Oral history interview with Karin Walkingstick

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, September 29, 2015. I'm interviewing Karin Walkingstick for the Oklahoma Native Artist project, sponsored by Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We are at Karin's home in Claremore, [Oklahoma]. Karin, you are Cherokee. You have only been showing two years, but your hand-built pots have won several awards at major shows. You use some traditional formats, but you've also been etching figurative designs into your pottery and painting them and painting those pots in ways that are new, so I look forward to hearing more about your work. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Walkingstick: I was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, at the Claremore Indian Hospital and I grew up here. Still live here.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Walkingstick: My dad was a machinist. He worked at, he retired from American 1:00Airlines in Tulsa.

Little Thunder: Okay. How about your mom?

Walkingstick: My mom, she lives in Claremore. She's not working. She doesn't work.

Little Thunder: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

Walkingstick: I do. I have one brother. He's five years younger than me. His name is Michael Walkingstick and he lives in Kansas.

Little Thunder: What was your relationships with your grandparents on either side?

Walkingstick: My grandparents? I never had a grandpa. My grandpas were all gone before I was old enough to remember them. My dad, his mother, I got to know her. She was born in February of 1900. That was Cora May Walkingstick and I got to know her. We had a big family and it was always hard getting time with grandma, 2:00but any time with grandma was really special. I remember laying my head in her lap and her speaking Cherokee to me. I really enjoyed the time with my grandma.

Little Thunder: Yes, I was going to ask if you were around the language very much growing up?Walkingstick: Just with my grandma and she didn't speak with the family for just everyday things. So it was kind of neat when I had my head laid in her lap and then she would speak Cherokee to me because she wouldn't do it very often.

Little Thunder: Did you have any extended family members who were artists?

Walkingstick: You know, on my--my families are so big, there could be. (Laughter) On my mom's side, she has several sisters that do draw and paint and are pretty talented that way. On my dad's side, I have the distant relative, Kay 3:00Walkingstick, who we all know she is a painter and doing very well, but I've never met her. She's a distant relative, but I like to claim her.

Little Thunder: Sure. Is the Cherokee on your dad's side and your mom's side?

Walkingstick: No, just my dad.

Little Thunder: What was your first experience with Native art?

Walkingstick: Two years ago. It's been really new to me. I didn't grow up around Stillwell [Oklahoma]. My dad's from Stillwell. Most of these people live in and around Tahlequah, and it's only an hour from here, so it's not hard to get to. But when I started doing this pottery, I had taken a class with Jane Osti. A friend had suggested that might be kind of fun. We went and took the class and 4:00had a ball and loved Jane. From the minute I had my hands in the clay, I was looking around, trying to figure out-- "This is really fun. How can I do more of this?" Then I started trying to figure out how I could do more of it. I took some clay home and I practiced a lot at home. And I'd visit a lot with Jane and take another class. Jane was very good at guiding me through this and getting me started.

Little Thunder: What was your first memory of actually doing art as a child?Walkingstick: I can't ever remember not doing it. I always had big Chief tablet and my pencils, and crayons--crayons were the best thing, crayons and markers. You could make whatever you want or draw whatever you want. I was allowed to sit on the school bus in kindergarten with the big kids that sat in 5:00the back of the bus because I would draw them whatever they would want me to draw. So they kind of looked out after me. I always had older friends--

Little Thunder: You were getting commissions young.

Walkingstick: Because of that, it started early, yeah. Yeah. Kindergarten art contest, I won the kindergarten art contest. It was just that way. I remember winning in first grade and second grade, and through high school. They still had them.

Little Thunder: Were you working at all in three dimensional [art] at that point?

Walkingstick: You did lots of arts and crafts, yes. I've played with clay before, mostly the kind you cook in your oven, just to do kids' crafts with nieces and nephews. I'm always the one that they come to, "Let's go play art at Aunt Karin's."

Little Thunder: Even in high school, you were pretty serious about your art?

Walkingstick: We didn't have--we had art class, but I didn't do a lot outside of 6:00that. Just at school. I kind of laid it aside for a long time, living life, twenties, thirties. Making quilts, still staying busy, but always doing something creative somewhere. It's just an outlet that relaxes me. It makes me feel good. Until I started the pottery. Now I'm all the time doing the pottery.

Little Thunder: What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Walkingstick: Worked like everyone else. I got married kind of young and had my son, Cody. He lives here in Claremore. He's twenty-four now and doing his own thing, so it's time for me to do my own thing.

Little Thunder: You stayed at home with him for a couple years?

Walkingstick: Yeah. I worked when he was growing up, but we've lived here for ten years, almost eleven years. I have not worked while we have been here. I used to keep my house really clean, but now I have clay dust everywhere.

Little Thunder: It's a beautiful place.

Walkingstick: Thank you.

Little Thunder: So you kind of explained that you started, you saw this pottery class. You took one from Jane, and then you went back and took a few more. What did you learn under her?

