Oral history interview with Daniel Worcester

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson Little-Thunder. Today is Tuesday April 14, 2015, and I'm interviewing Chickasaw bladesmith Daniel Worcester, for the Oklahoma Native Artist project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Daniel, you describe your work with knives as neo-traditionalist. Your elegantly designed pieces have won you numerous competitive awards and museum shows including an exhibit at the Museum of Arts and Design in New York. Among other honors, you're an inductee into the Chickasaw Hall of Fame and a former Red Earth Honored One. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Worcester: Well, I'm glad you came.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Worcester: I was born in Ardmore about six miles from here. I'd say the first six years of my life, my dad was a professional rodeo bareback saddle bronc rider. We traveled around the country and different places. I guess I grew up in 1:00hotels, and motels, and at rodeos, and things like that. Then after he got hurt rodeoing, he bought a ranch down right around Stewart, Oklahoma. He bought a ranch down there, I think it was like 1,800 acres. It was a really big ranch, and really seemed huge to a little kid. It was kind of wild and wooly down there. (Laughs) We stayed there for a while, for maybe a year and a half. Then he bought this place here right outside Ardmore and we moved here. I grew up here and this is what I call home. Spent twelve years in Lone Grove School, graduated from there. Right out of high school I went to, one month out of high 2:00school, I went to work for Southwestern Bell/AT&T. I spent about thirty-eight years there.

Little Thunder: So your mom, what did she do for a living?

Worcester: She broke horses and she was a jockey. She was very good with horses as well as a housewife. As far as having any occupation outside the home, other than breaking horses--

Little Thunder: She raised horses, too?

Worcester: We raised horses, yeah. Back then there were brush tracks all around. Race tracks. Matter of fact, from here I could walk right over the hill and every Sunday I'd walk over there or ride my horse, and they'd have a four-gate 3:00race track. It was really fun to just go over there and she'd ride. It was quarter horses, but they'd go all over the state. Brush tracks is what we called them. They were really fun and you could learn a lot as a kid.

Little Thunder: Was the Chickasaw on your mom's side or your dad's side?

Worcester: It's on my father's side. He grew up--he was born right north of Pontotoc, south of Ada, so the Chickasaw's from his side of the family.

Little Thunder: Right. How about brothers or sisters?

Worcester: Had one half-brother, he passed away here about fifteen years ago. Other than that, I was the only child.

Little Thunder: What were some of the places that your dad rodeoed around that you have memories of?

Worcester: I've got vague memories of them because I was so young, but I do 4:00remember going up into New York, Niagara Falls, some of those places like that. Before him and my mom was married, he'd rodeo all over. It'd be like four and five of them traveling in a car, and they'd go one rodeo this day, one rodeo the next day. Of course, when I came along, I'm sure it kind of slowed them down a little bit, (Laughter) just traveling all along. After we got this place and he got a job as a ranch foreman, he stayed there until he retired working on a ranch.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Worcester: My grandparents from my mother's side were raised all here. We spent 5:00a lot of time with them. We'd go down to my dad's mom maybe two or three times a year to see her.

Little Thunder: Where did she live?

Worcester: She lived at the old original allotment place, right north of Pontotoc.

Little Thunder: How important was your Chickasaw heritage growing up?

Worcester: It was real important as far as who you were. I just knew I was Chickasaw and I never doubted it or anything. When we went to my grandmother's, she spoke a lot of Chickasaw. Of course, my dad, he'd do it, and he'd teach me some of the Chickasaw words, and some of the Chickasaw slang words.

Little Thunder: Great, so you were around the language a little bit?

Worcester: Yes.

Little Thunder: What kind of art were you exposed to in the home?

Worcester: In the home there was--I guess in the home as far as art, they're just pictures on the wall, that sort of thing as a child. But I took an early interest in art as far as I was always drawing and coloring, and making things, little sculptures, and whittling. I liked to whittle a lot. Actually, I've got a scar here on this finger from when I cut myself, I've still got a scar, and on this finger here from where my cousin cut me. He was whittling with a knife and I wanted that and I reached and that knife slipped and I looked and I said, "That looks pretty bad," and I ran about a half a mile all the way home and had 7:00it doctored up. (Laughs) That's amazing how that scar is still there. Yeah, we used to always do things like that. Back then, all boys pretty much carried pocket knives and there was a game we all played called Mumblety-peg. We'd play that, and you can play it at school, and no one ever bothered anybody with it. It was--

Little Thunder: It's throwing--you want to explain?

Worcester: Mumblety-peg is a weird little game. You take a folded knife and you bring the blades out and then you flip it and if it sticks, then you get to hammer the peg into the ground. If it doesn't, then the other guy does it, and it goes around and around. Finally, someone has to pull the peg out of the ground with their teeth. Everybody just gets a big laugh out of it because when they come up they've got dirt and mud all over their face. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's not the winner that gets to do that, right?

Worcester: No, no, I think not. (Laughter) As far as art at school, there wasn't any art at school, but I loved drawing at school. Everybody'd come to me and they'd say, "Will you draw this picture? Will you draw that picture?" I loved just drawing. I did that at the house and everything, but I was always interested in art.

Little Thunder: Do you remember being exposed to any Native art, specifically, or the first time you might've run across some Native art--

Worcester: As a child, no. I don't remember any.

