Oral history interview with Demos Glass

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, November 21, 2014. I'm interviewing Demos Glass for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at the Glass Studio in Locust Grove [Oklahoma], where Demos shares working space with his ceramic-artist father, Bill Glass. Demos, since you started showing professionally, you've won a number of awards for your semi-abstract sculpture and mixed-media pieces at Eiteljorg [Museum], Red Earth [Indian Arts Festival], Trail of Tears [Art Show], among others. You've also collaborated with your father on a number of large public works projects, and you seem to be headed towards doing bigger and bigger sculptures at the moment. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Glass: I was born in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. I grew up right here in Locust Grove, Oklahoma. Got a football game tonight, so going to root on Locust Grove High 1:00School team tonight at the state playoff football game.Little Thunder: Good for you! I think your dad's creative influence will probably be a theme throughout the interview, but what about your influences from your mom?

Glass: My mother's been the cornerstone of the studio here and throughout. I can't even--I owe her a lot of respect and credit because she has helped us. She's a good art patron, and she's helped us make it.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Glass: I was fortunate enough to have a good relationship with my grandparents on both sides. My grandfather, he was an influence because he worked in metal.

Little Thunder: On your dad's side or your mom's?

Glass: Yeah, my grandfather, Bill Glass Sr., worked in BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs]. He set up schools and things like that for welding instruction, and then as he got older, he became a metalsmith. That's one of the really fond memories. I inherited a lot of his tools, so that's something that helped me get started. I had to learn, somewhat, what to do with them, but they were tools that I learned. The unfortunate thing is that I didn't a chance to work with him in his studio, but at the same time, I was going through school. He had passed on whenever I was in the university studying.

Little Thunder: But you have memories of seeing him work?

Glass: Yeah, absolutely. Then I got some of his pieces back and got to admire some of his pieces and actually dissect some of his pieces and try to fix some of his pieces, things like that. There was a large learning, technical learning parts because of his process. He was a good rigger. Grandpa Bill was a good rigger. My Grandma Jean, she's a wonderful lady. She taught me a lot of things about character. My mom's mom and dad, their name's Gatz. They just were very supportive art patrons, and there's been times that they really helped us 4:00through. Art patrons, there's not enough art patrons, and they're definitely good art patrons.

Little Thunder: How about growing up around the language. Did you grow up around that at all?

Glass: No, not as much as others. My grandma and grandpa, I can remember them sitting down to relearn what they could relearn as they were older. Through Grandpa going on his travels with the BIA, they might be in different states, and it just seemed like that's where it got lost right there for our family.

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of seeing Native art?

Glass: That's an interesting question for me because I can remember many, many times going to the different art shows and seeing--my idea was to see as many 5:00images as I could see throughout the two hours or three hours. There was different openings and different things that Dad had to go into, and my plan was to see all of it. I got flooded with all kinds of inspirational arts, ever since I was probably four or five. I credit that a lot. That upbringing was very special, and I don't know many others in my shoes at this point because I got to enjoy it. A lot of them were my friends, personal friends. Older guys my dad's age were buddies and still are. That's a very fond memory, and it's inspired me 6:00quite a bit, just as much as me and my dad have, working right now. It's inspired me the same.

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of making art?

Glass: I began making art pieces whenever I was probably five or six. Ben Shoemaker, he had lived just over there, south of the property, and we were all hanging around. I made a piece, my first one.

Little Thunder: What was it?

Glass: I think I dropped it. I think I dropped it, and it kind of made it to where I squashed it down, put a little bit of a face on there, and then I think I even pinched a penis in there, and just made it where it was a guy that was peeing. (Laughter) That was the ongoing joke. Ben Shoemaker, he has that one in his collection.

Little Thunder: It was already three-dimensional stuff. (Laughs)

Glass: Yeah, that was the going joke, the artist joke, for a while. I can remember that was a winter day where we were all just cooped up, but that was the artist joke for a while.

Little Thunder: What kinds of art experiences did you have in primary school, in elementary school?

Glass: Just the typical art teacher and different contests. That's one thing, Dad always kept me kind of going. That's something we could work on together a little bit. He'd give me something he enjoyed. We'd stay up late nights cramming for the art contests whenever they came up. One time it was the Statue of Liberty that I drew or something like that, just various things. Sometimes I didn't always win the prize, but that gave me a good test, taste of the artist's 8:00life early on. One time, it didn't come back from--I think I entered one in Flagstaff, and it just disappeared. That one didn't even make it back home. I don't know. I might have made some money on it because they paid it off, but I don't know. We could just send it in the mail. It was a nice piece. It was some turtles, I believe. Them things happen. They probably didn't like no Cherokee guy coming up there and making a nice piece.

Little Thunder: My other question was when you sold your first piece of art. Would it have been at one of the competitions?

