Oral history interview with Chase Kahwinhut Earles

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Wednesday, September 25. I'm interviewing Chase Kahwinhut Earles for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Chase's home in Ada, Oklahoma. Chase, you just recently got back from your day job at Chickasaw Nation. You have a BFA degree in computer design and animation, yet you ended up studying a very sophisticated but low-tech art form, Caddo pottery. You're one of two professional Caddo potters, the other being Jeri Redcorn, your mentor. You quickly melded the knowledge she passed on to you about this ancient art form with a very contemporary aesthetic. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Earles: Thank you.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Earles: I was born in Oklahoma City and grew up there. Went there all the way up until college, northwest side. Went to PC [Putnam City] North. Then moved off when I went off to college, off to Savannah, Georgia, to go to SCAD [Savannah College of Art and Design].

Little Thunder: What did your father do for a living?

Earles: He worked for the Indian Health Service. He worked there for, I think, twenty, maybe thirty years. He was there, well, since I was born, so, yeah, thirty-something years. He only retired recently, probably a couple years ago. Maybe that was it, but he worked there the whole time. He started out in the Hinton office and moved up and moved to Oklahoma City.

Little Thunder: What about your mother?

Earles: She's an accountant. That's what she's done, I think, the whole time. She takes on clients and works out of the house. She's still working, actually.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Earles: I was closer to my father's side.

Little Thunder: Is that your Caddo side?

Earles: Yes. I hung out with my mother's side of the family (my grandmother, Nana) growing up, occasionally. I didn't get to see her as often, and they were separated. I didn't see my mother's father very much at all. As far as my father's side, yeah, my grandmother was a Caddo, Joyce. My grandfather, Papaw, Cecil was his name, and they lived in El Reno. I'd go out there almost every weekend and visit them. I loved going out there quite a bit. They lived out in the country on a couple of acres. I just did all kinds of stuff out there. It was on a farm. I grew up on a farm a little bit and in the city at the same time. (Laughter) It was cool. I liked it.

Little Thunder: What was your first memory of making art?

Earles: It was in kindergarten, actually. I remember it very well. They brought us our own pieces of paper, and they were like, "Just draw something." We were really little. I remember I drew this guy walking through the desert with the sun sweltering, with these buzzards and everything, and it was really detailed. I think the teacher came and was like, "Well, okay! You're going to draw." (Laughs) They took me to the art room. We didn't even have art class yet in kindergarten. She was showing the teachers, "Look at what he drew!" They had, like, a little phone directory for kids back then, and so they put the artwork in the phone directory. I remember that.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of seeing Native art?

Earles: Well, there was a lot of Native artwork in our house and my grandparents' house, paintings and some photography, even, so I saw it growing up, as soon as I could understand what I was seeing. My great-aunt, Doris Tonemah, she had lots and lots of Native art. She was very involved with the Kiowas and everything, so every time we'd go over to her house, there was tons of paintings by all kinds of people, famous now.

Little Thunder: We talked about the fact that there aren't a lot of Caddo speakers. I'm wondering how much you got to be around the language growing up.

Earles: Not very much at all. We lived in the city after my dad moved out of Hinton, out of the Anadarko area. He wasn't connected to it anymore. My grandmother was kind of my only connection to it. I remember when we'd go over to her house, she'd be trying to teach us how to count. She's like, "Wísts'i', bít, daháw'." We're like, "We don't know what you're saying." (Laughs) She started with the basics, but I know that it was rough. She hadn't spoken it to anyone in a long time. Language is use it or lose it a lot of times, so I know she just knew the basics at that point. She tried to teach us a little bit. After that, I wasn't exposed to it again, literally, until I started doing pottery again.

Little Thunder: Were you pretty involved with the Indian community in Oklahoma City?

Earles: No, not really. Like I said, they did a good number on my dad and his family, so they got assimilated and were moved away from the allotments, I wouldn't say young, but eventually moved away. There was animosity, I think, within the tribe of him not marrying another Caddo. Back then, I know there was some--he would try to go to dances with my mother, and they weren't very accepting of that, so he didn't go anymore.

I grew up in the city just like everyone else. I was exposed to it when I'd go to my grandparents' house. They would try to get me to go to dances every once in a while, but they understood the situation. I think my parents didn't really want me to. My sister, half-sister, even went when she was young. I think she was even a princess once. It was kind of a pull between them, so most of the time I was in the city.

Little Thunder: That lack of acceptance had to do with the fact that she was non-Indian, or--

Earles: My sister?

Little Thunder: No, your mom.

Earles: Yes, my mother. It's because she wasn't Indian, wasn't Caddo. It was rough for back then, I think. She got turned off because of the nastiness, and so she didn't want to go back. Because of that, my father was upset with the tribe for it and his people, our people, about it. It's a lot different now, completely. There was a lot of racism, too. I can't speak for my father, but I feel like sometimes it's his way of trying to get away from the racism that he faced.

Little Thunder: So you're in primary school, and your teacher has already discovered you have a talent for drawing. Did you get to work with any three-dimensional media in elementary school?

Earles: A tiny bit, a little bit. In elementary school, they'd give us clay. We'd just play with store-bought clay and stuff. It was fun, but I don't think it was any different from any other kid's experience that way. Like, I wasn't making traditional Caddo pottery right out of the gate, there. (Laughter) It was fun. I mostly did paintings and drawings and stuff like that. I continued doing that up through college. I thought that's what I was going to do.

Little Thunder: When did you start to think of yourself as an artist?

Earles: I think towards the end of my high school--well, yeah. I think toward the end of my high school. I was starting to win awards as an artist for painting and stuff like that. College was coming up, so they were like, "Are you going to a traditional school, or are you going to art school?" I definitely wanted to go to art school. I think I definitely considered myself an artist at that point. I had these grand plans of being a painter and all that kind of stuff, but college has a way of changing that. (Laughs) I mostly did paintings and drawings. I have, still, a lot of it. It's funny because now all my stuff that I have is all from when I was younger. I've not done anything recent.

Little Thunder: You went, like you said, to the Savannah School of Art and Design. How did you choose that school?