Little Thunder: And in middle school and high school, were you also encouraged? Did you also take art--Worcester: There wasn't any art at my school, ever. Still, I'd draw everything. Kind of a story I remember was when we got to the 9:00seventh grade, every year at the state fair the school would have buses and you'd get to go up to the state fair for the day, which was-- (we was in first through sixth, you didn't get to do that), but when you got to seventh grade, I guess they thought you was big enough to do something. Anyway, I got five dollars and I got to go up to the State Fair, and me and my buddies, we all just were running wild, having a good time at the fair. I had five dollars, but I knew it had to last all day. I wanted to do something really neat with it and didn't just want to go to the shows. I rode a few rides and I had about two dollars left. I didn't eat or drink anything, because I knew I've got--I ran across this art booth where you could make your own pictures. It was a crazy deal. It spun around and you could put different colors in it and it'd make your 10:00own picture and it was a dollar. The guys said, "Come on, let's go get to this show here. They're fixing to have another show. Let's go see it." I said, "No, I'm going to do this." I did that. I paid that for it, and to this day I kept that and I've got it in my office. What's really funny is I've got other artwork in there from really good artists and when the grandkids come in, I'll say, "Your Poppy did one of these pictures." My little granddaughter looked around and she pointed at the one I did and she said, "Yeah, Poppy. I bet that's it right there." (Laughter) I thought, "Well, a kid can see it." I thought I'd fool her for a while, but no.

Little Thunder: That is funny. Quickly in terms of school then, even though you 11:00were just drawing and painting on your own when you could, or drawing, did your teachers recognize your talent?

Worcester: Yeah, I had several teachers--they'd say, "Go to the office. We're not going to be doing that in here." (Laughter) But I did have--I remember one teacher that said, "That's really good, Danny. You did a good job there," and it made you feel good.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that after high school--why don't you tell us again what happened after high school?

Worcester: After high school, a month after I graduated, I went to work for Southwestern Bell. In August I married my wife, Debbie, and I worked. First thing, within the first six months living, we bought a new little trailer house. 12:00It was great. I told Debbie, "We've got to get some artwork in here. These walls just look bare." I went and bought a whole bunch of boards and painted all kinds of pictures and we hung them all up. Friends would come over and they'd look at that and they'd say, "What's that?" and I'd say, "I painted that." They'd say, "What is it?" and I'd say, "I'm not really sure what it is. What do you think?" They'd just say, "Oh yeah, that's okay." (Laughter) But I knew they was thinking, "What is that?" I kept on with art like that.

Little Thunder: Were they sort of semi-abstract, too?

Worcester: Yeah, they were. I always liked lines, as far as symmetrical lines this way. But I did do birds and different things like that, painting. I was always--for a whole time, I'd always have me some paints and stuff and go and 13:00paint. Something to do with art.

Little Thunder: You weren't doing anything connected with art at your job, right?

Worcester: No.

Little Thunder: What did you do at Southwestern Bell?

Worcester: What I did there was--I think I did about everything: fix cut cables, repair lines, go into people's houses, install phones. Probably went into six or seven houses a day. You got to meet a lot of different people and see how a lot of different people lived and everything. That was a really good learning experience to meet different people every day. I did that, but I just kept on with my--

Little Thunder: See some different art, too, probably.

Worcester: Really did. Honestly, that exposed me to some art, going into people's houses. We'd talk about it, you'd always see something there in somebody's house. Oh wow, there's a Navajo rug and they were always--most people 14:00really liked to show and tell what their art was. So it wasn't like being confined in an office or a factory job all day. It was just like every day was a learning experience. You might see a little piece of art, a statue, or anything, and people really always liked to tell you things and talk about their art because they was proud of it.

Little Thunder: When did you, while you were working, when did you get back into three-dimensional work, and how did you end up in knives?

Worcester: I was just kind of antsy about it. I knew there was something I wanted to do with art, but I just never could put my finger on it. I seen this ad for a bladesmithing school in Texarkana, Arkansas, which was an extension of Texarkana up north at Washington, Arkansas. I told Debbie, I said, "Look here, 15:00this looks kind of intriguing. I wonder what it's all about." She said, "You need to find out a little more about it." So I called and I found out. What it was, it was the bladesmithing school. It's where you could make your own blades. I said, "Wow, that seems neat. You make your own blades. You don't just grind things off, but you actually go through the whole process." Anyway, I found out all about it and I told her. She said, "Well, you need to go do that." I said, "I hate to leave here and leave you for--" It was two-week school--

Little Thunder: A two-week school.

Worcester: --hate to leave you with three kids and an old pickup because we had an old pickup and a newer car, a Monte Carlo, and she took out them Monte Carlo keys and said, "You go down to that school."

Little Thunder: How old were you?

Worcester: Oh, it was in 1989.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Worcester: I can't remember--I'd have to figure up how old I was, but the way I always say it I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now. It was a good experience as far as I went and I learned. It seemed like I just absorbed it. I just ate it up. I finally had my hands on something that I could actually do. It was just for the blades. You learned how to make the blades and everything, so after that was through I came home and I'm thinking, "Now I've got to go see what I can do with it as far as handles and everything like that." I gathered up all my equipment and everything. That was a process, buying. I'd go to auctions and sales and try to find things that were used that you could put together and I wound up putting together everything. That was probably about a year and a 17:00half, two-year project, just getting everything together.

Little Thunder: If you've never made a handle before, and you've not had the opportunity to watch anybody else make a knife handle, that must've been kind of a challenge.

Worcester: Well, it was. I bought a little book and it was explaining how to do it. Of course, you read books and there's nothing like hands-on experience. Through trial and error I managed to muddle through it and get it done. Then there was always these knife books you could get at the store, and read about all the experts, about how they did it. I'd get those books, and I'd look at them, and I'd try to do this and try to do that. Finally, I said, "I'm not getting another book." I threw every knife book I had away, and I said, "I'm going to do it on my own." I did and I've never gotten another knife book. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Was it partly because what you were trying was not working?

Worcester: It's partly--

Little Thunder: Based on your reading?

