Oral history interview with Lisa Rutherford

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Monday, October 21, 2013, and I'm interviewing Lisa Rutherford as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at OSU. We're at the Cherokee Arts Center where Lisa has a studio and displays her work. Lisa, you also paint and do Southeastern applique beadwork and have won several First Place and Best of Division awards, from pottery to feather capes, which I see a lot of artists picking up on. You're deeply involved with the Cherokee artists and community projects, including the [Cherokee] National Treasures Association, of which you are a board member. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

Rutherford: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Rutherford: I was born right here in Cherokee County in Tahlequah. I grew up on a dairy out west of town, which now it's a cattle ranch. I still live out on the 1:00family ranch.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. So your folks--talk a little bit about daily living over there.

Rutherford: Well, I grew up taking care of cattle. I learned to work hard on the dairy. My sister and I both had to work. We had our chores. We had animals to take care of. We had horses. We helped my dad with the dairy all we could.

Little Thunder: Were either of your grandparents close by?

Rutherford: My dad's parents lived just up the road until--I think I was five and six when we lost first my grandmother and then my grandfather. My mom's dad, Joe Thornton, is ninety-seven, ninety-eight years old, and he still lives out at Park Hill.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with them, either side?

Rutherford: My dad's parents, we saw them every day. We had a pretty close relationship, but I was pretty young when I lost them. I still have some good memories.

Little Thunder: Did you get a lot of exposure to the language growing up?

Rutherford: Not a lot. My great-granny on my mom's side, she tried to teach us. Her children grew up in the boarding school era, so she didn't teach them a language. She said she didn't want them speaking broken English. Of course, at that time there was the pressure from the schools to not speak Cherokee, so she didn't teach them. Then later I think she regretted it and tried to teach the grandkids and great-grandkids.

Little Thunder: Did you have any extended family members who were artistic?

Rutherford: My grandmother on my mom's side painted. She's probably the one that 3:00got me started. She probably stirred my interest in art. She would let me play with her oil paints, her pastels, and she taught me how to draw when I was probably, I remember being about five, I think. I have to go by which house she lived in at the time. She's the one who taught me how to draw.

Little Thunder: What kinds of things did you draw?

Rutherford: Oh, I think we drew, like, a lot of flowers, plants. I can remember trying to draw people, animals. When I was young, I drew horses constantly because I always liked horses, always had horses. I was always drawing horses.

Little Thunder: So what are your earliest memories of seeing Native art?

Rutherford: I can't really remember the earliest. I saw my grandmother's paintings, but they weren't really Native art. She did mostly landscapes, maybe architecture, buildings. She did Golda's old mill. She painted that. I don't know. I never really thought about my first exposure. I don't think I distinguished it from other art. It was just art.

Little Thunder: Would drawing and painting be among your earliest memories of making art? Do you have any memories before that?

Rutherford: Yeah, probably the drawing and the painting, but I didn't paint until--. I think my grandmother quit painting at some point. I continued 5:00drawing, but I didn't have paint anymore. Someone gave me some paints when I was, like, in the fifth grade. I painted a picture, but I didn't paint again until 2009. I'm just really learning to paint properly.

Little Thunder: What were your art experiences like in elementary school?

Rutherford: None. We didn't have art. We would get to color, maybe. I do remember getting to play with finger paints one year, but we had no art classes. When I was a junior, they finally had an art class at my high school.

Little Thunder: Did you learn anything there that you sort of carried with you?

Rutherford: I learned a lot about drawing. I got to take art when I was a junior and senior. That was my first classes in art, my first drawing lessons. We did a 6:00little bit of pottery; we did a little bit of jewelry. He just tried to give us the basics of everything, and my art teacher was the only person that encouraged me to go to college. Nobody at my high school had ever encouraged us to go, but he's probably the reason that I enrolled.

Little Thunder: Where did you enroll?

Rutherford: I enrolled at NSU [Northeastern State University] three weeks after I graduated from high school. I was an art major, but my parents weren't very happy about that. They wanted me to do something that I could make a living at. I had an art teacher that also discouraged me because I didn't want to be a teacher. It was a ceramics teacher, and he told me that I wasn't good enough.

Little Thunder: Amazing. (Laughter) So did you hang in there, or did you switch 7:00your major?

Rutherford: I changed my major to office administration. I worked most of my career doing clerical or administrative-type work.

Little Thunder: After graduating.

Rutherford: Yes.

Little Thunder: Were you working at the [Cherokee] Nation or--

Rutherford: I worked at Northeastern for a little while, and then I worked for the Nation. I was Chief [Chad] Smith's executive assistant for ten years. I got a lot of good experience there, a lot of opportunities that maybe I wouldn't have had elsewhere. I learned a lot about Cherokee history, the current issues, legal aspects of the issues that were going on with the Nation. Then after that, I spent three years working for Cherokee Nation Entertainment, and that was not a good choice. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: But at some point, you got interested in art again. Can you tell us that story?

Rutherford: Two thousand four, I was burned out. I was stressed from work. Working for the chief is a very high-stress job. I just felt like there was something missing in my life. A friend of mine took me up to Bill Glass' studio up at Locust Grove. They were working on the ceramic art installation for The Passage in Chattanooga, Tennessee. My friend Ken introduced me to Bill. Bill shook my hand, and handed me a piece of fired clay and a brush and some iron oxide and said, "Here, put five coats on here. Let it dry. Brush it off between coats." (Laughter)

I was just intimidated beyond belief because this was Bill Glass, and I knew this was a huge project. I can show you today that piece in the installation, 9:00that first piece. It was a piece of the rattlesnake. I worked all day, and I loved it. My old background from the ceramics classes came back to me. I remembered working with the clay, so I picked it up really quickly. I came back the next day. Bill said, "Would you like to clock in?" I said, "No, I just want to be part of this project, and I want to learn from you."

I knew that Chattanooga was a major trailhead for the Trail of Tears, and I knew that my family had come through that area during Removal. They had walked on that very spot. I wanted to be part of that, so I volunteered, and I worked every weekend, every holiday off work. Every chance I got, I was up at Bill's, helping with them with that project.

Little Thunder: That's a great story, and I want to get it straight. Did you 10:00anticipate that you were actually going to work that first day when you were introduced to it?

Rutherford: No, I had no idea. (Laughs) I just went to see what they were working on and to meet Bill.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. So did you go out there with the group?