Walkingstick: I can't even--I just learned so much from Jane. Jane was, she is an inspiration. If you know her, you know what it is to love Jane Osti. She's just so sweet and so giving. She is not one to keep it to herself. She is all 8:00about sharing the culture and what she knows. She's proud of it and she's willing to share it with you. I got to go on a two week trip with Jane to Maryland, the summer before last. We went up and taught a class at McDaniel College for Common Ground on the Hill [Music and Arts Festival]. We stopped back through Cherokee, North Carolina, and went through their archives at their museum and got to see some of the old pottery. It was really neat. Telling them what you want to bring out and they'll bring it and you can see it up close and personal and take pictures and see, really, how they made their pottery.

I don't do traditional pottery. I don't like going home the same way twice. I like to do different things. Contemporary fits well with me. I like the idea that I can do anything that I want, I don't have to stay in any certain vein. I 9:00am Cherokee, and that makes it Cherokee pottery. Other than that, it's contemporary pottery. I use commercial clay and I fire in a kiln. So far that has been working for me and allowed me to jump right in, and not have to stop and process the clay. I know that's part of it. I have processed the clay, Native clay, and have yet to do a pit fire, but that's on the list to do. I think you should know how. But I don't know that I would really change from what I am doing right now, as far as how I make what I use, but I do like to experiment with it.

Little Thunder: Did it change anything for you, that personal encounter with those older pots?

Walkingstick: Yes, I wish so bad you could snap your fingers and go back for even a day and just see how they lived, and how they used these things. They 10:00were utilitarian. They weren't something you set on the shelf and looked at. They were useful items. They were very central to getting through your day. You had your meal. I would really--I know you can't do that, but how neat would that be? (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Now, when you were working with Jane, was she firing pieces in a kiln for the class? Is that how that worked?

Walkingstick: Yeah, we were using the Cherokee Art Center in Tahlequah. They have two big kilns there and it's for us to use, so we did. I started taking the classes, and then I started helping her with the classes just a little bit. She let me apprentice with her for a little while, and help go set up the classes. 11:00See what she does in teaching each class, how she handles it and what she says to them and different designs that she would have us do. Explaining the paddle stamping from how they used to do it. Some still do. I would like to learn more about the histories. The history behind some of the pots that we have. We'll ask each other, the artists will get together and say, "Is this water or wind?" We're still undecided on some of the designs, but somebody's got to know somewhere, right? We'll find out. It just takes time.

Little Thunder: It was a good way to learn, basically, by apprenticing and how to run the class?

Walkingstick: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Little Thunder: When did you enter your first art competition and what was your piece?

Walkingstick: First art competition was the Trail of Tears show, not this past year, but the year before. I was lucky enough to walk away with a ribbon for pottery. I believe it was Third Place and the People's Choice award. I won that and the Emerging Artist of the Year, so it was a big first show for me.

Little Thunder: That's great. Now, were you set up to do your--did you have your own kiln at that point?

Walkingstick: No, I didn't. I was buying my clay through the art center in Tahlequah and using their kilns. I live an hour away, so it was four hours on the road every time I wanted to fire something. That was my first goal, was I would go to the shows, and I would sell what I could sell and people were buying this. I opened my own account, and I saved my money, and the first summer in 13:00July, Christmas in July, I got my own kiln. Paid for my pottery, paid for my kiln. It's been paying for itself. It's been doing its own--it's been a good trip.

Little Thunder: How did you know how to price your work at first?

Walkingstick: Pricing is kind of difficult. You kind of take--you look at pottery around you, and what pottery, what pottery there is out there. I look at Jane's pottery. Jane's is quite a bit higher than mine. She's been around for a long time, she knows what she is doing, she's well established. That's what you get when you get Jane's work, rightfully. It should be, but mine's going to be lower than that. Pricing is kind of difficult. It's your time, it's how much 14:00you've put into the design. Easier pots are not as much. I've had pieces from a $100 to $3500, and I've done well, all in between that. So far, it's really good. I think I'm sitting pretty close to where I should be right now

Little Thunder: What is your husband's role in the business?

Walkingstick: I couldn't do this without him. I just couldn't. He's such a big support. He likes to laugh about it and say that he carries everything. Well, he does. He also helps me with my website and the business side of things, expenses, and logging everything, and making sure you got your i's dotted and 15:00your t's crossed. And tries to stay on me about making my deadlines, because I'm not real good at that. Not really organized. He tries to keep me organized, I guess.

Little Thunder: What are some of your pottery influences?

Walkingstick: Pottery influences?

Little Thunder: Since it's contemporary and you are not necessarily--Southeastern is one, but are there other influences on your pottery?

Walkingstick: The people that I meet, who I learn from. I think we're all a little piece of who we learn from. Not only did I spend time with Jane, I got to spend some time with Richard Zane Smith.

Little Thunder: Let's hear about that.

