Oral history interview with Yvonne Kauger

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, January 22, 2014. I'm interviewing Oklahoma Supreme Court Justice Yvonne Kauger for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at the judicial center on the capitol grounds of Oklahoma City. Justice Kauger, your life has an amazing trajectory from growing up in Colony, Oklahoma, to becoming the first woman chief justice of the Oklahoma Supreme Court. Your story can be found in OSU's Oklahoma Women's Hall of Fame digital collection, but today I'm here to talk with you about your love of Native art, your work in helping found the Red Earth Indian Arts Festival, and other matters pertaining to Native art in Oklahoma. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Kauger: Thank you for asking me.

Little Thunder: You grew up on a farm. Did you have much art in the home growing up?

Kauger: My daddy had an Acee Blue Eagle, and our house burned when I was in the 1:00eighth grade. I thought about that the other day. That was one of the great tragedies, and that was one of the things that he grieved for most, I think. He went to school with Archie Blackowl, so that sort of connects--they were best friends. He was a little town boy, and Archie was at the school at Colony. They threw rocks at each other as children and grew to be best friends.

Little Thunder: That's a neat story. When you were little, do you remember a moment of first being aware of art as art?

Kauger: Art as art, I don't think so. I just always liked it. My grandmother died when my daddy was six months old, and my great-grandfather, who was a German from Russia, hired the Cheyenne women to be my daddy's nannies. We were always involved with the powwow, and I went to school in what was an Indian 2:00school, and was always aware that it wasn't that far removed from Little Bighorn and that there may have been warriors there still alive. Those sort of things, I was aware of, Chief Annanita Washee sitting on the bench in front of Payne's Store with his braids. As an adult, I regretted that people were not more aware to involve those wonderful historic figures in bringing them to school, letting us hear those stories.

Little Thunder: Right. So you mentioned the Acee Blue Eagle in your home. Do you have another memory of seeing a Native painting growing up?

Kauger: Some Archies, but it really wasn't emphasized that much in a place where it should've been.

Little Thunder: Do you have any memories of meeting Native artists when you were young?

Kauger: No, not really. It was just, it was there: the powwow and the dancing and the drums they were--. When I was a little girl, they were still dancing in the summertime at the powwow grounds at Colony, the Cheyenne-Arapaho. I would go down to dance, and my mother would come and retrieve me. I never learned to dance, and I still can't dance. When I was adopted in 1984 [by the Cheyenne-Arapaho tribe] after I was appointed to the court, I was really excited. My mother said she couldn't understand why I wanted to be adopted because I had two perfectly good parents, and I did. I had wonderful parents.

After the ceremony and the dance, I went over and said to her, "Well, Mother, what'd you think?" She said, "You still haven't learned to dance." It was all her fault. It was all her fault. (Laughter) I'm a terrible dancer. Barbara Poe 4:00at Red Earth was there at the beginning. She knew I couldn't dance, but she said, "Yvonne, it doesn't matter that your feet are in the right spot. We know that your heart is." (Laughter) Oh, I was going to tell you, I wasn't the first woman chief justice.

Little Thunder: Thank you for that correction.

Kauger: Alma Wilson was. I was appointed by Governor [George] Nigh two years after Justice Wilson. I was the first woman to be both vice chief justice and chief justice, but Alma was the first. Justice [Robert] Lavender waived his turn so Alma could be chief justice as the first woman chief justice. Governor Nigh appointed her in 1982, and he appointed me in 1984. When Hardy Summers was appointed, I believe in 1985, somewhere within a year after I was appointed, he said he lived in mortal fear that a woman would apply for the position he wanted 5:00because he had heard Governor Nigh say he really liked those women, and he thought he'd just keep right on appointing them. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a great story. Thank you. Were you interested in drawing or painting growing up?

Kauger: I am not an artist. In fact, when DG [Smalling] and I collaborated on the painting that I showed you of what's called The Oklahoma Nine, the members of our court in their districts, I told him that I wanted it to represent something about us, something personal, not just holding a scales but something personal to us. He said he didn't know anything about them, and I said, well, I did. He said, "Just show me," so I drew stick pictures for him. (Laughter) But I do sculpt. I do people. My staff calls them my Kaugirls. They're based on my 6:00grandmother Annie Belle Gordon Bottom, who was in Oklahoma. My great-grandfather came for the [Land] Run, and the other great-grandfather was here before statehood. Fred was at Colony before statehood.