Rutherford: I went out there for the opening. Several artists went from Cherokee Nation, and we had a booth, had a big tent for the artists. They had all kinds of festivities going on. The Chief went, the Council, all the elected officials. It was a huge festival. I ended up driving a truck and trailer that belonged to Cherokee Nation, hauling art for several other artists. A lot of people rode a bus down there. Sharon Irla and I, (Sharon's a wonderful painter) she rode with me, and we drove to Chattanooga and just had a great time.

It was really exciting for us to see. Sharon also worked on the project, and it was so exciting for us to see the art installed and see the water that comes down the steps to the river. Demos Glass, Bill's son, had a stainless steel water spider in a reflecting pool, and Robby McMurtry, who is gone now, Robby had seven stickball player figures that were on the north wall that were just wonderful. It was really exciting to see all that in place and to see our names on this plaque on the wall, where we knew our ancestors had been forced to leave so many years ago.

Little Thunder: They listed the studio artists' names, as well?

Rutherford: Yeah, they listed studio volunteers, everyone that had anything to do with it. We all got our names on there. I was really honored when they told 12:00me my name would be on there. Then Bill said, "I was going to put Corkscrew--" the studio dog's name "--on there, too, but I decided against it." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So then did you begin to experiment with your own pottery?

Rutherford: I did. When that project ended, it affected all of us very deeply. I only worked four months, but the others had been working for a full year, 24/7. Every day, they were working on that. They had been behind schedule. They said when they had a need, Bill got behind and was wondering how he was going to get caught back up. The other Lisa, Alisa Ballou, knocked on his door. She needed some work for an internship, so she started working with him. Then, they were needing help again, and Ken just happened to bring me up there. Every time they 13:00had a problem, someone would walk in the door that could solve their problem. When it was over, we just felt such a loss, such a big emptiness. I missed the camaraderie, I missed that creative energy, and I realized that creativity was what was missing from my life. I wanted to continue, and I saw in the newspaper that Jane Osti was offering a traditional pottery class.

I'd always been interested in the traditional pottery. I had taken wheel-thrown ceramics in college, but I didn't stick with it. I'd never tried the traditional, so I took Jane's class. It was, I think, four weeks, two times a week, and when it was over, I thought, "Well, I'll just try to continue this at home." Jane wouldn't let me quit. We worked out a deal where I would work for her in the studio and help her with things on the computer, things that she 14:00didn't know how to do, in exchange for lessons. I worked with Jane for a full year in her studio, and she encouraged me to enter the art shows. She showed me the ropes, introduced me to people, and really helped me get started at the art markets because it's tough to get thrown into an art market without knowing what to do, where to go, how to navigate the system.

Little Thunder: Right, what a wonderful apprenticeship. Did you actually sort of share a booth with her towards the end a little bit?

Rutherford: No, I didn't share a booth with her. I had my own booth. I think Eiteljorg [Museum of American Indians and Western Art] was the first show that I did. I went up there all by myself. She was there. We didn't travel together or anything. It was pretty scary going to a strange town, not knowing where the museum was and not knowing where to go unload or where to park. It was pretty 15:00intimidating, but Jane kind of helped me out, gave me advice, and I sold several things. I didn't do real well, but well enough.

Little Thunder: Had you entered the competition at Eiteljorg that first year?

Rutherford: I did. I think I got Third Place.

Little Thunder: What was your reaction to that?

Rutherford: I was stunned. I was really surprised.

Little Thunder: Some intense competition.

Rutherford: Yeah. Yeah, I was happy with it. I don't think I fully realized at the time how stiff the competition was up there. I was excited, but then later I started to realize--. I had won a First Place at the Cherokee Heritage Center in my first competition, and then I got the Third Place. I learned very quickly that a Third Place at Eiteljorg carried way more weight than a first place here locally. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Who were some of the other potters you admired?

Rutherford: Joel Queen. Joel taught me a lot. He taught me the stamped pottery. He's an Eastern Band potter and a very dear friend of mine.

Little Thunder: How did you meet him?

Rutherford: Jane and I heard about a Qualla pottery conference in North Carolina. Up until that time, we had been doing Southeast-style pottery, mound builder pottery, but we didn't have anything that was specifically Cherokee. Well, this was a Cherokee pottery conference. Neither of us had the money to go, and I talked Chief Smith into sending me there to do research for the Building One Fire book, which he published. Jane, someone sponsored her. We barely had any money and we went down to this conference. I did make a lot of good contacts 17:00for that book, but it was an archaeology conference. There were four potters there, and that was me, Jane, Joel Queen, and Tamara Beane. By noon, the four of us had got together and planned a pottery class here in Oklahoma to teach us that stamped pottery that's unique to Cherokee pottery. Tamara and Joel were part of the revival in North Carolina.

The stamped pottery was lost for about ninety years, or all but lost. When Anna Mitchell revived pottery here in Oklahoma, she didn't have wood paddles. She made clay stamps with the same designs, but she didn't use the paddles. Joel taught us that technique. The museum in North Carolina and I think it was UNC at Chapel Hill that partnered with them. There were a couple of different entities, 18:00and they revived the pottery form and formed a potters guild. Tamara Beane was part of that, too. She's another potter that I admire a lot. You can show her a broken piece of pottery, and she can tell you where it probably came from and recreate the whole pot. Joel is just crazy talented. He's taught me more little tricks, shortcuts, how to fix things. That's my favorite thing to do when I go to North Carolina is to go to Joel's studio and just sit and talk to him and watch him work. Of course, Anna Mitchell, you can't not mention Anna. Most of the potters that are doing this pottery today, if Anna didn't teach them, she taught our teachers. She's just a huge, huge influence on all the potters.

Little Thunder: How did you become interested in Southeastern applique beadwork?

Rutherford: Martha Berry. (Laughter) I loved beadwork, and I had been making earrings and playing with beads for years. Martha offered a class at the Cherokee Heritage Center. I can't remember what the first class--. Maybe it was a sash. I took the class. I really enjoyed it, but I didn't finish my project. She gave another class--

Little Thunder: You just took it home with you.

Rutherford: Yeah, I just never finished it. I took another class of Martha's, and I got to be friends with her. When I was working on that Building One Fire book, we did a call for art. People were sending me pictures of old beadwork. After about a year, it dawned on me, "I bet Martha would like to see these." I 20:00sent her several pictures, and we found some very significant pieces. One of them, Martha started crying when I sent it to her. I'm always making her cry. I said, "Here's this ugly little purse from NMAI [National Museum of the American Indian]," and she's like, "You don't know what you sent me. You don't know what you've done."