Glass: Yeah, yeah, probably that one, that very first one, whenever Ben Shoemaker bought it from me. I think he had to have that one. He thought it was such a good joke piece. He's collected--he's probably got my best collection of art now, too, so that's been nice. I was making some pewter vessels for the 9:00longest time, and he's got a good collection of probably fifteen. They're nice. They're nice pieces to showcase like that. That's what I had planned is, "Oh, somebody's going to collect one, and then they're going to fill a cabinet up with these things." He's the one that did. That's always nice to go back and see them.

Little Thunder: How about your art experiences when you got to junior high?

Glass: Oh, junior high, it was always just art teaching, typical art teaching at the school. We had a good teacher. He helped us along, many of us. Mostly drawing, though, he liked to teach us drawing techniques. Mr. Sinclair, he was out of Tahlequah, and he was the art teacher there in Locust for many years and 10:00on into high school.

Little Thunder: High school is sort of the same thing?

Glass: Yeah, he was the same instructor.

Little Thunder: Whole lot of continuity.

Glass: Working here, though, he always knew my dad had, I had an art studio at home to work in if I wanted to. He always liked to put a little bit more pressure on me to do better pieces than a lot of the other guys. Two, if I had to, I'd come home and work on the clay here and bring him back a piece a little bit finer polished, little bit more finished. That's my whole goal as an artist is to finish, finish the work. I don't get to tell the work when it's finished. It tells me when the work's finished.

Little Thunder: In terms of you mentioned traveling with your folks to art 11:00shows, what were some of your responsibilities at the art shows as you got older?

Glass: Hand signals was one. (Laughter) If I seen the hand go down kind of close to my whereabouts, that means, "Be quiet. I'm trying to make a sale here!" But general things, unloading the material, unloading the tables, unloading some of the fragile things. I got to learn how to handle pieces and knew not to break fragile pieces because I knew how much work went into them. Just help set up.

Little Thunder: How early were you putting work in?

Glass: I'd put work in anytime. I would always have something around, just try to make a little bit of money, even if it was a beaded headdress. Those are the 12:00ones you used to hang on your mirrors. I used to make those at the shows or whatever. I'd do a little bit of something, sometimes crafts, crafty stuff, but if there was an art show involved, too, I'd try to enter the art show that was with it.

Little Thunder: You became a really good wrestler, too, I think, during high school. Then you were offered a scholarship at Southern Illinois University. I wondered what were some of the reasons you decided to go there, besides the scholarship?Glass: That's all just the journey that I've been led on. I picked that particular school because they were giving me--. I knew wrestling was such hard work, I felt like I should be compensated for it. I wanted to work hard and 13:00earn something. They gave me a good opportunity to go to that school, so I took it. I didn't really realize that it would be so meant to be because they had a cutting-edge art department. It was the School of Arts and Sciences, and the art department was fairly new. At first, I was not going there to be an artist. I figured I would be education, a coach probably. Then I realized how much time I was spending in the art department whenever I didn't even have art classes, and I realized, "Hey, I could probably make some good grades in these classes." I went ahead and hang out in the art department because it was what I figured I was best at. That's what all--it just led me that direction.

Little Thunder: What's the most useful class that you took there for your career?

Glass: Metalsmithing was my favorite. I had a double major in metalsmithing and sculpture, and they were both--I took the fabrication end of both of them. There's a couple different processes. You could carve, and then you could cast. You carve a wax and cast, or you could do some castings in the sculpture department, but what I did is fabricated. I figured it was a good way to--I like the strength of fabrication. Everything always comes out with a strong value. It seems strong to me, and I liked the simplicity of what fabrication meant. You weren't going to really get into some really technical pieces. You can, but I 15:00chose not to. I liked the simplicity, and I just knew that it would relate well to some of the Southeast designs. You don't have to have a whole lot of intricate things to create a modern, simple, Southeast-influenced piece. You can get a Southeast influence in fabrication real easy just because of the line quality. That's where I started seeing the simplicity and the relation to simplicity and primitive art.

Little Thunder: What were some influences that you absorbed there, in terms of either maybe individual artists that you admired or movements?

Glass: My teacher Paulette Myers was an incredible metalsmithing teacher. She 16:00knew many, many techniques. I worked in her studio some, not necessarily to get paid because she didn't pay me a whole lot, but just to hang out with her. She was a little lady, and, boy, she was a great metalsmith. She's known for her experimentation in reticulation. There was some really technical things, and she always did a great job of getting outside artists in, bringing visiting artists. She was always bringing us new people to just feed our curiosity. Workshops all the time. That was my main instructor, professional professor, influence there, I would have to say.

Little Thunder: Reticulation is--.