Little Thunder: And you sculpt with--

Kauger: Clay.

Little Thunder: --clay, okay.

Kauger: In fact, there's one of my people out in the bookshelf out there.

Little Thunder: I'm going to check that out. Do you remember any significant art experiences in primary school or secondary school?

Kauger: I still remember the vase I drew in El Reno, which wasn't very good. We made a puppet, and my puppet was one of the ugliest puppets ever made out of papier-mâché. I really, I like my people. My people turn out okay. I like to think that maybe while I can't execute, I have a really good eye. I know what looks good, I know how to hang it, and I certainly know whether I like it or 7:00not. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: You played basketball with Jeri Redcorn.

Kauger: And we were good! We were good. You just ask Phillip [Cross]. He still tells people that I was really good. I was a longshot artist in the days that only counted two points. Now, there's just no telling what we could've done if they had scored my things three instead of two. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: I was wondering if she's the only high school classmate you had that went on to do something in Native art.

Kauger: No. The Cross family's very artistic. Phillip made that wonderful Geronimo bow over there on the wall, and he is highly recognized as a wonderful bow maker. I think that Carol does some things, and I know Jennifer does shawls, very beautiful shawls. Mary Evelyn, their cousin whose great-grandmother was my 8:00daddy's nanny, Howling Man Woman, made little people. Keepers of Life she called them. Mostly they were women with babies, lovely little, sort of primitive-looking pieces.

Little Thunder: Did you have a couple of those? Did your dad have a couple?

Kauger: Yes.

Little Thunder: You attended Southwestern Oklahoma State University and became a medical technician to pay your way through law school?

Kauger: That's right.

Little Thunder: Did you have any exposure--did you take an art class at Southwestern?

Kauger: An art appreciation class. I finished in three years. I was sort of in a hurry, (Laughs) but as I look back, I would've done it differently. In fact, one of the classes I did do differently and I'm very grateful for was Oklahoma History. I didn't intend to take Oklahoma History. I'd had Oklahoma History, which they don't teach now, which is a shame. I signed up for Professor 9:00Richardson's course on speech. I never wanted to be a public person, but I thought maybe I should take this speech course. It was a Tuesday/Thursday, and I went on Tuesday, and he recorded half the class. On Thursday, he played them back, but he didn't get to the Ks yet.

He was so brutal, and I hate the way I sound, anyway, that I dropped the class and signed up for Herschel Risinger's Oklahoma History course, which I've never regretted. It was incredible. I love history, and particularly, Oklahoma History. That's what we've tried to do in our book that we're publishing is to tell the history of the courts and the judiciary through the art in our building. It's not really a history book, and it's not really an art book, but it all ties together. We hope they will use it in schools to teach a painless 10:00and beautiful history, not that our history has been painless, but that the book is painless and beautiful.

Little Thunder: Wonderful way to get both of those knowledge bases across. When did you purchase your first piece of Native artwork?

Kauger: The first good piece, (I purchased, probably, a little piece earlier) the very best piece, still one of my very best pieces and the beginning of my real collection was the day David Boren was inaugurated as Governor of the State of Oklahoma. I was working for Justice [Ralph] Hodges as the first woman to be a staff lawyer for the Supreme Court, and Governor Boren had a Native American art exhibition in connection with this inauguration. George "Woogie" Watchetaker was there, and he had his piece that had won First Prize at the Heard Museum in 11:00Phoenix. It's of the Cheyenne and Sioux women after the Battle of Little Bighorn, with the blue coats on spears, and dancing. It's red and black, which are two of my favorite colors, anyway. It's a big piece, and I bought it. That was the first really good piece that I bought. Later I got to ride in parades with Woogie Watchetaker, and it was just incredible. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What was the first Native art show that you attended?

Kauger: I don't remember. I do not remember what was the first one. It wasn't that one, but that would be pretty close. One of the reasons for the genesis of Red Earth was that there was no place to go where Native artists were featured. 12:00You'll remember that in the early days, they were frozen out of the Santa Fe market. I always wanted to have an art gallery in Santa Fe, but I knew I could never afford it. On the way to Santa Fe one summer, early summer, it hit me that I could have my own gallery in Colony, Oklahoma, in the old post office that my great-grandfather had built that looks like Santa Fe. It's stucco, looks a little bit like a jail, maybe, but it was the post office. It's about eighteen by thirty, just one straight shot. I came back and told my daddy that I was going to open an art gallery on Labor Day weekend with a powwow, and I was going to have Archie Blackowl as the first featured artist. My mother said, "No way!"

