Oral history interview with Leslie Deer

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Monday, February 6, 2017. I'm interviewing Leslie Deer on behalf of the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Leslie, you're a recent graduate of OSU, a contemporary fashion designer and clothing maker. You also work at Citizen Potawatomi Nation Cultural Heritage Center here in Shawnee, Oklahoma, and that's where we're interviewing today. You're a Muscogee Creek tribal member. Your design work is heavily influenced by Southeastern motifs and world views, and you just had this great fashion show at the OSU Museum, which I got to watch. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today.

Deer: Thank you, it's an honor to do this. I'm excited.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Deer: I was born in Oakland, California, in the 1960s. I grew up in the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area, northern California, until about the age of eighteen. Then my family relocated to Oklahoma. We moved to Shawnee, and so I've 1:00been most of the time in Oklahoma ever since.

Little Thunder: What did your mother and father do for a living?

Deer: Oh, gosh, I have a father, and I have a stepfather. My father is Italian. He's non-Native. My mother met him as a result of the government's, I guess I would say, assimilation program, where my mother was taken away from her family when she was five and put in boarding schools. She went to commercial school after high school, which I guess is the same thing as, like, a vocational school. Then she was put into the relocation program. She said they told her, "You get to pick a big city, and we'll send you there." She chose San Francisco, and that's where she met my father, who is full-blood Italian. That is my biological father. I also had a stepfather, whose name was Vernon Ketcheshawno.

He was full-blood Kickapoo from here in Oklahoma. That's mainly why we relocated to Shawnee, Oklahoma, was because my stepfather was going to work for his tribe. He worked with the Indian Child Welfare Program for his tribe. Prior to that, he was a professor at San Francisco State University. My mother worked for different Indian programs. It's not JOM [Johnson-O'Malley], but I think it was called something else before JOM back in the ʼ70s. I can't remember right now what it was called, but some of those kind of programs. She served as the chairman of the board of directors for the Intertribal Friendship House in Oakland, California, and was active in a lot of different Native American community-type things.

Little Thunder: How about your relationship with your grandparents on either side growing up?

Deer: My biological father's parents were both Italian citizens. They both came 3:00to the United States as children, and neither one of them spoke English. My mother's parents were both full-blood Creek from Eufaula, Oklahoma. Neither one of them--well, they spoke a few words, a little bit, enough to get by, I think, but they primarily spoke the Muscogee language, as well. I didn't get to interact with them probably as much as I would have liked to. They all, unfortunately, passed away by the time I was twelve years old. I didn't get to interact a lot with my Creek grandparents because we lived in California. We would come to visit in Oklahoma in the summertime for maybe a few days during the summer. My Italian grandparents, I did get to spend time with them, but again, I would play with my cousins and things like that.

Little Thunder: Any siblings?

Deer: I do. I have one younger brother. His name is Gino Barichello. He 4:00pronounces it that way; he prefers the Italian pronunciation. Then I also have two stepbrothers: Jay Ketcheshawno and Jeffrey Ketcheshawno.

Little Thunder: You mentioned growing up in this urban Indian background that you grew up in. Can you talk a little bit about some of the pluses of that environment in terms of creativity, and then maybe some of the minuses, as well?

Deer: It was really interesting growing up in an urban area in the 1960s because there were lots of other Native people that been relocated to the San Francisco Bay Area, as well. There were all kinds of different tribes. People from all over the United States were there. Indians will always find Indians, and we had a big, strong Native community there. We have the Intertribal Friendship House, which is a community center. There were a lot of events that took place there, a 5:00lot of dinners, a lot of powwows, a lot of gatherings. A lot of guest speakers would come through there. As a result of being around all those Native people, I got to see all of their traditional regalia, and learn some of their ways, and hear words from their language. It was really very interesting to me to see the difference between all the different tribes.

When we had powwows, I remember being able to identify people were from different parts of the country by what they wore, or what their regalia was made out of, or what designs and motifs they had on there. I thought it was all completely fascinating to see the differences. The way that they wore their hair and everything was completely different from tribe to tribe. We still do have some of that now, but I think it's all--. People belong to many different tribes now. We have a little of this tribe and a little of that tribe, and it's not always as obvious. I do remember that, and that was an exciting experience, as 6:00well as, I think, being in a big city. It has its own unique inspirations from it, as well, the sounds, the lights, the different cultures outside of Native culture, all of the different cultures that are there in the Bay Area. It was really interesting to take it all in as young person.

Little Thunder: Also, as you mentioned, your mom was involved with a lot of community organizations. It was a really powerful time in terms of Native activism and things. How did that influence your outlook?

Deer: There were a lot of things going on. I got to participate in the occupation of Alcatraz Island. I was young. My brother and I were both very young, but our mom did take us out there for day trips. We'd ride out on the boat and sit out there during the day. They'd have powwows. We would dance, or we would listen to different people speak, things like that. It really made a 7:00huge impression on me. It's the first time, I think, that I probably realized that Native people were treated so much differently. That was what that was all about, was drawing attention to Native rights and Native issues. I was still quite young but starting to become aware that Indian people maybe weren't treated the same sometimes, so that did have an influence on me. It's when I started to learn about my mother and how she was taken away from her family, that it was all a result of the government's programs that she couldn't speak her language, and she didn't have that to pass on to us. Not all of that hit me at once when I was a child, but it was the beginning of that. It had a huge impact on me. It's something that I still think about, probably every day.

Little Thunder: Did you have many family members, or extended family members who 8:00influenced your interest in art?

Deer: I think so. Along the way, there were a lot of different people. I know that I remember one time when I was about twelve years old, my parents wanted to go up to northern California to visit some friends. My brother and I were, again, being young, didn't have anything to do all day. We were out in the woods near the redwoods. Being city kids, we were like, "What are we going to do here?" I know that one of the ladies who was a friend of my mother's took me aside and said, "I'm going to teach you how to bead." She taught me how to bead peyote stitch, and I was thrilled with that. You couldn't take me away from the beads for several years after that. I was beading everything peyote stitch. I was making earrings for my mom, for her friends, for everybody, and it was one of my favorite things to do.

Little Thunder: How old were you?

