Oral history interview with Vanessa Paukeigope Jennings

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, April 14, 2016, and I'm interviewing Kiowa-Apache-Gila River-Pima artist Vanessa Paukeigope Morgan at the Anadarko Public Library in Anadarko, Oklahoma--

V. Jennings: Jennings.

Little Thunder: Jennings. (Laughs) Of course. Thank you. We are--sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History [Research] Program at Oklahoma State University. Vanessa, you have historic connections to art. Your grandfather was Stephen Mopope.

V. Jennings: Yes.

Little Thunder: And you've been in this business a long time. You've received a National Heritage Fellowship Award. You've won top awards at Santa Fe Indian Market and Red Earth for your beadwork, but you're especially known for your cradleboards, which are featured in various museum collections and there's one here at the library. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

V. Jennings: I was born in Tempe, Arizona. I'm a product of Relocation. My mother was a nurse and she traded a part of her education for working for Indian Health [Services]. I was born there in Arizona, and when I was just a few days old my grandmother came alone on a train and came to Arizona and brought me home. So this is my only home.

Little Thunder: So your grandma raised you over here in Anadarko area?

V. Jennings: Yes.

Little Thunder: You told us a little bit about your mom. Anything you want to share about your dad?

V. Jennings: My dad, he was this big, strong, handsome man. He rodeoed and he 2:00got hurt after one of the rodeos and my mother was his nurse, one of his nurses. They met and they got married and I was born out there. Like I said, I was just a few days old and my grandmother came and got me and brought me back to Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: It wasn't easy to take care of a little infant in those times, either.

V. Jennings: No, not during that time. Because you had to--it isn't like the formula today. Everything's ready-made and easy to do because you had to mix it, mix up the formula. The diapers, they didn't have the kind of disposable diapers that they have now. It was really--babies were hard work.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) And you were supposed to be a grandma's girl.

V. Jennings: Well, my mother was out there without really a support system. She was working, so it was really hard trying to find a babysitter for me. Her hours were--she worked the three-to-midnight or the midnight-to-eight o'clock shift. It was really difficult getting up--getting someone to watch me. It was just easier for my grandmother to come and get me. If my grandmother had not came and brought me home, I would've been disconnected. I wouldn't have had a connection to my grandfather, my grandmother, with her beadworking, and with his painting, 4:00and their singing, their dancing, taking part. I would've missed out on all that.

Little Thunder: Right. You've talked a little bit already now about your exposure to Kiowa language and culture growing up. Anything you want to add to that? They gave you a good, strong base.

V. Jennings: Oh, it did. I would like to think that I could pass that along to my children and my grandchildren. Although, my grandchildren, it's kind of a tossup. (Laughter) We have this wonderful little grandson, but he comes walking through the house, and one time he's blonde, another time he's got blue hair. I 5:00think last night it was kind of a rust. It's just what he called "artistic expression, Grandma."

Little Thunder: Right.

V. Jennings: I would prefer that he expressed himself by braids and pierced ears, you know?

Little Thunder: Different generation. You explained that your grandma, of course, was doing beadwork. You were exposed to her bead art early. Any other family members that were an influence?

V. Jennings: No, it was just my grandparents. They--with my grandfather, what he was doing was recording a part of Kiowa culture that doesn't exist anymore. At 6:00that time there was a really strong influence because of his uncles. Silver Horn and Ontigh--they were at the beginning of ledger art. They were recording after the free days onto the reservation. Then my grandfather, he started his artwork at the end of--I guess it's the reservation period. He recorded through World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, until he passed away in 1974. He was 7:00prolific and he had this really strong work ethic. He would get up. Right after breakfast, he would start painting. Then he would take a break about nine o'clock, drink coffee. After his fifteen-minute break, then he'd start right back in and start working again. He would break for lunch and then he would work until after ten o'clock at night. He was always, always--it seemed like everything was a creative process for him.

Little Thunder: It was really his calling. He really took it seriously. Yeah. 8:00When did you make your first art of any kind?

V. Jennings: (Laughs) He fixed a--he found my missal. It was actually my mother's missal and I was drawing flowers. I had this big, humongous print. I was just now learning how to write my name, Anyway, he has it. He's got it. He's my organizer. He organizes everything and it takes me no time to pull everything apart and throw it out of order.

Little Thunder: Now this is your husband, Carl, that found your missal.

V. Jennings: Oh, yes. He's very patient and he'll go back in and reorganize. I 9:00didn't know--when I first started beadworking, I was beading for my children. I've never thought of myself as an artist. I've always identified myself as a traditional woman. I didn't know that you were supposed to have a resume. I didn't know you were supposed to keep copies of your work. Carl is the one who organized all of that into a resume for me, and collected all of my articles. He takes care of me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. So when did you start beading?