Little Thunder: And this was what year?

Kauger: That would be 1981 or ʼ2. She said, "No way!" and I said to my daddy, 13:00"I haven't asked you for anything since I asked you not to go to the Army in World War II. I want it, and you're going to give it to me." He was getting ten dollars a month rent from Payne's Store for it. It was full of crickets. They were using it for feed. He helped me, and we opened Labor Day weekend. Archie Blackowl was the featured artist. All the invitations for twenty-five years were lithographs signed and numbered by the artists.

I wrote a letter to Archie because I told Daddy, "I've got to get Archie before he dies." Now, Archie would've been in his seventies then. Daddy called me and said, "You need to come out. There's someone that's coming tomorrow to visit with you." It was Archie. When I saw him, he said, "I got your letter, and it bothered me, and so I took it to my mother," who was ninety-six, "and asked her 14:00what she thought about it." (Laughs) He agreed to be the first featured artist.

Little Thunder: What a wonderful way to advertise a show with those lithograph invitations.

Kauger: They came from all--someone came the first year, even, from Egypt to Colony, Oklahoma. My mother said, "Johnny, it's all over. They're here from Egypt." (Laughs) He had said, "I'll do it, but nobody will come." Well, they really did.

Little Thunder: At that point you were practicing, you were still working as...

Kauger: I was working for Justice Hodges.

Little Thunder: Okay. So you had some connections. You were starting to get to know some people to let them know about your gallery, as well.

Kauger: Well, actually I was--I told you before, I never wanted to speak. I think it's really ironic that I got a speaking engagement call just moments ago. I realized that in order to do this, I had to speak for my artists because they 15:00were so shy and it was so difficult for them to get a market. That little bitty gallery in Colony and the Cheyenne-Arapaho powwow is the genesis for Red Earth. It's just on a bigger scale.

Little Thunder: I'm going to go back just a moment or two in time. Did you start out consciously thinking after you bought Archie's piece, thinking of yourself as a collector--or Woogie's, I guess, I'm sorry--thinking of yourself as a collector, or did that just kind of evolve?

Kauger: I would say it evolved.

Little Thunder: Did you notice any kind of pattern to your collecting, in terms of theme or style?

Kauger: No, I like it all. The pattern to my collecting after I opened the gallery was I tried to make sure that everyone sold something, and so I would 16:00buy things to make sure that if the public didn't buy it that there would be some sales. Of course, I had the best artists. The best artists are here. There's no question about it. There were things I couldn't afford. I can remember a Mirac Creepingbear piece. I had some nice Miracs, but the one I really wanted, it was four hundred dollars, and I didn't have four hundred dollars. That was the gallery discount. I didn't have four hundred dollars to buy it. It's down at the Fred Jones [Jr. Museum of Art] now. Mr. [Richard] Fleischaker bought it. And I never could afford Merlin. He was always just--but my son-in-law finally bought me a Merlin Little Thunder. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you develop friendships with other collectors or--

Kauger: Yes.

Little Thunder: I wondered if that impacted your collecting.

Kauger: No. The artists impacted it much more than the collectors did.

Little Thunder: What is the first Native art event aside from, you know, working your own gallery that you got involved in as a volunteer?

Kauger: Well, it wasn't--I worked at the first arts festival [Festival of the Arts] in Oklahoma City.

Little Thunder: Spring arts festival?

Kauger: Yes, which wasn't a Native event, but there were a couple. I think Bert [Seabourn] was probably there. It didn't have anything to do with Native art, but I was very active in Lyric Theatre. I ran the concession stand there for sixteen years while they were at OCU [Oklahoma City University] and was president on the board. I worked a lot in civic organizations before I was named to the court. We can't raise money, so that sort of ended my volunteer work.

Little Thunder: You mentioned, and I'd like to pick this up again, that the Oklahoma artists were frozen out of Santa Fe, and you had talked to me about the fact that it was initially focused just on Southwest artists. At some point they let a small percentage of out-of-staters in.

