Oral history interview with Traci Rabbit

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson Little-Thunder. Today is Friday, September 13, 2013. I'm interviewing Traci Rabbit in Pryor, Oklahoma, as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. As in the Southwest, we have our own tradition of artist families in Oklahoma, which includes you and your father, Bill Rabbit, who passed in April, 2012, and while your art and life have been deeply intertwined with your father's, you've always put your own unique stamp on your work, and you're continuing that family legacy. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Rabbit: You're welcome.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Rabbit: I was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, at the Claremore Indian Hospital. Grew up at Cherokee Nation housing addition located between Locust Grove and Pryor.

Little Thunder: And you have some siblings, right?

Rabbit: Yes, I have a younger sister. She's two years younger than I am, Kim 1:00Enyart, and she lives in Colcord [Oklahoma]. She's got two kids, and I have a younger brother, Billy Rabbit. He's eight years younger than I am. He's got six kids.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Rabbit: I also want to say I have one more brother, Stephen Proctor. He's actually a cousin, but he lived with us, and he's a brother. Relationship with my grandparents I would say was closer on my father's side because we lived closer to them and had a very good relationship with them. On my mother's side, it was good. It's a long, intertwined, different story, but, yeah, when we did see them, yeah.

Little Thunder: Were you the only one of the siblings, children, that was interested in art?

Rabbit: I think both my sister and brother are talented in their own right. My sister is a very talented writer. She loves to write poetry, but she's very 2:00involved--she's a nurse. My nephew has spina bifida, so her time is very limited, and her calling is a little bit different. My brother, he enjoys line drawing, more of a tattoo art style of work, but he's busy with six kids. I believe each of us had a talent. As far as I'm concerned, from a early age I was just always my dad's shadow. Whatever he was doing, I wanted to do, too.

Little Thunder: What were your opportunities like in Pryor to be around Cherokee language and culture?

Rabbit: Actually, from a very early age, (my mother could probably tell you the story better than I could) Cherokee was one of the first languages that I spoke. When my mom was working, my dad was working another job. Our babysitter, (that's what I still call her today at almost forty-four years old) that's all they 3:00spoke in the home. Of course, my dad's father was fluent in Cherokee. As you started school, you lose that, where now, Cherokee Nation, it's awesome because they have the immersion classes. Yeah, I've been around Cherokee language all my life and still know quite a few words. The more you're around it, as anybody knows, you start to remember. It's in the memory banks, for sure.

Little Thunder: Right. That's great that you had that experience. What is your first experience of seeing Native art?

Rabbit: Oh, wow. I think my first experience in really realizing that that's what I was looking at, I would have to say, first grade because I vividly remember painting a painting which I wish I had. My mom may have it somewhere. I won a First Place ribbon in first grade. I remember it was a couple of tipis, a snow scene, had snow and a sun all in the same painting, (Laughter) but I was 4:00aware of it then. Of course, my dad doing what he did, I was very fortunate to be around a lot, a lot, of well-known artists and exposed to not only his work but traveling with them. I just can't say how blessed I was. I could go on and on about all the different artists that I've known in my life and still know.

Little Thunder: What was your first experience of making art?

Rabbit: The very first experience I remember was I was laying in the floor at my grandmother's house. Like I say, we grew up in a housing addition, so all the aunts and uncles, we all lived in very close proximity. I remember drawing on the back of a brown paper bag, laying on the floor behind the door. I vividly 5:00remember it was winter, and I had, actually, there's a white buffalo. My grandma had a brown one, and I had that buffalo on the floor, and I'm laying there, sketching that buffalo. I couldn't tell you how old I was, but that's when I really first remember drawing was on that brown paper sack, yeah.

Little Thunder: What kinds of art experiences did you have in primary and secondary school?

Rabbit: Not a lot when it involved, unfortunately, in the Pryor school system. Just for a short time I went to Sapulpa, I think a half a year in the first grade, because my mom was in the hospital for a very long time, so Dad just moved the family up to Sapulpa. Unfortunately, in the Pryor school system, we didn't really have a lot. We had art classes per se, but it was mostly probably 6:00teachers volunteering their time. I hope it's better today, but not really a whole, whole lot. I experienced more art, I guess, in the home.

Little Thunder: Even when an artist's work sells well, you know, artists' children a lot of times don't have access to the same material things as their peers. I was wondering how aware you were, growing up, of the uncertainty of an artist's livelihood.

Rabbit: Of my dad's career? I would say--I graduated high school in 1987, and Dad starting showing his work at the Art Market, Linda Greever, in Tulsa, late ʼ80s, kind of started getting his stride really about the year I graduated. As 7:00far as growing up before that, I can't exactly remember the date when my mom encouraged him to just jump off the bridge. "It's sink or swim time." I never knew doing without anything, him and my mother, both, whatever they had to do, whatever they had to sell on the side. As a child you didn't know that, but as an adult you hear the stories, so I never really knew any different. They never let us kids know. We never did without, and I never felt like I lived in the projects per se, but as an adult you learn that that is where you lived. Sometimes kids can be cruel, but it makes your skin a little bit thicker, I guess.

As I graduated college, then I started realizing the reality of the financial 8:00impact of what he did. I had to do a paper, and my degree was in business administration. That's a whole other story, why I didn't take art at NSU [Northeastern State University]. Anyway, I decided to do it on artists as a profession, and I learned during my research that less than 1 percent of artists in the United States make their full-time living as an artist. I felt that my dad was a great example of that because my mom helped him. She wasn't working another job while he was doing full-time art. She helped him matting, framing, traveling, doing everything, so they were a very cohesive unit, and I learned that that was unusual. That's really when I would say the realization of what he 9:00did and how rare it was, that he stood on his own two feet, and that he had a awesome woman that backed him to do it. I know that they did without a lot so that we could have.

Little Thunder: Did you get involved with, sort of, the business of art? You were already then in college, I guess. As a teenager you didn't have much to do with the family business of art.

Rabbit: Oh, no, no. I started working at the studio when I was twelve. Yes.

Little Thunder: Oh, good. Tell me about that.

