Oral history interview with David and Molly Boren

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, May 13, 2014, and I'm interviewing the President of the University of Oklahoma, David Boren, and First Lady Molly Boren at the Boyd House in Norman. President Boren, among other offices, you've been governor of Oklahoma, served in the US Senate, and for the past fourteen years, you've been President of OU [University of Oklahoma].

D. Boren: Actually twenty years.

Little Thunder: Twenty years! Thank you for that correction! (Laughter) Molly, you have a law degree, you've served as a Special District Judge, directed a number of businesses and the Arts Institute at Quartz Mountain for a period, while serving as First Lady at the Oklahoma capital and here at OU . Today, I'd like to talk to both of you as supporters and collectors of Oklahoma Native art. Thank you for taking the time to interview with me today.

D. Boren: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Let's start with you, David. Most Oklahomans know that your father was a congressman. Your mother taught public school, and you spent a portion of your public school in Seminole, Oklahoma.

D. Boren: Yes, I spent the first ten years.

Little Thunder: Not as many people know about your art background, however. I wondered what kinds of artwork you might have had in the home growing up.

D. Boren: Well, from childhood I was exposed to art in the home and in my community. Mother particularly liked still life, usually flowers, and so our home was filled with artwork. Also, she loved glass, and she had a glass swan that I remember on the dining table which we are still privileged to own. I had cousins who were artists. James Boren, who was the first director of the Cowboy Hall of Fame, was my first cousin. Jodie Boren, his brother, another first cousin, is an artist. When we had family reunions, we sometimes had art shows along with it later on in life.

One of the greatest influences on me growing up as a child in Seminole was the mural painted by Acee Blue Eagle in our post office. It was painted as a WPA 2:00project. My father knew him very well, and I loved to go to the Post Office with him because I loved to see the Acee Blue Eagle. I suppose that was the beginning of my love and appreciation for Native American art, which is something that Molly and I have shared throughout our married life and lived with, much to our joy.

Little Thunder: What about you, Molly? You grew up in Ada, I believe.

M. Boren: No, I actually grew up in Stratford.

Little Thunder: Okay. Can you tell me a bit about what your folks did for a living and what kinds of art you had in your home?

M. Boren: Well, my father was a farmer-rancher, and my mother was a teacher. My grandfather was the local doctor. He and my grandmother were two of the original settlers of Stratford, as a matter of fact. It was a very small town, a farming community, and it was this small-town Oklahoma life in the 1950s.

Little Thunder: Did you have any art in your home that you remember consciously perceiving as artwork?

M. Boren: No, Julie, I really was not exposed to art in the true sense of art until I was in college. It was 1963. I was an intern in Washington, DC, that summer. I was in college at the time. I walked into the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC, and that was my first real exposure to art. I was a convert immediately and have loved and sought to be exposed to art ever since.

Little Thunder: Sometimes collectors themselves have been interested in drawing or painting. Was that your experience in grade school, David, at all or not?

D. Boren: No, not really. I've never--unfortunately, I didn't inherit the family gene if there is one for art. My first cousins inherited that. I don't think so. 4:00I did take art. I did take art in school, and I learned to draw such things as oranges and how to shade them. I felt very fortunate because today so many of our students are deprived of the opportunity of learning how to draw or learning how to paint or learning music. I think that that's a terrible mistake because it enriches your life, and even if I failed as a painter myself or in my drawing, it made me appreciate how much talent it took.

Little Thunder: How about you, Molly? Were there any art classes offered where you--

M. Boren: No, very small town. Someone asked me about art. Do I paint, or do I do anything, or do I play an instrument. I say, "No, but artists of all kinds, musical or painters, need an audience, and they need a market. I try to provide that." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Well put. Molly, you have Chickasaw ancestry.

M. Boren: No, I'm a card-carrying member of the Choctaw tribe.

Little Thunder: Choctaw tribe, okay. So what kinds of exposure did you have to Choctaw culture growing up?

M. Boren: Well, my grandfather, although my Choctaw ancestry came from my grandmother, my grandfather was very, very interested in Indians and Indian history and the history of the tribes in Oklahoma, so he taught us a great deal about that through stories. Then every summer he took all of his grandchildren--every summer we went to Anadarko to the Indian Exposition every summer, so my interest in Indian history, Indian culture really came from my grandfather who was non-Indian but was very, very interested in all things Indian.

