Oral history interview with Tyra Shackleford

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, [November] 9, 2016. I'm interviewing Tyra Shackleford for the Oklahoma Native Artist project, sponsored by Oklahoma State University's Oklahoma Oral History Research Program. We're at Tyra's home in Ada, Oklahoma. Tyra, you're a Chickasaw citizen, best known for your finger weaving. You do everything from traditional sashes to guitar straps. You also work full-time for Chickasaw Nation. You've won a lot of awards for your art, and I'm looking forward to learning more about you and your work.

Shackleford: Thanks.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Shackleford: I was born in Oklahoma City, and then I grew up in Noble [Oklahoma]. I graduated high school from Purcell. I went to college here in Ada, at East Central University and right after that, started working for the 1:00Chickasaw Nation.

Little Thunder: Wow, great job to get out of school. (Laughter) Tell me a little bit about what your mother and father do for a living.

Shackleford: Both my parents are teachers. My dad teaches math and computer science. My mom teaches chemistry and some other secondary sciences like physical science, environmental science, those sorts of things.

Little Thunder: How about brothers or sisters?

Shackleford: I have one sister. She currently lives right outside of DC. She hasn't been home for a long time now. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Is she older sister?

Shackleford: She's three years younger.

Little Thunder: Your father's also an artist and well-known for doing a lot of different things. Can you describe some of the things you were exposed to 2:00growing up in your household?

Shackleford: Growing up, my dad--when I was young, (I was probably about eight or ten, somewhere around there) we started getting involved with our culture. The things I remember doing when I was little, we went to language classes; we went to Chickasaw Community Council meetings. In '98, (I was about twelve) the Chickasaw Nation Dance Troupe started. We were going to Stomp Dances out at Kullihoma [Grounds], and we were going to do dance demonstrations with the dance troupe. Been around that since I was young. That's how I started doing my finger weaving, also, is I wanted to make a belt to match my dress. I had to learn how to finger weave and never stopped after that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's great. How about your relationship with your grandparents on either side? The Chickasaw is on your dad's side?

Shackleford: Yes. My family, I would say being Chickasaw was not really passed down in my family much. My original enrollee is my great-grandma. Her mother was Chickasaw, and her father was Choctaw. Her mother passed away when she was a year old, so she was raised by grandparents. I'm not sure if she was raised her--because her father was white, also. I'm not sure if she was raised by her white grandparents or her Indian grandparents. When I asked my grandma about it, 4:00my grandma said, "Well, Mama never talked about her family much," so I don't know what happened there. My grandparents started getting interested about the same time my dad did, I think. They've been real involved with the Chickasaw Community Council in their area, and now they're involved with the Senior Site and elders activities and that sort of thing.

Little Thunder: Yes, and there's a lot of things to be involved with, (Laughs) a lot of good programs. What is your first memory, then, of seeing Native art?

Shackleford: When I was a little kid, we used to go to Red Earth. My JOM [Johnson-O'Malley] organization would have a summer camp every summer, and they 5:00would bring in artists. Usually, it was the same time as Red Earth, so we would go to Red Earth. Some of the artists that they brought in taught us traditional crafts, and then I remember walking around all the artists' booths at Red Earth when I was little. Then for a long time, I didn't really think about Native art after that. I think I was more focused on traditional crafts for a long time. When I met my husband, I knew how to do several traditional crafts, but he encouraged me to get involved in the arts because that's his background. He kept telling me that I could do so much more with what I knew how to do, so that's how I started getting involved in the arts again. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's pretty cool that individual artists were coming in and 6:00demonstrating, teaching you how to do things. Then you're kind of being led to make that connection between that and the markets, as well, because you're seeing those people display and sell their work.

Shackleford: Yeah, it was good.

Little Thunder: Was that an additional motivator?

Shackleford: I don't think I thought about it until I had my husband's encouragement. I think I was raised going to Cultural Resources activities. Cultural Resources is a department within the Chickasaw Nation, so I was raised going to these activities, going out to the Stomp Dances. We had one big event every summer that was called Chikasha Reunion. Tons of demonstrators out there teaching crafts. I think I always thought about their traditional crafts, and I 7:00never thought how those could expand into art or grow into art until my husband showed me that those things can be art.

Little Thunder: How about your first memories of making any type of art?

Shackleford: The first thing I think I remember making--. I don't remember what we did with JOM; I was so little. (Laughs) I was eight, nine, ten, somewhere in there. The first thing I remember making was at Kullihoma, which is our stomp grounds. It was during Chikasha Reunion, and I learned how to make the beaded collars that are traditional for our regalia. After that, I learned how to finger weave.

Little Thunder: Who taught you finger weaving?

Shackleford: A few different women showed me some things, but the main one was Wisey. I don't ever know if I say her last name correctly because I was little back then. It's Narcomey--. She's a Seminole elder, and she used to dance with us when I was little. She's also one of the women that taught me how to shake shells.

Little Thunder: Cool!