Rabbit: My dad's first studio was at the end of a convenience store. He rented the building, and it wasn't too far from Cherokee Heights. I remember vividly I was right at about twelve, about what my niece is now, and my first job was I had to learn how to stretch canvas. We would be out in front of the shop on the sidewalk, and he told me, he said, "Sis, now if you're going to work here--" because he always treated me like an employee. I guess being the oldest child, I 10:00was the experiment because my sister being the middle child, she seen me get in trouble, so she would sneak on by. My brother, eight years younger, they were just tired, (Laughs) and he figured it out real quick! I was the experiment child.

Anyway, I was on the sidewalk, and I remember this so clear. He said, "You know, if you're going to work down here--" and, like I said, he treated me so serious. "If you're going to work down here, you need to know every aspect of this business. You have to start from ground up, from cleaning the bathroom, sweeping the floor, and today we're stretching canvas." I remember because it was a big canvas, and he ran the staple gun. No, he had the pliers, and I did the staple gun. He would pull down the canvas, and I would do the stapling. Then he had the hammer, so my job was to staple. So I've been involved in that end of the business. Then I went to shipping and receiving, (Laughter) shipping of prints. Of course, my mom did the matting and framing at that time. Yeah, I've been 11:00involved in that business end for quite a while as an employer flunky, as Mom says. I was the gopher. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Did you enter some of the youth art competitions, as well?

Rabbit: Yes, the first one that I remember would have been first grade and the local things that you had at your school. Then I entered student competitions at the Five [Civilized] Tribes [Museum], won some awards there. I think I was out of high school or right out of high school when I entered the Cherokee Heritage Center in Tahlequah.

Little Thunder: Trail of Tears show, are you talking about?

Rabbit: I can't remember if it was Trail of Tears. I don't remember, honestly, which one it was. I just remember I won an award. I was over the top, and it was probably like Second or Third, but I mean I was just like, "Wow, yeah, that was great!" The best thing about that show that I remember (and I made a copy of the check) was that Wilma Mankiller was Chief at the time, and she got to go in and, 12:00of course, view the show, and she purchased my painting. I remember making a photocopy of that check (I have it somewhere) because that was the first big piece that I sold. Yeah, I was on the top of the world. I thought that was just the coolest thing because that was like getting a blue ribbon to me, having her, the first female chief, buying a piece of my art. I thought that was all right.

Little Thunder: Absolutely. You competed for the title of Miss Cherokee in 1988. What was that experience like?

Rabbit: Well, it was a good experience. It really was. I competed twice, me and a friend of mine, right out of high school. We both were down at NSU. The first year I think I got second. I'm not really for sure. The funny thing is, is for talent I did a painting, and that's kind of hard to convey up on the stage, you know. I did a painting that had a story behind it, and I remember, which I'll 13:00say no names, one of the ladies on the committee, she said, "That's just not going to work." The funny thing is, that's what I ended up doing as a career, but it was a great experience. I wanted the scholarship money. Then I got, I think it was Miss Congeniality or something. My sister later told me, she said "When they gave you that award, I was sitting in the audience with Mom and Dad." She goes, "They don't know her very well, do they?" (Laughs) Something a sister would say, it was so funny. It was a great experience, yeah.

Little Thunder: So do you feel like, if anything, it played into your art experience in any way?

Rabbit: The pageant part?

Little Thunder: Yes or the competition, that competition aspect, I guess, of public--

Rabbit: I think maybe it helped as far as getting out in the public. You know, that was another thing where my dad pushed me really hard. We would be driving 14:00down the road, and he would be interviewing me in the car pretending that--he said, "Okay, Sis," (and this would happen numerous times) "I'm going to be the buyer, and I'm going to start asking you questions." We would role play going down the highway. As far as getting up in front of the public and learning how to speak better, of course, you're an Okie, and the Okie starts to come out. I would say it opened horizons for me in the fact that I got to meet a lot of different people that work for the tribe, and those connections I still have today. The girl that actually won Miss Cherokee, we're still friends today. She went on to be Tribal Council, just a great a person. Yeah, it impacted me.

Little Thunder: You got your degree in business management, as you say, at NSU. Can you take us through your thinking on that?

Rabbit: I sure can. I started college when I was a senior in high school. I'd 15:00completed all of my courses, and they wouldn't let me graduate early. Now they do it all the time. They let me go ahead and start college courses my senior year, so I was going to RSU [Rogers State University]. By the time I started college, I was just seventeen. I was actually one of the youngest ones in my class when I graduated high school, and I had decided to go to NSU. It was close to home, and I was still traveling with Mom and Dad. They would fly me to, like, Santa Fe Indian Market, so I wanted to be close to home. I go down there. I enroll, 4.0 student from high school. First semester, they're coming at you. They want to know what your major is, so they're assigning you a --it's not a counselor but the person that signs your--

Little Thunder: Advisor?

Rabbit: Advisor. They assign me an advisor. Not knowing what I want to do, I said, "Well, I want to open an art gallery or something like that, I guess. Just put something down." I was assigned the advisor, the head of the art department down there at the time. I have to go and meet him, and he says, "So what do you want to do with the rest of your life," so on and so forth. I told him, I said, "Well, open an art gallery, work for my tribe. I'm really undecided. This is my first semester. Or I may be an artist one day. I have no idea." You know, just full of hope and dreams at that age. He said "An artist? What do you mean, an artist?" I said "Well, I like to paint, and I have sold a few pieces. Maybe I'll paint one day," you know, real naïve. He says "Well, that will never happen."

Little Thunder: He didn't know about your father.

Rabbit: Well, that's the rest of the story. He didn't realize how unafraid I was to stand up for myself, and I told him, "What do you mean it will never happen?" The conversation went downhill real fast. Even though I was seventeen, when it comes to certain subject matter or my dad's career, I can be very boisterous and know my facts on that. I said, "I can name you five artists right now that make their living off their art." He said "Well, who are they?" Boy, I named off bam, bam, bam, of course, my dad being the first one. He said "I've never heard of Bill Rabbit," and I said, "Well, I'm surprised."

Of course, I changed my major, literally, that day. I walked over to the book store and got the book of degrees, and I flipped through there. I thought, "Okay," I'm reading the different degrees, "I'm not a teacher. I'm not this. I'm not this. I really don't like science all that much." Business administration, 18:00computers, so I kind of start reading through there. Tax accounting. "Okay, I can do this. That would help out down at the shop, help my mom out." I mean, literally, this was all in one day. Bought that book, set out my plan, and every semester it'll have laid out what classes you should take.

