Oral history interview with C. Maxx Stevens

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Monday, September 26, 2016. I'm interviewing C. Maxx Stevens for the Oklahoma Native Artists project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at OSU's Museum [of Art] on the postal plaza where, C. Maxx, you're one of several women artists whose work is being featured in the exhibit From the Belly of Our Being: Art By and About Native Creation. You're Seminole-Creek. You're best known for your sculpture and installation artwork, for which you've received multiple honors and awards, and you currently teach at the University of Colorado. I look forward to learning more about your life and your work. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Stevens: I was born in Wewoka, Oklahoma, and then I was raised in--. In the summers, we would always come back to Oklahoma, but during the school year, most of the time I spent it in Wichita.

Little Thunder: What did your mom and dad do for a living?

Stevens: My dad worked at the Boeing Airport Company. My mom, basically for the first probably ten or fifteen years of my life, she was a house mom.

Little Thunder: That's a big job. How about siblings, brothers and sisters?

Stevens: There's nine of us.

Little Thunder: Where are you at in the sequence?

Stevens: Number three. There's seven girls and two boys.

Little Thunder: Wow! Oh, they were really outnumbered, weren't they? (Laughter) What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Stevens: My dad's mom had already died, and my mom's mom died when I was probably around eight or so. I just have vague memories of her.

Little Thunder: How about your relationship with the language and with Seminole-Creek culture growing up?

Stevens: My dad made sure that we understood our culture. He was always telling us what we should be doing, what we shouldn't be doing. As far as the language, because I had polio, it affected my vocal cords. He didn't think I should learn it because I was barely learning English at the time, but I kind of wished I did. I know some of it, and I grew up knowing some of the language, but since I don't live down here, it was very hard to keep it.

Little Thunder: Were your siblings encouraged to speak it a little more at home?

Stevens: Not really. Because they spoke it, we picked up on it. My younger sisters, we grew up in two halves: the older ones that were raised in Wichita, and then the ones that were born in Wichita and raised in Oklahoma. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Because there was a space of years between.

Stevens: Yeah, it was a big gap. Anyway, they understand it pretty well.

Little Thunder: Lots of opportunities. There are several Native artists who grew up in that intertribal community that formed around the aircraft industry. How did the intertribal presence there impact you growing up?

Stevens: I grew up in an area called Plainview in Wichita. There was a lot of Native people in that area, but there was also black people and Mexicans and 4:00white people. What I would say about that area is that we were all the same income, so it was like we all grew up in the same kind of environment. With the Native community there, we would have a tarp and powwows, our dances and stuff, so I learned different tribals' ways of dancing. My dad would always take us down to Oklahoma for our dances, which was good. There was a nice balance there, but because of that, it was a very strong influence with other Native cultures. We all hung out together.

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of seeing art?

Stevens: My mom beads, and my dad, he used to do metalwork and leatherwork. My 5:00uncle Johnny did basket weaving. It was always around. I don't know when the first time.

Little Thunder: Right, immersed in it. What are your earliest memories of making art?

Stevens: Oh, in grade school, making crazy things. I always remember that was my focus then, too. Never thought about anything else.

Little Thunder: Did any of your teachers stand out for you?

Stevens: Not really, except for Dr. West at Haskell [Indian Junior College].

Little Thunder: At Haskell, okay. We'll get to that pretty quick. In primary school, there was some kind of art offerings?

Stevens: Yes.

Little Thunder: How about middle school and high school?

Stevens: Yeah, I always took an art class in middle school. Junior high is what we called it then. In high school, I was always in an art class, too. (Laughter) It always was part of my education.

Little Thunder: When did you end up going to Haskell?

Stevens: I went to Haskell not right directly after high school. I graduated in '69, so went there in the ʼ70s, early ʼ70s.

Little Thunder: Dick West was there.

Stevens: Yes, we used to call him Doc. He was a really great man. He always encouraged us and showed us his work. He would always tell us that the most important thing is not to be a generic Indian artist. Know your own history and 7:00be true. That always stuck with me.

Little Thunder: Now, were you focused on painting at that point, or were you working in three-dimensional?

Stevens: They didn't have hardly any sculpture classes at Haskell at that time, so Dr. West was the painter teacher. He knew my focus wasn't painting, so he got me a studio on campus so I could do whatever I wanted.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful! Had you experimented with sculpture a bit in high school, or clay, or the three-dimensional stuff in high school?