Worcester: With me, it's that I can't follow instructions. If I'm there and somebody's showing me something, I can pick it up like that. But to read it, it just doesn't compute.

Little Thunder: So you're working your job, too, at the same time. Then when you come home at night--

Worcester: In the evenings--

Little Thunder: --or in the evening, you're tinkering.

Worcester: Yeah, weekends.

Little Thunder: When did you decide, "Okay, now I know how to do this, I'm going to make a few of these and I'm going to do something with them."

Worcester: I finally finished one knife. That was my whole goal, really, is just to make one for myself because I always admired custom knives, but I couldn't afford one. I thought, "The $500 I spent for my school, I can probably at some 19:00point make a knife that I can say is mine and that will cover the expenses. I won't have to buy one." I actually finally finished my first knife and I was just really proud of it. It looked terrible, but it was usable and the blade looked real good, but the handle was really funny looking. Somebody came by and I guess they--I probably showed it to them. They said, "Wow, that's neat. That's pretty good," and I thought, "It is?" (Laughs) I thought, "Hmm, I'll make another one. I'll try to do a little better." I just kept piddling and making one.

Finally, someone told me. They said, "You know, you're Chickasaw, you could go up to Red Earth." I said, "What's Red Earth?" They said, "It's this show and if 20:00you're Indian, you can get in. If you do artwork or what you're doing there, you can probably get in and see."

I thought, "That sounds neat. I think I'll try it." I made a few calls and finally found out and I got an application and I sent it in. I think back then you had to do--I can't remember if it was slides or photographs, but I'd always have a 35 millimeter camera, so taking photographs, that was fun with me. Anyway, I sent it in the first year and they sent back a letter that said, "Sorry, thank you for entering, but better luck next time." (Laughs) I thought--

Little Thunder: You didn't get accepted.

Worcester: Yeah, but it didn't bother me a bit. I just told myself, I said "I'm going to try and do a little better." The next year I sent in and I was accepted, so I was really happy. "Wow, I'm going to a real art show."

Little Thunder: From the beginning I imagine your handles were--had you already developed this sort of inlay look--

Worcester: No, that hadn't came yet. What I had was pretty much what people would say, the traditional knife, like a bone or a deer antler, or a wooden handle. That's pretty much where I was at that time.

Little Thunder: All right. What was like when you got into Red Earth the following year?

Worcester: Oh gosh, it was fantastic. I was seeing all this great artwork there and visiting with different artists--not selling anything, but that's okay. I was just happy to be there. Then somebody came by and bought something. I thought, "Wow, that's pretty neat to sell something. That means they like it, 22:00too." It was just a real neat experience. Got to meet a good buddy of mine, Benjamin Harjo, he came by. That's the first year that I met him. We talked and he said, "Daniel, you need to see about going out to Indian Market." I said, "Where's that?" He said, "Santa Fe." I said, "Yeah, that sounds good." After I got through talking to Ben, we came home, and I was telling Debbie, I said, "I just can't believe an artist like Benjamin Harjo would tell me that my work was good" because he told me he liked that, and he told me I could go out to Santa Fe to Indian Market. I mean to have Ben tell me that I was --that was really encouragement. I guess I was just encourageable. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How did you then find this other style of working with the handles?

Worcester: That's pretty neat. I got--

Little Thunder: It was probably the first time you'd seen Ben's work, which is a lot of the times very geometric.

Worcester: Exactly, it was. It was very--

Little Thunder: Colorful.

Worcester: --it was very colorful. I was real impressed with the way the colors were and everything. It stuck in my mind, all those colors. Then I wound up getting an application and I did send it out to Santa Fe. I got in out there.

Little Thunder: How many years is this after Red Earth?

Worcester: I want to say a year. It was Red Earth and then it was like, maybe, the next year. I sent in to Santa Fe and they said they accepted me and I told 24:00them what I did, but they wanted me to forge. They wanted me to do a demonstration. I thought, "That's really good. I'd like to do that out there." I enjoyed--I'd been to several spots around here as far as just showing how I forge. I was ready to go and they called me and they said, "We're going to have to cancel that." I said, "Why? What happened?" They said, "We've got a drought this year." The fire marshal won't let them do any kind of open flames. They wanted to know-- "is that what you had?" I said, "Yeah, I've got a coal-fired forge and that would be probably dangerous." Anyway, they let me share a booth instead of giving me my own booth, and I did that.

The next year I'd known Les Berryhill (he's a good friend of mine, and Pat) and I got together with him. We shared a booth the following year, and we've been sharing ever since. But I was still doing my traditional type artwork pieces. 25:00Les, he gave me some old dominoes he said was his Dad's. He said, "You might try using these if you can on any of your handles." I thought, "Okay, I'll try that." I brought them home and I laid them over on my shop desk and I never tried them. I'm still doing with the wood and the bone and things like that. Then one day I just was out of material as far as my traditional wood and bone. And I seen his dominoes over there and I tried them and I thought, "That's neat how those dominoes look and everything." I started putting a little bit of inlay in them, but they were white dominoes. They weren't any color or anything.

The next year, I kind of mixed them up with the traditional, but they still looked traditional. At that time, I was leaving the dominoes showing the dots on 26:00it. People were saying, "That's neat there like that." Then the next year, (or it might've been the year after) I did that a couple of years. I was picking up collectors and everything and they were liking what I did. Especially being as I forged my own blade, I could have all kinds of neat designs where the blade was.