Shackleford: Yeah. She was a master. I haven't seen her in about five years maybe. She was in her mid-eighties the last time I saw her, but she was still finger weaving, which is amazing. I think she's one of the best to learn from.

Little Thunder: Were you always drawn to three-dimensional from the time you were little, more so than drawing?

Shackleford: I think so. I think I don't have the patience for drawing or painting, but when I'm creating something with my hands, which--. I don't know. 9:00You're creating things with your hands when you're drawing or painting, but this is different. When I'm making things, I have the patience to do that, so that's what I've always enjoyed. I think things like basket weaving, I know how to do, but it's not something I enjoy doing. Finger weaving is what I enjoy the most. Beadwork, I used to enjoy, but I haven't done it in probably about five or six years. I haven't--. It's not as fun as weaving.

Little Thunder: What did you enjoy about Wisey's teaching approach?

Shackleford: She would sit down and show you. I don't know if there's any other 10:00way to approach teaching it. When I teach people, I think I teach them the same way I was taught: sit down and show and let them start doing it, and then help them out while they're doing it if they make a mistake and need help fixing it. I think that's the best way to go about doing it.

Little Thunder: How about your exposure to anything in the public schools, say at the elementary school level, in terms of art?

Shackleford: I don't really remember anything. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How about junior high or high school?

Shackleford: I remember we had to take art class in junior high, but I don't 11:00remember much about it, either. I remember we made loom-beaded bracelets. That was about seventh or eighth grade. Then I didn't take an art class in high school. I did band and athletics and never fit that into my schedule.

Little Thunder: What did you do after high school?

Shackleford: I got a degree in chemistry.

Little Thunder: From East Central University?

Shackleford: Yes, and I've never used it. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You went into college interested in science already. Did you immediately declare a chemistry major?

Shackleford: I started out thinking I would be a teacher like my parents, so I signed up for the secondary education chemistry. Then when I saw all the 12:00education classes that were required, I changed my mind. (Laughs) I got a degree in chemistry and a minor in math. Then after college--. I graduated on a Saturday, and Monday I already had a job lined up because my last semester, I was looking for a job the whole last semester. I immediately went to work in the Chickasaw Nation Cultural Resources Department. I knew that the tribe was working on the Cultural Center in Sulphur. I knew the director of the Cultural Resources department, so I said, "When you start doing interviews, I want to apply." That's how I got in. I think because I grew up around all those people involved in that department, and they knew the knowledge that I grew up 13:00learning, that helped me get that job. I worked there for, gosh, 2009 until spring of this year, so about six years. I worked in history and culture and cultural resources.

Little Thunder: What types of things were you doing?

Shackleford: I started out as a demonstrator at the Cultural Center.

Little Thunder: Mainly doing finger weaving?

Shackleford: We tried to do something different every day, so I'm knowledgeable in many of our traditional crafts. I wouldn't say I'm a master in all of them, but I know how to do them. It was really good. I'm very thankful for that opportunity. Then we would do dance demonstrations all the time. After a few 14:00years of doing that, I moved up to Special Projects Coordinator and started helping plan a lot of the events that we did. Did that for a number of years. Now I work in Nutrition Services, which was another promotion because now I have a manager position, so that's a good thing.

Little Thunder: Congratulations. How did you meet your husband?

Shackleford: We were actually--. I was on a date with someone, and we went to the bar.

Little Thunder: Is this at East Central?

Shackleford: This is in Ada. The date that I was seeing was friends with James, and he introduced me to James, my husband. It wasn't a serious thing. It was a 15:00very casual thing, and when I met James, I was like, "He's really interesting. I need to get to know that guy." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Because he was already working as a photographer a little, or interested in photography?

Shackleford: He also worked for the Chickasaw Nation, and he worked in Arts and Humanities [Division]. I think our initial connection was talking about music interests, but we got to know each other more and more. He's really smart and well-educated, and involved in the arts, and has a great work ethic. I just liked him a lot. I had to pursue him. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So you two get married, and you're still doing your traditional 16:00work. You start a family, and you're still working, correct?

Shackleford: Our family is a little different because this is our third marriage for both of us. We've only been married three years. We dated for two years before we got married, but our son is from my previous marriage. After we were married for a year, James adopted our son. James is the only guy that our son knows. That's his dad because he doesn't know anyone else. Then we had a baby. She'll be a year old next week, so we started out not--it's not a traditional situation.

Little Thunder: You've kind of talked about that moment that was a turning point 17:00for you, when James said you really should think of what you're doing, which you were thinking of as traditional crafts more as belonging to the arts. It's true. That's a distinction that sometimes Native cultures don't draw those hard, fast lines. How did that work on you? How did his suggestion open doors for you?

Shackleford: I think because he was working for Arts and Humanities, he kept telling me I could do more. At the time, I was making traditional belts for work and on the side for people that would come ask me to make them a belt.

Little Thunder: A lot of commissions, I'm sure.

