Oral history interview with Ken Bonds

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, October 9, 2014, and I'm interviewing Ken Bonds in Oklahoma City for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at Ken's office with the firm Wells Nelson. Mr. Bonds, I understand you've had an outstanding business career, managing investment accounts. Your wife, Gerry, tells me that you are her announcer for her KOSU radio show because of your wonderful broadcasting voice, but I'm especially interested in your support for Native art in the state, and particularly your involvement with the Red Earth Indian Arts Festival. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

Bonds: Delighted to be with you, Julie.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Bonds: I was born in Kirkland, Texas, out in West Texas near Childress. This was in the Depression, of course, and things were tough. My dad was a farmer, and we 1:00lived there about three or four years and moved to Colorado where he had a job in the prison at Canon City. A few years there, and then in the mid-'30s we moved to Folsom, southeast Oklahoma, where I really grew up. Later on, moved to Ardmore, Oklahoma. That's where I finished high school and got in the banking business at the First National of Ardmore.

Little Thunder: What kind of presence did art have in your home, growing up?

Bonds: Very little because my parents were very poor. Back in those years, survival was the main impetus for the family life. My mother was part Cherokee. We're not sure how much, but had to be nearly three-eighths to a half Cherokee. Art forms were very important to all that family, the Hill family. For example, 2:00my mother and some of her sisters would do quilting in the fall and winter. They would put quilt tops in art forms (I'm sure that you've seen many of them) that were just absolutely beautiful. They all seemed to have talent for color and combinations of colors that were just beautiful, so in that primitive form, it's been with me ever since I was born.

Little Thunder: How about Native cultures a little bit? Were you around--Bonds: Oh, yes. Where I grew up--especially down in southeast Oklahoma, as you very well know, is Indian country. It's kind of strange because my family, we don't know for sure what our blood level is. When my mom was getting old and in her 3:00early nineties (this was after Red Earth was started) she was awfully interested in that and my role in it. I asked her, "Mom, why didn't you all sign up for the Dawes Commission and go through that process?" She said, "Well, Ken, when I was a girl in southeast Oklahoma, you didn't go around bragging about being Indian back then. We were a proud family, and we didn't like to sign up for those government things that told us what to do, so we just never did it, never thought it was important. We knew who we were, and we just didn't sign up." Since then, it's been very difficult to trace our history that far back. Anyway, like I say, the Indian art forms and the use of colors and so forth in a 4:00primitive sense have always been important to me.

Little Thunder: Now, were you interested at all in drawing or painting when you were growing up?

Bonds: I couldn't draw a birdhouse that a bird would want to live in. I have no talent for that whatsoever. I like to doodle, but drawing and painting--. When I try to paint around the house, I get more on me than I do on the wall, so I've never tried to get into that at all. I let others do that, but I sure do enjoy looking at the good art, especially Western and Native American art.

Little Thunder: So what were your art experiences, maybe in school, even in terms of just being able to see different kinds of art?

Bonds: Well, direct experiences and participating and trying to learn, I never really got into that, but early on I began to appreciate what I've always called 5:00realistic art. I like art that really shows me something I can recognize. I recognize the talent involved in abstract forms of art, but it's never really appealed to me that much. The type of art that your husband does, for example, is what I like. Art that tells--you can look at it, and you know what the story is. That's the kind that I appreciate, particularly.

Little Thunder: Did you know by the time you got to high school that you wanted to get into business, and particularly the banking business?

Bonds: Well, you know, it's interesting you would ask that because the way I describe it is when I graduated high school my parents were poor, and we didn't 6:00have much. When I graduated high school in Ardmore, Oklahoma, I had two choices: work or starve. My choice was an easy one because of friendly teachers that I had who thought I might have some kind of promise. I was introduced to one of the local bankers in Ardmore. They had a job offering for a kid like me. I started the morning after I got out of high school, and I've been doing it ever since.

I was blessed with being given a curious mind. I like to know how things work, and the opportunity to start out in a bank like that, a small bank where I have the opportunity to learn everything that goes on, I was curious about how it worked, and how it fit together, and what everybody did, and how that all related. I got a graduate degree in finance, just being able to work in that 7:00bank. Then I came to Oklahoma City in 1951 and joined a large bank, had the same kind of opportunities, and, again, the rest is history. I've had a very interesting career in banking and investments, and have no regrets of any kind.

