Oral history interview with Austin Real Rider

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson Little-Thunder, today is Monday, November 16, 2015, and I'm interview Austin Real Rider for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Austin, you're Pawnee and Sioux, you specialize in ceramic sculpture, much of which is designed as wall hangings. You've won numerous awards and honors at the Heard Museum, [Colorado Indian Market in] Denver, among others, and you were the 2008 Honored One for the Red Earth Indian Arts Festival. I look forward to learning more about you and your work. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Real Rider: I was born in Pawnee. I grew up in Oklahoma City and Pawnee.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Real Rider: My dad worked for Phillips. He ran a pump station is what he did. My 1:00mom was a nurse in Pawnee.

Little Thunder: How about brothers or sisters?

Real Rider: I have three sisters. I had to think about that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Where do you fall in the sequence?

Real Rider: Number two.

Little Thunder: Okay. What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Real Rider: I got to know them for a while. At the time, we lived in Oklahoma City, so I didn't get to see them that much.

Little Thunder: Were you around the Pawnee language very much growing up?

Real Rider: My dad could speak Pawnee fluently and I often asked him to teach me 2:00how, but he always told me--he said, "Who are you going to talk to later on?" It's the truth. There's none of us left anymore. There's a little bit, but I don't think there's anybody that can really talk it fluently.

Little Thunder: What's your first memory of seeing Native art?

Real Rider: I was pretty young, probably fourth grade, I guess. School books.

Little Thunder: How about your first memory of making art?

Real Rider: Probably the second grade, I guess. Did a lot of airplanes.

Little Thunder: Were you drawing them?

Real Rider: Yes.

Little Thunder: Were you doing anything three-dimensional?

Real Rider: No, not until we moved to Pawnee. That was probably the fourth grade. Just go to the creek and start messing with the mud down there.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Good beginning for a ceramics sculptor. Did you have family or extended family who might have been an influence in your interest in art?

Real Rider: On my mom's side, they were all musicians: piano and singing. My oldest sister sang. She was real good. But other than that, I just drew and 4:00taught myself how to paint.

Little Thunder: When you were making things down by the creek, what kinds of things did you like to make out of mud?

Real Rider: Just any kind of animal. Got through, just throw them in the water.

Little Thunder: (Laughter) Oh, you didn't let them dry?

Real Rider: No.

Little Thunder: Did your folks notice your talent and encourage you?

Real Rider: Yes, my mom did. I guess they were pretty good about encouraging us.

Little Thunder: How about at school? Were you exposed to any art at school, in elementary school?

Real Rider: Yeah, we had regular little art classes all the way through to high school.

Little Thunder: Even at Pawnee?

Real Rider: Yeah, that was at Pawnee.

Little Thunder: At Pawnee, do you have any memories of any teachers or moments that were important to you in terms of art?

Real Rider: No, I really can't even remember my art teachers. That's bad.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) But you were doing art?

Real Rider: Oh, yeah.

Little Thunder: All the time?

Real Rider: Yes.

Little Thunder: How early did you know that you wanted to be an artist?

Real Rider: Probably in junior high. But when I went to the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] to go to school, they told me that you couldn't make it as an 6:00artist. So I went on to be a printer, which helped. It helped.

Little Thunder: Is that when you got directed down to OSU Technical School at Okmulgee?

Real Rider: Yes.

Little Thunder: But you did study painting and clay there as well?

Real Rider: At Okmulgee? No.

Little Thunder: Oh, you didn't? Okay. That was misinformation online. When did you sell your first piece of art?

Real Rider: I really don't remember, I was real young. They probably just bought it to make me feel good. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Somebody in town or--

Real Rider: Probably one of my relatives, yeah. Probably got tired of me begging 7:00them to buy it.

Little Thunder: At OSU, at that tech school, there are a number of well-known artists, actually, who went to school there. Was there anybody in your classes whose name we would recognize?

Real Rider: I think there was a Kiowa and a Comanche boy there, but I can't remember their names right now. I know they went on to be artists.

