Oral history interview with Lorene Drywater

OOHRP, Oklahoma State University
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Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, December 13, 2016, and I'm interviewing Lorene Drywater for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Lorene's home, outside of Tahlequah. Lorene, you're an expert sewer, and I know you've produced a lot of clothing over the years.

Drywater: Oh, gosh, yeah. I saw two men that I made ribbon shirts for. Let's see. I went to--. Where was that place I went with these two people? That was Vinita?

Little Thunder: -- We'll come back to your ribbon shirts in a minute because you're best known for your buffalo grass dolls. You were featured in National 1:00Geographic, and I guess Cherokee Nation has produced a video of your work?

Drywater: Yes, two of them--

Little Thunder: Two!

Drywater: --books. Let's see. One, Robert and somebody else I can't remember--him and his wife used to live there. They had a small gift shop there that used to be where you could stop by and get you some ice cream. Where they really lived was a little bit down the road, off to the right. Then they moved away. She was a teacher. She was growing old as a teacher. I think her children was still at home. Let's see. I can't even remember their last name, but he was--.

2:00

Little Thunder: Wasn't Robert Conley, was it--

Drywater: Conley, yeah.

Little Thunder: --because he's a writer.

Drywater: He died, and she stayed. I think they lived in Kansas somewhere. That's where she was teaching. I'm not quite sure.

Little Thunder: You were one of the Cherokee Nation's Living Cultural Treasures, also. In 2000, you were nominated, I think.

Drywater: Oh, yes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: If you don't mind, why don't you tell us where you were born, and where you grew up?

Drywater: I was born in Sequoyah County, down in Vian, and I went to school way up there on the mountain, Morris Vann [district]. The reason it's Morris Vann is 3:00we were the Morris; my dad was [Luther] Morris. His brother was married to this other woman. She had eight children, I think, four girls and rest of them were boys. He left her with all them kids. I think, if I'm not mistaken, there might be one left. She's a little bit younger than I. Some of us, when we start getting older, we get absent-minded.

Little Thunder: What did your mom and dad do for a living?

Drywater: Nothing, there was no kind of job.

4:00

Little Thunder: Lived off the land?

Drywater: Yes. As we grew older, my sister and I and our oldest brother, we moved to Webbers Falls. My dad tried to work for farmers, but he sat around too much. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You had how many brothers and sisters?

Drywater: I just had two brothers and five sisters.

Little Thunder: Did you have grandparents on your mom's or dad's side that you knew?

Drywater: One, and that was Mama's mother. She got to be a hundred and eight. I think it was hundred and eight. The group from the church there in Vian come to 5:00my mother and asked her permission. "Can we go to county office somewhere where we can find how old your mother was, or what was her name?" I can't remember how much longer my--. My grandfather was my dad's dad, so there were a lot of people who thought that was Mr. and Mrs. Morris there.

Little Thunder: It was your grandpa on your dad's side, and your grandma on your mom's side.

Drywater: Yeah. When they found out exactly how old Grandma was, they come home, 6:00and they told Mom. They were so happy. (Laughs) Grandma, she left the house one day, and she's been wanting to go back and live close to--our church over there, but Mama wouldn't let her there because her furniture was not in there. Her bed was not there. She brought her back to the house, even though Grandma was beating up on Mom. She said, "Oh, that hurts! Oh, that hurts!" I said "Why? Did you fall?" She said, "No, my mother hit me." (Laughs) That's how strong she was.

Little Thunder: That's how strong she was. What about your exposure to Cherokee 7:00culture and language growing up?

Drywater: That's all we talked, Cherokee. As I grew older, I learned how to read English, talk English. I tried to go to school.

Little Thunder: Where at?

Drywater: Webbers Falls because that's where the flood was that year. I think I had just turned nine when that flood came. It didn't go in our house that we lived in. That was where my dad's boss' home was.

Little Thunder: That must have been scary.

Drywater: It was. After we came home, after the flood had stopped, Mama went 8:00looking around out there. There was a lot of driftwood right there behind the barn. Mama went out there and looked around, and she found this bucket. I'm sure you know what kind of can that could be. These people that owned that property over there killed a hog not long before the flood, and that grease from that hog meat was all in that big can. Mama took the can out of that water. There was not 9:00that much water in it because it was about this far from the top. Mama was so glad that there was no bad-looking water in it. She heated that grease lard out of that can and then washed the bucket. Then took all the other cans and pots and pans that she poured all that grease in, and poured it back in that can. They thought she was stealing it, but she told them, "No, this is yours. I was helping you so you can take it home and use it."