Then I'd ran onto some billiard balls and some old colored dominoes and I put that with there. I made one knife that was all different colors. At that time, they had a miniature category and I made a small one like that, too. I thought, "These are pretty. I like these. I'm going to make some more of them, not like that, but using these colors."Of course, go out to Santa Fe and you're out there early to enter your work. Went to enter it and I'm just happy as could be with 27:00these pieces. The person that I sat down at the table with to look at them, she looked at them and she said, "Where'd you get these out of? Cracker Jacks?" When she said that it just felt like somebody stuck a heart in my knife. I thought, "Uh-oh, they're not going to like this, this isn't good." (Laughs) She said, "We can't take this. What did you make these out of?" I said, "I found some old dominoes and I found some old billiard balls. I had some old silver that I used for inlay." She said, "I'm going to go check with the director." I could see them over there talking and going back and forth. All the time I'm thinking, "Most of my pieces I've brought are like this. This isn't going to be a good day." Then she came back and she said, "He said it'd be okay, being as you found your material. This is just different material that no one's ever--" (she'd 28:00never seen anybody bring in). I said, "I understand."

I was happy they took it. Then went about my business and come Friday night, the art preview came up. I'd seen on the table I'd won a first place on my big knife, and a first place on my miniature. Man, I couldn't believe it. I thought, "Wow." Then the collectors--they really did like that type of work. I was kind of torn between doing things like that because I knew I was going to alienate some collectors because I'd built up a pretty good following of collectors that liked the traditional stuff. But there just wasn't anywhere else to go with the traditional. It was boring. I was bored with it, so I had to leave it behind and go to something else. This is the way I wanted to go, but I was just hoping there'll be new collectors. I was really surprised, most of my old collectors, 29:00they were in love with it, and I picked up a lot of new collectors. Every year I've been picking up new collectors and it's been great.

Little Thunder: They followed you into the new style?

Worcester: Yes, they did. That was really--it was kind of scary because you think you're going to make people not want what you've got, but yet that's what you want to do. In the end, it was really what you want to do. I'm still that way today. I look for all kinds of new things and different ways to do things. I think it would be really boring if you didn't.

Little Thunder: That's a great story. They just didn't know how to categorize you. What role does Debbie play in your art business? It's kind of a two-person deal a lot of times.

Worcester: She provides good moral support and she's a good critic. She'll see 30:00things and she'll say, "Why did you do it like this or like that?" I'll look at it and I'll say, "I don't know." (Laughter) She's good to bounce new ideas off of. Sometimes she'll say, "I really do like that." As far as in the business, she says, "That's yours. You've done some good so far, you just keep on doing it."

Little Thunder: You have a neat kind of website. Did she help with that or--Worcester: I don't have a website.

Little Thunder: Oh, you don't?

Worcester: No.

Little Thunder: You know what, I bet I was on Chickasaw Nation [website].

Worcester: The Chickasaw Nation main--

Little Thunder: They have a really nice website.

Worcester: They do. They do that.

Little Thunder: In fact, yeah, I didn't see a website for you (need to correct that). How did you figure out how to price your work?

Worcester: You just put a price out there, thinking from what other things that you've seen. Time-wise, you can't really show your time on anything. As far as what would something like that be worth to someone, that's about the only way I could do it. Pricing is kind of a hard thing to do because you never really know--you put a price out there. You have a price that you're comfortable receiving for your time, but then you wonder, "Is anybody going to pay that?" Then you see how it goes and lets it equal out and you think, "This is a happy 32:00medium. The customer's happy and I'm happy.

Little Thunder: When you went out to Santa Fe, that's sort of a different pricing.

Worcester: Actually it can be, but I've never adjusted with winning on my first place.

Little Thunder: With the prize winner?

Worcester: Yeah. I've just priced them and whatever the price was there, whether I won or didn't, it'd be that way. I did, in 19--I want to say 1999 (I think it was '99) that I made a pair of spurs and I won the Challenge Award. I was real happy with that.

I really had no idea in the world what price to put on a pair of spurs, but I put the price out there and the collector was happy to get it. They'd never 33:00bought a knife from me, but they just came by because they'd seen the spurs. That was one thing, just like pricing. Who knows?

Little Thunder: Right. What did you charge for your spurs?

Worcester: I think they were around $1,800. I think I made another pair for the next year and that was it. I just got into spurs. It was one of those things that was different and I wanted to try. My dad, with his rodeo experience, he knew some old spur makers. He told me how to make them as far as from one piece, so they weren't welded. They were just one piece, each spur. I wanted to try it and see. He'd told me about it. I tried that, but what I found out with spurs is I really don't care to make any more after two or three pairs because you have 34:00to make the other one identical. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah.

Worcester: And that's kind of boring. (Laughter) If I'm going to anything that's boring, it doesn't last long.

Little Thunder: What other kinds of things do you make besides knives?

Worcester: Usually I'll start my shop up here in March when it warms up because it's warm weather. My shop's outside. I do the silver inlay and things like that inside, the tedious things, but outside where I forge my blades and everything, it's outside and I like warm weather. I'll start maybe in March and finish up in November when it starts getting cool. During the winter months I'm making jewelry; I like making jewelry. Sometimes I'll just paint and do that. This past year, I put together a book that I'd been writing. I wanted to get it together. 35:00Every year I do something to keep me going.

Little Thunder: During the winter.

Worcester: Then when I'm ready to start back up, it seems like I'm invigorated and ready to go again because everything that I found that I do, whether it's jewelry or whatever, seems like I can relate it to my knives, and different ideas, and handles, and things like that. Every year's a new year. Who knows what it's going to be?

Little Thunder: That's neat. What other shows then do you do besides Santa Fe and Red Earth?

Worcester: I'll do the Chickasaw Festival. It was being held in Tishomingo in October, but now they've started a new festival which is going to be at Sulphur, at the Artesian every May. There's big hopes for it to really grow, and that's 36:00always a good springboard in that time of the year to show new work and kind of see the response you get from different people and hopefully pick up new collectors.