Earles: My dad was very deliberate about his process. We interviewed a bunch of schools: Parsons in New York, and there's Otis [College of Art and Design] and UCLA out in California. There's a bunch of art schools out there that are really good. There was, I think, Kansas City Art Institute, and then this one. I think each one of them actually awarded me, the ones we applied to, awarded me scholarships to go. They're all so very expensive, I think it really came down to Kansas City or SCAD as far as what we could handle price-wise.

I think my parents would have stretched, but SCAD had a huge computer art program, and they were really well known for it at the time. This was around '95. I was kind of interested in it. I still did painting and stuff, but I heard that their multimedia and everything was really good there. I think that's why I ultimately decided to go there. I wasn't sure what exactly I was going to be doing. I ended up going into computer art and animation. I got interested in computers and all that kind of stuff while I was there. All my friends were computer whizzes, so that's what interested me.

I thought I was going to go there and learn all about animation. We studied Disney and all of the big animation houses at the time. That's where we applied when we graduated. I did get accepted into some computer art places when I graduated but ended up turning them all down and moving back to Oklahoma and went into web design, which is random. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Did you get any more art instruction at SCAD?

Earles: Yeah, definitely. I definitely did. I never actually went in to do a painting major, so I didn't get any more other than foundation, which was color theory and stuff like that. There was a 3-D class. They never even touched clay. It was all, like, hand-built fabrication and stuff like that. I got more clay and pottery stuff in high school with our art teacher than any college. They teach you about the foundation, the principles of design and art, and all that kind of stuff, and art history. There was more drawing and painting but never went into it. I started going a different direction from painting and went into computer art.

Little Thunder: You had had experience handling clay in high school.

Earles: Yes, I did.

Little Thunder: Did you connect with it?

Earles: You know, I really never did. Well, I say that. I never thought about it, I guess. It was just always a project that was due. They'd be like, "You can make a pot or a pinch pot," or something like that, and I'd make one. One time, though, I did ask the teacher for three bags of clay, which is like seventy-five pounds of clay, and I built a huge sculpture of an alien or something like that. It's actually out in the yard. It's so big we don't know what to do with it. I think that one time I really was interested. It was so difficult to get it fired. We had to take it to Norman to this big kiln that they have. It's a walk-in kiln. They fired it. It was all very contemporary stuff. That was it.

Little Thunder: Sounds interesting. So you moved back to Oklahoma, and then what happens? You haven't gotten a job yet?

Earles: Yeah. Getting a job out of college is always quite an experience. It led me back to Oklahoma City. My girlfriend at the time didn't follow me back, so it was kind of heartbreaking, but I was with the family again and not away from home. I had a job here not too long, doing web design downtown. It was a good job. I mean, it was decent. It was a really good first job. I guess at that point, art went by the wayside. I really was about making a living, making a career. I was thinking, "Well, I'll be some really good designer, web designer." I wanted to go into graphic design and all that kind of stuff. I think that's what I was concentrating on. I ended up looking for jobs and got a job back in Atlanta, and moved back out to Atlanta at a really big nice startup company, making good money.

Again, art was really not there anymore. I was doing design. I think all my creative effort had to go into my job. They expect you to flip it on like a light switch, so when you get home, you don't really have any creativity anymore. It's just like, "I just want to watch TV," or something. (Laughs) It drained me, so I didn't really have time for anything else. After work, you just go on the weekends and party. (Laughs) That was about it, and that was Atlanta. It was a big city and a design job. I thought that was cool for a while. (Laughs)

That startup, that was back when the Internet bubble blew up, so that startup company went under. I got a job back in Oklahoma in Norman. I worked for OU doing their IT and web design for their IT department. I worked there for a while. I liked being back in Oklahoma with the family again. The job was pretty good, working there at OU. I had plans on maybe even trying to get my master's while I was there, in art. I was gearing up to do that. Kind of wish I would've stayed. Think I could've done it. My friend called from Atlanta and was like, "Got a great new job back out here in Atlanta for you." I was young, so I was like, "Let's go." Moved back out to Atlanta again and worked out there. It was still the same thing the whole time. I saw art. I never did any. I never painted.

Little Thunder: You went to museums, etcetera.

Earles: Yeah, there's a nice museum there in Atlanta, the High or something. I saw it, and I thought--I was interested. I just never did it. It was still creative nine-to-five, forty-hour weeks. That drains you. That was where all my creativity went: work.

Little Thunder: So how did you meet Jeri Redcorn?

Earles: Well, to get to that point, I finally moved back here again because I wanted to this time. I'd grown up a bit, and I was done partying and trying to live in the big city. (Laughs) I actually ended up not liking Atlanta very much at all. It's just too big and crazy and crowded and nasty. That's just my opinion. There was a long time before when I got back here and when I met Jeri. I think I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I think at that point, I knew I wanted to do art. I met my wife when I came back here. We started going on vacations like I used to do when I was young, so it was really cool.

Little Thunder: In state or out of state?

Earles: Out of state. When I was growing up, (I can't remember) I think starting at age three or four, my parents would take us on vacation to the Southwest, to Santa Fe, to Albuquerque, Colorado and all that kind of stuff every year for long vacations, two weeks or more. We'd go to all the art shows and go see all the artwork, and the pueblo ruins, and all that stuff. I really grew up to love that and love the Southwest and all its art and everything. I love the Pueblo pottery. I think that was one of the big things I really liked. I saw paintings and sculptures, but I always really liked the pottery.

Then seeing that pottery in the ruins and in the museums, the ancient stuff, which I think I really connected with that when I was growing up, but I never did anything with it. So when I started going on vacation and traveling again with my wife, we went back to the same places, and she got to see it for the first time. It was kind of new again, and I got really interested in it again, in the pottery and the art. I was like, "Hey, I can do this. I want to do art again." It inspired me because it was like showing her all the stuff I had learned when I was growing up. It was inspiring. I guess it moved me to do something with art. At first, I was like, "Okay, so I'm going to make Pueblo pottery," because that's the kind of stuff I liked. It was beautiful. It's awesome, but I never did because I'm not Pueblo. (Laughs) That was important to me.