Glass: That's a process where you use the torch. The torch moves the metal, and then you can make almost like mountains in the metal. It's interesting. It's like a tool. You use the torch as a tool, and there's certain amounts of prep that you have to do to the metal before you get there, but once you get it and then once you get the right flame, you just move the metal in with the torch, and it builds all kinds of nice texture. She's been studying that ever since I knew her. She liked that reticulation just so much, and she would get all excited about it. The last time I talked to her, about three or four years ago, she said, "Yeah, I'm doing--." She's just excited as she ever was. I always thought maybe that something was wrong with her at times, (Laughs) but she was 18:00just as excited as she always was, so I knew that she was just the same. She said, "I'm pretty sure that I'm doing something that nobody's ever done before." I was like, "That's just right. I'm glad," because it was always a passion, reticulation, for sure, and fabrication. She was a great fabricator, too.

Little Thunder: What kind of a degree, then, did you graduate with?

Glass: I didn't. I didn't finish the degree out. I had screwed up the scheduling, of course, and it was going to take me a year. In the meantime, I'd already showed at Red Earth and did a few things, and that was one of the things I needed to have done was a graduate art show, not a graduate but your thesis art show. I already did an art show, and I sold a few of my pieces, so I figured I--.

Little Thunder: You won an award that year?

Glass: Yeah, I got First Place in sculpture that year. I don't know. I may have got best in division. I'm not for sure. I couldn't tell you. To me, that was my student art show. I just decided to go and get in there with the rest of them, like I'd always grown up doing. That was my show is what I figured.

Little Thunder: It's interesting because artist parents feel this pull because they want their kids to be artists, too, but they don't want them to go through the hardship and financial insecurity. I know your dad was hoping you'd always come back and join him at some point. How did your mom feel?

Glass: Like I said, Mom, she's always been a supporter of artists. She's done a 20:00lot. She's kept us fed and entertained, and anytime anybody comes, she's helped out. She's glad to have me as part of the team. She wasn't worried. At first, maybe, but then I made a few pieces, and she realized that I had chance.

Little Thunder: What was an early award you feel was really important to your career?

Glass: I guess the First Place at Red Earth was a nice award. Those were the pieces I brought from college. Those were all the pieces that I made in the studio that I collected. I wish that I had some of those pieces back that I 21:00don't have no more. Those were pretty important. That was a pretty important first show, just to get out there and feel like, "Yeah, these are pretty good pieces." That was important. After that, you're only going to be judged on the awards. That's never something you can hang your hat on because it's only a perception. A judging is just that guy's personal view. It's really hard. It's really hard to take that as defining your career, to me.

Little Thunder: When you came back home, had the studio already been enlarged, or was that something that you undertook with your dad?

Glass: No, that's been the goal. Once I went to school, it just worked. An idea 22:00worked out. I called my dad, and I said "Hey, I think I'm going to get into the studio classes." He said, "That's cool." He said, "What do you like?" I said, "I like metal. I like doing metal." He said, "Well, that's great. We can collaborate. We can make metal pieces that have ceramics in them." I said, "Hey, that's interesting." I knew that I didn't have a lot of time to study because I was on the wrestling team, and that took up a lot of time, too. The arts, they were like lab classes. They weren't like just a regular three-hour class. If it was three hours, it had to be six hours. That was the initial plan. I was going to go and get into fabrication so then I could come back and help. Once I came back, we enlarged the facility because we needed a mixed-media shop. It was no longer just a ceramics shop. It was for mixed media. That's whenever we enlarged 23:00the facility in 2002, 2003. That's about the timeline on that.

Little Thunder: From what I remember, you've always liked the really streamlined forms, the kind of abstracted forms. You've never been into figurative work very much. You found your style pretty early.

Glass: Well, to me, it's the symmetry of the Southeast designs and how they fit into fabrication and geometry. It's fairly obvious to me. I'm limited on what I can do as a fabricator at this point. That's why it's interesting to me, the 24:00whole study, because then I can go into more form. I'm still going to reach those goals. Maybe I have to change a medium, a metal type. Maybe I go into aluminum investigation. Right now, I'm investigating stainless. Before, I did a lot of research in pewter. I've done some research in mixed media, a little bit of jewelry stuff, but it's based on what I can get away with, with the material. Truth in materials is always something that--you have to know what you can do and what you can't with this particular material that you're studying with at the time. Eventually, things will change, but right now it's just what I have to do to accomplish a nice piece right now, what I feel like.

Little Thunder: How important have galleries been to your career so far?

Glass: I've not really showed in galleries too much. I would like to, and I intend to, but right now I'm still studying. I'm studying a lot about my craft. I study every day. I'm learning machines and learning processes. I've already been through a few phases that I think I've filed away. I know those certain things, and then I just go and study a different material. Metal, it's a different metal, mainly metal. My investigation into metal right now is what I 26:00strive to do for some reason. It's not necessarily calming, but it's just what I like to do. I like to always dig into a different process in metal and try to feel comfortable pulling it off. I'm not ever going to master it, and probably that's why I picked it. I picked it because I knew I'd never master it. I just wanted to investigate. My time is spent doing that. I intend on finishing up a little studio over there closer to home so I can roll out of bed whenever I got an idea and work on it, too. There's times with this metal, the scale that I'm doing right now, I've known that I have to attack this scale at this point in my 27:00life. If I don't spend my time working in a larger scale now, it's not like I'm going to start doing it in fifteen years.