Little Thunder: And the Artesian is like a workshop and co-op kind of gallery as I understand it.

Worcester: They do have a gallery across from the Artesian Hotel.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Worcester: It does have workshops there for practicing artists to display their work and how they do it.

Little Thunder: At last year's festival, which was the first one, you mentioned that you did a workshop.

Worcester: I did a workshop as far as giving a short speaking of how I do my work. I didn't do any actual hands-on demonstration of forging.

Little Thunder: I see. Tell us about the Chickasaw Artists Advisory Group.

Worcester: That's a group I was asked, last year, if I'd be interested in helping form that group, specifically to get a traveling show. I was happy to be a part of it, myself and four others. We formed the Chickasaw Advisory Group.

We've put together a proposal, which has been accepted to travel to one international show and I believe six other shows across the United States that will have twelve Chickasaw artists with their different artwork. It should be really interesting. It will end up in--Sulphur will be the final stop for it. That as well as advising other different aspects of art shows there in the 38:00Chickasaw Nation. It's a real opportunity to promote other Chickasaw artists and highlight their work as well.

Little Thunder: That sounds really exciting. What's the overseas destination?

Worcester: We're not sure yet. It just was finalized this past month. The first thought is Paris, but we're not sure if it's going to be Paris or London, but they're going to have to go and check all the venues.

Little Thunder: Yes, and hopefully you'll get to go check out some venues. (Laughs) How much of your business comes from just sales at booths, and how much is from commissions?

Worcester: Actually, all of them is from sales at booths because I don't do any commissions. I used to do a few commissions, but then it just got to be so 39:00boring. I like the interaction with customers, with collectors and friends. I like for them to be able to see what I've got, and handle it because it's functional art they can look and see. You've always got that unknown when you do something on commission. Is it really what they thought about in their head and everything? To me, it's too stressful. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Understand. You were inducted into the Chickasaw Hall of Fame in 2009. What was that like?

Worcester: That's great. I couldn't believe it. The Governor called and said I was inducted into, he said into the Hall of Fame. I was laying on the couch one night when he called. He told me, he said, "Daniel, just wanted to call and let 40:00you know that you're being inducted into the Hall of Fame." He told me when it was and everything and to be there. I hung up and I said, "Well, thank you that sounds great." I told Debbie--she said, "Who were you talking to?" I said, "I was talking to Governor Anoatubby and he said I was one of the finalists for the Hall of Fame."

She says, "So what does that mean?" I said, "I guess it means that there's probably six or seven people that they voted on and they're going to pick one of them to be there. I said, "That sounds good, doesn't it?" She says, "Yeah." Then I got to thinking, "I really don't know what he said." Then I thought, "That's Les calling me and acting like that was the Governor. That wasn't the Governor calling me." The next day somebody else called me to make arrangements. I said, 41:00"You mean I am inducted into the Hall of Fame? I thought that was just kind of a contest or something." They said, "No, you have been inducted." I thought, "Whoa." (Laughter) I told Debbie and she said--it was just a really fun deal.

Little Thunder: Were your children able to go, too?

Worcester: Yeah, they were all there and my parents were there and some of the relatives. It was just a fun experience, altogether.

Little Thunder: What do your folks think of your success with knives in the art world?

Worcester: They are very, very proud of what I've done, and they're amazed. Every time I'll have a different knife, I might show it to them, or I've won a different award and I'll tell them. They're just--their only son, they're proud. 42:00(Laughs) I'm happy that they were able to see me do some of my accomplishments.

Little Thunder: Do they have a few? I know your grandkids have one or two.

Worcester: They have one, yeah. My grandkids each have one. Actually, one of my grandsons, since he was born, I make miniatures, so I've made him one from the one ball of the billiard balls up to the eight ball. Every year I give him one up until he's sixteen. Then I'll make him a large one.

Little Thunder: That's a wonderful tradition to start. I understand your son also makes knives?

Worcester: Yeah, my youngest son, about eight or nine years ago, he came over one day and he said he'd like me to show him how to make a knife. So we got out 43:00there on the forge and we spent all day. Everything I did, he'd do, and he picked it up real quick.

I helped him fix up his shop, and he's got a shop. He lives about ten miles from here, and he's developed his own style. But I was really glad that he picked it up. He's real artistic and he collects Indian art. He's been exposed to Indian art since he was a baby because of all the shows we went to. He's really got an eye for art and I'm proud of him.

Little Thunder: Right. How has your work with knives, in a way, impacted your involvement with your Chickasaw culture?

Worcester: I think it's really been an asset. One thing about the knives, it 44:00just opens up a new area as far as what other artists can do. I think it shows other artists that you might not have to do things traditionally because whatever you do as an artist a lot of times--for instance what I do, I might be making my own traditions as I go. I think it lets other Chickasaws see that you can do a wide array of different types of art.

Little Thunder: And you went full time with your knives when? Around when?

Worcester: When I retired from AT&T.

Little Thunder: Which was around--

Worcester: Three years ago.

Little Thunder: Oh, so it's been that--you've been on the show scene a long time, but only for three years have you been full time.

Worcester: Have I been--yes, yes.

Little Thunder: Is that different?

Worcester: The difference is I don't go to work. (Laughter) I come out to my 45:00studio and I might check my garden and then come in and forge a blade. I might take the dog a walk around the pasture, so it's really been great. As far as my production, I've not done any more. Now I'm able, I've slowed down a lot more. I might not take chances as far as having to do it in bad weather, whereas before I would be doing things in bad weather which I don't do now.