She had been trying for maybe ten years to document these little purses like the one behind me. She knew that Cherokees had them, but she could not document that Cherokees made them. I sent her an example from the Smithsonian with the documentation. Her next class she taught was the little beaded bags, and I was in that class. Martha realized I was as interested in the research and the history behind it as she was, so she took me under her wing and threatened to kill me if I ever quit doing beadwork. Made me learn. She trained me to teach 21:00classes, and I still think she and Meredith [then Director of the Cherokee Heritage Center] tricked me into teaching that first class.

Little Thunder: Well, talk about that, your first teaching experience in beadwork. (Laughter)

Rutherford: I taught the first time--I used to be really shy and never wanted to be the center of attention. I didn't like to talk in front of people, and Martha, she made me teach with her. I was her apprentice teacher. We taught the class, and she did most of the work, most of the talking. I liked it. I had fun. I paid close attention to how she taught things, how she demonstrated. Then the next year, I noticed they had scheduled a beginning Cherokee beadwork class. I kept saying, "Who's teaching this class? Who's going to teach?" Nobody knew; 22:00nobody would say anything. Then when it came right down almost time for the class, they said, "Would you teach?" I still think she and Mary Ellen did that.

Little Thunder: It was a conspiracy. (Laughter)

Rutherford: I taught my first class, and I really enjoyed it. Learned more about teaching now, so I think I could streamline things a little bit more.

Little Thunder: And then you became interested in the bigger picture of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century Cherokee clothing.

Rutherford: Yeah, I went to North Carolina. I'd met some of the people, some of the artists there when I was working on the Building One Fire book. I worked on it for five and a half years. It took us that long to get the book finished. I was (what was my title?) managing director, something like that. My job was to take care of the releases, the paperwork, and to log all the photographs, and we 23:00had thousands of photographs. I went on most of the photo shoots. I worked with all the photographers, and I met a lot of artists. I went back to North Carolina for an art market, and I met a lot of--

Little Thunder: With your pottery?

Rutherford: Yes, and I met a lot of the artists there, and a lot of people that worked in the village. I met the Warriors of AniKituhwa. They demonstrate the social dances, and they're the ambassadors for the tribe. When they were photographing some of the warriors, (the Qualla co-op let us use their classroom as a studio) just for fun, the photographers and I decided to take our picture with the guys. I think there were three of them. While we were posing, my 24:00friend, (she had us scooted up so close to each other) I felt like he was poking me in the ribs. He looked at me and says, "You need clothes like this." I said, "I would like to have eighteenth-century clothing" because everyone here wears the tear dresses, and they're terribly unflattering to anyone unless you're a skinny twelve-year-old.

So I got interested in that, and Barbara Duncan at the Museum of the Cherokee Indian shared all her research with me and a lot of information. Some of the guys helped me out. One of them gave me moccasins. One of them gave me jewelry. This was over a long period of time. A couple of them went fabric shopping with me, and they were telling me what fabrics to get. If I started to wear something wrong, they would come tell me about it. "I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but women didn't wear these, historically." Sometimes I would listen to them, 25:00and sometimes I would say, "Well, they do now." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: So you were making women's clothing for yourself, sort of, and learning in the process.

Rutherford: Yeah. I enjoyed wearing the clothing. It was a lot more comfortable and practical than the tear dress. I've learned that clothing helps people feel more of a connection to the festival. They feel like if they talk to someone who is dressed in the time period or the cultural clothing, that makes them feel like they've had a closer connection. The tourists enjoy it. The art market buyers enjoy it. It leads to dialogue, and you can tell them a little bit more about your history and why you're wearing certain things. I just like wearing it at the festivals.

Little Thunder: Can you describe--was it a blouse and skirt?

Rutherford: Men and women, both, wore the linen trade shirts. They were shipped over from England by the bale. They were white linen shirts, long sleeve, loose fitting, so they're very comfortable. Women wore a wool wrapped skirt from Stroud wool, which was made in Stroud, England. The identifying characteristic of that wool is the white sawtooth edge where it was clamped into a frame for dyeing. Cherokees used that white sawtooth as a decoration, as a border on their skirts. Then men and women, both, wore wool leggings that came up just above your knee. They were seamed on the side. After 1800, they had center-seamed leggings, and then the pucker-toe moccasins.

Little Thunder: So at one point, you decided to try a feather cape. Can you talk 27:00about how that happened?

Rutherford: Well, Eastern Band started--I go to Cherokee, North Carolina, at least two times a year, sometimes five times a year. I have a lot of friends there. I'm very close to most of the artists, and I had noticed they were starting to wear the feather capes with their traditional clothing. There was an exhibit called Emissaries of Peace. It was taken from Lieutenant Henry Timberlake's journals. He lived with the Cherokees for two months in 1762, and then he ended up taking three of the leaders to England. He described the women wearing these feathered capes, so I got really interested in that.

Tonia Weavel and I decided we were going to make one. We knew that the lady who had made the Eastern Band capes was from Pittsburgh and was not a Native woman. She worked at a museum. She was a museum professional, and she had replicated 28:00one of these feather capes. We borrowed one that she had made that someone had purchased from her, and we locked ourselves in the Owen Schoolhouse, which is now a community building, for six days. We studied that cape. We tried to follow the thread path. It's made on a hand-tied net, and it's contoured to fit over your shoulders. We thought maybe it was made in pieces and was sewn together. We tried everything, and we could not make it look like that.

Finally, on the sixth day, she had to leave early. I was sitting there, studying that cape. I would look down, I would go to one knot, and then I would tie it on my net. I would follow to the next one, so I went knot to knot. It finally 29:00clicked how they were doing that. It was very simple, of course. We just made it difficult. As far as I know, it's the first one that was made here in Cherokee Nation using the traditional methods. Now, Wendell Cochran made some turkey feather capes back in the ʼ70s for Miss Cherokee. They weren't made on the net. They were more contemporary. From what I understand, the Miss Cherokees hated wearing it because it was very hot. They are very warm. A lot of the people think the white capes were for the Beloved Woman or signified status, but from all the research that I have done, as far as I can tell, they were just simply for warmth. They're very warm.

Little Thunder: Did you use turkey feathers on yours, too, the first one?