Shackleford: Yes. He said, "You can do more with this. You don't have to do just 18:00belts. You can think outside the box, and you can do more." He really encouraged me to enter Southeastern Art Show and Market [SEASAM], which is a show that the Chickasaw Nation does in Tishomingo in October. I was like, "Okay."

Little Thunder: What year was this?

Shackleford: Two thousand eleven. I can't remember without going back to look at my list of awards, but I won an award that year.

Little Thunder: For a--.

Shackleford: I think that one was a belt, actually, but then the next year, I did some belts and some shadow boxes.

Little Thunder: You're putting the belts inside of a shadow--you're shadow-boxing them. Is that what you're saying?

Shackleford: I made smaller sections of weaving and framed them in a shadow box, and he kept saying, "You can do more than that." Then I started making some 19:00large pieces. Finger weaving is good for making narrow bands, but it's not good for making large pieces of fabric. There are easier ways to do that, but I was determined. I made this piece that was about this wide, and I made it into a purse.

Little Thunder: You're showing me probably about twelve inches.

Shackleford: Yes, it was the whole front panel of a purse is what I wove. It was one solid piece, and that one won a First Place at SEASAM. I think every year I've tried to do something different. I have made a large finger-woven shawl. I've expanded some of my techniques. I still--. Now it's not just finger weaving 20:00anymore. I specialize in prehistoric techniques that my ancestors used. I do finger weaving, I do twining, and I do, the technical term would be interlinking or intertwining, but the more common term is sprang, S-P-R-A-N-G. With all of these techniques, I'm trying to create things that are modern pieces. For example, twining traditionally was used to make skirts, but they look very different from a skirt that I made two or three years ago.

Little Thunder: Which was twined?

Shackleford: Yes. I made one, and we used it for--. Dynamic Women [of the Chickasaw Nation]'s Conference had a fashion show a couple years ago, and so one of the girls wore that skirt. It looked amazing, but it looked very modern. It 21:00didn't look like an artifact from a couple thousand years ago. I try to use these three ancient, ancient techniques, and I try to create new things with them. Every year, I'm doing something different and trying to do more than what I did the year before.

Little Thunder: That's sounds so interesting. Now, the twining, I've heard that used in connection with capes, of course, too. It's really neat to hear about your skirt, and I hope we can maybe see a picture eventually or something.

Shackleford: I don't know if I have a picture, to be honest.

Little Thunder: Well, we'll see if we can work on that. Thinking in terms of then some other shows, I know that you were using one of these techniques at your first Indian Market for your first entry. Is that correct?

Shackleford: This year, I entered a sprang cape that I created. This was my 22:00second year at Indian Market. Last year, I'm trying to think what I entered. I think I entered all finger-woven pieces last year.

Little Thunder: Did you--.

Shackleford: Not last year.

Little Thunder: Okay, didn't place, but what was it like doing Indian Market for the first time?

Shackleford: I was so excited to be there because, to me, it was an accomplishment to get there. It was a goal of mine, but I didn't think I would reach that goal so quickly. I thought I would have to wait several years before I made it because several of my artist friends have always said, "Oh, you have to apply a few years before you get in." Having a full-time job and having a family, I always struggled with building up inventory and doing more and more 23:00shows. In 2014, I kept telling myself, "Oh, when I retire--." Then I did this workshop with First Peoples Fund. Ryan Lee Smith, he's a Cherokee artist, he was one of the instructors for the workshop. I said that in the class. I said, "Oh, when I retire I can do this." He said, "Why not? Why can't you do it right now?" I would list my normal excuses. "I don't have time to make enough pieces. I don't have vacation time to go." He kept saying, "Why not?" Finally, I was like, "You know what? Why not? I'll try." Then the very next year, I got in. My first show was very exciting just to be there. I was so excited.

Little Thunder: Did James, did the whole family go with you?

Shackleford: James went. We both got in, which was so surprising. That was his first year, too.

Little Thunder: You shared a booth?

Shackleford: Yes, was his first year to apply, also. We applied for Indian Market, and we also applied for the IFAM [Indigenous Fine Art Market] show, which it was the second year for IFAM. I thought, "Maybe we'll get into one of them," and we got into both of them. We had to operate two shows. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a real challenge.

Shackleford: It was, but we shared a booth at both shows. IFAM ran Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Indian Market ran Saturday, Sunday. We were only separated the one day, manning both booths. I was pregnant at the time because that was in August, and I was due in November. It was a lot of fun, though. This year is 25:00when I won some awards at Indian Market, and I was speechless.

Little Thunder: Tell us what you entered.

Shackleford: I entered the sprang cape. It was completely buffalo hair yarn, and then it had a hand-carved shell shawl pin on it. I do have pictures of that one.