Walkingstick: Wonderful guy. Him and his wife are just great. I got to spend a week with him last year, just me and him in his studio building, across from each other. I wouldn't trade that for anything. He's a big experimenter. When I 16:00first started this, I thought I would stay in the Cherokee vein and make traditional pottery. Why wouldn't you? But then you make a few pieces, and for me, I don't want to go home the same way. I don't want to make the same pot over and over again. Richard is a big experimenter. I like that. I like that there is so much to learn. Every piece is a learning experience. He has taught me how to make a corrugated coil pot. I don't have any to show you. I can't seem to keep them. It's just a different way of making things and a different way of learning things when you learn from different things. I appreciate what Richard has had to teach me about painting the pottery. Now I paint pottery. Cherokees didn't paint their pottery [elaborately].

Little Thunder: Can you talk a little bit about your figurative work on pots like Birds on a Wire or Birds of a Feather?

Walkingstick: Birds on a Wire is pretty easy. It's the biggest pot I have ever made. I wrestled with it for a while. Of course, it took more time than any of the other pots, and by the time I was finished with it, I just wanted to have some fun with it. My husband and his mother, their family are birders. It just seemed appropriate. I was talking to her, and I told her I wanted to put birds on the pot, and I said, "What are some small birds?" She is telling me about some small birds that would fit on the pot. I kind of looked those up to see what the shapes were and--

Little Thunder: Are they blackbirds?

Walkingstick: They are not all blackbirds. They are in color. They're in color and they're black. It's supposed to be just a shadow of them, their profiles. I 18:00did carve a little bit into them, so you can see. There's a titmouse. There's a red bird, or a cardinal. Some of the other birds are on the edge. They're all just goofing and having a good time. There is one bird hanging upside down. Some days, that's us.

Little Thunder: You can really see your background in painting and drawing. What kind of paint did you use for the art?

Walkingstick: It's a slip. A slip with a mason-stain color for the color mixed with slip and then painted on.

Little Thunder: Right. Do you always title your pots?

Walkingstick: I do for my competition pieces. I don't always title a pot. Naming 19:00them is a whole job in itself. It's easy for some people, I guess. Birds on a Wire is all I could think of with the birds sitting on a wire. It's not very creative. There is another gentleman I know that does such a wonderful job at naming pots. He popped off with The Party Line. The Party Line! (Laughter) I wished I had thought of it myself.

Little Thunder: How about Birds of a Feather? That's actually painted. There doesn't seem to be much etching, I don't think.

Walkingstick: That one is all incised. There isn't paint on that one. There are different birds all around the pot. It's a Oklahoma birds on a pond scene and they go all around the pot. Great blue herons, two of those. Ruddy duck, a wood duck, just common ducks. Not sure if they have a name, just different birds. 20:00There's a frog in there.

Little Thunder: Now I remember. There was cattails. There was a landscape.

Walkingstick: Yes.

Little Thunder: How about that one that looked like it was painted on your website. It had butterflies.

Walkingstick: I've done a butterfly one. It was called Monarchs in the Milkweeds, and that was to draw attention to the milkweed plant that the monarchs depend so much on. You hear a lot about people planting milkweed plants to get the monarchs here and get them some food.

Little Thunder: And that was painted with some slips as well?

Walkingstick: It was, it was. That one was in the Sherwin Miller Jewish Museum in Tulsa. That's the first place it came out at. I didn't have it very long. I came back and made a hummingbird pot along the same lines.

Little Thunder: What's the biggest challenge you've encountered in your work so far?

Walkingstick: The histories, probably that. Nobody likes to sound silly when they ask you about something that you don't quite know the answer to. It makes you think maybe you shouldn't be making it yet. I have had a little bit of that. There is a pot that we've made, it was from an old Creek site. It was a Creek pot. I didn't realize at first that it was a Creek pot, so now I know. Same thing, I had made a Caddo pot. It's the same thing. I liked the shape. It was all in innocence. It wasn't, you know, stealing anything. It was all in building the shapes. I was learning the different shapes and I liked the shape of those pots. I made them. Now, I know there is a line, a line of respect. You try not to cross that line.

I think just about anything else, it's mine. It's mine. I'm not copying off anything, I'm not looking at anything. I'm making it up as I go. These pots sometime tell me what they are going to be. I've had them change shape. One pot changed shape four different times. It comes out the way it wants to be. It doesn't always go the way I want it to. I'm always happy in the end. I've thought about that before. "How do you know?"--someone had asked me--"How do you know when you are finished?" That's a hard question to answer. I don't know if you're tired of working on it or if you're just satisfied, if you're to the point that you are just satisfied with it. It feels good. You can let it go into the world and be happy about it.

Little Thunder: What is the best piece of business advice you have gotten?

Walkingstick: "Always smile, and always be nice to everyone," I think. I have sold pots that way, just visiting with people, not expecting a sale. Just visiting with someone and having a good conversation. I can think of a time in Lawrence, Kansas, where I was talking to this lady for a long time, and it was kind of slow at the show. We had the best conversation.