V. Jennings: I was just a little girl. One of the first assignments is you pick 10:00Grandma's beads up. Nothing's ever wasted. If the beads drop on the floor, you pick them up. You put them on a string. Nothing was wasted. So you have this one big jar and there's all of these beads. They're all different sizes and colors. You just--you didn't waste it. That was your first assignment. My grandmother couldn't get down and pick stuff off the floor, so that was your assignment.

Little Thunder: How about school? What was school like for you? Did you get any encouragement for any painting or drawing?

V. Jennings: No, no. In fact, I got in trouble with my mother. I used to wear--I went to school with my hair braided. I wore leggings. I didn't realize that just being a traditional woman--I mean it was already--the seed was already planted. Here again, Carl has these newspaper photographs. I'm a high school student and 12:00you can see me with my long braids, and my leggings, and I'm walking across out to the parking lot to get in--My grandfather came and picked me up. He drove me to school and picked me up. I was comfortable with who I was, with my dark skin, my painted scalp, my braids. I had these wonderful, wonderful grandparents. My grandmother wore a cloth dress, and concho belt, and braids. I had this visual 13:00idea of what was expected of a traditional woman. To me, the prettiest women were like in the agency days. You could see these beautiful old ladies with their braided hair and their black string shawls. There was this one old Comanche lady. Her name was May Weryackwe. I thought she was as pretty as my grandmother. She had leggings on and she was walking to the agency. I remember how pretty I thought she was. Just so confident, and beautiful, and perfectly at ease with being a Comanche woman. The same way with my grandmother. That 14:00identity, that confidence, that was something that was really important to me. These beautiful, strong women.

Little Thunder: That took a lot of courage, too, I think, at your high school graduation because you were going against the current.

V. Jennings: Oh yes.

Little Thunder: All the pressures were--

V. Jennings: It's human nature for you to be afraid of someone who looks different. I didn't realize that just by being who I was, apparently, I scared some people. (Laughter) But my own grandmother, she had this wonderful 15:00confidence. In the face of death (she was dying from cancer) and she never told anyone. She just faced it on her own terms.

Little Thunder: What did you do after high school? I guess we should say quickly what school system you were in.

V. Jennings: I never had anything more than a high school education. My children, I was wanting them to be dressed as if my grandmother were right there beside me, even though I lost her in 1970. I wanted my babies, I wanted them--I 16:00was too poor to go and buy beadwork. So I was sitting down and I was making my own beadwork for them. That's how I got started. Then people started coming. "Who made this?" "Oh, you made this? Can you make me a pair?" I just got pulled in to it.

C. Jennings: She wants to know what high school you went to?V. Jennings: Oh, I went to school at Lawton High in Lawton [Oklahoma].

Little Thunder: Okay, because I was wondering if you were here in Anadarko.

V. Jennings: No, no, no, at Lawton High. It was a very large student body. Out of several hundred in our class, I think there were just three or four of us 17:00that were Indian. I mean, just these two little brown faces in this sea of white. You just gravitated towards each other.

Little Thunder: Right.

C. Jennings: Just a minute--

Little Thunder: This is Carl.

C. Jennings: Vanessa's mother worked in Tempe when she was born. That's when she went to live with her grandmother. After Tempe, I think she went to South Dakota to work as a nurse. From there she came to Talihina [Oklahoma] and worked at the Tuberculosis Center there. Then, she got a job at the Indian Hospital in Lawton. That's when Vanessa moved to Lawton to be with her mother and father.

Little Thunder: Okay. That's how you ended up in--

V. Jennings: So it was circuitous, a circuitous route.

Little Thunder: --in the Lawton High School. Okay, I don't know if this is after 18:00high school, but I read that you were a cultural advisor for the post office? Can you tell us that story?

V. Jennings: (Laughs) No, the postmaster...

Little Thunder: The postmaster?

V. Jennings: --is my friend. Whenever they have groups of people who come in to look at the paintings, he or one of the employees, like Ron, they'll call me and they'll say, "There's a group of people that are coming in here. Do you think you could come and talk about your grandfather's paintings?" "Yes." I love--I like people. I like visiting and I love talking about his artwork. I like explaining what a wonderful, colorful, exciting man Steve Mopope was. He was 19:00friendly. My grandmother would get mad at him because he never met a stranger. He was always visiting. I think that's what made his artwork so exciting to me. I just remember this wonderful storyteller. (Laughs) He was so much fun to be around. He was so much fun to listen to his stories. The kind of life that he and my grandmother had, they were--my grandmother ran the farm for him and my 20:00grandfather focused on his artwork at the Jacobson house. She didn't want him to be distracted by trying to take care of things at home. That's what got him in trouble because most people, they looked at it as if he were being lazy.