I was my own advisor for the five years. I never darkened that man's doorway again. That's how I ended up doing business administration, all in one day. Come home that evening. I'm telling my mom and dad. He said "What was that guy's name?" I told him the name. He said "That's funny. I just met him a month ago. He hung my thirty-year retrospective show at the museum." I said, "He told me he didn't even know who you was." Anyway, that's how I decided what degree to get in college.

Little Thunder: That's an amazing story.

Rabbit: I had a plethora of artists that Dad was friends with, and so I had all these teachers that when I asked them a question, I felt privileged because they would share their information with me freely.

Little Thunder: Can you name maybe one or two artists that you particularly admired or that you could talk to in that way?

Rabbit: Oh, yeah. Ted Miller, Charles Pratt, at that time probably Ben Harjo, Ben Shoemaker, Bob Annesley. There were so many. I mean, you just think of that group that was at the Art Market, all of them, Troy Anderson, even to this day. Donald has been awesome since I lost my dad.

Little Thunder: Donald Vann.

Rabbit: Yeah. He's invited me down to his studio to sit with him and to learn. 20:00We had talked about doing, actually, some neat educational interviews with him while he's here. I wish I had done more of that with my dad. So, yeah, I can name a lot. A lot.

Little Thunder: Was one of your first gallery shows at the Art Market with your dad, one of the first shows you did in a gallery?

Rabbit: No, actually one that I recall in a gallery setting probably would have been Doris Littrell's gallery. Mom and Dad were off at a show. I was just newly married, and I went to Oklahoma City. I think I had maybe four pieces, and they were more of a woodland style of work. I remember being there by myself, (which 21:00me and Dad seemed like a team) but that would have been the very first one that I vividly remember.

Little Thunder: So, she was having a group show, and you brought in four pieces?

Rabbit: Yeah, she was having a group show. She asked me to be in it. Dad couldn't be there. I think he may have had some pieces there, (I don't remember) but they were out of state. That was probably the first that I can recall right now. After that, when I was in college, Dad, he said, "I want you to graduate. That is your priority right now." While I was in there, probably about my third year, I actually thought about working for the Bureau of Indian Affairs because I've always enjoyed keeping up with tribal politics and different things like that. I continued to paint, and he would take my work with him. After I graduated college, that was an accomplishment for my dad and my mom because I was the first one in my family to graduate college. He was very proud of me. He 22:00said "That little piece of paper, Sis, nobody can ever take away from you." As a matter of fact, I got it framed, and it's over there on the wall. I keep it down here.

Little Thunder: That is cool. What did you do, then, after graduation?

Rabbit: After graduation, that was about the time--honestly, everything works out for a reason. You come to a crossroads in your life. I had actually looked at several jobs through Cherokee Nation, actually through my connections to the Miss Cherokee pageant, talking to friends. It was about that time (this is 1993) that the IRS got ahold of my dad for about five years' worth of audits. It was meant to be to have my business degree. I stepped in immediately, helped my mom 23:00and dad line everything out. They had an accountant. He left the state, but it was a good learning experience. That was my jumping-off point, where you come to a crossroads, do this or this. I felt like this is what I was supposed to do.

I finished college, and then I was supposed to come back, and it all happened. It was quite the experience that has affected me. That experience has affected me through my life, very much so. That's when I started taking over the paperwork, the business end, the accounting of it. The very last year they were audited, (which at the time I didn't know you should take an attorney with you) me and Dad went by ourselves, took all of our records, and the audit was over in about thirty minutes. The lady says, "Why are you even here?" I had everything 24:00in line for them, every receipt.

Learned a lot. A lot of artists to this day, I'm surprised--we get hit up for donations for good causes all the time. Organizations will tell you you can write that off. Artists cannot. You can only write off the cost of that canvas. The IRS does not care about your talent or what it would sell in the real market. It was a good learning experience. That's when, I guess, my career as a accountant, part-time manager under my mom, and then still painted on the side.

Little Thunder: It's a great combination to have. What were some of the drawbacks of having a father who was a well-known artist?

Rabbit: There's not many, but the one I will say is--I would say there's only 25:00probably one. You inherit not only the friends but you inherit the enemies, even though you had nothing to do with the situation. I would say that's it.

Little Thunder: What were the benefits?

Rabbit: Oh, gosh, those are numerous. Getting to experience art on a different level than just the average child. Travel. Having a really cool art collection. My mom and dad were--not only did we get a piece of his art for birthdays and Christmas, they started our collection. I would say we started getting Doc Tate Nevaquaya originals probably about in junior high. Every year they made a concerted effort, and it depended on who we liked. Doc Tate was always one of my favorites, and Kelly Haney. Every year we would get another artist's piece of 26:00work. Getting to travel, seeing--

Little Thunder: For a present at Christmas?

Rabbit: For a Christmas present, yeah. I have a pretty extensive art collection, and not only enjoying that piece of art but also actually knowing that artist on a personal level. A lot of kids, they're not afforded that opportunity. Getting to see different things, not only after a show's set up but all the work that goes in behind it, behind the scenes, because it's a lot of work. Gosh, having a private teacher. You can take all the art classes that you want, and you learn their technique and their style. My dad, being self-taught, he would just jump in there and do it because nobody ever told him that he couldn't. That was the kind of teacher that I had. We would be down here at this studio. There were many a days, being on the big easel behind you there, just having fun and 27:00experimenting, yeah, and the benefit of just having exceptional parents.

Little Thunder: Did your father's collectors gravitate toward your work, as well, or did you develop a separate following, or was it kind of a combination?

Rabbit: I would say in the beginning, maybe a little bit of a combination, but not all collectors are going to follow what you do. They'll encourage you. There was one gentleman--I had done quite a bit of work for my first show at Indian Market with my dad, and I was probably twenty, twenty-one, maybe. Like I said, Dad used to tell me, "You better develop thick skin fast. I can open doors for you, but I can't coddle you. I'm not going to tell gallery owners and/or 28:00collectors. You will have to stand on your own two feet, period."

