Oral history interview with Anita Caldwell Jackson

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Sunday, February 2, 2014, and I'm interviewing Anita Caldwell Jackson for the Oklahoma Native Artists Interview Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral [History Research] Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at the Tulsa Indian Arts Festival where Anita has just won First Place in painting this weekend.

Anita, you live in McAlester, Oklahoma. You were a teacher in the Kiowa Public Schools for many years, and you are now retired, doing art full time. You work in acrylics, watercolor, pencil. Even before you began doing sculpture, I remember seeing three-dimensional effects in your paintings, mixed-media works. You are well-known at the Trail of Tears art show, the Five [Civilized] Tribes Museum, Red Earth where you've won a number of major awards. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Jackson: You're welcome.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Jackson: I've lived in southeastern Oklahoma my entire life. I've actually lived 1:00within a twenty-mile radius of McAlester my entire life. I lived in a little town called Bache, which is east of McAlester. I was actually born in McAlester, and presently I live on the same street where I was born.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's amazing. (Laughs)

Jackson: I lived in Kiowa for most of my life in 1960. I moved to McAlester; I actually lived in McAlester for the first time in 2001.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Jackson: My dad worked at the ammunition plant. He was a timekeeper there. My mom stayed home for the most part. After the kids got a little bit older and teenagers, she worked in one of the sewing factories there in McAlester, and she did different things with sewing.

Little Thunder: Any brothers or sisters?

Jackson: I had two brothers. One is still living. They were two older brothers.

Little Thunder: How about your grandparents on either side?

Jackson: My grandfather, my Native heritage comes through my Grandpa Caldwell, and I didn't really get to talk to him much. He was alcoholic, and he wasn't around. Never lived with my grandmother the whole time I knew him, so I never really got to talk to him. At the time I was growing up, I didn't even know to talk to him. Then my mother's folks, I knew all the other grandparents and everything, but the one that my Native heritage come through, I didn't really get to know too well. He died when I was thirteen.

Little Thunder: What was your first memory of seeing Native art?

Jackson: My first memory of seeing Native art. I have a degree in art, and when 3:00I went through college, I wasn't influenced by Native American art. The Native American art shows, it's kind of worked in reverse because it's taught me about my Native culture. I didn't learn it through family, like I said, because I never really got to talk to the relative. My parents grew up during the Depression, so people were just worried about getting by. Art was just something that you didn't do.

I remember when I was doing a local show there in McAlester for years, and I was doing Native American people. Someone asked me why don't I do a Native American 4:00show. I didn't even know they had them, and I got to asking around. That's how I found out about the Trail of Tears show and the Five Civilized Tribes. That's where I started doing the Native American shows, so probably my first influence with Native American art would have been at those shows, although at art shows, you do see a little here, a little there, but I was actually doing some.

Little Thunder: Of Native art.

Jackson: Yeah.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of making art?

Jackson: Oh, we grew up where you didn't have a lot of toys. You didn't have all the games. People my age, probably, a lot of people did the same thing, so we had to make a lot of our own things. My mother used to entertain me by drawing paper dolls. She taught me how to trace and make clothes, so I designed their clothes. I remember one day she was just too busy to draw my paper doll for me, but I had watched her draw it, so I drew that face. I can almost still remember 5:00what it looked like. From that point, when I did finally go to school, I went to Bache School. They had first, second, third, and fourth in one room with one teacher, and then the fifth through the eighth in one room with one teacher. That was the entire school.

There was two teachers, so we had a lot of down time while the teacher was working with the fourth graders. I wound up drawing pictures of girls. I always drew faces for the older kids, the fourth graders, and that gave me that encouragement. It felt good, so I wanted to do it. I would make mud pies, but my mud pies would be faces. One of my jobs was to rake the yard after my brothers mowed the yard. I would rake it, the grass up, and I would rake it into little piles of pictures so that if an airplane flew over, (Laughs) they'd see a pretty picture. At a young age, I was always doing something like that. I think my 6:00mother's influence, making toys, just something to entertain us, we did our own entertainment, and I believe that's why.

Little Thunder: That's a great story about that.

Jackson: The airplanes? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Yes, that they'll see the art from the air. You sort of described your art experiences in, basically, elementary school, I guess. Any art classes that you had in secondary school or high school?

Jackson: When I moved to Kiowa in 1960, I was in the fourth grade. In the ninth grade, we had a gentleman, (Clark Ryan was his name) and he was actually a mentor to Reba McEntire because Reba went to school at Kiowa. He was musically inclined, but he was also artistic. They started an art program when I was in ninth grade, and we had to draw a picture to get into the program back then. I 7:00started with the art program there at Kiowa school in the ninth grade. When I graduated, I came back. I taught art there. When I retired, they stopped the art program. I was there at the beginning and at the end of that art program. They did start a music and drama program, so they still stayed with the arts, but the visual arts, as far as I know, they don't have a visual art teacher anymore. It started in the freshman year, high school.

