Oral history interview with Mary Horsechief Henderson

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson Little-Thunder. Today is Friday, April 3, 2015, and I'm interviewing Mary Horsechief Henderson for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at your home in Welling, Mary. You're Cherokee and Pawnee, and you come from a family of artists. Your mother is one of the early Cherokee women painters, and you have picked up painting as well as cultural items. You've won multiple awards at shows like The Trail of Tears and Cherokee National Holiday Show. You've collaborated on paintings with your family while working full time for Cherokee Nation Behavioral Health. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Henderson: All right.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Henderson: I was born in Dallas, Texas, and I actually grew up in Muskogee, Oklahoma. It's where we ended up. My parents, they met at Bacone [College] back 1:00in the '50s. They were a part of that exodus to the big cities for jobs. My dad and his brother took their families down to Dallas, and that's where they found jobs and were working. We came back, but my uncle remained down there. In fact, his family is still down there. Yeah, I grew up in Muskogee. We ended up there. I don't know, maybe it's the connection to Bacone, but that's where we ended up.

Little Thunder: Where were you in the family in terms of brothers and sisters?

Henderson: I'm the second born, so I'm the second oldest. My older brother, Sam, we're two years apart. My younger brothers are six years younger than me. Six and seven I think, so they were like the second batch. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Your dad was a metalsmith, and I know you lost him fairly young, but do you have memories of him doing metalwork at the house?

Henderson: No, my dad--who told you he was a metalsmith?

Little Thunder: I thought your mom did. He worked with silver and jewelry.

Henderson: Oh, he did some jewelry. He wasn't like a metalsmith jewelry type person--

Little Thunder: Right.

Henderson: --more like findings-type what they would call now. He would make chokers and other types of necklaces like that. Basically, he was just trying to put some things together that would help him make a little money and give him something to do. My dad was a pretty great person. I don't know how many people 3:00have told me that over the years. He was a spectacular athlete. Him and my Uncle Nat were All-Staters at Pawnee.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Henderson: He went to Bacone to play football and basketball, which he did. He would've been a coach. He was going to school to be a coach. He had issues with alcohol. Bad enough that it killed him. He died of cirrhosis of the liver at a very young age. He was thirty-nine. He tried and tried over a period of years to stop.

There's a lot of different ways of doing that over the years that people have used, including arts and crafts, and types of things like that. That was one of the things, I think, that he picked up that he liked doing. He would make, like I said, chokers and necklaces and things and sell them. I think I might even 4:00have one or two of those left. I know my mom does, but mainly he was just, like I said, a spectacular person that actually drew people to him. It's what it seemed like to me when people have come up and told me about him. I knew him because I was a little older than Dan and them. Yeah, he was a unique human being, I think.

Little Thunder: What are your memories of your mother working on art?

Henderson: Well, I remember as a little kid, her drawing and painting. She would draw us and paint us, and use us as her figures in her paintings. I remember--some of my earliest memories are going to school with her at TU 5:00[University of Tulsa]. I have a memory of walking under, I must have been about three or four, because I remember walking under the big wooden tables. They had them big long wooden working tables in the pottery room. I remember walking under those tables and every now and then I would reach up and get something and look at it, and I would put it back. (Laughter) Can you imagine have a three-year old in the pottery room? Which is crazy.

I don't know how old I was, but I imagine I was about that age because mom was in school pretty much all the time when I was growing up. I really liked it. I really liked going to school with her and they say I was a really good kid, so it was no burden, I think. We would have lunch together. To this day, Bean and Bacon Campbell Soup is my favorite because that's what we would take with us. 6:00(Laughter) It's the craziest thing. Everybody thinks I'm crazy because it's so unhealthy. Vienna sausage sandwiches with mustard, not bologna, although I do like bologna. Not bologna. It's because of that, going to school with my mom. When I started doing it and picking things up, and going to school, and taking classes, and picking up techniques and stuff, it was no big deal because this is what we do.

Little Thunder: You'd been observing it.

Henderson: Yes, and I went to--of course, there's all kinds of stories about art shows and things, too. I always remember my mom painting and drawing, and she did all of that while raising four children, too.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Henderson: I was very fortunate that I had several grandfathers on my Pawnee side. I try to look at it that way because on my mom's side, my grandpa died when, from World War II, the mustard gas poisoning, when she was really young. I never knew him. I had my grandmother who is of English descent and she was something else. She was from her own period of time, believe me. Had no interest in anything Native American, had no interest in anything artistic, but she did teach me about trees and flowers.

We were very close because she bonded with me when I was a baby. I was the only one she bonded with. The rest of the boys never could understand why we were so close because my grandmother was just so different, my white grandmother. My other grandmother, Ekah, her name was Sophie Butler. Her and my blood grandfather, Hugh Horsechief, had separated by the time I knew them. He was blind and had gotten blinded from an accident, but he was a member of the Native American Church. I remember him always singing all the time. He'd just sing all the time. He'd sit in his room and shake his rattle and he would just sing all the time, or he'd be listening to music all the time. I've heard that he did compose some songs. I don't know what those songs are, but because of him, I've 9:00always heard, too, that if we ever wanted to participate more in the Native American Church, that that way's been made for us.

My grandmother, on the other hand, was a nurse at the IHS [Indian Health Service] Hospital in Pawnee. Just visits with her. I didn't get to spend a lot of time with her, but she would patiently answer our questions. Every now and then, we would ask her things. We asked her about which band were we and she always told us. We're all four because grandpa was two and she was two. She never really talked about Pawnee stuff or anything like that, so I don't know if it was because we didn't spend that much time with her or if she didn't think it was important or from that generation that didn't think that those type of 10:00things were important.

Just being around her and being with her taught me more about being Pawnee than, I think, anything like that. She did like to go to pow wows a lot and, oh, she loved wrestling. She was an avid wrestler fan and she would be watching it all the time. (Laughter) She loved wrestling. She also was probably the one that taught me, first thing you do when somebody walks in the door, you ask them, "Did you eat?" She always had brown beans on the stove, and she would cook. No matter what time of the day or night that we showed up at her house, unannounced, it would be like, "Did you eat yet?" Then she would commence to start cooking for us. That's how my dad grew up.

My grandpas, though, Hugh Horsechief was my blood grandpa. He used to call me "Braids" because he would hold my braids. He would teach us a couple of words and he would always fan us off. He also taught me that. He would always fan us off every time we would come visit with the cedar and fans. He told me, one time me and my cousin, Ginger, got scared because we thought there was a ghost in the house or something. It was bothering us. He told us--he told me, and I don't know why, but I always remember it and it's something I've passed onto people, that you don't never have to be afraid. The Creator is always with you and the Creator gave us these things to protect us with. If something's bothering you, or you hear something, you tell them that they're not supposed to be here. You 12:00call on the power of the Creator to make them go away and they will.

