Oral history interview with Adeline Ketcheshawna DuBois

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, March 22, [2017]and I'm interviewing Adeline Ketcheshawna DuBois [in Shawnee, Oklahoma] for the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Adeline, you're Sac and Fox, Shawnee, and Potawatomi?

DuBois: And Kickapoo.

Little Thunder: And Kickapoo. You were one of the early Native fashion designers here in Oklahoma, maybe best known for your ribbon shirts, and you were active in the markets from the late ʼ60s until maybe 2009. But you still can't retire because you keep getting requests for ribbon shirts and other clothing items, many of which have been worn by celebrities. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.

DuBois: Ketcheshawna DuBois. (Correcting pronunciation)

Little Thunder: DuBois. Thank you. Ketcheshawna DuBois. Where were you born, and 1:00where did you grow up? I think I gave the French pronunciation of [DuBois]. (Laughter) Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

DuBois: I was born at my grandfather's house, east of Meeker. He was Sac and Fox. I was born at home. I never could say my name, Adeline Ketcheshawna, and so I was always known as Tiny K. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: It's a mouthful! That's cute. So born at your grandfather's house. What did your folks do for a living, what kinds of work?

DuBois: It was just farm work. My father died when I was thirteen, but he had TB. I helped him all the time. We did move to Wichita and he worked at--what is that--.

Little Thunder: In the airplane industry.

DuBois: Yeah, yeah, Boeing.

Little Thunder: Oh, so you lived in Wichita a few years. What years? How old were you?

DuBois: Forty-one, forty-two, when the war started.

Little Thunder: Okay. Did you have any siblings, brothers or sisters?

DuBois: Two sisters and two brothers. They're all gone.

Little Thunder: You were close to your grandparents on that side?

DuBois: I was close to my grandfather.

Little Thunder: On your dad's side.

DuBois: On my mother's side. My grandmother's name was Dolly. She was Kickapoo. I always liked her, but then they were gone. My mother, wherever we went she had a sewing machine. She made us sit down and sew. I have the pattern that she made for us to sew on, and so I started sewing.

Little Thunder: This was you and your sisters. How early did you start sewing?

DuBois: I wasn't in school. (Laughter) I have that pattern around here somewhere. It's a dog. It's a quilt pattern, and you turn the raw edges under and sew it. It was so cute.

Little Thunder: You had that creative element there in your home. Were there any family or extended family who were involved with art or making things?

DuBois: No, I don't think anybody did anything except my mother. She sewed and made her clothes and everything because, you know, back then nobody wore jeans.

Little Thunder: Right, made your clothes for all of you.

DuBois: I just really liked that. Once I started sewing, after I got older, I liked that. When I was in the Air Force, I sewed everybody's stripes on, or if they had a tear in their clothes. They had a sewing machine there. I would sew everybody's little torn things, sew their stripes on and all of that. It was just something that I always did. I never did work. Well, I did work at Tinker Field one time for a little while. Then I got married and had all my kids. Then 6:00I had to sew.

Little Thunder: Well, back up just a little. What do you think your first experience was of seeing Native art?

DuBois: I never thought about it. You know, back then you just try to get by and live.

Little Thunder: As you were making your little quilt pillows with the dog image, were you also putting together things, maybe for a doll, or were you making your own little patterns? Were you that into it?

DuBois: No, no. Then all I thought about was that dog. Mama said, "Get this done."

Little Thunder: How about being around, (you've got this multi-tribal 7:00background) being around language very much growing up, spoken?

DuBois: It was always Indian, always. We didn't have anybody here, but I have some old pictures. We lived in Indian village west of Shawnee, the Kickapoo village, and it was Indian houses.

Little Thunder: People were speaking Kickapoo. You were around the language.

DuBois: Yeah, that was it. Then I had to go to school.

Little Thunder: Talk about that a little. That was there in Meeker at first?

DuBois: No, it was at Acme, a little country school west of Shawnee. That's where everybody went and had to walk to school. We walked a mile. But, see, I couldn't say my name. Grandpa always called me Tiny or called me Tiny K. When we'd come to Shawnee, I was always with Grandpa, and my mother went somewhere else and did all the shopping and all of that with my sister. My sister was older than me, and then I had a sister younger than me and two brothers younger than me.

Little Thunder: Did you enjoy school at Acme or not so much?

DuBois: Enjoyed school. I had a friend that always took care of me. She was--you 9:00know, you're in the first grade, and she was in the eighth grade. At recess she always took care of me. There was always somebody like that.

Little Thunder: Took you under her wing and made sure--. That's good. Did you have any subjects that you liked at school?

DuBois: I think I liked to write, learn how to write because they didn't teach you ABCs when you're at home. You go to school, and they're trying to teach you 10:00ABCs? Okay! So I tried to learn them, and then to meet other kids was always interesting.

Little Thunder: From different backgrounds.

