Oral history interview with Carol Pate

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, October 29, 2013. I'm interviewing Choctaw bead artist Carol Pate for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at Tribes 131, a gallery in Norman that handles Carol's work. Carol, you started beading seriously around 1996. Since then, you've garnered a number of awards at Gallup Ceremonial, Red Earth Festival, Santa Fe Indian Market, a lot of times for beaded cultural items that you had never tried before. I suspect there are lots of awards yet to come. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Pate: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Pate: I was born in Talihina, Oklahoma, and I grew up in Oklahoma City.

Little Thunder: I think I read that when you were really young, you were raised by your grandmother.

Pate: Yes, until I think I was like four or five. I think it was five.

Little Thunder: What are your memories of her?

Pate: I remember her cooking a lot. Not really much of anything else.

Little Thunder: Not necessarily any handiwork or sewing or anything.

Pate: No.

Little Thunder: So how did you end up in Oklahoma City?

Pate: I lived in a Baptist children's home, Goodland, in Talihina. A family, I guess he used to work bringing--what do you call it? He drove a truck, and it brought the food products and stuff to the home. At the time, I was the youngest one. There was, like, three of us that were pretty young. He would bring us up here to this church. We could go up here to church and stay with some of the people that went to the church. We would do that periodically, and I ended up 2:00staying with a family that decided to adopt me. I've been here since then.

Little Thunder: And you had lost your grandma, I guess.

Pate: Right. She passed--I think I was five when she passed away.

Little Thunder: So what is your first memory of seeing Native art?

Pate: The family that adopted me had taken me to an art show that had Native American stuff. It was probably Red Earth because I remember it was downtown. It may have been the--.

Little Thunder: You were how old?

Pate: About nine.

Little Thunder: What were your thoughts or impressions?

Pate: I didn't think any different of the people. I just really liked the artwork. I loved artwork. I wasn't good in art, but--. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: We're going to talk about that. What is your first memory of 3:00doing art?

Pate: I think I was about ten, and they had a show at school that I had made some beadwork, the hair ties. I made hair ties and won First Place on those. That was the first time I'd ever done anything like that.

Little Thunder: Oh my goodness, so you actually had learned to bead by that age a little bit. How did you learn?

Pate: It was on my own. I loved to do sewing and little crafts and stuff here and there.

Little Thunder: The family that adopted you, nobody did beadwork there, but you had just requested materials, or how did that--

Pate: I think I remember going to a class at Sunday school, so I think I may have learned it in church.

Little Thunder: And then they kept you supplied with your materials.

Pate: Yeah.

Little Thunder: That's really neat. What other experiences did you have in elementary school with art or beading?

Pate: I don't remember beading a whole lot.

Little Thunder: I guess that was middle school.

Pate: I think I remember more of me not being good in art at school. (Laughs) I had the hardest time in art.

Little Thunder: What was that due to, do you think?

Pate: Probably not paying attention. I don't know. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you remember any art experiences from, like, middle school or high school?

Pate: No, I don't think I did much art in that time. I would do, like, 5:00needlepoint stuff. I did stuff like that, but that's about all.

Little Thunder: Did your adoptive mom do some needlepoint?

Pate: No, her mother did.

Little Thunder: Her mother did. You got some encouragement from that.

Pate: Right.

Little Thunder: What did you do after high school?

Pate: After high school, I got married and had kids. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How did you meet your husband, Rick?

Pate: Actually, I was friends with Leslie, the owner of the gallery. It's her brother.

Little Thunder: How did you two meet?

Pate: We met in middle school, so we've known each other a long time. That's how I met them.

Little Thunder: What triggered your desire to start beading more seriously?

Pate: I think being pregnant and not having much to do helped a lot. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So it was your first daughter. You had some time on your hands.

Pate: Right. I didn't do much. I tried several different things toward art. I did some painting, a little bit, not much.

Little Thunder: On your own.

Pate: Right, and didn't figure I could do that. (Laughs) That's when Hannah [Pate] worked for Doris Littrell. We would go up there to the shows, and there were several dolls she had that I loved that were beaded. I guess that's what started that.

Little Thunder: I was thinking that having that regular exposure first to Doris' gallery--

Pate: Right.

