Oral history interview with George Levi

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson Little-Thunder. Today is December 16, 2014. I'm interviewing George Curtis Levi for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at George's home in Mustang, [Oklahoma]. George, you're Southern Cheyenne and part Arapaho and Sioux. You do beadwork and make cultural items but are best known for your ledger art. You've illustrated a couple of books for Cheyenne children in public schools. You're one of the artists whose work is being used as a discussion bridge for this year's remembrances of the Sand Creek Massacre. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Levi: Yes.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Levi: I was born at Clinton Indian Hospital, Clinton, Oklahoma. I grew up between El Reno, Concho, and Geary.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Levi: My mother, when I was little, she used to work for the Indian boarding school. My dad worked for the Cheyenne Arapaho tribes, and he was a heavy equipment operator. Then my mother was a homemaker.

Little Thunder: When she worked, it was at Concho?

Levi: Yes, and she also worked at Xerox...

Little Thunder: Okay.

Levi: --and she was also a substance abuse counselor for the Cheyenne Arapaho tribes. Now she's all retired and everything.

Little Thunder: How many siblings do you have and where do you fall?

Levi: I have two sisters, one brother. -- I was the second.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Levi: My relationship with my grandparents is really, really, really good on my father's side. My grandpa's name was George Levi. He was Arapaho. My 1:00grandmother's name was Lillian Whitebird Levi, from Watonga, and I practically grew up with them. My grandparents on my mother's side, my grandpa's name was Floyd Tallbear, and he was from Deer Creek. He died before I was born. My grandmother's name on my mother's was Rose Homme Greany. She also passed away before I was born. I grew up around her sisters, Maude Greany Allrunner, and Ella Greany Chouteau, north of El Reno. Those are practically my grandmothers, grandfolks, too.

Little Thunder: What was your exposure to Cheyenne language as a child?

Levi: I was pretty much with it; I grew up with it. In fact, my Grandma Lilly she used to go to OU in the summertime, teach Cheyenne at the Summer Institute's Linguistics. Her and all her cousins, her sisters, all went down there in the ʼ70s, ʼ80s, so I grew up with the Cheyenne language. I also grew up with the Arapaho language, too, as well. My grandpa, he was fluent in Arapaho, and whenever his relatives came around they'd all speak. On both sides I grew up with Cheyenne. My grandmother, like I said, on my dad's side and on my mother's side, they all spoke Cheyenne.

Little Thunder: What were some of your artistic influences growing up?

Levi: Artistically I grew up, I was influenced--I seen my grandpa Kish 3:00Whitebird, one of grandma's little brothers, he was a silversmith, and I seen him all the time. He'd always come stay with us. I seen him doing his silverwork. Then I also seen my dad's cousin, his first cousin, Jerome Bushyhead. I grew up around him all the time. He was always coming to our house, or we'd go see him. His brother, Henry, my dad's other cousin, they were both painters. They did a lot of painting. Beadwork-wise, I seen my mom, my grandmas, they all, I guess you could say, were master beaders. Also at my grandma's place out north of Geary, Melvin Blackman, (he was Arapaho) he would come down to our place every day and eat lunch with us, my grandma and grandpa. He'd walk 4:00literally five miles every day to come eat lunch or dinner with my grandparents, and we'd give him a ride home. He always had his beadwork all the time. All the time, he always had his beadwork. Then I saw these--my grandpa had a lot of books, and I seen a lot of ledger art and stuff like that. I was always a really big fan of Carl Sweezy's work because my grandpa had a couple of pieces when I was growing up. I seen that all the time.

Little Thunder: So what is your first memory, like, of seeing Native art?

Levi: My first memory of seeing what the general public sees as Native art, like in paintings and from Time Life books my grandpa had, had a lot of the old 5:00paintings. I guess the old leather-bound books they put out had the American Indian series from 1960 to whatever. My grandpa had a lot of books; he had a lot of artwork. They had a lot of artwork, but basically the main ones I really remember seeing when I was like five or six years old, Indian summer school in El Reno, seeing my uncle Jerome come around. He showed us his art, and he talked to us kids.

Little Thunder: What's your first memory of making art?

Levi: My first memory of making art, just being a little kid drawing tipis on paper, making God's eyes, drawing GI Joe guys, drawing superheroes, stuff like that in comic books. I was a typical Indian kid. That's my first memories.

Little Thunder: What were your art experiences in school, in elementary school growing up?

Levi: I drew on anything. Anything! It didn't matter if it was a schoolbook. I got in trouble for drawing inside those books. Anything I could draw on I basically drew on. Then if I could get my hands on crayons or pens or paint, it didn't matter. I tried to paint. I never thought I would be an artist; it was just something that I did. I see my little boy, Harding, he's nine years old. I see him doing the same thing I was doing back then.

Little Thunder: Did you get a lot of support for your artwork at home or at school?

Levi: Not really because I have an older sister named Lisa. She was the artist. She was the painter. She went to Bacone [College], and she got immersed in all the art up there. In El Reno she took all the art classes. She did everything. She won all the awards and stuff like that. I got a little notice because I did a really, really, cool piece for the VFW poppy Veterans Day thing. I won a big award one time. I drew a hands up for the ones who gave back when I was like twelve years old. Other than that, I never really got the exposure.

Little Thunder: How about your art background in school, public school, in middle school or high school? What kind of a base did you--

Levi: I never really took art, anything like that. I never envisioned myself doing art. Taking, being taught art, nothing like that. I just literally did it all on my known. That's what I did. I never envisioned that I would become an artist or anything like that. If I had time, I wish I did that, but I was always into athletics and ag and stuff like that, farm boy stuff.

Little Thunder: When did you sell your first piece of art?

Levi: I'd say like maybe--. Sell my first piece of art. It's been a long time. (Laughs) I can't nail it down. Gosh, I used to do a lot of pieces a long time 9:00ago, beadwork style, maybe like twenty years ago, but that's it. I can't really--I don't know. I'd say about fifteen, twenty, years ago.

Little Thunder: Okay, and when did you begin beading, first begin beading?

Levi: I've always beaded. Like I said, my mother beaded almost on a constant basis. She was always beading, making moccasins or pouch sets or whatever. My grandmas did that. In fact, I used to bead, put things together like little chokers, little small stuff, and I used to take them with me when my grandma would be teaching, when I'd go with my grandpa to go visit my grandma at OU. I'd 10:00go to the Sam Noble Museum right there where the old museum used to be. I'd take my stuff in there, and I'd sell it to them.