Little Thunder: That's pretty unusual for that day. So you decided to attend college. Can you kind of walk us through how you chose?

Jackson: Okay. Growing up in a small school, we had no counselors. I actually became a counselor, too, so while I was teaching art, I was counseling.

Little Thunder: An academic counselor or--

Jackson: Just in high school counseling. Since I had no guidance, my parents gave me a choice. I could have a car, or they'd pay for my college. I decided I 8:00would take the college, and just take what you want to take. Well, I always loved art, so I'm going to major in art (I didn't know what I was going to do with it) and minor in PE because I liked to play basketball. I went to junior college, and I started with those two majors. Then when I transferred from a junior college to Southeastern [Oklahoma State University] in Durant for the four-year college, I enrolled late. I couldn't get all the classes I wanted. I got into mechanical drawing because it was drawing, and I thought, "Well, this may help me." I really loved the mechanical drawing, so I have a minor in drafting. I actually worked as a technical illustrator for a couple of years before I became a teacher.

When I graduated college, I did not want to be a teacher because I didn't want to be a teacher at the time. Then after I worked for two years, I got married, 9:00and my old high school art teacher, Clark Ryan, he told me that if I would go back and get my certificate, that we were going to have a position open. I went back and got my teaching certificate and then went on and got my master's in counseling, but that's how I wound up being an art teacher.

Little Thunder: So aside from mechanical drawing, did you feel like you got a good base in college?

Jackson: For art?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Jackson: You know, I would have done art with or without the college. There were some things--I didn't want to do, necessarily, what they were doing, but I did learn things despite myself. (Laughs) I just wanted to paint what I wanted to paint, and sometimes you have to do what they want you to do, but in doing that, I can see where it helped. Now, could I have done it without it, as far as the art? Yeah. You can take a class. I've not had very many art classes other than 10:00what I had in college. I took one workshop with Troy Anderson, and I only got to take half of it.

Little Thunder: Was it an acrylic workshop?

Jackson: It was, yes. It was acrylic painting. It was going to be two weekends; I could stay for one weekend. Then I think I had one other little course with another artist. Other than the college, the rest is self-taught, basically.

Little Thunder: And how old were you when you took the workshop?

Jackson: I was in my twenties, late twenties, probably.

Little Thunder: And in college you're still doing some Native subject matter when you get a chance on your own, or--

Jackson: In college?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Jackson: No, in college I hadn't gotten to that point yet.

Little Thunder: So you wouldn't be able to--

Jackson: There might have been some things.

Little Thunder: --you didn't really have a style of any kind that you--

Jackson: I was trying to fit into college, so I was trying to do what they wanted me to do, too--

Little Thunder: Right.

Jackson: --and it might be non-objective art. The Native influence did not come until I was well into my twenties and I started doing the art shows, the actual art shows, started showing my work. I actually started painting on leather. I've always experimented with different mediums, so I stretched chamois cloth. That's when the macramé thing was big, so I was using those big macramé rings, and lace and chamois cloths, and making fringe. I painted Native American people. I mean, I just did. I don't know why I did. I've noticed since then there's been--I know you haven't asked this. I've painted some things that I don't know where they came from. They just happened.

Little Thunder: I meant to ask you, too, do you sew? So did you have that sewing background from your mom?

Jackson: Well, I could have because my mother was a good seamstress, but because she was such a good seamstress, I didn't have to sew. (Laughs) I did learn how to.

Little Thunder: But you had the love of materials.

Jackson: The fabric, if you're going to get into the fabric, no. I can tell you how the fabric thing came about. I was at the Trail of Tears show. I had just started showing there, and it was in, probably, 1995, '96. The first painting that I did, I did a oil painting, and it was Indian blankets, Native American blankets. They went off the edge of the canvas. I entered that; I think that was the first thing I entered. I don't think I won anything on that one. Then I got to thinking about when you're in bed, and you're laying in bed as a little kid. I had two brothers, so we always had little cars. Well, you make the mountains, and you drive the car up the mountain. I thought, "I'll make blanket mountains." Then I did my Blanket Mountain Series, I called it, and I painted mountains that 13:00looked like blankets.

Then from there, I started seeing the calico cloth in some of the other paintings from other artists that they were painting the Native in the calico. I thought, "Oh, maybe I'll use calico." I thought about painting--I thought, "That'd be hard to paint, all those little flowers. There's got to be an easier way." (Laughter) I started experimenting with the cloth. When I first started, it was three-dimensional. I wrinkled it up and tried to make the folds out of the cloth, but it didn't look right. Then I tried cutting it and putting it on top of each other, and it still didn't look right. Finally, I got it down to where I--and I still do this. I have so many things that I do that I don't always do it all the time. I need to do some more pieces. I piece it together like a puzzle, so each piece is, it's flat. It sits together flat, and it's smooth that way. Then I can, I go on with the process from there.