Little Thunder: How did you meet your wife, Gerry?

Bonds: Well, it's interesting. She grew up in Yonkers, New York, an Italian Irish family. She got into broadcasting sort of on a dare. Back when she was growing up there, women were supposed to be school teachers, secretaries, or that kind of work, so she became a schoolteacher, has a master's degree in English. Watching Barbara Walters do her magic back in those years, she and some 8:00friends, she said, "You know, I can do that." She went to radio broadcast school, then into television, and of course, the rest is history.

What she loves to do most is teach. Anyway, she came to Oklahoma City to Channel 5, the local ABC outlet, and we got acquainted because of my role in banking and her role in television, just doing civic things. A number of years after our marriages that we were in at the time ended, she and I got together. That was twenty-five years ago, and we've had a great run from then. She's the best thing that ever happened to me, and we just get along great. She now has her own radio show, and as you mentioned, I have the pleasure of being her very high-priced 9:00announcer, as you can imagine. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When you're starting a career, especially after a move, for example, your move to Oklahoma City, sometimes it's all-consuming at first. I was wondering how soon it was before you got involved in the civic life of Oklahoma City?

Bonds: That is interesting because as I grew in the banking business and my job, I got more important jobs as the years went by. A part of that job, which I was happy about, was that you began to feel a responsibility to be involved in the community. We taught in banking that we make a decent living in this community and it's our job to put something back. We were not dictated what we should get into, but find something of interest to us. It wasn't long until I was on a 10:00whole bunch of, not a whole bunch but a number of boards of nonprofits in Oklahoma City. Of course, a major responsibility was to be involved in the Chamber of Commerce, which is a direct link to the way Red Earth got formed, which we'll probably talk about later. It was as a part of that responsibility and my own urge to be involved and to make good things happen because I got to learn from some business leaders in this town that I got to know well and became very good friends with.

I looked up to them. I was taught by their example what you do in a town like this to make things work, make things happier for the citizens, make a better quality life other than just make money for the bank and serve bank customer interest. I guess at one time I was on the board of eight or ten not-for-profits 11:00and the Chamber of Commerce. One year I lost my mind totally I guess, and I was chairman of the United Way campaign and chairman of the Allied Arts campaign in the same year. (Laughter) That was a hard--that's how I got all this gray hair. That and raising four daughters is the cause of all that. Anyway, it was through those activities, working in the community that I saw the importance of, particularly, arts in the schools and in our community at large. That's when that interest really began to develop. Then we'll get into how Red Earth got started a little later.

Little Thunder: Were you starting to collect Native art during this time that you're serving on some of these boards?

Bonds: Not really, although I began to meet and learn about the lives of some of 12:00our own Oklahoma Indian artists and began to slowly develop an interest in what they were doing, and the talent that they had, and the uniqueness of their art forms. It was a gradual learning process. I met and got to know Bert Seabourn, for example, and Jeanne Rorex Bridges, for example, and Troy Anderson, and the Tigers, and Merlin Little Thunder in later years. It was a gradual process, but I really began to really get to be interested as Red Earth came about and I really got to know Indian artists. I thought, ooh I want--.

Little Thunder: To really see.

Bonds: Yeah, I need one of those. Yes, I'd like to have one.

Little Thunder: Let's talk about how you and--I understand that you and Justice [Yvonne] Kauger have been dubbed sort of the father and mother of Red Earth.

Bonds: Yeah.

Little Thunder: How did you two meet each other?

Bonds: We met in a similar way to what Gerry and I did. We worked together on--we were on the Lyric Theatre board together for several years way back there, and we developed a friendship. I've always wanted to be around people who were a lot smarter than I was and who knew a lot more than I did. I have to say that wasn't very difficult. I could learn from a lot of people. We just developed a friendship, and we sort of fell into the habit of having lunch together three or four times a year and solving world problems and just having a 14:00fun friendship together. It was during one of those in, like, the mid-'80s, '84 or '5, something like that, when we were talking at lunch that day. "Isn't it a shame that some of our great Native American artists who live right here," known to her and to me because she had a number, and does, friendships with our great Native American artists--.