Little Thunder: Would that have been the first example of Native art that you saw growing up?

M. Boren: Yes.

Little Thunder: At the Anadarko Exposition.

M. Boren: That's right.

Little Thunder: David, you attended Yale University for your undergraduate degree. Did you take any art appreciation classes there?

D. Boren: No, I'm sorry to say that I didn't, and that's one of the things that I corrected when our daughter went to Yale. I said, "We'll pay the tuition, but you have to take some classes in art history." She had the opportunity to take the great Vincent Scully, who used to write the introductory page for Architectural Digest, probably one of the greatest historians of both art and architecture in contemporary America. She made up for it by taking her classes. But I would say, going back to what Molly said, I was introduced to Native American culture very early, even though my grandmother was the one in our family, like her grandparents, that wanted us to learn about it, and she knew 7:00all about it.

Then the other thing was that growing up in Seminole County, which was the Seminole Nation, even though I was a little bit Cherokee, never on the rolls, but the family history and going back into looking at our ancestors in our family, it's very clear there was Native American heritage there, and we think it was Cherokee. The Seminoles used to hold outdoor brush arbors. They would hold stickball games. We were very close to Mekusukey Mission, and as children we were taken to Mekusukey for tribal meetings, athletic contests, food, sofkee, all sorts of things early on. Chief Chili Fish and others in the Seminole nation used to, they would hold encampments and spiritual meetings sometimes for two or three days at a time on our farm. I went often as a child with my father to 8:00attend the tribal meetings.

Little Thunder: What a great background. Betty Price noted, David, that when you asked her to help plan your inauguration, you wanted the arts to be a part of it. I'm wondering why it was so important for you to include the arts in your inauguration.

D. Boren: Well, I think the arts, they reach the soul of our culture and our heritage as people, so I asked Betty, who did such an amazing job for so many years, bringing art appreciation to the people of our state, our legislators, our public officials. The first art in the capitol building was really brought there by Betty Price. When I was to be inaugurated as governor, I wanted it to be as much as anything else a celebration of the arts. It was a celebration of the visual arts, of painting. It was a celebration of music. It was a celebration of drama, of all kinds. Some of it was classical. Some of it was my 9:00cousin, Hoyt Axton, who helped write such songs as "Never Been To Spain" and "Joy to the World," and a few of those songs, and my aunt who wrote "Heartbreak Hotel." Arlo Guthrie was a part of it. There were all sorts of different performances, dance, music, folk singing, and painting, so really the entire day of the inauguration was a celebration of the arts because I think the arts speak to us in our humanity and our deepest values. I think Oklahoma has such reason to be proud of great artists from our state and great art produced in our state.

Little Thunder: Molly, I know you came to the governor's mansion sort of towards the end of--

M. Boren: That's right.

Little Thunder: --David's term, but I'm wondering how much Native art was in the 10:00governor's mansion when you got there, and if you had the opportunity to add to that or not.

M. Boren: Yes, there was a lot of American--it was almost exclusively the work of Oklahoma Indian artists. After I moved to Washington, we included pieces of Oklahoma Indian art. Initially, that's all we collected, was the work of the Oklahoma Indians, so it was represented in our home in Washington, DC, as well as our home in Seminole.

Little Thunder: What was the first piece of Native art that you purchased together after you were married?

D. Boren: Mmm, can you remember? That's such a hard question.

M. Boren: We're talking thirty-seven years. (Laughter) Let's see.

D. Boren: I could tell you one of the first major pieces of art we purchased together was a Mirac Creepingbear entitled Arapaho--

M. Boren: From Doris.

D. Boren: --from Doris Littrell in Oklahoma City. We also purchased some of the 11:00work of the Kiowa Five. Of course, Jerome Tiger, also, and [Benjamin] Harjo and Merlin Little Thunder, and oh my goodness, [Gary] Montgomery, and I can't begin to say--. Dennis Belindo and Woogie Watchetaker. I can't--.