Little Thunder: Did you also make the [pin]?.Shackleford: I didn't make it, but that one won Best of Division and First Place in its--. I can't remember. Category, maybe, is right underneath division. Then I also entered a finger-woven shawl, and that one got Honorable Mention. My dad carved a deer antler button for me on that one. I was quite surprised, my second year there, 26:00to win three awards but very happy because there's not any work like what I'm creating at Indian Market. There's a lot of traditional Navajo rug weavers. I say Navajo, but there are other tribes, too. Traditional rug weaving, that's one whole category by itself. There's some fashion designers. I think Penny Singer was out there, and B. Yellowtail. I actually think I was competing against one of them with my capes. There's not anybody using the techniques that I'm using, 27:00and there's not anyone creating pieces like what I'm creating. That's really exciting to be doing that right now. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: For sure. Did you sell both those pieces?

Shackleford: I still have the shawl, but I sold the cape. I was very excited about that. A very nice gentleman from Texas bought it for his wife. It was bittersweet because I wanted to enter it in two more shows after that, but that's okay.

Little Thunder: How did you figure out--when you made that transition from doing things that you thought of more as traditional crafts into these traditional art applications, how did you know how to price your work?

Shackleford: Before, when I first started, I think I priced my pieces too low. I 28:00know I priced my pieces too low. The workshop that I took with the First Peoples Fund, one of the things that they discuss in that workshop, because it's an artist and business type workshop, pricing your work was one of the topics we covered. I use a formula that I learned from that workshop to price my pieces, and I've been doing that for a couple years now. I think it works. I think sometimes I still struggle because I feel like maybe I'm pricing my things too high, but I have to remind myself that what I'm creating takes hours and hours. It needs to be priced where it's at. I think where it's at is good. I'm like, 29:00"Oh, I want someone to buy this." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When you started finger weaving, and there are some mainstay patterns, I guess, what was the hardest pattern for you to learn? What was the most challenging?

Shackleford: I think when I started adapting the basic patterns to create a really special piece, that was the hardest one. For finger weaving, your basic patterns are diagonal, chevron, lightning, diamond, arrowhead, and then you can get more complicated. You can get double lightning and different things, but I 30:00wanted to create a Chickasaw-style, Stomp-Dance-style belt, inspired by the assumption sashes, which are different than the belts that we wear. Those assumption sashes are very wide, and they're made with a thread that's a lot thinner than ours. The pattern is like a double lightning, only you have a whole bunch of lightning bands. I wanted to do that for a Chickasaw belt.

I created (I call it) my flame design, and that was hard, figuring out how to make it look the way I wanted it to. That's also the design that has taken the most time. The first one I made, my dad wears. I said, "Never again am I making this belt," (Laughter) and then I did it again. I have one; my dad has one; and 31:00one of our other Stomp dancers has one that's not quite like mine and my dad's, but it incorporates a little bit of that design into it. I keep saying, "Never again," but my son dances, so I'll probably make him one. When my daughter gets older, I'll probably make her one. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Right, you need to do that. What's one of the best compliments you've ever gotten on your work?

Shackleford: I think--. Let me think a second. That's a hard question to answer. I hear a lot of, "Oh, this is so beautiful!" It wasn't necessarily a specific 32:00compliment, but I think what helped me feel most validated in what I do is two years ago at Red Earth, my booth was next to a jeweler from New Mexico. I'm blanking on his last name. His first name is Jimmy; it's a father and son. At first, they were like--they didn't come out and say it, but I could tell from their body language and their expressions, "What's this little white girl doing next to us?" Then I set up my booth. I tend to take my weaving with me and work on it if it's slow. The first morning I sat down, and I was weaving. Then they 33:00started paying attention.

The son, he came over, and he's like, "That's how you do that!" The next couple of days, he'd come ask me questions, and he found it really interesting because he hadn't ever seen anyone weave, using finger weaving before. He was more familiar with the weaving that they have out in New Mexico. That helped me feel validated. It helped me feel like I belong and what I'm doing is good because I do struggle with that sometimes, the "You don't look Indian." Also, I think Chickasaw art's not known. Southeastern art's not known. The techniques that I'm using are not as common as other textile techniques.

Little Thunder: Yeah, that's been a challenge for Southeastern artists, as well. Have you ever traveled out of state or had any work go out of state or out of the country?

Shackleford: A few years ago, I had some pieces on loan for an exhibit that was a yearlong at the McKissick Museum [University of South Carolina], and now I'm blanking if it was North or South Carolina, to be honest. I think they had three pieces for about a year, and then I got them back. I've done shows. I did the Indian Market and IFAM in Santa Fe. I had one piece, actually, (where did it go?) it went to Africa somewhere. I have the gentleman's letter. I'll have to go back and find it now. He was actually going on a mission trip. He was Chickasaw, 35:00so he wanted traditional regalia to take with him. He was very interested in doing some sharing of cultures, and learning the culture where he was going, and then also sharing our culture. He ordered a belt, and I only had a week to make it.