Deer: I was twelve at the time, so I do remember that was one good experience. Then also, extended family, one of my stepfather's relatives had her own 9:00business. She had a fabric shop, and she had sewn for many years. When I was older and needed to start making more dance regalia, I went to her to have her help me: first, to make my regalia for me, and then later on to help me when I decided to start trying to make my own regalia. Another thing that really had a big impact on me that I didn't really realize at the time was when I was here in Shawnee, Oklahoma, in this community, the Sac and Fox tribe is close proximity here. This is part of their territory, as well. There were two Sac and Fox elder women. Their names were Viola Spoon and Sarah Franklin, and they were teaching an applique class. My brother actually worked for the Sac and Fox tribe, and he had written a grant to have them teach this class. He had asked my mother and I to come and participate in the class, and I really was not interested.

I didn't want to go, and he said, "Please, just come for a little while. It's 10:00open to the public. Just come and sit in and listen, and then you can leave," so my mother and I came. Those women were very gracious and very generous in what they had to share, and I found it fun. I really enjoyed it, learning how to make the templates and to trace the designs, and to apply them to different garments. I remember asking them, I said, "You know I'm not your tribe, though, so is it okay for me to do this?" They said, "You're not from our tribe, but you're the one who's here. You're the one who's going to learn it, and so you're the one who's going to be able to carry it on. Don't let it die out. Make sure that you share this and keep it going." I left the class knowing how to do a little bit of applique and thought, "Well, okay, maybe I'll do that again someday," and I put it up on the shelf. It stayed there for a long time.

Little Thunder: You were over eighteen. You were around--.

Deer: I was. I think I was probably in my twenties then, yeah. It was before I 11:00had joined the American Indian Dance Theatre or any of those kinds of things. It sat on the shelf for a little while before I came back to it.

Little Thunder: We want to talk about that in a minute, but in terms of--did you enjoy drawing, as well? It sounds like you were definitely attracted to three-dimensional work, pretty young, too.

Deer: I think so. I didn't think that I could draw, (Laughs) so I didn't ever really try to because it's like, "Oh, no, I'm not good at that. I'm not going to try that." I had an art class in high school, and I used to dread the drawing part. I would sit there and look like I was working, and then erase it. Then when the teacher would walk by, look like I was working, and then erase it. When we got to working with clay, I enjoyed that a little bit better, but it was not my favorite thing to do. The same with sewing, oddly enough. I had the home ec class in high school. The part of the semester where we got to sewing, I didn't enjoy it, and I don't really remember why. I don't know if I had a hard time 12:00threading my sewing machines, or had the bobbin threads all messed up, or what it was. I remember not enjoying it.

We worked on a couple of projects in that class, and I never finished them. Throughout the whole time that we had sewing, I would start the projects and never finish them. I remember my professor, my teachers, telling me--they came by and said, "Look, you have hidden talent. Look at these pin tucks. These are just perfect. You have hidden talent," and I could care less. I was like, "Whatever," and I couldn't wait to get out of class. I'd watch the clock and think, "Can we leave yet?" When that class was over, I literally said, "I'm never touching another sewing machine as long as I live." It's really silly now that I went back to school to work on that some more, so here I am.

Little Thunder: Unusual because usually if you're very good at something, you also enjoy it.

Deer: Yeah, I do now, but back then I really didn't for some reason. It's odd that I circled back around to it.

Little Thunder: When you were powwow dancing, were you contesting? What categories did you--.

Deer: I did. When I was younger, when we moved to Oklahoma and before that, I danced Southern Cloth, I guess. I wore a Southern-style dress. I wore my traditional Creek clothes, as well. Then I have an extended family relative who is Comanche who dressed me in Comanche clothes. I danced Southern Cloth for many years, and I enjoyed doing that. Then later on, I had to learn how to Fancy Shawl dance. (Laughter) That was interesting.

Little Thunder: You've come back to Oklahoma. You finished high school. You haven't--did you start working afterwards? Were you looking at college? How did it happen?

Deer: I just finished high school and was enjoying my summer when my mom woke me up one morning and said, "We're moving to Oklahoma, and because school starts 14:00sooner in Oklahoma than it does in California, college starts back there next week. We're going to put you on a plane, and we're going to send you to Bacone [College]. We've already called them, and they're going to take you. Everything will be fine." I thought I still had half a summer left, and I was on my way to Tulsa. I went to Bacone for two years. There are a lot of great artists that came through Bacone, a lot of great art professors there, and I did have art class there. Again, I just kind of poked my way through it, left Bacone, and went to the University of Oklahoma on a junior college merit scholarship. One of my professors had nominated me.

Little Thunder: What were your interests at that point, since they weren't art?

Deer: Gosh, I don't even remember. I think I tried a little bit of everything. I think I had tried taking some accounting courses, general business courses, and I really still did not have any idea what it was I wanted to do. I was drifting 15:00through. I got to OU, so I signed up for business courses and thought, "I'll just get a degree in business administration. That can apply to a lot of things." I actually did graduate there with a degree in public administration, which combined business management, economics, and political science. I had decided by the end of that that I was going to go to law school. I just wanted a degree so I could go to law school. I wanted to study environmental law. This was back in the early ʼ80s. I wanted to study environmental law, so I thought that's what I was going to do. After I graduated from the University of Oklahoma, I moved back to California.

I went back out there for a summer and got a job. I took the first job I could find, which was clerical work, which is things that I had done on and off 16:00through college. I got a clerical job working in San Francisco, and I thought that was going to be that. There was a friend of our family who had a Native American radio show on KPFA public radio station out in Berkeley, California, and invited me to come on as a guest. Somehow, that turned into asking me to be a co-host on the show, (Laughter) which I was like, "Yeah, sure." I thought, "This isn't serious. I don't really have to do this." I was like, "Yeah, okay, whatever." I got a call one morning and was told, "Meet me at this auditorium. We're going to go watch a dance company." I was like, "No, really, I'm tired this morning. I'll just skip it." "No, you've got to go, got to meet me there."

Little Thunder: It was part of the radio show?

Deer: It was for the radio program. We were going to go do some interviews. We were going to watch this dance company and then go do some interviews 17:00afterwards. I went to the auditorium, got my press pass, went in, and got to watch American Indian Dance Theatre, which completely blew me away. I think they were probably only in about their second year of touring at that time, and I was completely blown away. I thought it was the most amazing thing ever.

Little Thunder: Can you describe for us a little bit what the company's mission was, and what they--.