They didn't look at artwork as a career option. Somehow, it wasn't a job the way that most people--I mean, they cannot see how art, they can't see it as a viable 21:00occupation. They just think it's frivolous and it isn't. Like my grandfather, he recorded so much of our culture that no longer exists. If he and the other members of the Kiowa Five, if they had not recorded, we wouldn't have an Indian culture. Do you realize they were the beginning of what has become a multibillion dollar art market? Here are these six young people, who when they 22:00first were students at St. Patrick's, at the Indian mission, the nuns and Susie Peters, they were able to make an alliance, a friendship, with Dr. Jacobson's wife who was French. They were able to secure a position. Dr. Jacobson gets all the credit, but it was actually Mrs. Jacobson who helped to secure the positions for Jack Hokeah, Steve Mopope, Spencer Asah, James Auchiah, and Ms. Smoky. All 23:00of that came about because of Susie Peters and the nuns here at St. Patrick's Indian mission.

Little Thunder: And they got a chance to travel a bit too, globally.

V. Jennings: Oh yes. When my grandfather's uncles, Ahtone and Silver Horn and Jim Waldo--Jim Waldo was a Carlisle student. Tennyson Berry, who was Stephen Mopope's father-in-law, they sat on the business committee with Quanah Parker. They set the contracts for the MKT, the Missouri-Kansas-Texas, MKT Railroad. 24:00They used that whole train route as an avenue for sales. They would set up in Parsons, Kansas. They would go to Chicago. They would go all the way to Denton and on down into Waco and different places. They would take their dance clothes, they would give dance presentations and they would sell their artwork.

Little Thunder: So they had that in mind that they were going to help the artists promote their culture?

V. Jennings: Yes, and it was--my grandfather really enjoyed it. Here they were 25:00doing things that were illegal, you know? (Laughter) Because Susie Peters, she was supposed to be teaching them how to can and how to sew. How to become mainstream American citizens. Here she's setting up classes on how to teach all of these different Indians, beadwork techniques. There again, that must have been an exciting time for her. She was able to go with her protégés and they would go to Gallup [New Mexico], they'd go to Santa Fe. She'd take her little 26:00charges and they'd go all over and give dance presentations and then they would sell their paintings.

Little Thunder: So you started out beading for your children.

V. Jennings: Yes, that's how I got my start.

Little Thunder: Right, and what was--did you enter any competitions at any point or did it just start with commissions?

V. Jennings: It got started with commissions. Then a friend of mine, we would chit-chat, and they said, "There's this wonderful art show here in Santa Fe. You should apply." "Ah, no, no, no, no." Anyway, but finally they talked me into it. When I first started going to Indian market, my booth fee was seventy-five dollars.

Little Thunder: Did you actually go to Indian Market before you did any other shows? Was that one of your first shows?

V. Jennings: Yes.

Little Thunder: Wow, the toughest show to get in.

V. Jennings: Start at the top. (Laughter)

C. Jennings: They didn't give her a booth. She had to take her tipi and set it up on the Plaza.

Little Thunder: Okay. You were paying for just a place for seventy-five dollars.

V. Jennings: Oh my gosh, and I dragged my babies out there. You haven't lived until you've trucked a whole vanload of tipi poles on those little narrow little Santa Fe streets. (Laughter) I remember I got turned around and I got stuck.

C. Jennings: At the top of what's that art road that goes up to the hill?

V. Jennings: What is the name of that?

Little Thunder: Oh, not Galisteo [Street] is it?

V. Jennings: No, where all of the--

Little Thunder: Canyon Road?

V. Jennings: Canyon Road. I got stuck at the very end and I remember--

Little Thunder: It's so narrow.

V. Jennings: --I just busted out crying. I was tired and my babies were hungry and they were exhausted. I got stuck up there and I could not get turned around. This nice man (I have no idea who he was) he jumped in the truck and backed me up, and turned me around, and got me pointed down, so I was able to make it to the Plaza. But I thought, oh my gosh." Now, hindsight, "Boy, that was a dumb idea." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's a great story.

V. Jennings: Who would've thought? I was dragging my babies and we were setting 29:00up on the Plaza. My goodness, I mean, this was at the very beginning. There was not, they didn't have that many policemen on the Plaza at night. We were fending off all kinds of people, trying to climb under the tipi, come through the front door. It was crazy. I thought, "Man, no, no, no, no."