M. Boren: Larry, Larry Hood.

D. Boren: Larry Hood. I can't begin to remember all of the various artists.

M. Boren: Virginia Stroud.

D. Boren: Virginia Stroud, definitely Virginia Stroud. We have, I think, three Virginia Strouds at our home out on our farm that we live with and love every day, and one of her benches. Her work is also in the Cancer Center that we, Molly especially, helped with developing--. The eagle feather she gave us will 12:00become the symbol, or the feather she gave us, for the Cancer Center to go over the front door, the Stephenson Cancer Center in Oklahoma City in the OU Health Sciences Center. It will become the symbol of the Cancer Center. We felt having a symbol that really brings in the spirit--

M. Boren: Doc Tate [Nevaquaya] was another.

D. Boren: --of our native people. Doc Tate's another.

M. Boren: In fact, when you and I married, he already was collecting Doc Tate.

D. Boren: That's right. Doc Tate was among the very, very first.

M. Boren: He'd played the flute, even. He played the flute for events sometimes at the governor's mansion.

D. Boren: [Monroe] Tsatoke and [Stephen] Mopope. Oh my goodness, the great one we have out at the farm that we see, it's up high in our bedroom as we look. Who was it said he thought that was the greatest Native American artist of that period of time?

M. Boren: That's who Allan Houser always said--

D. Boren: Allan Houser.

M. Boren: --was Blackbear Bosin.

D. Boren: Blackbear Bosin.

M. Boren: We have a Blackbear Bosin.

D. Boren: We have also, of course, Allan Houser.

Little Thunder: David, as governor, one of the things you did was allocate seed money for the Arts Institute at Quartz Mountain in 1976. What kind of impact did Quartz Mountain have, do you think, for Native artists?

D. Boren: Oh, I think it's had a huge impact, and we've had Native artists, also, for the Oklahoma Foundation for Excellence. Every year, the poster is done by a Native American artist.

Little Thunder: How did that come about?

D. Boren: That was my idea. Again, it was capturing the spirit of Oklahoma. The Arts Institute, we were at the very end of the year, and they were trying to get it started. It was first started around near Tsalagi near Tahlequah, Camp Egan, later moved to, of course, Quartz Mountain. I remember I had five thousand dollars left at the end of the year in a severe weather fund. It was the last 14:00day of the fiscal year, and so we used that five thousand dollars, hoping there would not be another storm that night. (Laughter) We didn't see any predicted. That started Arts Institute. Then, of course, Molly has been so involved at the Arts Institute. She's been chair of the board of the Arts Institute. She helped get out and raise the endowment, private endowment for the Institute. Of course, Mary Frates was the leader of the Arts Institute during this period. Then Molly, after Mary retired, stepped in for several months as, actually, the president and CEO, the active leader of the Arts Institute, but most of her work was on the board and as chairman of the board.

M. Boren: I have to say Mary Frates was wonderful about having Indian artists, both Oklahoma Indian artists as well as--for instance, Fritz Scholder came, working with the Oklahoma Arts Institute students on painting. Indian artists have been represented very well at the Arts [Institute] and continue to be, as 15:00well as the poster every year for the Foundation for Excellence. In fact, Emily Stratton, who is the director, could probably--I'm sure they have one of every poster, and she could probably walk you--. Merlin has been one one time.

D. Boren: Yes, yeah.

M. Boren: You could call Emily Stratton at their headquarters, and she could give you a list. If you wanted, you could go see it. She would show you the posters for every single year from the beginning.

D. Boren: And at the Arts Institute every year, they have a Celebration of the Spirit with the Kiowa Black Leggings Society. Isn't it usually Kiowa? They've participated before.

M. Boren: Perhaps, when Mary was there.

D. Boren: When Mary Frates was there. They lead our commencement at OU. Were you saying something else about the Arts Institute? Sorry.

M. Boren: I was trying to think how many years. Julie, the first one was in 16:001987, so there'll be that many. If you start with counting 1987 through 2014--

D. Boren: Twenty-seven years.

M. Boren: --that's how many. No, it'd be twenty-eight because you would count '87, so it's twenty-eight years of posters.

Little Thunder: Of images.

M. Boren: I'm told that this year the artist they chose for this year is not from Oklahoma, but I think nearly all of the others have been Oklahomans.