Rutherford: No, I used goose feathers. Historically, the women would have used 30:00flamingoes, parrots, parakeets, ducks, geese, turkeys, whatever was bright and colorful. They preferred the bright colors, and from a lot of the descriptions, they were very colorful. There were indigenous flamingoes. They even used flamingo feathers. I used goose feathers, and I purchased them already dyed and sanitized. When I add turkey feathers, I have to pluck those from the hide and clean them myself, so there's a lot more work involved in the turkey feathers.

Little Thunder: When did you first enter, (I think you called them topper feather capes) when did you first enter one in a competition, and what was the reception for that?

Rutherford: About two years ago, and I don't think I placed. It was really kind 31:00of ignored.

Little Thunder: People didn't know what to make of it, maybe.

Rutherford: Yes. Maybe I got an Honorable Mention.

Little Thunder: Was it at Cherokee Homecoming or--

Rutherford: Either Trail of Tears or Cherokee Homecoming. I can't remember. I think one thing that hurt it was they hung it right beside Roy Boney's Raven Mocker painting. Of course, the Raven Walker is a witch who has black feathers and looks like a raven. They hung my cape right beside it, which was kind of spooky. I didn't do very well there. Again, I entered the one behind me at the Five Tribes Art Under the Oaks. I got Second Place there. Historically, whatever I enter in that show that does not place or does not do well wins major awards elsewhere. That's happened to me several times, so I took it to Eiteljorg. I 32:00took it to Red Earth. I don't think I placed at Red Earth. I got a Third Place on a twined bag [twining is an ancient technique for making textiles]--no, on pottery that was imprinted with twined textile. I don't think the cape placed at all.

Little Thunder: And here, it's all this work with the netting and the...

Rutherford: Yeah, two and a half months, hand-tied net, and each feather has to be individually--the quill has to be folded over and lashed down, and then they're individually sewn on. I think I figured there was 2,100 feathers, at least, in that cape. I went to Eiteljorg and entered it there in the cultural items, and I entered some pottery. When I went to pick up my items, they told me, "They have to stay here for the preview party." They gave me my papers, and 33:00on one of them I saw it had "Best of Division" on the pottery. I looked at that, and she said, "Oh, you weren't supposed to see that. I'll just tell you, you got First Place and Best of Division on your pottery." I didn't know what I had won on the cape yet. I came that night to the preview party, and I could not hear the emcee. The acoustics were terrible. They called the Best of Division winners up, which I already knew I'd won for pottery.

Then they're reading down the list, and he said my name again. He said, "Oh, I must have lost my place. I'm repeating myself." Then he said something about First Place, and I still didn't know until I got inside and everyone was congratulating me. One of the other artists said, "Two Best of Divisions?" I said, "Oh, no, I just got Best of Division in pottery." She said, "No, you 34:00didn't. You got Best of Division in Cultural Items!" I said, "No, I didn't!" I walked over there to look, and there was a big gold star on the label in front of my cape that said, "Best of Division." I ended up getting two First Place and two Best of Divisions and had been in contention for Best of Show. After the show, the judges started coming up to me and talking to me about the feather cape and telling me what they liked about it and why they had chosen it.

Little Thunder: Finally, some recognition.

Rutherford: Yeah, I was stunned. I was really, really shocked.

Little Thunder: So now when you do the capes, are they mainly for people? You've had them in some fashion shows, right?

Rutherford: Yeah, I had one in the American Indian Alaska Native Tourism Association Conference in Tulsa. I was asked to be on a panel and do a 35:00presentation at that conference. I met a lady in Santa Fe that invited me to attend. She said, "Well, you can put some things in the fashion show if you'd like." I said, "I'm not really a designer. I only have that one thing. I have clothing, but I make it only for myself, and obviously my clothing is not going to fit a model." I had suggested Tonia Weavel be another speaker, so Tonia, Margaret Roach Wheeler, and I were the three on the panel.

When I got there, they were running around with all their clothes. They were all excited. They were finding models, and Tonia said, "Well, where's your clothes?" I said, "I don't have anything but this cape." She said, "I thought you'd wear your eighteenth-century clothes. You're not putting it in the show?" I said, "Well, just one thing." That was when I found out that we were the fashion show. It was not a show that we were welcome to put items in. We were the fashion 36:00show, (Laughs) and it started in forty-five minutes.

Little Thunder: Oh my goodness. (Laughs)

Rutherford: Margaret had ten pieces, I think, and Tonia had several. They went around the conference and found models from the conference attendees. Margaret, her first model up was wearing a simple sheath dress with one shoulder. She had a shawl over that and a headpiece. When she came off the stage, we took off Margaret's shawl and put my feather cape on her and took off the headpiece. She went back out again, and no one even realized it was the same woman. I walked out on the stage and described my one little piece. Then I left the stage, and Tanya took over. It was exciting. It got a really good reception. People approached me after the fashion show and talked to me about it.

Little Thunder: Did you get any orders from that fashion show?

Rutherford: I didn't. I had one lady interested that may order one later, but I am pretty much booked up with orders right now.

Little Thunder: Most of them go to North Carolina?

Rutherford: I had three for Miss Cherokee contestants in North Carolina. Then Orlando Dugi, who's a Navajo fashion designer, has taken three of them so far. He adds a silk lining, a standup beaded collar. He's a silversmith, so he does a silver clasp with maybe a stone, and maybe he'll add exotic feathers. He's putting them on the runway with his hand-stitched, hand-beaded evening gowns. He sold two, I think, and he just ordered two more. The long one was actually made for him, but I think I need to make him a different one that fits him a little better because it was longer, the proportions were different, and I had to 38:00experiment with the netting to make it fit right. I've got orders, let's see, two more. One is from another artist that lives in Tulsa, and one for a former Miss Cherokee that lives here. Then he wants two, and then I think I have another one. I don't know. I have five orders, anyway.

Little Thunder: Wow. So that turned out to be kind of a collaboration, a really neat ongoing collaboration. What is a museum show that you consider especially important to your career so far?

Rutherford: Museum shows. I always enter the local shows at the Cherokee Heritage Center. The Eiteljorg show, I think that was an important one to enter because I was really surprised after my first time. I went to a show in Santa Fe 39:00at (I can't remember which museum it was) that Native Treasures show, and the artists there, several of them remembered me. That surprised me that they knew me from that one show. I've been to Santa Fe Indian Market twice.

Little Thunder: You've had a booth there for two years?

Rutherford: Yes.