Stevens: Yeah, yeah. Basically, I developed a lot of different tool methods in high school, like carving and assembling basic things. Then in WSU, I was in sculpture classes a lot and ceramics. That's when I started really thinking 8:00about who I am and self-identity. I was doing things that my teachers said, "I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing it." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: "That's interesting work."(Laughter) To go back to Haskell quickly because you went there before Wichita State University, right--

Stevens: Yes.

Little Thunder: --what kinds of materials did you have access to in your studio? That's a pretty important--.

Little Thunder: We could do anything, basically. Since I'm always walking around, we would walk around all the time on the campus. I would pick up sticks and stuff, thinking about our culture because you're really enmeshed in the culture there, and how do we represent ourselves. I was slowly developing my own language of art, but he was always encouraging. I never really questioned it 9:00because he made us have a confidence in our work.

Little Thunder: When you went to Wichita State University then, because you spent two years at Haskell, got an associate's degree, (is that right)--

Stevens: Yes.

Little Thunder: --you had a portfolio of pictures that you submitted?

Stevens: No, I just applied for school then. I think things were a little bit less rigid back then where you could apply for a program and they took you. Tuition was, like, three hundred and fifty dollars a year at that time, so things were a little bit more flexible. You could take music; you can do anything at university. I did mostly--I was going for my BFA [bachelor of fine arts] there, so I took a lot of ceramics classes. I was starting to build these little, I wouldn't call them dioramas, but they were kind of like moments of my 10:00thoughts in life. That's when I started connecting a little bit strongly, but at the same time, I was learning how to arc, weld, woodwork, and all sorts of stuff. Basically, I always thought of undergraduate school out of a university as a ground for building my foundation.

Little Thunder: Those were--you would draw upon all of those. I was going to ask if there were any teachers at WSU that made a great impression on you?

Stevens: Oh, yeah, yeah. I always related to the sculpture teacher and also the ceramic teacher. Rick St. John was the ceramic instructor the whole time I was there. The sculpture department kept switching around, but each one of them 11:00would encourage me to do my work. It was nice. Back then, women never got As in sculpture. (Laughs) Later on, they would go, "You got an A in my class," and I'd go, "No."(Laughter) It was just unheard of.

Little Thunder: Why do you think that was?

Stevens: There was hardly any women in sculpture. It was always that male- dominance atmosphere. --you had to be tough. They always thought of women in sculpture as making woman art and stuff. I just did what I did, and they were fine with what I did. I used it as a way of growing. They would always laugh because I was a welder. I knew how to weld. Whenever a new graduate student 12:00would come in, a male, and he always goes, "Let me show you how to do that." I always go, "Okay." I'd watch him. He goes, "Okay, now you try," and I go--. (Laughter) They always thought it was funny because I always had to do that with the new people.

Little Thunder: Shamed him out. (Laughs) You were already assembling things. You were creating your own personal symbology and vocabulary of art. What happened after Wichita State?

Stevens: After I graduated, because I was working on the kilns, I would weld the kilns together and stuff. Since they needed me to do these things, they said, "Just take a class and keep your studio." That way, I could help them or do 13:00things there. It was good because even though I was taking that class, I was able to keep working. Then I got a studio right after that, too. Then I started working more on these wooden structures. They were visual stories, and so it was all about me and different things. I thought that was really interesting because the big thing was get a studio.

Little Thunder: Right, that's what everybody strives for.

Stevens: Yeah, so it was two of us getting a studio.

Little Thunder: Was it a male sculptor that you shared the studio with?

Stevens: Yes.

Little Thunder: You'd been thinking of yourself as an artist for how long?

Stevens: Forever.

Little Thunder: From the time you were little.

Stevens: Yeah, it's a long time. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What do you consider was a--. You were working in your studio, doing a lot of things that have to do with identity, like you said. What was a breakthrough, either invitation to show for you or--.