D. Boren: And it's given art scholarships that also have gone to Oklahomans.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Another place where you both exercise tremendous influence in terms of increasing the Native presence is on campus at the University of Oklahoma. So once you became president, David, why was adding to that Native art important to you?

D. Boren: Well, I think what started it all is that there had been an exhibit of Allan Houser's work, of course, native Oklahoman. It had ended just as I was 17:00coming in as president, Molly was coming as First Lady. May We Have Peace which is at the end of the North Oval (it's sort of become a symbol of the university) was there. The students were so sad that the exhibition was ending, that his works were leaving, that they had a fundraising drive.

They went out and talked to Allan, how much would it cost. He, of course, cut the cost way back, just the cost of actually casting that piece, which is also at the vice president's home in Washington and was at the National Native American Museum on the mall, Smithsonian. They wore t-shirts, and they passed buckets at football games. It was the students' love of Allan Houser. Of course, now Molly has done most of the leadership of transforming the campus and endowing the gardens, bringing works of sculpture and fountains. There are 18:00others on campus.

M. Boren: There's another one of the Homeward Bound statue Allan Houser did that a couple originally from Maud, Oklahoma, lived in Dallas, gave to the university. It's also out on the campus. There's an Enoch Kelly Haney.

D. Boren: R. C. Gorman.

M. Boren: There's an R. C. Gorman sculpture. Let me think. Didn't Kelly's brother have one?

D. Boren: Yes, Bill Haney's--

M. Boren: Bill Haney--

D. Boren: There's a sculpture by Bill Haney on the campus. In Headington Hall, which is a new residence for our freshmen, in the rotunda is the Kelly Haney model of the smaller version of the Kelly Haney that's on top of the state capitol building. You cannot walk around this campus and escape Native American art.

M. Boren: Yes, and we had one of the faculty members who was head of the dermatology department gave his collection of Indian paintings, and they're hanging in the library. Students are exposed to American Indian art wherever they go, not just inside the museum. They're going to encounter it in the Student Union--we gave a large piece of Archie Blackowl's--

D. Boren: Archie Blackowl.

M. Boren: --is hanging in the Student Union. American Indian art, students on this campus are exposed to it everywhere they go, every day.

Little Thunder: That's great. The expansion of the Fred Jones Museum was part of the reason for that, David, also to have more room for Native art holdings?

D. Boren: Oh, absolutely. The [Eugene] Adkins collection, I received part of 20:00that collection, and also the [James] Bialac collection, both of whom collected incredible works, Native American works and pottery as well as paintings, artifacts--

M. Boren: [Richard and Adeline] Fleischaker, too.

D. Boren: --and the Fleischaker, collection, they also had quite a collection. So 90 percent of the collections at the OU Art Museum have come in the last twenty years, and we've added two new wings onto the museum to accommodate the growing collections.

Little Thunder: I'd like to switch to a more personal focus now about the role Native art plays in your home and your personal life, separate and apart from your institutional obligations. Whoever wants to answer, just jump in as you feel you want to answer. I was wondering how your tastes in art might have changed, Native art, might've changed over the years.

D. Boren: Well, I don't know that our taste in art has changed so much. We love the traditional and the Kiowa Five, of course, (had an opportunity here under the great Oscar Jacobson to paint, to be students, and their works were taken around the world) all the way through our very contemporary painters who are working today or who have worked recently. We're here at our home and just across from a T. C. Cannon that we recently were able to acquire for our art museum that's right behind us, of his grandmother. He did such remarkable things and blazed new ground, to Fritz to Merlin Little Thunder's work because you might say it's almost in a different style that doesn't necessarily always say 22:00it's Native American. Sometimes it does. It's traditional landscape painting in many ways.

We like it all. I think it's, you know, it's the appreciation that deepens, and living with it I think just reminds us about some of the things that all of us, whatever our background, can take away from Native American culture. What I always say to our students is one of the things we can learn from Native Americans is that art was not something to be put away in a museum, separate and apart from life. It was like air and water. You had to have it. There was beauty in the pottery that was used every day, beauty in the paintings on the tipis. Native Americans taught us not to segment art and to say, "Oh, here's art. It's something extra." No. It's part of the air we breathe and the water we drink, and I think that that appreciation is something we all take away from Native 23:00American culture. You want to add anything to that?