Little Thunder: Oh, my goodness! (Laughs)

Shackleford: I know. Then I think when he went, he left it out there with someone. He wrote a letter, and I'll have to go back and find the letter. I'm pretty sure he left it in Africa, so I have a belt in Africa. (Laughter) I have been accepted to a traveling exhibit that will be--. In 2018, it will be touring. A few months ago, they announced who was accepted into this exhibit, 36:00and it's an exhibit comprised of only Chickasaw artists. The purpose is to show Chickasaw contemporary art. We have a whole timeline, so I have a little bit less than a year to create a piece for it. There's one piece I already have created that they are going to take. That's going to travel. We don't even know all of the sites yet it will go to. We know it will travel the country, but they're also looking at traveling internationally. I will keep my fingers crossed on that one. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Yes, I hope that happens. -- I think I saw that there's a book that's come out focused on Chickasaw women artisans, and you're in that book.

Shackleford: Yes, I think there are twenty Chickasaw women in that book, and there's all sorts of different mediums. There's painting, and beading, and photography, and there's a couple of us in there for textiles. Margaret Wheeler is one of them. She's been my artist mentor. I don't even remember what all mediums. There's pottery in that book. I'm honored to be included in that. That's been a work in progress for a few years now, and it's exciting to see it come to fruition. I had to go get all the other women to sign my book. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Have you worked with Margaret then at the ARTesian Galleries?

Shackleford: I met Margaret before she went to the ARTesian Gallery. I've gone 38:00down there and visited her at the gallery, also. She's been a mentor to me in the sense of growing as an artist and being involved in art shows. I have to say that she hasn't been a mentor in the sense of weaving because she does loom weaving, and it's very different from the techniques that I'm using. Some people will say she was my mentor in that, and it's not true. I have tried to learn her style of weaving, and I've learned that I don't enjoy it as much. She's tried to 39:00learn what I do, and I don't know if she enjoys it or not. I think we both share research with each other because her work is very modern, but she still takes inspiration from our history.

When I find things, I will email them to her or tell her about this book that I've been reading. She said she has a binder. She'll print things off that I send her, and she'll stick them in the binder. Then she's had books that she's shown me. She's like, "You need to read this book." I'll go get it, and I'll read it. I think we admire each other's work very much because I own a few of her pieces and she owns a few of my pieces. I think I have looked up to her in 40:00that she's doing very contemporary things. I'm not sure if this is the right term for it. Some of her pieces are wearable art, but they are very much--. They're not an everyday, wearable thing. They're more like an installation piece that's very different.

I take inspiration from that because I, this next year, want to do some things kind of in that direction. I want to elevate what I'm creating to another level. Then when I started branching out and doing more shows--because for the first year, I only did Chickasaw Nation show. Then the second year, I only did Chickasaw Nation show. When I started adding shows, I would ask her for advice, 41:00or I would--. She's the reason I wanted to go to Santa Fe. (Laughs) When I got into Santa Fe, of course, I had to ask her things like where to stay, and what the schedule was like, and how to set up a booth. She's been a wonderful, wonderful source for me and someone to really look up to.

Little Thunder: Talk a little bit, if you will, about that original, I guess it was the Dynamic Women fashion show because that was the first time, I think, you had a piece in there that was done as a fashion kind of thing.

Shackleford: Yes, Chickasaw Nation does Dynamic Women's Conference every year, and I think it's in March or April every year. In the conference, they have 42:00speakers and all sorts of different things, breakout sessions, but part of something that goes along with the conference is Art of the Chickasaw Woman exhibition or exhibit. I'm not sure what the right use of that word is. Anyways, it's only Chickasaw women artists, and our work is on display for about a month. I've done that for several years. Then a couple of years ago, they added a new element. They only did it the one time, but it was a giant success when we did it. It was a fashion show during the conference.

There were just a handful of us that showed our work in the fashion show. Margaret Wheeler was one; I was one; Maya Stewart was one. I believe there was 43:00one other lady, and I cannot remember who it is. Maya Stewart does handbags, also. Margaret had clothing items. I had a finger-woven shawl; I had that twine skirt; and then I had some handbags. Then Maya Stewart had handbags in there. It was gorgeous, seeing the models wearing our pieces and showing off our pieces, and I loved every minute of it. I actually had to be a model in it, also. I modeled one of Margaret's dresses, and that was a gorgeous dress.

Little Thunder: Was that challenging?

Shackleford: Yes. (Laughter) I'm not experienced with modeling, (Laughs) but it 44:00was still a lot of fun. I would like to do--I would like for some more opportunities like that to come along. I don't think I'm at the level yet for Indian Market fashion show, but I think in the future sometime I would like to get there. I say that right now, and I can hear Ryan Lee Smith's voice in my head, saying, "Why not," (Laughter) so maybe it'll happen sooner than I think.

Little Thunder: Talking about your purses, you mentioned that that first competition piece was a finger-woven purse, the front panel. At this most recent Cherokee Art Market show, I saw a lot of combining of the finger weaving and the leather, which I think is a great look. How did you come about--.