I planned on--I went and bought clay. "I'm going to make a Pueblo pot," and all this kind of stuff. I had really researched it. That's how I am. If I'm going to do something, I really look into it. I figured out how to do it, but I never did. I think it just really bothered me because I'm not Pueblo. I'm not a Pueblo Indian. I'm not San Ildefonso or Santa Clara, and so making that pottery would be fake, I think. I think it really got to me because I really wanted to do artwork, and that's what was inspiring me. I couldn't bring myself to make that particular type of artwork. It was really important to me, so much so, I was like, "Well, I've got to hope that Caddos did pottery." (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That really went through your mind?

Earles: Yeah! It did. It was like, "I'm Caddo, and I hope we have a pottery tradition," which is hilarious now because, yes, we quite do have a pottery tradition. That is what pushed me to look back into my tribe and maybe try to connect again. That's when I found Jeri Redcorn and the stuff that she had started to revive, our pottery tradition.

Little Thunder: Do you remember your first meeting?

Earles: Yeah, I do. I emailed her first. I emailed her this long email, like, "Hi, I'm Chase. I want to do this. It's really inspired me, and I want to learn." She was really receptive to it. It was interesting because she had just talked to my mom recently. We had no idea because she was really into genealogy. My Aunt Doris was a huge genealogist for the tribe, so they were talking, exchanging notes and stuff on our families. She's like, "I think I just talked to your mom." I was like, "What?! What is this?" It was crazy. She said, "I'm coming down to Ada for SEASAM [Southeastern Art Show and Market]," the Chickasaw art contest, like the next day. She was like, "Why don't we go to lunch?" That's when I met her the first time. It was really cool. We got to talk for a long time. I think we had a two- or three-hour lunch, something like that.

Little Thunder: So you took a class from her?

Earles: Yeah, sort of. I guess you'd call it that. It wasn't anything formal at all. I asked her, "I'd like to learn." She said, "Just come out to my house and I'll start you. I'll show you. We'll start from the beginning." I'm trying to remember. We just started by learning how to form the pots, how she does it, from her hands. There's no wheel or anything like that. It's all hand-built. It's a slow process. You've got to form it and let it set up and dry a little bit and continue. I learned how she forms her pots and everything.

It was a little time longer (I can't remember how long) she had me back out to show me how she fires her pots in a barrel and everything. I got to learn how she did stuff, and it propelled me in a direction. I went to the store, I got clay, and I started forming it. I was wanting to fire and everything like that, but I started, then, looking and researching more, too. I knew that she knew quite a lot, but I started getting involved with, actually, the history of the pottery, essentially, but it drug me into the history of the tribe. Having to learn the pottery, the old tradition, really I learned the entire history of the tribe, I think, at that point. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Well, and you're careful in your brochure to explain the difference between Mississippian culture, which a lot of Southeastern artists draw upon, and Caddoan culture. Do you want to explain why it's so important as a potter?

Earles: Yeah, it is. It goes back to me not making Pueblo pottery. Well, it's two-fold. The main thing is, I didn't make Pueblo pottery because ultimately I'd be copying it. It would be knockoffs, is how I felt about it. It wouldn't be authentic, or it wouldn't be real. That was really important for me. That's important because unlike the Southwest Pueblo's pottery, the Southeast doesn't have a lot of, it's not as mature now as the Southwest is, as far as its understanding. There's reasons for that. I understand that.

There's a lot of upheaval, so it is hard for tribes to know what is exactly their history. I understand that, too. We were all mound builders in the Southeast, and we did all share some of the Mississippian culture a little bit. Archaeologists call it, like, a Southeastern ceremonial cult or something like that. We shared some of that ourselves, certainly, around Spiro, but the main difference for me specifically is the pottery was very distinctly Caddo, period. There is no overlap. You can look at a pot and immediately say it is Caddo.

I think a lot of people, when they first see the stuff, don't know that. I can understand. When I first saw it, I didn't know what was what, either. It takes some time, given especially that Caddo pottery is so prolific. There's probably more variations and types of Caddo pottery than there is every Pueblo put together, so it's hard to say. I can completely understand if some tribe artists look at Choctaw, or Chickasaw, or Creek, or Muscogee, or Seminole or whatever pottery and say, "Well, we were all mound builders. We're all from the Southeast," and then they copy Caddo pottery. I don't agree with that at all. Actually, it upsets me quite a bit.

I think they're not either researching their own history enough or--I don't think it's so much that as they could research their history and it still be ambiguous, I think, sometimes. It's sad sometimes, but when someone comes to them and tells them, "Look, this is very specifically Caddo," they argue with it. They don't accept it and understand it when there's just an elephant-sized room of facts telling them it's definitely Caddo. It's from our homeland. This is all found west of the Mississippi. There was no other tribes living on that side that was doing that pottery.

I wish that a lot of Southeastern potters that claim to be making Southeastern pottery would look into their own history and understand what is very distinctly Caddo. It's also important to me, though, that people understand that Caddos, they had a very distinct and huge culture separate of the Mississippian side. Like I said, most of the Mississippian cultures were east of the Mississippi. We were probably the biggest tribe west of the Mississippi until you got to the Pueblos. And we were similar to the Pueblos in that we had a bunch of confederate states, too. There were a bunch of different little home areas that were allies, and each one of them had a little bit different culture and pottery. It was very distinct, I think, from a lot of the Southeastern tribes, and it was a huge tribe. That's something a lot of people don't understand, how huge of a tribe it was and how long they'd been there, so it's very important to me to distinguish it from Mississippian.

Little Thunder: Did you apply for any fellowships or research grants to investigate? Like you said, there are so many different shapes of Caddo pots. It's wonderful.

Earles: Yeah, it's overwhelming. No, I didn't know anything about it. I think I started--I dove in head first, researching the stuff on my own.

Little Thunder: Books and all that.

Earles: Oh, yeah. I have a bibliography on my website of tons of books that I've read about it, ranging from layman's books to detailed archaeological books about layers and everything, which I didn't half understand myself, but I read it. (Laughter) There's tidbits in all the books about our history. I didn't know a lot about it until I talked to Jeri quite a bit about it, and other archaeologists. They're like, "There's grants and stuff," but I'm not a grant-writer or anything. I didn't know what there might be to research that stuff out there, so I never really messed with it.

Little Thunder: What was the first pottery show that you did?