Little Thunder: When did you get with Patricia? Patricia Mousetail Russell, I guess, first showed you peyote stitch.

Pate: Delores Pratt, she's the one that showed me. We'd gone to Red Earth a few 7:00times, and she worked, also, with Doris Littrell. We'd gone to Red Earth with her a few times. We were talking about beading, and she was the one who told me that I should start beading, that if I liked needlepoint, it would be something like that. Not too long after that is when Patricia had (what do you call it, at the Jacobson House) her workshop. That's when I went over there and learned the peyote stitch.

Little Thunder: So this was a workshop that Patricia was giving. Did your mother-in-law have her gallery already? Was it at the gallery?

Pate: She had her gallery already, but it was at the Jacobson House that I went to. The way we got those together is we belonged to the AICS at that time, and she was one of the members. We would periodically go over there and do some of 8:00the workshops that they had.

Little Thunder: Right. And AICS stands for--

Pate: American Indian Cultural Society.

Little Thunder: Right. So what did you guys work on during the workshop?

Pate: She taught us how to do bolo ties, the ends of the bolo ties. You do the peyote stitch, which is anything round. That's what I learned from her.

Little Thunder: Opens up a lot of possibilities. Had you been doing any beaded items for the gallery on Main Street yet?

Pate: Yes.

Little Thunder: You had. What kinds of things had you done?

Pate: Probably small. I did a lot of little turtle fetishes like you were talking about. I did a lot of those and some moccasins. Just small things like that.

Little Thunder: I remember those beaded little fetishes and how miniature they 9:00were. Do you like miniature work, and what do you like about it?

Pate: It's something you can start and finish within a few hours, (Laughs) unlike a dress or something like that.

Little Thunder: Right, right. (Laughter) So when you're pregnant, that's a good--

Pate: Right. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: They're really mesmerizing, those little fetishes. What was the first sort of big item that you made after Patricia's workshop?

Pate: Again, Delores had taken me to Red Earth. We were going through, and there was this couple that had these little boxes that were all beaded. I asked to see one, and they wouldn't let me hold it or look at it. (Laughs) So when we were 10:00leaving, I thought, "Well, I can probably do that since Patricia showed me how to do the peyote stitch." I went home, and I did two of them. Delores sent them to (where did she send them) Gallup. I won First Place on one and Second Place on the other one.

Little Thunder: She entered them for you? Wow.

Pate: That's where I kind of--

Little Thunder: So glad you mentioned that because that's sort of how it works, isn't it? When beaders go around and admire each other's work, somebody has a good idea, you can adapt it and make it your own. (Laughter) Did you have any other beading mentors?

Pate: Let's see. I love Teri Greeves' stuff. I met her when we did the first 11:00Cherokee Market. That was the first time I met her.

Little Thunder: Which was how many years ago, maybe just about ten or five?

Pate: It wasn't that long ago. Five or six years ago. I enjoyed doing some stuff, talking to her, and listening to her stories.

Little Thunder: You had seen her work in magazines, or--

Pate: Yeah, I liked her work.

Little Thunder: Did you check out books on beading techniques, too, in addition to your workshop?

Pate: No, I got a few designs from a couple of books that were at (what was the name of that catalog) Crazy Crow catalog? They had some books you could order, but they were not really books. They were like pamphlet type things. That's 12:00basically what I looked through.

Little Thunder: So were you using, primarily starting out, Plains designs?

Pate: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you start off beading on buckskin pretty quickly, or leather?

Pate: More buckskin than anything.

Little Thunder: What was the first item that you sold that was a pretty good price?

Pate: Let's see. I think it was one of my turtle fetishes, and it was a pretty big one. That was the first one. I sold it to Ed Pate. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Your father-in-law, (Laughter) but that counts! How did you know how to price your beadwork? Did you have a sense of how to price things from the start?

Pate: Not really. Hannah helped me with a lot of it.

Little Thunder: What was the first item you sold to another store or gallery?

Pate: I sold a lot of baby moccasins to the galleries. That's always been a good seller for me.

Little Thunder: Right, and you continue to do those.

Pate: Yes, yes, today.

Little Thunder: How important were booth shows for you when you started out?

Pate: They weren't that important to me because I always had the gallery to show. I really didn't start that until later.

Little Thunder: What was one of the first booth shows that you did?