I would say the person that I admired right out of high school, their work, was Dana Tiger. I remember being at Colorado Indian Market and looking down from the mezzanine at her booth, thinking, "She's awesome." I think that's what really inspired me to start painting Native American women. Well, I know it is. She was really, really the person. Being friends with her now, (and I've told her this story) I said, "I can tell you what you were wearing, even, that day, and I just thought you rocked."

As far as collectors, I had one collector come up, and this was, I would say, my first series of Native American women that I was trying to portray and trying to find my footing. I think as a child of somebody that is well-known, you're 29:00painting what you're being taught, but yet you want to go in the total opposite direction so people can differentiate your work from your father's. The in-the-shadow syndrome. A collector came up and said, "I just don't think those women are ever going to sell for you." I remember at first thinking, "Wow, that's kind of mean," (Laughs) but then it was probably the best thing that he ever told me because I made it a point from that show on that I was going to paint women's faces, not just the back of their heads. Some of my early work, it would just be the back of their heads. Dad would draw all these profiles for me on a canvas, and he'd say "Okay, Sis, I want you to start painting all these profiles," because that's what he mostly did. He was teaching me what he knew. From that Indian Market on, I thought, "I am going to do anything but profiles."

I started just practicing and practicing and practicing, and trying to get the color right and different things. It grew to where I had some people that collected my work because I was Bill's daughter, and then as my style grew and the more time you spend and you get better at your art, I started to have a collector base that didn't even collect Dad's. It's funny how things come full circle. You start standing on your own feet and doing a totally different style, but yet the hair was always what tied his work and my work together. I would say Dad was really well known for that long hair, and so I use that in my work.

Now I have my own collector base, before he passed, to where they would walk into a show, and people would say "Well, you know, Bill," (they would apologize to him) "I just really like your daughter's work." He goes, "She is a good buy. 31:00I am more proud of her. You should collect her work because it's better than mine. She can paint faces way better." That's a dad talking. Yeah, it's a combination. It's a combination. Then towards the end, we did the collaboration work together.

Little Thunder: Yeah, and we'll talk about that here pretty quick. So when did you establish Rabbit Studios here?

Rabbit: In this building, I want to say, I think we've been here since 1990, I believe. Prior to that, Dad had a couple of other smaller studios.

Little Thunder: Also open to the public, like a store kind of situation?

Rabbit: They were smaller. The public has always been able to come down, but I would say this is a bigger location where we were able to do that.

Little Thunder: And whose idea was it? Was it kind of everybody's or your dad's 32:00or yours?

Rabbit: I was in college at the time, so I would say that was a Mom and Dad. He outgrew the studio by Kentucky Fried Chicken, pretty much, and they were looking for a building. This used to be a car shop. A guy kept his racecar here. It came up for sale, and it was what they needed, so we've been here since.

Little Thunder: The Native Art market got pretty tough after 2001, and a lot of artists tried to figure how to ride it out, or are still trying to figure that out. I know that one of your strategies was reproductions of artwork on smaller, less expensive items. How have those been important to your business?

Rabbit: Very important. Right after I graduated college, Dad was already doing calendars with a company in Phoenix, Arizona, which was not always a popular 33:00path to follow. When you've got three kids and one in college--which my mom and dad paid for every ounce of my college out of their pocket. That's something I'm very proud I can say. From the selling of his art, he paid for my five years. When I got out, he was already dealing with a company in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm not for sure really what it was that sparked doing the gift items.

Like I said, I was doing my art then, as well. I believe one of the last calendars, it was six of Dad's images, six of mine. My dad was a very smart businessman. He just had that innate ability to see both worlds, so when I came along, got done with college, I could see a lot of opportunities in his work. It 34:00was kind of the next generation moving forward, doing something more innovative and out of the box, which he had already done in his time by stepping outside of the boundaries of Oklahoma and expanding his market.

An opportunity came along to work with a company and do contracts where they're producing your work, and you get paid a royalty. One of the contracts kind of went sour. Dad would do business on your word. You can write up the longest contract that you want, but if that person is not going to back it, that contract doesn't mean anything. Learned that real early. I don't care if you have an attorney or not. Anyway, there was this deal that went sour, and I told Dad, I said, "We can do that. We can do that." It was from that bad experience 35:00that evolved us starting to be our own manufacturer.

I told Dad, I said, "Even though it's not the norm at the time, why can't we do it? All we've got to do is go buy some equipment." We set a goal. We started off small. At that time everybody was doing limited edition offset lithographs. I said, "Why don't we take these calendar prints, and let's put a mat on them. They're printed on the same paper as a limited edition, the same thickness. The same printer printed them. Let's put a mat on them. Let's appeal to a market of 36:00about fifteen dollars retail," because most people at that time, and even today, will drop a twenty and not think too much about it. You get over a hundred, and they're considering it.

So that's how that started. We went from these calendars that everybody was buying to putting a mat on them, selling them, to doing notecards, doing our own magnets, and it just kind of grew. I think that's where the marketing or business end that I enjoy so much, that's probably where it started. I probably got that from my mom and dad, that can-do attitude. "If this company can do it, so can we." That's how that started. When we started doing the tiles, we were one of the first artists that were actually producing our own tiles because at that time R. C. Gorman--when dad was named one of the top five investments in the United States, it was him, Amado Peña, I think, Doc Tate, Donald Vann, and there's one more that's evading my memory. Everybody was doing licensing agreements at the time, but nobody was actually producing.

We had the family backing with my mom and cousins that we had this support system. My brain that sometimes, my mom says, goes twenty-four hours a day, I 37:00was like, "We can do this." I'll tell you what, I'd go see a product, and I'm like, "We can do our image and do this. We're already doing the wholesale shows with these manufacturers. Why not do our own line?" Dad says, "Go for it," and I did. I ran with it, but I always had supportive parents and, of course, his images. It has just grown exponentially. During the bad times of the economy when people aren't necessarily buying a $3,000, $4,000, $5,000 original, they will buy a twenty-dollar matted notecard. That filled in the gap, but it also created a whole new area of collectors that would buy these matted things.

Little Thunder: As you explained, those kinds of small sales are important and they add up for an artist, but I know that you've run into some problems with shows over that.