Kauger: They did, and then they won. Then they were featured, (Laughter) and then they were president of the board. Les Berryhill grew up to be president of the board.

Little Thunder: So as you were thinking about the possibility of doing a Native arts festival in Oklahoma City, who else were you talking to?

Kauger: Well, I talked to Phil Lujan was one of the first people I talked to. We were at a meeting at OCU with Wilma Mankiller, and I mentioned it to Phil that I 19:00sort of had this in the back of my mind. Then I had lunch with Ken Bonds, that I'd known from the Lyric board, and told him the National Cowboy Finals had left. I said, "There's a way to do this. This is what ought to happen." He became very excited; he's Cherokee. He became excited, and we talked to Ed Cook down at the chamber and Kathleen Marks. Ed Cook was very excited about it, at the Oklahoma City Chamber of Commerce. They gave us some help. We talked to other people, and it just sort of grew. Ken definitely was very active.

Little Thunder: So you're having these conversations around 1970--

Kauger: When would that be? It'll be twenty-eight--I think Red Earth is twenty-eight years, where the Sovereignty Symposium is twenty-seven, so '86, maybe?

Little Thunder: Okay.

Kauger: Time goes so fast. I'm not very good at the dates.

Little Thunder: The chamber had a positive response?

Kauger: Yes, then we talked to Kelly Haney and Allie Reynolds. Allie was wonderful. Kelly, at the time, was chair of the Appropriations Committee in the Senate. Governor [Henry] Bellmon was very helpful, and Rodger Randle, who was president pro tem of the Senate, and Leroy Bridges. Without Governor Bellmon there wouldn't have been any prize money because he authorized, he said he, "thought they could find it, couldn't they, Rodger and Kelly?"

Little Thunder: That's wonderful, for the first show. Who went about and filed the incorporation papers or did some of the--

Kauger: I'm not so certain that Allison didn't, but I'm not sure.

Little Thunder: Allison?

Kauger: Allison Cave. She was my staff lawyer at the time.

Little Thunder: How did you decide on a location?

Kauger: Oh, I know. I think maybe it was Jack Blankenship. Maybe Jack did it. You know, after I got them together, I just sort of disappeared.

Little Thunder: So they sort of formed--

Kauger: There had been a group out at the Kirkpatrick [Center], where they met out there. There'd been this group that had sort of tried to do this. Kelly had been in it; Lou Kerr was early in it; several people that became very active when it became Red Earth. They had never put on the show or the dance, so they sort of merged after a year or so into Red Earth.

Little Thunder: What were your expectations? You got the working committee together. They started working.

Kauger: Well, I expected it'd be bigger than it is now. I really thought it would be. I mean, I'm really glad that it's the way it is, but I've been 22:00disappointed it hasn't had as big a crowd as I think it ought to have. At the time there was a white buffalo in Colony, and I could kind of envision Carol Pigg's white buffalo running through gray smoke into the arena. That's one thing that never got done. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How about the first year of the Festival?

Kauger: Oh, the first year was wonderful because we didn't know if anyone would come. Phil Lujan and I met on Main and Broadway before the first parade. They came--pickups, blankets. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't fancy, but it was there, dancers in buckskin and feathers. We looked at each other and looked down at our arms, and we both had goose bumps. It was just a goose bump moment. Then dancing with Allie in the grand entry was fantastic. I said to him, "Look at this, Allie. Isn't this great? Isn't this great?" He said, "My knees are killing me." 23:00(Laughter) But Allie stood there on that Sunday evening and handed out the checks to all the winners. We wanted to make sure that--and Ken Bonds. They kept the bank open so they could cash them.

Little Thunder: You mentioned in one article that you deliberately wanted to time it around the Indian law symposium because you knew that would--

Kauger: Well, we did that--the next year we did the Sovereignty Symposium. We did it because it--we have a hundred faculty. Every person on the panel could be the keynoter for the Sovereignty Symposium. This year we will have the Baroness of Winterbourne, a member of the House of Lords, who's coming back for her second appearance, Emma Nicholson, and Beverley McLachlin, the Chief Justice of 24:00Canada. The Warrior Woman by Dr. Dick West, there, will be the poster because we have two warrior women. That's my logo: Cheyenne Warrior Woman. The enticement is Red Earth for this faculty to come from literally all over the world.