Little Thunder: You've also done photography, I guess, all your life?

Worcester: Since the late '60s when I got my first little Polaroid. In the '70s, mid- '70s, I got a 35 millimeter Canon. I've been a really avid photographer 46:00since then. I enjoy taking photographs.

Little Thunder: Have you had any photography shows?

Worcester: No, not any shows. In Exhibit C, I do have a three-piece mural hanging there that I did of a cigar store Indian. It's been hanging there for about a year now, but as far as any other shows, I've done one local show. I've not really been pursuing anything like that. It's just something I get to do during the off months. Kind of a hobby-on-a-hobby or something like that, I don't know. I do all my own photography as far as when I do an ad or anything like that.

Little Thunder: Right, and Gallery C is the one in Bricktown with the Chickasaw Nation.

Worcester: Yes, it is.

Little Thunder: Well, let's talk about your process and techniques a little more. I mean the beauty of your knives is apparent, but when people know the process, it seems even more impressive. I read that you work with found materials including older steel. I wondered if you'd ever found a newer piece of steel and worked with it, and how it held up.

Worcester: I have tried different types of steel. All types of steel I've tried, but I've always went back to the old steel. I like old harrow rakes. I've got some out back. I like the teeth on them. They make really good steel and after a while you can kind of feel the different texture. Another one I like to use is old coil springs off of Model As and Model Ts. They had the old coil springs 48:00under there. That's just really excellent steel.

That's part of my process is locating old different steel. I really like to try the old. Plus, it just seems like it provides a little bit of history in a knife. Like this knife here that I've been working on, it's from an old coil spring. It was found out in a junkyard, but it's got new life into it. The steel, I beat my steel down, and I hammer the edges. You just keep hammering the edges. What it does is it compresses the molecules to make a better cutting edge. Even though most people, they don't buy my knives to use, but yet they're very functional. That was one of the things I learned in bladesmithing school is how to just keep beating the steel to compress the molecules to where it makes a 49:00very, very fine cutting edge.

Little Thunder: Yes, because I've seen on the video the steel that you brought out of the forge and it looks huge, of course, compared to your knives. You're just actually beating it into that smaller and smaller shape.

Worcester: Right, that's really the first step is beating it down. Of course, it's a long piece on that particular piece, which means you don't have to use any tongs and it's really easy to hold that piece. That particular piece was from an old truck spring that I'd split in half. You can make a longer piece with that, but yeah, it's a lot of work.

It's hard work and it's hot, but I like it hot. When it gets hot here, I'll put my thermometer up in it and it may be 135 degrees in front of that forge, but I'm sweating, and it's just exhilarating. You just feel really alive, or I do 50:00when I start hammering. You're just sweating, and you just keep hammering and hammering. You feel real alive. I don't know, it's like you've ran three or four miles and you just feel real good and drink you a whole pot of tea. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: It's a good workout. You mentioned that, in the video, that you harden the steel in oil. Are you talking about cooking oil, or motor oil or--

Worcester: I use motor oil, yeah. I use motor oil and harden it in there. It provides--you could use all kinds of mediums. You could use cooking oil, you could use water, just all sorts of things as far as the type of steel I use, but the oil provides a quench to where it's not real sudden.

You can, if you do it too sudden, you can actually cause the blade to just crack. Once you do harden it, I've got to be careful by the time I get it back 51:00to the oven because I have dropped them before and they'll just shatter. So you've spent a lot of work there and you want to sit down there and just cry over your spilt milk. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So they go into the oven afterwards for the final hardening?

Worcester: After I forge it out, I'll grind it out and get it all to the shape that I want. Have my filework--I do all my hand filework to make the designs. Then I'll put it back in the fire to harden the blade. Then I'll take the blade when it's real hard, as hard as it can be (it could just shatter). I'll bring it and put it in the oven and let it go back down nearly to the temperature where it's usable and it won't break. Then you've got your usable blade. Then it's ready to put whatever you want to put on it: the handle, the bolster, 52:00everything. It's ready there. You've got a lot of hot, hard work up to that point. Then you get to do the fun stuff.

Little Thunder: It's like a kiln, I guess, the oven that you're talking about?

Worcester: Yeah, it's just a small little oven that you just set it at what temperature you want and it brings it right to that temperature, and you've got a usable blade.

Little Thunder: My thought was always, how do you make sure that the blade doesn't break from the handle?

Worcester: As far as the blade and the handle not breaking?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Worcester: Every piece that I made is called the full tang to where the steel and the blade are all one piece.

Little Thunder: All one piece.

Worcester: It's all one piece so that it's not going to break.

Little Thunder: Right, and you use coins as I understand sometimes?

Worcester: I do. I use a lot of old coins--

Little Thunder: The handle and the blade.

Worcester: --as far as separating the handle from the blade. You've got 53:00like--that's an old Indian Head nickel. Just different things like that.

Little Thunder: That's neat. Have you experimented much--you have the wonderful inlay look and lots of beautiful colors that you put together, but have you experimented much with texture with the same kinds of color and inlay? Or not? Any kind of texturing?

Worcester: I haven't done anything that would--you're talking about giving it a different feel?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Worcester: On the outside?

Little Thunder: On the outside.

Worcester: With leather, if you use leather, I think I've done one with leather and it makes it a different texture on the outside like you're talking about, but actually doing anything like that would be a more traditional type where they did use leather and things. Most of mine when you're through, it's smooth 54:00to where it looks like it's all one deal. I haven't done any in a long time, but the small miniature Indian corn, I've done knives with those.

Little Thunder: Oh, for the handle.

Worcester: For the handle, and it looks like a photograph, but it's actually different colors. The corn makes different colors and it makes a pretty neat, but still the texture's all smooth.