Little Thunder: Because it's a strength. There's a strength element, too.

Glass: Yeah, it's just demanding. That's where I'd like to have another little place that's smaller for metalsmithing, and I got it over there. I just need a little bit of extra time to get it going. Once I get that going, I'll have a little bit of smaller, intimate pieces that are just--. I can stay warm and stay cool easier and make a few of those along the side.

Little Thunder: Speaking of smaller pieces, I saw a couple of, they're like stands you created for Sharon Irla's paintings, as opposed to conventional frames. Do you remember those collaborations?

Glass: Not really.

Little Thunder: Okay. I just saw them on the Web.

Glass: I didn't really realize--I must have just made those for--got onto doing what I was doing, probably. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Okay. They look good. (Laughs) How important are commissions for you?

Glass: That's been what we've been working on. That's what I see as the way to really change people's perception. Art is a powerful thing. It's nice for somebody to have an art collection, but if we can get the art to the people publicly, I feel that that's as powerful of a vision that you can give somebody. I heard somebody say, "I feel rich whenever I admire my pieces. I'm surrounded. 29:00I have a richness in my soul," is what she was saying. "I have a richness in my soul because my art pieces surround me." I said, "That's cool." That was a nice perception that she had, Virginia Stroud. I read that she had said that. I like that idea, but let's put it out there for--. We're in Oklahoma. We've got to reach the masses of people that can start to have appreciation for it.

We need more people to appreciate art around in this community. Two, my philosophy on public art is if it's big enough, it can't be denied. You're in the space of the art. If you're in the presence of that piece, it changes. 30:00You're in that piece's space then. That's the feeling that I'm trying to convey to people is, "Whoa, wow, you're existing with that thing then." That's what I like. That's what I like. I often said that whenever you go back to see an old piece, it's like revisiting a friend or something, but this is a really good--. I don't know exactly what happens there, but if I can get it across to other people, the way I feel, that's all I'm trying to do.

Little Thunder: Is it right that The Passage was one of your first big public sculpture projects that you did with your dad?

Glass: Yeah, that's the one. We built this shop, and then we were fortunate 31:00enough to get an opportunity to create The Passage, the art that goes in The Passage. Hargreaves Associates were the architects, and I think they're known for outdoor themes. We partnered with them to build the art pieces that goes inside their public events area. I was the metals, in charge of the metals. I was the metals leader on the team, and Dad did the ceramics work. We had a team of artists, and Robby McMurtry designed a portion of the pieces. His was cut out by a friend of his, and then he powder-coated those and put them on there. The 32:00other section was seven six-foot medallions and then an 8' by 12' water spider that was down in the wading pool at the bottom. All the metal work was my pieces. Then the ceramic work was Dad's part and co-designed by--. The whole thing had a theme. The whole idea was a theme. All the pieces were stylistic interpretations that were found within a fifteen-mile radius of the Chattanooga area, so it was actually bringing back a history on what kind of art was there.

Little Thunder: You're talking about examples of older designs that were found 33:00within that--

Glass: Yeah. There's stylistic interpretations that's just--. If you go and research a gorget or whatever your inspiration might be but then you're changing it around and you're putting your own twist on it, that makes it fresh again. You're just using the old designs. You're showing your heritage. You're putting some of your heritage into it, but then you're putting your own personal taste into it. That's important. To me, that's very important. As long as you're influenced by something and not direct copying, it's a good study. It's a good 34:00practice. Sometimes I'll see a very small segment of something I see out of a book, and I'll make a complete sculpture out of it, and it won't really have any reference directly. I can only tell people what I did there. It might just be an eye area or--. It's just kind of a fun little thing to do, to me. It's like, "Hey, I'm going to do that, and it's going to be non-subjective," a lot of people will think, but then it might just be a little bitty portion of a design that I'd researched.

Little Thunder: What was it like to be there at the opening or just to stand back and really see the whole thing?

Glass: That's a nice collection of artwork, and I know it can be done now. I 35:00know that those kinds of things can happen, and I know that we can make it happen. I really would like to see, I would like a chance to do something like that again. Lots of times you have restriction on public art, though, too. It'd be nice to say, "All right, here's the space. Let's let it rip. Let's see what you guys can pull off." I want that challenge.

Little Thunder: At the moment, when there are calls for proposals, do you and your dad share that responsibility? Have you done much of that since the Chattanooga...Glass: Yeah, we team up and come up with concepts, collaborate as 36:00much as possible. We're close enough we can sketch on each other's pieces. If I see something in there, I can sketch on that. "Here."

Little Thunder: You'll exchange sketches?