Little Thunder: Now what kinds of--did you have beaded medallions, or moccasins? What kinds of things were you selling? Had you already tried--V. Jennings: This is the thing with my grandmother. You didn't do just one thing. Traditional 30:00women, you did cradles, you did leggings, you did dresses. That's what I carried out there to Santa Fe. I was making baby moccasins. I was making women's leggings. I was making dresses. Now, today, people, they specialize. You go to somebody when they just make medallions. Somebody else just does keychains, somebody else does just belt buckles. They're specialized. It wasn't that way in our home. You had to learn how to do everything. That meant learning how to tan 31:00hides. That meant--a good woman was able to do everything. It isn't like it is now where it's specialized.

Little Thunder: Do you remember when you entered your first competition at Santa Fe?

V. Jennings: Out there at Santa Fe. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Do you remember approximately what year and what you entered?

V. Jennings: Gosh, Gabe was probably about ten years old.

C. Jennings: Nineteen eighty to '81.

Little Thunder: Around 1981. Did you enter a dress or what did you enter?

V. Jennings: I had a painted buffalo robe, I did a buckskin dress, and I did a 32:00pair of green leggings. Traditional old-style work, which is something I still love doing. I don't like--I do not like the mirrors and--

C. Jennings: Rhinestones.

V. Jennings: I prefer old-style work.

Little Thunder: What category did you win in? With what piece? Maybe you won a couple.

V. Jennings: Yes. I think about 2014, I did a beaded horse mask and a beaded 33:00martingale. I did a cradleboard one year and our little grandson was little. We went and our little grandson--old people, they really appreciate good manners. This little boy, I had this cradle and I had made it out of these larger beads, and I think I called it Rez Baby, the name of the cradle.

C. Jennings: It was yellow and white stripes on one side. And green and white stripes on the other side.

V. Jennings: Our little grandson went and started down the line--

C. Jennings: No, we saw Emil at the end of the line, so we told Gabe to go shake hands with Emil Her Many Horses. He went and started shaking hands with everybody in the line, one by one.

V. Jennings: (Laughter) Until he finally got to Emil. And I know Emil was wondering, "Who is this little Indian boy?"

Little Thunder: I think it was your horse mask, if I remember, you told me a cute story about it sold for a good price. And as the Indian grapevine was going, the price just kept getting bigger and bigger from booth to booth. "You know Vanessa sold her horse mask? (Laughter) But can you remind us, because I can't remember, if you made it for your daughter-in-law?

V. Jennings: For our daughter-in-law. I sold it. My children, (when my children 35:00were small), I used to tell them, "If Mama has a chance to sell it, I'll sell it. I will make you something else to replace it."

C. Jennings: And since then we've made that same daughter-in-law, two.

Little Thunder: She got the second one, is that right?

V. Jennings: Oh yes--

C. Jennings: And the third one.

V. Jennings: Our son, he wanted to use the horse mask, and she said, "Oh no, no," she said. Dad made it for me. I don't think I should loan it." He said, "Those are my folks."

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Exactly. How about your beaded cradleboards? I'm not 36:00sure how many people were actually doing those when you started. Did you start out with bigger ones or did you start out miniatures?

V. Jennings: I started out with big ones.

Little Thunder: That's what I thought.

V. Jennings: There again, I've always joked we're like two little old dinosaurs. We're the ones you're going to come look for at Indian Market. There isn't another place for me to sell my work. I don't belong anywhere else. All of the other art shows are emulating Indian Market, but they don't have the support. They don't have the quality of volunteers. They don't have the--

C. Jennings: Customers.

V. Jennings: --the customers who have the money to be able to--I mean, truly, 37:00they look at this work as an investment. It isn't just a quick, thrown together something and then it's going to be worn out, or it's going to end up in a pawn shop. No, it's a thing--it is substance.

Little Thunder: How did you and Carl meet?

V. Jennings: We were on the opposite side of the dance arena.

C. Jennings: For all our lives. I was from Texas and I'd go down to Dallas and watch the Blackfeet dance. She would come with the Blackfeet and dance, but I never met her. All those years we were just--she lives up here on the Washita River. I'm from a town that's at the end of the Washita River, so we went all our lives without meeting each other. Then I came up to Cache, Oklahoma, and went to a dance and she was there. I was just sitting in the crowd and there was a woman, Kiowa woman, who walked by and said, "Those are interesting leggings." The next year, I asked somebody who she was. Then that woman told somebody and that man told her that I was interested. We got to talking after that. I went to dinner with them after the dance and come to find out, this man that we were having dinner with, him and his wife are from back east somewhere. He told her he didn't like me. I was just--I don't know. I don't know--but it was "not a good idea." But it came to be, eventually.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) In spite of--

V. Jennings: Be sure and edit that out. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: It's such a good story. Can you talk a little bit about the fellowship that you got? It was ultimately from the National Endowment for the 38:00Arts, I guess. They give this National Heritage fellowship.