Earles: The first one was SEASAM, the Chickasaw Southeastern Art Show and Market because Jeri was there for that time, and so she told me about it. I'm like, "I'm going to do that next year." I was hoping I could get something in. I made a couple little pots and entered them. They were definitely some of my very beginning pots. They were store-bought clay and kiln-fired. They were hand-built traditional and everything and carved and designed, but--

Little Thunder: Did they have a high-gloss on them, kind of burnish?

Earles: Yeah, very high burnish.

Little Thunder: You were already doing that.

Earles: Yeah, it didn't take me very long. I started with some hand pinch pots. They were about this big. I think my next pot I did was already like this big. I picked it up quickly, but I knew a little bit about clay from high school, although it had been how many years since then that I'd never touched it again. I had a little bit of an idea how to work, but I was familiar with that clay, that contemporary clay. I knew. I started doing it that way.

I think SEASAM was the first one. Then I entered into Red Earth. After I did those a couple of times, I applied for SWAIA [Southwestern Association for Indian Arts], the Indian Market in Santa Fe. I didn't know it was hard to get into. (Laughter) I just applied, and the first year I got in right away. I told friends about it, and they were like, "You know that's hard to get into?" (Laughs) I was like, "Oh, I didn't know that." That was cool because it was a validation of my artwork, but I wasn't sure. SEASAM is a really small show. I think Red Earth, they don't have a lot of potters, so I figured they just wanted me in there. The competition is different in SWAIA, so it was kind of a validation, getting in.

Little Thunder: Were you working, also, at the time?

Earles: Oh, yeah, I'd been working this whole time.

Little Thunder: So you would work on weekends to prepare?

Earles: Yeah. At first it was, like, all the time after work. Barbie was thrilled. She's like, "You're always doing pottery!" I was kind of obsessed with it after I met Jeri and got into it, so all my free time I would do it. This was before Elizabeth was born, so I was really into it all the time. We were excited when we got to go to shows. It was fun, but, yeah, it was hard. I wanted more time, and I've thought about it a lot. It's hard working full-time and doing this on the side. I try to make it work, just the time I can. I wish I had more time for it. I think I could do a lot more. I have a lot of ideas and things that I want to research or experiment with, but I don't got much time, so I just do what I can. I go to these shows. I mark things up pretty high because I don't really want to sell it all real fast, you know?

Little Thunder: I was wondering how you knew how to price your work.

Earles: When I first started, it was just what Jeri--I looked at her stuff, and I was like, "Okay, I can't price it that high." It was really low, but then when I would sell so many that I didn't have enough for the next show, I was like, "Wait--." It wasn't more about selling the stuff as it was, really, starting to get out in the shows to educate people about the Caddo pottery culture. What a daunting task. It would take a lot of us a long time to explain everything.

People would come up to the booth and talk, and I'd just talk their ear off, whether they wanted to or not. They wouldn't end up buying anything, but they'd be like, "Man, I got educated by this Caddo over there." That was fun. It was more about if I had pots I could show people, so I would go through every type of Caddo typology that I could to make a variety of stuff. I wouldn't even scratch the surface, but at least I had something to show people.

Little Thunder: What was your first really important award, in your estimation?

Earles: It was at Red Earth. I won the Kathleen Everett Upshaw Award. It was my second year there.

Little Thunder: Do you want to explain?

Earles: Yeah, every show does their awards differently. It's not just First, Second, and Third. They usually have a Best of Show, but Red Earth has three Best of Shows. They have Best of Show, they have the President's Award, and the Kathleen Everett Upshaw Award. Those are like First, Second, and Third of the entire show, every category. They tried to explain to me a little bit about the story. She was a sponsor and donor and all this kind of other stuff. I've hammered to get more information about it, but that's as much as I could get from Red Earth at the time. I knew it was a good award to get. Being Third over show after my second time there, I think that was the big one that was like, "This is really good." I took that same pot (it was a really huge, like, two-foot pot) to Santa Fe that same year and won First Place my first year there.

Little Thunder: In contemporary pottery?

Earles: No, it was traditional. I think that was almost equal to the Red Earth award (Laughs) because I hear it's really hard to get First Place there, especially when SWAIA was built off of pottery, as far as what the show is about. When I saw all the pottery there--I remember going in with my pot. They wanted me to carry it. I set it there amongst the other pottery, and it was, like, tables [of pottery]. I was like, "Well, this was fun while it lasted. At least I'm here." I didn't even go to the awards ceremony or anything because, I mean, it's really like--. I think I'd been doing it for only three years at that point.

Little Thunder: What year was it?

Earles: I think it was 2012. It was last year. Not this year's but last year's. Yeah, 2012. I'd been doing it for three years at that point. I remember going back to get my pot, and the guys were like, "You know you won." I'm like, "Won what?" They're like, "First place." (Laughs) I was like, "What?!" When I got my pot and went back to my booth, there was a line of people wanting to see it or asking about buying it. I think I sold it within the first couple hours of the show.

Little Thunder: Did you have the price on it you wanted?

Earles: Yeah, it was high, too. I was like, "Man, I should have made it higher." (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a great story. When did you start getting into--everything you do is hand-dug, right?

Earles: It is now.

Little Thunder: So when did you start going that way?

Earles: That's hard to say. When I first started with Jeri, she would tell me where to get my clay. She buys it at the store, and she fires it in an alternative kiln, which is a barrel fire. It's with wood. It's still a slow and low process like a kiln. It's protected. That's fine. I love that. I think it's great, and that's how I started doing mine. I don't know. I think it was because of growing up around and seeing all the traditional stuff, the Pueblo pottery, that was really traditional. I think I just, I wanted to do it that way.

There's not a single potter out there, Native potter, that wouldn't utter "Maria Martinez," you know, but it's true. I watched some of the stuff she did. I studied a lot of her stuff. Even in college, I did reports on her, not knowing that I would ever go into pottery. It's hilarious. I knew how traditional it was. I saw how they went and collected their own clay and processed it and fired it in their traditional way. I think it just became important to me at some point to do it the traditional way.

I like contemporary work. I think that I could still do contemporary pottery with Caddo influence as a line of pottery or something. I think working with the archaeologists and seeing the thousands of traditional pots in the galleries, I was kind of upset because doing Caddo pottery in a contemporary way starts making it look like Pueblo pottery. The more I learned about Caddo pottery, it's not the same in a lot of different ways. The more I talked to archaeologists about it, the more we saw other traditional potters do their thing, the more I wanted to fully research and rediscover not just our forms but how we actually made it. There was nobody that was going to be able to teach me that.