Rabbit: Some of the shows are, they are original-only shows, which I respect. I respect the rules. The rules have been around a long, long time, but from a next generation's point of view, and I look at--my dad would always tell me if you see somebody that's successful, whether they're an artist or no matter what form of business they're in, try to figure out why they're successful. You look at McDonalds, Wal-Mart, how Wal-Mart prices things. All of these things would come into play for how we would do things.

I think my dad being a full-time artist, when you support your family and your mom, nobody else is working a nine-to-five and bringing home a check or retirement, disability, whatever, and all you have to rely on is the sale of your art. You go to a show, and you can only show originals, and you're sitting there for two days, three days, whatever it may be, you're hoping for that one collector. In the back of your mind you're thinking, "Okay, when I get home I 39:00have a house payment. I've got this. I've got two other kids still in school." That part, when you're doing it full-time, it never leaves your brain, never.

When you're picking these shows, having all originals, it's great. You have to have those originals in order to have the reproductions. Yes, it does all start there, but you still have to pay the electric bill. I think sometimes promoters of shows, it has gone on so long is has become a tradition. I feel personally that Native Americans, our art is as good as anybody's in the world, anybody's, but I think sometimes that the rules are antiquated and that Native Americans, we are smart, innovative people. They tried to kill us out, but it didn't happen. We've got strong DNA. So why can't we compete on a world market just 40:00like European artists?

That has always been my mindset. When you go to a show and you rent your ten-by-ten, my philosophy or my argument, I guess, was if we're making these products, especially the reproductions, we're cutting the mats, we're printing our own prints, we're making our own tiles. You can come down to my studio any time and see the equipment that I use. You have questions, I'll answer them. If you're supporting your family, cousins, and a lot of times uncles, aunts, over the years, everybody is pulling together to produce these products, why can we not sell those?

Those rules at shows--I've written many letters to Red Earth and different ones, stating my point of my argument because for them that is a one-time show that they have volunteers, and they do a great job behind the scenes. It takes a lot 41:00of work to put on a show, and then you have cantankerous artists that come in and want to complain. I don't want to be that artist, but I also know that on the economic side, that you have bills to pay and that for those three days, you are there to sell, to conduct business, to be professional. I've got three days to make a month's worth of money to come home and pay bills. I think committees and people like that, they don't take that into consideration. I volunteer. I said, "I will come and talk to you guys and maybe you can see things, or why don't you come to my studio? Because if I don't sell something here this weekend and at least pay for my booth and expenses, I'm going in the hole. I've still got the electric when I get home."

It has always been, in my opinion, "Don't put your thumb on us. Encourage us. Let us compete on a world market because we are intelligent, innovative people, 42:00and we have the gusto and the know-how." Especially the younger generation that's coming up. They're computer literate, and they are doing wonderful things with technology. They don't necessarily have to be a hand-pulled item or a hand-pulled print. I think that we need to adjust with the times. There's only going to be one original, only going to be one, but let us compete on a world market with everybody else because we're just as smart and as good as they are. That's just been my opinion.

Little Thunder: Let's talk a little bit about when you and your dad began painting collaboratively--

Rabbit: Okay.

Little Thunder: --how that idea came about and what your first project was.

Rabbit: Okay, first project. The first project, I would have to say it was a 43:00five-piece mural that we did. They were building the new Cherokee Casino in Catoosa, and at that time Taylor Keen was the one in charge of commissioning work for the restaurant, is what it was. He called me and Dad up there. Put on our hard hats. We got to go up there and see what they were talking about, where it was going to be displayed, the subject matter that they wanted. It was five thirty-by-forty canvases that made one big original. We told them our idea. He said, "Go with it. Love it." The big easel behind you, we actually extended the two-by-fours to hold all five pieces. That was the very first one that we worked together. First of all, it was a very strict deadline, and we needed both of us 44:00on it to complete the deadline.

Little Thunder: So that's kind of how the idea of collaborating came about?

Rabbit: Yes. I believe that Taylor had asked, "Could you two work on this together? That way we have--" because they were trying to incorporate all the Cherokee artists. At that time there was only so many spots of art that could be filled. It was kind of a twofer, a two-for-one, and that was our first one. After we completed that, it was--I've always enjoyed working with my dad, but it was such an honor to even be asked. It was pretty humbling. I was nervous. I was all of those things that, yeah. That was the first one, that five-piece mural.

Little Thunder: And it was what subject matter?

Rabbit: It was titled Spring Planting, and it was a Cherokee homeplace after the Removal when they came to Oklahoma. It depicted something very similar to my 45:00dad's grandparents' home, kind of rural Cherokee country.

Little Thunder: How did you divide up the painting responsibilities?

Rabbit: We divided it up into what we do best.

Little Thunder: Which was?

Rabbit: Dad would, he did--okay, I'm trying to think of the piece. I have it up front, a small tile mural gift item. Even on any collaboration piece that we did after that, we did what we did best. Dad would do backgrounds at that time. I'm a detail-oriented person, so there'd be trees with all the limbs and things that he did back in the day. I started to pick up on that. He would work on it a little bit. There was so much detail in that painting. I didn't want to paint a tree for years after that because I think we had, was it four, four big trees. I 46:00mean the tree is this high, and you know the detail I'm talking about, with your husband.

Little Thunder: So he was kind of roughing in the background, the landscape?

Rabbit: Yeah, he would do the background, the mountains, pad that in how he would do with his sponges and different things, and then he would take a break. While he was done with his session, he's over here on the other easel painting other paintings, getting ready for other shows. Then I would come in, and I would do a layer of my work. Then he would come in. It was kind of an alternating thing. There was a big scissortail, flying bird in the sky. I would do the detail of that. There was parts of it that we both worked on, and then there were things that were just totally separate. It truly is a collaborative effort when we work together, very much so.

Little Thunder: That's cool. In 2006 you and your dad competed nationally, I 47:00think, to come up with a concept for the Trail of Painted Ponies.

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: I think your dad had already done one, but this was one you did together. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Rabbit: Yeah, when that came about it was called the Native American Art of Horse Painting, I believe was the theme of the competition. He had already done one pony titled Earth, Wind, and Fire. It was a full-sized horse. They had asked us to submit a sketch. We were down here talking. Usually we would have our morning meetings at breakfast at Thomas', and I told him, I said--

Little Thunder: At Thomas'?