Little Thunder: You'd sell it?

Levi: Yeah, so that's basically when I sold my first piece of art. I was like ten years old probably.

Little Thunder: So what happens after high school?

Levi: I just went out there--. The big part of my life is gone. My grandparents, they died when I was like a junior or senior in high school. My dad was working at Concho at the tribes. Somehow he pulled a string, got me a job out there. I used to work with Melvin Roman Nose. I worked out for the tribe for a while. I worked for their farm program and stuff like that for a long time. That was it. I did a lot of athletic stuff. I played a lot of softball. I traveled all over 11:00the United States playing some major fast-pitch, playing with one of the top teams in the country. I was going all over. I played pretty much literally year round.

Little Thunder: What team?

Levi: I used to play for the team called Blackhawks out of Arizona and California, and I used to go all over. In fact, I'm still playing ball now, so I still go to California and go all over.

Little Thunder: Wow. Did you seek any more formalized training at any point, art training?

Levi: No, never have, never have. Everything I've ever done is self-taught and give it a whirl. See something that I like, and I try to just get out there and get my hands on it and go with it. That's all I did. Never had nobody teach me 12:00how to do anything. Go with it. I'm going to go try it. That's it. That go-getter attitude, I guess you could say.

Little Thunder: When did you decide you were going to try to make your living doing art?

Levi: I'd say maybe twelve years ago, eleven years ago, maybe. I had done some work. Actually I started selling some things. People seen some of the stuff I started making. People liked my beadwork, and people liked my rawhide stuff, and they liked my drawings and paintings. Then, man, it seems it just snowballed. A lot of people really started liking my stuff. I'd take art with me, and I'd go everywhere. If I'm going towards Phoenix, I'd stop by the Heard [Museum] and 13:00stop by the gift shop, and they'd buy from me, and people in California or Santa Fe or wherever. I always carried a bag full of stuff with me.

Little Thunder: Even when you were playing ball?

Levi: Yeah, especially like that. A lot of people knew I did art, and they'd come up to me and say, "Hey, did you bring some of your artwork?" It was word of mouth. People will say, "Hey, he's doing some artwork," or, "He's doing this and that." I'd get a phone call or e-mail or something like that from people. Me and my wife, Heather, we had our little girl, Helson, and being a stay-at-home dad, it gave me the opportunity to be a full-time artist. So that's what I've been doing for the last, going on eleven years.

Little Thunder: Right.

Levi: Yeah, because she's going to be eleven in May, so I've been doing that 14:00full-time all the time. That's it.

Little Thunder: When you set up to paint when your daughter was little, did she come hang out with you, too?

Levi: (Laughs) Yeah, and my little boy. Yeah, I'd put them in the walkers and stuff like that. My kids, they grew up around the art, be it in their walkers or being around, walking around, being toddlers. They know when I'm doing art; they're usually quiet. They do not touch any of my art pencils or paints or any of the framing stuff. Everything's off limits to them, but they're around it all the time. Being around it, they're also doing it all the time.

Little Thunder: That's great. What was the first Native art show you entered, then, competitive show?

Levi: I guess, like, Red Earth. I don't know how long it's been. It's been a while. I think it was Red Earth for, like, all Natives. Beforehand, I used to go to a set of different conventions like the National Indian Gaming Association meetings and stuff like that. I used to set up a booth there, but I think Red Earth's probably one the first Indian markets because it was local and just giving it a whirl.

Little Thunder: What was an early award that you feel like's been kind of important to your career?

Levi: I guess I got First Place in Diverse Arts one time at Red Earth a while back. It was cool. Got recognized for that, recognition, name in the paper, a little monetary award. It was cool. It all went right back into the art like it always does.

Little Thunder: How popular was ledger art when you started painting in that format?

Levi: It really wasn't, I guess you could say. There were a few back when I first started doing ledger art myself. You didn't see very many people doing it. The people that were doing it are people that are historically tied to it: the Cheyennes, the Arapahos, or the Sioux, not like now. There's people that are off-tribes, I guess we could say, that have nothing to do historically that are doing it, a lot of people, some Navajos and other people, Blackfeet, and stuff like that. They were pictured in our ledger art, but our people taking them out and killing them and stuff like that. Now they're doing the art, but there wasn't very many doing it back then. There's people like Frank Sheridan was doing ledger art, Don Montileaux up north. There's a Arapaho man from Wyoming that's doing it, and I knew Gordon was trying his hand at it and stuff like that, but not too many.

Little Thunder: What distinguishes your approach to ledger art maybe from that of your peers?

Levi: I try not to copy out of a book like a lot of the people do. I go to some of these art markets, and there's just a lot of stuff that's out of a book or offline. There's a lot of people out there that don't know their designs, whatever. As a Cheyenne, I want any art that I do, want it to be as a Cheyenne, be seen as a Cheyenne. Like Merlin's [Little Thunder], I want a Cheyenne to be able to recognize a Cheyenne's art. I'm not going to borrow from some of the other tribes. My art, there's a story behind each one I try to do and has to do with being Cheyenne, either being a military side, society ways, or the family life, or the life of a Cheyenne back then. Even today I try to do that. As for some of my peers, some of those guys out there doing ledger art, they're touching on religious stuff. I am never going to touch that because that's sacred to us, but there's a lot of people that are doing that.

There's some contemporary guys at El Reno that do ledger art that are doing scenes of Sun Dance and piercings and stuff like that. I don't touch it myself. I strive to be unique in my own way. Like I said, I'm not going to borrow like some people. There's a lot of people that borrow stuff, because I'll do my ledger art and have it in the market. Come down next market, and I'll see something that looks exactly like mine. I try not to ever borrow. I look at my own family's history or look at our people's history and I go from there with it. I don't want to be like anybody else, ledger-art-wise. I want to be unique in the stuff I do, the things I do, the scenes I do. I don't want to be the generic same old, same old like 99 percent of the ledger art that is out there now. They're doing the same stuff. One person does it; everybody else'll do it. I don't want to be like that because I see myself as Cheyenne, and as a Cheyenne we're special. That's the way I see myself. I don't want be like everybody else.

Little Thunder: Sometimes the hardest part of art is the business aspect. How did you figure out that part, the pricing of your work, for example?