Glass: Yeah, "Here's my idea," and I throw it over there, and he looks at it, and he sketches on it, and I bring it back. I sketch on it. It's a very fortunate thing. We can talk art and be buddies, art buddies. It's good that we have a team. We don't have a secretary, which would be nice to have. We can barely fill in the blanks on all that other stuff. We get by. The two of us get 37:00by, but my wife, she'll come in and help a little. Mom will come in and do what she can. We really try to, we try to get by with what we got.

Little Thunder: Family effort. Do you have other employees here right now?

Glass: I'll have a guy come in and help me, D. J. Bowen. He's a childhood friend; he lives right down the road. He'll come in and help me from time to time, a lot of heavy stuff. He's a strong guy. He can come in here and help me do certain things that need to be done.

Little Thunder: When you're working on a big scale, you must be spending a lot of money on materials. How do you do that and still manage to survive while you're trying to finish a project?

Glass: That's the hardest part. That's the hardest part. You're trying to do these big ones, and they take sometimes a year out of your time. They happen 38:00slowly at times, but then they need to go fast at times, too. It's important to just pay yourself as little as possible and try to make it, through. (Laughs) We keep the money, and we don't--. We might make a piece on the side here or there to kind of help make it, but we've got to make the money stretch so we can finish the job. Lots of times there'll be checkpoints. You get to this stage, and then we write off. That's just part of the process we've developed, phases. You get this area complete, then you get to go to phase two and get some more money to run through that. It's a bit of a process that we've learned, too.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the most frustrating public works projects, maybe not artistically, or artistically, but either artistically or--in terms of the logistics and the people?

Glass: They're all frustrating at times. It's a grand scale. It's a large-scale piece, and anytime you're doing something that's big, there's going to be frustrations. Still, the reward on all that is actually getting in with your hands dirty. That piece of art might fight you, but it don't really talk back to you. I can appreciate that because you're still working with the piece and it's 40:00not talking back to you. It might be stubborn, but it's not talking back. That's one thing I know. It might take time, even, but you nurture it, you bring it along, and once you know it's finished, you've got it.

Little Thunder: What's another, maybe, outstanding memory from a public art project that you have?

Glass: The main one was we put together a team to create that Chattanooga job. At that time, we had about nine guys in here working. That was a good one because it was getting on it, and that was our first one. I know what we can do here at this shop. We can make it happen, but that all happened just perfect. It 41:00was a blessing that everything's happened just the way it's happened. Even now, everything's just happening, so I'm just going to continue to let it happen as much as I can. I'm not going to strangle anything right now. I'm just going to let it happen. Some good things will come of it, I'm sure.

Little Thunder: It wasn't hard to share your creative space? Was that a strange feeling at first to have people coming in?

Glass: No, it was intense. It was so intense that it was great. I had a good staff. I was able to put together my staff. There was three of us in here. Off and on, there was probably five or six in there working on it. This was about all the space for three guys was good. We worked together, and we did some tough work on the metals end.

Little Thunder: Have you taught any sculpture workshops?

Glass: No, I've never done workshops. I've wanted to have an apprentice. I think that's the best way I think I could help anybody is a serious apprentice. I'll always be open to having an apprentice as long as they want to be an artist whenever they're done. They can stay as long as they want, but I think that would be a really cool way to try to--because you can do workshop, but I can't tell nobody how to do anything in a week, not even a few hours in a week. You got to respect art enough that you're going to be a lifer, pretty much. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What's a project you're working on right now that you're especially excited about?

Glass: I'm excited about getting these Prayer Feathers out, stainless steel fabrication, about eight and a half feet tall, eight foot four, I believe. To us, it's a symbol of peace. It's a peace symbol, but we'd envisioned they would go out to the [Indian health] clinics and create just a nice feeling before people went into the clinics. Lots of times, whenever you go to the clinic, you're kind of nervous, and that's where we're getting--this is getting to be our concept. Our concepts are starting to be rich because they get to be in the 44:00public. That's where I see, even whenever we did Chattanooga. I feel whenever we go and do the public art pieces, we got to come up with a really good concept because you got to nail it. You got to nail it. It's going to be right out there. It's with everybody else. They share its space, and you share their space, so you got to come up with something that's a nice concept that's got strength in it.

Little Thunder: What honor or accomplishment do you consider the most significant in your career so far?

Glass: Just being an artist. A lot of people have to work and do different 45:00things, and I'm very blessed to be able to be doing this still, hanging in there. The more I hang in there, the more I think that I'm going to be able to make it, but then I know, again, an artist's career, you're still going to have times whenever it's going to be rough. Every day I hang in there. I'm learning more about art, and that's all I'm trying to do. I'm going to eventually make some bigger and better things. That's my whole goal. I want to make things that are big to the point where you're just there. That's what I envision.

Little Thunder: You have a younger child. Is he showing any interest in art?