Stevens: I think the big breakthrough was going to grad school, and I went to University of Indiana in Bloomington. The sculpture teacher was a real metal sculptor. He didn't really pay much attention to me because being one woman out of seven in that class, and then the other class, one woman out of that number. I was still that one woman in each level of the classes. He basically worked more with the guys than with the females and the women. It was always like we'd bunch up together and talk about our work and stuff. The guys all hung out with 15:00us, and we all hung out together and talked and stuff. We were always in each other's studios, looking at each other's work and talking, and it was great. I felt like that was a sense of freedom for me because I was in my own little space and my little world.

Little Thunder: How did you end up picking Indiana State University?

Stevens: This is silly. All the guys in the sculpture classes were putting on this chalkboard their names and the list of schools they were applying for for grad school, and they were going to apply for five each. I was watching them do that, and I go, "I'm going to put my name up there!" They go, "You're going to apply for grad school?" I go, "Yeah." I put my name up there, and then I put in the schools I was going to apply to. I got in all five. A few of them wouldn't 16:00give me money to go to school, so that knocked them out. OU was wanting me to come there, and Indiana. The other one was too low, so I said, "Okay." They started bidding on me.

I go, "Indiana just offered me this." They go, "We'll call you back in a little bit." In the end, I knew I was going to go to Indiana because I'd been in Oklahoma and I wanted to go somewhere different. I thought, "Okay, I'll go to Indiana." I don't know. I'm still friends with my former graduate students. We Facebook each other all the time and know what each other's doing. I think that 17:00going to Indiana, because it was such a rigorous program, that we all were very dedicated to the arts. Most of them are still in the arts. We felt like that must be an indication of their program.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Can you talk a little bit about the cultural change because it is a culture shock.

Stevens: Oh, it was a big cultural change. Undergraduate wasn't too bad because I always hung out with the Native groups, but in Indiana I was pretty much the only one. I was in my own little socket, my little place. I didn't really worry about it or think about it. I did what I wanted and developed my processes, and the way I was going to handle material, and how I was going to handle my stories. I would do things like the Three Graces and stuff based on my family. 18:00My materials were very raw, how I work. There was always--. My instructor was really funny because we had these big critiques where everyone on campus come to them. You had to stand by your work and talk about thirty minutes on your process, what you're doing, what the piece is, and then it was open for slam, (Laughs) which was okay because you have to do that. It made us all pretty tough, I think, and more committed to what we wanted to do because you really stood by your work. I think that was really helpful because you're going along a path, and then all of a sudden, you're making these things, getting in shows and 19:00stuff. You're like, "Okay." It was a nice breath of air, to push yourself to that degree.

Little Thunder: Did you get to travel back East a little bit from Indiana?

Stevens: I went to Chicago mostly from Indiana because it's not that far. I really liked Chicago. It was really nice to go there and hang out.

Little Thunder: Did you take in some of the museums when you were there?

Stevens: Oh, yeah, that was the first time I ever saw Louise Bourgeois, her work. I was like, "Wow, look at her." I always like her work now.

Little Thunder: That's what I was wondering. Who were some artists that you 20:00admired at the college or graduate level?

Stevens: Oh, [Alberto] Giacometti, yes. I always liked Henry Moore, how he was free with--. Even though it was very massive, but at the same time, it was very flowing almost like--. I always thought of it as landscape. I also liked a lot of the early Kiowa Five painters. I loved the way people were able to create with that beautiful imagination and colors because I'm not a real colorful person. I knew my work was a little bit less colorful. It was more about the material. I'd just kind of go, "Well, that's okay." It's good to see everyone's 21:00work and see what they did, how they do that, and what were they thinking about.

Little Thunder: You've won a lot of prestigious fellowships and residencies. Can you talk a little bit about--start maybe with Eiteljorg [Fellowship]?

Stevens: The Eiteljorg one was a great experience.

Little Thunder: Was it the first big--. Okay, go ahead and tell us about Eiteljorg.

Stevens: It's being able to go there with people that you work with. Like, Marie [Watt] was there, and [Harry] Fonseca and [James] Lavadour. All of us were there, and we talked to each other and hung out with each other. It was really great.

Little Thunder: You got to spend, was it six months or three months?

Stevens: One week. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: One week, okay, but very intense.

