Oral history interview with Tom Mooney

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, February 13, 2015. I'm interviewing Tom Mooney at the Tahlequah Public Library for the Oklahoma Native Artist Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. Tom, you just recently retired from your job at the Cherokee National Museum. I'm looking forward to hearing more about you, your long association with the Trail of Tears Art Show, which started in 1971, and quickly became one of the premiere shows in the state. The first, probably annoying question I need to get out of the way is whether you are any relation to ethnologist James Mooney who wrote about the Cherokee in the late nineteenth century?

Mooney: I've been asked that many times, and no, I'm not. I keep saying he was too smart to be kin to me.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Mooney: I was born in Tulsa. That was a special trip, though. I lived my entire childhood in Mounds, Oklahoma, which is twenty-five miles south of Tulsa. Went 1:00to school there and continued on to Oklahoma City University for my bachelor's, and the University of Tulsa for my master's.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Mooney: My father, when I was born, he was working for a place called Tulsa Training School, which he taught artwork there. He was a sign painter by profession.

Little Thunder: A sign painter?

Mooney: Sign painter. He worked for Coca-Cola. Then, for Davis Aircraft. Then, then out on his own. My mother primarily was in the newspaper business. She worked about twenty years on newspaper advertising, and then became the editor of the Society page or the Women's page as they called it there at the Sapulpa Harold.

Little Thunder: The Sapulpa Harold?

Mooney: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay. Are you Cherokee, and if so, what side of your family?

Mooney: I guess I am one of those "wannabes" or "out-of-lucks." They, on my mother's side, there is a story told of a lady who was of Cherokee background from North Carolina. She was born really at the heart of the Cherokee Nation in the 1700s. They went over the hill and were on the wrong side to be enrolled. The family does make an application on the Guion Miller Applications in 1906. And also on the Dawes Roll of 1896.

I talked to several other persons in the family who are genealogists. They're both convinced that they were more concerned about getting free land than they were about being really proud of being Cherokee. My father's side, his mother, made application to the Dawes Commission, but they were living in Arkansas. They were going to be Mississippi Choctaws. I think she was something, too. The bloodline, I think, is out there. We can do this little argument about who is, 3:00who isn't. I'm just not quite as bully as some people are about pressing the point.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that your father had this sign painting background. What was your exposure to art in your home growing up?

Mooney: Actually, he wanted to be a cartoonist. At one point, he wanted to work for Disney, but he couldn't afford the trip out there.

Little Thunder: Did he have an interview?

Mooney: No, he just couldn't get to California. That was his true love. He would sit in church for example, doodling on church bulletins, drawing little cartoon characters. The sign painting was what made the bread and butter around the household. He was occasionally called upon do some artwork there. As far as art in the household, it was not a lot of artwork. He didn't paint. He did one painting I know of. There wasn't too much there.

Little Thunder: He sort of thought of art as his--

Mooney: He loved artwork.

Little Thunder: Possibly [influencing]--

Mooney: When we would have out of town visitors, we would always throw them in the car and take them up to the Gilcrease or Philbrook and Little Rock most of the time. We made a lot of trips to those places.

Little Thunder: What were your impressions? You were very young when you were going to those museums, I guess.

Mooney: I loved it up there. I always looked forward. For some reason, the Gilcrease impressed me more than the Philbrook. I guess the European paintings weren't that fascinating to me.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you liked Gilcrease museum more than Philbrook. Why was that?

Mooney: I guess the European art wasn't as fascinating to me. I did like the Indian Art downstairs at Philbrook. Also, Mr. Gilcrease came from the Mounds area. I thought that was--he was a hometown boy. There was a house out there 5:00that we used to play in sometimes owned by the Gilcrease family. You'd drive down this one road and there was this abandoned two-story house out there with some of the Gilcrease family members still buried on the site there. You had to park on the road, and cross a gate and go down this dark path, which was--for a bunch of kids, it was made to scare you. You'd get up there. We never did anything bad, but we did have parties out there. Other people did, not me. They finally burned the house down at one point, at one of the parties. He was Creek, so he got all his money that way in the oil business.

Little Thunder: Right. Were there specific Native artists that you were paying attention to, or did you just know you liked Native artists?

Mooney: At that point, I guess one of my biggest exposures was Acee Blue Eagle did a set of tumblers for an oil company. They'd put these out and that's 6:00probably my first awareness of a Native artist, I guess. My mother had gone to school with Cecil Dick and she talked about him sometimes. She said he was always doodling in class and he'd throw pieces of paper on the floor and stuff. She said she wishes she would have picked a bunch of those papers up now and kept them because I guess they would have been quite valuable at some point.