Levi: Let's see. The business aspect of being an artist, it's really complex, but at the same time it's really simple, going over, making sure I'm keeping good records. Making sure you got your taxes in order, that's the main thing. Building a good (what do you call it, with your people?) your clientele, yeah, 15:00especially with the collectors, staying in touch with them. Like last week I did this show in Washington, DC, for the Smithsonian, and the opening night, Friday night, I go back to the motel and check my e-mail. I got five e-mails from collectors out of New York City. They said, "We were looking for you, and you're in DC." It's just like that.

It's staying on top of everything. That's the main thing, trying not to let nothing slide and always looking at what market, what's good, what market that's not good, and picking and choosing. That's the main thing: staying on top of everything. There's a lot of aspects to look at business-wise. It took me years and years and years, and I'm still learning the game, learning how to deal with 16:00all this every time because every market is different. I guess the economy fluctuates and everything like that. Sometimes I have to raise my prices. Sometimes I have to drop it. The main thing is making sure I cover my costs, making sure I have enough money to buy materials and enter the markets, and motel and everything. It all adds up.

Little Thunder: How many markets do you do typically?

Levi: Let's see. I usually do the Heard, do Red Earth, Indian Market Santa Fe, and the Smithsonian. Those are the main ones I do. I also do Haskell and the Wichita Indian Art Market. That's about it, about six markets a year.

Little Thunder: Yeah, that's a lot.

Levi: Yeah, it is.

Little Thunder: What's the best business advice you've gotten either from another artist or--

Levi: Best business advice I got from another artist is, "Keep going. Don't give up." That's basically it. The market's down, you go look forward. There's always going to be somebody else down the line. One of my buddies, his name's Gary Roybal, who I shared a booth with, time to time. He's from Santa Fe but he lives in [Pueblo of] Isleta. We're hunting buddies, and we talk about stuff like that. Don't give up. That's the best advice I ever got.

Little Thunder: What's the best compliment you've sort of gotten on your artwork?

Levi: Best compliment I ever got is just when people look at my art and they start crying. They look at it, and they start thinking about how Cheyennes lived back in the day. They say, "Your art is one of kind, different from other ledger artists, because ledger artists do pretty much the same stuff where you're telling the real story." That's pretty much the best I ever got. That's pretty much like the best compliment to ever get like that. At almost every market, people will say that, wherever I go to. They'll look at my art and say it's so full of everything, the detail. That's the way I try to do it. That's basically it.

Little Thunder: What kinds of gallery representation do you have at the moment?

Levi: Gallery-wise, it's just basically Tribes 131 down there. I have one piece up there at Pierson's up there in Tulsa. Nevaquaya Arts up there, they have a couple pieces of mine. Buffalo Chips Gallery in Billings, Montana, has my work. Let's see. In Santa Fe they have some of my work there. They have a gift shop there in Santa Fe. I think the Heard's got a piece. The Smithsonian National 20:00Museum of the American Indian, they carry my work. I did have some work at--there used to be a gallery in Guthrie, but she's closed down now. Let me think. Native American Trading Company now in Denver. I have a couple, two or three pieces, at my buddy's place up there at Custer Battlefield Trading Post there at Crow Agency [Montana]. My buddy Mike Thompson, I think he has a couple pieces of my work there. That's pretty much it.

Little Thunder: You've been pretty innovative, I think, in the kinds of paper that you use as a background for your ledger art, like sheets of music or an old check or something. Then when you see those images on there, it creates all 21:00these associations. I was wondering what comes first: if you have the image in mind and you're then looking for the right paper for it, or vice versa.

Levi: It basically goes with the paper. The dates, where it's from, a lot of it does with the size. I came across a paper out of Montana last year, so I did scenes basically with, like, what would be Northern Cheyennes. I've come across some paper out of Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, and I did more of the Southern Cheyenne stuff on that. Some of the checks I come across, if they're, I like to 22:00say, period, like 1850 to 1870s, I'll do good scenes on those. Same thing with the old antique hymnals I come across. With those I will take the song title, and I would go do a scene according to the titles of those. It just varies, the dates and the locations of where the ledgers come out of.

Little Thunder: One of the misperceptions about flat-style art was that it was easy to do and it was fast. Sometimes they think that's also a fast style. That's a misperception sometimes about ledger art.

Levi: Yeah, a lot of people come up to me, "How long did that take you to make?" That's a common question I get. Any given market, I get asked about fifty times 23:00a market. It's telling a story over and over and over. Some pieces, I guess, if I just want to do a straight black and white drawing, it can be done in a hour, but most of the pieces take a couple days. Some take weeks; some take a month. It just depends on how many people I put in there, and the detail, what kind of scene and whatnot. Especially with the type of paint I use or the media that I'm using, it varies. I guess some people think that this 2-D art, this flat style, they think it goes fast, but me, I like to put depth into it myself, backgrounds behind it. I put all that stuff, a lot of stuff into it. It all takes time, especially with these paints. They bleed. They'll bleed onto each other, so I 24:00take my time. Takes a lot of time.

Little Thunder: You're talking about watercolor, then?

Levi: Watercolors, gouache, some of the watered-downed acrylics I'll do, or the specialty India inks. That's what I'm talking about. They'll run. Sometimes I've done some basically wet on wet, watercolors on ledger paper. They take about four or five hours, not too long, but that goes fast. If you've got a deal like that, you do them fast, anyway. It's a misconception because it's not like grabbing crayons and filling it in. Everything I do, I do freehand. I'm not like a lot of the other artists I know that use tracing, use those machines. There's 25:00a lot of guys out there that do that. Me, if you're an artist, do it. Do it by hand. Don't use a tracing machine, a projector. There's a lot of people that use projectors out there in the ledger art game now. I know it because they're just too damn precise, the stuff they do. Hey, if that's what they think art is, that's on them.

Little Thunder: You had a solo show at Southern Plains Indian Museum in 2010. What did that mean to you?

Levi: That was really, really, really cool when I was contacted about that. It was good, being a solo show like that because I grew up going there all the time when I was a kid. My grandma would sell beadwork there, and my mom would sell 26:00beadwork there. We would go down there, and they'd have all this art up there all the time. It was really big to me because it was my first solo show and it was funded by the Department of the Interior. They made a really big deal out of it. It was good. Got a lot of publicity. It was all about my art, too, so that was a plus. They didn't just show my paintings. They showed my rawhide art, and they had my beadwork in there. They had all different kind of stuff I did, and it was really cool because I could go online and see it. I could share a link with a bunch of collectors of people that I knew. It was really cool. It meant a lot to me.