Deer: Yeah, it was to bring Native American dancing to a wider audience, to put Native American dancing in a theatrical setting to share it with the world, to create a little bit better understanding about our culture through dance. That was a very exciting time, to get to go see the Dance Theatre and go backstage and interview them. Got to interview the director, Hanay Geiogamah. It was all very exciting how it unfolded. Hanay had told me, he said, "We need another 18:00dancer, and I know you're from Oklahoma. I know that you dance. Do you think you can get a buckskin dress, and you can come on tour with us?" If that's all it takes to go on tour, I was like, "Yeah, sure!" (Laughter) I did actually find a friend who had a buckskin dress, and she was willing to loan it to me. She had toured years earlier. I can't remember if it was called USO or something, where they would go overseas and visit the troops. She had gone. She used to sing. She said, "This dress has already been all over the place. I'm going to let you take it, and go ahead and go on tour," so I did. I joined the dance company, and probably eight weeks later, I was in Paris with American Indian Dance Theatre.

Little Thunder: Wow!

Deer: It was really exciting.

Little Thunder: When you were beginning to do this traveling with the company, 19:00were you consciously looking at fashion at all?

Deer: I did start to notice fashion. I remember when I was on tour, going from country to country, it was almost like I was doing my own little trend forecasting thing. I was like, "Okay, in that country they were wearing it this way, and in this country they're doing it this way. That's interesting, and I think I like it better this way." Before that, I don't remember really thinking about fashion a whole lot as fashion is a career or, "Fashion, I've got to be part of it." I know that when I was younger, my family, we used to drive a lot across the country. We'd go from California to Montana, or California to Oklahoma and back, in a little Volkswagen Bug. My brother and I got to share the backseat.

A lot of times, I would spend my time in the car thinking about what I wanted to wear. "If I could have anything I wanted to wear at all, I would wear a top that 20:00looked like this with a skirt that looked like this," in my head to amuse myself. It never occurred to me, "Why don't you make all that?" Once in a while, I'd say, "Mom, can you make me a skirt like this?" We'd go to the store and look for a pattern. She'd say, "Well, there's not a pattern like that." We'd try. It didn't get much further than that. That was so long ago, before there was internet and social media and so many ways to connect and learn about things. New York and the fashion industry might have been on another planet for me. I guess that's why it didn't really occur to me--

Little Thunder: You were designing in your head.

Deer: --but I was, in my head, and not even really consciously recognizing that I was doing it and, "Maybe I should do that all the time." I would do it to pass the time. "I think I'd like an outfit like this," and that would be the end of it. It's what I did.

Little Thunder: You had a pivotal experience, too, while you were with the company, I guess, in terms of sewing your own clothing. Can you tell us that story?

Deer: Yeah, I did. Like I said, I danced Southern Cloth, so that's what I 21:00started doing in the show. At some point I think one of the girls in the show left, and Hanay said, "We're not going to replace her. We're going to make you dance Fancy Shawl." Someone who had never been quite that aerobic (Laughter) in my whole life, I was like, "Okay." Again, I had to find an outfit. I had to borrow an outfit, and the girl who was leaving loaned me her outfit, actually. I had to start working with the other girls, learning how to Fancy Shawl dance. I had seen it. I got the gist of it, but making your feet and your body move like that was a whole different thing. I had to practice and practice and practice. We did a team dance routine in the show, and so I had to learn the team dance and memorize the team dance. I made the rest of the girls rehearse over and over and over, and I know they were sick of me. "Again?"

I finally did get the routine, and so I started Fancy Shawl dancing. There came a point in time where I realized that I was going to have to keep doing it. I 22:00wasn't filling in for a little while. It was going to stay that way, so I needed to get my own regalia. When tour ended, I came home, and I got one quick lesson in flat-stitch applique beadwork, literally one lesson. I went home and set out about making leggings and moccasins and a beaded cape. I needed some dresses and shawls, and, remember, I didn't really sew. I didn't like that so much, so I went to my stepfather's relative, Adeline DuBoise, and asked her if she could make something for me. She gladly obliged and made me a couple of shawls and dresses. Someone else I think painted a shawl for me, painted some designs on a shawl, so I had something to wear. It worked that way for a while until--.

When you dance eight shows a week and you have three outfits, you want more. "I'm tired of wearing these same clothes." It was another break from tour, and a 23:00very good friend of mine, (her name is Shelley Eagleman-Bointy) we were traveling together to powwows in the summer. She said, "I'm going to make myself a new outfit." I was like, "Whoa, all by yourself?" She was like, "Yeah, you should, too." I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I don't know if I can do that." She said, "I want you to help me with that applique stuff because you told me you know how to do that, so you need to help me with it. Show me how to do the applique part." I thought, "Okay, I'll show you." I started helping her, and it seemed fun, picking out fabrics and colors. I decided to pick out fabric, too, so we started making our own outfits. We each made a blouse and a skirt and a shawl.

I remember being kind of happy with myself when it was finished because I literally thought, "The sleeves are the same length. I put it on and danced around, and nothing fell off. I guess it's okay." I was really happy about that. 24:00I liked it. I liked the way it came out. I liked the way it looked. Later on, we ventured to do it again, and we made outfits again. I think that's where it first started. Later on, I made things on tours. We needed them. Not a lot but once in a while we'd need new things on tour. Things would need to be repaired. We had a sewing machine that traveled with us, so I would sew things once in a while on tour.

Then I started making more regalia for myself and started going to more powwows, dancing as a Fancy Shawl dancer when we were off tour. All the girls in the company told me, "That's the only way you're going to get better is to go dance that way at powwows and just get used to it." I did start doing that. People would once in a while ask me, "Can you make something for me? I like your outfit. Can you make me something?" It went from there. People would say, "You should go to art markets. You should do art markets. You should sell your 25:00stuff." It took a long time for me to build up to doing that, but I did try. I went to Santa Fe a few times. Many years ago, I went to Santa Fe--

Little Thunder: What year would that have been?

Deer: --one or two years. I cannot remember exactly. I want to say it was like 2003, 2004, somewhere in there. I went a couple times. I wasn't as focused as I am now. I was like, "Here's some pillows. Here's some men's vests. Here's some skirts." I just made some things. I went to Santa Fe, and I thought that was really exciting to be a part of that and to be there and to see all the other artists. It was really an honor to be there.

Little Thunder: How did you do that first year?

Deer: I did okay. I made backpacks, too. I made backpacks with applique. Those were a real hit; I sold out of those. I did pretty good, and I enjoyed it. I came home and thought, "I don't know if I'm good enough to be there with 26:00everybody else. I don't know." I let it go again for a while, went back to my dancing and making things for me. Along the way, people would still ask me to make them things. I did, but I always was hesitant about fitting people for things. I thought, "I can go to the store and buy a pattern, and then I can put some applique on it if you want a dress or a coat or whatever it is. If that pattern size doesn't fit you correctly, I don't really know how to fix it," and so I was always hesitant. I would almost not want people to ask me to make things sometimes because I'd think, "Oh, gosh, what if I make it and it fits completely wrong?" I wasn't really confident in that area. Then that's why finally I decided to go back to school, learn pattern drafting and draping, learn about fit and how to fit things, and learn how they did things in the industry. That's why I went back to school.