Little Thunder: How about your exposure to art in elementary school and middle school?

Mooney: Zero to none. It was a small school. There were no art classes to speak of. It didn't happen.

Little Thunder: Where did you attend high school?

Mooney: At Mounds.

Little Thunder: At Mounds. Any exposure to art in high school?

Mooney: No. My father, when he passed away, he did leave some money to the school for a scholarship fund and to use in the art class. In his retirement, he spent a few hours up there, teaching a voluntary class about artwork. He enjoyed 7:00that part of it.

Little Thunder: How neat. What happened after high school?

Mooney: Well, you go to college. I went to OCU which is a good university. I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. Before that I'd had history. You can't do a whole lot with history other than coach basketball or something, and I wasn't a basketball player. I wasn't a teacher. I went to one class downtown in Oklahoma City, an education class that scared the devil out of me. I got out there, and they were all mean-looking kids. This little small town school boy, and I didn't like the urban school.

Little Thunder: This is an education class that--

Mooney: It was a required education class.

Little Thunder: -- that scared you.

Mooney: Scared me and got me out of the system.

Little Thunder: Because of the students?

Mooney: Oh, yeah. I didn't want any part of that. So I went then to an internship class at the Cowboy Hall of Fame. Went up there and did that. I worked for different departments out there and got into--liked the museum business very well.

Little Thunder: So was it curatorial kind of internship?

Mooney: The first semester we spent rotating through various departments. We spent time with a curator, Juan Menchaca, and the Bust of Lincoln came in while we were there. I saw them--they put it together with a fork lift because you've got the legs, the torso, and the head. They chipped a piece out and Menchaca was able to get through there. I knew where the break was, and he fixed it to where you couldn't see it.

Little Thunder: I haven't heard of him. Can you repeat his name?

Mooney: Juan Menchaca. He came from Denver.

Little Thunder: He did the bust for--

Mooney: The bust was by James Earle Fraser but the--

Little Thunder: Oh, okay.

Mooney: The repair work on it when they moved it and set it up was somebody else. End of the Trail was sitting out there on a flatbed trailer when I was there.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Mooney: That was an exciting time to be there.

Little Thunder: When the monumental works arrived, you were there.

Mooney: We were carrying some artwork through there one time. I just had this big painting flopping around. It was a Thomas Moran, and Dean Krakel who was the director at the time said, "It's worth a quarter of a million dollars, so be careful." That was too much information. I didn't need that.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) So you got hooked on the museum business early?

Mooney: I did. It was very nice to be out there. In the formative years of the Cowboy Hall, too. They weren't that old. It was 1968 when I was there. They were still young, too.

Little Thunder: Right. You were there for just a year as an intern?

Mooney: Yeah, two semesters.

Little Thunder: Two semesters. Was it easy for you to go to college? Did you have the money or did you have to work?

Mooney: My parents came through on that part of it for me. I was kind of weird. Had a bowling scholarship, of all things. I was on the university bowling team. Sounded like I was--

Little Thunder: So you did have that bowling scholarship.

Mooney: It was through the youth bowling leagues. I think it was $250 or something like that. It wasn't a whole lot of money, but it was kind of neat to say I have a bowling scholarship to go to college with.

Little Thunder: Right. When you graduated from college your degree was in--

Mooney: History.

Little Thunder: History. You had this taste for museum work. What did you do after that?

Mooney: I applied to the University of Tulsa. Got in there. Got my master's.

Little Thunder: In history, also?

Mooney: Applied to every museum I could think of, and didn't get anything at all 11:00at first. Worked at a paint store for about three or four years.

Little Thunder: An art paint store or a regular paint store?

Mooney: Just a regular paint store, Cook Paint and Varnish Company. Learned a lot about business transactions there, I guess. How to keep books. The opportunity to come to the Cherokee Heritage Center came up, so I went there very willingly because I'm back in my hometown, basically. My mother is from Tahlequah, and I'm very familiar with the town. I'm glad to be here. I love it here. You can't get me out of there hardly. I can't imagine being in one of these large towns where you have to fight traffic every day.

Little Thunder: Right. So you are arriving in Tahlequah with your Master's in History?

Mooney: Yes.

Little Thunder: What job title did you have?