Little Thunder: How many pieces did you have in there?

Levi: I think I had about four or five beadwork pieces. Had some leggings that I 27:00did, pipe bags, and moccasins that I'd done, full-beaded moccasins. I had--I want to say eight, ten painted pieces. Then I had some rawhide cases that I done, flat cases, and cylinder cases. I think there was probably fifteen or so, fifteen or twenty pieces. It was really good.

Little Thunder: That's a lot of work.

Levi: They had it all spread out, yeah. It was really, really good.

Little Thunder: What's something that you feel is sometimes difficult to communicate with your art?

Levi: With my art, some things that's hard to communicate to people is, like, the beadwork, the designs. Some of these designs that I use are family designs 28:00we have. They're in my family. I'll put those out there. See my grandma, we look at them like we own them. You go somewhere and see somebody else using designs, the same designs, later on. That's kind of hard to communicate. You want to tell other people, say, "Hey, don't be using those designs." Another thing is like my art, just like the ledger art, every piece is unique. Each story, everything is different, but I put so much detail into a lot of my work. Somebody, they'll ask me, "What's this, this, this?" I could spend two or three hours just on one 29:00piece. It takes a lot of time to describe what my meaning is. I could tell them real bluntly, but then they want to know this, and this, and this, and why, why, why, why. Sometimes I wish I could tell them, "It's just a piece of art," but there's always a meaning behind it.

Little Thunder: More to it.

Levi: Sometimes the people that are not around Cheyennes, they don't know nothing about Cheyennes, they think I'm making this stuff up. I think that's the hardest thing to explain to them. Like ledger art, I tell them that it started in the 1850s. They want to believe it all started out in Fort Marion 1875, '76. There's a lot of stuff out there, you could say. It's hard to explain to people. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How much of your business, then, comes from commissions, and how much comes from booth shows, and how much from galleries, roughly?

Levi: I really, really do not rely on galleries that much because I don't visit the galleries too much. Commissions, I take commissions, I wouldn't say all the time, but I do get a lot of commission work. I'm usually going all the time with commission work, but I tend to rely on, for majority of my sales, from markets. 31:00I'd say within a week or two weeks after every market, then I'll start getting a flurry of e-mails or getting calls. "Do you still have this piece?" "No, I don't." "Can you replicate a piece like that for me?" It's like that. "I should've bought it then." It was like the other day I had this guy e-mail me from out of Maryland. He said, "I was trying to buy this piece. I wanted to buy a piece off you, but my girlfriend was right there. Can you please send it to me?" He said, "I need it overnight. I need it now, by Friday." Just like that. I really don't rely on galleries too much because when I'm in galleries there's a competition. There's so many other twenty, thirty, forty other artists out there, and there's always somebody wanting something. They'll see something else. Markets are best for me.

Little Thunder: Like when he wanted that expedited, mailed real fast, was it 32:00because it was for his girlfriend and she wanted it?

Levi: (Laughs) Yeah, that's why he wanted it.

Little Thunder: What a great surprise!

Levi: He'd come over there, and she'd be in line with him. He'd put that piece back, and he came by my booth like ten times that one day.

Little Thunder: That's neat. Can you talk a little bit about--you've done some illustrations for Cheyenne children that are in the public school system--

Levi: Oh, okay.

Little Thunder: --Indian Education, I guess.

Levi: I think it was in 2007 I seen an advertisement in the tribal paper, or 2008. Said they were looking for artists. There was a project coming, (I didn't know what it was) so I threw my hat in the ring. I had done a lot of work with 33:00my bro Funston, Funston Whiteman. He got in touch with me after I submitted some artwork, pictures and stuff like that. He told me that they were going to do some books for our kids, our Cheyenne and our Arapaho kids. He selected me as an artist to do work in the book. Actually he selected me and my uncle Vernon Bullcoming. He did one piece for one cover for the Cheyennes, and selected my cousin Brent Learned for the Arapahos. They gave us everything, what Funston had wrote, and he said go with it and do some drawings according to all this and that, so I did that. I thought it was long overdue because they're saying it's 34:00integrated into the public school system for our kids out West.

We grew up, we didn't hear nothing about no Indian. Something like that, even in Oklahoma history we never heard anything about the Indians. It was just like, "Boomer Sooner, land run, blah, blah, blah. Let's celebrate that manifest destiny," and stuff like that. I thought it was an excellent idea for it because our kids need to know who they are. A lot of us grew up, the way we grew up, we know who we are. There's a lot of kids out there that don't, that are kind of lost out there. It's good to integrate some of the traditional stories and some of the language, how to say whatnot in our language and stuff like that. It's good to teach these kids, let them hit the ground running from when they're little. Happy and proud to be part of it because it needs to happen. I was talking to Funston about a month ago, and he said they may be gearing back up to do it again. He wants me back on there again.

Little Thunder: Great.

Levi: I told him, "Not a problem, sure. Be happy to do that."

Little Thunder: So the title was in Cheyenne and Arapaho, I think, maybe not, but Cheyenne language in the book, as well?

Levi: I think so. I think so. They had some stuff in there. Funston went around to different folks, different elders, and stuff like that, interviewed them and took the language part. I think he took some stuff out one of the [Reverend] Rudolph Petter books and stuff like that, I think. He did a pretty good job putting it all together.

Little Thunder: You've also taught art, I guess, for Cheyenne Arapaho kids during the summer through the C and A tribe, and also in Busby, Montana.

Levi: Yeah.

Little Thunder: You want to talk about one or two teaching--

Levi: Over the years, not only our kids, I've done some workshops with our tribal elders and our youth. One year I went out to the Frisco Center, and I worked with the elder program. I did rawhide work with Cheyenne and Arapaho designs, explained the designs to them, and, man, we made a lot of stuff. I've done a lot of work with different school kids, different school systems, Crooked Oaks Schools here in Oklahoma City. I've done some work with Moore Public Schools. I've been asked to do work here with Mustang where my kids go to school at. Done some presentations on Native Americans, specifically Cheyenne Arapahos. I have done some art classes with our kids, our Cheyenne Arapaho kids. It's always something I wanted to do as an artist, is give back to our kids because we didn't have that when we was growing up. It was kind of hard when your parents could barely afford to feed you sometimes, but now stuff is more readily available for their kids. The way I see it, kids are like sponges right now at this age.