Little Thunder: You came to OSU--

Deer: I did.

Little Thunder: --and you came in knowing that you wanted to design and basically work with Native-inspired clothing?

Deer: Yeah, knowing that I wanted to do what I had done all along: make clothing with Native-inspired or Native motifs of designs but put them on more modern garments.

Little Thunder: Had you done anything like a fashion show, per se? You'd been at markets, but you hadn't really done a fashion show, per se, prior to that?

Deer: I hadn't other than--not as a designer. Modeling, I did for Adeline, my friend of the family. I had done some modeling for her, and that was about my experience at fashion shows was being one of the models, really. Through school, I did get to participate in the school fashion show. Then most recently, the OSU 28:00Museum of Art's fashion show, so yeah, gradually getting a little bit of that experience. We did have a class at school about working in fashion shows and producing fashion shows. It was offered late during the evening during the middle of the week, and it didn't fit in my schedule with work and my two-hour drive home from school every day. I didn't get to take that class, although I wanted to. I haven't learned as much about fashion shows, probably, as I need to yet.

Little Thunder: What was a class that you did get to take that you really enjoyed, that was kind of a standout class?

Deer: Oh, my gosh, there was lots of things. I think that Textile Surface Design is the name of the class. I think that that was one of my favorite classes because we learned how to do a lot of different treatments to fabric. We learned how to dye fabric. We learned how to do batik. We learned how to do shibori, 29:00which is a Japanese dyeing technique. We learned how to do hand embroidery. I learned how to do things like crochet and knit. Everyone had to learn how to bead, but I already aced that part. It was real interesting to learn about all the different things you can do with fabric. Besides go purchase some fabric off the shelf, you can create your own fabric. I enjoyed that class. The other two that were my really big favorites probably were draping and flat pattern, which is what I actually intended to go to school for, anyway. I called the school, and I said, "I already know how to sew, and I just really want to learn draping. Can I just take draping?" "No, you have to take everything that comes before it because it all leads up to it. One comes before the other, and you can't have draping until you have everything else." That's how I ended up going to school, 30:00but it was worth it.

Little Thunder: You had this great background that you brought in because you had all the business, which is an important part of that. Since you graduated, how have your thoughts about the business side and marketing your work evolved?

Deer: It's trial by fire, sort of. I did have business courses a long, long time ago, and probably marketing and advertising were some that I didn't pay attention in as much. (Laughter) I think, honestly, advertising and marketing has changed so much from when I was in school in the ʼ80s studying those things, that it's still a learning process as I go. I'm excited to have a website. I do have--.

Little Thunder: How long have you had your website?

Deer: I do have a domain name, and it's got a placeholder or something, if you 31:00will. It's got a little slideshow on it now, and it just says, "Coming soon." The website is LA, which is for my initials, Leslie Ann. It's ladeerapparel.com. I decided to name my business L A Deer because someone already purchased the domain name Leslie Deer out from under me, (Laughs) so I switched it to L A Deer, my initials.

Little Thunder: That's nice. It brings up your California background a little, too. What are some important venues for selling your work right now?

Deer: Right now, I'm focusing on selling at Native American art markets. I'm trying to get my name out there and get some visibility. I have been to Santa Fe Art Market this past year in 2016.

Little Thunder: How was that different?

Deer: That was very different for me because this time when I went, I was a lot more focused. I'm pretty much focused on women's wear right now, and I am more 32:00focused on using my Southeastern heritage, the Southeastern motifs. I really feel like it's part of my journey to take those motifs, to reach back and bring them forward from so long ago so that they're not forgotten. They're so beautiful, and they're not--. You don't see them as often as you see a lot of different, regional-type designs. I try and use them and make them a little more modern. I am more focused in what I'm doing. The market seems like it has doubled in size since I was there so many years ago. Maybe it hasn't, but it feels so much bigger. I was treated very well by all the people passing by. Men would even walk by--which was surprising to me. Gentlemen would come by and say, "That's a really nice dress! I would buy that for my wife!" They'd come up, and 33:00they would touch it and say, "It's really nice quality." I thought, "Wow, if men even take time to notice--" (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's a real compliment.

Deer: "--this dress on the dress form, that's--." I thought that was really special because, to me, I think that men don't really pay that much attention. Maybe they do, but I imagine that they don't. That made me feel really good. I got a lot of positive encouragement. A lot of people told me, "This is different than everything else. I've never seen anything like this. Keep doing what you're doing." It really, really motivated me. It made me feel really good. It made me feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be finally. All that time, I didn't know where I was going, what I was going to be doing. I was drifting along and doing whatever came my way, and that was all fine and good. It turned out very well. Twelve years touring the world with American Indian Dance Theatre is nothing to complain about. I finally feel like I am where I'm supposed to be right now, so Santa Fe was wonderful. I'm getting ready to go to the Heard Museum next month out in Phoenix. I have applied to more art markets for 2017 and am still applying.

That's my primary way of marketing it and putting my stuff out there right now. I hope to have the website up in another month or two. I'm planning to make very limited editions of the garments that I make. I don't want to mass produce anything. Every garment that I sell is made by me, pretty much from start to finish. I cut each one out myself. I sew all the designs on them. I assemble them. I am just now starting to work with a lady who is going to help me with hand finishing, tacking the lining to the zipper and doing the hems. I pretty much do it all myself. The dresses, I think, are really unique in a way. If you have too many of them, they lose their specialness. I know that women don't like to go anywhere and run into someone wearing the same thing, so what I do is very limited. I buy a certain amount of fabric for a certain dress, and when that 35:00fabric's gone--. I can maybe make six, eight, maybe ten of that dress, and when it's gone then that dress is retired, and on to something else. See how it goes.

Little Thunder: Wow, that's very unique. When the fabric is sold, then the pattern is discontinued, basically?