Mooney: My first title at the Heritage Center was historical researcher. Titles 12:00aren't going to mean a whole lot because the staff gets called upon to do a lot of jobs that they aren't fully trained for. It can be very unexpected. I came there in December of '76. It was a very slow time, which I didn't realize that the museum was so seasonal. Probably three-fourths of their business comes in the summertime. I'm in the basement of the museum's library with the archives, which was in one little file cabinet. It's grown a lot since then. I thought to myself, "Dear God in heaven, what have I done to myself? I'm still single and I'll never see anybody down here." It's been the most fascinating place to work at, though, to meet people. I was very early put into the genealogy area, which gets a lot of traffic that way. Then, just [inaudible] come through there. 13:00There's people that drop through that went to see Ernie Ford at the drama one night. Dr. Ruth, the sex doctor came through for the women's conferences they were having. We've had more recently Justice Sandra Day O'Connor visiting. I met my wife there, too, so--

Little Thunder: Tell us about that. Tell us about that encounter.

Mooney: I met here there and later began dating her, so it was not a lot to tell there. All's worked out pretty good. I enjoyed my time there. I was there thirty-eight years. In that length of time, a lot of stuff happens. Some good, some bad. But that was one of the better things that happened to me.

Little Thunder: Right. So the archives were originally, as you said, just in this one filing cabinet?

Mooney: It was one file cabinet. We had about six boxes of photographs in there and some letters, just odds and ends. It really wasn't that big. Later we 14:00acquired the papers from Chief Keeler. Whenever Boyd Pierce passed away, got his collection. Some other fairly sizable ones. There's some there by Philip Viles who is Supreme Court Justice. It's been fascinating to see these things come in as they--

Little Thunder: Right.

Mooney: --arrive.

Little Thunder: The Trail of Tears Show itself was only four years old when you arrived there? I think started in '71?

Mooney: I think it was sixth annual.

Little Thunder: Oh, sixth annual. Okay.

Mooney: It started in '72. First it was out in the Ancient Village. They tied it to the trees and things.

Little Thunder: The artwork was--

Mooney: Yeah, it was hung on trees.

Little Thunder: -- was hung from trees.

Mooney: Right.

Little Thunder: Okay. That was before--

Mooney: Then, they built the museum in '74.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Mooney: We got to have the shows in there. My first year was, of course, spring of '77 on the Trail of Tears Art Show. I didn't know what the thing was. It really wasn't that impressive of a show.

Little Thunder: What was the focus of the show then?

Mooney: Every piece of artwork had to be a Trail of Tears theme.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay.

Mooney: They had two categories, contemporary and traditional. The traditional was the flat style with no shading or anything. Very few people entered that part of the show. It was mostly the contemporary that they entered. In 1979, as I remember, they had nine artists entering fourteen pieces.

Little Thunder: Wow. Were any of those artists' names that we would recognize?

Mooney: If I could remember or not, they would be. The show was open to all artists. That's how we came to the decision about whether or not to continue the 16:00show or what to do with it. It was basically in trouble, we knew that. At about the same time, Philbrook was dropping their show.

Little Thunder: The Indian Annual--

Mooney: So there was a void there. We got together a committee of artists to make changes, recommend changes.

Little Thunder: Were they just from Tahlequah?

Mooney: The group stayed pretty much to same. I'm not sure who was there and what time, but it was Troy Anderson, Bill Rabbit, Jeanne Rorex. They were the nucleus of it. There was or two or three others I can't remember. The recommendations were that we drop the Trail of Tears theme requirement as part of the show, but retain it as a category. Then allow paintings, sculptures, and 17:00graphics of any theme.

Little Thunder: Prior to that, had you had sculptures? Was 3D a category as long as it was Trail of Tears, or not?

Mooney: I don't think it was. I think it was all painting.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Mooney: They had at least four categories. Another thing was the artwork had to stay in the museum for about three months originally. They wanted to have it in and out, tied up less time. I think we did a four-week show at that time. Then we had a request for more money as prize money. The Grand Award was $350.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Mooney: In November of '79, a man name Gene Hallen came to be our development officer. He worked with Getty Oil Company to be the sponsor of the show. He always felt that Getty got--passing out these very small checks, he was a little bit embarrassed by it. Getty increased their support the following year. In '80 18:00we had a lot of entries. I'm going to guess 180 or so.

Little Thunder: And were they from across the country?

Mooney: They got more participation in it, yeah. It was more of a national show. When they got the increased prize money in, then it went up to over 300 pieces at that time. I'm used to coming in there and having four or five artists carry some work in, maybe one or two arrive by mail at one point. All of a sudden you're getting this barrage of mail from the Post Office. You go down there and many boxes. There's the bus station sending stuff in, UPS arriving with it. It got out of hand real fast.