DuBois: Yeah, but over there at Acme, there was a lot of Indian kids there because that area was Kickapoo. Dad, he worked at the golf course not too far from Acme. My sister and I, we always walked to school. We walked through the ditches, woods.

Little Thunder: Right. Did you like drawing in school, or did you have the 11:00opportunity to do any of that?

DuBois: I liked drawing, but I don't think we ever did much.

Little Thunder: Then what happened after Acme? What was the next place that you either went to school or the next move?

DuBois: Gosh, I didn't know we was going to do this. You know, after you get eighty, you can't think.

Little Thunder: That's okay. You don't have to be eighty to think, "Hmm, what was the--."

DuBois: We went to McLoud. After McLoud--.

Little Thunder: You were living near the town of McLoud, or are you in McLoud?

DuBois: Where did we live? We lived in a house close to the Kickapoo village, and the bus came by and picked us up because we went to Dale one time. Maybe that was where we went, to Dale. We went to Acme, Dale, McLoud, Harrah.

Little Thunder: Harrah's, like, high school? Is that the high school?

DuBois: Yeah, it was after we came back from Kansas and after the war, went to Harrah.

Little Thunder: Do you remember living in Kansas and your impressions, because that was a big culture change in Wichita.

DuBois: Yes, yes, and I really learned how to play ball.

Little Thunder: Softball?

DuBois: Yeah, got to playing ball. I thought that was just kind of fun. Gosh, I think I was fourth grade. I probably lived up there two years, something like that, '41, '42.

Little Thunder: Were you playing a position that you especially liked?

DuBois: I liked shortstop. When Dad was able to, we had softball games at our 14:00house because we had a ball diamond. Everybody came in a wagon with their horses pulling them and came, and we played ball every Sunday.

Little Thunder: How fun.

DuBois: Dad would pitch, and everybody played, old, young, whatever. Every Sunday we always played ball. I loved playing ball. What was the best thing, when I was in the Air Force, I was in Baltimore, and the Orioles came to town. I went to every ball game they had. They got a bus to take everybody to the 15:00ballpark whenever the ball games were going on, so I got to see every ball game. I played basketball when I was in the Air Force up there. I said, "I can't play basketball. I never played basketball." My sister did; she was real good. They said, "Well, you know the game." They had these two real giant, tall girls. They said, "You know the game. We're going to have these two girls playing forward. You just throw the ball to them." So I did. We went all over the East Coast--

Little Thunder: My goodness!

DuBois: --either flying or on the bus, like to New York City or down south, past Washington, DC, and down to Virginia, all around the coast there. Just played 16:00ball. I thought that was so fun. You could see the country. I never saw a place like Limestone, Maine. It's way up there in that little corner.

Little Thunder: How did you end up in the Air Force?

DuBois: I had this friend that says, "I want to join the Air Force. Would you go to Oklahoma City with me?"

Little Thunder: This is right after high school?

DuBois: Yeah, because we got a job at--oh, what's the name of that place there in Shawnee? Anyway, they went out of business. All us Indian girls were working there. She says she wanted to join the Air Force. Back then, you had to get on the bus and go to Oklahoma City. We did that. Went up there and went to the post 17:00office and took those tests. She failed, and I passed! (Laughter) My mother sat there for a long time with this real mad look on her face, and I didn't say anything. All this stuff came in the mail, this big envelope, and said I passed and to be there at this certain time. Then pretty soon she says, "If that's what you want to do, we'll take you up there." There I was. I didn't want to tell her, "No, no, no, I don't want to go!"

Little Thunder: It hadn't been your idea, and you didn't really know what to expect.

DuBois: She took me up there. They said to be on that train. Had a place for me 18:00to sleep, one of those nice places to sleep on a train, going down to San Antonio. I went down there. I got down there, and I thought, "Oh, gosh, I'm not going to be able to do this."

Little Thunder: Because it was basic training and kind of rough.

DuBois: Yeah! Everybody was telling me everything that I was going to have to do. "Oh, my goodness, I won't be able to do that," because I was just a little, little girl. I weighed 101 when I was a senior. Everybody was bigger than me. Even my little sister was bigger than me. I went down there, and I told myself, "I'm not going to believe anything anybody tells me." I got down there and this 19:00one guy in the mess hall says, "Is anybody from Oklahoma?" "Yes, I am." He said, "There was an earthquake up there." I thought, "I don't believe this." Then I got a letter from my mother. She said there was an earthquake. (Laughter)

Everybody told me everything I was going to have to do, those ten-mile marches and KP and cleaning and everything, putting a gas mask on and going through that gas chamber. I got down there, and I got to playing ball. I would say, "First 20:00batter!" They'd let me be first batter because I was so short and little. I stayed in bats the whole time. They made me play and work up. They made me start from the end there in the outfield and work up. I'd work up and stay in bats the rest of the time. I just played ball and had so much fun. Never had to go through the gas chamber; never had to go on those ten-mile hikes.