Deer: Yeah, I can use--I don't mind using the same style of a dress. I have a dress that I made that I took to Santa Fe, and it had box pleats in the front on the skirt half of the dress. It was very popular. Everybody loved that dress. It's also expensive to have your patterns graded. That's the only thing that I don't do myself. It's very time-consuming to do by hand when there are people and software and equipment that can do it with the matter of a few clicks, so I send my patterns off. I make the basic size-six pattern, and then I send them off to be graded. That's expensive, and so also to help me save money in the 36:00beginning, I recycle those same styles. I'll use the same dress but put something completely different on it. It was a sleeveless dress, and now it's a cap-sleeve dress. I do try to make that stretch a little bit, but as far as the designs and motifs that I put on it, they're different. The color stories, they're all completely different. Yeah, I try to make it stretch but try to make it different at the same time.

Little Thunder: By grading, you mean that they're actually printing out something like a blueprint, something like a dress pattern?

Deer: Grading is actually the pattern-sizing. If you ever look at commercial or store-bought pattern, it goes out. It graduates out like a ripple almost, in different sizes. That's what grading is. Grading is going from one size to the next. Sorry, using industry terminology.

Little Thunder: That's okay. (Laughs)

Deer: I try to practice my industry terminology, too, as much as possible. We were taught how to use all these industry terms in school, and we had to talk that way in school. I try to keep up with it in case when I actually ever do 37:00have to interact with, what I call, a real professional. Like the graders that grade my patterns, I have to know their terminology and talk in their terms. I try to remember that, but I forget not everybody knows some of those words.

Little Thunder: Tell us a little bit about the fashion show that just happened, how the idea for it came about.

Deer: Yeah, that was really exciting. The senior apparel design, advanced apparel design class at OSU does a collection as a group, inspired by whatever the exhibit is that's going on at the OSU Museum of Art at that point in time. When I was a senior, there was a pop art exhibit going on there, and that was what we used in my class. This class, the exhibit was about Native American creation stories. That class was challenged with designing a collection based on 38:00what they learned at the museum about Native American creation. I know in today's day and time, with appropriation and a very sensitive subject, some of those students were really concerned about what they were going to make. They didn't want to offend anybody; they didn't want to do anything wrong.

I really thought that the idea they came up with was very unique. They took the concept of rebirth and repurposing and reusing materials to design that collection, which was really beautiful. The professor of that class, Dr. Mary Ruppert-Stroescu, was also my professor when I was there. I still actually go to her from time to time when I need help with something. If I cannot figure out how to do something in a pattern or how to put something together, sometimes I will call on Dr. Mary. I happened to be up there visiting her, and I think maybe 39:00she also had me come talk to the senior class. She said, "We only have five senior students for this fashion show, so it's going to be a very short fashion show." (Laughter) She said, "Why don't you bring some of your garments, and come up and show after the students?"

I always think that every time you're presented with something, it's an opportunity. You can make the most of it or let it slip away. Even though I didn't have a lot to show at that time, coming back from Santa Fe, and after also Cherokee Art Market, and making some one-off garments for clients, I didn't have a lot, but I said, "Yeah, okay, sure!" Here it was, January, trying to get ready for the show, and I was trying to get things together. I didn't have a lot to show. I only had five things to show, myself, but I still saw it as an opportunity not to be missed. I'm so glad I did. Again, it was more experience 40:00for me and an opportunity to put my name and my garments in front of more people. I was really excited for that opportunity.

Little Thunder: It was a great show. It had a really good turnout. It seems to me, as a fashion designer you have two issues going on. One is stereotypes of Native women, including what the mainstream media has presented as representing traditional clothing, whether it's back then or now. Then you also have the mainstream culture, which--and I think a lot of the fashion industry does still really commodify and objectify women's bodies. I wonder how you design with those things in mind.

Deer: As far as the garments that I make and the way that they fit or show a woman's body, I like to say that I design garments that I would like to wear, 41:00myself. I know that you can't target everybody when you're designing clothing. Not everybody is your market, and so I thought that I would like to see more clothes that I would like to wear, women with my silhouette or my shape. That's what I design with in mind. As far as the way my garments are, or the way that they fit, or how revealing or not revealing they are is based on something that I think that I would wear or that I wouldn't wear. As far as the stereotypes and the way that people think Native peoples' clothes should look, I honestly--.

I try not to think about those things so much. I sometimes find myself really closing myself off from all that, from social media and everything, to focus on 42:00what I want to do, and do what I want to do without letting any of that even into my head. I guess really I do what I want to do, and make things that I think that I would like to wear. I think about--they teach us, "You've got to know who your client is. Who are you designing for? What does she do? What does she wear? Where does she go? Where does she work," all of this. I think, "Well, I've done a lot of different things, and I do a lot of different things still. I like to wear nice things some days, and other days, I'm just wearing my jeans. I want things to wear for those nice days," so that's how I design. (Laughs) Right or wrong, that's what I do.

Little Thunder: What's your favorite clothing item to make?

Deer: Gosh, there are things I like to make, and there are things I don't want to make because they're a lot of work.

Little Thunder: You could talk about those, I guess. (Laughter)

Deer: I make dresses pretty much because I like those. Those are fun; I enjoy 43:00that. I also like to make outerwear. I don't do it a lot, jackets and coats and things like that, because all of the work involved sometimes with some of those outerwear garments, the time it takes to build and construct them. Then you're looking at the shoulders, and the shoulder pads are different areas, to the lapels, and the collars, and under collars. It's a lot, a lot of work. For me, as one person to do them and make several of them, it right now doesn't appeal to me. Maybe as I grow and get a little bit bigger, maybe if I have help in construction with putting things together, I might look at doing more of those things, but to me right now, they're so time-consuming that I stay away from them. I would say, I guess, I like to do dresses pretty much. I like to do dance regalia, too.

Little Thunder: Have you taken your fashion work overseas?

Deer: As far as the things that I'm designing now and the things that I'm showing at art markets, I have not. Only in terms of the regalia that I wore mostly with the dance company is pretty much the only thing that I have taken because, honestly, I don't think I've been out of the country in the last--. I was when I was in school. I went to Azerbaijan almost two years ago.

Little Thunder: With the design class?

Deer: No, actually for the US Embassy. We went to the US Embassy, and Azerbaijan invited us to come and dance. I still dance sometimes with the dance group, and we went over there for that. That reminds me that I actually purchased all of my fabric for my senior collection at school in Azerbaijan. (Laughs) All of those garments were made with fabric I purchased over there and lugged back in my suitcase. No, I haven't taken anything overseas yet.

Little Thunder: Do you have a couple of different sewing machines?