Pate: Would have been Red Earth, probably.

Little Thunder: What were your expectations when you did it, and what was the 14:00reality like? (Laughter)

Pate: I have no idea. They were a lot of fun, meeting a lot of people. For some reason, I would sit there and work through. I'd be working while--because it wasn't fast enough paced for me to just sit there. (Laughs) I would get bored, so I would be working most of the time during the shows.

Little Thunder: And you do hear feedback from people on your work?

Pate: Yes. I hear a lot. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you have a lot of inventory at that show?

Pate: My first one? No. I didn't have a whole lot, and you kind of learn that you have to have a whole lot.

Little Thunder: It's a hard call.

Pate: Right, because you never know.

Little Thunder: Do you try to sort of have a range? On the price scale, do you try to have a range of things?

Pate: Yes, I do. I try and use new. I don't like to take the same that I've had before that hasn't sold.

Little Thunder: You won't take it to another show.

Pate: Right. I try and do new stuff.

Little Thunder: Now, you have two daughters. Did they powwow dance? I can't remember.

Pate: No, neither one would.

Little Thunder: You didn't have to do beadwork for them.

Pate: No, they were too shy, I guess.

Little Thunder: Were you interested in doing pictorial work at all?

Pate: No, I'm on, like, more the design type stuff.

Little Thunder: How about Southeastern designs? Have you explored them very much?

Pate: My friend Roberta Wallace, who did a lot of pots that way, she showed me a lot of different things Southeastern, but I've never tried to really bead anything like that. Maybe someday.

Little Thunder: You didn't take a pottery class with her, did you?

Pate: Just one on one because I'd go to her house and she'd show me. It wasn't really a class type. We'd do some things, and then she'd break them. (Laughter) I guess that was her way of teaching.

Little Thunder: She'd break your pieces, you're saying?

Pate: Well, we'd either break them when they fired, or we'd just end up breaking 17:00them because they weren't worth using. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I see.

Pate: Hers were beautiful. Mine were very interesting.

Little Thunder: That's a good story. Thanks for that. How was your earliest beadwork different from what you do now?

Pate: Probably more contemporary stuff now. I don't do--I'd rather do traditional, but I like doing contemporary because you can use all different colors, and there's more of a spectrum of what you can do on it.

Little Thunder: Artistic freedom. Sometimes the hardest part of doing art is the business part. What was the best piece of business advice you got starting out?

Pate: No one really ever gave me any advice until I went to Indian Market. When I went to Indian market, I shared with a jeweler. He told me at that time, "If you really want to make money, the more inventory you have, the better you will sell." He was probably right. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: So that was your first year of going to market. The whole family went?

Pate: Let's see. No. Me, Leslie, and my mother and step-father went.

Little Thunder: How many pieces did you have?

Pate: I probably had twenty.

Little Thunder: But still not enough.

Pate: No, still not enough.

Little Thunder: Did you sell everything?

Pate: Not the first year. The second year, I sold everything, and I had more inventory.

Little Thunder: What role does your husband play in your business?

Pate: He tells a lot of people about it.

Little Thunder: Does he do any photography of your work?

Pate: Yeah, he does all of it. He's done, I think, every bit I've done.

Little Thunder: Do you market your own work online as well as online through the gallery?

Pate: Right now I just go through the gallery online. It's too hard for me to get on there and do it and her do it at the same time because I can't have that much inventory at one time.

Little Thunder: Did you apply to Indian Market a couple of times before you got accepted, or did you get accepted after your first application?

Pate: I got accepted my first application.

Little Thunder: That's unusual.

Pate: That's what I was told. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What were your impressions of the larger Market when you went the first time?

Pate: Oh, I liked it a lot. I liked it a lot. It's a lot more fast-paced. It's been my best show ever since I started beading, has been the Santa Fe Market.

Little Thunder: So how long do you prepare for it?

Pate: All year. All year.

Little Thunder: Do you sort of tell yourself if it's a really strong piece, do you sort of try to save those best pieces for market?

Pate: Yeah, usually. Usually I know what I'm going to do by the end of this year 21:00for next year, so I'll go ahead and start.

Little Thunder: The same year, I think, you entered for the first time, you won Third Place on a buckskin dress?

Pate: A dress, yes.