Little Thunder: Because you were an athlete, and you were busy with the games?

DuBois: No, I don't know what happened. Everybody told me I was going to have to do that, but I didn't have to.

Little Thunder: What was the hardest part of it?

DuBois: They said the weather or something, you know, or the gas chamber's broke. It was something like that. We were marching one time, and being short, I 21:00was way in the back there, looking at everybody marching along there, trying to march. Their heads was just bobbing up and down. I got absolutely hysterical. I just could not help it. They stopped the--whatever her name was, stopped and said, "This person, row ten and fourth person over," or something. Everybody says, "Ketch, that's you." I had to go out and see what she wanted. She made me march by myself. She said, "What is the matter with you?" I said, "I was absolutely hysterical watching those heads bob up and down." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: From that perspective.

DuBois: They made me do that. The last time, the last week of basic training, the CO [commanding officer] called me in. Everybody says, "Ketch, the CO wants to see you." I went over there and did all I was supposed to and sat down there. She said, "The reason why I called you in was because I want you to play softball for the Air Force." I said, "Where will I be stationed, Ma'am?" She said, "Here in San Antonio." I said, "No." She said, "What?" I said, "No." "Why?" "Because everybody talks Mexican to me." She goes, "Oh, okay." Anyway, 23:00they sent me to Cheyenne, Wyoming. Went over there for tech school. I really liked that and got to go to the Frontier Days, Cheyenne Frontier Days Rodeo. That was lots of fun, and being a clerk typist--.

Little Thunder: Is that what you focused on in tech school?

DuBois: Yeah. They throwed in a little supply there since Tinker Field was the closest that you could get a job over there. After that they sent me to Baltimore. "Baltimore? There's no base in Baltimore." It was an Army base. The Air Force worked downtown in these big buildings, nice buildings, so I went up there.

Little Thunder: They had their Air Force team there?

DuBois: Yes. It was a research and development command. I was there for about a month, and I was working in budget and accounting. They said, "Ketch, the AG wants to see you." I thought, "Oh, my goodness, what did I do?" I went up there to see him, and it was Colonel Cooper from Shawnee, Gordon Cooper's dad.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow, small world.

DuBois: He talked to me. Anything that he could do to help me, just let him know, or he would know, and he did. My step-father was sick. I sat down at my 25:00desk, (my mother wrote me a letter) and I cried. They told the AG. They must have, because I got a flight home on a B-24. I didn't know not everybody could do that. They said, "How did you manage to get a flight home?" I said, "I don't know. I was busy thinking about my step-father." He was a nice man. When he passed away about two weeks later, my boss asked me if I wanted to go home. I said, "No, I already told him goodbye," so I didn't go home. It was interesting. 26:00I look back on it and see what happened. Oh, my goodness, it was just--.

Little Thunder: You were watched out for there, too.

DuBois: But I had a good time and come home. I worked at Tinker Field.

Little Thunder: Once in a while, you mentioned, you're sewing somebody's insignia on for them, but that's all the sewing you're doing at this point.

DuBois: Yeah, I was busy playing ball.

Little Thunder: Worked at Tinker. How did you meet your husband, Larry?

DuBois: Had all these things happen to me, and then I moved to Meeker. That was 27:00a bad time of my life, except that my kids and I had a really good time. I had Paul and John and Alice. We moved to Meeker, and I started sewing for people. It was everything from weddings to, in school, all the cheerleaders and pep club, and princess for this and that and everything. They even got my daughter to be the little flower girl.

Little Thunder: And you could be at home with your kids, your young kids, when 28:00you were working.

DuBois: Yes. I had a treadle sewing machine. A friend of mine, she says, "I want you to take that sewing machine in. I'm going to take you to town, and we're going to get this turned into an electric sewing machine." And she did.

Little Thunder: That's a lot of work to be doing that with a treadle.

DuBois: Yes, yes, but I was used to it.

Little Thunder: Strong legs.

DuBois: I had a good time sewing, just sewing everything. Then I got to doing ribbon shirts.

Little Thunder: How did that happen? I mean, you were occasionally doing Indian clothing for people who requested it. You were doing some commissions for [powwow] princesses, but how did you get into the idea of maybe doing some more, almost getting into Native fashion stuff?

DuBois: At that time, it was easy because everybody wanted--they wore those 29:00shirts all the time. When I got to sewing, I thought, "I can do that." I made one for my kids, for my boys. I started doing that, and people found out. There I was, making those shirts and Indian dresses and shawls and whatever.

Little Thunder: You came from the perfect background in a way with the ribbon work and appliqué background.

DuBois: I had an aunt that gave me all her old patterns, besides my mother's old patterns. I still have them around here and use those. It was just all there to 30:00be used.