Shackleford: I did that to create pieces that were more affordable. (Laughs) That's the other thing that I rely on my husband for. I want to make some pieces, and the amount of time that goes into creating some of the pieces I want to make, it ends up being a very expensive piece. My husband has encouraged me to have a range of prices so I can reach more customers. Those handbags, I started creating so I could have some lower price points. To me, they're still expensive, but then I think, "Oh, well, you spend several hundred dollars on a Coach. It's okay. You can buy one of my bags." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Right, for something really, truly unique. (Laughs)

Shackleford: Yes. Those are a lot of fun, and I'm still experimenting with that. 46:00This one back here is a different shape with the weaving, so I have some more ideas for that.

Little Thunder: You're buying the purse first, and then--okay.

Shackleford: I'm sewing it all.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. Wow!

Shackleford: I weave the pieces, and then I sew the whole bag. I do not have formal training in sewing. I had to teach myself, but it's been a fun experience. I can do one--. Once I have all my weaving and all my pieces cut out, I can sew one up in a couple hours. The biggest time-consuming thing is the weaving.

Little Thunder: Right, and are you--. You're doing a whole--and the weaving is one organic piece in a particular shape, or are you splitting up a piece of weaving?

Shackleford: After I did the one handbag that had the full front panel that was 47:00woven, I decided it was a lot less time-consuming. I could save a lot more time if I wove strips and then combined the strips, so some of my bags have one strip across them. This one back here, that's actually three or four strips that are combined together, but it looks really good. I have some more ideas for things like that.

Little Thunder: You also had a finger-woven guitar strap. Of course, beaded guitar straps have been around awhile, but how did you get that idea?

Shackleford: My husband. (Laughs) He said, "You need to make some guitar straps," so I have made a few of them now.

Little Thunder: Have they sold for you?

Shackleford: I've made four. One I did a trade with another artist. Two I gave 48:00away to some guitar players because I wanted to make sure that they were practical. Jeff Carpenter is in Injunuity, and he has one. Will Willis is in Nashoba Losa, and he has one. I don't know how much Jeff has used his, but I know Will has not taken his off his guitar since he got it. He's been using it for a year. I wanted them to give me feedback and tell me, "Yes, this is good," or "No, it's not sturdy enough." So far, my feedback's been good. Then my last one just sold a couple weeks ago to another guitar player, so I'm going to have to make some more. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Was that at the Art Market?

Shackleford: No, it sold--Chickasaw Nation took a bunch of Chickasaw art to 49:00Mississippi, and they had a one-day festival in Mississippi. I sent several pieces out there, and that one sold out there.

Little Thunder: Great. How much of your work is currently commissions?

Shackleford: Not much. I don't like to take commissions for a couple different reasons. One is the restraints on my time, and making competition pieces for shows is priority for me. I'm afraid if I start taking on commissions, then that will get put to the back burner, and I won't accomplish the things that I want to accomplish. Having a full-time job and having kids, it's hard to have time. Another reason I don't like to take commissions is because I have all these 50:00ideas of things I want to create. If it's something that is not one of my ideas right now, then I'm not as interested in completing it. Sometimes I do take commissions, and it's usually for people that I know on a personal level. If it's someone that I know, and they come to me and they ask me to make them a belt, then usually I will say yes because I know them. There have been times where I've wanted to and I've been like, "I just don't have time. If you want to wait six months, I can do it for you, but if you want it right now, you're going to have to go ask someone else." Sometimes they'll wait, and sometimes they'll ask someone else.

Little Thunder: What do you think makes your finger weaving stand out maybe from others?

Shackleford: I think that I am the best that I have ever seen at finger weaving. (Laughs) Really, I have been doing it--. I'm thirty years old now. I was twelve when I started, so I've been doing it eighteen years. I don't think you have to be old to be a master at a craft, and that's the technique I've definitely mastered. My tension is perfect. The materials that I use are expensive, quality, luxurious materials. I will work with acrylic yarns when people want me to, and normally, Stomp dancers, that's what they want. When I'm creating things for art shows or for exhibitions or pieces that I want to create, I'm using 52:00mostly buffalo hair yarn. I'm experimenting with some other types of yarn that would be similar to traditional fibers. I think when I look at some other finger weavers' work, I'm always critical.

Their tension wasn't even, or they weren't weaving tight enough, or--. In finger weaving, it's called warp-faced weaving. You're supposed to only see your warp threads and not see that weft thread, so if I see someone's weft thread, then I'm like, "Oh, they could've done that better." I think that I'm the best at it, 53:00(Laughter) but you don't see many finger weavers at the shows that I go to. There's a couple that are coming up, and I am excited to see that. It's, I think, a healthy competition because it makes me have to keep growing and keep getting better and better. There's one lady that does finger weaving, but she does the oblique style. She's very good. We compete in a couple of shows. I think it's kind of unfair to compare two different styles, but she's pretty good at her thing, too. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: This is a good segue into maybe looking at your loom and talking a little bit more about your processes and techniques. -- We're looking at what 54:00you use for your finger weaving here.