10:00

Little Thunder: That was valuable in those days.

Drywater: Yeah. When Mom and Dad stopped by at the grocery store there, Webbers Falls--I think that store was named by Hayes, Hayes Grocery Store. The only kind of flour they could give Mom and Dad was the flour that got wet. Some of it, it was okay. Some of it, it got soaking wet, all the way through.

Little Thunder: After the flood. How long did you go to school, a couple years?

Drywater: Just that fifth grade.

Little Thunder: Fifth grade, okay, and you learned sewing from your mom. Did you 11:00learn from her?

Drywater: No.

Little Thunder: No?

Drywater: I learned that from school, Morris Vann, my cousins. They were expert at sewing. Cornelia, she was the oldest sister they had there. She took care of her mother, her two sisters, and brother, Leo [Hooley]. He was the youngest. He married my other cousin as he grew older, and he moved with her to Vinita.

Little Thunder: Did your cousin have a sewing machine? Is that how she taught 12:00you, or did she teach you by hand?

Drywater: I was hanging onto them, and I watched what they did. They even sent us to Hastings Hospital to have our eyes checked. We were there (I can't remember how long we were there at Hastings, either) fifteen days, so they could get fully exam done to our eyes. Mama made an under slip out of a white wool material. When we got back from Hastings, our clothes were clean. They had time 13:00to do our laundry.

Little Thunder: They were able to clean everything?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: This was after the flood, too?

Drywater: This is before the flood.

Little Thunder: Before the flood, okay.

Drywater: We weren't living in Webbers Falls yet. We were living at Morris Vann, where the school is.

Little Thunder: I know you told this story in other interviews, but can you tell us again how you ended up making your first buffalo grass doll? (Laughter)

Drywater: I asked Mom to help me. "Show me how to make a doll, and can we put a dress on her?" She said, "I don't know. How do you put a dress on a grass doll?" 14:00(Laughter) I took over on that. She only showed me how to do that.

Little Thunder: Because you, right away, wanted to dress the doll. It wasn't enough to have the doll. You wanted to put a dress on it.

Drywater: My cousin, she cried. Every time she wanted something, she cried. My grandfather was living with them. All he had to do was put on clean clothes and walk to Vian. I think it's about four miles. He'd bring home--. He done the same way when they needed underwear. He would leave the house and go on to town and 15:00get what they needed.

Little Thunder: What did your sisters say after you made your first doll?

Drywater: They were happy.

Little Thunder: Did they want one, too?

Drywater: I think she made one. She made one. There were two of us. Let's see. She was the oldest one; my brother and her were the oldest. The two that went between us all--. I don't know. That's something else I have never thought about. There were two boys, and that's as far as I can get.

16:00

Little Thunder: When you were trying to find material for your first doll, where did you get it? From your cousin?

Drywater: Outside, in the trash.

Little Thunder: Oh! (Laughs) It was a little piece, and you had been watching your cousin sew. What was your first dress like that you made for the doll?

Drywater: I made it similar to what this one is, and that's all I've done since then.

Little Thunder: Did you want to make more dolls so they could play with each other? Did you want to play with your dolls?

Drywater: I do. I do. Then when my older daughter comes, Ida Sue, she said, "Mom, why don't you name each one of these?" I said, "I make too many of them. I don't have that many names." (Laughter) She set them up along the edge of the bed. When she gets through doing that, she comes back, and she's named each one 17:00of them.

Little Thunder: Your oldest daughter named each one of them for you when you were--.

Drywater: Yes, but I didn't use them.

Little Thunder: Buffalo grass is a native grass. I kind of thought of it as growing more in the woods, but does it grow in open areas?

Drywater: Right out there by the mailbox.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that it was--how available was it around your house when you were growing up? How much of it was there?

Drywater: Oh, I hated the stuff. (Laughs) I tried to--.

Little Thunder: There was a lot of it? When you were growing up, was there a lot of it by your house?

Drywater: It made my feet itch because I didn't have shoes. I walked around barefooted, and when I walked through that tall grass, (makes disgusted sound).

Little Thunder: When your mom showed you that you could use it for a doll, did 18:00that change?