She said it was time to go and she left. She came back two hours later and bought the pot that she was rubbing on when she--it was highly incised, and it felt good to rub it. The whole time we were talking, she was rubbing, I think we were both rubbing that pot. It just felt good to touch it. She came back and she missed touching that pot, and she had to come take it home with her. That turned into something. We were just visiting, you know. I wasn't trying to make a sale. 24:00If someone doesn't want it, they don't want it. Just stop by and say hi. Just enjoy your day. If it makes you happy, it does. If it doesn't, then maybe the next one will.

Little Thunder: Thanks for sharing that. What's an award that you have gotten so far that you are particularly proud of?

Walkingstick: Santa Fe. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Tell us about that.

Walkingstick: Santa Fe Indian Art Market. It was my first year out there this year. It was last month. I got an Honorable Mention, my first time out. Shocked, couldn't believe it. Excited.

Little Thunder: In the Contemporary Pottery category? Now was it at IFAM [The Indigenous Fine Art Movement] or was it at the Market?

Walkingstick: It was at the big market.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Walkingstick: The smaller one doesn't have the awards.

Little Thunder: Doesn't have the competition?

Walkingstick: No, not yet. The big show, that's a special one. It looks white, but it [the ribbon] feels blue. It was a big award for me. Also, Red Earth. Red 25:00Earth was a big one. The Kathleen Everett Upshaw Award, that was a big one for me.

Little Thunder: You might explain what that award was for.

Walkingstick: I don't know if I can. I don't know if I can without getting it wrong. I don't want to misspeak, but it was a member of her family that set it up. She was big into the art. It was just a foundation made for her. I'm not sure how to explain that one. I don't want to mess that one up. Also, the first show that I was ever in. That was the first, you know. There was three there. I appreciate every time, I don't ever expect it. It's always a shock when they call your name. It's not my favorite thing to do, go to the front of the class 26:00when they call your name, but you know...

Little Thunder: What was it like being at [Indian] Market for the first time?

Walkingstick: That was exciting, to be out setting up your booth at four thirty in the morning in the dark, and finding your way to your booth in the first place. Like I said, I had never been there, setting up, at four thirty in the morning, and getting ready, and thinking, "People are going to show up." It was very busy. The whole weekend. I had so many great conversations, and met so many neat people. Great contacts, and friends I think that I will have for a long time. I really enjoyed that show.

Little Thunder: It's kind of amazing how many Cherokee potters have started their careers in midlife or later?

Walkingstick: Yes.

Little Thunder: I think Anna Mitchell, and her daughter Victoria. Jane [Osti], 27:00Crystal Hannah. I mean, there are just lots of examples. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Walkingstick: I think it's pretty neat. I didn't know about Crystal Hannah, I didn't know what age she was when she started, but I knew that Annabelle was forty something, and Jane, also. Me too. It lets me know that it's not too late. They have done very well, had long careers, and still going. I don't see an end to it. I don't think Jane sees an end to it. She is happy doing what she is doing. It's a good example to have in front of you.

Little Thunder: You live out in the country. Is that an inspiration for your work?

Walkingstick: Oh, nature, always. Yes, yes. As far as what goes on my pots, it's all nature. I've done deer and birds, and bears, and you know, bears in my 28:00backyard, but it's all nature. I use things, too. I use natural things as tools like walnuts and peach pits and corn. I use all of those in--

Little Thunder: For patterning?

Walkingstick: Yeah, texture.

Little Thunder: Do you make any functional pots?

Walkingstick: I don't. You have to seal the pot, and I don't use glazes. I think a glaze would--I haven't got into glazes. I think a glaze would seal it. I don't use them. They're all just decorative.

Little Thunder: Have you done any out-of-state shows? You mentioned workshops.

Walkingstick: Out of state? Yeah, I just came back from Haskell, in Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas. That was a good show for me. It was a good show for me last year, too. Santa Fe, New Mexico. The rest, I think, are mostly around here. They are in Oklahoma. Tahlequah, in Oklahoma. Cherokee Art Market, about twenty minutes away from me. Not a lot out of state yet. Oh, I did Eiteljorg, Eiteljorg in Indiana.

Little Thunder: Okay. How long have you done that one?

Walkingstick: It was just this year.

Little Thunder: This year. How did that go?

Walkingstick: It was a good show. It was different to the aspect that it drew a different crowd, northern crowd. It was a different crowd. It was a good show.

Little Thunder: Did you get to look around Indiana at all?

Walkingstick: No, we usually go up there for the show and then spend the whole time doing things associated with the show and then home. There is no place like home.

Little Thunder: You're getting ready to do Cherokee Art Market and you have your competition piece finished.

Walkingstick: I do, I do. I usually can't say that. This is a rare occasion. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You want to tell us about that? This won't come out for six months. (Laughter)

Walkingstick: It's a rare occasion that I have one finished this soon before the show. It happened. I'm glad it happened. I have it, I'm ready. I can relax. I wish it happened that way every time.

Little Thunder: You have enough inventory, you think?