Stevens: You did the pieces. They'd come into your studio, and you'd talk to them about which one you want to put in the show. It was interesting because they would come in and go, "Yeah, just bring it all." (Laughter) It was, like, two major pieces. One was Gatherers: Seven Sisters. Those were the baskets I made. The baskets were similar to those, yeah, the upside down one. I would make these baskets based on each one of my sisters, so each one had a different story, a different way of making it, different textures and materials. Then when 23:00doing that, they were all in the air, hanging. It was really nice to see how--you always think of rooms being still, but when you have something floating, you can start seeing how they move very gradually. I really liked it.

Little Thunder: And response to the air currents.

Stevens: Yeah, so that was fun. Then they took also The Three Graces, which they purchased.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Was that your first museum sale for a permanent collection?

Stevens: Maybe it was. I don't really remember these things.

Little Thunder: Did your sisters get to look at the installation?

Stevens: Actually, whenever I go places, I take, generally, one of my sisters with me. My sister Lou is here with me, which is nice. In New York, when I had 24:00my New York show, every time I went, I took one or two of them with me.

Little Thunder: Different ones.

Stevens: Yeah, then on the installation time, I took two of them because I felt it was important for them to be involved in it.

Little Thunder: Great other energy.

Stevens: Yes, plus my work's about my family a lot, so I figured they're just as much a part of this as I am. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How about the Joan Mitchell Fellowship?

Stevens: That was when--I can't even remember where I was. I think I was at RISD [Rhode Island School of Design] when I got that, teaching at RISD, and I was nominated for it. I sent my slides in and everything, and I got it, which was really nice because then you're allowed to invite someone or nominate someone. 25:00It become a really nice event because you could invite people or nominate people that you watched and you liked. I really liked Duane Slick's work, so I nominated him.

Little Thunder: That's kind of like helping up-and-coming--. Is that the purpose of it, the up-and-coming artists?

Stevens: Yeah. I also had received an Andrea Frank award for sculpture. I always loved papermaking, so I bought a beater. I figured I'd have to wait until I retire because I can't carry it around with me, (Laughs) but it's there.

Little Thunder: What's wonderful about them, too, is--. I think what's hard about the type of work that you do, it's not commercial in the conventional sense of you're going to go out and sell the pieces that you produce to 26:00Native-art collectors, necessarily, so those are so important to allow you to continue working.

Stevens: I like working with time-based materials because, like with this piece, there's no way to ever put it back together like this once we take it off. I made a maquette for it. Then I had this different flow with it, but because the screen was small in the maquette, it really was more--. It would hold those curves. When I did this, I also put stamping on it because I wanted to have this wind movement on it and see how that works with the shadows and the overlapping. 27:00I felt like once we started working with it, it developed its own personality. I'm not one to go, "That's not working!" I figure, "Okay, it's going to do what it does," because that's what material does, which was great.

Little Thunder: Did you know, when you went on for your--. I guess because you got a teaching component with your graduate education, had you decided, "I would also like to teach this"? How did you approach the teaching part?

Stevens: The teaching wasn't great because it fell in my lap. I taught a little class in undergraduate because my teacher told me, he goes--. I'm very quiet usually, and he told me, "You need to get over your shyness. You need to teach 28:00class." They had the university within a university, which was like a free university, kind of like the hippie time, and so I taught a ceramic class in that. It was fun. Also, he would assign me to do demonstrations for different classes and stuff to get me talking more. That was Rick's way of getting me out of my shell and teaching. After that, when I went to graduate school, because I already did that, they automatically shot me into a class to teach, so that was really good. After it, I thought, "Okay, I'm going to take some time off." I was going to be a visiting artist at WSU for the year, which was my undergraduate school.

Little Thunder: Right, you were going back.

Stevens: Yeah, they wanted to show people that you can go somewhere after that 29:00and do things. I was back and enjoying it and having my own space again and working. Then I decided to move to Lawrence, Kansas, and then Chicago started looking for me because Frances Whitehead, who was at Indiana University, remembered my work. She remembered I did a lot of figurative work then. The figurative department, the teacher went on sabbatical, and they needed someone right then. They asked me to come up and fill his place, so went up there. He never came back, so I ended up staying there for three years.

Little Thunder: Now is this University of--. What university was it in Chicago?

Stevens: Institute of Chicago Arts.

Little Thunder: [School of the Art Institute of Chicago], okay, yeah, what a great job to land.