Little Thunder: Just the last two, or--

Rutherford: No, I went in 2010, and I didn't do very well there. I don't really care for the Santa Fe area that much, and I didn't go back because I came out way in the red. This year, since this is my first year to be a full-time artist and I can tell my work has improved a lot, I thought, "Well, I want to go back and try it one more time and just see if it's different." I partnered with one of my friends from North Carolina who is a shell carver. It was his first time 40:00to attend. He needed someone to kind of show him the ropes, and we ended up sharing a booth. He did very well. He won some prizes. I won a prize in 2010, but this year I didn't have anything that really--my entry didn't fit any of the categories.

Little Thunder: What was it?

Rutherford: It was a traditional pot and traditionally fired. Everything about it was traditional, except I purchased the clay. There is no category--you can't enter traditional with purchased clay. It was in a (what was it?) "Contemporary Pottery - Other" classification. I ended up with some of the really well-known potters there, so I didn't even place.

Little Thunder: Did you do pretty well at the Market, though?

Rutherford: Oh, I came within ninety dollars of my goal. I didn't really expect to sell much pottery there because it's a Southwest market and they're not 41:00familiar with Southeast, but surprisingly my really traditional stuff did better than the more contemporary.

Little Thunder: I noticed you're involved with the Cherokee Native Art and Plant Society. I was wondering how many artists are in that group and how that has impacted your work?

Rutherford: There's just a few of us that are really active with that, and right now it's kind of dormant. We haven't done a lot. Roger and Shawna Cain and, I think, Jane Osti were some of the original founders of that group. Their focus was to work with those that have been named the Cherokee National Treasures that are mostly the elders, and all three of them are Cherokee National Treasures. They wanted to help--maybe they go out and help gather the buck brush or honeysuckle. Roger and Shawna do river cane, and they were just helping some of the elders gather their materials and trying to promote them. After that, the 42:00Cherokee National Treasures Association kind of evolved from that, so they're sister organizations. I was a volunteer with the Native Art and Plant Society, and then they asked me to be on the board of the new association.

I'm not a Cherokee National Treasure, but they wanted some non-National Treasures on the board. They're focusing mostly on helping the elders market their work and promoting them. They've gone to the tribe and asked the chief to allow the National Treasures to have a free booth at any of the nation's art shows or events. Sometimes they'll negotiate to get them a free room at the Art Market or something. We just advocate for the elders. We're trying to record them, interview them, preserve their knowledge. We do a lot of videotaping and 43:00interviewing of them, and we just have fun.

Little Thunder: Sounds like wonderful work. I noticed that you actually have taken a workshop on art marketing and professional development. Was that helpful to you, the First Nation's--

Rutherford: Yeah, the First Nation's Development Fund. That was very helpful. They held that, I think, in Locust Grove, and they taught us about marketing our work, pricing, just all aspects. Most artists are terrible business people. We're creative, but we're not good at doing our paperwork and promoting ourselves. I took that class, and we learned a lot. I learned a lot from the other artists. It was a really good class, and I took the follow-up classes to become one of the trainers. I didn't get certified because my boss at the time 44:00would not let me off work to go to the certification. I'm still hoping whenever they have a certification somewhere close by that I can go get certified to be one of their trainers, which then I would go out with them. When they teach that class, they always have an artist trainer with them.

Little Thunder: That'd be a great thing to be able to do. We're going to talk a little more about your creative process and your techniques in a minute, but I was also wanting to ask you to explain a little about your studio situation here.

Rutherford: Well, I'd been trying to work out of my home, and I looked around one day. I had thirty-something pots in my living room, and I have a tiny house. There was show coming up, and I thought, "I've got to do something. I can't afford to build a studio." I'd lost my job. Art was my only income, so I had to 45:00get ready for that show. I thought, "Well, maybe I'll go down to the art center and use some of their equipment." I thought, "I should rent that studio," because I knew this had become available. I came down and talked to them. I said, "I want to rent that studio for just a couple of weeks." We talked about it. They said, "We can do a month-to-month lease," so I was able to rent this space. I intended to do it just short term, but then I realized how much more productive I was. I get up, I come to work, I work here however long I want. If I get tired, I can go work at home. It's really helped. It's improved my artwork. It's helped me focus more. It's just been a really good deal to have this opportunity to have this studio.

Little Thunder: Is it like a twenty-minute drive?

Rutherford: Yeah, about twenty minutes, so it's close enough--. I enjoy 46:00interacting with other people. We've got the Spider Gallery just across the way.

Little Thunder: And you've got work there.

Rutherford: Yeah, I sell my work there, and they sell fairly well there. This building has offices in it. There's two or three more studios right now. There are classrooms here, so there's usually other people in here working. It's better than working at home. I get that social interaction.

Little Thunder: Do you have any other galleries in Oklahoma?

Rutherford: I have work in the Red Earth Gallery in Oklahoma City. They gave me a show last year, I think, called The Potter and the Painter. I teamed up with a painter, Jim Van Deman, and the show was supposed to be up for three months. I went to pick my stuff up, and they said, "We don't have anything to put in this case. Can we keep some of your stuff?" I still have a full display case up there.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow. I just wanted to ask you again about that transition. You also mentioned that you--I don't know if you left your job or lost your job, but that decision to make that leap into doing art full-time.

Rutherford: Yeah, I'd lost my job. They did a reorganization and eliminated my job. I had anticipated that this was going to happen. I was not happy in the job at all. I knew it was a mistake when I took it, but I worked there for three years. It was a huge sense of relief to be away from all that stress. I'd saved my money. I had planned for this, so I thought, "I'll try doing art full-time. I've always wondered if I could make it as an artist and always wondered where could I go if I had time to spend all the time I needed on one particular piece 48:00instead of rushing to make the deadline for a show, and rushing to make some small things just to sell to make the gas money." Once I rented the studio, it really turned around for me. I started selling more; my work improved. Everyone says I am much calmer, much happier. I don't look so stressed all the time. It's really been a positive thing for me. I'm not making a lot of money, but I'm getting by.

Little Thunder: Doing what you love.

Rutherford: Yeah.

Little Thunder: All right. Well, you dig and process your own clay. Is your source nearby? Is it on your land or nearby?

Rutherford: No, it's actually Corps of Engineers land by Fort Gibson Lake, and that's where most of the local potters get their clay. The last time I dug 49:00there, the clay quality, it's not as good. It was never a very strong clay, but I liked working with it. I broke, like, seven pots in ten days, and I don't break pots. This was building them, not firing. I would get them built up to a certain point, and they would crack. The clay was too weak.

Little Thunder: Something had changed in the environment.