Little Thunder: Yeah, that was a very good move, I think. Were you still involved with Red Earth when the 1990 Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed? I wondered how that was handled.

Kauger: I was there. I was having an art show, and one of the artists that--because mine was not confined. You didn't have to be a card-carrying--. Patrick Riley, who's done this wonderful, wonderful thirty-foot sculpture for 25:00our building, participates in the show, in fact, ran it the year after I gave the building to Southwestern. Because of that act, we were featuring Jeanne Rorex, and she didn't have her card. In order to comply with the law (I was in Quebec City, Canada) Kyle [Shifflett] steamed open all the invitations before they went out and put a disclaimer in. So yes, I was around. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What did you learn from--we'll kind of jump back to your gallery experience which was such a great way, I'm sure, to get to know the artists and know the behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on. What else did you learn from 26:00opening that gallery?

Kauger: That you probably can't make any money, and I never thought I would in the art business. That for three days a year, I had a gallery that would match any gallery anywhere in the United States, in the world, for Native American art. We had the very best artists: Ben Harjo, Dr. Dick West, Archie Blackowl, Merlin Little Thunder. That was the reward, was getting to meet them, have friends.

Little Thunder: It was a fun show to do, with Colony powwow. I remember that. When did you start overseeing the collection of art for the judicial center?

Kauger: Well, this building took me thirty years, three bond issues, and 250 dozen cookies. I was named--

Little Thunder: Explain about the cookies. (Laughs)

Kauger: Oh, I will explain about the cookies. When I went to Colony High School, 27:00they substituted home economics for my science courses. I was a med tech before I was a lawyer, so I majored in biology with a minor in chemistry. At the time, it made it very hard in the chemistry particularly, not to have had any background whatsoever. I really, at the time, actually, I wanted to do cattle judging instead of home economics, but they kicked me out of that. I am really good at judging cattle, at least. (Laughs) So I'm in home economics, and I really resented it, but I learned to make oatmeal crispy cookies in Helen Brown's home economics class. Among other things, she was a wonderful teacher. I still have some great recipes. When I started going to the Appropriations Committee meetings, I would bake Helen Brown's oatmeal crispy cookies, and they came to expect them. I told my daughter that this building is built not out of 28:00mortar, but out of cookie dough, and she didn't believe me.

M. J. Van Deventer got married a year ago November, at All Souls [Episcopal] Church, and I went to the wedding. She's originally from Muskogee. Jonna went with me. The former longtime chair of the Appropriations Committee of the House, Bill Settle, was there. He saw me, and he ran across the room. Instead of the first thing out of his mouth being, "Yvonne, it's so good to see you," he said in front of Jonna, which just made it perfect, "Are you still making those cookies?" (Laughs) It turned out that it was a better thing that I have that cookie recipe than I had preparation for chemistry. (Laughter) I have written in our book that we're doing of the art in the building, Robert Henry has written the foreword, and Dr. Bob Blackburn's written the afterword, and I have written 29:00the last word, and the last thing in the book is the cookie recipe with the cookies framed like a painting because they were instrumental in this building. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. Can you take us through a little bit of the process by which you acquired the art? I know that some of--

Kauger: Yes. I was named the chair of the Building Committee. I supervised the building, which was really great fun and a lot of work. I had good help with Kyle, my staff lawyer, who would rather be a decorator, probably, than a lawyer. We had a great time doing it, along with David Dixon and Ronnie Nunn, and people that helped us on different facets of it. Paul Haley, the capitol architect, was terrific. This took quite a long time. Thanks to Art in Public Places, 1½ percent of the amount of the building shall be spent on public art. If you'll 30:00see different renderings (some I'd like, some not so much) down Lincoln Boulevard, they have spent their money on, usually, maybe, one giant piece or two.

We have the Veterans Memorial right out my window, and it was in horrible disrepair. The sidewalks were cracked; the vegetation was overgrown. The names of the veterans who gave their lives for this country to defend our Constitution, which is what we do every day, it seemed most appropriate that we spend some of that Art in Public Places on restoration of the memorial because they would never appropriate the money for it. We did a third of the money for Art in Public Places went to restore Jay O'Melia's Veterans Memorial. Even going 31:00back as far as when Blake Wade was director of the [Oklahoma] History Center, I knew they had some nice art. He had let me look at it. I was particularly looking for a [Stephen] Mopope that had been in Hardy Summer's office when he was chief justice. I called Jeff Briley over at the History Center and said, "I'm looking for a Mopope." I described it. Robert Henry gave me the prototype for it, the sketches, in one of the offices back there.