Little Thunder: What was one of your favorite things to make during that time, your favorite clothing item to make?

DuBois: Probably the ribbon shirts.

Little Thunder: You were creative with them. You didn't just stick to some of the more traditional forms of ribbon shirt. Can you talk about that a little? You did some experimenting later on with your--.

DuBois: Yeah, after a while you do the same thing over and over and over. You want to do something different or even a different kind of fabric. That was always interesting. When you get to sewing, you just want to do everything or something different. "How will this look?"

Little Thunder: When you got your materials, did you tend to try to stock up at 31:00sales or did you ask people? You pretty much chose the materials. You didn't have people necessarily bring their own.

DuBois: No, they brought their own because I was on welfare at that time. They brought their own fabric, and it was all right. Adding to that, my sewing really helped us along there. When my daughter started to school, she had a new dress for a month. My boys, they just wore t-shirts, but after a while I started making them shirts. They really liked that. My son would wear his ribbon shirt to school until he just wore it out. I've got it in the trunk in there. I'd ask him if he wanted a new one, and he said, "No, I'll just wear this one." I asked 32:00him he wanted it not too long ago, and he says, "No, you keep it." It was interesting. This one little girl, my cousin's little granddaughter, she wanted a new dress. She had one that was two-pieced and had kind of a little tummy sticking out there. Those dresses don't fit good on those kids, so I made her that dress there that hung down straight. She put that on; she would not take it off. I think I made all those little Kickapoo girls' dresses. You're thinking about sewing.

Little Thunder: Right. When did you do your first Native art market, and how did 33:00you get the idea of doing a show? Did somebody say to you, "Well, you ought to take your clothes and sell them in the market"?

DuBois: I think the--where did I go? I know I did a show for the Kickapoos.

Little Thunder: You did a fashion show for the tribe in your early days? That's way more work than just sewing. Can you talk about getting your models and deciding who's going to go first?

DuBois: Yeah, I decided, "We'll get somebody to model." Whenever you have a skirt with elastic in it but have all the ribbon work done on that, just say, 34:00"If they got a blouse this color, wear it."

Little Thunder: Right, so they can model the skirts.

DuBois: Then the skirts will fit everybody since they have elastic in the waist. Indian clothes did not have elastic in the waist. You always had to put them over there and pin them.

Little Thunder: You did do a fashion show for the American Indian Symposium, I remember, when it was starting in some of the early days. Was that the first time you were around other Native fashion people who were making clothing but not just making clothing for powwows or something? They were doing more fashion statements.

DuBois: I had this--what was her name, from Miami? What was her name?

Little Thunder: Ardina Moore.

DuBois: Yeah, we did fashion shows together.

Little Thunder: You met her at a show and became friends?

DuBois: Yeah, or at Red Earth, probably. Seems like I did a lot of fashion shows for Red Earth and did one in Santa Fe. Then those ladies that had me make the shawls for the ballerinas, what was that?

Little Thunder: You made shawls for the Five Indian Ballerinas, who might've 36:00come in at the time that the mural was finished, is what I'm thinking. It might've been Betty Price or in conjunction with the Oklahoma Arts Council, probably.

DuBois: Yes, because the fashion show was up there at that one building that nobody ever went there for a show.

Little Thunder: Right. It was probably in conjunction with the opening of that mural is what I'm thinking. That's a wonderful picture you showed me of the ballerinas with their shawls.

DuBois: There's the picture the ballerinas signed for me. They were all so nice. It was interesting to meet those ladies.

Little Thunder: Did Ardina give you some tips? Did she take pictures of models wearing her clothing? You decided that that was kind of a good way to market your work is to have pictures of people wearing items that you made. Or did you 37:00just come up with that on your own?

DuBois: I think I really didn't want to do that because it was going to be too much trouble because I sold so much before I went modeling. It was just that they said people wanted to see my Indian clothes, so, "Okay, get me some models."

Little Thunder: Okay, you kind of got pushed into--.

DuBois: It always worked out all right, no matter where I went because I was in Tulsa and Tahlequah. Seemed like a lot of--. Gosh, I hadn't thought about that 38:00in a long time.

Little Thunder: Do you think you did more than five shows a year? Do you think four to five shows a year?

DuBois: No.

Little Thunder: Okay, because with all your sewing--.

DuBois: Maybe two or three. I thought, "Well, I can't do that." I went down to Wewoka, and those ladies wanted me to do a show. I tell them, "Get me some models." They always wanted to model.

Little Thunder: When you did do an art market, how did you know how many shirts to bring or how many skirts to bring? Was it whatever you got done, or did you plan it out pretty carefully?