V. Jennings: Yes.

C. Jennings: First of all, tell her about the woman from OU [University of Oklahoma] that came to the Apaches and was looking for you.

V. Jennings: Emma Hansen.

C. Jennings: That's a good place to start that.

V. Jennings: Emma Hansen, Emma Hansen. They were working on this Plains Apache exhibit. My grandpa, Frankie Redbone, send her to my house. He told her, he said, "Now you tell her that I sent you." In other words, I couldn't say no. 39:00That was my very first, I guess, public commission. I did a little dress and a little leggings and I made it for my daughter. I remember I was talking with Bobby Jake and I told him, "You know what, Bobby? My work is so much better now," I said. "Why don't you let me trade you, let me give you one of my dresses? You give me that dress back. I don't want anybody to see how pitiful it looks." He said, "No, someday you might be famous. I want to tell everybody we have her very first commission piece in our museum."

Little Thunder: And what museum did it go to?

V. Jennings: That's at the Apache Tribal Museum here.

C. Jennings: Apache tribe of Oklahoma, the Kiowa/Apaches.

V. Jennings: They used to be called the Kiowa/Apache. They just call themselves the Apache Tribe of Oklahoma now.

Little Thunder: Right.

V. Jennings: They've been affiliated with the Kiowas since the Medicine Lodge Treaty. They've always been known as the Kiowa/Apaches. But they're not like the Mescalero or the San Carlos. They're Plains Apache.

Little Thunder: So you got that commission for a museum and then this 41:00fellowship. How did you find out about it?

V. Jennings: I found out about it through the State Arts Council. The coordinator said, "The people who are selected, generally, they're elders. They're not young people." I was floored when I got it.

Little Thunder: How old were you, approximately?

C. Jennings: It was '89. She was born in '52, so...forties.

V. Jennings: Doc Tate, we were up at Red Earth and he said, "I heard you're a 42:00National Heritage Fellow." I said, "Yes." He said, "Oh." See, we were the only two living Fellows for years. Then Bruce Caesar and after him Fred Tsoodle. We were the only Fellows for quite some time.

C. Jennings: Oklahoma fellows.

V. Jennings: And Georgeann Robinson.

C. Jennings: The basket maker or pottery maker?

V. Jennings: No.

C. Jennings: No? That was somebody from Santa Fe?

Little Thunder: Now did the fellowship, did it allow you to do research with a 43:00cash reward?

V. Jennings: Yes, you can do--

Little Thunder: Okay, so it buys you some time to work on, but you don't necessarily need to work on a major piece. Or is that part of the project?

V. Jennings: No, you can do--what I was doing was research. I was going to--well, it was the Museum of Natural History. They called it the Attic. Scary, scary, scary. Oh, my gosh.

Little Thunder: Was it DC or New York?

V. Jennings: In DC, no, it was in DC. It was--the storage was up--you could go to--what is the name of that? It's on the border of Spanish Harlem and Black 44:00Harlem. Anyway, in New York.

C. Jennings: The Heye Foundation.

V. Jennings: Yes. The Heye Foundation. I had no idea, I am a true country mouse. Oh my gosh, I could not believe the--these people must eat their young to live in New York and to live in Washington DC. I have to admit, though, going into the Attic, it isn't like it is now. They had stuff stacked, stacked, stacked, 45:00one on top of the other. Beautiful, magnificent Kiowa cradleboards, the rawhide, the covers were being crushed. That won't happen now. Everything is state-of-the-art care.

Little Thunder: Were there any surprises for you in terms of the research? What you did discover?

V. Jennings: Yes, it was crazy. I didn't know what I was looking at. It was a horse mask, but it had wooden slats and then it had buffalo horn. I've never 46:00seen that again. I mean, it was so unusual. I knew I saw a Kiowa cradleboard and it was on brain tanned hide. I remember there were figures, there were motifs that were beaded on this cover, but it wasn't a fully beaded-- It was just like these motifs and then these figures. It was really unusual. I guess it must've been about seven years ago, we started going through--he had organized 47:00everything. I knew I saw that. I knew I saw that cradle. He had it and there it was. He organizes everything into folders. So maybe these are like figures. Maybe this has some kind of a floral beaded motif. Everything is organized and labeled. It's identified, the collection.

Little Thunder: That's a great resource, research resource, that you have that.