Little Thunder: In terms of studying commercial printing, what kind of a base did you get for your art later on?

Real Rider: I knew--at the time I was drawing and painting. I knew what the process, [what] it was going to have to go through to get put on a t-shirt or be 8:00printed or whatever.

Little Thunder: Who were some of the artists you admired when you were down there at Okmulgee?

Real Rider: The only one I really knew was Brummett Echohawk because Pawnee, that's a little town. I did have a relative or two that drew and painted, but Brummett was the only one they really pushed, so he was the one I remember.

Little Thunder: He was a wonderful artist. It was kind of a change of environment down there too, wasn't it?

Real Rider: Oh yeah.

Little Thunder: How did you like it down there?

Real Rider: It was okay. I knew I had to do it to get an education. I had to 9:00stay there. But I got to go home on the weekends, so it was okay.

Little Thunder: What prompted you to go on to the Institute of American Indian Art?

Real Rider: I got a divorce and my sister was living in Santa Fe, so I went out there and partied for about three years. During my partying, I met one of the professors there at the school and got acquainted with him and his wife and they 10:00talked me into going. That's how I got in there.

Little Thunder: You were about how old when you ended up going to school there?

Real Rider: The reason I didn't want to go to school there, it's like me walking over here, there's nothing but young kids. I felt out of place, walking over here. And I felt out of place out there. The kids all called me Grandpa out there, so it was okay.

Little Thunder: Were you in your thirties or--

Real Rider: I was in my forties.

Little Thunder: Okay, and you'd been kind of working in commercial printing pretty much up to that point.

Real Rider: Up to that point, yes.

Little Thunder: You weren't the only one who was older when you went there. 11:00(Laughs) That was kind of an adjustment, too, right, being in Santa Fe? What was that like?

Real Rider: I liked it. I wish I had went there first because I would've been in there during its heyday. Things were really happening back in them early days.

Little Thunder: What did you focus on while you were there?

Real Rider: Painting, and then I got in to one of the ceramic classes. I liked that. My painting style just kind of went in to my ceramic work. No one was doing that type of work, so it worked out all right.

Little Thunder: Were you actually making like pottery that you were painting? Or 12:00what were you working on?

Real Rider: Yeah, I was doing pottery. The pottery I was doing, I was getting the clay at Pawnee. I'd dig it up myself. It was some kind of special clay, I guess, because the traditional pottery isn't supposed to ring when you thump it, but mine would ring like china.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Real Rider: They didn't like me to do pottery out there because that our tribe didn't do pottery, but when it boils right down to it, every tribe did pottery. These are the teachers telling me that. We went round and round over that. 13:00Finally, I got tired of it, and I just took off in other things, making other things.

Little Thunder: That's when you got more into the sculptural aspect of ceramic sculptures?

Real Rider: Yeah.

Little Thunder: What kinds of things were you experimenting with in school there?

Real Rider: What do you mean by--what kinds of things?

Little Thunder: In terms of formats, were you making shields already and masks? Or not yet?

Real Rider: In my one pottery class they asked us to--it was our final grade--and they asked us to make a mask. I didn't know anything about masks. The only mask I ever seen was a Halloween mask. All the other kids from the Northwest, and Northeast, and Southeast, and Southwest, they had all grew up 14:00with masks. They whipped theirs out real quick and turned them in. I couldn't think of nothing, and the lady told me, she said, "I'll give you an F if you don't turn one in." I had a friend that when he danced, he danced with a wolf hide on his head, and that's the one I made. It sold. Before it was even finished it sold. So I had to make another one to turn in to my teacher.

Little Thunder: You knew you were on to something then.

Real Rider: Yeah. Then later on I was going to do a--one of the Indians, they would send them off to Washington to sign treaties and stuff. They'd go up there 15:00in their buckskin outfits, or dressed like Indians dressed back then. When they got there, well, they seen everybody with their suits on and everything, so that's what they would get into--pinstripe suits. Then when they wanted to take a picture of them, they didn't really look like Indians, so they'd run into the museum and grab war bonnets and put them on them, and they'd take a picture. That's what I was going to do. I was going to do a life-sized Indian in a pinstriped suit, in braids, and a war bonnet all out of clay. But I didn't like the way artists were doing eyes, so I come up with a way making an eye that would look back at you. That's what I do with my masks now--

Little Thunder: And that's tricky.