M. Boren: Yes. (Laughter) I explained to Julie that initially we confined our collecting to only Oklahoma Indian artists, American Indian artists, and later that changed. We expanded beyond painting to other art forms: pottery, weavings, baskets, bead work--

D. Boren: Sculpture.

M. Boren: --sculpture, and also, you know, Native culture, material culture. In that sense, I think that's one way in which our taste broadened. We became more inclusive and less exclusive.

Little Thunder: Focused on more media. How important is it for you to meet the maker of a piece of artwork at some point?

M. Boren: How important, did you say? Oh, I think it's always wonderful, 24:00especially if you've been seeing the work and maybe collecting it to finally meet the artist because the art, you buy a piece of art because it speaks to you. You know that it has something of the spirit of the person who painted it or weaved it or whatever. To meet the artist is always so interesting. You actually then have a chance to have a conversation about the piece of art you bought, and did it represent what you thought it did. I think it's enriching. The work of art then means even more to you because now you have a frame of reference you didn't have before.

Little Thunder: Is there a point at which you sort of felt like you were actually building a collection, or did that not really enter into anything?

M. Boren: Well, I don't think we either one ever thought--we were just buying things we like. Only later in retrospect we were, "Oh, we've got a collection," because we never sought to put together a collection. We were just buying things we liked.

D. Boren: Exactly right.

Little Thunder: How do the pieces live in your home? I mean, do you know right away where you're going to put them, or do they sort of stay in one place until you've figured that out? Do you move them around?

D. Boren: We usually are--I have to say this. She always says, "Now, just be sure it's the right place." I'm always anxious when we bring a work of art home to hang it or to place it if it's a piece of pottery or sculpture or something else. It's by mutual agreement. We don't really have too many arguments, but occasionally we can have a difference of opinion as to where a work of art should hang. In the end, I have to say Molly has the best judgment, and I'm 26:00always pleased in the end as to where something is. Once it's there, I really don't like to see it change very much. I like to know it's going to stay where it is.

M. Boren: Although because we continue to buy, even though we promise ourselves that's the last piece of art we're buying, so then we are, by necessity, we have to rearrange in order to accommodate whatever new piece we've just bought.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give to another Native art collector who is just starting to acquire?

M. Boren: My advice would be find an honest dealer who is very knowledgeable who will teach you.

D. Boren: That's where I would say we learned so much from Doris Littrell because to Doris Littrell, trading in American Indian art was not a business. It was a calling. She loved the art; she loved the artists. Again, she shared the 27:00feeling that it is so central to our heritage as Oklahomans and Americans. She wanted to see these artists who were coming on, she wanted to see them flourish. She taught us so much about historic Native American art, where it came from, who some of the first artists were, and then she taught us a lot about the contemporary artists and gave us a chance to meet them. She, more than, I think, any other person in Oklahoma, really helped teach all the people of Oklahoma that came in contact with her about Native American art, and she, I think, did more than anyone else to further the careers of contemporary Native American artists, including the young ones just coming up. They were like part of her family.

M. Boren: You know, one other bit of advice I would give to a new collector is go to museums. Look and look and look. Train your eye; educate your eye.

D. Boren: Yeah, I think that learning, (Molly's said this very often) appreciating art and understanding art and selecting art and becoming, if you want to call it, having a critical eye, is a matter of exposure. That's one of the reasons we feel so strongly about all of our sculptures should not just be in the art museum. All of the things we have here that are works of art should be out where students come to live with them. It becomes part of their life. In fact, they can't imagine life without it so that it's not only are they going to be great supporters of museums and great supporters of artists, but they're going to want art in their homes. They're going to want to live with art in their offices and in their surroundings and in the parks and their home communities. I think that's a very important part of what we try to teach, you might say: learning by osmosis.

Little Thunder: Okay.

D. Boren: And who's--who did the pot? We just had the show.

M. Boren: Christine McHorse.

D. Boren: Christine McHorse, yeah.

Little Thunder: What changes have you noticed as collectors in the Native art scene, maybe just between the '90s and 2000s.