Drywater: That was the happiest time of my life.

Little Thunder: I know that on your dolls now, you use broomcorn (is that right) for the arms sometimes?

Drywater: Sometime--I started with the corn husk, and I would stoop them in little bitty string-like--. Then I found out that I could buy some of that stuff at Muskogee--material stuff. I can't--. Anyway, when I was able to make more extra, I was doing this to buy clothes for my children, seven of them.

19:00

Little Thunder: How old were you when you started making the dolls to sell?

Drywater: Let's see. When my husband brought me and my kids from Vian to Tahlequah, that's when we started all--.

Little Thunder: That's when you started, okay. Tell me how you met your husband.

Drywater: I was a patient in the hospital, and he was working there. He was a goodie fellow.

Little Thunder: How did he find out about your dolls, that you could make them? How did your husband find out?

Drywater: He saw me doing it. Yeah, it was easy for me to make from where we 20:00lived. We lived there close to the hospital. He wasn't working there at the hospital yet. He started working at the old hospital out there by Northeastern [State University].

Little Thunder: When you were a young mother and you were making these dolls, were there other women in the area making buffalo grass dolls?

Drywater: No.

Little Thunder: How about in Morris Vann back then when your mom first showed you?

Drywater: No, no, nobody else.

Little Thunder: Only your mom was the only one who remembered.

Drywater: Only me and her were the stupid people. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: She knew how to do it, but she didn't do it very often. She 21:00showed you once, and--

Drywater: Yeah, and that was it.

Little Thunder: --then you wanted to.

Drywater: We'd go visit Grandma up on the mountain. While we were gone, at least one cow would find my little playhouse along the fence, and she grabbed that doll. For some reason, she never put it in her mouth. It was a little bit hanging right on the edge of the mouth.

Little Thunder: That's amazing.

Drywater: With that in mind, I went and followed her, and I got my doll back.

Little Thunder: You got your doll back, and she had her dress on? Did your doll have a dress on?

Drywater: Yeah. Sometimes I would get my brother's jeans legs, and I would try 22:00to make pants for it, but it didn't work out.

Little Thunder: So you stuck with the women dolls.

Drywater: Yeah, and as I grew older, I got a little bit better on doll dress making and doll making. I really enjoyed doing that. When he brought us here in Tahlequah, these people went crazy for the dolls, for the--. My sewing helped me put my children through school and buying their clothes. I didn't bother buying food; I was more concerned about getting their clothes. As she grew older, I 23:00think I kind of slowed down on making doll dresses, dolls because there were other things that I was doing, too. I can't remember what it was. Then I learned how--Becky, Susie, and Elaine, those are the three youngest girls I got. They signed up for basket weaving and beadwork, so I learned from them how to do all that.

Little Thunder: When you were selling your dolls to buy clothing, were you selling them to stores here in town?

Drywater: No, people from--I'd sell them to the gift shop.

24:00

Little Thunder: Okay, and that was before there were any art shows. There weren't any art shows yet.

Drywater: That one over where--.

Little Thunder: At Tsa-La-Gi? Had that started? That show had started?

Drywater: Oh, yeah, that one's been there a long time. There was a woman that worked there that lived in one of the new houses they built. She would give me a lot of information, advice, and different things. They tried to get me to make this kind of sweater, material that--

Little Thunder: A cotton?

Drywater: --stretchy material.

25:00

Little Thunder: Stretchy, okay.

Drywater: At the time, it was very new. Let's see. What was it called? I can't remember what it--.

Little Thunder: Was it a polyester blend?

Drywater: Yeah, polyester, and Squires opened up a store.

Little Thunder: Were you sewing for them, then, for a while?

Drywater: No, I did not sew for anybody, not until they found out about my work, about doll making, dress making, even though there were a lot of other women that would come in with different pattern. Let's see now. This one woman from Hulbert brought one material, a kind of half-circle, and she put it over her 26:00help. This young lady would put it on. I saw how that could go. They goofed up on it because if she got ahold of somewhere where that material would get caught up on a nail or something, she would be in trouble there. I tried to tell her that, but no, so I quit. I quit trying to talk to her. Seems like she died, that woman did. They can put too much pressure on you.

27:00

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you made ribbon shirts for a while. Did you make tear dresses, too?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: Do you remember when Virginia Stroud wore that tear dress as Miss Indian America? Do you remember the first--. It was the official tear dress pattern.