We got to talking about what a shame it is that those great artists have to go to Santa Fe and to all over the country to show and to sell their work when there ought to be a great outlet for it right here in Oklahoma and Oklahoma City. That was the germinating idea behind the Red Earth Festival. Now, there's another key ingredient that caused it to happen that relates to cowboys and 15:00Indians. Again, I already mentioned that I was active in the Chamber of Commerce at the time. Oklahoma City had just lost the National Finals Rodeo because we couldn't compete with Las Vegas, who offered a million dollars for the event. We couldn't match that, so we were all crying our tears about what a shame it is we lost the cowboys to Las Vegas. That mood was here.

Out of that luncheon came an idea in my head that (I was on the board of the Chamber) I should go to a board meeting and say, "We've lost the cowboys. Why don't we create and Indian event here in Oklahoma City that might even be better than that by showing Indian art in an appropriate format and a great event, and 16:00at the same time show Indian culture in the form of dance and any other form that we could develop? Not a powwow, now, but an event that really spotlighted Native American culture in all of its beautiful forms, that would appeal to the public that we could sell tickets to." That sort of thing. Well, I presented that idea to the Chamber board meeting one time and I got everybody, "Oh, no, that's not going to work. I don't think you can get those Indian tribes to work together," and something or other.

I said, "Well, let's try it. Let's try it." "Okay," they said. I went around to all my friends in business at the Chamber, and I said, "My bank will give five 17:00thousand for the first one. I want you to do that much, too." You know, the old game we play about how to raise money, you shame them into doing it if for no other reason. We raised in the business community $50,000 that first year. We got the Chamber to give us some office help and in effect contribute in that fashion. Leroy Bridges and Kelly Haney and some of our friends in politics got some state help, and, again, the rest is history. We struggled. There were some of us, Allie Reynolds and a whole bunch of people who helped us get it started, Doug Cummings and Leroy Bridges and many others, we were down there counting one-dollar bills at twelve o'clock at night. We were selling t-shirts and prints and doing everything we could.

We had a lot of fun, but that event--. You know, my dream was that we would get it started; it would be so great that we'd sell more than enough tickets to pay all the costs and we wouldn't have to go around asking for money in the community. Well, that dream has never come true yet. (Laughter) Some people think we make all the money in the world, which we never have, but the event as you know is one of the best in the country, has a life of its own. You can imagine how proud I am to be Justice Kauger's partner in the formation of that. She, of course, was a key to making it happen because of the idea to start with, as well as Justice Kauger, as you may know, is very hard to say no to. She used 19:00her influence in many ways to help us to get started and help the event to become what it is now.

A long answer to your question, but as you can tell, there are a number of kind of weird events that had to come together to make the idea germinate and then develop into what it has become, to be able to create a venue where our great artists could show their work, could sell it. One of the more interesting things to me is very quickly we began to get media attention from France, from Japan, (the Japanese love Indians and cowboys, as you know) and Europe. After about the second or third year, we began to get back four-color articles from French 20:00magazines, from German magazines, British magazines, about what a great event this is. It's a photographer's dream for sure.

Little Thunder: Right. So this whole process of preparing the groundwork didn't take much more than a year? Red Earth started in '79 right? Was that the first year?

Bonds: No, let's see. We're twenty--the next one will be twenty-nine years old, so that would've been in the ʼ80s, yeah, yeah, the ʼ80s. Again, it was a struggle from year one because, first of all--.

Little Thunder: But within that year you had the festival.

Bonds: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: Okay, that's what I wanted to--.

Bonds: Yeah, the first year, we got it off the ground, and I don't know how. 21:00Some of us look back and say it must've been divine intervention because there's no other way you can really explain that it happened.

Little Thunder: Yeah, and I think there was a sense from the vendors that first year, it was very exciting, but you didn't exactly feel like every merchant was behind it. That was a kind of palpable feeling down here, downtown, so it's amazing that you were able to--.

Bonds: Oh, yes, we kind of worried or concerned for years that the whole business of Indians, Indian history, Indian culture is so taken for granted still in the state of Oklahoma. I mean, so what? That's how we got started here! 22:00So, okay, Indian art, okay, fine, yeah. It was in a way a mystery to us that we were getting less attention from our own community than we were from surrounding areas, surrounding states, and surrounding countries. That was a surprise to us early on. I remember some of my old golf cronies at the Oklahoma City Country Club, after the first, second, third, and fourth year, I'd say, "Have you guys been to Red Earth yet?" They'd say, "What? Red what?"