I've used that in my life, and I've talked to other people when they've gone through something similar like that. I say, "This is what my grandpa always told me and it's always worked for me." Of course, there's a lot more to it than that, but he's the one that taught me how to fan somebody off, and I do that with my nieces and nephews. I fan them off. I haven't done it in a little while, but yeah, I used to do it every time before they would go back to school and talk to them a little bit about that.

Little Thunder: Growing up in this kind of creative environment, what are some memories, early encounters with Native art that stand out for you?

Henderson: Well, like I was telling you, I went to school with my mom when I was 13:00in pre-school, to college. I remember the smell, the smell of linseed oil and oils and what an art room smells like, what a pottery studio smells like. I remember those smells and how wonderful I thought it was to have all of those supplies and things to just make stuff with. The encouragement, I got a lot of really good encouragement. People--

Little Thunder: Did you draw while you were there sometimes, or make something? A pot or something?

Henderson: Yeah, I made a pinch pot at TU and they fired it for me. They were very encouraging. I've always had nothing but encouragement. I have friends that are in families that are way more, I shouldn't say more dysfunctional, because we're pretty dysfunctional. (Laughs) I should say they never got any 14:00encouragement at all from their families. In fact, they were pretty much told, "That's stupid, ugly. What are you doing?" Or "You can't do that." I've been very fortunate all my life. I was always encouraged. By teachers, by other people, by other artists. As far as art, my very first memories are even going to Philbrook and running through that museum outside in the gardens.

Little Thunder: To the Indian Annual? During the show?

Henderson: Yeah, in the gardens. I, to this day, I still have a favorite room in there and a favorite painting.

Little Thunder: What is it?

Henderson: It's The [Little] Shepherdess.

Little Thunder: How cool.

Henderson: I love that painting.

Little Thunder: Yeah, I think I know which one it is. (Laughter)

Henderson: Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful. My favorite room is the--I don't know what they call it. It's the one with the glass floor.

Little Thunder: Right. It used to be a dancing room.

Henderson: Yeah, I love that room, and it had fountains. When I was a kid, the 15:00fountains actually worked, and it was just so wonderful. It was on the other end of the museum, too, so they always had the Annual at the other end and all of the people and everything, so I could go over there and get some peace because I always had to take care of the little ones. Oh my god, the Williamses, too. David Williams's kids, James and John. Yeah, and the others. Talk about terrorizing Philbrook. Yes, we did.

Little Thunder: You were kind of in charge of the younger kids?

Henderson: Well, no, there's no way I was in charge. You couldn't be in charge. I mean, yeah, I was older and maybe me and my brother, Sam, were kind of intended to be in charge, but there's no being in charge of all of those kids. 16:00They're just--can you imagine? Then we would go back in there and steal cookies, and punch, and stuff, because they would have the hors d'oeuvres and things.

Little Thunder: How about your art experiences in elementary school or middle school?

Henderson: Once again, I was very fortunate. I actually did go to Head Start because my mother taught Head Start. I did go to Head Start--

Little Thunder: And this was in Muskogee at that point?

Henderson: Yes, yes. Even like at Franklin Elementary, I had an art teacher, Mrs. Boggs. I found out when I was an adult that she was a relative, actually. My first day of school--actually, I went to Tony Goetz [Elementary School]. We lived on the east side when I was in first grade. My very first day of school, I wasn't terrified. A lot of people say they have horrible experiences with their 17:00children the first day, but I remember going in a classroom and they gave us these big, beautiful pieces of big manila paper. They were huge. They ran off the table it was so big--and these beautiful, big crayons. The big ones for little kids. They were beautiful.

She had us draw the letter A. Then she took us through, and we had to put little eyes and we made a little Dutch girl with a little Dutch hat. I was, of course, going to town, I just thought this is the most wonderful thing. (Laughter) This is so wonderful, this paper and this--I just like materials, I guess. Anyway, I started shading and coloring because it was so much fun. She comes over and she's walking along, like teachers do, walking along the desks. She comes over 18:00and looks at mine and she didn't say anything. She grabbed the paper and she jerked me up and she said, "Come with me."

I thought I was in trouble. I was like, "Ah." Like I said, I wasn't one of those kids that was terrified and would cry and all that stuff. I just went with her and I thought, "What could I have done? I didn't do nothing wrong." I went with her and she took me to this other classroom and told this teacher, she said, "Look at this. Look at this." I was like, "What did I do wrong?" I'm sitting there looking at both of those teachers and neither one of them are saying anything to me. They're just talking to each other and I'm standing there going, "What's going on?"

They basically were, I guess, amazed by the picture, whatever, and from that day 19:00forward, I got all the art supplies I wanted. I got all the paper. In fact, I remember--well, we changed schools. We moved to the west side, we actually bought a house, big house. I went to Franklin and we had an art teacher there. I always had--they would move me to another table. I always had another table in some other room that was bigger because they always had me doing all kinds of projects.

Little Thunder: They recognized your talent right away. How about by the time you're in high school, have you sold any artwork yet? Are you entering any shows?

Henderson: Yeah, by the time I got to high school, I already had one at Philbrook.

Little Thunder: Okay, so you entered the children's--

Henderson: Yeah, I entered the Annual Show. I don't know if it was--I don't remember them having a student show.

Little Thunder: --student division.

Henderson: They might have had a division, I don't know. I remember they had a Purchase Award and they bought my piece.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Henderson: It's still there. They hang it every now and then.

Little Thunder: How cool, and you were what age?

Henderson: It was about '75--because the piece was about 1976. It was about the bicentennial. I would've been about fourteen, thirteen or fourteen. Something like that.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Henderson: When they said I won the Purchase Award I was like, "Oh, what does that mean? Money?" They said that what it means is they're going to buy your piece. I go, "So that's all I get is they're just going to buy my piece?" They're like, "Yeah." That's pretty much it. I never really thought that much of it until I went to college and that's when they were doing that retrospective 21:00about their collection. They were interviewing people and they were creating a book. I'd gotten interviewed and told them the story about Philbrook and everything. Told them about that and they were going to show some of the art. I was included in the Bacone bunch, even though when I did the piece I wasn't in school out there.

My professor, we had to do these visits when I was in college. It was important to go to a museum and to write a piece. They gave us a day off to go do that. Sometimes we would all go together. Professor R. C. Koontz was with us. Somehow 22:00a bunch of us all went down there at the same time. We were at Philbrook, and we were there to see the Thomas Moran exhibit. I mean, that was what I was going to write my piece on and--

Little Thunder: Was it Philbrook or Gilcrease?