DuBois: No, just whatever I got done. It usually took me two days to make a ribbon shirt like this one here. (Gestures) This was the most popular, though. 39:00This one, Sac and Fox. My husband had the Potawatomi shirt on down in Arizona. The Kickapoos, I made a lot of their shirts. I tried to have some on hand, but I found out that I couldn't make small ribbon shirts. They had to be huge. Then everybody found out I made big ribbon shirts, and they always came and bought them.

Little Thunder: So it was better if you were stocked with larger ribbon shirts.

DuBois: Yes.

Little Thunder: Who are some of the celebrities that have bought your shirts? 40:00You have some great stories. (Laughter)

DuBois: Wes Studi. He was funny. Then he had to have a shirt for his son. He always came around. What's that other guy's name?

Little Thunder: I think you mentioned Michael Horse. And then shawls. We've already talked about the Five Indian Ballerinas, but there was another well-known TV star that you made a shawl for.

DuBois: Who was that? (Laughs) I had Elaine Miles.

Little Thunder: Did you get to visit much with her or was it--.

DuBois: Oh, yes, she was fun to talk to. That state representative from Shawnee, 41:00(I can't even think of his name) he came there at Red Earth one time and asked me where I was from. I told him Shawnee, and he told me who he was. "Oh, okay, okay." He wanted to know if he could fit in one of those ribbon shirts. I said, "Well, sure." I can just look at him and see what size he would wear. I picked one out and said, "How about this one?" He tried it on, and he bought it. I can't even think of his name.

Little Thunder: In terms of how you set up your booth and display clothing, that's kind of an art in itself, right? It's not like you can lay something out on a table.

DuBois: I made myself a cloth out of double-knit and put a design around it. It 42:00was white and had a red design.

Little Thunder: Oh, how pretty, made the table stand out.

DuBois: That helped. Then--I put my ribbon shirts, folded them up, and put them in a clear plastic bag.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, kind of like the store, almost like they would at the store.

DuBois: Yes, and they liked that, that everybody didn't touch them. I had different sizes out. I could just look at them and see what size they would wear and all that, even the big guys because they didn't think they would find 43:00anything. They were so happy to find something. I told them, I said, "You know these shirts will last forever." They do because you don't wear them out. They're washable. You can wash them, so they liked that. That was my best seller, those big ribbon shirts.

Little Thunder: Is it harder--I don't know if your favorite material is a certain type of cotton, but is it harder to find good quality material now than it used to be?

DuBois: I don't buy much anymore, but it seems to be all right. I bring it home and wash a piece to see if it's going to wash all right.

Little Thunder: You shop in person when you buy material for things and you make it?

DuBois: Yes.

Little Thunder: No online shopping.

DuBois: I used to have a, I had a fabric shop in Chandler.

Little Thunder: Oh! When was this, in terms of your career? Was it before?

DuBois: It was before. It was before I really started going to shows because Larry worked for the telephone company, and sometimes he had to be gone a week or two. There was a building there that I thought, "That'd be a good fabric shop. I think I'll try that." I did. It was so much fun. Then you go down to Dallas and go through all those fabric stores.

Little Thunder: So choosing the fabric was one of the most fun things, and you were buying it wholesale.

DuBois: People would come in and buy something and see if I would make them a 45:00dress or something. I was, "Sure." I had my two machines. I had one there at the shop and one at home.

Little Thunder: Yeah, that was a good setup.

DuBois: By that time, I just had the one boy at home. Everybody else had graduated and on to their things, so therefore just having one kid at home.

Little Thunder: Why did you close the shop?

DuBois: Larry got transferred to Enid, so we had to sell that house. We had eighty acres up there and lived out in the country. It was kind of an A-frame type house. It was just really neat. We had pigs and horses, cows. That's where 46:00my son, this one, he showed pigs, and he won grand champion of Lincoln County. Then he started playing the fiddle. He won third in the state, playing his fiddle. At school he won singing. What was it? He won first on that. Gosh, I can't even think. It was an old western song.

Little Thunder: Okay, and he plays Native flute, so he got really--.

DuBois: He plays those now. He really does good, doing that.

Little Thunder: What was one of your favorite markets to go to, to sell your work at?

DuBois: I guess Red Earth was.

Little Thunder: Why?

DuBois: It seemed like a lot of different people came. I don't know why people don't--oh, I shouldn't even say that. This one lady looked at all my things on the table and asked me if I did all that. I says, "Yes," and she didn't believe me.

Little Thunder: My goodness.

DuBois: Yeah. Then I slapped her. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Leslie Deer cites you as having taught her. I think she referenced a couple of Sac and Fox women that taught her appliqué in ribbon work, and I know that you've been one of her mentors. How did you guys meet?

DuBois: I don't think I ever taught her.

Little Thunder: Taught her any sewing techniques? It was someone else, then.

DuBois: Her mother was married to my cousin. They lived in California, and then he passed away. When we lived in Shawnee, they always came by to see us. Then 49:00we'd move off somewhere else, and nobody could find us. When I started, seemed like I had a lot of fashion shows. Seemed like I was busy all the time doing something.