Deer: I do, from the very inexpensive, ninety-nine-dollar variety. Those are actually my favorites for doing applique, for doing the zigzag stitch, and for doing buttonholes. I have a very old, probably twenty-five-year-old Singer sewing machine that is my favorite. I've used it so much and had it repaired so much that the zigzag stitch skips sometimes, which is real frustrating to me, thus the ninety-nine-dollar replacements that work really well. I also have industrial sewing machines. I have a Juki lockstitch industrial machine with a motor on it that does, I don't know, three or four thousand stitches a minute. Then I also have a Juki over-edge machine to finish the raw edges. I'm very fortunate to have both of those. I was a First Peoples Fund Artist in Business 46:00Leadership Fellow last year and received a grant, and that helped me to purchase some of my equipment. First Peoples Fund is out of Rapid City. They helped with that, so I'm very grateful to them. Very fortunate to have the equipment that I do, and I'm always looking to get more.

Little Thunder: What is your favorite fabric to work with?

Deer: I actually like to use a lot of natural fibers and fabrics. I like to use wool. A lot of the dresses I make are out of wool crepe or wool gabardine. Even for summertime, sleeveless dresses and things, I prefer the wool. They're lightweight; they wear well; they have a nice hand and a nice drape to them. They take applique very well, and they tend to be, I don't know, forgiving. They will bend and move and stretch and grow with you, so I like those fibers. I also like silks. I like organic cottons, except for sometimes I don't like the fabric 47:00that wrinkles so much. Sometimes that narrows it down. For the applique part, I do use, actually, satin. It's acetate satin, which is getting harder and harder to find these days. I like the sheen on it. That's what I learned to work with many, many years ago from my Sac and Fox teachers, so that's what I still use today.

Little Thunder: Can you explain for us the difference, too, between applique and ribbon work?

Deer: Yeah, the terms, I think, are sometimes used interchangeably. I know that there is a type of ribbon work that some tribes use, where they actually use grosgrain ribbon. They clip the ribbons and press them under, and then stitch them down, which may be a more true use of the term "ribbon work". Applique that I learned from my teachers actually is cutting out fabric and either pinning it 48:00or, nowadays, sometimes we fuse it to the underlying fabric, and then stitch it down with a zigzag stitch on the sewing machine. Sometimes that's also done by hand. My teachers told me that they used to do it all by hand. They would have to pin their design in place and then hand stitch all the way around it with a little, almost like a cross-stitch. I think the term "ribbon work" is applied to that sometimes. They do a lot of symmetrical designs and do them in strips, and maybe that's where the term "ribbon work" comes in. I think that the terms can be interchangeable or more specific to the other kind of ribbon work.

Little Thunder: How has your palette of colors or designs changed since you graduated?

Deer: I don't know that it has changed since I graduated. I have always 49:00gravitated toward really bright colors. I also like the color combination of black and white together. I like black and white, and I like lots of bright colors. I'm not much of a pastel person at all. They might be growing on me a little bit, but I really like the bright, bold colors, lots of reds and lots of blues and royal purples, everything really bright, really saturated, and really vibrant. I like that color to grab your eyeballs. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you make any accessories right now?

Deer: I do, occasionally. When I made my senior collection in school, I made beaded cuffs for all of the models to wear with the dresses. It was carryover 50:00from another project I did, and it was an inspiration about the Wonder Woman pose. Have you heard of the Wonder Woman pose?

Little Thunder: No.

Deer: There is a TED Talk, and, gosh, I can't think of the professor's name. She says, basically, that if you stand in the Wonder Woman stance or pose with your hands on your hips for two minutes, it actually changes your body chemistry and gives you more confidence. There was another assignment in one of my classes that we had to design for, and it was in conjunction with domestic violence awareness. We had to listen to a lecture on domestic violence and use the emotions and feelings and what we learned from that lecture to design a garment. The whole time, I kept thinking there was a contrast of the oppressor and the person being oppressed, of control and someone wanting to be free. I designed a 51:00garment, and I thought, "Whoever it is that is experiencing domestic violence, they need to practice the Wonder Woman pose, and maybe it would be helpful to them." I made these cuffs for my garment that I made, and my model, she posed like Wonder Woman.

She looked like Wonder Woman; she was awesome. It was a carryover from that. It was like I was still stuck on the Wonder Woman pose thing. I beaded all these cuffs for my models to wear with their dresses, so in that case, I did make accessories. I did once start beading a Peter Pan collar to go on a dress. I haven't quite finished that yet, so it's a half-finished project. For the collection that we showed up at the OSU museum, some friends of mine made bracelets for me. They strung beads on memory wire, and they're spiral 52:00bracelets. I had a little bit of input in that, but that was something that they volunteered to do for me. It was really great. Occasionally, I do make accessories like that, just not as often, when I have time. Maybe someday I'll have more time in the future. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: With some more help. Is there something you'd like to try design-wise or technique-wise that you haven't been able to do yet?

Deer: Oh, my gosh, I think there's a million things I'd like to try. I'd like to experiment with dyeing fabrics and doing a lot of different color stories, doing things that are a little more, I don't know, not so classic in silhouette, as far as the garments I make. I think I was explaining to someone one day that a lot of times when I used to put my applique on things that were not my dance clothes, if I was making something for me to wear and I wanted to put applique 53:00on it, I looked for garments that I could make that didn't have a lot of seams, that didn't have a lot of busy work in them so that I could put my applique there. I think over time, my brain is trained to create garments that have real simple lines, that are more or less classic silhouettes so that I can adorn them with this applique. Sometimes I always think that when I have more time, I would like to experiment more. I'd like to drape more and do things that are not so classic in silhouette, things that are a little bit different, experiment more.

I would like to also work on trying to be more sustainable. I try to be very conscious now, when I buy fabric and when I make a garment, to use all the scraps. I save all my scraps to use in something else so that they're not tossed out and put in a discard pile somewhere. I would like to work on ways to be more sustainable and be able to work on even making patterns that utilize more fabric 54:00and eliminate waste, or garments that are convertible that can turn into something else. I designed a garment in school that started out as an overcoat, that turned into a dress, that turned into a vest, so that you're using it for more than one lifetime. I would like to do more of that when I have more time.

Little Thunder: Right, because you also, of course, are working here at the Cultural Center--

Deer: I am, full-time job.

Little Thunder: --yes, and teach sewing classes.