I had talked to some traditional potters, but they'd either adopted Pueblo methods to do Southeastern stuff, which is, like, the majority of all Southeastern potters. Only recently did I meet any Southeastern potters that really do it the Southeast way. Or they would do it with the contemporary way and call it traditional by double firing it or preheating it. There's ways. Or using the saggar method, which is like putting it in another pot or in a barrel, which is not quite the same.

Little Thunder: Because they could say it had a low fire.

Earles: Yeah, they could say it's traditional fire. There's nobody that's really going and checking people when they say they did it in a pit fire. There's not. Competitions, especially SWAIA, are very strict, and they ask you, "What did you do?" Some of the judges there, they know the difference when they see it, but people will say whatever. I wanted it to be real. That's the reason I started it. I wanted to be able to say, "This is traditional pottery," and mean it.

One day, I went out in the backyard and found some clay, albeit not really good clay. I'd been trying to pit fire the stuff I bought at the store for a long time, and it would all blow up. It's not impossible. It's very close to pit fire, really pit fire store-bought clay. You can do it, but it's not the same. I found some clay in my backyard and made a pot out of it. It was with some other contemporary clay pots. I put it in a pit fire, and everything blew up except for the one I made out of clay from the backyard. I was like, "Okay, I figured it out!" It kind of boomed from there. I started really learning more about different clays, and I talked to an archaeologist who knew quite a bit about the clays that were used in our ancient stuff. I would do so many experiments and blow up so many pots that I was learning along the way. Then it would get verified by something I would learn later. I'm like, "I wish I would have known that earlier." It happened that way a lot.

I'd make a pot with mussel shell. If I didn't fire the shell first, it would blow up. Then later, "You know you've got to fire that shell before you put it in the clay or else it will blow up." I'm like, "Yes, I know that now." (Laughs) Also, I read a lot about what was seen in the area as far as pottery making. That would kind of come back to me while I was making pottery, and it made a lot of sense. From there, it really did direct me, and it really did take a direction that became very uniquely Southeastern. We use hard woods. We do huge bonfires. It's not the same. Our pottery is, like, super thin. You can't do that with the clay that's used out in the Southwest at all.

I don't know if it's form-equals-function. It just worked out that way. There wasn't a million ways to go with it at all. It all just went in one direction. That's how I learned what I really feel is really the true Southeastern--I won't say just Caddo because I think a lot of the Southeastern tribes make clay the same way and even fire the same way and use some of the same materials. The form at the end is what I think is uniquely Caddo, and the thinness. I don't think any other tribe got quite as thin at pottery. It's like almost eggshell stuff.

Little Thunder: When did you start feeling confident enough to give workshops?

Earles: Let's see. I think it was only last year. I started getting asked a lot, "Do you teach this?" I barely felt comfortable with it, myself, but people were really coming to me a lot and asking, "Do you teach how to do pottery?" It was everybody. It wasn't just Caddos or Native Americans, either. I'm trying to remember the first time. It was the Museum of the Red River in Idabel. The owners there saw my stuff and noticed that I did it really traditional. That's what they wanted. They wanted to show how to make the clay, and show how to build the pots and how to fire them the real old way.

I think at the very same time, I was approached--that's what it was. At the very same time, I was approached by--Timothy Perttula's a big Texas archaeologist for Caddos and the Caddo homeland. He had a big project, and he was like, "We need a Caddo potter to make Caddo traditional pieces that we can study alongside the ancient pieces." He seemed pretty confident that I could do it. He even sent me the clay from the homeland area. He's like, "Would you use this clay?" He showed me which ones he made, so I replicated. That was replication for me. It wasn't creative and new, but it was just replicating some pots for that. I was like, "Okay, if that's what they want to look like, I can make them look like that, using materials that were given to me that I didn't even gather myself."

I felt more confident then in going to the museum and doing the classes and showing people how to pit fire. It really was the pit firing, I think, then that people were a lot interested in. They wanted to make pots, but when they're starting out and they're kind of falling apart, they're like, "Let's see a pit fire." (Laughter) I did the first one there at the Caddo headquarters in Binger. People really liked coming out for that. I think more people wanted to go, but we had to keep moving the dates because of weather. We still had a pretty good turnout. People really liked it.

Little Thunder: And you gave one at Santa Fe? Is that right?

Earles: In Santa Fe? No, not in Santa Fe. I did one here at ECU [East Central University] at the college at the end of last year. I taught a whole four-week class from start to finish. I brought the clay, but they had to process it. They had to use the clay they processed, and build it and burnish it. We actually took it out on the field and pit fired it and everything.

Little Thunder: Pottery's not quite as heavy as sculpture, but it's kind of a challenge to travel with it. What are some of the things you've learned?

Earles: Pack it well. (Laughs) It is. I've learned it would've been easier if I was just a painter, to travel. (Laughter) Yeah, when I first started, it was just going down the street to SEASAM or up to Red Earth. It wasn't that bad. I didn't have a lot of pots. After I started getting attached to some of my pots, I'd double wrap them and everything, huge. It'd fit in a box like this, and it'd be a little pot like that. It took up so much space. It took up a lot of space. I ended up having to get a trailer to move everything. If I wanted to carry a lot of pots, it wouldn't all fit in the truck.

Little Thunder: Do you do any shipping?

Earles: I have once. Actually, I have a couple of times. There was this woman that wanted to commission a bunch of my pots. There were four in a row she did, and I had to ship each one of those. I'd insure them before I shipped them and pack them really well. It was scary, but they always made it there okay. So far, so good.

Little Thunder: You also won First Place with a traditional dish, I guess, at Market this year. Is that right?

Earles: Yeah, both times. It was really cool. Last year, which was the first year I was in Santa Fe for Indian Market, they had a new category for Woodland pottery, traditional. They're really strict on their categories. If you did anything contemporary, you get lumped into a contemporary category. Their traditional categories are very specific: gathering the clay, hand-done, pit fired without any help, and stuff like that. They're also so specific, they get into the tribes, which I can understand because that's where that market's from.