D. Boren: I think some of it at times, as Native issues have become in a way civil rights issues, and we know all too well and sadly in our own history in Oklahoma, that our Native peoples were not always treated fairly. I used to examine land titles, and I would see situations back in history where a Native American in justice should have continued to own the land, but the land was somehow taken away through an unfair transaction. I think that in many ways, contemporary art, especially in the latter part of the last century and the first part of this century, began to be sometimes protest art. That's very understandable because I think in many ways Native people have not always been given the opportunities they deserve or the opportunity to preserve their own 30:00heritage, and I think that that's very important.

Also, Native art in some ways has followed other contemporary art in becoming more abstract, where it was very figurative in some ways early on or with very set designs. I think in many ways every period of art reflects the history of the times and the culture of the times. I don't think just because art happens to come from Native peoples, it comes from human beings, and human beings are always reflecting the times in which they live. It has evolved, definitely.

Little Thunder: What do you think could be done to better promote our state's Native artists and their work?

D. Boren: I think advertising it. We have such incredible collections, for example, that we really need to bring--people from across this country, across 31:00this world, want to see Native art. In fact, those that come from overseas, sometimes I would say it's at the top of their list. They need to know about the Gilcrease [Musuem]. They need to know about the Native collections and the Philbrook [Museum of Art]. They need to know about the National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. They need to know about the museum in Lawton, the museums, the collections in other parts of our state.

I think too often we don't understand ourselves what incredible treasures we have, and we do not let people from outside our state know that this should be an arts destination. Oklahoma should be an arts destination, especially for those people who want to learn about Native arts. I'm sorry to say the new Smithsonian museum is more about other things. It's more about digital histories 32:00and film. It's not enough about the actual material culture, the actual beauty of beadwork and leatherwork and painting and sculpture and pottery and the rest of it, things from the Hyde collection. They're not out. In Oklahoma, they can come to our great museums and see it out. If they stop off in New Mexico, there are obviously great collections there. There's some great collections in Arizona, but don't stop. Keep coming east. Keep coming to Oklahoma because actually you're going to see a greater treasure trove of Native arts here than anywhere, than any other state in the Union. I don't know, Molly, you may have thoughts on that, too.

M. Boren: Yes. I mean, how do we better promote it? If we can get people here--I'll give you an example. There's an annual lecture at our art museum, and 33:00a noted art historian comes in every year, is brought in to speak. The very first speaker was an authority on French Impressionism. He holds the McDermott Chair at the University of Texas at Dallas. He's internationally known as a great expert on French Impressionism, and he came. Before he lectured, the director of the museum took him on a tour. He had never been exposed to American Indian art before, and he went into a gallery. He literally was moved to tears.

It was his favorite thing in the whole museum, not our collection of French Impressionists, not anything--. He absolutely fell in love with it. He thought it was the most wonderful thing he had ever seen. I mean, he literally was moved to tears walking through it. Here's someone who's a great art historian, has a great eye, is an authority on his subject, French Impression, and yet this was 34:00not someone who disdained, "Oh this is not Europe," but who immediately recognized the beauty and was very, very moved by it. It was his favorite thing in the museum. It's not just the idea that very "sophisticated" people about European art would be turned off. Not so. Quite the contrary.

D. Boren: I'd love to see a show like the old Philbrook show resurrected in Oklahoma so that we provide that same kind of a juried show where we provide that same kind of encouragement, particularly to the very youngest artists, least experienced artists that are coming on. I hope that will happen because unfortunately it's just like the loss of Doris Littrell. She's retired. How many people are there like Doris to come on? They're irreplaceable, and when those 35:00great dealers who are also educators and they're also the people that provide a market--. The young artists need a market if they're going to survive and be artists. They have to feed their families and still do the art. I would love to see that happen one of these days. We work closely here with Jacobson House and with others trying to support that idea. Perhaps one of these days we'll be able to restore that juried show in our state.

Little Thunder: It was very important to a lot of artists' careers.

D. Boren: Right.

Little Thunder: Well, is there anything you'd like to add, anything that we haven't talked about?

D. Boren: I can't--can you, Molly, think of anything else you'd like to add?

M. Boren: You mean about--

Little Thunder: And we'll take a look at the individual art pieces.

M. Boren: --about Doris or about American Indian art in general?

Little Thunder: About Native art in Oklahoma.