Walkingstick: I do. I like to go with a lot, I think, more than most. I like to go with a variety because if there's something you don't see over here, maybe 31:00you'll see it on the other table. I try to keep a big variety, whether they're painted or corrugated or look more Cherokee. Just a little bit of something for everybody. I'm happy when I have a variety, so I try to take a variety. My inventory's down a little bit right now. But working hard to build it back up, keep it up.

Little Thunder: What is your favorite thing to make? I know that you don't like to repeat, necessarily. What is your favorite pot to make right now?

Walkingstick: Turtles.

Little Thunder: Turtles?

Walkingstick: I do like to make the turtles because you can make them so different. Yeah, the turtle, the effigy pots. My turtles are different from anybody else's turtles. I wish I had a picture to show you. I don't have any turtles right now.

Little Thunder: I saw one in two different slips, I think, two different--

Walkingstick: There was a black one that was done with a sgraffito finish. I 32:00sold that this last show. I hated to see him go. It's surprising how you get attached to them like they're almost animals or something. I get attached to the turtles, I don't know why. The turtles are fun to make, because you can make them so many different ways and finish them off. One finish I like to do is a pine needle fire, a flash fire. You take your pottery out and make a little nest of pine needles, put your pottery in it, cover it up with pine needles, and light it on fire. You never know what you are going to get. It's like Christmas morning. Sometimes the result is really, really good and it's really thrilling when that happens. On a slightly breezy day, you can get some really good flame licks on your pottery. I like to finish the turtles that way sometimes.

Little Thunder: Only turtles? You haven't done your pots--

Walkingstick: I do a lot of pots that way.

Little Thunder: Oh, you do?

Walkingstick: I do most of my pots that way. It has them ask questions when they 33:00walk up. They want to know, "Is it wood?" Now I'm getting a lot, "Is it leather?" I can see where they would say that.

Little Thunder: Because there's some nice brown tones in there.

Walkingstick: Yeah, there is really some nice brown tones in there.

Little Thunder: So you do both the kiln and the wood firing, or the pine needle firing, at least?

Walkingstick: Uh-huh, for the finish at the end. Because the clay that I use, it is a commercial clay. It's very orangey. Some of them I'll leave that way if I paint on them, but if I don't have any painting on it, they usually go in the pine needle fire, pine and cedar, but a combination, yeah.

Little Thunder: I don't think you were working when the drought was so bad, but have there been days when you couldn't do that?

Walkingstick: Lots of days. Lots of days of the drought situation. Also, we get a lot of wind. I do have a wind barrier set up for where I do mine but still on 34:00some days, it's a little breezy to be out messing around with it. I'm not a fire bug. I don't like the fire to get out of control. I don't want that to happen. If it's a pretty breezy I won't go out and try it, but a slightly breezy day will get you some good color.

Little Thunder: Do you have any projects coming up that you're particularly excited about?

Walkingstick: I do. I'm with the Return From Exile exhibit that's going around the country. It opened in Athens, Georgia, and it'll be making its way around for the next two years. I have a piece in that. I'm doing the Cherokee Art Market and I'm going to have a little gallery show with Tim Nevaquaya out by the river in Tulsa. So I've got that to look forward to, and my next show, SEASAM, 35:00Southeastern Art Show and Market, with the Chickasaw Nation in Tishomingo is up next.

Little Thunder: You're continuing to sell from the Spider Gallery, I guess?

Walkingstick: Yeah. The Spider Gallery. Poor Spider Gallery, they don't have anything right now because I robbed it all for Santa Fe. I need to replenish them, but yeah, I enjoy the Spider Gallery. There are some other gallery opportunities that I think are coming up as soon as I can build my inventory up a little bit. I've got, not mentioned yet, but yeah there are some gallery shows coming up that I don't think I should mention yet.

Little Thunder: That could work out really nicely.

Walkingstick: I hope so. I hope so.

Little Thunder: Do you get a lot of commissions?

Walkingstick: I do. Commissions, I think, everybody from what I hear, they all 36:00feel kind of the same way about the commissions. They're nice to have. They're steady income, but the thing about commissions is that you're making something that somebody else wants. You're not making something that comes strictly from you, that's what you feel like making. You're making something for someone else. I've done good with them so far, the commissions. I've been happy with what has come out of it, but it's never the favorite. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Let's talk a little bit more about your techniques. You're building. Are you using the coil method on your pots or--

Walkingstick: Yes, I've never used a wheel. I've always done coils, corrugated coils, the bigger Cherokee coil, the way we do it, Cherokee. Like I said, I have 37:00never used the wheel. I get that a lot. People will ask, "How do you get it so round if it's not on a wheel?" I don't know, I've never used a wheel. We have a turntable that we use to turn your work, turn it around where you can work on it. It's all hand-turned, but that helps to get it nice and round, to be able to turn it around. It is a little bit of a struggle. I got some little tips and tricks I like to try to keep myself in the round. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And you seem to like the pinch pot top sometimes?

Walkingstick: Yeah, the notched tops.

Little Thunder: The notched tops--

Walkingstick: I think it adds a nice little extra on the top. But they're not all like that. I like to do that, though.