I think that's why they tried to accommodate Southeastern tribes for the very first time by opening a Woodlands category, but it was fully traditional. It couldn't be contemporary or anything. That first one I went to, both years now, I've won First in that category for traditional Woodlands. It was funny when I was entering the work. One of the people that are doing the entrants for the work was like, "Woodlands? Where is that?" (Laughs) "How do we make sure he's Woodlands?" (Laughter) I was like, "I assure you. Do you want to sit here and do a little history lesson?" (Laughter) They were like, "Okay."

Little Thunder: Well, let's talk about your technique and process a little bit more, and materials.

Earles: Okay.

Little Thunder: What are some of the ingredients that you've discovered are good to temper the hand-dug clay?

Earles: Mussel shell. When I first started, I went outside and dug clay, and it didn't need to be tempered, but it wasn't a really good clay. It was limp. It would fall over. It wouldn't keep its form and everything. I started learning you need to use tempers in it. I used a little bit of sand at first because that's what I'd learned, and even grog, which is crushed up pottery shards. I thought that was really cool, learning about that. It was kind of like--it made a lot of sense. If you don't put temper in your pots, it's going to blow up. Then you use those blown-up pots and learn. Put them in your clay, and then it works, so grog works really well.

Actually did a little bit of bone, even, on those archaeological projects. One of the ancient things Caddos did was use quite a bit of bone in their tempers. Those all were okay, and they worked as far as the integrity of the pottery, but when I went to burnish them to make them shiny, that grog or that temper would show through and give pockmarks. It wasn't very smooth. Sometimes you could. There's methods to hide the temper in the clay and float it, but that presents some drawbacks, as well. In my readings, and seeing the pots I'd see at the Gilcrease or at the Sam Noble and stuff like that, there's quite a bit of shell clay. At first, I just went to Hobby Lobby and bought shells or whatever and tried to use that because, really, I had nobody telling me anything about the old stuff or how to do it. Of course, that didn't work. They would blow up because the shell wasn't fired.

I learned you've got to burn the shell. It crushes up right in your hand into little flakes. That clay worked really well. It was really nice to work with. It held its shape. You were able to make the walls super thin and still hold up, and then after they dried, they could be burnished. That shell's really soft, so it'd give way and allow you to burnish it really shiny, which competitions like. (Laughs) That was something I always battled with. When you go to shows, especially in the Southwest, they're used to the flawlessly shiny Pueblo pottery, which is approaching more contemporary than traditional because if you see any ancient pottery, it's not shiny. That's a new consumer/collector thing. Everybody wants shiny pottery, so it's kind of become a standard. It's hard to live up to and be realistic.

Caddo pottery was shiny, which it's kind of hard to believe that they did that back then. It was more for function to keep it waterproof than it was for, obviously, going to shows and selling. Then in late Caddo pottery, they were starting to trade it to settlers and Colonial to trade for goods. They started making it more shiny and more showy, but it afforded them quite a bit, and it got traded that way all across this country. There's tons of Caddo pottery in museums, even overseas. There's quite a bit of Caddo pottery in Spain, and England, and France, and Germany, even, because they were traded.

So the mussel shell--I got off on a tangent, there. (Laughs) The mussel shell ended up being the best that I've used. Plus, it really stood out as saying, "This is Southeastern." You don't see that in any other tribe's pottery. It's a very Southeastern thing. The fact that I couldn't hide it all the way actually worked out because people will see the pottery and be like, "What is that in the clay? Is that stone, or what is it?" They're always asking what it is because it is so unique. I think it works really well for Southeastern pottery.

Little Thunder: Okay, your pottery comes in, looks like, about four shades that I've seen, the traditional Caddo pottery, I guess. There's a red, a brown, kind of a black, and a kind of white. I know sometimes that's a function of the clay but sometimes also a function of what you put into the pit fire?

Earles: Yeah. The white stuff to have is really more contemporary. I know there's quite a bit of white Pueblo stuff, but there really isn't--I can't say there's not any white Caddo pottery, but it's so rare I don't think it was normal. They were probably experimenting. We did a lot of experimentation back then. We really did. Mostly, the clays that we use are coming from rivers.

River clay is what we call alluvial clay, meaning that it's come down from the mountains and eroded and mixed with all kinds of other deposit sedimentary clay and materials. It's a lot different from highlands clay, which is what Pueblos use, because it is coming straight off the mountains and eroding. It's like a primary. Alluvial clay is like a secondary tertiary clay, so it has a bunch of melters in it. I'm getting real technical on you. (Laughter)

It makes a big difference because melters are things like iron and iron oxide, so when you fire the clay, it turns red. It also fires at a lower temperature. A lot of the Highlands clay--I learned a lot about Pueblo pottery first, quite a bit, and it helped me learn more about Caddo pottery when I started. The Pueblo's clay has a higher firing temperature because it's a Highlands clay. It's more like stoneware, like what you would use in plates and stuff like that. They don't quite fire that high. You can't without artificial means. It's a little softer, whereas this alluvial clay that we use, when it fires it turns red, mostly, or light buff, maybe, sometimes, which is like a light tan. It just depends on where you get it.

I know Alabama, across the other side of the Mississippi, you get a lot of variation. I think there's some variations of clays up in the Ouachita Mountains, but I've never used much of it. It fires at a lower temperature and solidifies to stone and becomes completely waterproof at a lower temperature. If we fired it without doing anything else to it on purpose, it would usually just turn a reddish with some black, spirally smoke marks on the bottom. The range from red on up to black has to do with the carbon when you're burning. There's terms like oxidation and reduction. An oxidation fire means you remove all of the burning materials away from the pot. It's so hot that it burns out all the carbon and turns its natural color of clay, which is red or buff. I think we cherished chocolate brown-colored pottery. There's a reason for that.

We didn't fire it all the way to black and smother it most of the time. We do have some stuff that is smothered to black, but it shows a lot of control to be able to get the brown colors and not fire it all the way because you can't smother it all the way. It's a lot easier than trying to get the chocolate brown colors. We also liked what's called fire clouds. That's where, like, a piece of wood or something would be sitting on the pottery, and where it was sitting there'd be marks. We really cherished that, and it gave a lot of character to the pottery. We like that, as opposed to the Pueblo potters who try--they throw their pots away if they get a fire cloud.