C. Jennings: Tell them what the guard told you at the Attic.

V. Jennings: (Laughs) He said, "Aren't you afraid?" "Of what?" He said, "I don't like going back there." "Why?" He said, "Because I can hear people." He said somebody called him by name. Anyway, he said, "Where are you?" They said, "Over here." He said, "Where?" "Over here." He said, "You mean over here?" And somebody went and slapped him, but there was nobody there. It was a ghost. 49:00Anyway, he said, "Man, I don't like that. Those people, they scare me." Most of them are probably my relatives. (Laughter) But I never go into the collection without paint. I mean that is, no, no, no, no. I don't want anything to follow me home. No. But I was really surprised. First off, I was telling this man, 50:00"You're not supposed to follow. When common sense tells you that there isn't a flesh and blood human being back there--'come here.' You're not supposed to go and say, 'Where are you?'" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Goodness. You got a commission also from the International Folk Museum, I think, in Santa Fe.

V. Jennings: Yes.

Little Thunder: Could you talk about that, please?

V. Jennings: Yes, that was, oh my goodness, that was a long time ago. Also, my son, Seth, we were both there. He was giving cultural demonstrations. When I went out there, I met this lady. Sometimes when you meet someone, they never 51:00tell you how important they are? They have that much confidence that they don't brag on themselves. They invited me to come and I could do research and help them to identify the items that I thought were Kiowa and explain what went into the piece. Then I made a little girl's dress. I was making little boy's clothes, 52:00too, about that same time. I must've had nephews, or nieces, or somebody that I was doing stuff and it fit neatly into this demonstration.

C. Jennings: Who was it that talked to you and didn't tell you who she was?

V. Jennings: Oh, she's retired now. She was at the museum out there, at the--

C. Jennings: You don't remember her name?

V. Jennings: No.

Little Thunder: If you think of it, we can put it in brackets later inside the interview.

V. Jennings: Okay. I'm doing good to remember my name.

Little Thunder: You mentioned how important it was as a traditional woman to be 53:00able to do a range, whole range of things. I'm just wondering, what is your favorite thing to work on, to bead?

V. Jennings: Cradles. I like doing little girl leggings and moccasins. In fact, I've got a pair of little girl's leggings cut out this morning and two pairs of little girl moccasins. We have this cute little granddaughters and then a friend of ours, this Osage friend, she has a little granddaughter. The little girls, 54:00both of our granddaughters are about the same age, same size, so it's fun working on things for them.

Little Thunder: Yes. Going back to your cradleboards, you've had several featured in books on Kiowa cradleboards or Southern Plains cradleboards. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of cradleboards for the Kiowa people?

V. Jennings: A man--our world, it's very much male-dominated. I mean it's a warrior society. A man can stand up and he can talk about his war deeds, but on 55:00that same level, that same kind of respect is given to a woman who can talk about cradleboards because a cradleboard could be given as a gift. It solidifies family, friendship-- It could be at our Blacklegs Warrior Ceremonial. This is my warrior artist. In order to honor him, I've given away cradleboards. It's 56:00because he never asked me for anything, but he always does for me. On that same level of respect, I can turn around and I can give a cradleboard. Not only the family I'm giving it to, it shows how much respect I have for you, but also that cradleboard, it's to honor this wonderful man.

Little Thunder: Have you done any judging of beadwork?

V. Jennings: (Laughs) No, no, I haven't. I don't know that I would be any good 57:00at judging.

Little Thunder: Nonetheless, you've been in it long enough to--there have been some changes. It seems like it's commanding more of a price that reflects how much time you put into things. A little bit closer than it used to be. What other changes have you noticed in beadwork circles?

V. Jennings: I know that I'm getting slower. (Laughter) It seems like we have to think more about how to best use our time. I have congestive heart failure. It 58:00seems like I have some big health issues now. It's really difficult to do things. It's difficult to sit. It's difficult to--it seems like you need to plan more, you need to think more about the best use of your time, your talent. Then you have to be brave enough to say, "You know what? I can't do this."

Little Thunder: Do you have family members that help with hide tanning or are 59:00you actually buying your hides now?

V. Jennings: No, he set me up with an account. I use such big amounts that unless it's something that we're going to keep for ourselves, it's better to go ahead and purchase it. Like a cradleboard, you can't get paid for the amount of time that you have.

C. Jennings: We paid for twelve hides, brain tanned hides, a couple years ago. We got six of them and we--

V. Jennings: Got cheated.

C. Jennings: --haven't seen the rest of them. Now I doubt we ever will. This guy's from Montana or somewhere. I didn't know him. But you can't be--

Little Thunder: Yeah you--trust.

C. Jennings: Can I say something about the changes in beadwork?

Little Thunder: Sure. This is Carl again.