It came from that blanket picture. It went to the blanket mountains. Then I saw 14:00the calico, and I was going to make calico mountains. Since then I have made faces and animals and whatever I wanted to out of the calico material, but it was really good for me. I haven't seen anyone do it except one guy, and I was at the Eiteljorg [Museum of American Indians and Western Art] show. This was years later. He was from the Southwest, (I can't remember) New Mexico, Arizona, somewhere. I looked at his stuff, and he looked at me. (Laughter) We eyed each other suspiciously, but neither one of us knew each other. That was the calico.

Little Thunder: Must have been on parallel tracks. (Laughter) Who were some of the Native artists that you admired when you first started showing?

Jackson: Well, Troy Anderson, of course. (Laughs) Anyone that was at that Trail of Tears show, Gary Montgomery, Troy Anderson, these people, they were winning all the time. I sort of started the same time Jeanne Rorex and Dorothy Sullivan. 15:00I can't even think of some of their names now, but there was a group of us, of women. We actually had a seven Cherokee women Legends show that traveled. I just lost her name. Bert Seabourn's daughter.

Little Thunder: Connie.

Jackson: Connie, I think Connie was in it, and Mavis, the basket maker--

Little Thunder: Doering.

Jackson: --Doering. We had seven women in it. We just did legends. I met all those people from the Tahlequah show, so that's probably the ones that influenced me the most.

Little Thunder: Now, who put together the seven--

Jackson: It wasn't me. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Was it hosted by a museum, do you remember? I remember--

Jackson: Siloam Springs had the museum there, and I know we went to a show there. I don't think the gallery's there anymore. It wasn't a museum.

Little Thunder: Oh, the Indian Paintbrush Gallery.

Jackson: Yeah, Indian Paintbrush Gallery. It was one of the seven girls, or two or three of them that got together.

Little Thunder: That helped--

Jackson: Yes.

Little Thunder: --produce the show, and then you all traveled with it?

Jackson: Actually, our work traveled.

Little Thunder: Just your work, okay.

Jackson: The work traveled, and then we did a few shows where we actually went.

Little Thunder: What were some of the places you went?

Jackson: Well, the Indian Paintbrush Gallery, for one. It's been quite a few years ago. I'm not sure I could remember all of them. We didn't go to that many places.

Little Thunder: You didn't go back East at all?

Jackson: No, no, it wasn't too far, but it was a great idea. It'd be a good idea to do again for somebody, the seven and the legends.

Little Thunder: Right. Sometimes the business side of art is the hardest to get a handle on. What did you learn about business, the business of art in those early years? Of course, I realize you're teaching during the week, too, but--

Jackson: In the early years, I didn't do that many shows. I didn't have a display to even set things up. Sometimes I would even ship things to a competition. I'm very competitive, so I like the competitions. I would take and leave. The business part of it, I wasn't in it to make the money because I did have a job and I taught school. Since then, I'm learning. I'm still learning about the business, and I don't think anybody really enjoys the business part as much as the creating part.

Little Thunder: How did you figure out how to price your work?

Jackson: I think that comes as you do it. Like, I started out cheaper, and as you go, you see what something sells for. You see what other people are selling it for. I want people to have my art. I don't want to keep it all. I paint 18:00rather quickly. I can produce quite a bit, and I don't think I'm overly priced. I think probably I'm underpriced on some of my stuff, but like I said, I want it to get out there. I think as an artist you price it as you get better, as you win more. You know how much work you have in it, what it means to you, so you price it there. Would I rather have that piece of art or this much money?

Little Thunder: While you were teaching, did you have family responsibilities, as well? How did you juggle that and the artwork?

Jackson: By teaching school, I had my summers off. I have one son, and of course, as a schoolteacher, it doesn't end when the day's over. It continues on 19:00and on, and I managed to do it. Like I said, I can work rather quickly with art, so I had no problem producing the art. I loved it, and I didn't mind doing it. There was no problem juggling the family, the art, and the job.

Little Thunder: When you were teaching, what kinds of things did you try to pass on to your students in terms of art?