Well, he couldn't find it. He said, "I have Mopopes. You need to come and see the Mopopes I have." When I did, those four-feet-by-ten-feet murals that used to be at Southwestern in the library where I went to college were there, and I knew exactly where they went. It turns out life is a circle. Patrick Riley had been 32:00head of the Art Department at Southwestern, and he discovered them. They cut them down. They were in the library. They cut them down, (you can still see the little cuts on them where the woodwork was) rolled them up, and put them in the attic, and were ready to throw them away, these priceless things. It took probably five or six sessions for Kyle and I to go over with Jeff Briley and go through every piece of art they have, the people's art in the History Center that they would never see. No one would ever see it. It's in the basement.

The Herbert Adams sculptures of Wiley Post and Will Rogers, which were commissioned by Frank Phillips in 1934 after they died in the airplane crash, cost $25,000. Now Herbert Adams' pieces are in the rotunda of the capitol. In today's dollars that would be $406,000 that he paid for these two pieces. They were sitting on the floor in the basement because they have no place to show the art. I call us History Center South because we're the gallery. If you'll look in 33:00the book, it will say that the contract says it's on a ten-year loan with the opportunity to extend, but I'm not giving it back. The book says it's on permanent loan. (Laughs) I don't have any place to keep it, so that's going to be it. They were very generous to let us do--and it's good for everyone because some of the pieces required restoration. They didn't have the money to do it, and they would never be restored or seen. This is the people's building, and it's open to the public. There are places you have to get someone to let you into, but the general major part of it, anyone can come anytime and see the art. We're very proud to showcase it.

Little Thunder: What are you hoping that--as the public finds out about it, I'm 34:00sure many more people will be coming through. What are you hoping that they'll take away from being able to see this art?

Kauger: Amber Sharples runs the Oklahoma Arts Council now, and she brought a regional group of art directors from seven states to see it. They could not believe it. They were just so overwhelmed that Oklahoma had done this. When people come to see the building, I think that's what they have been taking away. They can't believe that we did it, and we did it with pretty much what we had. Sixty-five percent of the art was from the collection that would never be shown. Then the artists have been very generous to donate pieces. Jim Bruce donated The Eagle in memory of Justice [Marian] Opala, one of our colleagues. Brent Learned came to the artist party at the Sovereignty Symposium the first year we were 35:00open. I had bought a buffalo from him for the collection from Red Earth. He called me and said, "Yvonne, I saw my buffalo." I said, "Yes, and it's wonderful." He said, "Yes, but it's very lonely. My buffalo is very lonely. I would like to donate two pieces to go on each side of my buffalo so it will not be lonely." So these wonderful Fancy Dancers are on each side of his buffalo, and it is not lonely anymore. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's a great story. What other opportunities do you to seek to provide for the artists here?

Kauger: Well, I think it's a good opportunity to have their art here. Ryan Cunningham, who's not a Native American artist--and it's not confined to Native American art. It's probably about half and half when you analyze it. He's a 36:00young lawyer and donated his piece, just to have it here. I think that's pretty wonderful. I think the artists are--they were so excited; I did a New Year's Eve party, my seventh annual New Year's Eve party. This time we previewed the book. Many of the artists were there, and they were excited to see themselves in the book. It's pretty cool to be in the book. I guess one of the regrets I have is that Dr. Dick West and Archie Blackowl aren't in the book because the History Center didn't have pieces, and I'm not ready to give mine away yet. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Not donating it for your book. (Laughs)

Kauger: So part of it is who was already in the collection, and then we were able to find some others.

Little Thunder: You've received the Governor's Arts Award twice. Do they give 37:00that award twice to the same person very often?

Kauger: I don't know, but I surely am glad to get it. (Laughs) The last award was to our committee, the thirteen members on the art committee. It's required by statute sort of. We had wonderful members on our committee. The then Chief Justice Steven W. Taylor nominated us for the Governor's Arts Award for the art in the building. He said at the time if we did not win it, they should abolish it, (Laughter) so I was very glad we won. Robert Henry and Bob Blackburn were on the committee. That's the first time Robert Henry's won an arts award, and he was very proud to get the Governor's Arts Award. When his cousin was the Governor, he didn't get it, although his wife did.