Henderson: It was Philbrook.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. They had the Morans there.

Henderson: Yeah, this was in the '90s, during this time. One of my friends comes running up and just screaming at me in the museum going, "You didn't tell me you had a piece down here." I was like, "They have that up?" I kind of knew they were going to do it, but I didn't know when. Mr. Koontz just happens to be right there. Of course, he hears it and he goes, "You have a piece in Philbrook?" I go, "Yes, yes I do." (Laughs) You should've seen the shock on his face. Then he 23:00started smiling and he was just so excited. I thought, "Okay, when I was in school, the thing I wanted to do when I went back was I wanted to make straight As.

Little Thunder: You were at Northeastern at this point?

Henderson: Yes, I wanted to make straight As because I wanted to get scholarships to finish. The only way that I could bring my grade point up was to get the best grade possible, so I had this system that I would use. I mean, I wouldn't suck up too much, but there's things that you can do to make yourself appear more positive. When an instructor is trying to decide whether you're going to be that point or so off or whatever, they're going to give it to you if you make the effort. That had been my mindset. (Laughs) When he gets all excited I'm going, I'm looking at him, I go, "Yes. Yes, and we should go see it." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You did get a small check because they made a Purchase Award right? They bought it from you.

Henderson: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay. What happened the first time you went to college? Did you just get discouraged?

Henderson: The first time I went to college I was--let me just say, I went early for one thing. I was only seventeen. I thought I knew pretty much everything. I thought I had it all figured out. I went to OU for a year, and I enjoyed the art program there. I was totally lost. I remember being totally lost, but there were several older students that helped me out in that way. Their style at the time, even though I was taking basic classes, was totally foreign to anything that I 25:00had ever experienced. I was just trying to make my way, you know, and explore it. It was pretty challenging, actually.

I did a lot of partying up there. I missed, by one credit, so they put me on academic probation. I was playing softball. I went up there to play softball and I didn't make the team. I got the last cut. I got cut. I could've came back and probably made it, but I didn't have the confidence to do that. If I knew then what I know now, or if I'd had any more support that way, I probably would have--if my dad had been there, probably. He might have supported me. I don't know. I decided to leave there and go to Bacone and play ball there and go to 26:00school, which was the last place I wanted to go.

Little Thunder: Why?

Henderson: Well, it was back home and at the time I just wanted to leave there. You know, that's what a lot of kids do. They just want to get out of town, get as far away as possible. (Laughs) I had felt like I had failed when I went back there, but I made some good friendships there--

Little Thunder: Who was teaching at the time?

Henderson: Dick West.

Little Thunder: Okay, wow.

Henderson: Dick West was there. He was back, teaching a couple of classes. Of course, Ruthe [Blalock Jones], and I think Janet Smith was doing an internship there, too. I got to take some classes under Dick West. I remembered him from my childhood because we used to sit in the back of the church at Bacone and we'd 27:00draw pictures on the programs and basically not do a whole lot of listening. He had this deep voice and he couldn't whisper (Laughter), but he was always so nice to us. Like I said, I've never felt afraid around him, I never felt uncomfortable. He was always so nice to us. His hands, I swear to god, they were this big. One hand was about that big, that big, but he would draw, and I would draw something and he would draw something. God, I wish I had some of those. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Was he drawing on your drawing kind of? You were drawing together?

Henderson: Yeah, we would draw stuff together.

Little Thunder: Oh, that is great, that is great. (Laughter) You eventually finished your degree at Northeastern, is that right? Is that where you got your--.

Henderson: Yeah.

Little Thunder: A bachelor's in--

Henderson: Fine art. Bachelor's in Fine Art with a minor in education and a minor in Native American studies, because I was going to do education. I was going to be a teacher and I didn't want to be a teacher. They got so mad at me when I said, "I'm not going to finish. I just know this isn't what I want to do." I just told them, "I'm not going to finish my--" I was this close, too. I mean, all I had to do was get the last internship.

I said, "I know this is not what I want to do. I know I should finish it, but is there something else?" And they said I had to have a minor to graduate. I said, "I've got all kinds of hours in there, isn't there something else?" They started looking and they said, "Oh yeah, Native American studies. You can take one class 29:00and you're pretty much done it." I'd taken a lot of Native American classes over the years, so I have a minor in Native American studies.

Little Thunder: Your mom had mentioned that she really hoped none of her children would turn out to be artists because she knew how hard the path was.

Henderson: Yes. (Laughs) Yes, and we all got degrees in it. (Laughter) Except for David, who didn't finish his degree. He's so close. Yeah, and I'm the same way now. I have become my mother. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You tell young people, don't look at art as a full-time living?

Henderson: No. Yeah, I do tell them that. Even when I was in school--when I went back to school I was an older student--

Little Thunder: How old were you? Thirties?

Henderson: I was in my early forties. I was in my early forties, like forty-one, forty-two. I was an older student and everybody thought I was so great. I'm like, "You listen to the instructor give the instructions. You try your best to do what they say. You're here to learn their technique. You're not here to do your own thing. If you're going to do your own thing, then just go out and do it.

That's what so many art students have such a hard time with when they get to college because it's tough. You got to do what they say. That's what I would do, and I worked hard at it because I was really wanting those As too, remember?

Little Thunder: Right.

Henderson: They were just like, "Oh, Mary you're so great. You do everything so wonder--you're just so awesome. You're such an awesome artist. Are you doing this now? Are you going to do this when you get out?" I would just look at them.

Unfortunately, it's so sad, but I would just say, "You know what, I'm a drop in the bucket. I can tell you right now, I'm a drop in the bucket. Yes, probably if I devoted myself full time to this and actually worked, and worked, and worked, I might actually produce something that might have an impact somewhere. That doesn't mean I'm going to be able to make a living at it."

I mean, I was very real with them. "If you're looking at trying to support your family that you're going to have, because you will have one, you better be looking at something, and you're going to be doing this on the side. If you are fortunate enough to pick up something or if you don't think you're this fabulous 32:00and you still really live and breathe art and you want to do it, you better find something that you can do better than everybody else like photography, the computer graphics, whatever, and then you could probably make a living at it. Yeah, you better be thinking about something else."

It's not a failure to be a teacher. It's not a failure to teach others and encourage people to learn and do as much as they can. It's not because you can't do art that you become a teacher. It's very, very tough.

Little Thunder: How did you end up getting into behavioral health?