Little Thunder: You were the one that took the artwork in?

Mooney: Yes. We had another thing going where you go down to Norman or Oklahoma City and pick up art there from Big Cabin. The timeline of the show was really 19:00pressing because we would have a Sunday deadline on it.

Little Thunder: A Sunday deadline?

Mooney: One person, he's from Oklahoma City. They'd get up and down there, coming back to Tahlequah almost midnight. Then, we spent all night staying up, segregating the art by category. By this time, we had the miniatures as a theme because I think it was Troy Anderson that suggested we do this because people could buy a name artist at a smaller price. It's been a very popular category. He was right on that.

Anyway, we'd get all this artwork in middle of the night, almost, on Sunday. Then, we'd stay up all night there putting all the paintings in one area, the sculptures over here, and so forth. We'd judge them the next day, judge the artwork. Then, we'd bring in the guy to hang the stuff. My job got to be 20:00bringing the best of the artwork to the public. Back in this time, we didn't have computers or anything. You had to take everything to a typesetter, and then proofread her stuff. Then, bring it back to make corrections. Then, get it printed up. It was always an all-nighter on Friday night. We actually opened the show on Friday for a while there, too. We went back to Saturday later on. It was a severe time crunch.

Little Thunder: It sounds like it. You mentioned "we." There were a couple of other people who were employees at the Heritage Center who helped with separating out the artwork into the categories?

Mooney: That would be the entire staff. Whoever was there at the time.Little Thunder: Whoever was there at the time--Mooney: Yeah, it was all hands on deck for this thing.

Little Thunder: How about the early jurying process? How were the judges chosen?

Mooney: That was another part of the artist things. They wanted to get away from 21:00using a local judge. They wanted to bring in somebody from maybe New Mexico or whatever.

Little Thunder: Was it a single judge?

Mooney: It's been single, two, three, whatever, depending on the year. I decided that two judges is about the worst of all worlds because you'd have a strong judge, a weak judge. One of them will dominate the other. You get one judge and it all comes from one person. The artist themselves, if they win, the judge is excellent. If they lose, they didn't know anything or something. It's always a crapshoot on what the judge is liking. Some judges, I guess--to get into what I've seen--I've seen the senior side of judging at this point. Once or twice 22:00I've seen the judge not give an award to the artist because, "That guy can do better than that." You're fighting against yourself.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Mooney: There was one year, we had a thing called a Special Merit Awards. We didn't do the one, two, three system, but we did the best of category. Then we told what awards were to be given in each category. If you had half the show being painting and the other half being-- you might give a lot more awards, Merit Awards in one category here. I saw one year two judges fight it out over which of these two Special Merit Awards were for the Best of Show. They couldn't agree, so out of nowhere, comes a third piece that is now Best of Show.

Little Thunder: That wasn't even being considered.

Mooney: Yeah.

Little Thunder: So--

Mooney: It's just crazy.

Little Thunder: You saw the arbitrariness in some of the decisions.

Mooney: There was a judge one year who asked me what I thought. She had it down to two pieces. [She asked], "Which one do you like best?" It was the miniatures. I wouldn't say anything to her and she finally pushed one. [I said], "That one." That was how that got picked out.

Little Thunder: Were there a lot of Native judges, non-Native judges? How did that work out?

Mooney: We tried to. The driving force of the show was Bob Rucker. He came over from Norman. He's a collector and everything. He knew a lot of the judges and so forth. He would pick them out, but there was a pretty good-sized party the night before the show, the artists coming down. Bob and all of his friends out there. They had a Pig Award that they'd give out, somebody wore a pig nose around and collected money--

Little Thunder: This was not part of the official show?

Mooney: That was not part of the official show, no, but it was part of the 24:00atmosphere that went around there.

Little Thunder: What were they collecting money for?

Mooney: I don't know. Being pigheaded.

Little Thunder: The next round?

Mooney: I remember getting Jeanne Rorex to wear this pig nose and carried a pig under... But anyway, we had a lot of fun back in those days.

Little Thunder: The receptions were fun. They did change in character. I remember going to some receptions that were dinners, and then others that eventually became just hors d'oeuvres, I guess.

Mooney: Part of the thing there is we had to close the museum for the entire day. Back in that time, nobody got in on opening day other than the people who had been invited to the dinner.

Little Thunder: I see.