These are guys who were interested in the community, as I was. It took years for it to earn its spot in the community. Sure, artists said when they would sell a 23:00picture, it would be somebody from Dallas or Houston or somewhere, not somebody from Oklahoma City, or Norman, or Edmond. We all wondered about that, but then again, it had to come out of what I say: we've always taken Indians and Indian culture for granted here. So how does it become new and something really to go see, to go buy a ticket and see?

Little Thunder: Right. I don't know if from Gerry's position--did she do a little interviewing to sort of publicize the event, or was there anything she--

Bonds: Gerry became--for a northeastern girl who didn't even know where Oklahoma was until they brought her out here for a television job, she quickly fell in love with Oklahomans, with Indians because she knew if she was going to get 24:00together with me there would be some Indian influences here and there. She fell in love with this country, with its people, and especially with Native American art and history and culture. She, in her professional life, has been one of our greatest fans of the event and what we are trying to do. I remember when she did her weekly television interview show at OETA and when she was still with Channel 5, every year she would interview--. The first year she did this at OETA, Justice Kauger and yours truly were interviewees on that program. She's had a 25:00program about Red Earth on television and radio every year since. If we've got a better fan, I don't know who it would be.

Little Thunder: That's great. So you've sort of given us an insight into all the hard work even after the event was over.

Bonds: It was a labor of love, by the way. It was a labor of love.

Little Thunder: Do you remember any special moments or highlights when everything started, because of course there were was the opening and the parade? I don't know if you have any funny stories you might want to share about that.

Bonds: Well, some of the funny stories from an insider's viewpoint would be--and I failed to mention Phil Lujan. Phil is with the University of Oklahoma, as you know, and their Native American History program down there. He was also one of 26:00our very first worker bees. I remember some of the funny things about the event. We wanted to keep it pure you know. You can't bring Japanese, Mexican, Chinese stuff into this event. It just so happened that Allie, and Phil, and Doug Cummings, and I became sort of, let's say, the police of the material that we would allow to come.

Little Thunder: You were kind of jurying things in?

Bonds: Yeah, we juried the artists to start with, but then some of the jewelers and those who came to sell jewelry and other art forms from New Mexico and other places. Once in a while, maybe a little certainly non-Native American material would show up in their booths. We would go around and explain to them very 27:00quickly the advantage to them of getting that back in the trunk of their car. (Laughter) We had some interesting events there. Again, looking back on the early history, those late-night, counting-money events, counting t-shirts, just doing all the grunt stuff that an event like that takes, we've got an army of volunteers now that do all that. It's much more organized. We weren't that organized in the early years, but we had a lot of fun.

Somehow we all sensed that we were a part of something really very valuable and that we had an opportunity here to do what we really set out to do in the first place. Our main goal was to help our Oklahoma Native American artists to show 28:00their ware and to be recognized for the talent that they collectively had, that awareness that, "Hey, you know this--." We could make the Chamber of Commerce proud of what we're doing as opposed to doubting that we could pull it off. Early on, that became an awareness that we had that this is valuable, this is worth doing here. I think that drove us all. "Let's keep doing it. Let's keep using up our friendships around town to raise money." (Laughs)

I remember one of my great friends was Jim Harlow, who was CEO of Oklahoma Gas and Electric Company at the time. He, like me, was active on the Chamber board. We worked with and against each other at every fundraising effort in the city, 29:00so we knew each other well. I'd go over to his office to see him about his annual contribution, willing contribution, to Red Earth. He would say to his secretary, "Okay, let Bonds in here. He's got his Red Dirt project that he wants me to give some money to." All that went on in the background during all those years. It was fun, but it was hard work, too. Some of those guys dreaded coming to see me, but it was in the same spirit that they dreaded me coming to see them when it was United Way time and all that. But it became my Red Dirt project. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So how long did it take before there was a decision to have a board and eventually an office?

Bonds: Well, actually, I guess we put together pretty good governance early on because that first year was just kind of a hodge-podge of people coming together and trying to get it done, the chamber help, volunteer help, and so forth. After we made it the first year--and we had some funding coming in that we were accountable for. All of us involved from the business community, we knew what we had to do to provide the kind of governance that we needed. Again, we wanted it to have a solid base to operate around (and I'm not putting them down) as opposed to a powwow environment to where everybody just kind of comes together and they sing and dance and do things.