Glass: Yeah, he's pretty talented, gifted. He's real smart, and he likes, it's a 46:00modern kind of art. He's taking on to the gadgets and things like that. Things are changing; that's what I see. Art is changing, but he still draws and things like that. I'll give him a shot. (Laughter) It's about time. He's about eight. Like I said, I'm going to have that studio over there, so I figure I'll get him going with some light-gauge fabrication before long, get him in there, see if he can solder or do some technical things. If I could teach him a few of those things, that'd be good.

Little Thunder: Let's talk a little bit more about your process and techniques. You mentioned stainless, pewter, carbon steel, and sterling silver. What types 47:00of qualities does each different metal have that makes them useful for that particular project?

Glass: The research in metal is such a vast--at first I said, "I'm going to master this metal." You can have a grasp of it, but you're never really going to feel like you--because there's so many different applications. You can only just do a little bit of that application and get used to it. You might have mastered that one particular application, but it doesn't mean that you mastered that metal. There's always tons of different things. Even if I got to where I could 48:00move on to the next metal, kind of graduate from that metal, then there's still another process. Just like I said, my teacher, she did reticulation, and then you can cast, and you can do granulation. You can do all kinds of different techniques. It's just a lifelong study.

That's all I try to do. I try to expose myself to different metal, just to see, but just exposing yourself to a metal doesn't mean that you've grasped it. Doesn't mean anything. Like running a bead, a guy can say, "Yeah, I can weld," but, yeah, you just welded. You just got a bead and ran it on a piece of metal whenever it was already prepped for you and everything. That's just one particular usage. That's not in this particular orientation, when you've got these two things lined up. It's a lifelong investigation. Probably anybody that 49:00works with metal constantly can say, "Yeah, it's something that takes years and years." One of these days, I'd like to be able to consider myself a master at it, but I'm not trying to go there anytime soon.

At first, I did think that. At first, "Yeah, I'm going to master this material, and I'm going to become--," but it's not. It's just a constant--. I'm finding that you got to take more of a diary about what you've learned. You gather your notes, and it really does have to be hands on. You got to have that relationship and feel each metal. Each metal's different. Some may be used for jewelry instances. Some might be for longevity. That's why I like the stainless. It's going to hold up. These types of structures that I'm building, these stainless 50:00steel pieces, they're going to be here for a long time.

Little Thunder: In outdoor weather, they're going to have their color, and they're--.

Glass: Yeah, they're going to be here just like whenever I installed them. They're going to be here just like that for a long time.

Little Thunder: I was thinking of your pewter boxes, too. I remember those because they're very striking, and hopefully we'll get a picture of them, but I'm wondering why you chose pewter for the boxes.

Glass: Oh, that's just a nice material to investigate. It's got qualities that you can mold it a little bit easier. I can use the same fabrication techniques that I do with my larger-scale pieces, stainless steel or carbon, but I can do it in a small-scale investigation. I'm just trying to work out some kinks, and do some study and design, and come up with a plan. "Okay, I can fabricate--." 51:00It's steel sheet fabrication. That's what's intriguing about that. That's my theme, I guess, so far. It starts in a sheet, and I use geometry techniques, not much, just a little compass and doing some things, going with how I think it'll work, and trial and error.

That's where I really feel like I did go further in my education in university, but I'm still just a guy that sees it for what it is. If it works, I try it, and if I don't know how to do it, I try it anyway, and I mess up. That's how our people did. That's what I feel like is a gift that's been given to me. We 52:00experimented in different things. We had the luxury of having a stable community to where we could adorn the things that we had, and we learned how to do it with what we had. I'm doing the same thing. That's where it gets into being a contemporary versus traditional idea. I'm just using the tools that are available and creating things, pushing it. That's what I'm doing.

Little Thunder: I notice some of your early pieces, you were combining sometimes stone or wood with metal or shell or glass. What was one of the favorite combinations that you worked with in that regard?

Glass: I like wood and any metal. I really like ceramics in with the metal, too. 53:00The ceramics along with the stainless is nice because it's got a presence at nighttime that doesn't even take much light. Any kind of light that floods into the area, it gives it a really nice, it shows up so nice at night. It's amazing to me how Dad's glazes that he has, and then the stainless steel combined with it, it's almost like the stainless helps to light. It just plays together well with low light. I like the wood, too. Wood with pewter is nice because it's got a real warm feeling. I like to bring out the idea of duality. Once you use 54:00something like a white metal, and then you use something real earthy like a wood, if you can pull that off, it seems like it's a good combination because it's industrial in with the organic, and that's really interesting as a concept.

Little Thunder: I remember seeing a few of your dad's pieces that were more, they were actually more streamlined and kind of semi-abstract, and I wondered if the influence went the other way sometimes. I don't know when the pieces were made, but they reminded me, it was almost like what you were doing, and he was sort of picking up an element of that and getting a little more abstract. I don't know if--.