Henderson: Like I told you, when I was younger, I partied a lot. I developed an 33:00addiction to alcohol and drugs to the point where I didn't think I could do anything. I dropped out of school, and I couldn't hold a job. I was horrible at like Burger King and Arby's type of things. No matter how hard I tried, I just really couldn't do that very well. It was difficult for me to go to work because of my addictions and everything that goes with it.

What I did was I got sober in Muskogee. Went to Monarch, started trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. I started working there. Actually, they hired me, and I got recruited from there to go to this new treatment center 34:00called Jack Brown at the Cherokee Nation by Richard Allen and my husband, Jim Henderson, who was going to be a counselor there. That's when I came to Tahlequah, and that was in 1989. I went to work with Jack Brown at the treatment center there as a technician and worked with the kids.

I was there for about six months when I got recruited to go to a new drug abuse prevention program working with kids, which I did. It was a grant. I did that and I bounced from grant, to grant, to grant. Every time one would end, another one would appear. I've been very fortunate. I really haven't had to search for work, but I've been recruited. Every time they would recruit they would say, "We're going to give you all this money. This is what your salary is going to 35:00be." I would tell them, "I've got to go back to school. I don't have time to do all this." It was always these grants that had these massive amounts of things that they wanted you to do. (Laughs) It was just crazy how much they wanted you to do. They're like, "You're the only one that can do it." I'm like, "Well, okay."

Then once I got in there I wouldn't get the pay because I didn't have the degree. This happened to me about three or four times, and finally I just told them at the end of another grant, I said, "I'm going back to school." So I did. I retired early. Drew up my retirement and used that to go to school. It wasn't much, but I drew out some. That was the mid-'90s. When I got out of school, I 36:00was going to go get my master's. I went and visited TU, OU, and Arkansas, and applied to all of them (god, I loved OU). Mary Jo Watson, she gave me a tour. We had met before, I had asked her to. We were judges for some JOM art show. That's how we'd met.We would just get so excited about Indian art, you know. She gave me the most wonderful tour there, and they had just got a collection in, too, that hadn't all been identified. I got to go through there and help identify some pieces that weren't signed, and talk about them, and that was kind of cool. She really wanted me to go to school there. She even took me downstairs and I got to see the Pollocks.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow.

Henderson: God, it was awesome. These big, giant storage area--it was beautiful. I really wanted to go, but I was married and I was going to have a baby and that wasn't going to happen. I stayed here and I did get a raise, got a job. I became a customer service rep[resentative] for the Housing Authority. I did that for a little while until the Housing Authority fell apart and started laying people off. When they started laying people off, I ended up being one of them. You don't really need a customer service rep[resentative] if you're going to lay people off.

I asked a friends of mine, who had been in community work, if he still--he always wanted me to come work for him. I said, "You can't afford me." (Laughter) 38:00I said, "You know how you was always wanting me to come work for you? Why don't we make that happen?" He did. His name was Marvin Jones and he brought me back over from Housing Authority to the Nation.

He put me in charge, assigned me to the methamphetamine program. We were in the middle of a meth crisis, and we were trying to figure out what we could do to eradicate meth in five years in the Cherokee Nation. That set me on the path with the folks that I work with now. That's when we started our community work, working with communities to help them build plans and training, to take a look 39:00at their local conditions and data, and build strategies that attack those. It's much more than brochures and posters. Brochures and posters are still a part of it. I've been doing that for--god, seems like forever. I'm going to continue to do it for a few more years and then I'm going to do this.

Little Thunder: Paint full time.

Henderson: I can't wait.

Little Thunder: We'll get to that in a minute. Were you able to use your art skills, either painting or making cultural items? Were you using any of that when you were working in the counseling fields, or was that just something that you were doing on the side as you could?

Henderson: Oh yeah, I've been fortunate that I've been able to do stuff creatively with work for forever. I mean when I got recruited--when I was at 40:00Jack Brown--I would work with the kids and do beadwork and stuff with them, too. A little bit of art therapy. I know enough about art therapy, you have to be qualified to do it, but we would do a little bit of stuff. Then when these drug abuse prevention programs, when I worked with these kids in the communities, we did a lot of art. I've taught a lot of beadwork. At one point, I was even helping at Sequoyah High School in the dorms with some kids after school. They had this thing called a-- (god, what was it called?) where they would have an elder come in and work with them and that was Betty Smith, who is a national treasure. I would do beadwork with them.

Now in the prevention that I'm doing now, it's more of a science. There's a lot 41:00of creativity that goes in with developing strategies that's going to affect a local condition. Like for instance, we're developing a public information campaign for Cherokee County and for Wagner County. Our Cherokee County public information campaign, it's to address binge drinking. We're going to use Bigfoot as our spokesperson like Smokey the Bear.

Little Thunder: Yeah, good idea.

Henderson: There's a lot of materials that we've had to go through to try and develop the messages. We know that a poster is not going to make somebody stop binge drinking. We know that, but it's just a little part of an overall plan. 42:00With a bunch of strategies altogether, maybe we can start effecting some change. It takes a while, it takes--sometimes it takes a long time. Sometimes these changes can happened pretty quickly, like with policies and stuff, but we're coupling this with policy and enforcement, and some other things. We're kind of excited about Bigfoot. We're going to throw in the ENDUI program, too, so there's always opportunities to make posters and just to come up with ideas.

Little Thunder: Right, right. Now you've taught a couple of moccasin workshops, I thought, for the Heritage Center or was it--.

Henderson: I did. I did that with the Heritage Center, and then here lately, I've been doing a lot of them with Cultural Tourism, Cherokee Nation Cultural Tourism.

Little Thunder: What was the biggest challenge the first time you taught a workshop?

Henderson: Wow, the first time. I don't remember the first time. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've been doing it so long. Are you able to use it to kind of advance your own work, too?

Henderson: Probably the biggest challenge is trying to meet people where they're at, and then develop a way or a language or somehow to get them to the endpoint, you know. I mean that's what teaching is all about is translating the material, so that they get an understanding and actually get the end result that they want, hopefully. Have you ever made a basket? Okay, well, you should make a basket. You should make a Cherokee basket. Next time you get a chance, you need to do that because that's one of the examples I use. Most people that have taken my class have done that. Baskets is big around here.

Your first basket that you make doesn't usually turn out the way you envision it because it's hard to make them symmetrical. (Laughter) There's things wrong with it, the first basket. The next one you make, you correct some of that stuff, and the next one you correct, and eventually, if you work at it and you have enough interest or you like it, you could probably make some pretty nice stuff. But it takes a little practice and effort. I tell people when they take my class, I say, "We're going to be working on this for about four hours, and normally everybody will maybe finish one moccasin."