I did a three-day workshop in Watonga back in July, I believe, or August. First day, it was ledger art, a whole day of creating ledger art. I told them how it started amongst the Cheyenne and spread. We did ledger art. I took old ledger books and took them apart, and they did their own ledger art. Second day we did rawhide. They made rawhide boxes and cylinder cases and whatever they wanted, flat cases. Each one of them made about three or four apiece. Third day we did watercolors the first morning, for the morning, first half. Second half we did acrylics. Doing stuff, busting stuff out on canvas and some on watercolor paper. It was awesome! I had twenty-something, thirty-something kids. I had kids from Seiling, Hammond, Clinton, Thomas, Deer Creek, Geary, Concho, Watonga, of course, Kingfisher. Had kids come as far away from Mustang, Norman, Mustang and Oklahoma City, and they all came together as one, Cheyenne Arapaho kids learning art.

Then the first weekend in November along with my son, Harding, we traveled to Montana, to our Northern Cheyenne Res. I did a three-day class on ledger art at the Northern Cheyenne Tribal School in Busby. There were evening classes, and I taught the kids. Not only kids, I had adults. I had grandmothers, moms, dads. They all come in there. They were just soaking it up. I showed them Northern Cheyenne ledger books, drawings by the Northern Cheyennes online. Man, these kids, they did some great art. The plus thing with that when I do the ledger art classes, I also take my mat cutters. I take foam board. I'll take sleeves. I'll cut foam board, like, 11" by 14", and I'll cut mats 11" by 14", and I'll teach them how to do all that. Then I'll teach them how to cut mats, and we'll mat the art up.

We'll use acid-free mat, acid-free mat paper, acid-free tape, and we'll put them in a sleeve. It's ready to go, so they can go buy a readymade either 8" by 10" or 11" by 14" readymade frame at Wal-Mart, and they'll stick them on the thing. In Montana, I donated a lot of, I spent like $250 of my own money to buy art supplies, and I just gave it to them. Those kids up there, they're ready to enter all their ledger art into their state fairs and all these art contests. Next time I go up there, I told Ann King, (she's a art teacher there) I told her I was going to bring some stuff up there because they're having a hard time getting funding for their art. In her classroom there's ceiling tiles missing, and they don't--. She thought I had all the fancy stuff just because I took them stuff I have. I'm working on taking a lot of stuff up there next time I go back up there.

Little Thunder: Wow, that's wonderful. As I mentioned, you are one of the artists participating in this art show in conjunction with the Sand Creek Commemoration. I wondered if you can tell us a little bit about how this show came about.

Levi: Okay. I have a cousin; I have a relative. His name is Bill Tall Bull, Richard Tall Bull's son. He lives up there in Denver. He's one of my relatives. He's half Northern Cheyenne, and he's half Southern Cheyenne. His dad, (we call him Dopey) he lives up in Ashland. I see his dad all the time. I see Richard. I see Bill all the time, too, stay in contact on Facebook and phone. So he called me January, February. We were just talking. He said, "Hey, man, you know that Sand Creek is coming up here, 150 years. Maybe you ought to do something about it. You're a kickass artist. Put some stuff together. You're a society man. You know all this background." I said, "Okay, I'll be in touch with you later on." He said, "Something needs to be done by Cheyennes. Everything else comes from everybody else." Long story short, I got in touch with my relative Brent. Told him, I said, "Hey, man, this year's 150 years, Sand Creek." He said, "Well?" I said, "Let's get some guys together." He said, "What about Merlin? He's both of our relatives." I said, "Yeah, let's get Merlin." He said, "I'll contact him. Who else, you think?" I said, "There's a guy out there I know out west named B. J. [Stepp]. He's kind of rough, but he does some good stuff. He's got all the talent in the world. We just need to mold him a little bit." He said, "All right. Who else?" I said, "I don't know. Try to think of somebody else because there's so many guys out there."

Little Thunder: Right.

Levi: So we thought about Nate [Nathan Hart]. He says, "He does a little different media than everything else." We called around, asked around, and we said, "Let's do this from our own perspective as Cheyennes or Arapaho and as descendants." We all know that art is powerful. Especially if we do something along those kind of lines, it's going to really open some eyes for not only the people in Colorado but our people. We can use that as a tool to help educate people on a subject that's been kind of hush-hush for a long time, especially with those people in Colorado. A lot of people don't want to admit what happened. We said, "Might be kind of heavy, some of the stuff we do. Might not be pretty, but we're just going to tell a story, give those people a voice," because, like we said, everything else came from historians or some experts. We wanted to tell it from our own standpoint because we, all of us, had folks that lost their life when they got hit up there. We all grew up (I know I did) hearing stories about the folks that lived and folks that died up there, our bloodlines.

I went up there. After we had already got the guys together, our core group, I went up there in May. I had been asked to be head gourd dancer at the Denver University commencement powwow. They were having a special for Sand Creek. I went up there with my cousin Max Bear. There's a John Evans study group that was going to have a meeting up there. I said, "I'm going to go up there and tell them what we're going to do because I know Gail Ridgely and those guys, Arapahos, are going to be there." Henry Little Bird, Arapaho, is from down here. NAGPRA [Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act] guys, Karen Little Coyote, I knew they're going to be there, Cheyenne Arapaho reps, and I also knew that little Otto, my bud, Otto Braided Hair was going to be there. I know him from ceremonies in Montana. I knew he was going to be there, so I went up there to tell them. I didn't ask them for their permission. I went up there and told them, I said, "I'm a Cheyenne man. I'm a descendent of that thing that happened. We're getting men together down there, and we're going to do an art project."

I said, "I'm not asking for your permission. I'm telling you what we're going to do because we're going to put it out there. Some people may not like it, but we're going to put it out there because it's going to come from us." Otto said, "Yeah," and those guys, "do it. You guys do what you got to do. Somebody's got to tell it." That's how it all came together. I was up there, and I talked with a girl, Anne Amati, worked with DU, and I talked with Nancy Wadsworth. They're all affiliated with DU. Brent had talked with what's his name up there at Denver Art Museum. It all fell into place. Somehow they got a little funding for us for that one at Denver Art Museum, and they're going to do it again. We're also looking at--I think we met a lady with Colorado University last week. She talked about maybe wanting to have us up there at CU sometime, I guess after this settlement's up. It was just a brief encounter. We got to get with Merlin, Brent, and me together. I don't know if these other guys are going to pan out.