Little Thunder: How about the burnish, your glossy finish?

Earles: Oh, the fun part. Figuring out how to burnish, for each potter, is really hard. It has to do with the materials you use to burnish, and figuring out when the pot is ready. When I first started, I'd burnish it when it was still a little wet, so you'd lose the burnish. I'd burnish it with a spoon because I didn't have anything else. Over time, I'd find rocks that were really smooth in the rivers or whatever, or I'd go looking for clay. I found a few that I use and waited until it's really all dry. Nowadays, I use a homemade slip, using the clay that I dug. It has to be a lot finer and thinner, so it's a pain to process. You let it sit and sift it off the top. When you brush that on, it allows finer particles to be on the outside of the pot. It's a little easier to burnish that way.

Nowadays, I actually even double-burnish. I'll do the once over on a pot, and I press pretty hard. This alluvial clay with the shell is not quite as soft and perfect as Pueblo clay, so you get a lot of nicks and chunks and stuff like that. Then I go back with the secondary burnish and do it all over again. That's why my wrists are killing me. I'm going to have wrist problems when I get older for sure. I think I already do.

Little Thunder: I noticed that you give titles to your pots, and some of those titles are from the Caddo language.

Earles: Yeah. Most of them are from the Caddo language. I grew up doing paintings where you give titles to paintings. I know most potters don't actually title their pieces, but with as much work that can go into one, which is more work than I think I ever put into any painting, just my personal experience, it's so involved that I can't just let one go as if it's nothing. It feels like a work of art. Ultimately they are to me, so I title them.

When I started, I was trying to learn the Caddo language. I thought it would be important to help me learn by titling these pieces with the Caddo language. I would learn each one of those words. Every pot I've ever made, I can certainly remember what the meaning of those words are. It has helped. Also, when I take it to shows that are learning about Southeastern cultures, it helps me teach them more about the Caddos.

Little Thunder: Right. I guess some of the forms are associated with clans, too.

Earles: Yeah. I think in the past, there was more knowledge about the clans and stuff like that, but nowadays, we've lost--. We know what they were, and we do know that the clans were handled maternally, through the mother's side of the family. We don't know which families belong to which ones, and we don't know which pottery types belong to which clans, although I think we know that each clan had a certain pottery type that they would make, and that's what they were charged with making or would prefer making. I don't know which one. You can tell how many different clans there might have been by so many different pottery types.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Earles: Well, usually if I have an idea, it's right in the morning or trying to go to sleep. I'll hop up and go write it down and try to flesh it out, or I might sketch it. I do have a sketchbook that I use and try to save it. I think I have, like, thirty or some ideas right now that I would like to work on. Some of them I think are really good. It's just a matter of getting to it. I have so little time nowadays between family and work that it's really like I can do only one really nice one a year. The rest of them, it's like I need to make enough inventory for the next [show]. I never, ever liked to just throw a pot together for the sake of having pottery, so they usually all end up being projects. The one that is a really good idea, I usually try to do once a year.

Little Thunder: For a competition piece.

Earles: Yeah. For competition, but, you know, there's a lot of motivation there for competitions now, although there is quite a bit of motivation to do stuff that teaches people about specifically Caddo stuff. For example, I'll try to do a tripod pot, which is really hard. It's a big project, but that shows the uniqueness of Caddo pottery to people without it being some big grand pot, which I've learned you have to take to competitions. You can't take little pots, even though they're nice. (Laughter)

I think it determines what kind of clay I'm going to use. I use different kinds. I do use mussel shell, mostly, but I sometimes do use volcanic ash, which provides a little bit smoother finish. Then I've got to figure out how much clay it's going to be. Before this year's Indian Market, I had one of those ideas, and I decided it was going to take eighty pounds of clay, which is a lot of traditional clay. I mean, a lot. It took me all spring to process all of that clay. I'd weigh it out and figure it out. Finally got eighty pounds and started working on it. Made a huge pot. It was like that wide and about that big.

It was really deeply carved, which I'd never done before, so it was kind of scary, and it was an experiment on top of being so much work! It was really thick because it was carved really deep. Usually all the pottery I do is really thin, so it was different. It was a heavy pot. I went out and pit fired it. It actually lasted quite a while before the bottom just exploded out from being so thick with moisture and stuff. It had been in the pit fire for almost an hour already, and it still blew up. I think a lot of these ideas I get sometimes are still experiments regardless of experience, although I really feel like I've been not doing it very long.

Little Thunder: You do incised designs, but this was so different because it was so deeply carved?

Earles: Yeah, I would call it almost carved because it was so deep. You know, Santa Clara and Pueblo pottery, they really carve in deep, almost like they're doing relief sculptures, which honestly is not a Caddo thing. It was more of a very experimental pot, but all the carvings were very traditional Caddo spirals and stuff like that off of a Natchitoches design, or even Hodges. I mixed them together. The shape was very traditional Caddo. It was a carinated bowl. It was a mix of ideas. It was--

Little Thunder: Heartbreaking.

Earles: --yeah, it was heartbreaking, but it was like, "Okay, I learned." There's a reason why our pottery is really thin, because we have to stand up to those really, what I call, violent firings. They're really fast. I remember explaining at Indian Market how fast the firings actually go. A lot of people are like, "I can't believe it only takes an hour for the whole thing."

Little Thunder: Well, looking back on your young career so far, what's been a fork-in- the-road moment when you might have gone one way and you went another?

Earles: I don't know. I guess it might have been deciding to go fully traditional with my stuff. There was quite a struggle there. I reached out to a lot of people. I had no hesitation just calling or emailing famous people or whatever, potters, or people that have written books that are halfway across the country, just asking them about--. I started focusing on asking about what, really, traditional means, which is a very touchy subject, I found, very touchy. I asked the president of SWAIA. I asked the president of IACA [Indian Arts and Crafts Association]. I talked to even the Department of Interior's Indian Arts and Crafts Board about things.

Honestly, I found no one really has a straight answer, and I don't think there is, maybe, a straight answer nowadays. I think it's what a specific person or group of people determine to be traditional. I wanted to do it easy. "Let's go to the store and buy our clay and make pottery and call it traditional." Boy, life would be a lot easier. I don't have a serious problem with that. It's just I couldn't do it. It's me. It's my personal feeling. I wouldn't be able to do it and feel honest about it.