Little Thunder: I wonder if you were looking for an influence, and how you ended up with the knife handles that you like. Would it have come from jewelry? Would it have come from beadwork? Would it have come from other places?

Worcester: Yes, it would. I've asked myself that. It would come from jewelry. It would come from--I collect old baskets, Indian baskets, and it would come from 55:00that. I collect old rugs, Navajo rugs, and all those kind of influenced me on my handles, but yeah, you're right.

Little Thunder: How much time do you spend actually just looking for materials?

Worcester: That's just kind of an everyday thing, anymore. Wherever I go, usually on weekends, I like to make a garage sale, estate sale, and if I find something, I'll get it. Just driving down the road, if I see something out in the pasture that might work, I'll get it, but I look for old steel.

As far as the silver, I like to use--I've bought a lot of old silver spoons and different types of teapots, and things like that. Anytime I see anything sterling, I'll buy it. That's pretty much what I--I've got a whole bunch of coin 56:00silver, also, 1802 to 1830-type spoons that I use. That all works into an old piece. You've got something that's new, but yet it's old. You've got old material all in it. Even the billiard balls, like '40s and '50s pool halls and things they came out of.

Little Thunder: Right. Like you mentioned, it's got the history and the story. Have you ever bought--I was thinking of all the agricultural equipment that you do see resting out in the field, have you ever got things from your neighbors close by?

Worcester: Actually my dad, he supplies me a lot of those. I helped him with his antique auction for twenty-five years. Every year he--that's what my Dad does since he retired. He buys up antiques. So I learned a lot about different antiques. Since he's done that, he's acquired a lot of old pawn jewelry, and 57:00Indian rugs, and baskets. That's kind of where it's interconnected there, but he's always come up with different farm equipment and when he gets something new he'll holler at me and I'll go look at it. "Yeah, I'll buy that from you."

Little Thunder: (Laughs) That's a good relationship there.

Worcester: As far as materials, there's never really--I've never had a shortage of materials. When I started I was using stuff like that simply because it was kind of high to go buy all that stuff, but I could find stuff for next to nothing. I think that's how it worked out, but I liked doing it that way so I've never changed. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Right, right. What kind of impact do you want your knives to have on the viewer when they see them?

Worcester: Every person has a different interpretation of what you do. When they 58:00see it, most of them say, "I can't believe that these are knives. I've never seen knives like this." That makes me feel good. I like to know that I'm doing something that maybe no one else has done. That surprise. I see a lot of surprise. I see a lot of admiration of it, and appreciation for turning old stuff into new stuff. It's good to get the feedback. That's one of the things that you like, being one-on-one with a collector.

Little Thunder: Also, I'm struck by the shape sometimes of your handles, I don't know what you call it--we'll be looking at one that has kind of a split almost 59:00like a fin. I'm wondering what inspired that.

Worcester: I like to do just animal shapes. A lot of my pieces I'll kind of incorporate into the shape of maybe a fish, or a bird, or a snake, or a woodpecker, things like that.

Little Thunder: So you're consciously channeling those--

Worcester: Yes, yes. Living out here in the country like I do, it's great. I like to think I'm close to the land. Just every day you see things out as you walk in the pasture. I walk out in the pasture every day and I just see different things. For instance, I've lived here since '63 on the same property, but every year I see something different as far as a new species of plant, or 60:00even some kind of insect, or a bird or something. It just never quits changing. That's like my work. It's going to keep evolving. I'm never going to get to a spot to where try to keep it the same because I don't really want to keep it the same.

A lot of times when I'll start forging a blade, I'll just purposefully do something to it to make a mistake. Then I have to work around that mistake to make it to something different. But if I don't make a mistake, sometimes I'm afraid it's going to turn out like the last one, and I don't want it to turn out like the last one. So I'll put a notch here, or I'll cut it off short here or something, or make a funny angle on it. Sometimes I think, "Wow, I've really messed this up. How am I going to fix this?" But it always lets your mind find new avenues to make something into a finished product.

Little Thunder: That is neat. Do you take photographs of every single knife that you do? Do you keep a photographic record? You don't?

Worcester: I don't. It's just too much trouble. (Laughs) It would've been nice, I guess. I couldn't tell you how many knives I've made, but when I see one that I've made, I can definitely say, "I've made that" because I've done that before. Somebody'll bring a knife back and say, "I wonder who made that," at a show and I'd say-- (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time that you get an idea?

Worcester: It's just pretty much if I get an idea about a piece, I'll just start forging on it and forge the blade out to that shape. If I've got particular colors in mind, a lot of times I'll see it before I ever start.

Little Thunder: You see it in your head. You're not writing anything down?

Worcester: No, I don't write anything down. I'll see it in my head and I'll go that process. Then a lot of times I'm just building, forging a blade and seeing what happens. It comes along and I say, "Hmm, this color would be neat." Then I'll go to sleep on it and I'll say, "Oh, I'm glad I didn't finish it yesterday because this color will be a lot better." (Laughter)

I've found that to leave one sitting overnight or a couple of days when I'm really not sure, is a pretty good idea because then I'll have a better idea of where I'm really sure what I want to do with it. When I'm not really sure about something it's kind of, "I don't know if I should do that or not." Then when I do finish a piece, I may not see exactly what I did with it, but I'll let it sit a couple of days and I'll look at it and I'll say, "I see something there I 63:00didn't know I put there. I didn't know why I did that, but that looks neat. I like that." A lot of times I make something and I'm really not sure was I conscious in what I was doing? (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That reminded me of a question, and now I'm trying to think about it. Do you work simultaneously on several or is it one at a time?

Worcester: One at a time.