Little Thunder: Right. I know it was very powerful for the audience. I'm thinking it was probably powerful for you guys, too.

Levi: Yeah. When we did the art thing? Yeah, it was. We touched on the art we did; we touched on subjects that we really touched on. You've seen them in the old ledger drawings. You've seen those kind of scenes out there. The art that we brought out, it made us think about them people that woke up that morning not knowing that they was going to die, not knowing it was going to be their last time to wake up. Makes you think about these stories that we heard growing up, about how my grandma's grandma, running, and this man picked her up, picked her up, put her on a horse, and rode off with her while her folks got shot. Brings that reality that you can pick up a book and read about Sand Creek. Three hundred-plus Cheyennes died there, but the way they died and how they--to prolong all day, things that happened to them, how the little kids didn't know what's happening to them or what them people, happened to them. It was hard to put it out there, and it still is. It's hard to talk about it. I got choked up when I was talking on it that day. A lot of people shed tears that day. Same thing, it's like what happened today over in Pakistan.

What happened today is the same thing that happened to our people back then. Those kids woke up today, went to school. Those people came in and just indiscriminately killed them. Same thing happened 150 years ago to our people. I guess this exhibit we're doing is making people think. I think everybody has to come to their own conclusion about what happened, but there's not just going to be pick it up, 300 people died. They're going to know how they died, plus at the same time they're also going to know there's people out there that day that did things, got away. They're also going to know about Silas Soule because, honestly, I believe that if it wasn't for Silas Soule and these other guys not shooting, I probably won't be here, Merlin, all of us. There's a lot of Cheyennes that wouldn't be here. If those guys wanted to fire on us, they would've probably killed everybody that day. Stuff like that, not just the evil man, [John] Chivington, but people like Silas Soule. I did a piece on him, A Man with a Good Heart. Our people looked up--they honored him up there. The things we did was heavy, but I think we did it because it needed to be done.

Little Thunder: Right. Let's talk about your creative techniques and process a little more. You've already mentioned some of the media you use for your ledger art, etcetera, but you've done some work with hide as you mentioned. What are 35:00some of the challenges of that and what kinds of--

Levi: The hides?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Levi: There's just so much. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Including getting it, right?

Levi: Yeah, I brain tan. I know how to brain tan. I brain tan some stuff.

Little Thunder: Oh, you do your own brain tanning?

Levi: Yeah, I'll do some of that stuff. In fact, I've got a brain-tanned elk hide in my garage I'm fixing to do some work on. Working with hide's kind of hard because it's porous. Sometimes I paint--you have to rough it up a little bit. It won't really stick to it. It'll kind of flake off or something like that, especially if I'm dealing with rawhide. It depends on what kind, if I buy commercial rawhide or if I make my own. It's still kind of a hard thing to do. 36:00Again, because the paints I have to use, I have to make it really heavy because sometimes it won't stick very good.

Little Thunder: And it's acrylic that you're using?

Levi: Yeah, I use acrylics. Mainly when I do the rawhide, I'll probably use acrylics, but I also use watercolors, like a Dr. Martin watercolors. I'll use those on there, but sometimes I got to rough them up a little bit and make sure, almost like incise it, the design in, and then come back in, crosshatching and stuff like that on the rawhide. Some of the hide paintings I do, it goes on sometimes real good, but sometimes I got to be careful--because unless I seal it 37:00really good, it'll tend to smear.

Little Thunder: In terms of the paper backgrounds that you use, that must be quite a search. Do you search for the right materials?

Levi: Really for the ledger paper I get, I don't look for it. I don't. It comes to me mainly through collectors or people who just show up with it. I got a buddy out of New Mexico, he's a Blackfoot guy, and he lives west of--. He's always got ledger books. He'll call me up or e-mail me, "Hey, I'll be here. I'll meet you at Indian Market, and I'm going to bring so and so." Or he'll call me when he's coming through town. "Hey, I've got some stuff. Let's do some trading." Usually I'll get a call or e-mail. Somebody'll say, "Hey, I got a 38:00ledger book. I've got a couple ledger books. Can you give me one of your originals?" It's like that. I'll give them an original, and they'll give me two or three books. I got a buddy named Michael Jordan; he's a professor down at Texas Tech. He's always on the prowl for stuff like that. He's always bringing me paper.

Little Thunder: That's great. We haven't talked about the fact that you like to use Cheyenne language in the titles of your paintings.

Levi: Yeah, I will. A lot of my stuff, if I'm doing women, or men, or like a family-type scene, I'll include--. I've done a couple pieces say Mo'eheso, Little Elk. That's my daughter's name. Or I'll put Haa'hae'ameohtse. Walks With 39:00the Wind Woman is my daughter Helson's name. I'll put Megehetem. Meadow Woman. That's my wife's name. Or else I'll put my name or put somebody else's, my grandpa's name or somebody else's name in there, or else I'll put something in Cheyenne. If they're fighting Pawnees, I'll put it in Cheyenne. I'll put some language in there. That way they'll know that a Cheyenne did it. If somebody wants to come along and copy my art, they won't know when I'm sitting out there.

Whoever's going to buy it or gets it from me, I tell them exactly what it means and why I did it, stuff like that, why I put a name on there in Cheyenne. Everything I do is, my art, it's all Cheyenne, I try to do, even though I'm part Arapaho. I'll get asked to do some Arapaho scenes, and I'm also part Oglala on 40:00my mother's side. Every now and then I'll get somebody who likes my art. They'll say, "Can you kick out an Oglala scene?" I'll kick one out maybe once a year, but mostly it has to do with the Cheyenne. That's how I was raised, being around Cheyennes. I want to do Cheyenne art.

Little Thunder: You do a lot of family images. I think that is one thing that makes your work different.