We put together a board that we thought had appropriate Indian representation, but also people from the business community who knew how to raise money, who knew how to organize an event, who knew how to budget, who knew how to make sure that we took in at least what we paid out. Otherwise, we'd be in trouble in a hurry. After that first year, we put together the kind of governance that really is still in effect. We wound up with kind of a merger of Red Earth, because they were natural partners, and the (I've forgotten the exact name of it) Native American institute that was then located out at the [Kirkpatrick] Science Museum where the office stayed for many years. The goals of Red Earth and then this 32:00Native American organization were so common that we were a natural merger. We put those boards together, and in effect, that's the organization that exists to this day, became Red Earth in its official form.

Little Thunder: How about deciding on a venue?

Bonds: Ah, yes. We have experimented some with that. We started first at what is now the Cox Convention Center, and that worked for several years. We got our place in line, as far as timing of the event, the first weekend in June. Around the country you have to work into a schedule of Native American events. Once you 33:00get into that schedule you have to stick with it or you'll be in conflict with drum groups, dancers, artists, etcetera. After we earned that spot, then we began to have difficulty with the Convention Center of conflicting events they might want to have there, and we got some pressure. "Could you change your event to another time so we could allow this event to come to Oklahoma City?" We said, "Can't do that because we are now in the schedule and we've got to stay there." That caused us to move to the fairgrounds for a couple years. That worked but 34:00not as well. Came back to downtown, and then the primary reason was the prices got too high.

After the Chickasaws bought Remington Park, (it wasn't me) somebody else got the idea that perhaps a move out there might work. That was tried last year. Worked in some ways okay; in some ways not okay. It wasn't too good for dancers because it was outside. June can be hot, and so that didn't work too well. We're now back downtown with a much better deal at the Convention Center. It is not pressured so much anymore about conflicting events and timing because of the other facilities that are now here. Pricing is now better there than it was, so 35:00for all those reasons, I think we're probably back to the best venue of all, that fits all of the reasons for having the event better than any other place. I think we're probably there to stay, hopefully. Fingers crossed. Our history would tell us that probably is the best place for us to stick with.

Little Thunder: We're going to segue a little bit into some of your own Native art collecting here pretty quickly, but I did want to ask, too, about a couple of things: how the festival, not just in terms of venues, but how it changed from the '80s to the '90s, maybe some general statements, and then from the '90s 36:00to the 2000s.

Bonds: We have never wavered from our original purpose, and that's primarily to spotlight Native American art. As far as changes, I guess the more significant change that the board and the leadership have developed over the years has been an urge to move the nature of the art exhibited and sold to original works, as opposed to--. Let me back up a little bit. Indian artists over the years through technology have learned to convert their work into other forms that are more 37:00available and affordable to the general public, in the form of tiles and prints of all kinds, and tiles on box gadgets and things so that they can sell their art to people who can't afford an original. There were some strains involved in that process. I've always been on the side of--my view has always been, I don't know a lot of really rich Native American artists, and so my urge is to do everything we can to help them improve their financial status as they develop their art form. An old banker, bottom-line guy like me, that's the attitude I 38:00would take, within reason, now.

We don't want them selling junk, but within reason let's let them display their art in any fashion they can that's classy but yet let them distribute their art to more and more people who will fall in love with what they do. As I say, there have been some stresses along that line, and I suppose I'd have to say the nature of the art allowed has tended to go more toward what I call the art museum forms, that is, originals and quasi-original artwork. Again, there are arguments on both sides as to how you do that, but I'd say that's been the 39:00primary change. We've lost some artists who don't come because they can't sell the full array of what they produce, and others, I guess, who are glad about it, who are more popular and can sell their work. That's probably developing, and over time will probably come more, I hope, back to the middle of the road. Like I say, until all of our artists are really rich, I'd like to see them prosper in any way they can that's within reason.

Little Thunder: How about when the 1990 Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed? Do you remember some of those discussions?