Little Thunder: Do you just follow one all the way through?

Worcester: Yeah, I like doing one at a time and just taking my time with it and seeing how I can bring it along. I have done two or three at a time in the beginning when I was starting. I've found that I don't really like doing that at all because you just can't--I have to devote all my time to one piece and when it's done, move on to another one.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what do you think has been a turning point for you when you could've gone one way and you went another?

Worcester: I think, really, a turning point was when I discovered different materials and different colors with my blades and shapes even because I wasn't really sure if I should go into that area or not. I think that was a good turning point.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points in your career?

Worcester: Well, high points was definitely being inducted into the Hall of Fame. Being chosen Honorable One at Red Earth was fantastic and winning the Challenge Award on the piece in Santa Fe was really a nice award. Then I've had 65:00a lot of other first places out there, which I'm always happy--even a third or an honorable mention I'm happy to get--but it's nice when others recognize what you do.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points of your career?

Worcester: Oh, low points--I guess a low point was probably when they didn't know if they was going to let me in that show or not. (Laughter) As far as a low point, I've never really had any low points because it's--life's too exciting and every day's an adventure. I might have a low point a couple of hours or a day maybe, but then--it's kind of like getting bucked off of a horse. You just get back on and it's a new adventure, a new ride. Go for it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Is there anything we've forgotten or anything you'd like to add 66:00before we look at one of your knives?

Worcester: Oh, no. I think I've talked enough.

Little Thunder: Okay, we'll take a look at your knives.

Worcester: Okay.

Little Thunder: Okay, you want to tell us about this knife, Daniel?

Worcester: This is Stars and Stripes. I completed this last month. The handle was fashioned from old dominoes and old billiard balls. Hand-done firework decorates the top of the spine and goes all the way around the blade. The blade was forged from an old, found steel pickup coil spring. It has an old Indian Head nickel separating the blade and the handle. The red is from old dominoes and the blue is the billiard balls. It has white composite paper separating each piece.

Little Thunder: Beautiful. I noticed you have titles for your knives.

Worcester: Yes, I do like to title each piece. It makes it more unique.

Little Thunder: Okay. Here we're looking at another one.

Worcester: This is entitled Chameleon. I titled it that because the back is completely different than this. The back is red and orange. This knife's handle was fashioned from a combination of old billiard balls and old-found dominoes. The blade was forged by hand from an old-found coil spring taken off an abandoned old Model T. Functional firework motif decorates the spine of the blade with a nickel, Indian Head nickel, separating the blade from the handle.

Little Thunder: That's beautiful, too. We're looking at the other side here, as you said.

Worcester: Yes, yes, this is the reverse side of the Chameleon.

Little Thunder: Oh, those are gorgeous colors. This one's really different looking--the handle. You called it Four Red Moons?

Worcester: This is Four Red Moons and I named it for four red moons. The knife 68:00was forged by hand, by hammer and on the forge from an old Model T's coil. The handle was fashioned from bone with red dye. An old Indian Head nickel separates the blade from the handle.

The other side is pretty much the same, but it's separated into four pieces as far as the four different pieces of bone. I entitled it Four Red Moons simply because last year and this year the tetra blood moons were happening. I thought, "Oh that's neat, four blood moons. I'm going to call this Four Red Moons."

Little Thunder: That is beautiful. How about this one?

Worcester: This is Purple Sky. Its knife blade was forged by hand from an old-found pickup's coil spring. The handle was fashioned from old billiard balls. Firework decorates the spine of the blade and travels completely around the handle. An old Indian Head nickel separates the blade from the handle also.

To get all those purple colors, I might add, is very difficult from billiard balls because the outside of the billiard balls aren't always what they look like on the inside. It depends on the environment they were in--

Little Thunder: Oh, wow.

Worcester: --as far as cigarette smoke, how much light was coming in, but to get the dark purple is very, very rare I found out. Then the Purple Sky--the name on that was simply because I was listening to a Hank Williams song and "a falling star lights up a purple sky." I thought, "Wow, that's neat. I like the way that sounds." So I named him Purple Sky.

Little Thunder: That's a great title. Well, thank you so much for your--maybe let's look that that last one that has the--

Worcester: Oh okay, the one out?

Little Thunder: Yeah, the one that's out. That you talked about.

Worcester: Okay, this is the one I just finished actually. It's forged from old coil steel of a truck spring. It's got an orange billiard ball, black dominoes, and red dominoes. It's a double-edged piece. The design on it was just kind of whimsical, just to put different shapes in it. The other side is pretty much the same with white, with laminated paper as far as filling in-between.

Little Thunder: It does have a nice, whimsical feeling. All right, well thank you for your time today.

Worcester: Okay, I've got two more. You want to see?

Little Thunder: Sure. (Laughter) Oh yeah, those are so nice. Different.

Worcester: This is my Woodpecker. Yeah, that's Woodpecker. As far as the design, old billiard ball, plus dominoes. It's very functional as far as where your fingers fit.

Little Thunder: Right, that is gorgeous. I see where the ridges are. Wonderful.

Worcester: That was kind of a whimsical piece. This piece here is Arizona Ironwood. I like to use wood as far as being a very, very pretty-type wood, which is Arizona ironwood. Sometimes I like to put it with a different type of blade. This blade has firework going all the way around the blade and the handle. It's just a different-type-shaped piece, very functional. I've had 72:00people that like maybe this type of blade as far as cheese knives.

Little Thunder: I was going to say you can use that in the kitchen, it looks like. Easy to manipulate.

Worcester: Yes, yes very much could.

Little Thunder: Okay, I really appreciate your time today.

Worcester: You're very welcome. I'm glad you came.

------- End of interview -------