Levi: Yeah, I'll do the pieces on men, but the core thing of being Cheyenne is that we hold our women as sacred, the way I know it. Our kids are sacred. Our 41:00women are sacred because they bring everything into this life and into this world. That's why these men, back in the day, that's why they were warriors. They did it for their--. They went out and took all this--they fought these other people. They kicked these other people off their land, and they took their territories. They fought the military. That way their family could be taken care of. They did all that stuff so they can have food. I wouldn't say food on their table because they didn't have tables, but so they could feed their family. That's basically what it boils down to. All of that was just being a Cheyenne back then and the scenes they did, how they lived. It all boiled down to their family, taking care of their kids, taking care of their extended family, taking 42:00care of their wife. All that stuff they went through, these men they sacrificed their lives basically for the growth of their people, tsiihistano, our people, you know and stuff like that. That's what it's all about, návóohest, my relations. That's what it's all about.

Little Thunder: How about your signature? Sometimes it's hard to come up with a signature for an artist.

Levi: When I sign it, I put George Curtis Levi. I used to put George Levi, but I put Curtis on there, and I put Cheyenne on there. I started adding the Curtis after my dad died five years ago. That was his name, Curtis. I was named after him. At the same time, I'm out of a family that's just Curtis family, real big 43:00family. I'm out of Bents, and there's Curtis, and there's Burns, that whole group. I always put that Curtis because people always saying, "You're a Curtis. You're out of that Curtis family! That's why you're named Curtis!" I put it on there, Curtis Levi, because they say I'm named after George Curtis, stuff like that. I just sign it George Curtis Levi, and I'll put Cheyenne. That's why I put it out there. There's people that at least they know me now, who I am.

Little Thunder: What's your creative process starting with how you get an idea?

Levi: I'll just sit there. I read a lot of the history. I've tried to know as much as I can of our people's struggles, where they come from in Canada, where 44:00they come across the Great Lakes and our creation stories, everything like that, and how Erect Horns brought us the Sacred Hat and those things that go with that. How Sweet Medicine brought us those arrows, and how everything, how our people came together as Suhtai and Cheyenne, Tsitsistas, how they come together and how our men lived before that and what Sweet Medicine brought us, and our societies. Then I read about--. I try to listen to where we ranged, who we encountered, and what we did back then. They traveled in ten bands. They were all over the place.

They were living. Women were giving birth, and they were raising their kids on the move all the time. They were constantly on the go. It's not like now. We live in a home. We can go to the grocery store and get food. Back then they had to worry about enemies, they had to worry about feeding their families, and usually their extended families, every day. They had to know where the water was, know where the wood was, and everything, buffalo chips, whatever they used. They had it tough, but at the same time, the way they dressed, the way they carried themselves, they knew they were dominant. They knew they were the ones, the force to be reckoned with. Everybody knew who Cheyennes were back then. It must've been hard to be a Pawnee or be a Kiowa before they made peace, or be 46:00Shoshone, or Crow, or be somebody knowing that there's Cheyennes out there.

The Cheyenne's are usually going to come and get you and push you out of the way because they wanted this. Them people, they're proud. They didn't have much, but they had everything. It's just everything all boils into one. I try to envision about what they went through, how they lived, and I try to put it out there. Maybe one scene, maybe I've got little girls out there playing, and what they did, how they had their animals, or how they made their animals, or how they were dressed, or how they had their little tipis. Sometimes I've done some 47:00scenes where little boys are coming in on stick horses, and they're messing with those kids. It's the Cheyenne life in general. There's all different kinds of aspects to it. There's wintertime, springtime, summer, fall, weather, everything. I try to put it all in because every day was a new day and everything was different, I guess you could say.

I try to think about that and think about how I was raised and how everything was struggles, and I know they had struggles. There was war and everything, everything out there. There was good times and bad times. That's what I always try to put together. I've been doing one scene, done a couple times, it's called New Life. Shows a Cheyenne woman holding a cradleboard. The reason I did that 48:00showing--there's a couple, two, three, other people on this side. Her and her husband and her daughters on this side, and a little boy in a cradleboard. I tell people the reason I did that is because our people lived in bands. The only time they come together was either for Arrow Renewal, the Sun Dance, religious ceremonies, or time of war. It shows them when they come back together. They're showing a new baby that was born when they were off. That's what I try to show. It's not just generic battle scenes or generic buffalo like a lot of people do. I try to cover everything except for religious ceremonies. I'm not going to touch those.

Little Thunder: You've got a lot more years to go in your career, but looking back from this moment, what was an important fork in the road when you could've 49:00gone one way and you chose to go another?

Levi: In life or in art?

Little Thunder: Either one.

Levi: Either one? I think one main thing is I always wanted to be in the military. I was eighteen, nineteen years old--I cut my hand real bad when I was sixteen. I was making a gourd, and I cut my ligaments in my fingers. I did it in Geary; barely made it to Watonga, man. (Laughs) We made it to the ER in Watonga, and I bled out really bad. My dad was always onto me, "You need to go in the 50:00Army. Go in the Army and see the world." I tried to enlist a couple times. I did everything in the MEPS [Military Entrance Processing Station]. I got one bad joint right here in my finger, and they would never let me sign the paper. Then I also had a little hearing loss in my left ear, and they would never let me take it. That's one fork in the road. That's one because I see it now. If I would've went in when Desert Storm and everything was going on, I would've been in right at the same time. There's no telling what would've happened.

I see a bunch of my bros that went over there and come back have a hard time dealing with things. That's one fork. I don't know if I would've done that how I 51:00would be now. I don't know if I'd be an artist now or not because I see, like I said, some of my buds had a hard time readjusting. That's it. Art-wise, I think I could've been like some of these people out there, not knowing how to take that first step in art. There's a lot of people out there. There's a lot of people that are talented, way more talented than I am, out here in our communities. I can go to any community out there, and I'll see these guys that do great art, but they just don't know how to get started. That's, I guess, a fork that I took. I took a chance, with my wife's backing. I took a chance 52:00trying to get out there.

She was always saying, "Man, you do some great art." I had people say, "You do great art. You need to be out there." I didn't know where to go, how to go about it. I'd go to these little galleries, and they'd take my art. People were saying, "You need to do these markets, your stuff." I was being afraid. Being rejected was something that I was afraid of at first, but then my wife said, and some other people, some other artists said, "You got to keep on going because sometimes it takes three or four times before you're going to get accepted into a market. You got to keep on pushing. You got to keep on pushing." I guess I was 53:00willing to be turned down a few times, but I wanted to keep on striving because I wanted to make it. I knew somehow, some way, I was going to make it in this art stuff. When I go around these art markets, people come up to me, and they're asking me all kinds of advice. "How do you do this? How do you that? Well, you're George, and you're way up there!"