Little Thunder: And then you were nominated by yourself, (is that right) too?

Kauger: No, no, I've never nominated myself.

Little Thunder: No, I mean you've received an award--

Kauger: Oh, oh, yes I received it myself--

Little Thunder: --yourself.

Kauger: --for the work with Red Earth and the Colony gallery, and the promotion of art, yes. I think Lou Kerr nominated me for that.

Little Thunder: What changes have you observed in the Native art landscape since Red Earth opened? It's a lot of time to cover, I know, but--

Kauger: Well, one thing that's happened is, of course, they've been accepted and acknowledged in Santa Fe. I think much more, it's opened up some eyes. I hate to see galleries closing. I'm really glad, you know--people have asked me if the building is my legacy, and it is not. My daughter and my two grandsons are my 39:00legacy. My daughter was president of Red Earth and was highly instrumental in getting them out of debt and moving them downtown to where they have a gallery open. People come and buy stuff, and I'm really glad to see that. I think that is good for artists and for Oklahoma City. Then my grandson [Jay] is the youngest member of the Board of Red Earth, so I'm glad to see that. Winston [Scambler], who has to do everything his big brother's doing, just can't wait until he thinks he's old enough to do that. That's one thing. I hope it educates--.

When you ask me what is my first piece of art, well, my grandchildren's first piece of art is very clear. I went to England where Jay [Scambler] was born and took him a Néske'e, a Cheyenne sculpture of a grandmother and a grandchild. That was his first piece of art. I buy them art on their birthday and Christmas 40:00every year, and they have nice collections. As Winston says, "You have to watch your art, or Mommy will take it," (Laughs) so I write on the back that this is for them. They're very good. They know. Jay's a sophomore at OU [University of Oklahoma] now.

He was in the president's leadership class and went to President [David] Boren's house and was able to discuss with President Boren very knowledgably about all the Native American artists, and he knows them personally. When he was six, we were featuring Bert Seabourn. He's this little bitty guy, and the paintings are around the walls. He just walks through, and then he says, "I'll take that one right there. I'll get that one." I look at it, and it's not a very big piece. It has a shaman with a pouch, and on the pouch is Spider-Man. It's the Spider-Man 41:00shaman. (Laughter) They all have very discerning eyes. They expect their art, and they want it.

Little Thunder: Thanks for sharing that. What kinds of work do you think need to be done in Oklahoma, still, for Native artists to thrive?

Kauger: A real market, they need a real market. I was hopeful, even, and I talked to Jim Brewer when he was still alive early on. I can't remember who--I think maybe Louise Painter went with me. Two or three went of us went to talk to him about the possibility of having a gallery in the old train station, but the train station wasn't open that much. Maybe with this new--. There needs to be something that's there, that's open, that's available, that's centrally located. I would just like to see more. The year that we opened Red Earth, the poster 42:00from the Oklahoma, I think it was the Oklahoma Chamber, the emphasis was on Oklahoma lakes and the symphony. Okay. We have more miles of manmade shoreline than any state, but I don't think when people think of us, they think of lakes particularly. Although the symphony's very good, it's not New York City. We do have some things that we're the very best at, and I'd like to see us showcase that. Our art is one of them, so I would like to see a more proactive stance by those in charge. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, we're finishing out our conversation here pretty soon, but I'd like to switch back to your personal collecting again for a moment. When you're drawn to something, how important is cultural content?

Kauger: Probably not at all. (Laughs) You know, I see things I like and--. Back to Jay, this last summer he decided that three of his Beta brothers would rent a house in Norman, and they did. It's a nice house. You know, it's a college house, but it has real potential. He developed a passion for going to estate sales with me, and we furnished his house in Norman by going to estate sales. We found some really nice art at estate sales, and he has a great collection. His 44:00good stuff's at home, but he has some really nice things that we found at estate sales. His house is phenomenal because he says he's going to live there three years, and he wants to live in a home. I've been drawn to things at estate sales that I've just had to have.

Little Thunder: Do you collect works by newer or younger artists and their--

Kauger: Yes, I do. This Levi guy, this Cheyenne from--

Little Thunder: George Levi?