Mooney: We rang a bell, or blew a whistle, and everybody, the doors opened, everybody would run to a painting and buy something. Now it's been strung out to an all-day event, basically. People look at it all day long. Then they start 25:00selling it at six o'clock or so. I didn't like the lack of decorum about the people rushing in. Thinking about it the other way now, I kind of wish it was back in the old days now. I think that had a little excitement about it.

Little Thunder: The format of everybody having to kind of compete?

Mooney: People come down there and then sneak in--not sneaking in--they'd just go visit the museum. They could see where their paintings were and they had a little advantage over the people that didn't know where they were. So we did have some come in a day ahead of time to scope it out. They come, put their hand on the sales tag, and say, "This one's for me. Mark it up."

Little Thunder: Did you actually have to write up some of the invoices too?

Mooney: Oh, yes. I did. Very gladly.

Little Thunder: Right. Whatever job you needed to take on.

Mooney: I think working with the artist has been my most enjoyable part of that job I've had over thirty-eight years. I didn't know any of them before I came 26:00down there. As a group, they're just very nice people that I was very pleased to be with. I've always envied somebody who could look at something and draw it real nice. And just see the different styles. We got some that look like photographs that might be from photographs sometimes. Others, like Robby McMurtry, would take a coyote and do something very humorous with it.

I always enjoyed Robby's work. I'm not much of an abstract person, but then I would see some that I did like very well, too. I kind of got into, I guess, beginning to like an artist's work because I like the artist. I think some of them could paint trash, and I still like it. Some guys that if I didn't care for a painter, if it was a masterpiece, I'd refuse to admit it. As far as personal collecting, though, I'm like the Emperor's new clothes. I go up there at the 27:00start of a new show and I find a piece I just dearly loved. I never felt right buying it because we are inviting buyers there as our guests and I didn't want to jilt them on a piece of artwork. After it went there all night long without being sold, I think, "What's wrong with it? Nobody likes this piece. I'm not going to buy that!"

Little Thunder: That's interesting.

Mooney: I went through it one time with Martha Berry, she had a bag in there. I bought this small one of hers.

Little Thunder: Yes. She does lovely work. What's a favorite story or funny story that you have about getting to know an artist down there?

Mooney: There is one, I don't know if he's Cherokee, but it's that Darren.

Little Thunder: [Cooper]

Mooney: --I think he's a graphics person. That's one of the pieces that I got in 28:00trouble with, too. He did a Madonna piece that my wife loved, and I didn't buy it and she still holds it against me. He was just this quiet, shy little kid who came down there. [He'd say to me], "Uh, uh, can I enter the show?" And I'd say, "Sure anybody can." Like I said it was very good artwork. Apparently, he had his work with a gallery or somebody. He worked his way up to selling from seventy-five dollars up to $750. His prices were way too cheap. He was just a very good artist.

Little Thunder: He didn't have that much confidence?

Mooney: He was very lacking in confidence. One of the things that our shows tried to do is to build the cottage industry of artists that can make their 29:00living here. Later on, Mike Daniel wanted us to expand the category to include pottery, of course, but also basketry, and the other five categories we've had since then. I've known Mike since we were in childhood. He lived about half a block from my grandparents here in Tahlequah and we played together all the time. He talks very loudly. I don't know if you have ever been around him that much.

He wanted to [add] ten categories in the show, and I was a little bit concerned about that, drawing down the purchasing power of the buyers coming here, that it would dilute it down too much. How we can afford the prize money to pay these other guys and all kinds of things. I met over at Linda Greever's place in Muskogee one time, saw him up there and I was just messing with him. I said, 30:00"Well Mike, we have to drop the Trail of Tears Art Show. We can't afford those other categories." "No, no, Tom." He's being mad. I was just going on with him. Linda thought we were out there getting into a fight or something. There's nothing Mike would ever say to me I would ever fight him for. I love the guy. Just a little exchange going. She was very concerned about it, though.

Little Thunder: The Trail of Tears category, as I remember, always did have a pretty big prize purse attached to it.

Mooney: Yeah, it's gotten pretty respectable over the years.

Little Thunder: And a special medallion.

Mooney: That's a Bob Rucker thing. He had the little Grand Award. Giving the pendant with the seal inside. He gave a little seal to everybody associated with the show. I got one myself, as a non-artist, I guess. Special Merit Award of my 31:00own. I still have it and am very proud of it.

Little Thunder: How nice. Different artists were asked to do those medallions, weren't they?