Not because everybody is slow, but because we're going to learn the process and then you're going to have this little bit of time to do it. The hardest part is 45:00a lot of people take the class and they've never tied a knot before, or threaded a needle. We have to go from that. Some people that actually make things, they will finish both of them. I usually have one in every class, usually.

Little Thunder: That'll finish two--a pair.

Henderson: Yeah, they'll finish both of them. They may not fit them perfectly, they might have to make adjustments to them. I think one time, my friend made them, actually, one of the last classes, she finished both of them and they fit her perfectly. They looked good.

Little Thunder: That's great.

Henderson: Yeah.

Little Thunder: The ones that--do you think they finish the other one? A lot of the people who take the class or do they--.

Henderson: That's what they say they do.

Little Thunder: They say they do?

Henderson: Yeah, I run into people all the time. I run into people all the time. 46:00I was at the casino the other night and this girl just comes walking up to me. I didn't have any idea who she was. She's like, "When are you going to have another class?" I look at her and I said, "I don't know, it depends." She was saying that she really wanted to take it. I was like, "Have you had one before? Have you made moccasins?" She goes, "No, so we're really interested." "Okay." People recognize me or they know who I am because I'm slipping that card in the machine or something. I mean, I can understand that there, but I'll be Wal-Mart and people will come up. They go, "When are you going to have another class?"

Now that I have a little more time (I don't have a lot of time), but I'm not taking care of my husband so I think I'm going to start scheduling some classes. It's difficult, probably, because it's expensive. You have to buy hides. 47:00Usually, you want to have about twenty people.

The more people you have, the more likely you're going to get a little bit of a profit, but you're not going to get a lot for the amount of effort that you're putting in there. (Laughter) You want to have about twenty people, that's pretty much max. Ideally, eight or ten would be good, but I've gotten to where they just pack them there now. One time I did thirty-five, and I was just, "We can't do this anymore. You guys are killing me."

Little Thunder: That's too many.

Henderson: I'm not whining because it's hard on me, I'm whining because they're not getting the individual attention that they need. I started developing--I've got handouts that has instructions, step-by-step. I did that the first time. One 48:00time I did photographs that I'd taken at Smithsonian. I get to go up there, visit my friend--

Little Thunder: You didn't go on a fellowship did you? Or did you just go for a trip?

Henderson: No. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Okay, great.

Henderson: We went on a work trip. Every year, I go to the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America forum in DC. A few years ago my best friend, Lisa Trice Turtle, and I were going. That was right after, maybe a year or so after Dennis Zotigh had moved up there. He had just finished Oklahoma's Historical Museum. She said, "We should call Dennis and he can give us a private tour." I said, "Okay." She set it up. She contacted him, she emailed him or whatever. He says, 49:00"Yeah, you guys come on out." We jumped on the metro, their subway train, whatever, and went all the way to the end in Suitland, Maryland. It was snow. There was snow on the ground, about a foot. We got off at the end, and of course, we didn't know anything. What I know now after going there several times, is that they have main stations that you can get off and actually get a cab. (Laughter) We didn't know. We were going all the way to the end and we'll just walk. It's only a couple of blocks. A couple of city blocks in foot-deep snow is difficult. We did manage to get a cab after we started walking. It was cars going everywhere, too. A cab actually felt sorry for us and pulled up and said, "Do you all want a ride?" Said, "Yes." He took us literally two blocks and 50:00we were there. He says, "Are you sure this is where?" I said, "Yeah, this is it."

It's a bunker where they store everything. It's their cultural--it was brand new then. They had brought the collections in because they had them stored everywhere, they said. It's all temperature controlled. They had these big giant shelves that move when you push a button, and they have drawers in them, a whole bunch of them. They showed us the totem poles that were in Brooklyn. They'd been stored in an old warehouse in Brooklyn, and that they had brought them in--and the seal jackets. It was just wonderful.

Oh, and the repatriation room, where tribes can come in and they can do what 51:00they need to do with the bundles (it was just so neat), and where they restore things and clean things, and all the equipment. At the time they were cleaning Geronimo's robe. It was a robe that he had, which was kind of cool. He took me--he knew directly what we wanted to see. We wanted to see all the Cherokee stuff, and then he said, "I'm going to take you over to see the Pawnee stuff," because he's Pawnee, too." I said, "Okay," but I wanted to see the moccasins. I wanted to see anything anyway.

He explained to us that they have everything set up where known enemies aren't right next to each other. The artifacts, the things, they've got everything set 52:00up that way to create more of a peaceful environ-ment, too, there. It's not just temperature controlled and all that, but they really thought that stuff out. They let us touch everything. I said, "Well, you need to give me some gloves or something." He said, "This is our stuff." The attitude has changed even. "This is ours, this is the people's. What you're doing here is what we want--people to come, and look, and examine."

Little Thunder: Were there any surprises with the Cherokee moccasins or the Pawnee cultural items?

Henderson: I didn't get to look a whole lot at the Pawnee stuff. I was surprised 53:00that they didn't have more. There were several jackets for the Cherokees, which were really cool, several deer jackets. It was really cool to see the handmade buttons. The moccasins, what I really liked about it was that they weren't all made the same way. They were obviously made by different people. Of course, everybody had their own way of kind of doing stuff. Some of them were so stiff. Of course, I couldn't turn them inside out or anything, and some of them had soles that were put on, after. Which makes sense because they're not--everybody that wears Cherokee moccasins, if they wear them for any reason for very long, 54:00they're going to have blowouts. If you wear Plains moccasins and you dance, or whatever, you're going to have some blowouts.

You could see the mending and you could see where they'd put another sole on one pair. So that's what I really liked about it. I felt more confident with the way I was taught how to do it. It's different from like Martha Berry and some other people. I had tried to do just the plain center seam moccasin. I can do it, but for the Miss Cherokee that I did that for, I had to mend those about five times because she kept blowing them out.

What I discovered was the pucker-toe, where you gather up the toe, is much more durable and I've never had to mend them. I've never had to mend one of them. Of course, I make sure the knots and everything are pretty durable. If you don't do 55:00it right, of course they're going to blow out, but the center-seam ones--I don't think they're for everyday use. That was kind of cool. Then you can understand. Once I saw those, I could understand. I'd like to go back and reexamine them--but maybe someday.

Little Thunder: You and your mom collaborated on, I think, one of your first casino commissions maybe?

Henderson: That was for the clinic.

Little Thunder: Oh, for the clinic. I'm sorry. Can you talk about that collaboration a bit? Had you ever done a big painting with your mom like that?