Bonds: Oh, yeah, and what's Native American and what isn't. Yeah, and that too, as most things do, there are arguments on both sides. See, if I were a great 40:00Native American artist, which I am not, but if I were, like Bert Seabourn, like Jeanne Rorex Bridges, like Troy Anderson, and others that I can't think of at the moment, they can't say that their original art is Native American because they cannot prove with a card arising from the Dawes Commission that they are in fact what they say. They know who they are. Everybody else knows who they are. If I were a great artist, I couldn't say--I've got to go around the horn to describe who I am and the nature of what I produce.

I think that law, I guess, is primarily, back to your question, is like a lot of other things. It had a good idea. We don't want Japanese with no Native American 41:00blood to say they're selling Native American art, but on the other hand it's a real problem for these known Native American artists who can't properly describe their work. That to me is a good idea kind of gone bad. I suppose over time it's kind of sorting itself out. At least I hope it is. I wish we could change it, frankly, to allow some other kind of compromise that would be fair to everyone. I know I am part Cherokee, but I can't prove it, and that's the fix that some of the others are in, as well.

Little Thunder: What about the decision to have permanent staff and a permanent office?

Bonds: It's because the idea got such solid feet under it. The Native American museum that we, in effect, merged with began to collect items that were valuable so that we had the beginnings of a museum for full-time display, along with the energy of the annual event called Red Earth. Staffing became important. Then we developed attraction as a Native American museum as more and more tourists come to Oklahoma and to Oklahoma City. What do they want to see when they come to Oklahoma? They want to see cowboys, and they want to see Indians and Indian art and so forth. We were at the science museum for many years, but as Oklahoma City 43:00downtown has been reborn, it became smart (I wish I had developed the idea, myself) to bring our visibility downtown.

We're now over here in the Plaza next to the Skirvin, next to the Chase Bank, and with great visibility. Of course, that's been a wonderful thing for Red Earth and the Red Earth Museum. That will just get better, and especially get better since they have actually redone that building over there and made it much more attractive, and much more attractive to visitors to come in and see Red Earth. That's one of our better moves. We are there to stay. We'll be a factor from now on in what we present to visitors to Oklahoma and Oklahoma City, for 44:00sure. I think we're the best, but we're certainly one of the more attractive ones, for sure.

Little Thunder: And does part of the funding for that come from the festival, then?

Bonds: Yes, the funding sources for the museum, they charge small amounts for admittance on occasion and they have some forms of ongoing revenue. The museum and the event still require subsidies from the community and from the state of Oklahoma. The state can certainly afford to support it because of all the tourist traffic that comes to Oklahoma just because of it, or certainly as one of the reasons to come here. So funding for the museum and the event comes from 45:00all kinds of sources but primarily subsidized funding by the community, state arts council, and then, of course, the ticket sales from the event and artist booth fees, etcetera, etcetera. Not nearly enough. We'd like to have ten million dollars in endowment funds to help us, but it's the kind of thing, the museum and the event, probably never should get to be self-supporting because it is so deserving of public support because of all that it represents. I'm not embarrassed anymore to ask people to give it money to make it happen. I never was embarrassed, but I'm sure not anymore. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You've explained that while you quickly saw the value of promoting Native art and got people onboard, you weren't doing quite so much collecting, yourself, but it then began a little bit when--

Bonds: Oh, yeah.

Little Thunder: --the festival started.

Bonds: Oh, yeah.

Little Thunder: So did you and Gerry--we'll talk a little bit about what you like and what you've collected. Did you and Gerry both look at the same time? Did you have different tastes? How did that work out?

Bonds: That's a good question because we do have, as you might expect, somewhat different tastes, but we both like--. Well, I hate to use names because I'll leave out some of the favorites. We've already talked about Jeanne Rorex Bridges, who is not only one of our favorite artists but she and J. R. are close 47:00personal friends, as well. For many years when they came to Red Earth, they stayed at our house, and we were delighted to have them. Gerry has always been attracted, as I have, to Jeanne's form of showing strong, positive, Cherokee women. Many people don't realize this, but I suppose of all the tribes, women in Cherokee history were important, not that they weren't in other tribes, but they kind of ran the tipi in Cherokee history.

Jeanne, in her unique way has shown Cherokee women for what they were, strong, powerful, talented, and we like that. Of course, I fall in love with her barns. I just love her barn scenes. We have, I don't know, five or six originals of 48:00some of her women things but also her barns. I have one in my office that you probably saw. Then as kind of an interesting contrast, we love Ben Harjo's things. You saw the great Ben Harjo--. Ben, like my mom and her sisters putting quilt tops together, Ben has an absolutely fascinating talent of combining colors in ways that few can, not the descriptive realist kind of art that I'm most attracted to but in a very attractive sort of way.