Little Thunder: What inspired you to tackle a buckskin dress? (Laughter)

Pate: Back to the dolls, I liked the dresses. I liked the beadwork on the dresses, especially the white buckskin where you can see all the colors and everything. There was just something I wanted to do that was a little bit different than what I'd seen, so that's when I did the butterfly dress.

Little Thunder: It was a little girl's dress, wasn't it?

Pate: Yes.

Little Thunder: It also had some quill work, didn't it?

Pate: No. It didn't have any quill work.

Little Thunder: What were some of the challenges of doing it?

Pate: I wanted to do it so as the little girl grew up, if she wanted to make her dress bigger, then she could take the little butterflies and everything off and put it on a bigger one. I did it so she could take them all off and put them on a bigger dress. I know she didn't because the lady that bought it--she takes pictures of little kids in the dresses and paints them. I know who it went to, and she never did.

Little Thunder: What a great idea. That was part of the reason that you won, probably.

Pate: I hope so.

Little Thunder: I think that's really a great idea. You also have done a miniature cradleboard. What got you interested in cradleboards?

Pate: All the big ones. I wanted to do a big one. I haven't tackled that yet, but I will. (Laughs) I wanted to make sure I could do a small one, so I did a 23:00small one. I did it with size fifteen beads. Those are little bitty.

Little Thunder: Pretty time consuming?

Pate: Yeah, but it turned out good.

Little Thunder: Have you ever tried, like--you've done beaded purses. When did you start moving into those?

Pate: That was probably after the fetishes, not too long after I started doing purses. Actually, I went fetishes, dolls, and then purses. The dolls went back to the dolls that I saw at Doris'.

Little Thunder: Do you still make dolls? I didn't realize that.

Pate: Yes, I do, and they're the ones that don't have the face.

Little Thunder: Have you ever tried a bandolier bag?

Pate: No, I haven't. I haven't tried one of those. I thought about doing the Choctaw sash. I want to try one of those. See where that gets me.

Little Thunder: There were a few years, I know, when the gallery downtown closed and before Leslie opened her gallery out here. Did you kind of slow down your production during that time?

Pate: No, towards the end of when Hannah shut her gallery down is when I started doing work for Shorty's up in the stockyards. She keeps me busy with three to four hats a month.

Little Thunder: This is the western wear store. Is that right?

Pate: She does hats only, I think.

Little Thunder: Oh, she does hats only.

Pate: Yeah, Shorty's Hattery.

Little Thunder: You do the beaded headbands for that, hat bands.

Pate: The hat bands and the brands on some of them.

Little Thunder: Oh, you bead the brands, too. Oh, yeah. So that's kind of nice 25:00to have standing orders, but then maybe on the other hand it's sort of stressful, too.

Pate: Sometimes. They're about three months behind on hats right now, so when I get them, they're wanting to rush. They'll give me a deadline, but I can usually get it done.

Little Thunder: How much of your work is commissions?

Pate: Lately, most of it. Before, maybe two years ago, I was doing a lot of shows, but within this last couple years, I've kind of slowed down on the shows and have just done commission work because I've also got another job.

Little Thunder: Right. So how do you carve out time for your beadwork?

Pate: On my days off.

Little Thunder: That's when you know you're beading.

Pate: That's when I--yeah.

Little Thunder: You gave a workshop to members of the Choctaw Cultural Club, right, at one point? When did you get involved with the Choctaw Club?

Pate: Again, through the AICS I met a lady that had been a member, and then once it broke up she, I guess, went to Choctaw Alliance and started doing stuff with them. She called me and asked me to come do it, so I went up there.

Little Thunder: What was that like, doing your first workshop?

Pate: It was fun. It was fun. It was a lot of fun getting to know other people and showing them how to do beadwork.

Little Thunder: Sometimes your students can indirectly give you ideas, too. I 27:00don't know if that happened or not.

Pate: Oh, not really. (Laughter) I still have students that come by and say, "I still haven't finished." That's been, you know, years ago. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, you don't have to worry about any competition, do you? (Laughter) I understand you were going to have a show at the Department of Interior at the American Indian Arts and Crafts store there. You're ready to go, and the government shutdown happened. Can you tell us that story?