I'm saying, "I'm just an ordinary old country boy from Oklahoma, from northwest Oklahoma, and you guys are trying to say I'm way up here." I'm just glad that I had people pushing me. My wife pushed me, and my bros pushed me. Then I look at these other guys, and I see, like, Merlin and Brent. I've always seen their stuff in those calendars for all these years. I see those guys. Man, just seeing 54:00these guys out there, these different artists out there that are top-notch artists, just being able to be put in the same categories as these other guys out there--. Say when I go do market at Santa Fe, or do the Heard, or do the Smithsonian, people they come up to me and say, "Man, give me some advice. You've been in the Smithsonian for all these years, and they sell your stuff there." I'm saying, "I'm just like you. You got to do trial and error. You guys want my secrets? I'm not going to tell you. You're going to have to do it on your own." That's two forks.

I don't know what could've happened if I would've went into the military because the US Army would've said, "Yeah, you're good to go," because right when I was trying to enlist, right after that, Saddam invaded Kuwait. Then my bros went 55:00over there, Cornell. A bunch of my bros went over there. I'm glad to see they're okay and they're doing good, but sometimes--. I've done a lot of work with vets, guys that come back from Iraq and Kuwait. I did a lot of work with guys from Vietnam, helping them out and just different stuff. They went through a lot of stuff. I don't know what would've happened if I went that fork. This other fork that I took, art-wise, it's just blossomed. I feel fortunate, the things that have came my way. I made my own steps. I really didn't have to rely on anybody with being carried by my wife, my family, and people. Especially my own people, 56:00they supported me.

It just turned out good. Now I'm just kind of recognized at these different places. I got people that collect my artwork from all over the world, China, all over Eastern Asia, Asia, Kuwait, Dubai, Europe, and all over the United States. People got my art. It's really amazing because I never envisioned myself as an artist and I still don't, really. I don't want to call myself an artist. This is just what I do. I don't know. I get excited by these things, being able to do 57:00these things because it's my own creativity comes out and people like it. They see what I try to envision in my mind, and I put down on paper or on canvas, or if I'm beading or something like that. They think it's just the best. I don't know. It could be good. It could be they may be blind. I don't know. As a person, it's cool.

Little Thunder: Well, we're going to look at a couple examples of your work here. Is there anything we forgot to talk about before we do?

Levi: Okay. Let me grab a couple pieces of work, and I'll show you. I'll grab a piece of my beadwork, and I'll grab a couple pieces of ledger art.

Little Thunder: Great.

Levi: This piece is called Fort Reno Indian Territory. That deals with Cheyenne 58:00Arapaho after we were forced to settle out here in western Oklahoma after the Red River War, 1875. It deals with pretty much a lot of the Cheyenne history, Southern Cheyenne predominantly but also Northern Cheyenne after Little Big Horn, after those guys were forced down here. It shows the North Canadian River on the backside where the trees are. It shows an encampment down here. Could be Arapaho; could be Southern Cheyenne. Shows the railroad. It shows the actual fort itself, and it shows some troopers, US Cavalry guys on horses. It also at the same time shows either a Cheyenne or Arapaho mother looking on. This fort was established to protect the Cheyenne Arapahos. That's what they say. They're 59:00just put out here to make sure we behaved, I guess you could say. That deals with the--. They took land from us, from our tribe, and they established that reservation out there on the land. We still haven't got it back. Our people are still trying to get it back. That's why I did that piece. Now it's a tourist place.

Little Thunder: All right, great.

Levi: This one is called Girl Talk. It's done on almost like a 12" by 12", 12" by 14" paper. It shows Cheyenne girls being girls. It didn't matter, you know, girls being a girl. It transcends everything. It doesn't matter if you're Cheyenne, you're Arapaho, if you're Caucasian, or Latino. If you're a teenager, you're a teenager. You've got girls out there going after water, and they see their friends. It could be their friends, or their cousins, or their sisters, 60:00whatever, whatnot. They could be out there talking about boys, could be talking about cooking, how we cook this or that, or complaining about their mom and dad making them do things. You got the camp in the background and just got these girls. One's got a elk hide with a battle scene on there, maybe her dad or her boyfriend or whatever. Next one shows, like, a Navajo chief's blanket. Next one's got a design on it that the Arapahos and Cheyennes and the western bands of Sioux used. Next one shows another hide with buffalos on there. They were all powerful, with a lot of our--. Got suns on there. The next one shows a blue blanket with a beaded blanket strip on there. It's just girls out there, being girls. That's what that is: Girl Talk.

This one is on a piece of paper that come out Tuskegee, Alabama. I think the 61:00date on it is 1919. I titled it Nemehot. It means "I love you" in Cheyenne. What I told my wife, was me and her. It shows a Cheyenne woman with a elk-tooth dress. Could be antelope hide dress, deer hide, whatever. Full, painted yellow, got a chief's Navajo-style Second Phase blanket around her waist. Shows her man, her husband. It would have to be her husband because they wouldn't dare be caught like that, courting by themselves. It shows a man. He's got yellow paint on him on his face. He's got a breastplate, got those little najas, whatever they call them, those silver ornaments, armbands, also hanging off his 62:00breastplate. Loose leggings, breechcloth, Cheyenne moccasins all the way, Cheyenne headdress. The thing hanging off below it would be like a mountain lion hide with those spots on it. That's what it is. It shows a Cheyenne man and his wife, the core thing of being Cheyenne, a man and his wife. That's what it shows all the way.

Little Thunder: That's really a nice piece.

Levi: The last one I'll show you is--

Little Thunder: It's a piece of beadwork, right?

Levi: --some of my beadwork.

Little Thunder: All right.

Levi: This was a birthday gift that I did for my wife. I made her a pipe bag. My wife's been through our [inaudible] long time ago, and so she needed a place, something to keep her he'ohko, [pipe] so I made that for her, classic Cheyenne 63:00design, woman-style pipe bag. That's what I made her for her birthday. I surprised her; she didn't know I made it. That was a lot of late-, late-, late-night hours when she was asleep, of working. I gave it to her for her birthday one year.

Little Thunder: Great present. Thank you very much for your time today, George.

Levi: Yeah, okay, not a problem, not a problem.

------- End of interview -------