Henderson: No, we had never done that before. It just kind of happened because-- 56:00I don't really know, let me think about it. They had this call for art, and I wanted my mom to be a part of it. For one thing, one of the ideas that I'd had, it was going to include one of our relatives at the [Cherokee Female] Seminary.

Little Thunder: Oh, a depiction of a Cherokee--.

Henderson: Yeah, and some of it had a lot--oh yeah, it was our great-great-grandfather, John Thompson. The letters and all that. They were big, they were really big pieces. When we were talking about it, I just told her, "We need to all work together on this. That way we can get it done. Otherwise, we'll never get it done."

Little Thunder: Were they eight [feet] by 12 [feet], or--.

Henderson: God, I don't remember. They were huge. They were big, really big, so 57:00we did all work together. In fact, I think Daniel is the one that stretched them. Of course, we all adjusted them and stuff, and we worked on the designs. We all worked on the designs and the research and everything. We had a little bit longer to do that with, but they turned out really nice.

That was the first time I'd ever worked in oil. We did one in oil and a couple of them in acrylic. I look at that painting now and I think, yeah, that person that did that in oil--I did it like I was painting in acrylic. It's very brushy and there's a lot of--but that's where I was at, at the time. I like it. It's alright. I personally never get to the point where I can do what I see up here. 58:00It just kind of develops and then it ends up being something.

Little Thunder: Now recently you answered a call, I think, for the clinic at Stillwell? Is that what you told me? You ended up doing a piece?

Henderson: Yeah.

Little Thunder: What did you do for them?

Henderson: The story of the strawberries. They called us last month, Elizabeth Tunes called us and said they had already done the family collaboration with another family at another clinic, I think that was the Kingfisher family, and would we be interested? In fact, I think she called Mom first, and Mom told her that she needed to talk to me.

I talked to her because--well, Daniel and I both have worked with Elizabeth. We both know her and everything. When she proposed it, she said, "We only got like a month." But the sizes, they were only sixteen by twenty [inches]. They're not 59:00very big. I said, "Oh yeah, that's no problem. We'll get it done. Yeah, we'd like to do it." It just seemed like all hell broke loose after that. We had to go to Dallas one weekend. I wanted all of my brothers to be a part of this. David doesn't paint, but my other brother Sam--and both of us work, and it's right in the middle of the track season. He's a track coach and it's just--

Little Thunder: You took a canvas down there to Dallas?

Henderson: No, at that point we hadn't even met and talked about it.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. Got you.

Henderson: We had talked on the phone a couple of times, but we were all going to get together that weekend and work out some sketches, and actually communicate with each other on who was going to do what. (Laughter) We hadn't even done that. Then all of a sudden my uncle died, and we had to go down to Dallas.

All of us went, except for Sam. Sam had to work. Daniel drew out those sketches. I told him, I said, "Just do it. It's going to take us forever if we wait. Just do it." He was right in the backseat and he drew out those sketches when we were in that Dallas traffic. Oh my god, that horrible traffic. Then we stopped and he showed them to me and I said, "Oh, those'll work. Those'll work. Yeah, let's do it."

Mom said, "I can fix the canvases." I said, "Okay, we'll do that." I said, "When I get back to work, I'll pick mine up sometime." That's when we also decided that we would all be working on separate canvases. The last collaboration that we did, the big ones, we actually did all of us work on different pieces of each 61:00can[vas]. I did have one that I did most of it on. I designed all of them, but the one that has the chunkey player on it, I did almost all of that. Of course, we would just look at them and kind of critique a little bit and try to make them better. That is at the casino. We did do another collaboration at the casino, at the Hard Rock.

Little Thunder: Okay, at the Hard Rock?

Henderson: Yes, Daniel did the one with the turkey that's in a boardroom somewhere. Mom helped with the story of the first fire. She beaded the spider. There's a spider about this big in the middle of it. I did the design. There's 62:00an owl flying because you know, owl said, "I'll go get it," and was unsuccessful. Then there's a big medicine wheel in it, one of those Southeastern ones. I think it's got some copper leaf. I was doing a lot of copper leaf at the time, on it. Of course, the water. Daniel did the fish. I did the tree. Yeah, we all worked on that.

Little Thunder: And would you each--you didn't work on site or anything? You were just like--

Henderson: Yeah, we did all of it on site.

Little Thunder: Oh, you did? Okay, that's what I was wondering.

Henderson: In my old studio because had room in there. Yeah, we all did. I think Mom actually did take that one canvas and bead on it first.

Little Thunder: Your main focus, though, when you're painting now it's pretty much acrylics when you get your choice of media. Is that right?

Henderson: No, now it's oils. I love oils.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. That's interesting.

Henderson: (Laughs) I know. I do like acrylics and I like watercolor, too, pastels. I like a lot of different mediums. I guess it just kind of depends on what you're going to say and do. I like acrylics because you can paint really fast because they dry fast and stuff. For the style--like for instance, for that style that I did with the triptych, you can paint really fast. It dries fast. It's going to give you the impact.

The thing I don't like about them is that I'm not getting a true color because it's always going to dry darker or different for some reason. That's what I love 64:00about oils is the color. The trueness of the color, and the shininess, and all the different things you can do with it. Daniel and Mom is the one that talked me into doing them. I use water-based oils and water-mixable oil painting mediums. I don't do the old-school stuff, but I really like them.

Little Thunder: Do you do preliminary sketching directly on your canvas? Or do you do studies first and then--.

Henderson: It depends. Ideally, yeah, I'd like to do it directly on the canvas. If I'm going to do something really quickly, I can do that. If it's something that I'm pretty familiar with, I can do that. Hardly ever happens. Usually, I'm going to have to do some research, and some sketches. Maybe even some little studies that end up--I think they're a painting, but they end up being a study 65:00for something else that's going to be bigger.

I was taught by Dick West. He would take my sketches and just go, "This is too long, that's too short, blah, blah, blah," and just start going all over it. Just tearing the paper, whong, with his big old hands. I remember the first time he did that, I was just like, "Wow, the kid gloves are off now. We're not in Sunday school no more." (Laughter) He handed it back to me and I just looked at him and I said, "I'm going to have to do this over, aren't I?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "Okay."

(Laughter) So I was taught, you get that sketch and you get it right, and your anatomy better be correct. I was taught to know your history and don't be 66:00putting stuff in there if you don't know what it's about. For instance, design, decoration, other things. The leaves on the strawberries--we looked at so many pictures. Not that we spent a lot of time with it, but I mean, I was taught you make it correct because somebody's going to see that and they're going to say, "That's not right." This is--

Little Thunder: --wild strawberries

Henderson: This is stuff may collect dust, and be in a storage room, and get rained on, or whatever, or it might last for centuries. You don't know. More than likely it's going to outlive you, so what are you going to leave behind? It's important with the Native American art, I think.