Little Thunder: Basically, after she moved back to Oklahoma, you were able to ask her to be a model.

DuBois: Yes, especially after I moved back down here.

Little Thunder: Native fashion has really exploded over the years, and I wonder what your impressions are of the field now.

DuBois: Well, it seemed like since I quit really being into it like I was 50:00before, I just don't think about it, I guess. Then when Larry retired, we started going here and there and everywhere.

Little Thunder: But you still have buyers who won't let you go.

DuBois: Yes. Getting that letter from that--no, he called me (how did he get my phone number?) from Washington State. Wanted a ribbon shirt.

Little Thunder: And someone had referred him to you as somebody who would make good ribbon shirts. Let's talk a little bit about your process and techniques. I'm wondering if your approach to ribbon shirts or shawls or maybe your dresses--because I saw, I think in your scrapbook, a real progression from the 51:00skirts with the elastic to these dresses that are just contemporary fashion, but they've got a Native motif on them. How did your approach to making dresses with that kind of Native motif change over the years?

DuBois: I still have the same dresses that I made for myself that I wore wherever I went, but they're getting too big on me.

Little Thunder: But they've lasted.

DuBois: Yes, they're hanging in the closet. Then I made the coats, too.

Little Thunder: The Hudson Bay type coats, Pendleton coats.

DuBois: I made those, and we still have those. I made Larry a coat and my coat, 52:00and then my grandson, I made him a little jacket. We were on a tram, riding this tram up to the mountains in Albuquerque. We were on there, and this guy says, "Where did you get those coats?" I said, "Oh, I made them." He kept talking about, "Oh, those coats are so pretty," and just went on and on and on. He says, "Where did you get those coats?" I said, "I made them." He never said another word.

Little Thunder: He wasn't going to commission you to do one. He wanted to buy it at a store. Have you ever done any kind of weaving or beadwork or anything? Has 53:00it just always been mainly sewing?

DuBois: Just beadwork, I guess, on some things. I tried; I just didn't like that.

Little Thunder: What was the hardest thing you ever tried to make in terms of sewing?

DuBois: The dresses that I make with all the appliqué on them, you had to really measure and get that done right and have them meet the same--.

Little Thunder: Right, they're very time consuming. And then you did share with me that one time you were looking through a Western magazine; I can't remember if it was Cowboys and Indians. You saw this shirt, and it kind of inspired you 54:00to adapt it a bit.

DuBois: That was the one, (Gestures) the black one that what's his name had on. I just tried to make things easy on myself and then when you put it on because some of those clothes were hard to get on and button or whatever. I try to make them easy for people to wear.

Little Thunder: It has, like, this Western flavor but then the Native appliqué, woodland kind of designs. It's a real handsome shirt. Did you ever draw out something you were going to sew? If you were experimenting with a dress that had a Native motif but is contemporary dress, did you ever draw something out for yourself?

DuBois: A lot of skirts. I made wrap-around skirts that tied, and put appliqué on them.

Little Thunder: So you're drawing out your patterns for your appliqué, right, because that always involves some pattern drawing. What other kinds of research did you do sometimes?

DuBois: I don't think I had time to do any research. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You had everything in your head already, anyway. Is there something you'd like to sew that you haven't been able to tackle yet, didn't have the time, or--.

DuBois: No, not really. I'd like to get all my fabric sewed up into something.

Little Thunder: Yeah, you have a good--

DuBois: Don't think I have time.

Little Thunder: --a good quantity there.

DuBois: I think those two drawers are full, right there, and there's a drawer over there. I've got these things like that. (Gestures)

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, that have fabric, too?

DuBois: Yeah, there's some right here, and there's all those right there. I think, "Oh, gosh, I got to get those sewed up into something or give them away or something," and nobody knows how to sew.

Little Thunder: Right, I really think Native women are keeping the art of sewing alive right now because a lot of people don't sew anymore. It used to be kind of 57:00a mainstream thing in the ʼ50s.

DuBois: Yes, yes, because you had to if you wanted something to wear. Even the fabric store closed here. Just got one here in Shawnee. I don't go in fabric stores anymore. I was looking for something. What was I looking for? I had to ask them, and like they didn't know what I was talking about. What was I looking for?

Little Thunder: Goodness, that's pretty discouraging. I do want to look at some of your thread, too, before we quit today because you can see the color, the hues, and you can see the careful choices of color there. What's your creative process like once you get an idea? Let's just say you're starting a ribbon shirt.

DuBois: Well, I have to plan. I have to plan, "Today, this is all I'm going to do is sew." Then I come out here and have my pattern.

Little Thunder: Do you get out in the morning? Do you get over here in the morning?