Little Thunder: What about burnishing?

Walkingstick: I burnish with a stone. They're all stone burnished. In the end, the more time you spend polishing them, the better off it is in the end. When you get that flame lick on there from the pine fire, it can make a really nice--the smoother it is, the better it looks on the outside with the finish.

Little Thunder: Do you ever feel frustrated that you can't burnish as long as you want to?

Walkingstick: I work pretty hard on them. I usually can get them done before it's past time. I usually start on it a little early, actually.

Little Thunder: What kinds of research do you do for your pots, besides what 39:00you've learned from other artists or maybe--

Walkingstick: Because they're contemporary, there's not a lot of research to it. You make what you feel and if it feels good, go with it. I come up with some strange things sometimes just because I wonder if that will work. I made an acorn last year for the SEASAM show coming up. I just wanted to see if I could make it. I had a fat little acorn that I wanted, that I had as an example. I just wanted to see if I could make it. I did. It won first place at the SESAM show and people were commenting. Of course, I'm new. I don't know where people are coming from with what they like. I just make what I like. I pushed myself to see if I can get that cap on there and make that curve. It's just pushing 40:00myself, really. Not a lot of research to it.

Little Thunder: It was a bigger piece?

Walkingstick: Uh-huh, yeah. I really like the way it turned out. What I did before I started making that is I looked online to see acorn pottery, pottery made in the shape of an acorn. I didn't see a lot. The ones I did see, were upside down. I thought, "Why can't you make it standing up?" I didn't see any, so I just tried it. It's just a lot of experimenting.

Little Thunder: The balancing of it, I guess, the shape.

Walkingstick: Yeah. Yeah, it seemed like it would be really top heavy, but it came out nice. (Laughs) A friend of mine has it in his study.

Little Thunder: Great. It found a good home. How do you sign your work?

Walkingstick: Okay, thirteen letter last name's kind of long. So you want to 41:00make sure the bottom is big enough where you can write your whole name out. I do write Karin Walkingstick and I sign it with the year, and I write that it is a Cherokee pot. I write Cherokee on it in Cherokee. On the smaller things, I have a mark that I use for the smaller pieces that I can't quite get it on there.

Little Thunder: There's a lot of relief work that you do as well besides etching?

Walkingstick: Uh-huh.

Little Thunder: Can you talk about that a little bit?

Walkingstick: Okay, so only two years in, now I'm doing these faces. I'm doing this sort of relief work. I did some dogwoods and made the pot really thick because I knew that I really wanted to dig in deep on it and really make it stand out. It turned out fine. It turned out really nice and I was happy with it.

Little Thunder: We'll take a look at that one pretty quickly here. What is one 42:00of the most fruitful, either experiments or mistakes, that turned into something constructive?

Walkingstick: Oh, let's see. Specifically, I can't really think of anything on the spot. Generally, I can tell you that it happens a lot where I will make something and I don't really like it and I won't like it for days. Then all of a sudden, I'll do one little thing to it, and it just makes the biggest difference in the whole thing. It just makes you love the pot after that. I've gotten into these little things where it's just that one little thing, all it needed was that one little thing, and it made all the difference in the world. That's happened to me over and over, where I've not really liked it and then it has turned out really well.

Little Thunder: So you haven't kiln-fired it yet? It's still the clay and you 43:00will end up--

Walkingstick: Sometimes it's before, sometimes it's after. You never can tell. It's usually at the end. It really is. The piece that I'm going to show you is one of them. I wasn't really sure about it and I did that one little thing and I go, "Okay, now I like it."

Little Thunder: What is your creative process, starting with how you get your ideas?

Walkingstick: Honestly, I'm usually laying in bed when I'm thinking about it. I'm usually trying to go to sleep at night and I am thinking about it. What am I going to make next? What can I get into next? I have ideas in my head that I can't get out fast enough. I can't make them fast enough. I almost just don't want to share them until I get them out. But it's like that. It's like when I 44:00wake up in the morning. Sometimes it's the first thing I think about. I guess that's how you know it makes you happy when it's the last thing you think about and first thing in the morning. I spend all day with it. Sometimes if I don't like the way something is going, it'll end up in the bucket, but most often not. I can do something with it.

Little Thunder: Do you ever write things down?

Walkingstick: I do. I do just to remember. There's a buffalo nickel I really want to do and I have the idea in my head. I want to do the front and the back. I don't know how I want it to work together at the front and the back. I want two pieces. I don't know how I am going to get them together. But I know how I want to finish it. I know how I want to do it. I just haven't got to it yet. I just really want to do it before somebody else pops up and does it. (Laughter) I 45:00don't write things down. I don't draw out designs. I just go. Like I said, they don't always end up as the design in the first place, so it's really a waste. Most of the time, they don't end up as the design. So I don't write them down. I don't draw them out. They just come as we go.

Little Thunder: What is your creative routine? Do you work during the day more than at night?