Stevens: I always get great jobs. (Laughter) I don't know how I got lucky like that. Then I left Chicago. I went to the Institute of American Indian Arts. I went there, and I was there for five years in charge of the foundation and sculpture area. It was really a lot of fun working with Native kids again and them getting exposed to things I think about and talk about. I think there was this new generation of artists going into the Institute, too, at the time. Things were starting to change in the art field with a lot of those students.

Little Thunder: What years were those? What years are we talking about?

Stevens: Let's see. Early ʼ90s, I think.

Little Thunder: For the Institute?

Stevens: Then 1996 when Clinton was president, he didn't understand what this 31:00school was, so he zeroed it out.

Little Thunder: The big budget, yeah.

Stevens: Yes, so we went forty faculty members to nine. Because I was in charge of foundation and sculpture, they stopped the sculpture area, and they stopped the foundation area, so I didn't have a job. Duane Slick was working at RISD. When he found out about that, he was talking to them, and they go, "See if she wants to work up here." He told me, "Apply for this visiting lecturer position," so I did.

Little Thunder: At [University of Colorado]?

Stevens: No, RISD.

Little Thunder: At RISD, which is?

Stevens: Rhode Island School of Design.

Little Thunder: Thank you.

Stevens: I went there and taught--

Little Thunder: Oh, my gosh, another top school!

Stevens: --for three years. (Laughter) It was crazy, but I did that. Then they 32:00were going to hire someone, but I got hired at the White Mountain Academy of the Arts, which is in Elliot Lake, Ontario. It was going to be a half Aboriginal and half Western art school, with traditional Native art program and stuff. They asked me to be the associate dean and teach sculpture there. I went there, and that was great. I always wanted to live in Canada, so that was my big time in Canada. I really loved being in Canada. I'm a cold weather person, so it was--. Their culture up there is all around that weather being--. It's just amazing. Nothing stops them. They just go. I thought that endurance was really impressive.

Little Thunder: I'm wondering in what ways some of this work, maybe at the Institute and then in Canada, did they change your approach to your art at all, or how did they--.

Stevens: Not really. It was my continuous moving, I think, because I move a lot, not anymore but at that time. Every place gives you certain memories and certain things to bounce off of, and what was going on in my family, my mom and dad, and tribally. The world's big and how it affects you, which is good, because if you're an introvert, then you can think about things a lot without anyone 34:00bothering you. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Installations can be really big and overtly public, or they can feel really personal and intimate. I've seen pictures of your work, except for this installation that I'm getting to see in person, but it seems like you work both scales. Has that always been the case?

Stevens: Yeah, I think I like big. I don't know. When I had to make things small, like drawing to make it small, it's like--. I've been doing a lot more printmaking lately, and so I think the last couple of years I've been focusing on printmaking because I didn't really want work big for a while. After the Smithsonian, I felt like that was huge and I needed to regurgitate or go on a 35:00different map way, so I started working with prints and small things. Melanie Yazzie, she's the printmaker at CU-Boulder, and so she started putting me in different print exchanges and shows. She got me more developing and working as a printmaker. Again, I don't like making things in a studio with other people, so I taught myself how to make prints, like editions without a press and with non-toxic inks. I even got a drying rack now. It's been fun because she lets me make the prints in a way I would make a print and not like a printmaker print.

Little Thunder: Let's talk about the Smithsonian exhibition. They made a really nice brochure for you, too, which is online. Was that House of Memory?

Stevens: House of Memory, yes.

Little Thunder: Can you talk about getting ready for that show?

Stevens: They called me up, and at first they wanted a retrospective of my work. I told them that would be hard because my work is time-based. About the only piece that they could probably get in the museum would be The Three Graces. I go, "Otherwise, I'll make the whole show." They said, "Okay." They came out and talked to me, and they said, "Okay, we'll come back in a year and see what you come up with." I had a year to produce pretty much the whole show. They came 37:00back and said, "Yeah, let's do this. We love that." It was great. I felt so lucky because people acknowledge my work and I'm allowed to have this--. They have to trust me on these things because I can't show them this before.

Little Thunder: Right, you're not doing a sketch of anything.