Kauger: Yes. His things I bought, and what I've been able to do--I got Norma Howard the first year she showed at Red Earth, and I paid seventy five bucks for a pretty nice piece that is now four thousand dollars. I do collect new ones. I like to do that. I like to get them early, Crystal Hanna, Jane Osti. I went to 45:00Tahlequah--do you know Jane Osti? I went to Tahlequah to speak, and Roger Webb was still [Northeastern State University] president. There was this incredible sculpture that Jane had done, and I said to her, "Are you going to Red Earth?" She said, "No." I said, "Oh, you ought to go." This is early on, said, "You really ought to go." She said, "I don't have the entry fee. I can't go." So when I'm doing my speech, I say, "Roger, you have an incredible artist here, and I'll bet you can find the money to pay her entry fee to Red Earth, can't you?" He said, "Yes, I can." She won Second the very first year. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's wonderful.

Kauger: Those are things that are really fun, to spot them early. You do know Jeri [Redcorn] has her piece in the President's Oval Office. Did you know that?

Little Thunder: My grandson has that picture. (Laughs)

Kauger: Yes, I just think that's pretty phenomenal.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. How do your paintings live in your home? I 46:00mean, if you get something, do you know right away where you'll hang it, or do you sort of let it sit against the wall while you think about it?

Kauger: Oh, they never sit. I've gotten to the point that I can't get anything very big. People have said, "Well, you ought to just store some." No, no, I don't want--they're like children. I don't want anything stored. I want to see everything I have, and I built upstairs as a gallery. The whole wall is a gallery wall. I don't want every wall in my house to be a gallery wall. I don't do well--I don't like clutter. I have two gallery walls, and I'm very comfortable with those.

Little Thunder: What advice would you give to another Native art collector who is just starting to acquire Native art?

Kauger: Don't buy prints. (Laughs) I don't care. Get the smallest original. 47:00Don't buy prints. You get all that money invested in framing, and you still have a print. Maybe that's snobbish, but that's just the way I feel about it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: This may be a little bit, just sort of adding to what you said, some wonderful things, but why is it important to collect Native art?

Kauger: It's part of who I am. It's what I'm comfortable living with. You know, we could go off to another--say it's good for the economy, it's good for business, it's good to promote those jobs and culture. Look at our history and what we can do for our children. We need to remind them that it wasn't always this way.

Little Thunder: Well, is there anything you'd like to add, or we've left out, before we look at a couple of your pieces? I think we'll look at a few pieces in the office here.

Kauger: Okay. Well, I think you've been pretty exhaustive.

Little Thunder: We did have an additional comment here.

Kauger: Yes, we did have one. I left out the punchline on my grandchildren's art collection. It's that I've always told them--there's seven years between them. 48:00When Jay was little, he would want little plastic toys and I would tell him, "No, I'm not buying you those. I am not your toy grandmother. I am your art grandmother. You will love your art years from now, and those toys will be in the garbage." When he applied to college, he was required to write an essay on something he was passionate about, and he wrote about me. He said that I had always said that he was mine, (and he is) and that I was not his toy grandmother, and that he loves his Native American art that graces his room at home, and that he has developed a passion for it, and I was right. I think that paid off.

Little Thunder: Certainly did. Okay, how about this painting?

Kauger: That's an Archie Blackowl of the Cheyenne family, and I particularly like it at Christmas because it looks like the Holy Family.

Little Thunder: And that Archie Blackowl is one of your personal pieces that's all yours. How about this bowl?

Kauger: This is by William Charles Sellers who was a trial lawyer in Sapulpa, Oklahoma. They also called him Wild Bill because, as he said, he wasn't tame. He was my daughter's godfather. He played five musical instruments, he painted, and he took up woodworking not long before he died. He made this piece for me when I was chief [justice].

Little Thunder: Just beautiful.

Kauger: He was Cherokee. His mother was Maud Muskrat.

Little Thunder: All right, we're looking at a painting and a headdress here.

Kauger: The painting is by Mike Larsen, and my family gave it to me the day I was sworn in as chief justice. Mike was there to unveil it. It was quite an 50:00exciting day. The headdress is by Brent Learned, who doesn't usually do headdresses.

Little Thunder: I was going to say I did not know he did. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for your time today.

Kauger: You're welcome, Julie. Thanks for coming.

------- End of interview -------