Pate: They picked a really good time to shut down for us because I think it may have been maybe a week before, they shut down when I bought my tickets to fly 28:00out there. Nobody knew if they were going to open or not or anything. Then they opened the day before I was supposed to go. They still had a small thing, I think, because it was their seventy-fifth anniversary thing. I think they're supposed to do one in November, but I think they've already got artists scheduled for that.

Little Thunder: So you had sent your work or not?

Pate: I didn't. I was going to take it with me because you can pack mine easy. We didn't know anything. Then we finally decided, "We'll just not," because we weren't sure, even if they did open. We decided not to, so I just sent my stuff to her.

Little Thunder: So they will be showing your stuff, whether or not you decide to 29:00go in November.

Pate: Right, right. She'll have it there at least.

Little Thunder: What's an upcoming project that you're really excited about?

Pate: Upcoming project. I guess probably my holiday show will be coming up soon. I should be already working on that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Getting some work out for that. That'll be here at the gallery in November?

Pate: Yes.

Little Thunder: What would you like to try in terms of beadwork that you haven't had a chance to try so far?

Pate: Like I said, I want to do a cradleboard, a full-size. I have an idea of another dress. This time, I actually found me a form to use, so I'll have 30:00something to put it on. All my other dresses, my husband has had to make a form for.

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah, that's crucial.

Pate: To be able to hang it up and see what you're doing. Then I have an idea of mixing media on my work. I've kind of started on it. It's going to be a bronze piece with beading, together. I hope it turns out the way I'm thinking it's going to.

Little Thunder: That sounds really fascinating because you would be sort of doing the model and having it cast.

Pate: Right, and I would have to do the beading. Every piece would be bronze. 31:00It's going to be a turtle. What it will be is, I'll bead the turtle part, the back, and maybe some on the bottom, and it's going to fit into a bronze, kind of like--the outside will be bronze. It's going to have a lip around it with the feet and the head are going to be bronze. We'll see how it works out.

Little Thunder: That sounds really neat. Are you collaborating with anybody?

Pate: No. I know David Kaskaske wanted me to do some work with him, but we haven't connected yet.

Little Thunder: You'll be designing the whole turtle.

Pate: Yeah, I'll be doing that myself.

Little Thunder: Now, do any of your daughters do beadwork, either of your daughters?

Pate: They both did a piece, and they won at the kids Red Earth show. They both won. One won First Place; the other won Second Place. That's all they've ever beaded.

Little Thunder: Had to prove they could do it, I guess.

Pate: Right. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Let's talk about your process and techniques a bit more. I read that you don't sketch your designs. You start with colors. Can you explain for us?

Pate: I have a Pyrex dish that I put the colors that I want to use in that. If it's something somebody has commissioned, then I'll certainly do what they want and in the colors that they want, but most of the time, I do colors I want to do. I mix them, and that's how I use them. I start out, and it just goes where 33:00it goes.

Little Thunder: So you can sort of move the colors around. That's part of the reasoning.

Pate: Right, right. That way if I don't like the yellow here, then I can just put green there. Just depends on what I'm doing most of the time.

Little Thunder: How do you think your use of color, your palette, has changed over the years?

Pate: I don't know if it's really changed. There are certainly more colors now than you could get before. I think it's more contemporary colors than the older traditional colors that I like.

Little Thunder: And you're not really drawn to antique beads too much?

Pate: I usually, I use thirteens. That's all I've ever used because I like the way they shine. When you're finished with the product, to me, I like that, so that's what I've used. I'll use a size, maybe, ten to do the outline, but other than that, I've used that or smaller. The smaller, you get a better design.

Little Thunder: Do you have a pretty good supplier for your buckskin right now?

Pate: Yeah, I order it from a catalog. You can get it that's brain-tanned or whatever.

Little Thunder: Where do you buy your beads? Do you like to buy online, or do you like to go to shows, or--

Pate: I used to go to powwows and buy them there. Then I had a lady that used to 35:00sell them. She would sell them at powwows, and I could go to her. Then she quit selling them, so I had to find other outlets to get them. I order a lot of them from Crazy Crow.

Little Thunder: Have you done any loom work at all? Do you have any interest in that?

Pate: That's what I do the hatbands. I do hatbands on the loom. I do bracelets on the loom. You can do belts on a loom.