Now, your own husband [Merlin Little Thunder], for example, does some work that 49:00I'm just fascinated by. You look at one of his scenes, and you know what the story is. It'll grab you when you see it. Troy Anderson and the work that he does is a favorite. We were talking about Native American artists being allowed to sell reproductions of their work in all kinds of forms. For example, on the front of my car, I have a license plate of one of Troy's beautiful Indian women. It's a license plate on the front of my car. I don't feel I'm degrading Troy's brilliant artwork by having that there. I like for people to ask me, "That's really pretty. Who did that?" (Laughter)

That's an aside from the kind of stuff that I like to put in my house. Kelly 50:00Haney, some of his work, Cheryl Davis, we have some of each of them. I regret starting to go into names so much because I'll automatically leave out a whole bunch. I like them all, frankly. I like the Tigers. Dana Tiger does beautiful work. One of my daughters is just crazy about her art form. Again, I think that's why our event is so popular, because you line up our Native American artists in about five or six rows and show their work, you've got to get people walking up and down saying, "Wow, isn't that something? That's great!" Sure I've 51:00got a few favorites, but they're all my favorites. I like them all. I like what they do.

Little Thunder: It sounds like two-dimensional is sort of the art form that grabs you, the paintings...

Bonds: Oh, yeah.

Little Thunder: --a little bit more than the sculptures.

Bonds: Yeah. I think sculptures--I'm glad you asked that because I never really thought of it in those terms. I've got two or three sculptures, but I suppose in fairness I have to say I like pictures in my house and in my office that I never tire of looking at. I like pictures that when I walk in on Monday morning and see my Jeanne Bridges barn there--. Every once in a while, I'll sit there and 52:00look at it, and I'll find something new about it that I hadn't seen before. That's what I guess I'd have to confess appeals to me most about Native American art as opposed to sculptures and other forms because I get that kind of satisfaction just by daily enjoyment of looking at them. Sculptures, to me more than anything--like that cowboy behind you there with a rope, I love looking at that, but it doesn't have the same effect on me as paintings do. I'm glad you asked that! I'd never thought of that before.

Little Thunder: I was going to ask if your daughters are Native Art collectors, or possibly grandchildren? What do they think about your Native art?

Bonds: My daughters particularly--my oldest daughter, who's a nurse, lives in Phoenix. She has in her house every Red Earth poster since year one. They're on her walls. She also is a great friend of Jeanne's. I know I've overused Jeanne's name in this interview because she's special for other reasons. But, yeah, my oldest daughter is particularly proud of the whole history of Red Earth and of my involvement in it. All four of them are, but especially Linda. She will fight anybody over her dad's role in Red Earth for all these years. She's very proud.

Little Thunder: You mentioned how your involvement with the festival got you into collecting Native art. Can you think of someone else who might've not been so crazy about the idea, who ended up just really becoming a big Native art fan because of the festival?

Bonds: Well, yes, and I could say a bunch of people. Again, I don't want to start naming names because I'll leave out a bunch, but that has been one of the more fascinating results here of people who have become aware, going past that taking for granted Indians and Indian history. There have been a lot of "aha"s. 55:00"Hey! These people are good, and they are good for our town. They're good for our state. It's good for our image for people to know in a much more graphic way that these people are from Oklahoma, they learned their art here, and they are reason for us to be proud of them." Lots of "aha"s.

I can think of one who happens to be a close friend and one of my doctors. He and his wife, as far as I know, before had no particular interest in Indian art, have become avid volunteers for the event. Now, here's a busy doctor. I've seen him at the Red Earth event; he and his wife, both, selling t-shirts and prints. They are examples of people who have had a major turnaround in their attitude 56:00toward the value of Indian art. That, too, is a very good question I'm glad you asked. I hadn't thought particularly of that result right here in our town.

Little Thunder: What do you see as the future for the Red Earth Festival?