Rutherford: Yeah, something was different. Maybe I can find a better vein of it, but they keep changing it. They keep bulldozing around there and messing with it, so it's getting contaminated, I think.

Little Thunder: In terms of the clay that you've dug that was working well, were you adding anything to it, any shell or anything?

Rutherford: No, but I've started adding something. The last time I was in North Carolina, I went to a clay company. I forgot to take the sample, of course, but 50:00I told them what was happening, and they suggested a couple of different additives I could try. I tried one of them, and it worked pretty well. I was able to get a couple of pots finished with that. I've got a couple that are ready to fire, so we'll see how it works.

Little Thunder: Some of your designs, you talked about the stamps, the paddle stamp designs. Do you hand carve then? If you have an idea for a design, do you carve your paddle and do all that?

Rutherford: No, I don't carve them. I'm not a wood carver, so most of the paddles I have were given to me by Joel Queen. He's probably given me five or six paddles, and then I purchased some of his paddles at one of the gift shops in North Carolina. I have a few that were carved locally, but the majority of 51:00them were from Joel or Tammy Beane. Her husband, Larry, had carved some and given to me.

Little Thunder: How about textile prints? I noticed some of your designs come from textile prints.

Rutherford: When I was making the feather capes and I got into tying the nets, I helped Shawna Cain [start the net for] her big turkey feather cape that won Best of Show a couple years ago at Cherokee Art Market. It's on a twined net base because it's much larger than what I'm doing. That's when I learned twining. I enjoyed it, and I started looking at the old pottery. I found several online that were found in Tennessee and North Carolina. They were just broken pieces of pottery, but it had the imprint of the textile. I replicated several of those, and I've been using those to print some of my pottery with. It's fun to do. It's 52:00kind of challenging because each pot is different. I haven't really figured out the best way to get that imprint into the clay.

Little Thunder: Yeah, because when we think of textile, we think of something more two-dimensional but flat. That's really interesting. Do you do any incising of designs?

Rutherford: I do incising. Just about anything that was done, historically, I've done it: incising, carving, applique work. I've used shells, sticks, pieces of glass, textile, cords, sticks, peach pits, corn cobs. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I read in one of your online articles that you used to kiln fire your pottery before you wood fired it. Do you still do that?

Rutherford: I do that as a last resort. If I've purchased the clay, usually I'll kiln fire it because it makes it stronger when I wood fire it. I don't have a really good firing area. I need to get some fire bricks and build it up because of the wind. The wind is so unpredictable here. If I fire a big pot, I have to put it inside of a washtub or container to protect it and keep that temperature constant, or it's going to have temperature shock and crack. I kiln fired some first. We had a really wet spring, and I was not able to do any wood firing. Most of my purchased clay, I went ahead and kiln fired it. I won't kiln fire my native clay because I can still enter that in a traditional category.

Little Thunder: You also mentioned in this same article that you prefer to wood fire at night because it's cooler, and also during the full moon. Is that for the light, or is that for another reason?

Rutherford: It just turns out better during a full moon, and I've heard other potters say that. I don't know what it is, but I realized one time that nine times out of ten when I'm firing, there is a full moon. Maybe that's when the weather conditions are right. It's more peaceful. I have asthma, so I get really sick when I fire. It's physically hard on me to do traditional firing, and I may have to give it up. I have to burn the fire several hours to build up a bed of coals, and then I spread it out. Then I set it on broken pieces of pottery. I've got plenty of those. Then I build it up really slow.

By the time I can put the pots in and start building up, it's usually dusk. Then it gets very still, very quiet, so I keep adding wood until it glows red or until I can't get close enough to put any more wood on the fire. If it's inside a container, I can't see when it glows, so if I can't get close enough to add another stick of wood, then I back off. I know it will reach that temperature, and then I can sit back and kind of enjoy it. It's quiet. I can listen to all the animals, the sounds of the night, and relax because it's really hard work. I welcome that quiet time.

Little Thunder: You also talked about how each piece would have sort of its own smoke cloud that would be different from the others. I do love some of the coloring that you get, especially the white-gray combinations. That's kind of a 56:00private moment in the process, isn't it? No one else would see those smoke clouds but you. The collectors would never see that.

Rutherford: Yeah, it's really exciting. I usually leave my pots in overnight because it takes that long for it to cool enough for me to get them out of the fire. The next morning, I can't wait to go look at them and see what I got, see what colors. Sometimes some of my small pieces that are down directly in the coals, like my little turtles, I'm going to have five different colors on them, ranging from pink to brown to gray to tan and maybe some white. You just never know what you're going to get.

Little Thunder: Do you sketch out your designs for your pots before you--

Rutherford: Sometimes, not always. My favorite thing is to start incising free-hand and see what I come up with. That's my favorite, and it seems like a lot of the prizes I've won have been pots I've done that to. Sometimes I feel 57:00like I've made the same pot two or three times, but they consistently win.

Little Thunder: How about your beadwork? Have you mainly done purses, women's purses?

Rutherford: I've done several purses. I've done some of the eighteenth-century-style bags. I've done a couple of those, I think. They have less beadwork, and they're kind of a different style. I've started a bandolier bag, but I'm not happy with it. I'm going to take out all the beads. I just haven't reached that point where mentally I'm ready to rip out all those beads.

Little Thunder: At least you can rip them out as opposed to with pots. (Laughs) Do you sketch out your beadwork designs? How do you choose your colors?

Rutherford: I sketch them out, but when I get ready, I'll pick out my colors. Like maybe I've got certain colors that have been in my mind, and I'll just 58:00think about these colors. Finally I'll pick out my beads, and I'll lay them on the fabric. I'll leave it laying somewhere that I'll walk by several times a day, and every time I go by, I'll look at it. I might move this one hank of beads next to the other, and I switch them around. When I'm finally satisfied and those colors are expressing what I want to do, then I'll sketch out my design, and then I'll start beading. It's more about the color to me, I think, than design.

Little Thunder: What influences which medium you're going to work on from day to day or week to week?

Rutherford: Well, right now, I really want to paint. I'm just dying to paint, but I can't. I've had art shows. I'm known for pottery, so I needed to get 59:00pottery for the different shows. That's what sells. I've got orders for the feather capes. I don't really enjoy making them as much as other art forms, but I've got several orders, and that's my income. I have to do those. I think if I could sit down and do whatever I wanted right now, I think I would paint and do beadwork. I just haven't done beadwork in a while, and I really enjoy it.

Little Thunder: I'm glad you brought up the painting. I want to get back to that in a minute. In terms of feather capes, are you able to charge a price that you feel like you're able to pay yourself for your time?