Also, when I started teaching, I felt like it was important to figure out the old way and to keep that alive. I saw a lot of people make pots, but there wasn't a lot of people making stuff in what I really call primitive way, now. Like I said, traditional is an interpretation. It's what is decided to be the tradition of the tribe over time. Our line of Caddo pottery was not completely unbroken. I know we did pottery up until about [1930]. We have some families talking about how their grandparents made it, still, but it didn't get passed along.

I'd say the majority of the tribe doesn't even remember pottery. It really can't be determined what's traditional. There's not been enough time from here, back, to say, "What is the tradition?" I think it's what we establish it to be, and for me I think it's very important to connect to the way we did it before it stopped, and that is by digging it ourselves and pit firing it in a real pit fire, touching the wood, being in the fire. That doesn't mean that's the only way it has to be. I just think that part's important. That's why I call it primitive traditional nowadays.

I started making posters and bringing them to shows, of me pit firing. The mood in my booth from the years I didn't until I did changed completely. People would come up and be like, "Oh, my goodness! Is that how you really fire your pots?" That changed things. Then it was like this stuff, my contemporary stuff I still had was like, eh. No one even looks at it anymore. (Laughter) "Which one is traditional?" But again, that's their interpretation. It's so important.

Little Thunder: What has been one of the high points?

Earles: So far, definitely winning at the Red Earth, that really large award. Like I said, even winning First Place at SWAIA was huge. That was probably one of the highest points, though, because I really didn't expect to win anything there. Then returning this year and actually winning again. First again was big. For me, especially at Indian Market, that's showing people Caddo pottery and really getting it. How better to be able to spread the tradition of Caddo pottery but by winning awards so that everybody sees it?

I've tried to connect with the tribe and show people, but it's just not quite as much reception. It shows the art world on a larger scale. For me, that's what was wonderful about winning those is people saw. I can't imagine how many people came up and were like, "This is so different! Is it Southeast or what?" So many people want to learn. That was huge for me. It was a perfect way to teach people about Caddo pottery.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Earles: Low points. I think it's rough sometimes talking to other Southeastern potters about their methods. It's hard to be passive about it. It's hard. Some days it's like I feel like I should just mind my own business, do my own thing, but ultimately you're working hard to educate people about what is different and what's unique. Those other potters are really, ultimately, destroying consumer confidence.

I think it's important that our tribe relearns its history, but I also, growing up, seeing Southwest potters live on their culture, making a living--I know we don't have as many members in the Caddo tribe, but somebody might want to do that and make a living of it. They certainly should be able to because it's just as rich and prolific as any Pueblo stuff. When they take their stuff to shows or sales or to market, and people are like, "Oh, that's Creek pottery. You don't know what you guys are talking about. Y'all are confused because I've seen this guy say it's Caddo and this guy--" then whoever is confusing people are really destroying that ability.

If you go in the Southwest and go, "Oh, I'm Caddo, but I'm making Pueblo pottery," they're going to get onto you. There's a lot of state laws that prevent that, too, and rightly so because it's protecting peoples' culture, their identity, and their livelihood. They don't care about that in the Southeast, most places. I hate it's a low point that some Native potters don't care or don't know and won't learn. Ultimately, people come in, and they'll be like, "Oh, that's pretty," and it's a Caddo pot, basically. They're like, "Well, it's this tribe," or whatever. It really confuses a lot of people in the Southeast about what's what. I think I've gotten into it with some artists before about it and their methods because when a potter comes and says, "Oh, I make traditional pottery," and they're not, they're not being honest about it, or they won't show anybody. I've talked to people, and they're like, "Well, I don't show anybody how I--." I'm like, "I wonder why. You're trying to keep it a secret, and it'll just die with you." You've got to show it, so I'm very open about it because it is what it is. I'm trying to teach people about it.

Little Thunder: Great, well, we're going to take a look at a few samples of your work now.

Earles: Okay.

Little Thunder: What is the title of this pot?

Earles: This one, I can't remember what I named it. What was it? (Laughs)

Little Thunder: It was your competition piece.

Earles: Yeah, I wish I could remember which one this was. You can't put me on the spot like that. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Sorry. (Laughter) Tell us just a bit about the design.

Earles: This one is a carinated Caddo pot, bowl actually. The style, I think, when they would type it, would be called Hodges. It has a bunch of the scrolls and the hatching. In Caddo pottery, most of that represents--there's a legend about the Flying Serpent. A lot of the graphics in our pottery have to do with that, and most all Caddo pottery has nonrepresentational designs on it. Most of our stuff doesn't have pictures of birds or people and anything like that. Very rarely. When it does, it is usually a snake. The designs are an abstraction over time. Whereas we might have started with representational stuff thousands of years ago, over time it became so abstract that it's hard to see sometimes. The spirals with the crosshatching represent the feathers. Then in the in-between space where the circles are represent the scales. There's some cosmology in there: sun, moon, and stars.

Little Thunder: That's beautiful. How about this pot?

Earles: This one is named Bah-hat-teno Bít, which means Red River II. I already had one that was called Red River. It's fully traditional. Went down to the Red River near Idabel to dig the clay, and it's mussel shell and tempered. It also has the Hodges-type abstracted designs with the snakes and cosmology mixed in. This is what we would consider a ceremonial water bottle. Most all the pottery that was really shiny and really finely done like that is ceremonial, when it comes to Caddo pottery.

Little Thunder: That one is gorgeous, too. Okay, how about this one?

Earles: This one I don't have a name for yet. I just finished it. It is a traditional effigy pot. The effigy is representational of what we would consider the water panther. I've seen quite a few examples of this, the panther, always done with the ribbing over the mouth there, so it's very, very unique to Caddo pottery. A lot of Southeastern, even Mississippian, tribes did quite a bit of effigy pottery but nothing quite like this. There's actually full-bodied effigy pots the Caddos did of this with the claws and tail and everything. This one is made with volcanic ash and Red River clay. It's burnished a little bit on the outside.

Little Thunder: Well, that is great. Thank you so much for your time, today.

Earles: Thank you.

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