Jackson: I think one of the things is the creativity part. You don't tell them what to do. You give them an idea and encourage them to be creative, just to let them know all the good stuff that can come from being an artist or doing art, even if nobody else likes it. If you like it and it makes you feel good, it's a great thing for kids and adults. People should do art even if they're ninety. You don't have to do it when you're six. You can start now if you want to. I 20:00think everybody can be an artist in their own way and do what they are proud of, what makes them feel good. Of course I'd love to teach to be better artists, and I had some really good students go through. Some of them went on to do art, and some of them still are novice. Yesterday, I had a young man come by my booth. Well, he's not young anymore; he's fifty-two. He's still drawing, but he won't show his work anywhere. I'm still trying to encourage him to show his work.

Little Thunder: How did the teaching impact your own artwork, do you think?

Jackson: The teaching? Well, a time or two, I've done a few paintings that you could tell I was a schoolteacher. I did one called (let's see if I can get that title right) What Will Be Left is What is Taught. I had a book open and there 21:00was a little Native boy there. Then I had faces in the background. In that way a time or two, I've done a painting or a piece of artwork that might look as if I were a schoolteacher, but as far as it influencing my art personally, I'm not sure that the teaching influenced my own art.

Little Thunder: So what was your first major award, and how did it impact you?

Jackson: I think the first major award, probably the one that I remember, was at the Trail of Tears show. The judge (it was about the second year that I entered) was the editor of Southwest Art Magazine. Suzanne--

Little Thunder: Susan Hallsten McGarry.

Jackson: --yeah, and I did a picture. I had a little elderly man holding a chicken, and I called it The Brave and the Chicken. I think she liked the title; 22:00I won a Merit. I think they had merit awards then. Because it was her and it was that book, I think probably that was the first one that really meant something to me.

Little Thunder: What was one of your important galleries early on?

Jackson: You know, I've never really done a lot of galleries, but the best gallery was in Sapulpa, Shirley Wells. Name of the gallery--

Little Thunder: Indian Territory Gallery.

Jackson: --Indian Territory Gallery. I love Shirley. Shirley and myself and Bert Seabourn all have the same birthday, so that was kind of cool. I did get a piece that went to Paris because she took a exhibit to Paris one time and I had a piece. That was a big deal for me, to have a piece go to Paris, France. She actually sold some things for me, and I really didn't go into too many galleries. I lived so far away, it was hard for me, teaching school, hard for me 23:00to go back and forth and change things out. I really haven't done a lot of galleries. Still don't.

Little Thunder: Did you do any out-of-state shows, or probably not until you got into this...

Jackson: No, I did out-of-state shows. I mailed to South Dakota directly. (Laughs) I shipped things for competition. Lawrence, Kansas, I shipped up there just for the competition, but I didn't actually go and set up until I started doing it full-time.

Little Thunder: Right. So maybe just in terms of the art show landscape rather than galleries, how did the Indian art scene change, do you think, from (and you're just dropping in on it, I understand, periodically during the ʼ80s) like from the ʼ80s to the ʼ90s?

Jackson: Well, I think that when 9/11 happened, that changed a lot. I would find myself going to a show for the first time, and everyone would say, "Oh, this used to be a good show." I would seem to be getting in on the end of it when it was dying. Before 9/11, I had some of the better shows I've ever had, and since then, something happened. I'm not sure. There's been some good shows since, but I think that was probably the biggest change I've seen in the landscape of the shows, from that event.

Little Thunder: In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed that required artists to provide proof of tribal enrollment, or be certified by their tribe as artists who could represent that heritage. Do you remember the impact of that 25:00bill on galleries or individual artists or shows?

Jackson: Well, because I wasn't involved with galleries, I know that it has affected some individuals. When I was in McAlester, I did one art show a year. It was the Italian Festival. That's when I was doing the leather work with the Native Americans on it. Someone, I don't even remember who, came to me and said, "Why don't you go to--have you ever thought about doing a Native American show?" I said, "I didn't know they had Native American shows." I didn't know anything about them. I said, "I'm Native American, but I don't have a card." They said, "They'll take you on your word." I said, "Oh, okay," so I started going to the Five Tribes Museum in Tahlequah to the Trail of Tears show.

Then, when the law came, I thought, "I'm going to have to do something here. I'm 26:00not going to be able to go." Talking to family members, I actually met a great-aunt that was, she was married to my great-uncle who I never met. Her father-in-law was my Native grandfather. Her name is Winnie Gibson, and she was about eighty at the time. She's actually in Charles Banks Wilson [Search for the Purebloods]. She's one of his subjects. She's full-blood Choctaw, and she was married to Adam Gibson, who was my great-grandmother's brother. My great-grandmother was the first child. There were four wives, and she was with 27:00the first wife. There was actually twins: Adam and Eva. They were the last two children from another wife.