Real Rider: --They'll look at you, yeah, and it caught on and sold pretty good.

Little Thunder: Were you kiln--electric kiln firing your masks there, or were you wood firing?

Real Rider: I was firing outside, but I was losing--the way I had to fire them things depended on the wind. I needed a little bit of wind. Sometimes there was too much and it would crack them. That's when I started experimenting. I was able to put them in an electric kiln then. It worked out all right.

Little Thunder: So did you do Santa Fe Indian Market while you were at the school as well?

Real Rider: My last year I did the Market.

Little Thunder: What was that like?

Real Rider: It was good. I didn't make a lot of money, but I sold, I sold out. It was good. Then after that--I got, what do they call it? Tenured artist? Where you're in every year, you don't have to apply again. My mom got sick, so I moved back home, and then she got real bad, so I didn't go that year. They took me off the list because I missed that year, so now I have to apply every year. It's still okay.

Little Thunder: How long did you stay in Santa Fe after you graduated? After you 18:00left the program?

Real Rider: I stayed there until '70. Probably about '71, I think, we moved back to Pawnee.

Little Thunder: Moved back to Pawnee. When you were working in Santa Fe, how did you get your first kiln? Was it an electric kiln, I guess?

Real Rider: Yes, I bought a used one and I bought it from what I sold. Used that money to buy a kiln. Plus, I had access to the school's kiln, so that helped.

Little Thunder: That's great. Were you continuing to get your clay at Pawnee or 19:00were you buying commercial clay?

Real Rider: By then I had quit making pots, so I just quit. It's a lot of work to dig that stuff up and carry it back to your truck or car. By then, I was starting to feel it in my shoulders because that's what it does to you when you work in clay too long.

Little Thunder: Did you get into some galleries in Santa Fe?

Real Rider: Never did. I was only in one and they didn't ask me to get in it. They paid full price for whatever it was and then they just stuck it in the gallery and raised the price up. That's the only time that I know that I was in a gallery in Santa Fe.

Little Thunder: In Santa Fe. What was one of your important early awards?

Real Rider: My first one was I won Second Place in sculpting at Red Earth. I think it was the first year of Red Earth, yeah. First year.

Little Thunder: What was your entry for that?

Real Rider: It was called The Wood Gatherer. Actually, all it was--it was a blanket made out of clay and the wind was blowing it, but you could tell that somebody was in there, but there was nobody in there. But it did have the hair coming out, blowing in the wind and carrying wood. The wood sticking out of it.

Little Thunder: So it was a full figure.

Real Rider: Yeah, it was about that tall, too. Probably about thirteen inches tall.

Little Thunder: Neat. What were some important shows for you early on?

Real Rider: The Heard Museum, Santa Fe, Scottsdale, Red Earth, and Tulsa, and Denver. Seemed like I'd be going somewhere every weekend back then.

Little Thunder: Wow. (Laughter) How did you approach the business side of your art?

Real Rider: My wife handled that part of it.

Little Thunder: This was Priscilla?

Real Rider: Yeah.

Little Thunder: How did you two meet?

Real Rider: We was at a--It was before I got in school. We both wound up at this dance hall there in Santa Fe. I asked her to dance and that was it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What kind of role did she play in the business?

Real Rider: I was a worker. Yeah, I did all the work.

Little Thunder: Did she sort of--

Real Rider: She handled applications and everything.

Little Thunder: And then, I know she was good at the booth, talking to people.

Real Rider: Oh yeah, that was fun.

Little Thunder: Organizing. Typically, with that many shows, you're doing just 23:00almost one a month or something. How much inventory did you try to finish?

Real Rider: That's all I had to do was work. She handled everything else. She fed the pups, and cats, and squirrels. Took care of the house. All I had to do was work. She made sure I was out there, working. (Laughter) Now I got to do it all myself and that's why I haven't been to a show in a long time.