Deer: I do. I teach regalia classes. We call it regalia classes because everybody wants to make something different. They're always wanting to make parts of their regalia, and not everyone wants to make the same thing. I work one-on-one. It's an open class; people come. I work one-on-one with them, whether I need to help them make a pattern for a skirt or a blouse, or tell them what materials they need to buy, or how much they need to buy, or show them how 55:00to tie fringe, or show them how to do applique. I do teach class here at the Citizen Potawatomi Cultural Heritage Center, and I'm always looking to teach more people. Sometimes we have youth that come in. I've taught kids as young as, I think, nine years old how to sew and how to make applique, so it's a lot of fun. It's a very rewarding experience, and it's fun to see what other people create. I really enjoy it. They broaden my horizons sometimes because I always think, "Those aren't my kind of colors," but when they make it, it comes out really beautiful. I learn a lot from them.

Little Thunder: Do you do any color sketches before you work on a piece?

Deer: I do sometimes, and in school we always had to do that. We always had to sketch a garment before we created it. It is helpful to do that, to sketch something out, because as you're making a pattern, you might get to a point and say, "Does the dart go here," or, "Is a pleat going to go there?" If it's all in 56:00your head, then you're making it up as you go along. If you do have a sketch, you can refer back to your sketch and say, "No, it clearly goes center front, halfway down the skirt," or wherever it goes. It does help to do that. A lot of times, I'll do them in pencil and not color them because I always feel like I'm rushing. (Laughter) Yeah, I do like to do sketches. I think, too, it helps a lot when you sketch because you have a great idea in your mind; it looks wonderful. When you go to sketch it all out and have to actually put everything in proportion, you can see that that doesn't look so great after all. "Maybe I need to move it this way, or adjust something here and there." It does help a lot to do that.

Little Thunder: How did you come up with your tag, assuming you have tags for your work? How did you come up with the design for that?

Deer: My label that goes inside my garments?

Little Thunder: Yeah.

Deer: It's pretty simple. It says, "L A Deer," and I think it says, 57:00"Holdenville, Oklahoma," which is where I live now. Again, it's back to--I made a decision to name my business L A Deer as opposed to Leslie Deer all because the domain name, Leslie Deer, was taken. It's simply L, space, A, space, D-E-E-R. It's pretty simple. I went to have some labels made, and you're allowed so many lines to print or text. It came about to be really simple. I'm still trying to work on a logo for my business. I tried to work on it once before, and I wasn't satisfied with anything. I decided to put it aside, and I feel like I'll know it when I have it. When I come up with it, I'll know it, and until then I'm not going to worry about it. Everything is pretty much, pretty black-and-white blend. It just says "L A Deer" for the time being.

Little Thunder: What's your creative process once you get an idea? Take us through the steps.

Deer: Oh, my gosh, it's different all the time, and I get inspiration everywhere. Sometimes it's when I'm asleep, and I'll wake up and go, "Oh, wow, that's a cool idea." Sometimes it's when I'm driving. I'll remember something from my past, or something when I was traveling, the designs on the cathedrals over in Europe, something like that. There's a lot of different things that influence me, color combinations. When I get an idea, I'll stop and try to at least sketch it down as soon as I have that idea. I'm one of those people that's really slow. I want to think about it, and think about every option and every different way it could go before I finally decide how I want to do it. That's so frustrating sometimes. I'm trying to really work on getting better about making decisions. I'll sketch it and say, "What if I put it over here? What if I put 59:00the design over there? What if I took the sleeve off, or what if I made a half-sleeve?" There's so much what-ifs, it drives me crazy sometimes.

Sometimes I'll sketch down designs for the motifs. Sometimes I'll get an idea for a silhouette. Sometimes I think I want movement, so I'll make circle skirts and skirts that have an A-line or a pleat in them so that you can see the movement when the wearer walks in them. Then I go back and forth from this silhouette. "Which of these designs that I sketched, these motifs, would look good on which silhouette?" I try to work on my color stories. I try to actually, to the ability that I can, research trend forecasting and colors for the next season, and the next season, and the next season, and try to base my colors based on those, while also keeping my bright color choices front and center. 60:00I'll pick out the brightest colors of the whole color story and choose those for my colors. It's all over the place, really. I do a lot sketching. I drive a lot, so I think a lot when I'm driving. Then when I stop somewhere, I'll sketch something and go from there.

Little Thunder: You keep them in a notebook?

Deer: I do, yeah. I have several notebooks. There's some in my car, and some in my bedroom. (Laughter) They're everywhere. I have to compile them all, and get them all together, and flip all the pages open when I'm trying to really work on something.

Little Thunder: In terms of your Southeastern designs, you, for your research, draw from, Sun Circles [Sun Circles and Human Hands: The Southeastern Indians Art and Industries] or some of the books?

Deer: Yeah, I have a lot of those books, Sun Circles and several others. I have been to several of the mound sites down in Georgia and Alabama, and talked to people. I've tried to talk to a lot of elders. I've tried to ask a lot of 61:00people. I've tried to ask other artists, and it is hard sometimes. I don't know if people truly don't know any more than I do, or they just don't want to share it. Sometimes people say, "I have the same books you do. I really can't tell you anything new." I think, "Gosh, okay." I keep trying, and I'm always trying to seek out people to learn more. I use a very select, limited amount of the motifs that are in some of those books right now because I don't want to use anything if I don't understand it. If I don't know what it's saying, what it represents, what it means, I don't want to use it.

The ones that I do use, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of, and I know what they're saying. I think that sometimes, too, my garments tell a story by the motifs on them. This is what they're telling you. I'm always looking at those designs. Sometimes I take them pretty literally and use them, and 62:00sometimes I try to change them up a little bit. I look at them all and think they're so beautiful. I don't know. It makes my heart beat faster when I look at them. I want to use so many of them, but I want to make sure I know what I'm doing with them and what they mean. I am limited, but I'm always looking for new information, more sources. I'm still chasing down people and trying to convince people to help me sometimes.

Little Thunder: Looking back so far over your design career, which has been relatively short (Laughter) but you're going great guns, what was a fork in the road where you could've gone this different direction and you ended up going this one?

Deer: Let's see. Gosh, I don't know. Sometimes every day I think it's a fork in 63:00the road, whether to keep going or to stop altogether because it's really challenging sometimes to work a full-time job, to commute, and to find time to take care of your family. I have a husband, and I have six dogs. Sometimes it's a sacrifice between spending time with them or working on my design work. I think that sometimes, to me, that seems like a fork in the road. Sometimes I think, "Should I just not even do this," because it's so much sometimes. I lose so much sleep trying to get things done, but I think that the side of doing it always wins out somehow always. I have this quote on my phone. It says, "Never, never, never, never, never give up," and so I always look at that and keep on going.