Rabbit: Restaurant.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Rabbit: Yeah, we would have breakfast over there.

Little Thunder: That's your routine?

Rabbit: That was our routine. We'd eat breakfast every morning over there, talk about what we was going to accomplish for the day, what we needed to do. We had a list by the time we got here to the studio to accomplish that day. It was getting down to the deadline for the sketch. I don't know if a lot of artists are like that, but I'm usually, like, right down to the deadline. Maybe it's an 48:00Indian thing. I don't know. (Laughs) We were having breakfast one morning, and the deadline was approaching. They gave us this outline of the horse. I said "You know what, Dad? They're only going to pick ten, and we need to be different. Instead of you doing a pony and me doing a pony, because these sketches are flat, let's put your design on one, my design on the other, and tell them it's going to be one pony where you paint one side, I paint the other." He's like "Man, that is great, Sis!"

We get back to the studio, and I said "Okay, the horse culture is mostly your Plains tribes, so let's go that direction. On your side, what do you think? You paint the male warrior, or his version, what he's responsible for within that tribe. I'll do the female version on my side." We still have the original sketches. When we sent that in, we were hopeful. We wanted it to be different, 49:00and we was approaching it as a collaborative effort. There was over 400 entries, international, when they called. They picked him, and we was one of the ten. I was so nervous. You know when you're doing a sketch and you're jumping out there, you're like, "Woo-hoo, yeah, let's do it!" Then when you get chosen, you're like, "Oh, yeah, now that's pressure." That was so cool!

They sent us the horse. At that time they were doing what they called maquette, so they were smaller horse, not a life-size. Dad actually finished his side first. When we do collaborative, I would let him go first, and then it was my turn to do my side. I actually worked on my horse quite a bit while he was in the hospital. I would just bring my little paint table and worked right beside 50:00his bed in the room.

Little Thunder: So that got finished very recently?

Rabbit: His hospital stays--he had battled Agent Orange. He was first diagnosed thirty, thirty-one. A lot of people didn't know it was Agent Orange. He battled it for thirty-five years. When we was doing the pony, he was not in kidney failure at that time, but he would battle respiratory problems. He's real prone to pneumonia, so it was one of those days. We got to where we called them slumber parties because when he went in the hospital, I didn't come home until he did.

Little Thunder: You were in a traveling exhibit, I think, sponsored by the [National] Museum of the American Indian at the Smithsonian called Ramp it Up. I 51:00may not have that right. It was skateboard art, and it sounded like a lot of fun. I wondered if you could talk about that.

Rabbit: Yes, I was doing a show at the Smithsonian, and I met this skateboard company, Native Skates. He was actually across from us, from our booth. You know how you are when you're at shows. You get to know your neighbors, and you get to meet some great people. I had one of Dad's feathers hanging. I was trying to think if Dad was there that year. Anyway, he said "You know, that would look really great on a skateboard. You open to that idea?" I said, "I'm always open to neat, fun ideas." So that's how that came about. We was actually neighbors at a show. I think the skateboard idea was awesome. It was so neat to be represented. They photographed that, and Todd sent that to me through an e-mail.

Little Thunder: You didn't go to an opening.

Rabbit: We weren't able to go at that time. It was really cool. As a matter of 52:00fact, we had a snowboard company like my dad's skeleton paintings and had talked about doing that on snowboards. It's really cool to--and that's what was neat about my dad is that he was multi-generational. He was always in touch with his age group, being a baby boomer, older people, all the way to the young kids on skateboards. When I told him, I said, "What do you think about a skateboard?" he goes, "That's cool!" He thought it was great, yeah.

Little Thunder: I don't remember if you mentioned the name of that show that you met Todd at.

Rabbit: It was the Smithsonian Powwow.

Little Thunder: The Smithsonian Powwow.

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay, I'd like to talk a little bit about your process and techniques a little bit more.

Rabbit: Okay.

Little Thunder: So how has your subject matter changed since you started painting?

Rabbit: I think when I started painting, I did the Woodland style of, basically, 53:00my dad's work because he was teaching me what he knew. From that, evolved into more following Dana's work like I mentioned earlier because I just thought she was awesome. I started painting the Native American woman. Then over the years, that really has been the mainstay unless it's a commission or something that we're working for Cherokee Nation. That, then and now, continues to probably be my passion because I had such a strong mother figure in my life that told me I could do anything that I set my mind to. I guess that's why I always admired Dana at the time because she seemed to personify that type of a person. I continue to paint Native American women. That's what I enjoy.

Little Thunder: How has your palette or choice of colors changed over the years?

Rabbit: I would say in the beginning it was more earth tones, doing the landscapes and the Cherokee old home place settings. If I'm feeling red and purple that day, we're going to do red and purple. Being around a colorful character like my dad and, like I say, being self-taught, if he was feeling green, purple that day--he loved color. He just loved color. That has obviously been a big influence on me. I know, personally, when I walk into my home and I see my art on the wall, color makes me feel good. If I'm able to create something that day and I'm feeling the red, hopefully somebody is going to walk into my booth and they're feeling the red, and they like it, and it puts a smile on their face. Right now, I'm starting to paint again, which has been a process. 55:00For Santa Fe Indian Market, that was a big stepping stone for me because I applied for a booth on my own, and I was accepted.

Little Thunder: That's unusual for first-time applications.

Rabbit: Yeah. I felt my dad behind me all the way. Color makes me feel good. Right now I'm "the brighter the better," as Dad would say. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Your primary medium is acrylic on canvas.

Rabbit: Yes, yes, I enjoy the acrylics. I did take a oil class with Sharon Irla. She was kind of laughing at me because--which I love her work, great artist. She does oil. We sat down, and we had to sketch. I think you can continue to learn. 56:00When you quit learning, you're done. I've heard a lot of artists say, "What is the best painting you've completed?" Well, you're always looking for that next one that you're going to do. I took her class. I thought, "I'm going to try oil, okay." Dad said, "I think that'd be a good idea." I go down there, got my sketch done, and we're doing what she calls the gray stage of the old Masters.