Little Thunder: But you did go to Colorado last year? You went to Morrison.

Real Rider: Yeah, but we got rained out.

Little Thunder: One important thread in your work has been your masks. You 24:00explained the assignment that led you to explore them. I know, besides, Pawnees have this agricultural tradition in addition to the Plains heritage. Is there a tradition of masks, too, or not?

Real Rider: No, I don't know of any. I'm sure maybe there might have been one or two masks that they might have, one of them may have, but I've never heard of any Plains Indians having a mask. Their mask was their war paint.

Little Thunder: And that's often what inspires your designs. I think you were one of the early Plains people to do masks, starting out, I don't think there were a lot of people doing them. How did general public receive them?

Real Rider: They liked them. Some of them were scared of the eyes because they would look back at you, you know. They all seemed to like them. Kids really liked them.

Little Thunder: And you wanted them to look back because--

Real Rider: I didn't plan it that way, but it just happened to look back at you. I looked at other masks that were dead, that didn't have no life in them. I tried to make mine look real.

Little Thunder: How about other Indian people? How did they react to the masks?

Real Rider: They liked them. In fact, I had other artists copy them and then go on to do their own thing. That's the way I learned. I copied other artists in drawings and stuff like that. I'd draw them out of books that were already paintings of other artists and see if I could do it. Then I just took off on my own, did my own thing. I think that's how everybody learns, biggest part of them.

Little Thunder: Yeah, and there are many more mask makers now. A lot of times, you'll incorporate other materials like feathers, or shell, or cloth in your 27:00masks. Did you--were you doing that IAIA, too, or did you just start adding them later?

Real Rider: No, I started doing that mixed-media type mask. I more or less just started right off the bat.

Little Thunder: You do shields as well. Is that a challenge in terms of, if you're going to hang them as wall art?

Real Rider: Yeah, you got to know how you're going to hang them before you start. That part's not really hard, but it's putting them in the kiln and then 28:00firing them without cracking.

Little Thunder: Are they raku, also? What's the--

Real Rider: Yeah, the shields were raku.

Little Thunder: You mentioned Pawnee stories and legends as being as an inspiration for your artwork, how does your Sioux ancestry come into play or does it?

Real Rider: I can make fun of them. I can make fun of the Pawnees, I can make fun of the white people because my grandfather was part white, my mom was part white. My dad was Pawnee. Mom was also part Sioux, so I can make fun of all of 29:00them. Like right now I'm doing a painting of a little Indian boy. He's on a merry-go-round, merry-go-round horse. It's on--can't remember the size of the canvas--but pretty good size. But I painted it to look like a ledger paper. Then I've got little ledger Indians chasing him, and he's on the merry-go-round horse with his fingers like a gun, and he's looking back, shooting at them. Right now I don't know whether to make him and then call him a little Sioux boy or a little Pawnee boy, but it's back in the--between 1900 and 1920s style dress on 30:00that little boy. I've got a title for it, but I don't know whether to call it The Sioux or Pawnee yet.

Little Thunder: That sounds great, I hope we'll get to see it before it sells. I've always liked your ceramic horses. I was interviewing knife maker, Daniel Worcester, and he has a whole room full of them.

Real Rider: Oh yeah, yeah.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) And each one's unique of course. How do you keep them all fresh?

Real Rider: I don't take pictures of them. I mean I do have to have some pictures, to send out for an application, to put on an application. But I don't take pictures of my horses.

Little Thunder: That way you're just starting from scratch. Are commissions a 31:00big part of your work?

Real Rider: No, not really. I have had some commissions, but usually I just make them and go out and try to sell them.

Little Thunder: When you had commissions did you enjoy those or--

Real Rider: No. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I have yet to find an artist who likes [them]. (Laughs)

Real Rider: Because you can't really get wild and crazy with them like you want to.

Little Thunder: Right. How is your approach to the ceramic part of your work changed over the years?