My mother, when we moved to Kiowa in 1960, told me about Aunt Eva, but I was eight years old, so I didn't really care about it, and I didn't even think at the time to ask questions or anything. It wasn't until I was in the twenties that Aunt Eva had already passed away, but Winnie Gibson, the wife of Adam, was still alive. I went to her house and visited with her, and she signed an affidavit that her father-in-law was Native American, who would've been my great-grandfather. With that information, (that's all I had) I'm a state-recognized Cherokee, Echota Cherokee, and that's what I have. That's all I have right now.

Little Thunder: I understand after you retired, for a couple of years you still 28:00taught art a couple of times a week. As you're transitioning from teaching into doing art full-time as a profession, did that sort of help to have that teaching a couple times a week?

Jackson: I think the teaching was purely for financial reasons. I had retired on my own. I wasn't sure, financially, and so I thought, "That'll give me three years to see how I'm going to do, just doing the art and on teacher retirement." I loved the job. I kept an elementary art program going for three years and did their yearbook. It was great. I went on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and then I had a five-day weekend, so it was great.

Little Thunder: Uninterrupted art time. You've been going to the Cahokia Mounds 29:00show for several years, and you won the People's Choice Award there, I read, two years in a row. What do you like about that show?

Jackson: The people. I love the people. Of course, it was exciting to go and learn about the mounds, and the museum is a wonderful museum. It's a small, intimate show. The people are so nice. We made a lot of really good friends through that show. It's a good place to get to know artists better. At every show, there's a group of artists that go, and you get to know them. Every year you sit with someone different. You get to know them; you make friends. I think it's just the fact of the people, basically, that I really like that show.

Little Thunder: Is there a funny show story or travel story that stands out for you?

Jackson: Well, I love humor. I'm not sure if there's a funny show story that I 30:00could tell, or a travel story, but I can tell you about some of the humor. I love humor in paintings, and I've had several paintings that were humorous. I would love to have a whole display of just humor, but I tell everybody I'm just not that funny. I can only do, like, three, and then I'm not funny anymore. (Laughs) I had one that I had a little baby raccoon and a can of Libby's corn. So you know what the title was. The titles, I think, are real important to it. I called it Cancun, and I spelled it C-A-N-C-U-N.

Well, I had it the same time I had Custer's Last Stand, and Custer's Last Stand--I had a hard time finding these because it's politically incorrect, little plastic cowboys and Indians like you would buy. I still have them because I saved them. I may need them again. I painted one little plastic cowboy. I 31:00think he was green. Then I had these rows of Indians, red, yellow, and blue. It was a huge painting. I had some, it looked like tooled leather. I called it Custer's Last Stand. They were all aiming at him. (Laughs) I've had several really funny--I have one called There's a Hare in My Soup. I think I had one, it was Old Wives' Tales. It was just three women bending over, picking up logs. People love humor. I've noticed a lot of humor in Native work, and that's a good thing.

Little Thunder: One of the three-dimensional effects that I enjoy in your painting is when you use wild turkey feathers. Sometimes you put them on your women, and they sort of function as a cape, which, in fact, wild turkey capes are traditional capes.

Jackson: Yes.

Little Thunder: How did you get the idea of using the wild turkey feathers?

Jackson: I saw people painting on feathers. I thought, "I can do that," so I 32:00did. Then because I didn't want to be just like them, I started cutting out the edge of the feathers. From there, people started giving me feathers. I had the beautiful little feathers, but they weren't big enough to paint on. Just looking at one one day, I saw the fringe on the end, and I thought, "Oh, that could be a shawl." I turned it upside down, used the scissors a little bit, and from there, I started using all the little feathers I could find for their capes. I haven't seen anyone else doing that yet, but it works really well. If you see one of my pictures and it has a cape, it's probably a feather.

Little Thunder: Yes, we're going to look at one here in a little bit. What's an object or material you've begun using lately that's relatively new for you?

Jackson: The leather. I've always wanted to do three-dimensional. I haven't had 33:00the equipment. I'm not in a good area as far as foundries. I've taken some clay classes. I've wanted to do three-dimensional. I've taken some wood-carving classes, but that takes a little long. I found leather, and I love the leather. In July, in fact, I've been doing it about six months now. It's been pretty successful. I've won some awards with it already in 3-D. I've never entered in 3-D before. I'm also incorporating paint with the leather, so I'm using my painting and 3-D. You could probably, in a month or two, see some feathers in there or some cloth. (Laughter) I'll put it all together one day. I'll have everything right there in one piece.

Little Thunder: Although it can be expensive.

Jackson: Well, you know, when you think about it, I can get a lot of money in a frame because I don't--I may buy a frame and put something in it, but I don't 34:00make any frames. I don't do it, so I go to a frame shop. I may have three hundred bucks in a frame. The leather is expensive, but when I think about taking it and having it framed and matted, it's probably not any more expensive than a painting.

Little Thunder: You recently illustrated a book, So We Bought the Farm.