Drywater: Yes, it might be her hanging in there.

Little Thunder: Okay, you might have a picture of that?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: When you were selling your clothing and your dresses, was it also to individuals who would ask you to make them?

Drywater: Whoever wanted a dress made, I did it.

Little Thunder: Did your husband help you with your business at all?

Drywater: No

Little Thunder: Okay. (Laughs)

Drywater: That sort of thing was my business, not his. (Laughter)

28:00

Little Thunder: When did you start making faces for your dolls? Always, from the beginning?

Drywater: Yeah, from the beginning because I--. When we still lived down Vian, up the creek from town, I would dig around in Mama's scraps, see if I can find some piece of cloth that was red so I could get the thread off of it. Black thread, Mama always had black thread.

Little Thunder: You weren't even taking scraps. You were taking thread from the scraps to make the eyes and the mouth?

Drywater: I used that red for the mouth. For the eyes, I used Mama's thread. (Laughter)

29:00

Little Thunder: She didn't mind, I guess. Did she know?

Drywater: Well, yeah, after she found out, she said I was wasting her thread.

Little Thunder: Did you work in the Cherokee Village when it first started?

Drywater: No, but I got to be friends with a lot of people there and this woman that had two or three young men, her sons. Then her and her husband got back together, and he took her on a long trip. In and out of that trip, she got sick. She was allergic to something, and so she said she'll never go back again. (Laughs)

30:00

Little Thunder: I wondered if you had shown your--. Did you go to Cherokee, North Carolina, at all?

Drywater: No.

Little Thunder: You didn't travel?

Drywater: No, but the people traveled over here.

Little Thunder: They came here from North Carolina?

Drywater: Tahlequah, yes. There were a lot of them.

Little Thunder: Have some of the people from North Carolina seen your dolls?

Drywater: I used to get letters from them, long time ago. Since they've started something new, I guess they thought, "Let her go." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What did the letters say?

Drywater: I don't remember.

Little Thunder: Maybe asking about your dolls in some way.

Drywater: Some time later, some years later, I started sending dolls to Tennessee, Georgia, California.

31:00

Little Thunder: To different people in those states?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: Have you sold any dolls to museums? Have any museums bought your dolls?

Drywater: They don't have none now because they sold out, and I ran out making them.

Little Thunder: I bet some of the gift stores, yeah.

Drywater: When I go out and find some more grass, I'll be using pick to dig a little bit, so dig around it to make that grass roots a little bit longer. The way it is now, if I pull it up out of the ground, it might be this long. (Gestures)

Little Thunder: I wanted to talk to you about that because sometimes in traditional way, they talk about plants, and they'll say, "This is male," or, 32:00"This is female." Do they talk about buffalo grass that way? Do you mind sharing the Cherokee word for "buffalo grass"?

Drywater: Let's see. [Inaudible] buffalo grass. Yanasi: buffalo. Ganulai, grass. I didn't look at it that way when I was growing up. It was covering the foot trail up there on top of the hill. I would be dancing, stomping my feet. "Mom, let's bring the hoe next time we come,"--

Little Thunder: To make more dolls. (Laughs)

Drywater: --so I could dig up that grass.

Little Thunder: You mentioned you don't want to get them when the roots are 33:00short. You want to wait until it's longer. What's the right season for that? What's the best time?

Drywater: May.

Little Thunder: Is it still May, or is it different?

Drywater: No, it quit being May, gosh, I think when I turned eighty-four. That's a few months back.

Little Thunder: What's the most fun place that you ever sold a doll or took a doll?

Drywater: The gift shops in Muskogee, Indian, that old hospital. Let's see. Where else was it? They would call us in to be at the museum in Tulsa.

34:00

Little Thunder: Okay, was that at the Gilcrease Museum?

Drywater: Yeah, yeah.

Little Thunder: Was that for Cherokee artists only, or was it a whole bunch of people?

Drywater: There were a lot of Indians there. I don't know. Seemed like most of them was people that I knew.

Little Thunder: It was a lot of baskets, that kind of thing, three-dimensional?

Drywater: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Have you worked with Jane Osti a little bit? I know she--.

Drywater: I don't do her kind of work, even though I've tried.

Little Thunder: I think she's tried to promote the Living Treasures' work. Did you ever have dolls at her shop?