Little Thunder: How about titles? How important are they to you as a painter?

Henderson: I don't really care. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Do you title your paintings?

Henderson: Yes, I title them. Like I said, I don't put a big emphasis on them. Now the strawberries paintings, I didn't even put a title on mine when I took it down there. Daniel had a title on his called Strawberry Fields, and so on my invoices I put Strawberry Fields 2, Strawberry Fields 3. (Laughter) That's how committed I am to them.

Little Thunder: What's your creative process from the time that you get an idea? It can either be for a painting or a design, beadwork design, or whatever.

Henderson: The best ones they come in a dream, I think, because you're always thinking about them. Or when I'm driving. But yeah, the best ones come in a 68:00dream usually. That one did. That one's about the ravages of addiction. I think that's what it's called, is Addiction. I had that show--I did my--what do you call it? All art students have to do a show. I did that--

Little Thunder: Yeah.

Henderson: --all seniors have to do that.

Little Thunder: Your senior capstone project.

Henderson: Yes, my capstone. I did my capstone during the American Indian Symposium in the U[niversity C[center], in the Morgan Room, or one of them [at Northeastern State University]. Before that, everybody had always just done them down at the library. They set up some easels and threw some pictures up, had some punch.

I said, "Man, if we're going to do a show, you need to have an audience and make 69:00some sales." They didn't have a gallery back then. They got a gallery now, downtown, which is wonderful actually. I knew Phyllis Fife and at the time she was over the symposium and she was all for it. She was like, "Yeah, let's do a show." I pretty much sold just about everything, but I had that one up.

The reason I brought that up was because so many people and so many kids--because a lot of schools bring kids through that symposium--they'd all get up there and I got so many comments. Some of them would just come in and they were, "Yes, that's what it's like. Yes, yes." Because so many--you just think 70:00about it, everybody knows somebody that's been affected by alcohol. I think I got pretty close with this one as far as what it's like and people could relate to it.

Little Thunder: Right. We're going to look at that here in a moment. It's very powerful. What has been a fork in the road in your art career where in your art production, where you sort of went one way and you could've gone another? A kind of fork in the road moment. You might have mentioned it.

Henderson: Well, like I said, I was all set to go to get my master's. I didn't end up--well, my baby was stillborn, so I don't have any children. I have seven 71:00nieces and nephew, but I don't have any children of my own. I had to go through that as far as the process of grief and all of those things, and come out on the end and decide whether or not I wanted to go to school, or if I wanted to start my life.

My husband was several years older than me and he really wanted to buy a house. Myself, I'm one of those people who didn't really care. I mean, I'm very grateful now that I have a house, but at the time I was just, I don't really care, but it was important to him. I knew that I was getting these offers and so 72:00I was going to be able to make the money that I'd always wanted. (It's my little cat. (Laughs) She's decided to play. I'm sorry.) It was start my life, house, or go to school? If I went to school, how was it going to benefit me?

Little Thunder: What's been a really high point of your art production so far? A high point?

Henderson: Oh, but we were talking about the forks.

Little Thunder: The forks, yeah, maybe we didn't finish that thought. Yeah.

Henderson: I don't know if I even got to it.

Little Thunder: You mentioned the three choices.

Henderson: Right. The reason I didn't go to TU is because I couldn't get anybody to meet with me. I'd set up an appointment, I went over there, and nobody was there. I walked around the school and what I really wanted to see was the 73:00graduate student areas. What were you going to get for the amount of money? Normally, they're just little curtained off areas. I didn't even see anything and the building was so small. I was like, "They probably don't even have an area." I left. Like I said, I had a wonderful tour at OU. She was--Mary Jo Watson was really pushing me more towards Indian art history, and I really wanted to explore more painting, which could have--Arkansas was awesome. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I've heard.

Henderson: They had somebody meet me there. They gave me a tour, full-out tour, and they have a wonderful facility. They have a gallery right in their own art building. They have their own art library, and of course, they have a lot of 74:00funding. They actually showed me an area of a little space about the size of this area right here, which was way bigger than any space that I'd seen before because usually it's like, I'm talking small. They took me over to the financial aid building and offered me a scholarship that isn't advertised, so I was going to get a full ride.

Then I didn't go, of all things. I don't know, that's been a long time ago and I'm sure that some of that is probably still--I can go to school now with my husband's VA. I could do it if I wanted, so that's there, too, as an option if I ever wanted to. I'm just more interested in trying to learn more technique, 75:00actually. I don't know, all of that is still out there as far as forks in the road.

I'm very proud of my service to the Cherokee Nation as far as an employee, working in the prevention field. I know it's important work, but I didn't get to do a lot of painting along the way. I did do some artwork and have met a lot of people. I got appointed to the National Treasure's committee. I get--people ask me questions like they think I know something. (Laughs)

Hastings Shade told me that one time. He said, "You know, one day," he was talking about himself, "one day you're going to wake up and realize people are 76:00asking you questions and they're referring to you as an elder and you don't even know you are." He said, "That's how I am now." We were like, "Yeah, you're an elder. You know so many things, too." (Laughter)

I'm not saying I'm there yet, but it's kind of working that way. It's nice as far as, you know, being able to have some input on things. That's about as far as my fork--that's about as far as I've gotten in the present time, but it could've been very different.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we take a look at your paintings?

Henderson: No. What was that other question you asked, before I took us off?

Little Thunder: I guess a high point in your art slash personal life. A high 77:00point and a low point, if you wanted to think about that.

Henderson: I think my high point's yet to come--

Little Thunder: Yeah, it sounds like you're really getting ready to--

Henderson: --I think I told you about Philbrook. That was a high point that I didn't even realize was there. The Creator probably has things in store for me and I don't know what those are. He's always taken care of me. I'll just do whatever I have to do. That's one thing I've always thought of and considered. Daniel will say the same thing. I'm just riding on the train. There was an elder (and I can't remember who it was) from another tribe, they were talking about to 78:00be the hollow bone. That's what you want to be is the hollow bone.

You have to keep it cleared out so that the Creator can move through you and out to the world. I just try to do the best I can at that and wait for the opportunities and just try to be aware when they come. To paint and do what I need to do. What he feels like he wants me to do as far as what I need to say. Like I said, I think the best is yet to come. As far as my low point, I had a lot of them when I was younger. This thing, taking care of my husband because he 79:00got ALS from Agent Orange, being a Vietnam veteran. Some people may think that's a low point, but he was such a blessing in my life and to many other people. It was really just an honor, I wouldn't call it a low point experience. It was really an extraordinary experience. I don't know. I'm hoping I don't have very many low points coming. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I know you're not going to miss any calls, any calls for art. Okay, we're going to pause it real quickly and reposition the camera to see your artwork. You want to tell us a little bit about your triptych?