Mooney: Not that one. That was a--I think maybe Harvey Pratt may be the designer of that one. It's just the Cherokee National Historical Society symbol. It says, "Sixteenth Annual Show" on there or something like that. He stopped giving them around the year 2000.

Little Thunder: In 1991, with the passage of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, requiring proof of enrollment or a letter of certification from the tribe that an artist could represent that tribe, how did that impact that Trail of Tears art show?

Mooney: At first not at all. We were very supportive of those artists who did 32:00not have cards. There's a lot of arguments today about this biological side, this legal side of being Cherokee. I think on the one hand, it's very ludicrous to say that every Cherokee out there was registered by the Dawes Commission. We were probably a bit too freewheeling to accept it, though. We just said, "If you say you are, you are."

I can see the other side of the coin very easily, that if I were a Cherokee artist with a card, I'd be resentful of somebody coming in there and saying, "I am too." If they couldn't offer that proof. It's like my family itself. If that Cherokee blood is in my family, then it's so far back that it's not really part of my--who I am made up of. I understand the rules of what they are going by now 33:00with the Dawes Commission being required to do that. There are a lot of friendships involved there, too. I just felt sorry for my friends.

I thought when they pulled those artists out of the show, it would destroy the show. I was wrong about that. I think the show has really improved over the years. It's getting very strong. I miss those people that we ultimately rejected. It may have been a bump in the show for a year or two, but I think people adjusted to it, and it's back to where it was now. There was some people that came into the show because they didn't like being in a show with the people who didn't have proof of tribal citizenship, so there's two sides to it. I just 34:00wish that--A lot of good people got broke up friendships because of that.

Little Thunder: What do you think made and makes the Trail of Tears Show different from, say, the Five Tribes Show or Art Under the Oaks?

Mooney: I don't know, really. It's a bigger show, I think, than those two. We've tried over the years to bring in--there's a lot of people from all across the United States. We tried really hard to involve the Eastern Band of Cherokees. One argument goes along that if we are mission-related then we wouldn't take non-Cherokees in the show. They open the art show in the fall which is a 35:00strictly Cherokee show. It has a little bit different flavor by taking traditional works like bows and arrows and things.

Little Thunder: That strictly Cherokee show has not been going on quite as long has it?

Mooney: Since 1995, I believe. The other show, Trail [of Tears], what we did there with the advice of the artist committee again, was to involve Southwest Art magazine. See when Getty sold out to Texaco, Texaco was based in Houston. They took over the show and sponsored it very well. They sort of insinuated they'd like to have some of the money spent in the Eastern area so they could justify the sponsorship.

But also when they had Southwest Art magazine, we began using the Southwest Art judges rather frequently for the show and that gives us a little publicity that 36:00way. They would come down and do an interview with an artist that was in the show. We tried very much so to get, particularly, New Mexico and Arizona artists out there and also, a lot of the Eastern band of Cherokees. The Southwest artists showed up pretty well.

Little Thunder: Right. I remember when Susan McGarry came down, I think, the first year that she was a judge down here. That was another question I had. I think for many artists, in addition to the Trail of Tears show, then if they had won at the Trail of Tears a couple of times, you might go ahead and do a retrospective show for them. I know that you did that for a number of artists. Any idea how many?

Mooney: We were doing one a year there for a while. That was in the early '90s. 37:00We had Cecil Dick, Jeanne Rorex, Troy Anderson, Bill Rabbit--

Little Thunder: Merlin [Little Thunder]--

Mooney: Merlin and Mavis Doering, I think we did hers. I enjoyed every one of those shows, too. They were such fun to collect the pieces from their artwork. Never mind, I won't tell that story.

Little Thunder: You mentioned some changes in the sponsorship.

Mooney: I'll go ahead and tell this one story. It's going to get me in trouble, too.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Mooney: One of them was Virginia Stroud. There was a gallery in Colorado that loaned us some pieces of artwork from their clients. They came down here and we 38:00had trouble packing it up to the right size to get it bagged and everything.

At first, I was supposed to pack it. They'd had somebody else that was supposed to pack it up for us. That guy quit. They put me back in there. Then, they hired somebody else. The only common name these people had was my name. They were very familiar with my name. If I were ever to go up to Grand Junction, I probably would be dead meat up there. I just--

Little Thunder: Pieces were shipped when they hadn't been packed properly?

Mooney: We got them back very light. And they were very, very--they had every right to be as mad as they were. I wasn't quite as guilty as they thought I was. I was sure the only one they had a name for.

Little Thunder: They arrived intact, it's just that--

Mooney: My hands weren't clean, but they were-- (Laughter). It should have been 39:00manslaughter instead of first degree murder.