35:00

Drywater: No, if she asked me, I think she's only asked me once to leave four or six dolls. I have left her some dolls for her to sell.

Little Thunder: When you demonstrate, what's the hardest part about demonstrating when you're showing people how to do this?

Drywater: When they try to tell me how to do it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Have you demonstrated for young children?

Drywater: Yes, I used to go to Grove once a year. I had my own car then.

Little Thunder: With the Indian education program?

36:00

Drywater: I used to remember that lady that would write invitation letters to those, the one that were going to be there that day. I can't remember her name anymore. It's been such a long time ago.

Little Thunder: Who's your favorite group to show how to make a buffalo grass doll?

Drywater: Who?

Little Thunder: What age?

Drywater: Big enough where they--maybe five.

Little Thunder: Maybe five or six. Do they pay pretty good attention?

Drywater: Oh, yes. Oh, yes, they love it, especially if they finish it themselves. I did it for them, and they had their face right against me while I 37:00was tying string on it. That helped me because--.

Little Thunder: It's nice to know they're so interested, right?

Drywater: Yeah, yeah, that way, they don't lose their interest.

Little Thunder: What's the funniest thing that ever happened when you were demonstrating for children?

Drywater: None that I can remember. I don't remember anything about that.

Little Thunder: When Cherokee Nation, the Osiyo channel, came and made a video of you working on the dolls, what was your reaction when they wanted to come 38:00videotape you?

Drywater: I don't know. "Help yourself." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: No nervousness on camera?

Drywater: No.

Little Thunder: Did you watch that afterwards?

Drywater: No, I didn't even watch the one they were showing in Oklahoma City where Jerry [Webber]--. He was already gone. They were showing that picture of me, demonstrating things. Jerry had gone round this side, I guess, to see the chickens. He found two red roosters. They took picture of him, standing right around here somewhere and showing him. I didn't go any further because sometimes 39:00people will say things, whether you like it or not. They'll say something to you. That hurts.

Little Thunder: Oh, something that's negative?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: That was the TV station in Oklahoma City that made that video?

Drywater: I guess, because Jerry, seems like Jerry was here before, and that white woman, Karen [Keith].

Little Thunder: I remember that name.

Becky CollinsIt was Channel Two.

Drywater: Okay.

40:00

Little Thunder: Were you not interested in watching it, or were you just too busy?

Drywater: I was too busy. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How do you feel about the Cherokee Living Treasure Award?

Drywater: I don't know. That's something I have never thought about it, but when they give me something like that, I'll hang it up in the hallway.

Little Thunder: Yeah, because you have the award. You've been recognized as a Living Treasure.

Drywater: Yeah, I got all those things hanging there.

Little Thunder: What do you think about the idea of having a Living Treasure? Do you think it's a good thing? Do you think they should do the program the way they do it, or are there changes that you would make if you were in charge of it?

41:00

Drywater: No, I like it. It's their way of doing it, so I'm not going to bother them. If somebody steps in, like Roger Cain, now, I'm liable to get out there and kick you-know-what. (Laughter) No, I wouldn't kick him. I've got my two-by-fours. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When you're making your dolls, do you have to let them cure? Do you have to let them dry before you make a dress for them?

Drywater: I'll have the dresses made for them whenever I finish the dolls. When I make the dolls, I will get it with--let me see if I can find it. -- I thought I'll try to show you.

42:00

CollinsThese are the different ones. These are different. Those are for something else.

Little Thunder: We've got some short buffalo grass and then the longer--

Drywater: Yes.

CollinsI don't think you have any made.

Little Thunder: --that has the hair.

Drywater: See how short the roots are?

Little Thunder: I see, yeah.

Drywater: I'm wanting some longer roots.

Little Thunder: Right, because the hair doesn't turn out right if you don't get it long enough.

Drywater: No, but whenever the roots are long, boy, that's when I really go nuts.

Little Thunder: I did read--I know you told me that you used corn husks for a while for the arms.

Drywater: Yeah, I did for a while.

Little Thunder: Then you moved to broomcorn?

43:00

Drywater: No, that stuff from gift shop.

Little Thunder: From the gift shop was what you were using for the arms.

Drywater: Where is it, that one that I--. Here's part of it.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, yeah, feels like straw. Okay, yeah, that braids really easily, doesn't it? That would be easy to work with.

Drywater: This is about the right length for the arms.