Rutherford: I think so. I made the mistake early on of giving discounts to a few friends. Then I realized I've got so many orders here, I need to go up. I don't think I was really paying myself enough because there really is a lot of work. I 60:00took two and a half months, working five and six hours a day on the longer one. I'm getting faster now, but it's still a lot of work. Eastern Band people are calling me and ordering them, so there's not that many people that are making them.

Little Thunder: When you're doing something like that, either the beading or the capes, do you listen to music, or watch TV, or--

Rutherford: It depends. It just depends on my mood. Sometimes I want to listen to blues. Sometimes I want old blues. Then sometimes I want loud rock music. There might be days when I just want total silence. I might not even turn on the TV, radio, anything.

Little Thunder: Well, talk about your painting a little bit because I know that that has been an interest of yours.

Rutherford: Yeah, in 2009, Sharon Irla taught a painting class. I took her class, and I painted a friend of mine, who is also a painter. I realized pretty 61:00soon that that was kind of a mistake because I was so worried about what he would think. He is a painter, and that was a little stressful. We were painting little five-by-five miniatures.

Little Thunder: Was it a portrait-type thing?

Rutherford: Yeah, and everybody else is painting people out of magazines or something. I always do that. It's like I always challenge myself. If someone here is painting a flower, I've got to paint a whole forest. (Laughs) At first, I hated it. Bill Glass was in the class with me. Both of us just, "Blah, I just hate this! I'm sticking to clay!" Bill did really well, too. He painted his late brother. Mine turned out pretty good. I'm still not happy with it. I still paint on it now and then. I took her class again, as if I didn't get enough the first 62:00time, and I painted a picture of a little girl from a 1938 photograph. She was actually in a group shot, but I cropped her out. I just loved her expression. Something about that little girl really spoke to me, so I painted her. I did pretty good. I won a Second Place ribbon on the painting.

Little Thunder: At which show?

Rutherford: At Cherokee, North Carolina. I think it was the Festival of Native Peoples Art Market. At that point, they were separate art markets, separate events, but at the same time. When I went to pick up my painting--there's no awards ceremony down there. They open the door and say, "Okay, go see what you won." I went to pick up my painting, and I think I had a piece of pottery in there. My pottery had a ribbon, so I picked it up. I started looking for my 63:00painting and someone said, "It's over there." The only two paintings left on the table were Gary Montgomery's forty-eight-by-forty-eight-inch painting that had just won Best of Show at Red Earth, and my little five-inch painting was right beside it. (Laughter) Gary won First, and there was a red ribbon.

I thought, "That can't go with mine. No, he didn't get Second on that because he won Best of Show. Obviously, he got First." There was no other painting, so I took the ribbon, but I still wouldn't put it out. This was a show that Joel Queen was one of the organizers of. I took it to my booth. Joel came by, and I'm like, "Joel, did I really win this?" He said, "Yes, you did!" So I put it out, and a few minutes later one of the judges came up and said, "How much for that painting?" I hadn't even thought about selling it. I would have taken it home 64:00and painted on it some more. I didn't like the background. I said, "I don't know." He said, "How much? I want to get it before the other judges get here." I said, "Two hundred dollars?" Before I could blink, he was gone with my painting, and I was standing there with two hundred-dollar bills in my hand.

Little Thunder: (Laughs) You may need to do some more painting.

Rutherford: I did the third one. It was a friend of mine. He was going through a rough time. He'd lost his wife and lost his sister. I had a beautiful photograph of him. He's got his head shaved, he's got the scalp lock, and he was in his eighteenth-century clothes. I just loved the way the light was on his face, so I painted him. That was my best painting; it was my third one. This was the first time I had painted since I was probably in the fifth grade. I spent a lot of 65:00time on his painting, and I felt like I finally was starting to learn a little bit. I entered that in a show down in North Carolina, and I got First Place on it. I gave him the painting. It was in a calendar, too. He was very proud of that. He liked it. I took his picture holding the painting and the ribbon and everything.

Little Thunder: I'll have to look for that. Are these oils that you're working in?

Rutherford: Yeah, I love oils. I think they dry too fast. People say they dry slow. I'm, "I'm still working. I'm still blending."

Little Thunder: Do you tend to work on multiple pieces concurrently, too?

Rutherford: Oh, yes, I'm very ADD. (Laughter) Yeah, I work on three to five pots at a time, and I jump back and forth from, maybe, beadwork to pottery. Like today, I'm working up some clay, but at home, I've got a net that I'm working on 66:00for a feather cape. I need to work on some jewelry. I've got some Christmas-type shows coming up, so I need to make--. It's always eighteenth-century style or Mississippian style. I'm making some freshwater-pearl necklaces with copper. I might make some more of the twined bags. I hop back and forth from one to the other.

Little Thunder: You've talked a little bit about some of the research that you've done. Do you find you don't have to do so much research nowadays because you've got a lot of things in your head, or--

Rutherford: I probably do more because I'm more interested in it. I keep learning new things, and the 1700s just fascinate me. I love to research the clothing. I've been to Colonial Williamsburg. A friend of mine got me access to their costume department. Another friend of mine, he makes regalia, and he makes 67:00some of the clothing. We got into the costume department, and they gave us a tour and showed us around. Then he started looking through a doorway. "Look in here. Can we go in here, I wonder?" That's where they were actually doing the sewing and the mending because they costume (I can't remember how many hundreds) like twelve hundred interpreters, twelve hundred characters. Some of [interpreters] do more than one [impression]. They're always mending, repairing, making new things, replacing.

The lady that gave us the tour had moved on, but another lady saw him looking through the doorway. She recognized him as one of the dancers because this was Cherokee Week. The Warriors of AniKituhwa go up there and dance on the Palace Green where the Cherokees danced in 1762 before they went to England. She recognized him, and she said, "I'll take you in there." She ended up taking us 68:00to other areas that weren't really open to the public. They even allowed us to purchase some of the clothes. He bought a couple of waistcoats. That's another interesting thing about it because that time period, Cherokees were mixing their clothing styles with English items, maybe military coats, boots, hats, anything new and different. It's just like now. You see something new and think it's really cool, and you want that, too. He bought a couple of the waistcoats. I'm still regretting that I didn't buy a skirt I saw.

Little Thunder: What a great experience.