Walkingstick: I'm a night owl. I do this a lot at night. Most days I won't get started on pottery. I'll have my day and done my regular chores throughout the day, then about four or five o'clock, I'm ready to start on pottery again. Some days that will go all night. Some days, two in the morning's usually a good cutoff time for me. But it's not unusual to find my light on at four. I do. I 46:00work better in the evening. I've always been that way. My whole family is that way. My dad always worked night shift, my brother and my son, so I guess that's all of us.

Little Thunder: More quiet?

Walkingstick: It is quiet. You don't have to worry about the phone ringing. Nobody's calling to tell you anything or ask anything of you. No interruptions at four in the morning.

Little Thunder: How do you pace yourself to supply these shows? You have a pretty good show schedule going, it sounds like now.

Walkingstick: I do. This is probably the hardest time to get things ready is right around the Santa Fe Indian Market. If you're lucky, your inventory will take a big hit. (Laughs). Then, to replenish that coming up with the Cherokee 47:00Art Market is a big thing. You have a couple weeks in between. You do have to pace yourself. Get as much built before the Indian Market and then, you have a few weeks between other markets where you can get something done. I will, a lot of times, have something started and then leave to go to a show. When I come back, I'll pick up where I left off and finish it. The good thing is you can walk off from some these things. As long as you wrap them up really tight and keep them moist, you should be able to come back to it and pick up where you left off. That happens a lot, trying to catch up in the weeks in between the shows.

Little Thunder: Is there another potter you would like to work with or apprentice with?

Walkingstick: Yes, yes, lots of Southwestern potters. I would love to--even if I don't work with them, I'd just like to talk to them more. I didn't do this for a 48:00long time and then I picked it up and I got really excited about it. There's nothing that make you happier than just being able to talk about what you are doing because it's such a lone thing. You're not in a group making pottery, you're by yourself making pottery. To be able to get out with other people and talk about the pottery, just to talk about it, is helpful. It makes you feel good. It makes you energized. If you need a little recharge, just go find another potter--Jane, Victoria [Mitchell Velasquez], Victoria McKinney. Just other potters--go hang out with them. You'd be surprised how at the end of your day you go, "I just I can't wait to come home and get started. I got another idea. I want to try this." You get rejuvenated and recharged. It's a good 49:00feeling, just to be able to talk about it.

Little Thunder: I guess you didn't get to visit at Santa Fe Indian Market probably with any Southwestern potters?

Walkingstick: I didn't. Everybody was really busy. I stopped by a couple booths and tried to catch a few people before the show really got started. It's hit and miss because everybody is so busy trying to get going. But after the market, there are so many more that I want to talk to that I've met. It's nice. It's a nice little community of people. I've had a really good time and I've met some great people in the last two years. Everybody I know in the Native American art community, I have basically met in the last two years. That's a lot of people to remember. (Laughter) But they are so good, good in what they do, it's not hard 50:00to remember what they do. Maybe the name sometimes, but you can remember a face and what they do. It's really nice to get to know these people. I met some really good people.

Little Thunder: We didn't get to talk about the Sherwin Miller [Museum of Jewish Art] show [in Tulsa] very much, but can you just explain what the theme of it was?

Walkingstick: It was a show to showcase (I hate to say "showcase") the trials that we have had in both of our pasts. The assimilation and Removal, and then their concentration camps. I had the butterfly pot, the Monarch pot, and we related some of our stories to their stories. Just the strangest things will 51:00make the connection. The children in the concentration camps drew butterflies on the walls as a symbol of rebirth and renewal. They put that there knowing what their situation was and what their future might be or might not be. It was a little chilling--I don't like to look back like that. I know that we have had some rough times like that. I don't--you move past those. You don't forget it, but you try to see the good in it. I know that sounds funny that there would be good in it.

Little Thunder: Then the Southeastern focus show, which was Return from Exile--

Walkingstick: Uh-huh.

Little Thunder: Can you talk just a little bit more about that one? It's multi-media, I guess.

Walkingstick: Yes. Some big names in that one. Troy Jackson, Tony Tiger, Bobby Martin, Roy Boney, just a whole slew of them. Shan Goshorn. Just a whole slew of people.

Little Thunder: Did you get to go to the opening?

Walkingstick: I didn't. It was in Athens, Georgia, I can't even think of the name of the--Lyndon House [Arts Center]. It opened there. They took everything back to where it all started. A few of them went out for the opening and we got to watch from a distance. I love to see the pictures they had from their opening night. I'm really proud to be a part of that, just the names that are in that. 53:00They have proven to be great friends already. I appreciate those people so much including me on their show. I can't wait until it comes here.

Little Thunder: Yes, do you know when it's going here?

Walkingstick: It's leaving Athens, and going to Naples, Florida. Then, it will be in Little Rock, Arkansas. I think it'll spend about a month in each place. I'm not sure when it will be here. I believe it will be next year at the--

Little Thunder: AHHA [Hardesty Arts Center]?

Walkingstick: I think at a museum in Tulsa. I can't remember.

Little Thunder: Downtown, maybe.