C. Jennings: People don't take the time that it takes to do things well, anymore. People that are beading moccasins bead with the bigger beads because they cover more space and fewer designs. The quality's not there that it was forty, fifty, sixty years ago. That's hard to take because you know the difference if you were beading forty, fifty, sixty years ago. You don't want to 61:00judge those things because you don't want to stifle somebody's creativity. But they just don't know what that quality should look like. It's difficult to see that. Very few bead workers take the time that it takes to do a quality thing. There's a few. There are a few that really know how to do that, but they're getting fewer and far between. There's one family from up North and all of those girls have learned to bead from their grandma and their Mama. She learned from her folks and they do excellent wet work, but I don't see anybody down here, not 62:00one person that really does the work that--

V. Jennings: The family that he's speaking of is Joyce Growing Thunder.

Little Thunder: That's what I was thinking. Let's talk about your process and your techniques a little bit. You have used a lot of small beads and such on medallions and some of your miniature cradleboards. Do you use antique beads very much, or were you ever into that?

V. Jennings: No, we have some.

C. Jennings: There's a few on this little cradle.

V. Jennings: We still have some of my grandmother's. But those are things that you want to hang on to.

C. Jennings: And there's never enough to do a big project. There's just small 63:00elements on this cradle that have old beads in it.

Little Thunder: Has your use of color or your designs changed at all over the years?

V. Jennings: I think it has. Oh gosh, don't even look at my stuff from long ago. It's just awful.

Little Thunder: I think artists are always hard on themselves that way.

V. Jennings: No, no, no. We went to Altus and we were looking at some old photographs and we were doing some things, and oh my gosh, there was one of my 64:00early dresses, and an early pair of leggings. Oh gosh, I just wanted to crawl under a rock and hide. It was just--

C. Jennings: The curator says, "We have a Kiowa dress, but it was made by somebody--I think her name was Vanessa. But her last name is Morgan, so it's probably not the same lady." I said, "Oh yes, it is." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What about the relationship between beauty and usability? Is that important to you? That things that you've made--

V. Jennings: Yes, yes. In Kiowa culture, there's a very structured class system. 65:00The more highly decorated--you can tell by looking at the person, how they're dressed, where they fit in within the Kiowa society. Now see, that's such an old idea, too. That has just pretty much gone by the wayside because now you see things that are happening now that shouldn't be happening, but it's just because of the breakdown in the culture.

C. Jennings: The word for cradleboard illustrates that, in a sideways way, but the word is aupaugh tope, but the word, aupangh, is a useful tool. Something that's used and tope means it's tied up. The inference is that this is a useful tool, but it doesn't become a useful tool until something is tied up in it. The beadwork on it is obvious, but it's not mentioned.

Little Thunder: Thank you. That's a good insight to have. What's your creative process, Vanessa, from the time you get an idea for a particular thing you want to make?

C. Jennings: First thing she does is we talk about it. "What do you think about 67:00this idea? What do you think about putting this on it? What about this instead?" Or "I saw something like that." That takes a couple months. Then she starts to work on it. All the time we're talking about this color or that color. "Let's do it this way" or "I saw something fun in a museum. Let's try to do something like that."

Little Thunder: Do you do any preparatory sketching of your designs? Do you ever sketch out your designs?

V. Jennings: No, it seems like each of them, they have a life force of their own. I'm sure you can sketch it out, but in the end it's going to decide how it wants to live.

Little Thunder: What is your work routine?

V. Jennings: I go from lazy to "Hurry up. If you're hungry, you go fix you a bologna sandwich, but don't bother me." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you work on several things simultaneously? Do you switch off projects?

V. Jennings: Yes, we were joking about the stuff in our house. We've got lots of moccasins that are just one side-- (Laughs) I said, "This is going to be fun when I pass away. Our girl's going to be looking at that. "What was she doing with this?"

C. Jennings: She started outlining this cradle a couple years ago. Then it got 69:00changed. Some of that beadwork came off and got changed. We sat down and about two months ago, she started working on it and finished it.

Little Thunder: Sometimes things need to sit. You need to let them sit and think about them. Looking back on your career so far, what's been one of the high points? Looking back on your time in the Native art markets?

V. Jennings: Just how we don't take ourselves too seriously. I think that comes about with confidence.

C. Jennings: That six-foot-five black transvestite in a gold lame mini skirt telling her her shoes are pretty. It was pretty fun.

Little Thunder: Oh wow, that was in Santa Fe, huh?

C. Jennings: No, that was in New York.

Little Thunder: That was in New York, wow.

V. Jennings: Oh my gosh. This--

Little Thunder: You were wearing your moccasins?

V. Jennings: Yes, he put his hand on my head and told me, "Turn around darling. Let me look at you." I felt like an idiot. He [Carl] has gotten the biggest kick out of that.

C. Jennings: There was the bald headed man with the tattoos and the gold toothpick in his nose at the Budweiser booth next to her booth.