Real Rider: I think about it more now. When I first started, I'd think about 32:00doing something and then once they started selling--I would also have to get into the mood. But once they sold and they were gone and I knew that I had to make more, I got to where I could go out there any time and just start working and didn't even think about it. Now I'm back to thinking about it again. (Laughs) But I haven't done anything in a while. I'm just taking a vacation right now, I guess.

Little Thunder: It sounds like you're exploring painting more these days?

Real Rider: I'm trying to get back into painting. They're a lot easier to carry 33:00than ceramics.

Little Thunder: Do you remember how the Indian Art scene changed? I guess we're talking about the late '70s,'80s, when you got real involved with it. Or are we talking '80s?

Real Rider: Yeah, it was starting to change then. It was starting to--there for a while back in--let's see, it was '62, '63, whatever you'd make, they'd buy it. People would buy it. It's started dropping off, but I still got in on the tail end of it. Now they don't buy as much as they used to, but they're still buying. If they like it, they'll buy it. It's a little slower than what it was there for 34:00a while.

Little Thunder: How about the '80s to the '90s? Do you remember any--. It seems like three-dimensional objects got pretty strong during that period.

Real Rider: It was like in Santa Fe. When your three-dimensional stuff was selling like crazy, they wasn't buying any paintings or jewelry. Jewelry wasn't selling real good, either. Then the next year they'd maybe start on jewelry and buy a lot of jewelry and here's all the sculptors and painters, sitting over there, mad, with mad looks. Then the next year, it'd be paintings. I've noticed 35:00that, I notice how they buy. So I thought, "I'll get them. I'll have paintings and sculptures." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's great, you'll have both. In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, requiring artists to provide proof of tribal citizenship. I think it had more of an impact here in Oklahoma, but I'm wondering if you've observed any changes on the art scene at that time.

Real Rider: When we had our store, my wife bought all of the jewelry. She was real good at that. She could tell where it came from and everything. When she 36:00passed away, I went out through Gallup, [New Mexico] and I bought some jewelry and it was all plated. I wound up giving it all away. I'm sure they still do it (you got to be careful), but they just caught stores in Santa Fe that were selling phony jewelry.

Little Thunder: You mean just this year?

Real Rider: Yeah, just recently. And there are people out there that claim to be Indian that are doing stuff that's not real.

Little Thunder: I didn't realize you two had a store. Can you tell me a little about that?

Real Rider: Yeah, we had an art gallery/western store for about seven years, I guess. Did good. When she passed away, it just went down. I didn't close it up when I should have. I should've closed it earlier, but I wanted to keep it open.

Little Thunder: That's a full-time job just running a store. That was there in Santa Fe?

Real Rider: In Pawnee.

Little Thunder: Okay. What was the name of the store?

Real Rider: Prairie Rose.

Little Thunder: Okay, yeah I remember hearing that. Do you have any funny or otherwise memorable travel show stories?

Real Rider: I got a bunch of them. (Laughter) When I started off, I was still in school. This girl from Taos and her boyfriend was a guy from Kansas, she had a little bitty, real small car. Real small. I don't know, we were all potters. She was a potter, and he did sculptures, and I did clay sculptures. I don't know how 39:00we got everything in that little car, but we went all over the place. Now I got a pickup and it's too small, and it's just me. We weren't particular how we showed them back in them days.

Little Thunder: Yeah, you need a few stands.

Real Rider: What we'd do is just grab a table and throw a blanket on it and sit back and wait for them to come by.

Little Thunder: You were the Red Earth Honored One in 2008. What was that like?

Real Rider: It was good, it was fun.

Little Thunder: When you have a longstanding relationship with a show, does that 40:00make it easier or more difficult to do the show?

Real Rider: No, it makes it easier, but I don't know. It just makes it easier if you've been there quite a while.

Little Thunder: You have your collectors that come back and know you.

Real Rider: And you make a lot of friends and they come back every year.

Little Thunder: It's been through its ups and downs, too, like all the state art shows.

Real Rider: I haven't been there for a while. I'm thinking about going this year.