Jackson: Oh. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I wondered what that process was like.

Jackson: I didn't know you had that information. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: It's a cute title. I found it on the Internet.

Jackson: Well, actually from Cahokia Mounds. One of the guys that we just love so much was always telling these funny stories. He decided he was going to do his first e-book, so he asked me, would I do some little sketches for it. I said, "Sure." I loved him, so I thought, "I'll help you out." So I just did them. In fact, I gave them to him--

Little Thunder: So they were pencil sketches?

Jackson: No, no, I did little--everything I do, it sounds like "a little 35:00sketch," but it gets into something else. No, they wound up full-color little pictures. I wound up doing, maybe, more than I thought I was going to have to. I was just doing it as a favor to him. I mean, he could have paid me or whatever, but I just gave them to him. The editor that did the book, he shared his percent with me, so I've actually gotten a little a bit of money from that project. It was fun to do the book, and since, I've learned that, hey, I get a little check! I'm thinking maybe I ought to do some more book illustrations. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Your first royalties, yeah.

Jackson: I didn't realize that was out there.

Little Thunder: You have the name Two Nations. Is that right?

Jackson: Two Nations Art.

Little Thunder: Two Nations Art for your business. Can you explain why you chose that name?

Jackson: There's a couple of reasons. Well, actually three, I guess. I was looking for a name, and the Two Nations because in my Native blood, an eighth is 36:00all I could be. That means I'm seven-eighths something else. If you're seven-eighths something else, there's two nations involved there. Then, my boyfriend who was from Canada, he was going to be my business manager. We still work together. He does art, so there's two nations: Canada and the United States. It's both of those things. It was the Canadian-United States; the Native American and whatever else I am, which I'm not sure of. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You work in a variety of media, as we've mentioned, acrylics, watercolors, pencil. You sculpt. What is your favorite and why?

Jackson: I think my favorite's what I'm doing presently. I tell everybody I'm like a kid on a playground. I'll play with the feathers for a while, and it 37:00sparks something else, another idea, and I'll go to the leather, or I'll go back to the fabric, or I go to the regular painting or drawing or a combination of all these things. I think it's whatever I'm working on. That's my favorite thing to do.

Little Thunder: In terms of acrylic paintings, how has your palette changed over the years?

Jackson: My palette?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Jackson: You mean my color? I'm not sure I have a color. Do you see a color?

Little Thunder: Your range of colors.

Jackson: I know this has always confused me, myself, about my work, is that it doesn't look all the same. I don't think I have a palette. Some people, you can tell their work because they use a lot of the same colors. Maybe I do and I just don't notice it because I'm too close to it, so you'll have to tell me if I have 38:00a palette. I'm not sure I have a certain palette that I use.

Little Thunder: What role does story play in your work?

Jackson: Oh, I think it's very important. Story playing--I'll do little paintings that I call my sellers. They may not always have a story, something you just do and people like them, but the big pieces, the competition pieces, I think they all ought to have stories. I think it's very important. Some of those stories, that's what I was saying, some things have come out that I didn't know was in me, things I didn't know about my own heritage.

One thing, I did a picture of a woman in a corn. She was coming out of the corn. I knew seven was a sacred number, and I had seven babies in the corn, almost like an Ann Geddes type of thing. They were in there. Dorothy Sullivan said, 39:00"Oh, you did Selu," and I said, "Who's Selu?" I didn't know who Selu was. Then I did a picture once, and this isn't my own heritage. I did a coyote, and I had a man's face in the coyote. Then I find out that that is (I'm not sure which Plains tribe it is) where the coyote can change into a man. I've done several pieces like that, that I've done, and then someone's told me the story. There was a story there, and I didn't even know it was there.

I do stories. In fact, I'm working on the leather pieces. I'm trying to do some with legends, and I would love to have stories. I'd love to do just a Cherokee legend and have a whole display that's just legends. Whether it be painting or sculpture, I think it'd be a great teaching tool and a great way to preserve what the Native culture that I think these shows are attempting. That's the 40:00purpose, one of them.

Little Thunder: You've sort of talked about your titles, how some of them are plays on words and humorous. Do they always come easily? Is it sometimes a--

Jackson: Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, and names do change from time to time. (Laughs) I'll think, "What did I name that," and it'll get a different name. A lot of those names come, driving down the road. You're thinking, "What am I going to name that?" Like, I just did a piece. I just finished a huge, the biggest sculpture piece I've done. It's over four foot tall. I did it with the Three Sisters: the corn, beans, and squash. At the time, I knew corn, beans, and squash. I had forgotten it was called Three Sisters, so I was doing some research to see. I'd already had the corn, beans, and squash on 41:00it, so since it's a woman, I call it The Fourth Sister. Names sometimes come easily. I have had the title before the picture before.