Bonds: I see it getting bigger and better for several reasons. Like any event like that, it grows in quality every year. The awareness of its value grows every year, probably slower than I would like to have seen but nevertheless there. But it will also benefit from the absolute rebirth of this city and the state of Oklahoma, but particularly Oklahoma City where I-35 and I-40 cross. 57:00Tourism, the awareness of the quality of life here, we're getting articles in the Wall Street Journal now about how young people in the East and all over the country are saying, "Hey, Oklahoma City is a great place to live!"

You know, that's not going to stop. That's going to get better, and it's going to grow. Red Earth has to be a beneficiary of that growing attitude that this is a great place, there's a lot to offer here. One of the things this area has to offer that nobody in the world can and that is its abundance of talented Native American artists who have art forms that you will find nowhere else in the world. Do I sound like the Chamber of Commerce with that? (Laughter) Red Earth has to be a beneficiary of the rebirth of this area.

Little Thunder: Right. Well, is there anything else you'd like to discuss before we--I think we're going to take a look at a couple of the Tigers since they're in here and that they are yours.Bonds: I would only like to summarize my own experience with Red Earth as the pride that I have, particularly in my partner Justice Kauger for the contribution that she made to get it started throughout the twenty-eight years that the event itself has been underway, the pride in seeing the event listed in the National Geographic, for example, and 59:00publications everywhere, seeing business people come through here. A major Coca-Cola executive came through here and spent a couple of years, and he became a Red Earth fan while he was here. Not only the whole area (his company looks to this area as a great growth area) but the quality of life thing is very important to them, and he particularly notes that Red Earth is an example of the uniqueness of this area.

From my vantage point now, I'm now an elder, which means I'm an old guy in the hierarchy of Red Earth, which means nobody pays attention to what you think 60:00anymore. Being in that category, I can look back with nothing but pride in having a small role in getting it started. I guess the only regret I would have is that we didn't do it a lot sooner than we did because it deserved to have life. It just took kind of an accidental conversation between two people at lunch to get the idea to germinate and to take off. Again, the only regret I have is we didn't start it twenty years sooner.

Little Thunder: How big is your volunteer force now? That might be a good way to summarize the growth.

Bonds: I don't know an exact number, Julie. I would have to put it in hundreds for sure. There are people who have done it for years and still want to sign up 61:00to help in any way they can because they sense the excitement. How could you not get excited when you see all the dancers come into the arena, for example? How could you not get excited walking up and down the aisles of the art section and not say, "Wow! This is wonderful stuff!" That pride and that awareness of the value of this art is what brings people back and say, "Hey, we want to do that again."

I don't know that we've ever had to fire any volunteers. (Laughter) We seem to attract enough of them. It's kind of an army they get over there that love to do this. The volunteer board members that give a lot of time and effort and money 62:00and influence to making it successful, you don't see them so much. They're not out there selling t-shirts, maybe, but they're sure making a large contribution to making it successful, lawyers, teachers, doctors, everybody who get involved in board membership or volunteering in any way. That also tells me that we started something that has value.

Little Thunder: Right. Okay, Ken, we're looking at some of the artwork from your office. Do you want to tell us about these pieces?

Bonds: Again, the barn is representative of one side of Jeanne Bridges' work, in addition to her wonderful work of Cherokee women. I love her barn scenes because 63:00I'm an old country kid, grew up on a farm, and that sort of scene is comforting to me. I just like it. As I said earlier, I never get tired of looking at a scene like that. Every day when I look at it three or four times, at least, I just get very much pleasure out of putting myself there with jeans and boots on, and maybe going in there and saddling the horse, and go riding around the meadow there for an hour or so to get my thoughts together. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: A real pretty sky on that one.

Bonds: Then I think the contrast of this Ben Harjo piece is an example of, I wouldn't say my favorite art form because my favorite art form is like the barn. 64:00This is a favorite of mine because I think Ben not only is a great friend and a wonderful guy, but I think he is one of the most talented artists in the country that I've ever seen who puts colors together in absolutely fascinating ways and depicts scenes in his unique format that are very pleasing and very appealing. I just think Ben is one of the best, and I love having one of his pieces in my office that I can look at every day.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you very much for your time today, Ken.

Bonds: Oh, you're very welcome. I hope it's turned out to be kind of what you were after. I know I'm not as good as Kauger, but hopefully I'm funnier than she is. (Laughter) I tell her, "Let me do the funny stuff, and you do the politics." She's a great lady.

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