Even when I think, "I'm not going to get this done by the deadline; I'm not going to have this ready to submit to the juried art market; I'm not going to--," I keep going, and it all works out. It works out wonderfully. I feel like it works out exactly as it's meant to. I was working on a garment to submit to the juried art market at Santa Fe. I stayed up so late sewing for so many days, and I was going to have to drive myself to Santa Fe, eight-hour drive. I really didn't feel like I could drive eight hours by the time it was time to leave, so I decided not to. I took an extra day to stay home and sleep, to get out there in time for the art market. I took that garment with me, but it was just there on my rack. It was different from the rest of my collection because it was beaded.

It was a very special piece, so I was disappointed I didn't get to put anything in the juried art competition. I was like, "Well, you're just learning as you go 65:00here, so you'll know next year. Start earlier." I went to another art market after that. I went to a Cherokee art market a couple months later, and someone was there from the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian. They came and asked me about that dress that I didn't get to submit at Santa Fe and the inspiration behind it. It was inspired by 1800s Creek bandolier bags. He said, "I really like the idea of it. I really like that dress, and I think we would be interested in purchasing it." That dress--

Little Thunder: Your first museum sale.

Deer: --is now at the Smithsonian. That's really, really exciting. It's things like that that tell me, "Don't quit." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Right, it was meant to be there. Is there anything else you'd 66:00like to talk about, or anything you'd like to add before we look at your work?

Deer: Gosh, I don't know. I told you I could talk all day, so, really, don't give me free reign. (Laughter) I will go off on one tangent or another. Gosh, I think you had lots of good questions. I have lots of stuff to think about.

Little Thunder: Great. We'll pause it a minute, and we'll talk about the clothing real quickly. --

Deer: This is a jumpsuit that I made while I was still in school. I think this was in my advanced apparel design class, and this jumpsuit was inspired by an exhibit at the OSU Museum of Art. There was a pop art exhibit there at the time. My class had an art history professor give us a lecture on pop art. I learned that text was a very common aspect of pop art, and so I thought it would be fun 67:00to put text into my garment somehow. I knew that pop art was also a lot of times a social commentary, so I thought I would make this garment to tell a little bit about myself, kind of like an introduction to myself. It's not real obvious when you look at it at first, but I actually started--. I--had this fabric printed, but I designed the artwork for it. I started with a profile photo of myself in my dance regalia.

I have plumes on the side of my head, and those plumes have little white tips hanging off from them. If you look down at the bottom of the garment, (I don't know if you can really tell) there is my profile down there. There's my chin and my mouth and then part of my nose. Then the eagle plumes are hanging down over it, and there's the white tips down there on the plume. Then I also flipped it upside down, so, again, here's my chin and my mouth and my nose and then the 68:00eagle plumes. I decided to fill those, the white spot in those plumes, with some text. Being a child of the ʼ60s, and growing up out in the Bay Area, and participating in the Occupation of Alcatraz, I decided to put the proclamation of Alcatraz as the text in my plumes. I made some of the text red, too, and those are some of the points that are really salient to me that stood out.

It talks about, "We offer you a dollar and twenty-four cents in glass beads for the sixteen acres, which is more than you paid for Manhattan," so many years ago. I really thought that that was special. That's a part of me growing up. Being out there on Alcatraz is something that I will always remember and has always shaped my life, so I decided to put that in there. I had heart earrings 69:00on, shell heart earrings, in the photo, so I filled my hearts with flowers and flower power imagery, again, from being back in the ʼ60s. It was something I used to really love, was all of that flower power, pop art, that kind of artwork. This is a jumpsuit that has a keyhole in the back, and it has ties in the back. It has more of the flower power imagery on it. It is also fully lined, I might add. I'm proud to say I line all my garments. It's fully lined, and it is 100 percent organic cotton. It's one of my favorite things because it's a little bit about me.

Little Thunder: It's a cool piece. All right, let's look at few of your dresses next. --

Deer: Okay, so this dress is one of my most recent dresses, and it also--. I think of it as a medicine dress. I got the idea off of bandolier bags when I was 70:00doing some research on Southeastern bandolier bags. I really liked the straps on bandolier bags, and I noticed that each side of the strap was different. In some of my research, I understood that some of the designs on the straps might have been to represent medicines or herbs or things that were important to the person that wore that bag. That was their own special things. To me they look really abstract, curvilinear, like floral, botanical-type designs. I sketched something out that looked like little flowers or buds, or, again, herbal, medicinal-type plants, and put my bright colors to it. (Laughter) I also put the sun circle design in the middle. That is one of my favorite Southeastern designs is that 71:00sun circle design, which represents the sun, it represents the four directions, and it represents the world. Then it was a matter of finding a way to put all of those aspects onto one garment in a way that was visually eye-catching, so I decided to put it in the pleats. I thought that maybe you could notice it when someone walks.

Little Thunder: ... All right, how about the next dress? ...

Deer: This one is another new dress that I made. The style, I've actually recycled from a previous collection, and I've added some cap sleeves to it. I talked about trying to stretch my patterns. This was a dress that was sleeveless with box pleats in the front. I added a sleeve to it, a little cap sleeve, and I changed the applique designs on it, again, trying to use some of the designs 72:00that I know and that I like. I've got the serpent design on the bottom, which represents the Underworld. Then there is the spiral design in the center, which represents the Creator's breath because the Creator breathes life into all of us. That's one of my very favorite designs, and I also really like curvilinear lines. It's one of my favorite things. Then the top design is the eagle wings, representing the world above us. That's what that was meant to represent. Again, because I like the curvilinear, I added it to the neckline, and most of the design is on the back. You can see it a little bit better in the back than in the front. I'm always looking for different ways to add some of the applique to it rather than parking it front and center sometimes.

Little Thunder: Right, that's beautiful.

Deer: Then this one is a little bit simpler, but I still really like this. This is, again, the Creator's breath and the sun circle design, and this is a full-circle skirt. I think it's almost--. It's over three yards around the circumference at the hem of the skirt. This design goes on and on and on for a long, long time. It looks very simple, but yet it takes a lot of work to get all of that on there. Again, this is 100 percent wool gabardine, and it's very light. I like the way that it drapes and the way that it hangs, the way that it fits when you put it on, and so that's why I like to use the natural fibers a lot. That is the acetate satin, again, that is machine appliqued on there, and all of my garments are lined. I think I said that already.

Little Thunder: That's gorgeous. (Laughs) Thank you very much for your time today, Leslie.

Deer: Thank you! That was fun!

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