Little Thunder: That's the right length for the arms, okay, neat.

Drywater: I'm anxious to start making dolls.

Little Thunder: You're ready to start again, but it'll be spring? Will you be 44:00waiting? You can work with those.

Drywater: Yeah, what little I can use here.

Little Thunder: A little scrap of material, okay. You said that you save some of your--.

Drywater: I save what little roots I get. Sometimes I'll get a whole boxful. -- A lot of people don't understand how I do these things.

Little Thunder: And you'll add it on when the hair's too thin, basically?

Drywater: Yeah, see right there, that one. Just add a little bit more to it and make it a little bit longer.

45:00

Little Thunder: Right, they're so pretty. They're very refined. How long did it take you to get to feel like you were making--you could tell a difference that they were really getting good, your dolls?

Drywater: I don't know.

Little Thunder: About eight years?

Drywater: Something like that, or it could be in the time because when I start making dolls, I want to work on them.

Little Thunder: I was going to ask you that, too. How long do you work on them? Do you--.

Drywater: Sometimes all day

Little Thunder: All day, okay. Start in the morning?

Drywater: See, I'm home by myself. My husband's at work, and my children are at school. I'll have a big pot of beans on the stove, and then I'll make cornbread. 46:00I will get away from my work a few minutes, and that's when I get everything ready.

Little Thunder: Did you get nervous when you were taking things to people, asking the gift shops?

Drywater: No, I was the business person.

Little Thunder: You were a good business person.

Drywater: Yeah.

Little Thunder: It's kind of fun to talk to different people, too, isn't it?

Drywater: Yeah, it is, because they come up with their own idea of doing things for this, that, and whatever. Then I'll pop up with another question. "Have you tried to make a doll out of different types of limb or wood?" "No, no, I have 47:00never tried it." "Well, try it sometimes." I said, "All you got to do is make their shoulders and down to their hips, and then add legs to the hip part. Then add arms on the shoulder. Then for their face, whittle that face on the face."

Little Thunder: You were telling them that they could make--. Did you ever make any of those stick ones?

Drywater: Yeah.

Little Thunder: You did, okay.

Drywater: My sister, the one that died, started making them out of--. I took her some roots from--. This is where I get lost. I guess I must have been back here 48:00somewhere, where I found the walnut roots, and she made heads. She done a good job of it.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow, and that walnut is hard to--.

Drywater: These, if they can be found--where anything like that can be located and picked up from there, to go ahead and finish up what was started. --

Little Thunder: -- In the course of making these dolls, when was a time when--. Becky's the one that said she was interested, right, of your daughters?

Drywater: Yeah, because I was getting to where I couldn't do anything. All I 49:00could do was sit back and show her how to do it, and she done a good job of it. After I'm gone, it's all hers.

Little Thunder: She'll know how to make them. As you look back on this time that you were making dolls, making clothing, what was one of your favorite moments? What was a highlight for you? Was it receiving an award, or was it--.

Drywater: I never thought about awards. All I thought about was the money and whose clothes was I going to buy them.

Little Thunder: When you see your dolls, or your clothing on different men, (and you mentioned you saw some ribbon shirts on some men) what's that like when you see your clothing on people?

Drywater: I was happy to see it. (Laughs)

50:00

Little Thunder: Because it's still, people are still wearing them.

Drywater: Yeah, they were in good condition, the ribbon that I sewed on them. Two men, each one was wearing a ribbon shirt that I had made.

Little Thunder: That's neat. -- Becky, is there anything--we're about to wrap up here. Is there anything that you think would be important to add to the interview?

CollinsProbably when she went to Washington.

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah, with Cherokee Nation on the Mall?

CollinsYeah.

Drywater: Well, we came from Oklahoma City. The couple from Oklahoma City paid for everything.

Little Thunder: Wow, and they helped a small group of artists go out to the Smithsonian?

Drywater: Whoever was able to do it. Only one goofed up. He lied, but that was 51:00his doing.

Little Thunder: About what he made?

Drywater: Yeah and, boy, that was a really big mistake. He was a very nice person. You could sit there and talk with him all day.

Little Thunder: Did you go with her?

CollinsNo.

Little Thunder: Okay, so what was it like being in--you'd never been to Washington, DC, before, had you, when you went--.