Little Thunder: That would be great, see some of your paintings. Was it an adjustment when you and Priscilla moved back to Pawnee? Was it an adjustment for 41:00you, coming from Santa Fe, back home?

Real Rider: Not for me, for her. She didn't have a hard time adjusting. In fact, she liked it because there was trees and grass. Our house had a porch on it and she liked that. Where out there, they don't have no trees. There isn't too much grass out there. She liked the pecans--pecan trees, so it wasn't hard for her to get used to it. Then we'd go back at least once a month.

Little Thunder: I understand you were part of the Pawnee Artists Association. I talked to Marlene Riding in [Mameah] a couple weeks ago. Did you teach a 42:00ceramics workshop for them?

Real Rider: Yeah, I taught one. Everybody liked it.

Little Thunder: Was that your first time teaching a workshop?

Real Rider: Yeah.

Little Thunder: So what was the most challenging thing about it?

Real Rider: Not wanting to grab some of that clay out of their hands and do it myself. They opened it up to little kids and, you know, little kids are having fun. They'll work for a while and they start goofing off. You just had to go with the flow, laugh with them and get them back into it again. I still have 43:00some of those kids come around and ask me, "Remember when you was teaching us how to do that?" Different stuff. But none of the people really--Pawnee's not an art town. You can't go out and you can't buy clay, you can't buy paints, you can't buy brushes, you can't buy canvasses and stuff. But they like art. It's just that there's no place to really go look at art back there, anymore. When we had our gallery, we always had people in there, just looking. I know it helped 44:00some of the other artists, that they started painting then. They got into it.

Little Thunder: They could sell it to stores, a Pawnee store. What's your favorite thing to make in ceramics?

Real Rider: I'd say a mask. I was doing sculpture of these Little People, but it takes so long, and they're so heavy that I don't make them anymore. I was getting ready to do a series of Indian dogs. Anywhere you go, there's an Indian 45:00dog. May have three legs and one eye, or part of its ear is missing. In fact, we was sitting at the bar the other night and they were talking about seeing these Indian dogs in different places. Somebody said, "Yeah, there was one, running, had a fry bread in his mouth and them other dogs was chasing them trying to get it." (Laughs) There's all kind of stuff you can do with them. It don't have to be a special breed, just make a dog.

Little Thunder: That would be great if you do a couple of those, too. What's the most difficult thing you ever made in ceramics?

Real Rider: I did one of the Little People, had one playing the flute. His arms was holding the flute up, but his arms weren't resting on anything. It's real fragile before you get it in the kiln. To get it into the kiln to fire that thing, it usually takes two or three people because they're real heavy. Once 47:00they got it in there, once it starts firing, it gets pretty hot and that clay will want to melt sometimes. His arms would start to drop, so I had to make little poles to stick under his arms to keep them from drooping down. Then after they're done, you've got to get them out of the kiln without breaking them. Then you have to start adding this, or painting this, and get it ready to go. Then you got to figure out how you going to box him up, and how he's going to ride in the truck or car. I did one that won Best of Show out at the Heard Museum. We 48:00cut across through the mountains. We had to go through the mountains to get to Phoenix. We hit a snow storm, so we had to take that little guy and put a seatbelt on him. (Laughs) He rode up front with me all the way through the mountains, but we made it. I think that's probably why he sold.

Little Thunder: That's a great story. Do you typically--you're not building your own boxes for things. You're just using sort of cardboard boxes and bubble wrap?

Real Rider: Yeah, I used a lot of this foam, have to use that. Cardboard boxes 49:00work great because they give if it leans too far over. That cardboard box is going to give a little bit. Can't say I've never broke one. I have broke one.

Little Thunder: But not very often.

Real Rider: Not very often, no.

Little Thunder: Let's talk a little bit more about your process and techniques. Can you explain the difference between like stoneware and raku?