I went and bought the book that she recommended. I'm honestly not a big reader. I'm a picture person. When I was in college (honestly I hate to say this on tape) I never read a book openly. I'm a scanner. I'm a note-taker, so I'm a quick thinker. I'm a study, visual. I had my sketch out, and we're doing this gray stage, and everybody's mixing their paint. With oil, you're afforded the ability to take your time and blend. Well, I grew up in acrylics, and I'm used to, "Let's get the paint on there." You have your hairdryer right here, and you're drying it, and we're moving on the to the next stage.

This four-hour class, Traci had done in about thirty minutes. Sharon come over there, and she's kind of laughing at me. I said, "What do we do now?" She goes, "Traci, that has to dry." (Laughter) I said, "I got three more hours. What do I do?" So I didn't take all of her classes. She gave me the Cliff Notes. To this day, actually, I apply a couple of the techniques that I learned in the oil class, but I do them with acrylic. I just figured out how to do it with acrylic because my brain and how I was taught or trained or mentored is to work fast.

Little Thunder: I'm wondering about some of your stylistic shifts. I think one exploration that I thought was really interesting (and it happened on the pony) was some ledger images but very stylized. You could tell they were your ledger 58:00images. Are you doing a bit of that, too, or was that just for that particular project?

Rabbit: No, I've done several. I've always been fascinated by Plains Indian art, always. My interest or influence in things that I like ranges. It's kind of a strange combination. I love Japanese art. Karl Bang, love his work, and I like Plains artists. I love ledger drawing. I guess that's the reason I like Doc Tate's work because it was so detailed. So, no, I still continue to do the ledger work. As a matter of fact, I did a line, I guess you could say, or a time in my career where I did nothing but hand-painted purses and big leather wall hangings a lot of people have never seen because I've been really blessed, when 59:00I was traveling with my dad, to sell.

Little Thunder: So they were selling out of state?

Rabbit: Oh, yeah. Traveling with my dad, he threw me into an arena of full-time artists very young and very fast. I feel that when you're creating a piece for a competition, you need to have the time to sit down, to put your best foot forward. For me, personally, keeping up with my dad's pace from a early age and traveling and doing as many shows as we had to to pay the wonderful IRS back for those ten long years, I did not have time to sit in a studio and to create pieces for competition. I forgot your question. I got to rambling.

Little Thunder: No, it was just about the ledger art.

Rabbit: The ledger art, right. I guess in my art I've always been a detail 60:00person, so that's what fascinated me about that. I would look at books and different things with the ledger artwork on it and kind of put a little contemporary spin on it, I don't know, just putting a, maybe, female touch, showing the male side. I've always enjoyed Plains art. I really have, really, really have. Fascinated by it and the parfleche designs. Love those. As a matter of fact, on my motorcycle out back, there's a big ledger piece on the leather bag with the beadwork that you'll have to see. Yeah, that's what I chose to put on my motorcycle was ledger art. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: And you also have a line, I think, of Cherokee clan images.

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: Were those all your work, or a combination of yours and your dad's, or all your dad's?

Rabbit: Let's see. There's seven clans that we've done. Then we've also done a series of Southeast designs, which your Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, we all kind of claim those Pre-Columbian designs. The seven clans, the ones that we do for our gift line of coffee mugs and different things that we sell to the museums, I think that first seven clan series, those were Dad's only. He was commissioned, actually, by the Boys and Girls Club here locally. Those seven originals hang in their fun game room here in Pryor. Those seven clans are my dad's. It's funny how, like I said earlier, when you do it full-time and you're thinking of how to pay the bills, it's a bonus. As an artist, I think, you're going to create anyway, and it's a bonus getting paid. You find that fine line in between where you're getting paid and you still get to do what you love. 62:00That's where you branch off into different marketing ideas.

The Southeast designs kind of became popular when the Hard Rock--each of our casinos is themed a certain time period. Our Tribal Council, which was awesome, any building that is built within the Cherokee Nation, the 1 percent fund goes for the purchase of art. Hard Rock is the Pre-Columbian era, so those really became popular. A resurgence of those, not only in pottery, the gorget shell jewelry, that Southeast culture really started people to recognize that. That was a whole other series that we did together, yes.

Little Thunder: What role does sketching play in your work?

Rabbit: A little. Where my dad did, maybe on a canvas, very little sketching, he may draw the profile in. Me, my process of creating is different than his, 63:00because he (and this is my opinion) was like five artists in one body. I used to love to watch him paint because he would go directly from the wet paint here, right onto the canvas. Me, my process is, I'm a little, well, not a little. My mom says I'm a whole lot more detailed-oriented. That's what I always admired about Ben Harjo, Merlin Little Thunder's work, is all that detail that they would put in these pieces.

I sit down, and depending on what show, what area of the country I'm going to, I think that that's always been important. I'll sit down, and usually it takes me--and my dad never could understand this, but it'd take me about two days to unwind. I would explain to him where he would get to come down to the studio, all he had to do was paint. Me, I'm paying bills, taxes, I'm marketing, I'm getting ads ready, I'm paying booth fees. Your left and right brain, you have to 64:00calm that one side down to go to your creative side. It took me about a day, day and a half to come down.

When I'm in that zone of creating, then that's when I do a little, not a whole lot, of detailed sketch. I just kind of know where I want to put her, and then after that I'll--right now, actually, I feel like I've come full circle where I can pick up on a technique that my dad called his sky image, more of a drippy technique to where there is no sketching involved in that. You're literally working it wet. How it dries, it's a fun surprise when it's all done. So, yeah, very little, probably the face, just the outline. Actually, I have a sketch behind you that I could show you. That would be how it would start.

Little Thunder: What kinds of research do you do?

Rabbit: Depends on the piece. If it's a commission piece, a lot of research. The 65:00piece behind me, that was an era of 1780 to 1830, which is right prior to the removal of the Cherokee people. For this piece, library. You have your online access, which is great. It depends on the piece, depends on the piece, really. If I'm incorporating, say, a different tribe, I try not to do anything that would even--I don't even remotely touch their religious beliefs or something like that. I try to respect all of that because I am not knowledgeable in that. If I had a specific question, I do have friends like Charles Pratt, Cheyenne-Arapaho. I have asked him questions, you know. That's where having that access to very well-known artists has been very valuable to me growing up, very valuable.