Stevens: No. Even with the Smithsonian, I put things up and showed them what I was going to do. They look at it, and they go, "Okay, we can work with that." (Laughter) When I got there, I had my two sisters with me and then their crew, and we put the show together really quick. It was a lot of tying because there was the green sticks. It was really interesting because I really liked the way 38:00things developed. With this, we took one day. Then watching the students work with me, I like having interchange with people and going, "What do you think about this?" The students were really helpful because I'd go, "It needs more flow," so this one girl gets on a ladder and starts working on it and stuff. I like that because it puts them in charge and some kind of relationship with the piece.

Little Thunder: They're contributing a little bit to the piece.

Stevens: Yeah, I felt like the director, (Laughter) even at the Smithsonian because they were all making these things, tying them up for me. They go, "How's this look?" I go, "Okay, let's go for that."

Little Thunder: One of my favorite pieces in that was Dad's House. It's the 39:00man's suitcoat covered with feathers, and you've got those horsehair balls, which are resonant for Native culture. You can get horsehair because people use it in different ways on dance clothes and stuff. Did you get your horsehair that way, or did you get it some other way? I was curious about the horsehair balls.

Stevens: When I first started using horsehair, I started using friends' horses' hair, but they were always so matted and dirty. The thing with horsehair, you can still feel that power of a horse through the hair. When I would make these horsehair braids, I would have to stop and shake it out and keep braiding. Their hair is really wild, and it's got this energy in it. I love using horsehair because I use it like a lineage, to represent lineage, with the braid or the 40:00Native culture and people. I put it on the ground, plus that connection with the animal world.

Little Thunder: And medicine.

Stevens: I get my horsehair now from China because they have those really long horsehairs. I find that they're clean, and they're wrapped very beautifully. Sometimes with the cultural landscape, how they bundle them, I put them right in the middle of the books because I thought it was so beautiful.

Little Thunder: They pay attention to that, careful with that. Besides national exhibits, have you exhibited overseas at all?

Stevens: No.

Little Thunder: I saw another piece that was very different, I thought, from--because it looked like cast paper, all of it. It was the Last Supper 41:00piece. Was that all cast paper?

Stevens: No, that was cast wax.

Little Thunder: Cast wax, okay. Can you talk a little bit about doing that? That was very three-dimensional and monochromatic, I think. It was all the same--

Stevens: All white, yeah--

Little Thunder: --yeah, all white.

Stevens: --a little black. That was based on a--. I did a piece before that one. It was called Sugar Heaven, and that one had thirty-six chairs, eight rows, because one out of eight Native people are supposed to contract diabetes. I think that whole number system is totally wrong because it's more than the one. In my family, it's an epidemic, but they make it sound like--. Anyway, I think it was six rows with eight chairs, and one out of every eighth chair, I put a 42:00veil on it, a white curtain on it, to represent that's the one that person that died. What I did, I casted a heart with pressed sugar in it, and then I burned it. It was all on these metal plates because my relationship with my tribe and how we feed each other. There was, like, the camp houses and how we would put metal plates out for them. Plus, it was the perfect thing to burn on because it was already metal. It worked out really well.

Little Thunder: Where was that piece shown?

Stevens: It was shown at the Albuquerque Museum. Then Lawrence Arts Center asked me to show it there, too, so I did. Then from that I went to The Last Supper. A 43:00lot of people don't--it was kind of crazy because of the word "Last Supper." What I was meaning is that it could be your last supper, but I was playing off of that, too, yeah. It was three tables put together to make a long table with the white curtains on there again like the veils, and all the food was cast in wax. It had this real time element to it. Then I put this crushed glass on top to represent the sugar. Then on the bottom, I had all the feet amputations and canes underneath. I put salt on all of that.

Then I had in the background a sound system where I had a heartbeat, and then it went flatline. On the walls, I had posters up that showed what's in food like 44:00white bread and donuts and stuff. Then at the entry, I had where the people would come in, and they would look at my other posters. Then they would look at the survey I had for them. After they saw the show, they could write something down. It was very good because a lot of people are very aware and how they're trying to take care of themselves because their parents all died from diabetes, family members. They could relate to that whole thing.

Little Thunder: Sounds like a really powerful piece. Before we talk a little bit more about your process and techniques, I'd like to talk about your installation for this exhibit. Let's talk a little about the current exhibit piece. What were 45:00your thoughts when Heather Ahtone called you and told you about the show?