Henderson: Yes, this is a triptych about addiction. This first one is really 80:00about everything that goes with it as far as living in an alcoholic family, the consequences of it, and some of the things that--because children end up raising other children. You could even say, maybe teen pregnancy, but a lot of it has to do with how we treat each other even when you're in that. The consequences of it, like I said. The acting out, and the high risk, and the rage. Then, of course, broken promises, good intentions, but broken promises.

This COA stands for Children of Alcoholics, and on the can it says DUI. It's a 81:00multigenerational thing. That's why "planting seeds" is on there because if people grow up in this environment they're more likely to, unfortunately, become the same way. They hear all this stuff growing up, "I hate you. You can't do anything right. You're stupid. You're not good enough." Those are just, "don't cry," standard things, so it's a lot of feelings in there. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Okay. This is the second part of the triptych.

Henderson: This is the second part of the triptych. You can see that they go together as far as flowing into, one to another. Like I was saying a while ago, 82:00as a result of all of this, a lot of times this is what you get from it. This represents the internalizing all of these things and the consequences of that. All of these things that are written into the figure is what's internalized and what people think about themselves if they grew up in this environment.

A lot of times children of alcoholics, they have shame, they feel like they're no good. Even if they've been told, "You're a great person," or whatever and, "You're doing wonderful things," nothing's ever good enough. They're very angry. Some of this other stuff is what people say, "I'm worried about you." They're just kind of standard things that come with it. Resentment. Why did this happen 83:00to me?

Sometimes there will be sexual assault. They'll grow up with all sorts of emotional issues from that kind of trauma. The black part is very important because people that are in that depression, that's what they say, all of them say it, "All I could see was black. That's all I can see." This part right here represents, the little white and yellow, is kind of like a light at the end of the tunnel. They'll describe that, too. They'll say, "I can see a little bit of a light," but they don't really want to believe it, and they can't believe it because it has to do with the fear, and the anger, and not thinking they can do anything about it. So a lot of them do suicide. They disintegrate, they develop 84:00depression, and they isolate, so that's why we've got this person sitting up here, isolated.

Little Thunder: I can see why students would relate so strongly to this, too. All right, and this is the last one of the triptych.

Henderson: Yes, so you can see how it also flows into the other one, the last one. What the last one represents is recovery basically--surviving. If a person makes it through all of this, and they live and they don't commit suicide and they actually get some help, and work through those things this is what can happen. These are some of the promises and some of the support and things that happen. That you're not alone because you really feel like you are. What you realize when you get that support is that you're not alone. They teach you how 85:00to be grateful, that's part of the changing in the thinking. Because you know you can think of the glass half empty, or half full. So they teach you about--and part of that is about gratitude. The easiest way to get to a positive thought is through gratitude and you got to think about it because sometimes we like to dwell in our--feeling sorry for ourselves. That's also where the healing starts, and being able to celebrate, and feeling blessed--where the miracles start to happen. The hand goes through from the person and it's holding like a little lamp, so that's like the symbol of hope, and the butterfly for renewal.

Well this one--I like it and people like it because it does look like a cool 86:00blanket right?

Little Thunder: It does. It would be a great design.

Henderson: It's actually a study, a color study that I did for school. (Laughter) It was a culmination of all of this study about--we had to do all these color wheels. Oh my god, I bet I created three or four different kinds of color wheels and then value charts. Then we of course did still lifes and some other things to learn about color, and it really opened my eyes to color--like I can't look at that white wall without seeing all the colors in it as a result of all that.

R. C. Koontz taught me all of that because he's awesome that way. He's a they 87:00honored him--he's one of the millennium teachers for NSU. He taught me all of that, so what this is, is a study on complementary colors. If you look at a medicine wheel, and I have one, got a medicine wheel right here.

Little Thunder: Yes, go ahead and show that, too.

Henderson: If you look at a medicine wheel--a color wheel. If you look at a color wheel--

Little Thunder: Which is its own, I guess, medicine wheel.

Henderson: Yeah. (Laughter) It was working on me, believe me. You've got your primary colors: your yellow, blue, and red. Those are primary. Illustrated down here, you also have your secondaries which are in-between those: so we've got green, and purple, and orange. They're secondary, what they call secondary. Then 88:00there's tertiary: that's the rest of them, okay?

If you look at the wheel, and this is why I still have this wheel out here because I haven't memorized all of them. I do kind of know them. What they call the primary color always has a complementary color. So the primary color yellow, the complementary color, the complementary color of that is purple. Same thing with red, the complementary color is green. You wouldn't think that, but that's what--if you really want to bring out a color, you add its complementary right next to it. I still do that when I paint. If I want to pull something out, I add the complementary. That's how it is. It's directly opposite the wheel, that's why I got it out. What you got here, and I'm in the light, like here's a blue 89:00and the complementary of blue is orange. Orange is right next to it. It's kind of difficult to do because you're putting lines down right and so we've got yellow and blue, I've got red and green. There's different values here, but we've got the purple and the yellow, and the red and the green again, and the red and the green. Then there's orange, which is also kind of a really warm color. These are all right next to each other.

Little Thunder: Just the softness of the lines and it looks like a piece of fabric--

Henderson: And I did it, yeah, I did it really brushy.

Little Thunder: --it looks like a blanket.

Henderson: I did it really brushy and ideally we were supposed to make those lines really straight and perfect, and I didn't do that because I wanted to do it really fast. I didn't make them straight and perfect because I can't do a 90:00straight line. This is one of my fallacies. I cannot paint a straight--it's very hard. My mom's real good at it. I can't do it.

Little Thunder: It works so much better like this, actually.

Henderson: That's why I didn't do it, but Mr. King said it's fine because you did the whole thing that way. If you tried to make some of it straight then it wouldn't work. He came and looked at it and he goes--I said, "I'm finished." He kind of looked at it and goes, "Okay." I said, "I'm done. You're not going to make me redo anything?" because I thought he was going to, and everybody just looked at him like--(Laughs)

Little Thunder: Mr. King, she didn't follow directions. (Laughter)

Henderson: Yes, yes.

Little Thunder: That's great.

Henderson: Teacher's pet, but he was right. I love this painting because of 91:00that. I've got the memories, but also because it's such a cool painting and I want to do it bigger.

Little Thunder: That would be neat.

Henderson: And it does look like a blanket.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you so much for your time today, Mary.

Henderson: You're welcome.

------ End of interview -------