Shackleford: This is a stand that I use. It's very simple. When you do finger weaving, you don't have a loom. This is not a loom. This is simply an anchor. I will wrap my yarn around this dowel rod, and then I'll do all the weaving out here by hand. This is great because I can use clamps and attach it to a table, or I can take it with me in the car, and I'll put my legs on the base here.

Little Thunder: To get that tension.

Shackleford: Yes, so it's very portable. This is what I use most often now, and I have used for a few years now. Before this, I did a number of different things. I would use the back of a chair. I liked using a step ladder because I 55:00could prop my feet up on the steps while I was working. You can do finger weaving anywhere.

Little Thunder: That makes sense. (Laughter) It's that suspension. You need your--.

Shackleford: Yes, you need something you can anchor your yarn to, and then you're doing all the weaving yourself. The other two techniques that I use are different. With a sprang, I use a frame, and it's also not a loom. It's like, think a picture frame, only the one I have is six feet tall and three feet wide.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Shackleford: Then with twining--.

Little Thunder: Do you want to explain sprang a little bit more, though, before we move on? Like, are you twisting the threads?

Shackleford: Okay, how about I do all three techniques? The type of finger 56:00weaving I do is warp-face weaving. You have all your warp threads. It's different from traditional weaving because in traditional weaving, your warp threads tend to be stationary, and you have a weft that goes back and forth. With finger weaving, your warp is not stationary. Your warp threads become your weft thread. They take turns changing with each other. That's how you can get the various patterns that you get with finger weaving is manipulating those changes. Sprang, your yarn is fixed at both ends. You only have warp threads, and you do not have a weft thread at all. What you're doing is twisting your threads around each other. Your end product, if you do it loosely, it's going to resemble a knotless net, or it's going to look kind of like the netting on a hammock.

You can manipulate it, also. You can do it loosely and have that loose netting look. You can do it tight, and it's almost a solid piece of fabric. You can purposely weave holes into it to create designs and patterns. There's an absolutely gorgeous shirt that's in, I think it's in the University of Arizona right now. They call it "Tonto's Shirt." It's a couple thousand years old. It's cotton, and it looks like lacework. It just takes your breath away; it's gorgeous. Then the third technique that I use is twining. Twining, you have warp threads, but then you have two weft threads. Your weft threads, you twist in 58:00between each of your warp threads, and you can manipulate that a lot to do a lot of different things with it, also.

Little Thunder: In terms of some of the other--you mentioned buffalo hair. You use that and some other traditional types of fiber. Do they come in colors?

Shackleford: My buffalo hair, I--okay, let me start over. Several years ago, I went to Cahokia [Illinois] to learn from this woman on how to process my own fibers and spin my own yarn. I learned how to spin it with a drop spindle because my idea was I wanted to harvest, and process, and dye, and spin, and create my whole own piece, start to finish, the way my ancestors would have done it. I went. I learned a lot, and I also learned that I don't enjoy that part of 59:00creating textiles as much as I enjoy the weaving. (Laughter) My buffalo hair yarn I order from a couple in Texas. They have the Buffalo Wool Company, and they have several products available. A lot of their products are not 100 percent bison. Some of it's bison-merino, or I think they have one that's bison and silk.

I usually do special orders with them to get 100 percent bison and get the weight that I want because they do a lot of lace weights and I want more like a sport weight or a DK [double knitting] weight. Then also dyes, I'll tell them the colors that I'm wanting, and they'll dye it for me. Some of the other things that I'm experimenting with right now is linen. I found this linen yarn. I've 60:00created one belt with it, and I'm currently twining a bag with it. I chose that because my ancestors used stinging nettle, and they're both bast fibers. When you spin nettle, it spins just like flax does. We use flax to make linen, so it was my cheating way of getting something like my ancestors. (Laughter) I also have found some nettle. I've purchased it, and I've got some plans for what I want to create with that. What other things do I like to use? Those are my main ones. The buffalo is my main, main one, but I'm open to trying some new things.

Little Thunder: As you're doing your research, what are some of your sources for research?

Shackleford: I have used a lot of historical texts. I've gone back and read several things from early Contact time period. Read The De Soto Chronicles, which they describe some textiles. That was the very first thing that was written down about Chickasaws, but then also several things from the 1700s. I also study archeological finds, research. Penelope Drooker has several things she's written, where she's gone and studied textiles at various archeological sites. Mary Spanos has some things that she's written, also, about archeological 62:00artifacts. I do a lot of reading those types of things, also. Then one of the things that I try to do, and it annoys my husband--. Like Cahokia, I told him that was going to be a vacation for us, but then I went and spent all day learning things instead of having a vacation. (Laughter) I've done that other times, too. I've gone to some other sites and tried to look at pieces that they have.

Little Thunder: Plus, those firsthand encounters are really important for textiles.