Little Thunder: What makes your bead art--what separates it or distinguishes it from that of other bead workers?

Pate: I've had people tell me it's more the traditional way of beading, but I don't know. I don't see how different a lazy stitch can be from another lazy 36:00stitch, or a peyote stitch can be from, you know. I don't do a lot of, like, the other brick stitch or church stitch. I don't do a lot of that. Mine's usually lazy or embroidery.

Little Thunder: Is functionality important to you, that people use some of the items that you make in some way?

Pate: Yeah. Yeah, it is. I do a lot of things that can be--. Like, I've done a lot of moccasins that I think a lot of people will take pictures of their babies in them and then frame them in the shadowboxes and stuff. I thought that was kind of neat. I like them being able to use the purses and things. That's why I 37:00tell them, "If you use a purse, and something comes apart or something, just always send it back. I can always fix it." I think so. I like being able to use them.

Little Thunder: What's your creative process from the time that you get an idea?

Pate: A lot of it depends on what I have to use with. If I have everything there, then I can get it done pretty fast. If I'm excited about something, I'll work on it, really with it.

Little Thunder: And you won't do any sketching of what the--

Pate: Now, I say I don't, but I do doctor's bags. My first one I did had everything to do with medicine and Native American, so I would sketch out what I wanted on each side. That's how I'd go about doing those.

Little Thunder: Right. We know that you work at your beading when you're not at work. Do you work during the night better or the day better?

Pate: My best time is early morning. I like working early morning.

Little Thunder: Do you like working to music or TV, or does it matter?

Pate: Either.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what's been one of the high points?

Pate: Getting any awards for the work you've done. It seems all of it's been a lot of fun.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Pate: Probably right now would be not knowing how long I'm going to be able to do it because of my eyes.

Little Thunder: Right, you're having your eyes checked, getting that situation looked into. That would really sort of--it could do a number on you, couldn't it?

Pate: Yeah, yeah.

Little Thunder: You'll be in our thoughts and prayers about that.

Pate: I appreciate it.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to add or talk about, something we might have forgotten to include?

Pate: Not that I can think of.

Little Thunder: And you don't want to tell us what you're working on for Indian Market. (Laughter) This probably won't go up online before that.

Pate: Well, I had two kind of things. I was wanting to do these, you know, cards, a deck of cards? I really wanted to do a deck of cards, but trying to figure out how to show them all is a big deal. Then another dress, I'd like to do a dress. I'll have to figure out which one I want to do, which one I'm up to doing.

Little Thunder: Right, right. Well, great. We're going to take a look at your work now. Okay, this is an example of one of your beaded bags. Do you want to talk to us about this?

Pate: This is a Choctaw stickball bag. All my purses, I do something kind of different. This one, with the little things--

Little Thunder: I see that, yeah.

Pate: --only on this side, though. (Laughter) You can tell it's Choctaw stickball by the way the string is.

Little Thunder: Right. Beautiful, beautiful beads. That white just sets it off.

Pate: I like the brown colors.

Little Thunder: Yes, I do, too. Do you ever title your bags or your beadwork?

Pate: Not the purses, I haven't. The doctor's bags, I have some.

Little Thunder: Oh, you have. So you'd given them a title. All right.

Pate: (Focusing on another piece of beadwork.) My son shoots skeet, so this was 43:00something he was wanting. I had to make one to make sure I could do it. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: And it's really pictorial. You're telling a whole little story here. I love the buffalo and the warrior there.

Pate: He's supposed to be a little boy with baby buffalos.

Little Thunder: Okay, yeah. He does look like a little--. Very nice. Those are kind of silver--are they old German silver tacks or--

Pate: They're old coins.

Little Thunder: Old coins. Beautiful with the fringes. That's really neat. All right, these are the last three items. You want to talk to us about those again?

Pate: These are little horned toads that I do. A lot of them, we put pins on them, and they hang them on their jackets or scarves or something. This is a 44:00little business card pouch. This is a box with the peyote stitch on it that I learned. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That they wouldn't let you hold, but you figured it out. (Laughter) That is gorgeous.

Pate: What I'm working on, this will be the top of--

Little Thunder: Oh, yeah. Oh, wow, that just pops. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Carol.

Pate: Thank you.

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