DuBois: Yes, I can sew all day. It's just cutting everything out and getting everything put together. Sometimes it'll take me a day to do that and decide what color ribbon will go on this, if I need to buy some, or anything like that. 59:00When I was really into the business, I went down to Dallas and got everything that I needed, all my ribbon work, all my threads, and whatever, things like that, that I didn't have to run to the store all the time.

Little Thunder: I see. You bought in quantity when you went down there.

DuBois: And sometimes the color fabric that the men like, it was always blue.

Little Thunder: That's the color that sells the best.

DuBois: Yes. Just getting started, and coming out, and what I'm going to do first, and do it the same way I always do.

Little Thunder: So everything's cut out on the first day, and then the second day you're putting it together.

DuBois: Yes.

Little Thunder: Do you have several sewing machines now? I see, I think, just one.

DuBois: I have that one there, and I have one out there. I've got several that don't work. You have to keep all those things going, get them tuned up every now and then, and do things like that so they don't break down while you're sewing and trying to get something done. Sometimes people wait to the last minute, or they don't know until the last minute that they got to have a shirt. I can sew one up in a hurry if I had to, but it's just always nice to plan a day and get it done.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that every place you've gone with Larry, every 61:00place you've moved, you've always had your sewing room.

DuBois: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: Why is that important to have that space apart?

DuBois: I think people need something to do when they're not working. When you have kids at home, you have to look after them. Nobody looks after their kids anymore. We always had a good time.

Little Thunder: When you were sewing and raising your young children, did they hang out where you were working?

DuBois: Yes! They'd run their cars all around the sewing machine, around the table. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Women know how to deal with that. Does your daughter do any sewing?

DuBois: Not very much, but she does sew for her grandchildren. She's a State 62:00Farm agent, so she can't do all that much. She does sew for them a lot, two little girls, so that helped.

Little Thunder: Do you go to a lot of the dances when you can?

DuBois: I used to, but seems like not anymore. They're changed. They're not like the old days, remembering all the songs and dancing. Besides, my legs can't dance anymore.

Little Thunder: Time to watch on, right? Looking back over your career, your sewing career, what was a fork in the road for you where you maybe could've 63:00tried another outlet for expressing yourself, or where you ended up thinking, "I can support myself sewing"? What was that fork in the road?

DuBois: I don't know. Seemed like I always knew how to sew, and somebody was always asking me to make something. "Okay, I'll make it." When you really like doing something--.

Little Thunder: It doesn't feel like work so much.

DuBois: Yeah, I just wish somebody would clean up my room. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What was one of the high points in your sewing career? What's been one of the high points?

DuBois: Oh, my goodness, getting to meet all these different people. They were always so nice and pleasant and easy to talk to. They always talked to me. Sometimes it wasn't easy for me getting into this business, but it is now.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

DuBois: I didn't think people should be so mean to me sometimes.

Little Thunder: Customers who weren't easy to deal with or--

DuBois: It was never the customer. It just--.

Little Thunder: At a market or festival?

DuBois: Yes, but most of the time it was fun and pleasant. You didn't think about those a lot of times when everything is going your way.

Little Thunder: In terms of the price range of your clothing, what did you strive for in terms of your pricing?

DuBois: I tried to think of the people and what they could afford. I said, "If 66:00it would take me three hours to make this, I can charge ten dollars an hour," or whatever. A lot of people think sewing a ribbon shirt is really hard to do, and it isn't to me.

Little Thunder: For some of us it would be. (Laughter) It wouldn't be three hours. Yeah, keeping things affordable for people has always been one of your concerns. We're going to wrap up, but I do see you and Larry at shows frequently, even though you're not doing markets anymore. Sometimes you come 67:00with your friend Leslie, I guess. What is it about that that you still enjoy, being at a market but not necessarily having to work it? What's fun about that?

DuBois: It is enjoyable, and I look at what people are doing. I don't realize sometimes that those people remember me. "Oh, I remember him now." I could just stand there and talk to him.

Little Thunder: Or they're wearing a shirt that you made, and you just happen to notice it. That's neat. It seems like a nice way of keeping your hand in it in a way.

DuBois: Yeah, it's like they've finally met me and can talk to me, and I can 68:00talk to them. It is nice to see--.

Little Thunder: It's a different quality of visiting. You can do a different kind of visiting when you're just babysitting a booth for a little bit or something.

DuBois: Sometimes I didn't have time to talk to everybody when I was working at a show. Now it's easy. "Oh, gosh, I know that guy!"

Little Thunder: That's neat. This is not a career point, but I think it's really interesting that you and Larry recently took a hot air balloon ride. What was that like?

DuBois: It was so pleasant. We were out there, and every morning we'd get up and 69:00see those hot air balloons up there in the sky. Gosh, that looks so pretty. I told Larry, "I'd like to ride one of them." He says, "Me, too. We'll just do that." Being really busy with Leslie and trying to get her situated over there and helping her and being there for her--. We got us a ticket and jumped on there, and it was so pleasant. You can't believe. There was eight people on there besides the driver. They were just so pleasant, and the champagne 70:00breakfast didn't hurt. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Wow, that's a nice little perk. This was in Albuquerque, right, that you did it?