Little Thunder: What show was that?

V. Jennings: That was the Indian Summer Festival up in Milwaukee. I told him, "You're not going to believe this. It's a tossup between these men and women who has the tightest, most sprayed on, black leather pants and who has the highest heels. The men or the women." I told him, I said, "You know how you can tell somebody wants to talk to you?" This man, I couldn't--

C. Jennings: They keep following her around.

V. Jennings: I couldn't look at him. He was all tattooed up. He had this thing stuck through here (his nose) and I was telling Carl, "Man, I am really and truly too much of a country mouse to be up here. I'm not going to ever come back 72:00up here anymore."

C. Jennings: I said, "Well, did he tell you?" She said, "I don't know. All I could see was that silver toothpick wiggling around in his nose. I didn't hear a word he said."

Little Thunder: You do run across some characters. (Laughter)

V. Jennings: I know.

Little Thunder: You did the Red Earth show for quite a while, right? Or just for a short period. I can't remember.

V. Jennings: Yes, I was even the Honored One.

Little Thunder: Okay, what year was that?

V. Jennings: Oh gosh.

C. Jennings: Gabe was born so it was, so it was '90.

V. Jennings: Oh yeah, Gabe was little. He was mad because Connie Yellowman was the director and--

C. Jennings: It was 2004, 2005 or 2006.

V. Jennings: Gabe was mad because he didn't want to dance. Then he got out there 73:00and they were trying to steer him off.

C. Jennings: He was dancing in front of us in that big line and he wasn't dressed. But that's okay because he's our grandson. But he's dancing six or eight or ten feet in front of us. The arena director's trying to get this little kid off the dance ground and he didn't know who he was.

Little Thunder: Not knowing he was family.

C. Jennings: Then when he found out they were giving all the Tiny Tots five dollars, then he wanted to dance. And it was over with.

Little Thunder: That's a nice honor, too [Red Earth Honored One]. What's been one of the low points of your career so far?

V. Jennings: The low point?

C. Jennings: You've been taken advantage of.

V. Jennings: I've got quite a few. I've got quite a few, which, all it does is 74:00it makes you appreciate the nice things. Then that makes you pretty philosophical. You say, "You know what? I'm glad you don't know everything bad about me." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Some of your children--will they know how to do a lot of these things? They've always been around it. Are any of them following an art path?

V. Jennings: No. They like wearing it, especially our girl. She loves wearing it. I think that if she, Summer, if she would just sit down and dedicate 75:00herself, I think that she could go a long way. It's more fun to frolic than to really have to work hard.

C. Jennings: Tell her about Summer going to the Smithsonian last year.

V. Jennings: Oh my gosh, she went last year.

C. Jennings: The Kiowa tribe.

V. Jennings: The Kiowa tribe took her and several young Kiowas. They were going up there to look at the old Kiowa things, the collections. Lo and behold, who--I 76:00never thought the girl paid attention. Here she was making some pretty astute observations and explaining "Well, this is why. I seen my mom do this and I've seen them do this and you can tell--" Oh man, I'm proud of her.

C. Jennings: To answer your question, I think once we're gone, all that will come up and she'll be able to do it. I think.

V. Jennings: Sometimes--that's something you should never--you shouldn't just be judgmental because sometimes you just have to be pragmatic and realize maybe it 77:00will take your death for them to realize how important this is.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give to a young Native person who wants to do the art markets, who wants to bead full time?

V. Jennings: I would say, "Don't wait for someone else to tell you that you can do it. You have to be able to tell yourself, 'I can do this.'" The thing that 78:00you should never get tired, though, is you should never get tired of talking.

Little Thunder: That's a big part of it.

V. Jennings: Yes, that's a big part of it. You should never get so discouraged that-- Nobody can stop you, but you. When you say, "I can't do this," I promise you, you won't be able to.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to add or talk about before we take a look at your cradleboards?

V. Jennings: No, actually, I'm kind of tired.

Little Thunder: Okay. All right, we're going to pause and quickly take a look at those. Vanessa, can you tell us a little bit about your beaded cradleboard?

V. Jennings: This is a doll cradle. At one time a little girl, her full-size cradle had small doll cradle that went along with it. Of course, collectors found out how valuable they were so you don't see many of the dolls with the full-size boards because you can make more money by separating it.

Little Thunder: And this was the one that you worked on and then it was around the studio for a while. Okay. How about your hide cradleboard here?

V. Jennings: It's done out of handmade rawhide and this the brain tanned skin that's cut up into the strings. It has sinew that makes the lacing at the bottom.

Little Thunder: Not easy to work with. That's beautiful, too. Thank you so much for your time today.

V. Jennings: Thank you.

------- End of interview -------