McElroy. I guess he had already taken classes with him. He invited him over to 73:00his place to put on a workshop. A bunch of us Indian artists went over to David's house, and we took a class. I have more skills to incorporate into my work, which is repoussé. Previously, I had only been able to do flat-line art of patterns, or I could do it in 3D. I could realize things in 3D by wax carving or with a computer-aided design, but now I have another tool in my toolbox.

Little Thunder: That's so cool. Looking back on your career so far, what would you say has been one of the high points?

Johnson: I feel like I haven't even got there yet. Like I said, I'm restless to do more because I have a lot to draw from. I know making pieces for Kelly Haney's inauguration, that was an important piece. Being called upon by the 74:00Oklahoma State Supreme Court to make pieces for Justice Sonia Sotomayor. While showing at Santa Fe New Market, Ruth Bader Ginsburg walking by my booth and ordering a custom piece. Making special pieces for the Canadian Supreme Court Justice [Beverly] McLachlin. -- Working with our tribal chiefs, I made a piece for Wilma Mankiller, Charlie Soap. They came by my booth, and Muscogee Creek chiefs, Perry Beaver, George Tiger. Being able to say, "This is an important piece," and if you're going to be out there in a public profile, I like making a 75:00piece that has some gravity to it. When you're out there, you have something that's commensurate to your position.

Little Thunder: That's cool. How about a low point?

Johnson: I think when you feel like someone doesn't appreciate what you do. You put everything into something, and it goes over someone's head, or it goes right past them. They don't get it. I think connecting with your audience is critical. Some artists are never appreciated in their lifetime, and that's tough, man. I really respect people that continue to create. You don't always have to have a sale for it to be credible. I think our society does that. That's one part of 76:00it, but to know the importance of art on all these other levels, like I talked about with the canoe project. I don't know why I'm a part of that, but I know it's important. A low point can be when you don't have vision. If you abandon your art, that would be a true low point because you're not considering your calling.

I got stuff to do. That's why I'm restless. (Laughter) It's tough to say what was my best. I've got a lot of highlights. I think the low points are when you get bogged down in other details. I've read a really cool book. Any apprentice that works with me is assigned to read The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. He basically talks about any inspiration you have is like the sun. That sun will 77:00cast a shadow. If you follow that shadow, you're going away from what you're meant to do. If we recognize that, continue to work, make art, and motate on. That's in the book. You read it; you'll know what I'm talking about.

Little Thunder: That sounds great. I am going to read it. (Laughs) We're going to take a look at a couple of examples of your work here.

Johnson: All right, sounds good. --

Little Thunder: All right, Kenneth, you want to tell me a little bit about your work here?

Johnson: You said I don't have to jump in the shop, but you know me. I'm going to jump in the shop. I have to talk about this. This is a piece that has to do with Panther clan. This is a Seminole patchwork design. This is into a twenty Balboa coin. It's the world's largest coin. It has Seminole patchwork motif in a counterclockwise pattern. Down in Florida, the Panther clan is very powerful. I 78:00created this as a bling piece for a couple of my friends, Spencer and Zachary Battiest. They won a MTV Video Music Award for their protests involving the Standing Rock dispute. Anyways, while they're on stage with Taboo, I'm making them some Native bling.

Little Thunder: That's so cool, and the claws underneath.

Johnson: Yeah, they were designed as bear claws, but you know what? They're panther claws right now. (Laughter) Anyways, one of the other things I did was, because they won a MTV VMA, I made this little one. It's still in progress, but this is a statue of the Moon Man that they won, and I put a Seminole jacket onto the Moon Man. It's going to have a Seminole Tribe of Florida flag on it.

Little Thunder: That's cool, very cool. (Laughs)

Johnson: There's two brothers, so I'm making two of them. It will be inside of a gorget or something, some kind of bling. Hope it doesn't hurt nobody when 79:00they're swinging around. This piece is a silver inkwell, and it was done as a replica of the one that sits in the United States Capitol. This was originally commissioned by a congressman here in New Mexico, Steve Pearce. He wanted to give it as a gift to the King of Jordan. This piece, currently, this is the second of four. The first one is already in Washington, DC. If you've ever watched the State of the Union address, every president since 1819 has stood in front of this. In fact, the Speakers of the House have their portrait painted while sitting in front of this.

These are inkwells for treaty signing. You know how Indians love treaties! (Laughter) The eagle and the snakes, representing unity. I forgot the symbolism 80:00of that for this. That was a really cool project. This one, I call this our life symbol. It's a Creek knot. That's another informal name for it. It represents Muscogee Nation very well, so I'm basically making a motif out of it. I use it in rings, earrings. This is just one element of it. I'll be showing this in Washington, DC, for upcoming Muscogee Creek Nation Days in Washington, DC. These are examples of dime bead necklaces. Among Seminoles, they use dime bead necklaces when wearing traditional outfit.

Little Thunder: And with your stampings.

Johnson: Yeah, I stamp each dime. I leave the original dates, so these are all 81:00early 1906, 1907s. These are 1930s and ʼ40s bead necklaces. What distinguishes my work from, I think, some of the classic old work is I use high-end turquoise versus a Castle Dome turquoise. I use high-quality coral. A lot of times, these are done in glass beads, which are awesome, but like I said, sometimes I like to go finer.

Little Thunder: It's beautiful, the contrast between the dimes and the shell, the turquoise. Yeah, oh, they're fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today, Kenneth.

Johnson: Sure.

------- End of interview -------