Real Rider: Stoneware is what they call high fire. It's a special clay that will take that high fire, kind of like--well, china is high fire. Stoneware is high fire. Usually, it's got a lot of--it's called grog in there. It keeps it from 50:00breaking. It won't melt when it gets real hot. Raku is a different kind of clay that it won't go to a high temperature like that. Typical raku-fired piece is anywhere from twelve to eighteen-hundred degrees, which is awful hot, but it's not hot enough to where it'll catch on fire when you open the lid up, because you got to open the lid up while it's hot and reach in there and pull it out. It's red-hot. Where high fire, you stand there and open that door up when it's 51:00ready, you'll catch on fire just as soon as you open that door up. Your clothes will just burst into flames, so you never open that up. With raku, you pull it out at a certain temperature. I use trashcans full of leaves. Some people use paper, other stuff, grass, but I use leaves.

I put my piece in there and it'll burst into flames, catch on fire. It depends on the glaze that I got on there, how soon I put that lid on. I don't really 52:00count or anything. I don't look at a watch or anything. I just know when to put the lid on. What it does, is it traps all the smoke in there, and wherever you've not glazed that thing, the smoke will stick to it. You've got to think about it when you make it, how it's going to look. I used to pull them out and let them dry, or let them cool off just on their own, but now I pull them out and I'll immediately dunk them into water, a tank of water. Cools them off pretty fast. Then you take them and scrub them up real good, get all the stains 53:00off of them. It's more work, it's more fun than high fire. High fire you just put in the kiln and at a certain time you turn your kiln off and wait for it to cool, wait a couple days for it to cool and pull them out. That's it.

Little Thunder: There's no more interaction with it once you put it--

Real Rider: No.

Little Thunder: You use a lot of bright, bold colors. Are these ceramic glazes that you--

Real Rider: Yeah, some of them. When I first started, I asked a couple guys, "Why don't you use color?" All they used was real shiny glazes, or white glazes, 54:00or black glazes. They told me you couldn't use color, and at that time, I didn't see anything in color. I've even used acrylic paints and fired them and get a little bit of color like that. I use ceramic glazes and some of that color will burn off if you're not careful, but if you let it go too long in the kiln, you have trouble with different colors. So we watch it, it comes out all right. I've noticed other artists are starting to use colors now.

Little Thunder: Did you get your raku clay here in Stillwater, or do you--

Real Rider: No, I buy it over in Tulsa.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you have some clay that needs to be used or thrown out?

Real Rider: Oh yeah, I've got tons of clay.

Little Thunder: I think overaccumulation is something a lot of artists share, too. (Laughter)

Real Rider: It's clay that I didn't use. I cut off what I needed, or as I was sculpting, it's clay that came off and I just put it in a bag. A long time ago I was able to take and kind of like making bread, I guess, where you wedge the 56:00dough. What you do is you wedge it to get all of the air bubbles out. Eventually, it'd start to take its toll on your shoulders and your arms, so I don't do that anymore. I just put it in the bag and hope somebody will come around one of these days and say, "Oh man, what are you going to do with that?" And haul it all off for me. No one has yet, so I'll probably wind up throwing it all away.

Little Thunder: Was it more difficult to store clay in Santa Fe or more difficult here?

Real Rider: It's about the same. Out there, it would seem to dry quicker than here, but it still freezes out there and it freezes here and you don't want your 57:00clay to freeze, so you got to store it somewhere where it's warm.

Little Thunder: I saw a picture of a raku buffalo skull that you did for the Colorado show. It seemed like it was getting a bit little abstract, this really nice-looking piece. It that a direction you're exploring more?

Real Rider: Yeah, it's hard to do. When you grow up with realistic art, it's hard to get in to contemporary stuff, but a lot of the old Indian art was contemporary. I can do that, but to do real wild and crazy stuff, to me, it's not art. I mean I know it is art, but I can't do it. It's either got to be 58:00realistic or a little bit contemporary for me.

Little Thunder: What about the scale of your ceramic pieces? Has that changed over the years?

Real Rider: No, my masks were more or less actual size. I've been wanting to do some big pieces, but it's hard to do it in this type of clay that I'm doing. I almost have to use regular sculptor's clay. Have it bronzed or--

Little Thunder: Also, your kiln probably has some size limitations.