Glass: Well, he's always done some. He's done many, many. It's a way to build, 55:00too. You can slab build with ceramics. Artists have got such a visual mind that you pick up on things. That's one thing I was always kind of, I wanted to try to make my own, but I'm not worried about that. I'm just worried about learning, learning new things and if I can keep building and getting things out there. It's too slow already. I'm not going to worry. I'm not going to worry about who or what--.

Little Thunder: It's good to have those influences. It makes it more rich.

Glass: I'm influenced by a lot of things. I'm not going to act like I'm not ever influenced by anybody.

Little Thunder: Are there any dangers in working with some of the metals, and 56:00how do you approach that?

Glass: Yeah, absolutely. There is safety issues. Hopefully, it don't make you sick before you learn, and it has. I've gotten metal poisoning. One summer, I was down with metal poisoning quite a bit. I thought I was sick; I thought something was wrong. Finally, I got off of working with the pewter, but now I realize it's just safeguarding. You got to use gloves. Pewter's one of the worst, though. Those are just pieces--but once you finish the pieces, it's the actual grinding it up and getting it done. I haven't used pewter as much as I used to because of that reason.

Little Thunder: You've mentioned a little bit that some of the research you do, you keep track of some of the research you've done and the results in a book, and also that you get ideas sometimes from just looking at something. You'll 57:00take an element of that and end up using it in a piece of art in a totally different way. What other kinds of research do you do for pieces?

Glass: I've found it very fun to have to see something in an object, also. I'm lucky enough to be not in an urban area, in a rural area, so I want to see as much as I can from the nature part of it. It may not lead to a piece of mine because of some of the elements that I'm using, but I do like to sketch nature and do different things. They're just sketches. I'm not a two-dimensional artist. I'm a sculptor, and they're just notes and doodles. What I do really 58:00find interesting is that I can start to combine the mediums. I can add a metal-type element in with a organic-type piece of material, and that's where I feel if I can study the organic things, then I can--. It doesn't happen very often, but whenever it does, man, it's really a nice outcome.

Little Thunder: Can you take us briefly through the process of creating one of your sculptures? We'll do a bit of filming, too, in terms of your--I forgot what you called it, the frame?

Glass: Yeah, that's just a welding jig.

Little Thunder: Your welding jig. I'll shoot it in a little bit and then the Prayer Feather again on the video tape. If you were creating a midsize sculpture, the process you would go through, say, in stainless steel.

Glass: You start with a sketch. Sometimes I might use a computer and animate it to help design my sketch, my vision. I can sketch it, out and then I'll have what my vision's going to end up to be, but then I got a means to the end. Sometimes I have to get things trued up more, so I get it to the point where I can send it over and have somebody cut it. Then they cut the pieces out, and I 60:00might bring them back here and fabricate them in my studio. That's one way. There's other ways to make patterns. You start out with something like a buck, (it's called a buck) then you make patterns of it. You're building a model. Then you take patterns off that model, and you enlarge them. That's another way you can do it, but then you can still have them cut the pieces out if you design that out.

There's ways, and that's part of the next things that I'm trying to learn, too. Whenever you add form into it, you're stretching the metal, you're shrinking the metal. That's my next main focus. I want to learn how to stretch and shrink and build contours and orbs and things like that so I can go into an even more--you've been saying abstract, but I've just been seeing it as contemporary 61:00form. If I can break the plane, that's where I think I'm going to end up. Just a few more machines. (Laughter) I got to get a hammer to help me do some of the work. It is a industrial art application. What I'm doing is industrial art application. I like it. I like the strength. Whenever it comes out, I like the strength of what it has. It's strong. It's just strong. That's what I'm after.

Little Thunder: You've talked a little bit about your creative process, but from the time that you get an idea, are there any steps we've missed?

Glass: I think about it all the time. The technical portions of--from what I see 62:00in my mind to the finished product takes a long time with planning. I'll come to where there's road blocks. Then I'll have to contemplate on what to do next, how to get this little bitty problem fixed, or how to fix a problem, a mistake that I made. Along the way, you're learning the whole time, though. You're learning how you messed it up once and how you're going to fix it, so there's a lot of ways that you're growing. There's a lot of times I go to bed scratching my head, trying to figure out how I'm going to do this stuff.

Usually with a little bit of rest, you wake up and, "Well, I might have this 63:00option, or I might have this option." You pick the best one. You go for it. That's where I'm still at. I'm getting to the point where I'm getting to be confident with my choices. There's usually a good answer and a pretty close answer, so you got to still outweigh what's the right direction to go. It's a lot of trial and error, most everything I do. Like I said, I went to the institution side and figured out how to go be a student, but that didn't really prepare me for what I had to--. Lucky enough to go to a place that taught me the ground level, but for the most part, your investigation as an artist is a lot of self-taught.

Little Thunder: What's your creative routine? Do you work at night or in the 64:00morning? Do you listen to music? What's your routine?