Little Thunder: Do you keep track of them in a notebook or--

Jackson: Well, after a while, they're committed to memory. I haven't kept track of my art as good as I should have. There's pieces that have gotten away that I can't remember.

Little Thunder: How about your signature? That's sometimes an art, to place your signature on a painting.

Jackson: Right now, mine looks like a stamp, but it has evolved. In high school, because I started doing artwork in high school, sold a few little things in high school, I had "A. Caldwell." Then when I got married, I took the Jackson name. I went to "A. Caldwell Jackson." Then from there, it's evolved to "Caldwell 42:00Jackson." It just looks like I said, a stamp, and sometimes I'll write something in the middle of the stamp. That's where it is today. That's on original work. I considered on the sculpture. I thought, "Am I going to do the same signature as I do on the paintings?" I'm not sure. It's too new, yet.

Little Thunder: How important is sketching for you as a preliminary process?

Jackson: You know, I do very little. My work, I have an idea in my head, and I will sketch some things. It depends on what it is, but for the majority of things, it develops as I go. If I have a sketch, I feel like I'm limiting myself, and if my mind sees something else and wants to go there, then I'll go 43:00there. I'm not going to let that sketch stop me from doing what I feel needs to be done.

Little Thunder: Now, you mentioned that you're working quite a bit with leather in your sculpture. What other materials are you using?

Jackson: In the leather, because I've only been doing it since July, six months, I'm still experimenting with it myself, but I have figured some things out. I want it to be solid. I have found that I can fill them full of Styrofoam, and the Styrofoam will swell up. Even though the leather is hard and it would probably be okay, but I travel with these things and pack, so the more solid it is the better it is. I have found that if I fill them full of Styrofoam, it's lightweight; it's going to be durable. If it's true what they say about 44:00Styrofoam plastic cups in the landfills, it's going to be there for thousands of years. I figure maybe that'll be there for a thousand years, too. (Laughs) That's my thinking on that.

Little Thunder: And then for the faces are you using something like Sculpey, or are you--

Jackson: No, no, the faces are leather.

Little Thunder: The faces are leather, too, okay.

Jackson: Everything is leather. I've done a few clay pieces, and it was usually faces when I'd do. I have to mold the leather, wet it and mold it. I've found that I can carve in a hard Styrofoam easily and get a shape, and then I can mold leather over that, and then manipulate it with tools. But no, there's no Sculpey involved. It's all leather. I'm still playing, so ask me in six months, and we'll see what I'm doing with it.

Little Thunder: Yeah, it's a really interesting technique. Describe your 45:00creative process from the time you get an idea.

Jackson: There's always ideas running around in my head. (Laughs) When I go to a show, because all other distractions are gone, if you're looking at your work, sitting and looking at your work, you're bound to get some ideas, seeing other people's work, too. I sit and look at mine, and I think of what I want to do next or what I want to change. The creative process, you just can't make any rules. If you set limits, you're going to stop yourself from doing something. That's why I've always liked to experiment with the mediums, and that's how I come up with the calico material. Whether someone's done that before or not, I hadn't seen it, and so that was creative for me. That was my creative idea. The feathers, using them the other way. The leather. I did see one little piece of 46:00leather in a guy's house, and I thought it was a piece of driftwood. I asked him, "Is that wood?" and he said, "No, it's leather." That was in July, and that's what got me thinking about leather. The creative process is continually going up here. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What is your creative routine? Do you try to work every day? Is it mainly in the morning or night or--

Jackson: Presently I'm living by myself, so I have a lot of time. My best time is early in the morning because my mind is fresh, and I can get up and I can start working on stuff. I can work as long as I want. Either that or late at night. I can work all day. I mean, it doesn't really matter, but early in the morning I'm the best, I think.

Little Thunder: Well, looking back on your career so far, what has been a 47:00pivotal moment when you might have gone down one road but you took another?

Jackson: I'm not sure because I don't know if I feel like I've gone down too many roads. Maybe some personal things, but not in art. I can't think of, art-wise, any roads that I haven't gone down that I didn't want to go down, or if I even had a choice. I don't think I've gone down any wrong roads in art that I know of.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points of your career so far?

Jackson: The high points of my career. It's almost like the painting you're working on is the one you like the most. The thing you're going through is the 48:00one you like the most. I still have some goals. Like there's been some shows I've been in, I've never won Best of Show. I haven't won a lot of Best of Shows, but I've won a lot of awards. I did get the Governor's Community Service Award this year.

Little Thunder: Oh, well, congratulations.

Jackson: And that was--

Little Thunder: In the arts.