Little Thunder: How about the tribe's involvement with the museum and the show, the Trail of Tears Show? How has that changed over the years?

Mooney: They've supported us over the years by giving us, at first, an annual grant. Then, since 2005, there has been a thing called the memorandum agreement where they have significantly helped the support of the museum. It's tapering off now. Actually, it should have been sponsored by the Chickasaw Nation the last four or five years.

Little Thunder: What? The show's been sponsored by Chickasaw Nation?

Mooney: Yes.

Little Thunder: I did not realize that.

Mooney: A lot is Bank of Oklahoma and people like that.

Little Thunder: Interesting.

Mooney: C[herokee Nation] and E[nterprise] has given its support to the [Cherokee Art Market] Oklahoma Art Show because it's all Cherokee. They have single handedly made that show success. We owe a lot to C and E on that show, which is Cherokee Nation, of course. I can't say they don't sponsor our shows at all. That's not true. The Trail of Tears Show itself, I guess it's run hot and cold, the support there.

Little Thunder: In addition to that all Cherokee show, is that in conjunction with Cherokee holidays or is it a different time?

Mooney: It is now. It didn't start out that way. It's been in October. It's been all over the map really. We now make it up here, open around the time the 41:00Holiday Show is in effect.

Little Thunder: It seems like every aspect of American life and also business was hit hard by 9/11. The Native artists were hit hard by that event, too. I was wondering how the Trail of Tears Show was affected those first couple of years.

Mooney: I'm not sure it had a direct effect there. It's been, I think it may have been affected more by the local economies. The oil figures in the '80s and things that people start coming and buy as much as they can probably buy. It does have its good years and bad years. I'm sure you know.

Little Thunder: Up and down.

Mooney: We have certain buyers that come through various years and make the show, too. I think, the only thing the show is missing now, is the buyers they used to have. We used to have, given those parts that Bob Rucker had, he would bring in four or five of his own friends that would buy pretty heavily. That's gone way down.

Little Thunder: So, now the sales aren't as strong as they used to be in your estimation?

Mooney: Well, thanks to C and E, they are. That's where the tribal support has come in there, through C and E.

Little Thunder: They will purchase pieces for the--

Mooney: Our board has stepped up and has been buying pieces.

Little Thunder: I see.

Mooney: Just the ordinary buyers that collect, I think a lot of them have stopped coming. We used to have some that we looked forward to seeing every year 43:00and they don't show up now.

Little Thunder: In terms of what is going on right now, foot traffic, what is that like through the show? What is artist turnout like? Is the prize money roughly the same or has it grown a little?

Mooney: The prize money has gone up quite a bit. The sales, they continue to grow. They really do. Like I say, it's limited to a smaller group of buyers than it has been in the past.

Little Thunder: So not as many people coming through, just to see the show, on the part of the public?

Mooney: No, I used to go out there on Sundays--we'd open the show on Saturday--and there was always that one group and that's about all that was in there. Sunday sales would be about 50 percent of what the Saturday sales were. That doesn't happen anymore. People would pay twenty-five dollars to get in and 44:00buy their meals. That was a great deal. You had an open bar there. You had prime seating at the opening of the drama plus the art show. Only twenty-five dollars.

Little Thunder: Right. Is the drama still scheduled to coincide with the show?

Mooney: No, I don't think it will ever be reopened there. That theatre is in very bad shape. There were plans to redo the drama, maybe there, but other places have been talked about too, so I don't--

Little Thunder: Right? When did it stop officially?

Mooney: I think 2005 may have been the last show. The last performance of the Trail of Tears by Kermit Hunter was in '96. We began having a series of little summer events there. I miss it.

Little Thunder: I bet. What do you think the impact of the show has been just on 45:00the Native art landscape in northeastern Oklahoma?

Mooney: I think clearly it's helped it a lot. The art people that have relied on that show for a little extra income, particularly after you added the things that Mike Daniel wanted to add to the show, like the baskets and all that. We got a lot of basket makers and pottery. Pottery's been going really strong now with Jane Osti and people like that working with it. With their workshops around here, and we've got some very good potters that you didn't see ten years ago.

Little Thunder: Absolutely. I don't remember if Anna Mitchell ever entered the show with a pot?

Mooney: Yeah, she did. They did not give her a prize.

Little Thunder: She didn't get a prize?