Glass: It doesn't matter. I'm fortunate enough that I can come over here and work whenever I think I can work a little more that day, whatever. It's just being around it, being around it as much as you can. It's taking time to be able to prioritize and try to get yourself to the point where you feel like you're around it enough. Your goal is to be around it, but you got a family, and you got a kid. You got other obligations. I need to fulfill those, too. I do appreciate my wife for being understanding because there's times whenever I need to hang out, and my family--. It takes a family that's going to help you and 65:00support you and understand your process so you can keep those weird hours and do things unexpected. That's how we are. We got to be able to do it. I think an artist sometimes feels there's not enough. At least, me, I know I feel that way. There's not enough time for me to get it all done. It's just so hard. It takes a lot. It takes a lot, so whatever it takes is my goal. I mainly just want to get faster. I mainly just want to get faster at achieving the final product.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what do you consider a pivotal moment when you could've gone one way and you chose to go another?

Glass: I don't really think there's been much of one. I'm pretty blessed that I've just been led on this path. I can honestly say I didn't really intend to do what I've done up to this point. Everything that's happened in my career's been the way it's supposed to be. I'm getting better at understanding that that's my path. At first, I started trying to think that I was going to be--it's like you're young and you're going to do whatever you want to do, but really I'm understanding now and embracing the fact that it's my journey. I've been guided to do--. This is my journey, but if I cooperate, it's going to be better than if 67:00I try to think that I'm really put myself in a certain position or take myself out of this. I'm just going to go with the flow and continue to try to make things as much as possible and see where it leads me.

Little Thunder: How about one of the high points of your career so far?

Glass: We've built a piece out of the studio, and I was overseeing of the metal fabrication. We contracted with a small-fab shop in Kenwood, and we built a tower that was, like, forty foot, forty-five feet tall. It was interesting. The 68:00process was interesting. They wanted something that was like a polygon, so we put panels, art panels, on it. It was--.

Little Thunder: Ceramic?

Glass: No, they were powder-coated steel art panels. It was a whole process of just making things fit. We had to have it designed out to the T before we started the project so that once we started laying these big pieces of metal on there that they all worked, all the holes matched and everything. That was quite a challenge, and whenever that thing was getting raised up by the crane and we were setting it, that was pretty nice. That was pretty nice. It's all the same. 69:00After that one was done, I was like, "All right, now--." It's like that fix. That was like a fix, and I was like, "Well, now what?" As they were tightening up the bolts, I was like, "Back to the drawing board," is what I thought it my head. That's a nice accomplishment. It feels like you've accomplished something whenever something like that goes up, but as soon as it's over, you're ready to do something else big. Those don't come along all the time. I got a few that I'll have planned out to the point where I'm ready. If anybody ever was interested, I'm going to make some more of those big ones because they're the funnest. A crane setting it up there, that's pretty cool.

Little Thunder: That was at a casino. Remind us the location?

Glass: At Ramona.

Little Thunder: I want to see that. What's been one of the low points in your career?

Glass: Oh, there's no low points. You're very lucky to be an artist, and I feel like I'm very lucky. It's hard. It's hard. There's nothing that's easy about it, but you get used to that. You get used to what it takes to try to accomplish these goals.

Little Thunder: Is there anything that we've forgotten to talk about or anything you'd like to add before we take a look at the Prayer Feather and also your machine over there?

Glass: No, I really feel like this is a blessing, to be an artist and to be a creative personality. I just appreciate all the people that's helped me along the way: my parents; my grandparents; my wife, Pam; and I thank the Creator for 71:00my family. I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing, and it's all going to be fine because that's the way I've done so far. Like I said, I'm feeling more comfortable in that, with that responsibility now. I'm starting to feel like, "Okay." I knew it was some level of responsibility, but now I'm really feeling that I'm starting to be comfortable with it.

Little Thunder: So here we're having a look at your Prayer Feather piece. 72:00Anything you'd like to add about this? I remember you talking about possibly adding some ceramic on the sides at some point, too.

Glass: This piece is going to be like it is. Those are options in the future for different art pieces, but this piece is nearly complete. I got a little bit of polishing to do. It's the strength. I feel that a lot of the pieces that I've been doing and have always done is just strength. It has the amount of strength; it just has that presence and strength. That's one. Right now, I'm really enjoying the white metal because the whiteness, to me, symbolizes a purity, so that's nice. I'm always attracted to the white metals a little bit more because 73:00of their purity. It goes good for this one. It's to symbolize a prayer and to comfort people that pass by. It's a fabricated stainless steel, welded and polished.

Little Thunder: I was looking at the design on the base. The measurements, again, is it fifteen?

Glass: No, it's eight foot three inches, roughly eight foot four.

Little Thunder: Eight foot four. Wow, it has a presence that's even bigger than that. Well, thank you very much for your time today, Demos.

Glass: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for your interest.

------- End of interview -------