Jackson: In the arts, and that was because of the work in McAlester. We opened a gallery, and I had designed an eighty-foot mural. Myself and another guy painted it for free. We worked from May until August one year. It's probably twelve foot tall, eighty foot long, and it's trompe-l'oeil, outdoor. It looks like a art show going on underneath the building. Then we had local artists come and paint 49:00the little pictures. I think doing that mural, even though it wasn't Native American in nature, it certainly has opened some doors.

I've done some other murals since then. The community just appreciated it so much, and I've had a lot of people say how good they think it is for the community. I've always wanted to give back something to the community, so that is probably one of the highlights. I'm not sure if it was doing the mural or getting the award. The award was nice, but the mural, I think the people appreciated it so much, that was good. And opening the gallery because we have a non-profit gallery now. It's not just my gallery. I'm one of eight that help run it.

Little Thunder: A co-op kind of?

Jackson: We pay rent. Some people just rent spaces, and they don't work. It's 50:00just to keep it open, having a gallery there in McAlester, a lot of new people. I think the teacher thing comes out in me because I'm wanting these young people to come. We have a wall for newcomers can hang for free, and we only charge 10 percent commission. It's there to promote the art and the artists in Southeastern Oklahoma because we don't have a lot of galleries down there.

Little Thunder: That sounds wonderful. What's been one of the low points in your career?

Jackson: Low points in my career. Maybe when I first started because--and I tell this to students. In fact, I told it yesterday to some of the students that were showing their, or, whenever the students, Friday morning possibly, when they were walking by and looking at the art. I told them, I said, "I'm glad you entered because even if you don't win, if you don't enter, you've lost. You're a 51:00loser." I remember my first show there at the Italian Festival, and this was when I was doing the things on the leather. The first year I entered, (I would probably have been twenty-three, twenty-four years old) I won an Honorable Mention, and I sold a drawing for seventy-five dollars. I was so disappointed that that's all I did because I wanted to win a First, a Second. I wanted to sell a lot of stuff. I was so disappointed. I entered that show seven more years. I didn't win anything; I didn't sell one thing for seven years. That was probably my low point. I mean, I did zero that whole time. You kept going, and that was the only show I did. I really looked forward to that show, and then I was always disappointed every year. That may be my lowest point.

Little Thunder: But you persevered.

Jackson: I did, and it paid off. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Well, is there anything else you'd like to talk about before we take a look at three of your artworks?

Jackson: I can't think of anything that I probably haven't already said.

Little Thunder: Okay, we're going to pause a minute and take a look here. So we're looking at your painting that you won First Place on here at the art show, in painting. Do you want to tell us a little bit about this?

Jackson: Okay, the name of it is Time for Cobbler. I do a lot of women. I probably paint more women than I do men. I do a lot with the fact that they gathered the berries and the nuts, and they did a lot of the crops and the food making. I try to incorporate some of the cloth, even though I didn't use the actual cloth on this one.

Little Thunder: Yes, and your folds that you--

Jackson: Yes.

Little Thunder: --always love to represent. These are huckleberries? Is that what you--

Jackson: Blackberries.

Little Thunder: Blackberries, yeah.

Jackson: Blackberries.

Little Thunder: That's nice. How about this sculpture?

Jackson: Okay, this is one of the leather pieces. It's one of the smaller pieces. It's also one of the pieces that is describing a legend. This is The Race Between the Hummingbird and the Crane. If you'll notice, there's a beautiful woman on the front, and then as we turn it around, (I don't know if the camera will pick it up) there's a crane painted here. You have the hummingbird here. This is just artistic design, but it does represent the story.

Little Thunder: Oh, there's a crane inside.

Jackson: The crane's inside.

Little Thunder: Oh, what a neat--

Jackson: The leather is very lightweight, and I think I have a design on the top of it. This piece happens to be hollow inside.

Little Thunder: That's really going to be a neat path to continue exploring. And 54:00how about this piece, Anita?

Jackson: Okay, this is one that has the feathers for the capes. They're turkey feathers. It was done on a photograph that I had printed on a watercolor paper. The photograph was trees, a burned-out forest. There was no snow, so I went back, and I painted the snow. I painted the orange glow in the back and the orange sun in the back and the women. This is one I have--I do different things to the photograph. I call it one of my sellers, things that I can sell because I can do them a little quicker. I've painted it with campfires and maybe three women, two women, horses, houses, just whatever I want to put into the photograph.

Little Thunder: And we can see your signature there, too.

Jackson: That's my little stamp.

Little Thunder: Your little stamp, yeah. Well, great, really neat. And the title on this, did you mention it?

Jackson: I normally don't--these are my sellers, and I don't always have a title for them. I don't consider this a major piece, and I really haven't titled it, but you're welcome to name it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, thank you so much for your time today.

Jackson: You're welcome.

------- End of interview -------