DuBois: Phoenix.

Little Thunder: Oh, in Phoenix. That's cool.

DuBois: It was. I called my daughter and told her what we did. She was, "Oh, Mom, you shouldn't have done that!" Even my son up here, he says, "I can't believe you did that." It's funny that they thought that. Everybody we told, they said, "Oh, I wouldn't do that." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's great.

DuBois: Maybe if I was younger I wouldn't do it.

Little Thunder: Right, you're getting more adventuresome. That's something to 71:00look forward to. Is there anything else we need to talk about or you'd like to talk about before we take a look at your ribbon shirts?

DuBois: I think we said it all.

Little Thunder: Thank you very much for your time, Adeline. This is just a beautiful skirt. (Gestures) Can you talk a little bit about the material and some of the--.

DuBois: It's taffeta and a Sac and Fox design.

Little Thunder: And on some velvet. Is it velveteen? Yes, and that's the skirt itself.

DuBois: This is my dress that I wore when I was sixteen.

Little Thunder: Oh, my goodness, wow. Here's the shirt. This was your Sac and 72:00Fox outfit. It is beautiful.

DuBois: I took them off. I must've had to use them.

Little Thunder: You must've needed the ribbon.

DuBois: I guess so.

Little Thunder: The pleats, I missed the pleats in the back. That is beautiful detail there, really nice.

DuBois: I did all that.

Little Thunder: You made it then when you were sixteen, too?

DuBois: Yeah, and this is what I wore, so it's very old.

Little Thunder: Yes, it looks like it was made--I mean, it's held up beautifully. How about this dress? I love the design.

DuBois: I've had that a long time. I could wear it to any dance, Sac and Fox, 73:00Kickapoo, or Shawnee, whatever. I have one necklace, but I gave it to my granddaughter.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's special.

DuBois: That was another old dress that I wore, like this one here.

Little Thunder: It is beautiful. I like that fabric. What a beautiful blouse.

DuBois: They made these blouses, but they had the collar on the blouse.

Little Thunder: Wow, you made it so it will come off. That is such a cool design thing.

DuBois: Yeah. Somebody needed my skirt. This was so easy to do, and everybody 74:00liked that.

Little Thunder: Yes, it's a great idea.

DuBois: Sometimes, you didn't have to take this off and wash this, especially if you had those silver things on there.

Little Thunder: Wow, that's really neat.

DuBois: This is my favorite short sleeves.

Little Thunder: Yes, your summer dress, as you were saying.

DuBois: Sometimes I just wore a beaded pin in front there and earrings. It has a belt, too.

Little Thunder: Okay, yeah, and full skirt, like you said, with pockets.

DuBois: Yes, with pockets.

Little Thunder: That's neat.

DuBois: Yes, it is. The longer sleeve, and use those fringes on there, and washable. I have a white necklace that I wore--

Little Thunder: Oh, sure, that would show it off real nicely.

DuBois: --and white cowboy boots.

Little Thunder: Oh, boy! (Laughter) That's a great touch. Oh, how pretty.

DuBois: It was always interesting to wear something and--

Little Thunder: And stand out.

DuBois: --yeah, and people knew that I made it.

Little Thunder: They knew that was your business, too.

DuBois: I didn't make this. This lady, Little Shirley (we called her Little Shirley) she was married to my brother. Then when he passed away, her mother made this. It's a Kickapoo shirt, and it has a different way they put things together. She knew I would want that. Seemed like they never put buttons on those things. It's longer, down this way.

Little Thunder: And a ruffle collar.

DuBois: I don't know how old this is.

Little Thunder: Wow, it's nice to have that to pattern after. That's beautiful.

DuBois: Yes, I was glad she--gave it to me.

Little Thunder: Okay. This here is a ribbon shirt that you made. It's the--.

DuBois: That's a Sac and Fox.

Little Thunder: --yeah, Sac and Fox style so people can see the difference here. Just beautifully ironed and beautiful material.

DuBois: And washable.

Little Thunder: And washable.

DuBois: It's got the buttons and buttonholes on it. I don't even have a tag in there. Sometimes people don't realize that's two, layered in there, two pieces, the yoke. Everybody always likes blue.

Little Thunder: Right, you mentioned that. You changed the color of the fringe because you just had it white initially. It's so striking, though, with the white appliqué background. Beautiful, yes. It makes it a rainbow, rainbow effect.

DuBois: Gosh, I don't remember when I made this.

Little Thunder: While you're doing that, I'm just going to get your bobbins of thread here real quick so people can see all the beautiful colors. Well, thank you so much for taking time out to do this.

------- End of interview -------