Little Thunder: Can you describe your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Rabbit: If I'm in the zone and I'm not having to be at my desk, I'll start there. When I was getting ready for Indian Market, I knew I'm going out to the Southwest. I knew what style of work my dad did and sold well out there. Being my first Indian Market, I knew that I wanted to have my women, his technique, my colors, my detail. That creative process for this show was probably one of the most important shows of building inventory that I've done to date, and I feel like it was received well. I sold well, being one of, what, a thousand artists 67:00out there. I was extremely blessed. Paid for my trip, met some great people, came back full of energy. When I come home, I just want to get right back to the easel, but yet it is a business, and I have to treat it as such. You have to continue to do the paperwork side of it. As a matter of fact, I'm doing taxes all this week. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You sort of described your routine a bit, your creative routine, breakfast in the morning. Is there anything else that kind of grounds you each day?

Rabbit: Each day.

Little Thunder: Working at night as opposed to--

Rabbit: I would feel my routine has changed a lot since the passing of my dad, which is sometimes hard. When I'm getting ready for a show, the best time for me 68:00to work--now at our studio we do Monday through Thursday. Fridays is Traci day down here by herself to where she's quiet. I have to have quiet. I prefer the radio music going. I don't necessarily like the TV. When I'm getting ready for a show, when I was getting ready for Indian Market, I knew what I had to do. I was up at five, and I worked until eleven each night every day to get ready for that show. It was right about three and a half weeks, and it was crunch time. Right now I'm two individuals. I have to keep a business running, and we do wholesale markets, and we have galleries that call, stores that call that are placing orders, thank goodness. God has blessed our family beyond measure, so that takes 69:00up a lot of my time.

When the next year comes, we're already planning, right now, new gift items. As a matter of fact, this week I got here at, it was about five thirty in the morning. By the time my mom and my cousin get here at nine, I had this whole list. I said, "I am wired for sound! I've been up since five thirty." I think that probably my mom would say since maybe March or April of this year, you start to feel a little bit, getting back into the groove. It's been a process.

Little Thunder: Well, thinking back on your career, what was a pivotal moment when you might have gone down one road but you took another? You might have touched on it already.

Rabbit: I would say the pivotal moment really would have been the IRS because my family needed me. A lot of things that they were experiencing at the time was 70:00things that (and I don't want to say his name) if Mr. Art Instructor down there, head of the art department, had not discouraged me--. Everything happens for a reason. You think that you're going along in your life, and you have this great plan laid out ahead of you, and somebody hits you from the side. You just change your trajectory of your life, and it was not by accident. I feel that that was probably pivotal for me. Probably the second would be not having [Dad] here.

Little Thunder: If you like, we'll pause and take a look at some of your paintings.

Rabbit: Okay.

Little Thunder: You want to tell us about this piece, the title, etcetera?

This piece right here is titled Warrior Within. It's a new original that I just completed. As I had stated earlier, the creative process, on a blank canvas I would sketch her face in. Then I would take the acrylic, (golden fluid acrylic is actually what I prefer to use) I would paint in the background. Then this technique that you see here, this is all done very fast, very wet with a brush. Once I have on there a general idea of what I like, I actually would tilt the canvas in the direction that I want the paint to flow. It never dries how it is when you first put it on, so it's a fun deal. It's like you're getting a present 72:00at the end.

Little Thunder: You like that element of surprise.

Rabbit: Yes.

Little Thunder: And your signature, you want to explain what you do for your signature real quick?

Rabbit: Yes, how I sign my originals. My dad would sign his "Rabbit" with the cross above his name with the radiating beams. When I first started painting, I always signed my name, Traci Rabbit. Then over the years, I have incorporated his cross, as well, so that's how you differentiate our paintings.

Little Thunder: How about this piece?

Rabbit: This one's titled Sarah's Tea Party. This actually represents a Cherokee home place in Oklahoma, a little girl. This is what I would call a Woodland style piece of work with all the detail in the trees, the fine detail of her dress, the patchwork quilt. When I was working on this piece--actually, this one has not shown a lot. I decided to put the little stuffed rabbit in the chair she was having the tea party with.

Little Thunder: I love that.

Rabbit: When my mom seen the rabbit, she confiscated it, so a lot of people haven't seen this particular piece. This one's titled Sarah's Tea Party.

Little Thunder: And how about this particular painting?

Rabbit: This painting is titled Wind Songs. It has a watercolor background technique. Early on in my career while my dad was still here, he painted at his studio, and I would paint in my living room at home in Locust Grove. When I brought this piece over, he's like, "Sis, that is just beautiful. How did you get that background?" He says, "I know how you did you it. It's a watercolor technique with acrylic, and you sprinkled salt, but how are you getting all that definition?" I said, "Well, Dad--." I would tease him. I said, "It's a trade secret."

I brought a canvas over, and I showed him that when you're working it wet and you're applying your color then your salt, if you apply heat, it makes the salt grab it faster and the water evaporate faster. So you get this really neat pulling technique faster. On watercolor paper, you're going to get that, but 74:00when you're working with canvas, it's not absorbent. You have to work around the canvas. I figured out through experimenting with heat, light, different things, that I was able to do that, and that was something that I learned on my own. I was so proud to come to the studio, and he was asking me how I did something! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And you've really got some nice texture and beadwork on there, too.

Rabbit: Yeah, and this is part of that. I've always been fascinated--I'm a big collector of beadwork. Again, the Plains culture, just always admired. Yeah, a lot of detail in that dress.

Little Thunder: All right. How about this painting?

Rabbit: This painting here is another twenty-four by thirty-six, titled Special Moments. This was at a time when I was starting to feel like I had done enough work with my own different technique that I could come in and apply, as you see, the blanket area here and the swirls, things that my dad was well-known for in 75:00his work, but have the detail of my faces.

This is actually a picture of myself and my niece. I'm holding my brother's little girl who was only still for about three seconds. This is actually a transition piece, what I would call a transition piece from Wind Songs to where I'm starting to incorporate what my dad had taught me with the women, and of course the long hair that was always signature of his work. I definitely incorporated that into my work because I wanted to be able to keep his legacy and what he taught me alive. I feel I can do that through my work.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today.

Rabbit: You're welcome. Thank you.

------- End of interview -------