D. Boren: Well, better than any archive or any library or any manuscript, to me, Native art and Native art as it's developed down through time really captures the spirit of Oklahoma, the essential spirit of Oklahoma. It could be Native peoples, it might be people who are not Native, but they have absorbed from our Native people, from the rich fabric that our Native people have brought to us and our society. They've absorbed so much of the spirit, probably without even knowing it. I think Native art really is the living history book of Oklahoma, and it captures it, captures our spirit better than anything else. Of course, I think the beauty of it is deeply satisfying. In so many ways, it's just the 37:00essential core of the people we are and what we contribute to the rest of the country.

M. Boren: The very name of our state, "Home of the Red Man," in Choctaw. I mean, this is who we are. This is who Oklahoma is. These are our roots. This is our heritage. What we find is when we bring people from other places, they love it. We just need to get them here. They always respond in the way you would hope they would. People have become collectors of American Indian art. We've had guests who've come from back East, who ultimately--like the Notos. He was the CEO of Exxon, not Exxon--

D. Boren: Exxon-Mobil.

M. Boren: -- of Mobil Oil Company, and they ended up being some of Doris' best customers.

D. Boren: Exposure, and people come to love it from everywhere. I think, again, 38:00the Europeans are some of those most taken with Native art.

Little Thunder: Well, we're going to pause and then take a look at a few of your artworks here.

D. Boren: Okay.

Little Thunder: Molly, would you like to tell us about this piece?

M. Boren: Yes, David got a call from Windsor Betts [Art Brokerage House] gallery in Santa Fe. This is a brokerage firm that only takes paintings or any kind of artwork on consignment and sells it for the owner. Because we had bought a T. C. Cannon woodblock print a number of years ago from them, they had us in their files, and so obviously they were calling anyone who had ever bought a T. C. Cannon from them. They called and said this very large T. C. Cannon had just come into their gallery from an estate, and they were calling to see if by chance we might be interested. David said, "Put it on hold. Send me a picture, dimensions, and price," which they did. He called back and said, "Sold." It 39:00arrived last week. David and I had bought this, and we've already given it to the art museum already. We're giving it in honor of Byron Price because in 1990, Byron Price, when he was director of the Cowboy Hall of Fame, had this huge T. C. Cannon show, which was actually our introduction to T. C. Cannon. It was probably the best and greatest and largest T. C. Cannon show ever. Because he introduced, we're giving it in his honor.

What we learned from Windsor Betts was this was the very last painting T. C. Cannon ever painted. They found it on his easel in his studio after he died in that accident outside Santa Fe. This is his grandmother, and he must have painted it with a lot of love. I assume it's been in someone's collection all these years. That was 1978, and he was only thirty-two when he died. We're assuming it was in some collector's collection until that person died, and now 40:00they're selling things from his or her estate. We're so glad, and the gallery folks--it'd be coming back to Oklahoma. We thought it was appropriate, too. Everyone will get to live with this T. C. Cannon because it will be in the Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. So how about this particular piece, Molly?

M. Boren: Yes, this is a watercolor by Merlin Little Thunder that David and I saw in Doris' gallery. In fact, we have three Merlin Little Thunders in our personal collection, all of which we bought from Doris. We love this one. We loved it. It's a very small painting, but we just love it. It's entitled My Father's Song. We'd assumed it might, indeed, be of his father or at least inspired by his father, but we love the painting. It spoke to us, and it still does. We live with it and love it, and we think Merlin is one of the great 41:00living American Indian artists, not just in Oklahoma but anywhere. This is a painting that we have lived with a long time and love very much.

Little Thunder: Molly, you want to talk to us about this weaving?

M. Boren: Yes. This is a Navajo weaving David and I found in Santa Fe. Unfortunately the dealer, who was from California, could not tell us a great deal about it. We knew it was old, and we knew it was special because we collect weavings. We knew this was most unusual and a superb example of the weaver's art. We love the colors; we love the composition. It was old, very old, and we bought it. It reminded us of an abstract painting almost. We thought it's a rare and very important weaving, we thought, so we bought it. We have given it to the Fred Jones Jr. Museum of Art, but we get to live with it here in Boyd House in 42:00the meantime.

Little Thunder: It's gorgeous. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Molly.

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