Real Rider: Oh yeah.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Real Rider: Actually, it isn't very long. I mean, if it's something that's going 59:00to hang on the wall, you got to think about how are you going to hang it, how are you going to cover that up. If it's on a mask and you want feathers on its head, you're going to have to figure out where the feathers are going to be, how you're going to tie them on there, where to put the little holes in them. Usually, now, it's something I just do as I'm making it. I don't really think about it ahead of time.

Little Thunder: So you don't do preparatory sketches too much?

Real Rider: Yeah, I do every once in a while, but it never turns out like those 60:00sketches. (Laughter) As you go in you're, "Well, it might look better like this."

Little Thunder: Do you keep a notebook of your designs at all?

Real Rider: I used to when I was painting. I was painting and it was like pictures flipping around in my head as I was painting. There was another one came and then after that evening, I'd sit down and I'd think "What was that, anyway?" And I can't remember. I got to where, as them pictures were flipping in 61:00my head, I had a tablet there and I would draw them out real quick and I'd throw them in a box. That way I wouldn't forget them. I wound up with a whole box of thumbnail sketches. After I did them, I just let them throw them away or whatever. I never thought about keeping them.

Little Thunder: So are you painting with acrylics now?

Real Rider: I like to do watercolors. I'm not sure whether I want to do this little fellow in acrylics or oil. I'm kind of thinking, oil.

Little Thunder: How about titles for your ceramic pieces?

Real Rider: Sometimes it's kind of fun, thinking something up. Most of the time you've already got a title in your head before you get started.

Little Thunder: So you always do have titles for each piece?

Real Rider: Yes.

Little Thunder: And how did you handle your signature?

Real Rider: I don't know. They told us in school you had to sign them and to always sign them the same way. I know mine's changed a little bit, but not much.

Little Thunder: Do you sign on the back or on the--

Real Rider: Yeah, on the ceramics they're all signed the same way, but there's nothing fancy about it because you're scribbling in clay. Or, if it's a 63:00painting, then you can do a little bit smoother.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what was one of the decisive, forks in the road for you?

Real Rider: What do you mean?

Little Thunder: Maybe a time when you could've gone this way with your artwork and you went that.

Real Rider: I was painting and I was doing oil. I liked it, but apparently, it didn't like me because it'd get me real depressed. I got to the point, I 64:00couldn't put that brush down. I couldn't walk off and quit. I couldn't quit. I'd just keep painting. If I went to sleep, I'd wake up and I'd have to go back in there and do it again. I couldn't go nowhere because I had to come back and finish painting. And you could only paint so long on a piece. You got to let it rest. So I'd move it over and I'd grab another empty canvas and start on it. I just made myself quit and then I got into clay. Clay is a little different. It was relaxing, I guess, I don't know, but I liked it. I could walk away from it 65:00and come back and finish it. It didn't bother me then. That's where I got started in clay. Like I said, I'm just now getting back into painting. Watercolors, I can walk away from them. I'm sure I could do it with acrylics. I don't know if it's the smell of oil or what it is, it does smell good, but I might have put it up again, but I'm going to try it.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points?

Real Rider: I think it was meeting a bunch of people. I can't remember them now, 66:00but I sure met a lot of people, and going out and partying with them, just having fun. Sitting around talking to them at the shows. Course, it was always fun to sell pieces. It's slowed down now, I haven't gone to any shows in a while.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Real Rider: Probably when my wife passed away and I just didn't want to do anything for a long time. But a friend of mine in Pawnee, he came by and he 67:00said, "Come on, we're going to shoot some pool." I used to like to shoot pool all the time. I started doing that again and kind of getting out and I gradually started doing more work. That was it.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we've forgotten to talk about, anything you'd like to add?

Real Rider: Can you get me a ticket for Bedlam? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I wish I had that kind of influence. I'm going to look forward to seeing your paintings down the road.

Real Rider: Hopefully, I'll have them ready by this summer.

Little Thunder: By Red Earth. Thank you very much for your time today, Austin.

Real Rider: Thank you.

------- End of interview -------