Mooney: She gave a workshop over there one time. I used to think potters were just overrated and over expensive. So I was trying to do a little pot there. I 46:00had pot like that in mind, but that thing started flaring out like this. You had to go, tap, tap, tap, tap and try to get it back in[to pot shape] and then it started flaring out again. I had a totally different attitude about that after that workshop. My wife laughed at my finished product. Then she had to take a class to see if she could make a pot. I got to laugh at hers. As sad as mine was, it was better than hers. I love potters now. I think they do a great job.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Have you taken several workshops there in other media?

Mooney: In basketry.

Little Thunder: In basketry.

Mooney: I don't know why they say basketry is for the people who are nuts. That stuff will run you nuts. The first pattern I did was a fish scale [basket]. It's three over and three under. I thought surely to God I could count to three. You look at the last side, there's two.

Little Thunder: It seems like the show has played a role in the whole revival of a lot of traditional Cherokee arts as well.

Mooney: Thank you, Mike Daniel.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) On a personal level, you mentioned the Martha Berry piece. Is there any other art that you especially treasure? That you like to show?

Mooney: There is now. Sure. For my retirement, first of all, I got the watch here for going away. Betty Frond from the Village wove a mat for me, framed it and everything. It's called the unbroken friendship. It's probably twenty by twenty.

Little Thunder: It's beautiful.

Mooney: Just the sentiment behind it is what I really treasure. That's my new favorite piece. Around the house, I do have a couple Mike Daniel pots that he 48:00would probably pay me handsomely to take them out. It's some of his earliest pieces.

Little Thunder: Oh. Yeah, those are valuable.

Mooney: These are nothing like what he does now. But I treasure those because again I've known Mike all my life and I treasure that friendship, so I treasure the pottery.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give to a Native art collector who was just starting to acquire Native art?

Mooney: I don't know. I'd say, buy what you like. If you are trying to get it up in value or something later on, don't let that be a factor. Just buy what you want to buy. Now I'm going to get up to these shows and meet the artist, because to me that's what makes the pieces special, if you know the person. I don't care 49:00about these if I don't know the person. Merlin, I preferred him for all his mats. You wouldn't believe. You sure it's him? Yeah, that's that guy. Getting back to Robby McMurtry, too. I remember him and that coyote. I just, I think it's a shame the way he died.

Little Thunder: Yeah--

Mooney: We sure lost a good one there.

Little Thunder: We did.

Mooney: I just can't believe that. Sure it's a big mistake that I, I never did--never knew him to be aggressive like that.

How I felt about leaving the museum after thirty-eight years, you get that much of your life invested in one place, and it's a part of you.

Little Thunder: It's not easy is it?

Mooney: When I turned the keys over, I thought I was going to have a break down 50:00a moment there. But I did get past that one. It's just so weird to think that to go out there now, I'm going to be just another guest. I don't have a key to that door.

Little Thunder: Right, right.

Mooney: I'm still on extended vacation. I haven't got the reality set in fully. I do enjoy sleeping in the mornings, though. The hours are great and the pay is lousy. It's time to leave though, I think. They have a great guy replacing me out there, Jerry Thompson. He's going to do a wonderful job for them, I'm sure. Of course, I'm always available if they want to call me up and say, "What's in that box over there?" I'll try to tell them what I know about it.

Little Thunder: Will you volunteer at the art shows anymore?

Mooney: Spiritually. The body's-- I got this new van the other day to carry this 51:00chair around. Yeah, if I can get up there to do that, I'll be glad, too. I can drink wine legally now too if I go out there. I'm not part of the staff, sitting around.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) Is there anything we've left out that you would like to add? Anything we forgot to talk about?

Mooney: I don't think so. Well, I'll tell you one story about what happened at one of these judging things. I will name names in this one. It was Dick West and the guy from I[nstitute] of A[merican] I[ndian] A[arts], I think it was Brophy, I'm not sure. When the show ended, we said goodbye to the judges and everything. We started talking about the winners and realized that we didn't have a winner in one category. We had second, and third, and honorable mention.

I called Dick West over at Fort Gibson, and said, "Dick, we got a problem here." [West said], "Well, can you move second up to first and third up to second? Do 52:00that and pick a third place out of the honorable mentions." [I said], "Yeah? Which one?" [West said], "I don't know. Whatever or whoever the New Mexican guy goes with, I'll take it."

[I said], "Okay." So I let him get back to Mexico, then I called that guy.

[I said], "Whatever Dick said will be good with me." We finally got them together and got at least a name. That was one of the biggest mix-ups I had.

Little Thunder: That's a great story. Thank you for sharing that.

------- End of interview -------