Drywater: No, I made a lot of friends, and one that--. Two of us, they put us together in one room. Each woman would be with another woman, and so on. We had our own beds, of course. (Laughter)

52:00

Little Thunder: Did you go for walks?

Drywater: Oh, yeah, but we were too busy, really. Even Johnnie Lee Wills was there, and he ate with us in that one room. There were some more young people that played different music from Oklahoma City and around there close by.

Little Thunder: How fun. Did you have good sales up there, or did you not sell? Were you just demonstrating?

Drywater: I was just showing how to do this. "If you would like to have some more, let me know, and I'll send you one," so they did.

Little Thunder: Among your friends now who work in arts and crafts, are there a lot of speakers that you can still talk to?

Drywater: No, my roommate, she got killed after she got home to Bartlesville, 53:00the next town, going towards Kansas. It was a man that had no right to break into her house, and he stole her Cherokee dress that I made her. I think I made two dresses for her, but I didn't make any ribbon shirt for her husband. Her niece--I can't remember how many there were. They tried to put up a fight to see 54:00who did it. They killed her; they took all the Indian clothes, Indian stuff that she had. She even had a nephew that was going to Northeastern. My son was working there, and Raymond got all the information that he could give me. When he came home, he said, "Mom, so-and-so aunt died. She got killed." I said, "She was my roommate when we was in Washington." That blew everything up because he didn't know I knew her. Then some years later, I was called to Oklahoma City, 55:00and then we all sat up over there in a dining room in Oklahoma City. The woman there was a Cherokee, but her husband was a white man. She had a son was a lawyer. She started getting sick, so her son and his wife came home to haul her 56:00in Mexico somewhere where they lived. She didn't last long. She died, even though she had written to me and asked me to send her some dolls that she thought that she could help.

Little Thunder: Help sell them?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: And she was a speaker?

Drywater: Yes.

Little Thunder: Is there anything that you'd like to share before we close the interview, about why you so enjoy this work, and--.

Drywater: I still do. I'm looking forward to this summer to get some more--. These sticks are called broomweeds.

Little Thunder: Okay, broomweed. Farmers used to not like that very much.

57:00

Drywater: It grows about this tall. Grandma had a whole field full of that, broomweeds. My brother stayed--she raised my brother. When he found out that she had a new broom, he would come in real quick, then cut the broom handle off. He used that stick for--axle for his little wagon. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That broomweed, what did they use that for?

Drywater: That's what this--. (Gestures)

Little Thunder: The body?

58:00

Drywater: The strength of--. This is broomweed here.

Little Thunder: It reinforces the skirt area, makes it strong. It has that shape, too, that flare shape.

Drywater: Yeah, it's like--.

Little Thunder: Is the broomweed still pretty easy to find?

Drywater: Yeah, I used to drive around out there on the side of the road, slow. Make sure there's no cars coming from this direction or that direction. I'd be driving along to see if there's any broomweeds out there.

Little Thunder: Right, in the little channel.

Drywater: The older people used to use that to make cough syrup.

Little Thunder: Okay, that's what it was used for. You mentioned that sometimes 59:00older men or even younger people will tell you they're willing to help you find buffalo grass?

Drywater: Yeah, yeah.

Little Thunder: They will get some for you?

Drywater: They were still doing that here a few days ago, my oldest daughter, Ida Sue's new husband. They just got together. I think they're supposed to get married sometime in Arkansas.

Little Thunder: He offered to go dig some buffalo grass for you?

Drywater: He said he will help me whenever--.

Little Thunder: Oh, good, when it's spring again.

Drywater: Yeah, May is the right time, but some people don't care. They're going to dig it, anyhow, or either pull it up out of the ground. When my husband went fishing, we'd go, where that little store is, Keys, go past that and go on down 60:00to the river bank. I'd follow him around. The reason I was with him was I wanted to get some of that plastic fishing line. I used that to sew the heads.

Little Thunder: Okay, people's plastic line that had got snagged.

Drywater: Yeah, sometimes those lines would be on a little limb out there.

Little Thunder: That was a good place to go get it. (Laughs)

Drywater: Yeah, it was, and I really enjoyed myself. I didn't get in his way. I told him, "If I'm ever getting in your way, you let me know. Don't yell at me." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Might scare the fish, right?

Drywater: Yeah. (Laughter)

61:00

Little Thunder: Well, thank you for your time today, Lorene.

Drywater: I enjoyed it.

------- End of interview -------