Rutherford: Yeah. The next day when the Festival started, several of the artists were demonstrating different arts, and they had told me at one point that I could come and demonstrate. Then they said, "No, we can't pay you because it's only Eastern Band." He said, "I can't let you demonstrate because they might 69:00think there was some deal made," or something. I didn't quite understand. When we got ready to go, I was traveling with my friend who was one of the dancers, and he was also demonstrating beadwork. His brother was demonstrating quill work. I partner with his brother a lot and share booths with him at art markets. We got ready to go, and he said, "Take your bag you're working on to demonstrate." "Well, they told me I can't demonstrate." The brothers looked at me, they said, "You are with us. You take that bag and demonstrate. You're sitting with us." (Laughter) I took it, and then they later thanked me for coming and demonstrating. I got to be the first Cherokee Nation artist to demonstrate at Williamsburg.

Little Thunder: That is very cool. Of course, your creative process is probably different for different media, too, but in general do you keep a notebook that 70:00you write ideas down in, or how do you--

Rutherford: I have scraps of paper everywhere with notes and ideas, napkins, papers. (Laughter) I have all kinds of little notebooks. I can't manage to get them in my sketchbook for some reason. Sometimes I do go back and create them. It might be years later that I'll start something and then decide to finish it. It might be several years later.

Little Thunder: Do you like to work during the day or at night? Again, it may depend.

Rutherford: It just depends. I'm not really a morning person. I tend to start working--I usually come into the studio around noon, maybe eleven. Sometimes I work at home. If I have to work on my computer, if I need WiFi, I come here. I 71:00don't have internet at home. I'm able to use the WiFi here. I'll work on all those things that take up time, other than creating. I like working into the evening. I don't like to stay here late at night by myself. It's kind of creepy in here. We hear things, and things move around. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, looking back on your career so far, what's been a fork in the road or a kind of turning-point moment?

Rutherford: Meeting Joel Queen was one of the turning points, and I think losing my job and getting the studio here has been a big one. The first big one was meeting Bill Glass and getting started on that Chattanooga project. I think that's really exciting to go back and visit that and see the artwork that we created.

Little Thunder: Have you been back a couple times?

Rutherford: A couple of times.

Little Thunder: That's great. What's been one of the low points in your career so far?

Rutherford: Going to the shows where you don't sell anything, sometimes it seems like everything just goes wrong. Maybe it rains, or you don't win anything, you don't sell anything. Then you're out hundreds of dollars and have that long drive home. That's been pretty bad. I guess around 2010 when I left the Chief's office and took that other job, it just killed my creativity. There for two and a half years, I didn't do any work to speak of. I just didn't have time. I was so stressed, I didn't have any creative energy. It was really nice after I lost my job to get that back. It took a while. It was like I had to learn to work 73:00with clay again.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points?

Rutherford: Probably the two Best of Divisions at Eiteljorg. (Laughter) Actually, I won three Best of Divisions this year, so it has been a good thing to have this studio.

Little Thunder: The third one was--

Rutherford: The Southeast SEASAM, the Chickasaw Nation Southeastern Art Show and Market.

Little Thunder: Pottery, right?

Rutherford: No, the feather cape again. The feather cape has won two Best of Divisions.

Little Thunder: Is there anything we've forgotten to talk about or anything you'd like to add before we look at your work?

Rutherford: No, not really. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Okay, well, we're going to take a look at your pottery, your cape, and some of your beadwork.

Rutherford: Okay.

Little Thunder: All right, so this is one of your topper feather capes.

Rutherford: Yeah, this one was a longer length than the historic ones. The men wore very long feathered capes or mantles, historically. This one was actually--I made that for Orlando Dugi. He wanted to wear it on the runway. I'm not sure if he's going to take it. I'm not real happy with the fit. This is goose feathers on a hand-tied net base, and then I've added some of the turkey breast feathers around the top. I wanted them to stand up a little bit like a little collar.

Little Thunder: Yeah, you can see the turkey feathers standing up.

Rutherford: They've got the shiny copper color on--I really like that iridescence and contrast. My goose feathers are turned upside down. That's the underside that shows. The underside is more shiny, and it has that luster on it.

Little Thunder: Yeah, they pick up and reflect the light just beautifully. Cool. 75:00So talk about your beaded bag a little bit.

Rutherford: That's beaded on eighteenth-century wool, trade wool, and glass seed beads. It's got a calico lining. The white flower, I was kind of inspired by a Cherokee rose. It's got the leaves with the lighter green accent. A lot of the Cherokee beadwork was outlined in white. Shortly after 1800s, Cherokee women would have carried those. The clothing style from that time period--before that, women wore the full petticoats that had the slits in the side. You wore your pockets on a string around your waist. They weren't attached to your skirt. When the style changed, the silhouette became slimmer and the waistline higher. You 76:00no longer could wear your pockets under your skirt, so they started carrying the little purses.

Little Thunder: And you've got one of your twined bags next to it, interesting.

Rutherford: Yeah.

Little Thunder: Okay, what can you tell us about this pot?

Rutherford: That pot, the shape would have been used as a cooking pot. It has an 77:00incised design. I just free-handed, started carving. The rim of it, the applique rim strip, that is unique to Cherokee pots. Actually, I'm finding that some of the Southwest tribes have that type of applique, but archaeologists that specialize in the Southeast pottery refer to that as a Cherokee rim. It's just an applique strip that has a notched edge. It kind of helps to press it into the clay when it's damp. It would've been used for a cooking pot.

Little Thunder: Did you give it a title? Do you title your pottery sometimes?

Rutherford: If I enter a show I do because a lot of times I think the title helps. I still think that one of my pots, (it was called Still the Waters Run after Angie Debo's book) I still think that title helped it win prizes. I won, like, four blue ribbons on that pot, and someone bought it and spoiled my little fun. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I'm going to try to zoom in on a couple of your turtles here, and fish. Tell us a little bit about those.

Rutherford: Those turtles are just a little fun thing that I enjoy doing. The one on the back left is stamped with one of my pottery paddles. The one in front of that with the spirals, that's from a little shell. It was actually an earring someone gave me made out of a shell. I immediately made it a pottery stamp.

Little Thunder: Made a great design.

Rutherford: Some of the others are just free-hand, incised designs.

Little Thunder: You can see a little bit of the multicolored iridescence.

Rutherford: Yeah, I fire those directly in the coals, so they really get the hottest part of the fire. They're against those coals longer, probably, and they get more vivid coloring.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you very much for your time today, Lisa.

Rutherford: You're welcome. This was fun.

------- End of interview -------