Stevens: She called me up and asked me if I would like to participate in this show about creation and women. Being of the Wind Clan, I was thinking about how they talk about the creation of the animals and the clan system. I based it all on that where there's this wind flowing around, and it cracks open the shell, and then the animals came out. Then the two red chairs because of the clan system, how it follows lineage, it comes from your matriarchal society. I put my dad's mom in there because I think she's just as important because she raised my 46:00dad. Then my grandmother [Wisey] Goat over there. I put my way of working with patchwork because I'm more digital, so I made these digitals on vellum or something. Then I cut them, and I glued them together on cloth. Then I cut them again, and then I cut this other cloth. When you look at the Seminole strips, when you dance and you have your Seminole dress on, usually the first band on the bottom is your clan.

I thought it'd be nice to connect the two grandmothers with all the different patchworks and different meanings of the patchwork. One's the Milky Way; then there's alligator teeth; the wind's in there, too. It was important to me to not 47:00just make this thing but also represent the other parts of our tribe. I don't know. When I make my baskets or weaving, I have a lot of fun with it. Sometimes I know what I'm going to do, but I like the material to have that voice, too. I was thinking about the wind, so I kept playing with the reeds and the different colors of reeds. The browner ones are the smoke reed, and the pale ones are the reeds that you can buy. I really wanted to have this thing have a lot of energy and not to just stop at the shell but to get your mind still moving with this.

Little Thunder: Is fire represented, too, by the candle?

Stevens: Yeah. I'm this health and safety person, too, always like, "Okay, I've got to protect that little light," (Laughter) because you never know with the air and stuff. I didn't want something getting on it and then burn down the museum. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's true. That's really important, too. (Laughter) C. Maxx, you mentioned that you've been doing, or did, quite a bit of printmaking, started into that after the Smithsonian show. You have your own process where you're not using a press. I read, I think, that you do (I'm not sure I'm pronouncing it right) collagen prints because they're unconventional. Can you explain what that is and talk about it?

Stevens: I've been working a lot with collaging with prints, but I use collagraphs. In order to make an addition, I have to find a way where I can use my material the way I want to use it but have it consistent. I've used collagraphs a lot. I use stamping a lot, whether it's stencils or rubber stamps. A lot of digital components can be put into the piece, as well. I play with it to get it to a point where I feel like it's still me but people can get it and they can get it in their little exchange, and hopefully they like them. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: They look really interesting. What's a new material or technique 50:00you've been exploring lately?

Stevens: It always depends on each show because everything has a--. I think about each show as a way to put my work into it, and how it works with the theme, or if it has a theme or not. It's always this ongoing journey. With this piece, I really wanted something fluid. At first, I proposed I would make this big reed wind sculpture, but I felt like that was going to be too heavy. I started thinking about other materials that would still have that feeling of wind but transparent. I went with screen, but I wanted a certain kind of screen. 51:00I like the bright aluminum because then the light really reflects off of it pretty well.

Little Thunder: Do you do any sketching at all in conjunction with pieces?

Stevens: Oh, yeah, I write, and then I sketch. It was like when Heather asked me about this, I started writing. From the writing, I develop my ideas. Then from the ideas, I have to start thinking about, "How do I represent them three-dimensionally? What material would work best for that?" That always has some time into it. I like the idea of materials and how they relate to what I want them to do and what I want people to get from them. I think a lot of times because we're visual and artists are visual, when you look at something, your 52:00brain is automatically critiquing and going through that process. When you're looking at an artwork, you're always going, "Okay, this is this, and--." I like that. I like that about art. That's something I teach my students is how to analyze a piece of artwork, and what goes through your mind, and does the work tell you this. Hopefully, I've been able to do that with my work.

Little Thunder: Can you take us through the process of creating an installation piece? What's your process from the time you get this idea?

Stevens: For this one, I made a maquette because I really never worked with screen before, so really wanted to see how it could work. At the same time, most 53:00of the time, I do drawings, and I--. I do a lot of computer drawings because I work with space, and so I think from above. When I'm thinking up above, where things are going to sit, then I go down and start thinking this way. I have to think more three-dimensionally, two-d, because that's how I think, and I develop my spaces like that. They tell me how much space I have, and then we work that out. Like, Cultural Landscape was made specifically for the Smithsonian's little narrow gallery, and so I had it broken up in two parts. One side, you're looking at the urban part, then on the other side you would see the Oklahoma part. The next time it showed, because they didn't really have that space, they asked me if I wanted them to build a wall. I go, "No, just give me a corner. We'll spread 54:00it that way," and so that's what we did. I thought it was very nice that way, as well. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Yes, adapting to that.