Walkingstick: At this moment, I'm drawing a blank on that. It's going to be in Santa Fe next year during Indian Market, I believe.

Little Thunder: How cool. In your very short career, looking back, what do you 54:00think was a real fork in the road for you?

Walkingstick: Fork in the road. What do you mean?

Little Thunder: A place where you could have gone one way, but you went this other way?

Walkingstick: I thought when I first started, I truly thought that I would make Cherokee pottery. I thought I would stay with making just Cherokee pottery. I'd seen people like Jane [Osti] and Tammy Bean, just different ones. Crystal Hannah. I just don't think that is for me. I'm glad that they do it. I think that somebody should be doing it. If there wasn't anybody else, I would maybe consider doing it. But we have those people, and it lets me do what I want to 55:00do, the more contemporary stuff. I have fun doing that. I guess that's what I would say would be the fork. At first, I thought I would do that, but I'm not really built that way. The contemporary stuff, doing the new stuff each time, that's more fun for me, it's more of a challenge. It's fun. But we need those people to do their jobs, so I can do mine.

Little Thunder: What has been one of the low points?

Walkingstick: Low points? That's a tough one. It's so fun and I enjoy what I do. I enjoy it so much that I can't wait to get up in the morning and create some pieces of pottery. I can't really say that there's a low point. I've had such a 56:00good two years. I can't complain. I can't.

Little Thunder: Can you identify one of the high points?

Walkingstick: High points is making my teacher proud of me. My teachers. I want them to know that I paid attention. I listened to what they were saying. Even the people that have given me business advice, down to the person that told me to smile when people come by. I appreciate all of it. Their words of encouragement have been incredible. It's been such a great ride for the last two years. All of it.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we've forgotten to talk about or you would like to add before we look at your work?

Walkingstick: No, I think I have talked more than I thought I was going to. (Laughs) I thought what could I possibly have to talk about? I've only been doing this for two years. What could you possibly want from me? I really have had a good time. I really have enjoyed it, down to the last person I talk to. I enjoy talking to the kids, the kids when they come by my booth. I try to encourage them when I can. I've got little deals out there with kids when they come back for next year. At Red Earth, I've got a little girl named Megan that is going to come back. She was taking a pottery class over the summer. She's going to make one for me and I'm going to have one for her, and we're going to swap when we get to that show. Just little things to look forward to and different things you remember about the people from each show. Sure hope I don't forget that I got to make a special turtle for this show for this person because I want to make them happy and I told them I would. I will. I look forward to 58:00seeing them again. Everywhere I go--I would never considered myself much of a people person, but I sure do enjoy it. I sure have enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: Right. Well, we're going to take a look at your work.

Walkingstick: Okay.

Little Thunder: All right, Karin, can you tell us about this piece?

Walkingstick: This is a dogwood orb. It's pretty heavily carved relief work. It has dogwoods all over it. I just wanted to see how I could do. I had never done a highly carved piece like that.

Little Thunder: It's got some beautiful colors.

Walkingstick: Thank you. Took a while, it took a while. I started out with a really thick pot. That's not what you want to do as a potter is start out with a thick pot.

Little Thunder: Is it heavy?

Walkingstick: It was. It was really heavy before I started carving out a lot of that. It's a lot lighter now. The only opening is on the bottom. It's about the size of a pencil, as big as a pencil is round. It's fully enclosed. It's been painted using a mason-stain mixed with slip and painted.

Little Thunder: How about this piece, Karin?

Walkingstick: This is Birds on a Wire. The birds were carved out a little bit, not highly carved. They were meant to look like a shadow. There's a couple of love birds. There are some birds goofing off. One bird's telling the other bird off. One bird hanging upside down and his friend looking on. It's a big pot and 60:00I just wanted to have fun with it. When I got to the design part, all I wanted was to have fun with it. I didn't want to do anything serious. I just wanted to have a good time with it.

Little Thunder: Yeah, it's fun. You can tell they are different kinds of birds, too. Okay, how about this piece?

Walkingstick: This was a commission piece for another artist. The turtle has a removable shell. He's painted with an underglaze on his body. His back was painted with not only an underglaze, but it also has the color. Was painted with, not only an underglaze, but besides the black, is the mason stain mixed with clay or slip.

Little Thunder: Aw, it's really beautiful.

Walkingstick: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Great place to store things. All right. Now we're looking at one of your painted pots.

Walkingstick: Yes, the hummingbird pot. It's ruby throated hummingbirds and the flowers with Cherokee scroll work on the top and the bottom, outlining those. Again, that is mason stain mixed with a slip for the colors. The black outline is an underglaze. What I did was I painted all the colors and then fired the piece. Then, came back afterwards and sprayed it with an air gun, the black on 62:00it, so the black fell into all the cracks, but it covered up my whole design. Then I wiped it off and the black stayed in the cracks for the outlines, and the rest of it wipes off.

Little Thunder: Wow. That was quite a job burnishing this one, looks like it. Thank you so much for your time today, Karin.

Walkingstick: Thank you.

------- End of interview -------