Shackleford: Yes, and then there are some things that--. The threads that they were spinning were so fine, and what they were weaving with those pieces, I can't imagine how much time they would take because the threads that I like to 63:00work with are a little bit thicker than what my ancestors were using. Part of that is I do that because it saves time. (Laughter) When I made my large shawl, I used a very chunky yarn because I knew it would take so much longer if I tried to use a worsted-weight yarn. Yeah, seeing those old, old pieces makes me have a greater appreciation for what my ancestors were doing. Eventually I might try, but not right now.

Little Thunder: From the time you get an idea, how do you go about realizing it? Do you do any sketches?

Shackleford: I have a little notebook, and I would say my drawing skills are not very good. (Laughs) Sometimes I'll try to sketch things out, but I don't show anyone because it looks like a little kid drew it. It helps me remember whatever that idea was. Sometimes I'll have my husband draw things out for me. I'll describe what I'm wanting, and he's better at drawing than I am. I have this new idea that I want to do, and I have him draw up what I'm wanting to do with it. Some things I'll start making immediately. Some things I'll keep in my mind, and I'll come back to them later when I can. Some things I don't draw at all.

I have this picture in my head of what I want it to be when I'm finished, and I know how to accomplish that just because I know my technique so well. But let me say this. That sprang cape that won the award, that was one piece that I had this idea in my head, and then it did not come out. Finished product was not what I was picturing, and I was so disappointed. I hated it. I wouldn't show it to anyone for a year. I held onto it. I thought about it, and I tried to rework it a little bit, but I didn't do very much to it. Then I showed it the next year because I felt like I was running out of pieces, and everyone loved it. (Laughs) It's funny how things like that work out sometimes.

Little Thunder: You ended up--

Shackleford: Winning awards.

Little Thunder: --liking it more and winning. (Laughs)

Shackleford: When it started winning awards, I liked it. (Laughter) That piece, too, I think seeing it on a person, (because I had a couple models so I could do a photoshoot with some of my pieces) when I got to see it on a living person, I think, is when I fell in love with it.

Little Thunder: That's different. What is your creative routine? Do you work after you come home from work or on weekends? How do you get your--.

Shackleford: This year has been different because I have a baby. Before, when my son was little, I would wait until he went to bed, and I would weave in the evenings after he went to bed. Then when he got older, I could do more because he could go play or entertain himself or watch TV or whatever. I could work 67:00after work in the evenings whenever I wanted to or on the weekends. Last year, when I was pregnant, not last year because Zora's almost a year old now, almost two years ago when I was pregnant, I did a lot of if I wasn't at work, I was at home, weaving. I was doing that because I knew when she came along, my time would be limited again.

I tried to create a lot of pieces. Now that she's here, I have only successfully completed one piece since she's been born. She doesn't go to bed early yet, but it's getting better. I have another piece in the works. I have to create a piece 68:00for that traveling exhibit, and I need to create a few competition pieces for next year. I'm going to have to work it out with my husband and try to make some time where he can take the baby and I can do some work. It's difficult again, and I keep telling myself it'll get better. She will get older, and I can do more. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: It will. It will. You've had this really remarkable--as you say, you've been doing this eighteen years, but your art career has been much shorter. Even so, looking back from this point, what do you think has been a major fork-in-the-road moment for you?

Shackleford: I think the first couple of years, I only did local shows. I 69:00started out only doing Chickasaw shows. Then I branched out, but I only did local shows. I think the fork in the road was getting into Indian Market and going to Santa Fe. Now I still have goals. I want to do--I want to go to the Heard. I want to go to Eiteljorg, I want to go to the Autry. There's so many shows I want to do still, and I want to do some more exhibits. I still think, "When I retire--." Getting to Santa Fe, I think that's the fork in the road because I think it was the point where it's like, "You don't have to wait until you retire. You can do these things now." I've just got to find a good balance, to balance family and work and art. I'm lucky where I'm at in work. They're 70:00supportive of me and my art, also, so I very much appreciate that. My dream would [be] to be able to do art full-time, but that's something I'm not sure I can do until I retire. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Is there anything else we've forgotten to talk about that you want to add?

Shackleford: I'm sure I will think of several things after we're finished. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, I look forward to seeing your stuff that you have in progress for future shows.

Shackleford: I think I do want to say that right now, where my passion lies is in these ancient, prehistoric techniques. I want to do more, also, with teaching those things because I don't want them to die out. I try to use my art and create new, modern things with it because I want to inspire others to learn these techniques, and show them that they can make their own things. Even though I'm creating new, modern things that you haven't seen before, with these techniques, I still very much take my inspiration from those old, old pieces that my ancestors were creating. I think that's what I try to always keep in the 72:00forefront of my mind in everything that I'm doing. That's my personal mission, is to keep those things alive and create inspiration for others with what I'm doing.

Little Thunder: Thank you very much for your time today, Tyra.

Shackleford: Thanks! I'm so glad you came down.

------- End of interview -------