Stevens: I like corners, though. There's a lot of energy in corners. You can really work--. It's almost like it's already three-dimensional.

Little Thunder: That's a great point. Looking back over your career so far, what do you consider a really pivotal moment?

Stevens: SITE Santa Fe because I got an award there, regional award, and they had a show there. They gave me a twenty-five--it was like yard space. When we 55:00had it, it was painted red for the blood. I built two walls so that when you walked in on one side, you had to walk down this hall to enter. The same on the opposite end; you walk in and you enter. You couldn't cross because everything was going through the middle, so you were really confronted with what I was trying to get across. That was the time when the government was really starting to cut too many things, like Indian health and education. They were cutting IAIA. A lot of the clinics and hospitals were starting to have problems with it. I started thinking about how we've gone through so much, and it stills go on. I was trying to relate history with current events. I was using that space in 56:00between as kind of like how the Spaniards and the English, British, they did different ways for body count. Some would cut off the nose, some would cut off the ears, and some would cut off their hands and throw them in a pile.

I put in the middle a whole bunch of cast ears, and then I had some spirit balls in there. Then I had the red sticks going from one end to the other because the Red Sticks is a warrior society. On one side, I had these history books from high school and how we only got a couple of pages. I would cast them in concrete with those pages in it so then that way when you walk up to it you would see these things. On each one, I had muslin with different texts on it. Then on the 57:00other side, because of the Relocation Act they had in the ʼ50s, I casted all these suitcases. When I would bring them in to arrange them, I tossed the books and let them break wherever they were. I did that with the suitcases, too. It was funny because the curator was watching me. He goes, "I've never seen anyone do that." (Laughter)

It was about the idea of archaeology, and I couldn't put perfect things out. Plus, the whole thing was an environment; it was like a landscape. It was fluid thought, from one to another. Then that confrontation with people when they'd cross. People would walk up, and they'll be looking at it, and they look at each other. I like interchanging with people and how they look at my work because a 58:00lot of times, because I don't like openings, I don't go to the openings unless I have to. I really don't--I get too shy. I don't really talk to people that well. I have to babble. (Laughter) They always ask you crazy questions and stuff. It always throws me off, so it's gotten to a point where it makes me totally nervous now.

Little Thunder: That sounds like such a powerful piece. I want to make sure I know. Was it at IAIA that it was--.

Stevens: It was at SITE Santa Fe in Santa Fe.

Little Thunder: It was at SITE, okay, and the regional award was--.

Stevens: They had someone come in who was offering some money to give out to 59:00some local artists. Jaune Quick-to-See got one, and I got one. I forget the others, but they picked certain ones and gave it to us.

Little Thunder: Wow. I was thinking, too, about how important it is to document work like that, and yet you can never come close to the experience of it. Do you take your own photographs?

Stevens: Basically, yeah, but for this presentation tonight, I left my laptop at home. My sister Sandy gave me the pictures she took, and I'm working with those and going off the Internet for medium things. I figured it's what I'm going to talk about that's important, and the work is based on things I'm talking about. 60:00It's not a chronological presentation. It's about my creative process, my thoughts, and why I do these things, along with my works. With my work, I can talk about some of them because this one's going to be in the piece. I'm going to present that, so when they come, they can get an idea.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points, do you think, of your career so far?

Stevens: I don't think about that. I know everybody goes through it, and I go through it, but because I'm always thinking and trying to move and do things--. There's time when I work in my studio and experiment. I really love that time because I just play and I work on things, enjoy myself. Then if I have to be in 61:00a show, not have to be but asked to be in, then I think about what I've been doing. That moves me along. I think those times of peace and quiet--. A lot of people think you should show and sell all the time, but I like those breaks where I can rehash things and rediscover things.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we forgot to talk about that you'd like to add?

Stevens: No. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I know you have a workshop to do, other things to do today, so thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me.

Stevens: Thank you.

------- End of interview -------