Oral history interview with Frank Sheridan

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Saturday, May 4. I am interviewing Cheyenne artist Frank Sheridan as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Frank's home in El Reno. Frank, you specialize in beadwork and cultural items. You do ledger painting. You've won numerous awards, including the First Peoples [Fund] Community Spirit Award. You have an MBA. You had your own store for a while. You're currently employed by the Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribe in the elder care program. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

Sheridan: Thank you for coming. I consider it a privilege.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Sheridan: I was born in Lawton, Oklahoma, August 27, 1950. I grew up in Kiowa Country in Anadarko. I went to high school at Riverside Indian School. Prior to graduating, I dropped out of school like a lot of my peer group at that time, 1:00and there was a lady that worked at the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] that was instrumental in getting me to go back. She saw potential in me, and, anyway, she helped me go back. Best thing that happened after I graduated was leaving Anadarko, and I came up this way. I can go on and on, so let's go with your questions. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Brothers and sisters?

Sheridan: I am the last surviving sibling. Johnny was a brother. He was a Vietnam veteran, a door gunner in Vietnam. He survived being shot down in a helicopter crash. I had another brother, (he's gone) Phillip Lee Botone. I had another brother, Robert Keith Botone, and I had a sister, Erin Lynn Botone. I have one full sister, Marian Hill, so it's actually me and my sister are the 2:00last siblings.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Sheridan: Dad was an artist. My mother worked for the BIA for years and years and years. She worked in realty. As part of that, she developed a research project involving Cheyenne genealogy from Sand Creek. She has the most extensive Cheyenne genealogy of any person who's done the research, volumes and volumes and volumes.

Little Thunder: What about your grandparents on either side?

Sheridan: My grandmother was Dulcie Bushyhead; grandfather was Fred Bushyhead. Fred was primarily a farmer/laborer. On my mother's side, my Grandma Lena was Kiowa. Her maiden name was Two Hatchet, and my grandfather, John Sheridan, he 3:00was basically a laborer. He worked at the old Clinton Indian Hospital as a ambulance driver, and when the program came along where one of the presidents put people to work, (the CCC program, I believe) he worked for that awhile. He spoke fluent Cheyenne. He spoke fluent Arapaho.

Little Thunder: So you have some memories of--

Sheridan: I have very pleasant memories of my Grandpa John and my Grandma Lena, really good memories. My Grandpa John's mother was Pipe Woman, He'ooneva'e in Cheyenne, and that's my hallmark. I've always signed my artwork Pipe Woman. I've never signed my last name on it. The reason I do that is because Pipe Woman, this is her, (shows photo) she was known for her beadwork and craftwork. The 4:00things I do, the bags, the bow cases, the cradle boards, parfleches, boxes, they knew the origins of them greater than I did. They had utility for them.

Basically, through the work I do, I feel that I'm honoring her memory. As I do these things, I talk to her spirit, her memory. I talk to her father. Her father's name was Moore. He was a Cheyenne chief, he was a arrow keeper, and he was a medicine man. What people don't know about Moore, in order to be Arrow Keeper, they say you have to be full-blood Cheyenne. Moore was half-Sioux. Moore's father's name was Eight Horns. Moore's mother's name was Iron Woman. 5:00Eight Horns was killed in the Black Hills fighting gold prospectors.

When my mother was a little child, she developed a sickness during the winter, and doctors gave up on her. My grandpa and his cousin went after Moore in an old, open Model-T to bring him back. This Cut Grass, aka Moore, he doctored my mother, and when he got the material out of her, he gave it to my grandpa, told him to go throw it in the wind. When he came back in, he had a little white fish. He got it and blew it into my mother. He told my grandma and grandpa, "This little baby is going to live to be a old, old, old lady, and when she goes on, they're going to find that little fish." I put a lot of faith in the ability 6:00that Maheo gave that old man to doctor my mother because we brung her home just yesterday after a bout with pneumonia.

As Cheyenne we're always thankful in that spiritual realm, offer thanks every day, try to maintain that spiritual contact. The reality of it is while Mom was in the hospital she was, how they say, talking to her mom, her dad. In that sense, it scares some people, but in another sense, that taught me and my daughters that this life we're living right now is just temporary, that spiritual life is forever. As a Cheyenne, I feel really humble that I was brung 7:00up that way, to acknowledge things like that and try to pass them on.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that story. What is your first memory of seeing art?

Sheridan: My first memory--

Little Thunder: Or Native art.

Sheridan: --as an adolescent, Southern Plains [Indian] Museum in Anadarko. We lived about three blocks from there. I would go there, I'd go in, I'd look at the stuff. I was always attracted to Cheyenne cultural items. I saw them. In that adolescence, I had a feeling that they did belong to someone before they 8:00got there. How did they acquire them? It's like some of the things we as Indian people have is an innate feeling about things.

Then as I got older, I traveled, go to museums. I'd see these wonderful cultural items behind museum glass, and there was no chance of the curator letting me look at them and touch them until a few years ago through First Peoples Fund. Got to go up to the Denver Art Museum. I got to go into the basement, and, oh my gosh, my dreams came true.

I got to see all of the Cheyenne cultural items, some that was collected at Sand Creek. Knowing the history of it, knowing the people that made those things, knowing that they understood those things greater than I did, it was such a privilege to see things that maybe some of my relatives made back then. Some of 9:00the Lakota work is there because people think I'm Cheyenne, but I am Kiowa, too. I'm also Sioux by blood. That's my recollection of first artwork.

Little Thunder: What's your first memory of making art?

Sheridan: First memory, in Anadarko, I had to have been about ten, twelve. I found a piece of wood, and I got a pencil, and I started drawing. I drew a eye, and it was very, very good. I went, "Wow, I did that?" (Laughter) That's my first recollection.

My first recollection of adult artwork, as far as beading goes, I always wanted 10:00to learn how to bead. My mother, Ruby, she was known for her beadwork, her moccasins, her leggings, her ladies' dance purses, her man's dance belts. I came to her one time, I said, "Mama, Mama, Mama, I want you to teach me to bead." I brung her a handful of mismatched, different-sized beads, and she just laughed at me. She did show me, but that's where I got my start as a adult, as far as the traditional aspect of it.

The other things that I do, there was no way to learn. There was no way to have someone tell me, "You do it this way. You do it this way. You do it this way." As part of that cognitive process, you look at something, and you figure it out. You think it's about like this, and you think it's about like this. After you 11:00try it, it becomes second nature. You just do it. As a production artist, sometimes to speed up and for inventory, I have, like, patterns, and I do all my rough cut. Everything I do is a single artistic piece because it's all drawn individually and painted.

Little Thunder: I wondered if you could talk--because cultures are always evolving and changing and back in the ʼ40s and ʼ30s when there were all the beading circles and people started to discourage the idea of men beading, can you talk about when that started to change, maybe? Of course, it depended on families, too.

Sheridan: I think among the Cheyenne, there was the beading guilds, if you will, 12:00of the women, and it was really unusual for a male to do the beading. We have a buckskin shirt that belonged to my Grandpa John that was made in 1899. It was made by Moore, Cut Grass, for my grandpa. It's still, the buckskin is as soft as it was made yesterday. It's in that bright yellow, Cheyenne-smoked buckskin. You don't see that buckskin anymore.

There are other men among the Cheyenne that did do beadwork early on before I started, (I can't think of their names right now) but it slowly evolved. When I started, I started out on making Native American church items: fans, gourds. I was taught by different ones. This is an example of one of the things I do. It's 13:00going to be a peyote gourd. It has the purple heartwood, beaded with size thirteen cut beads, a single bead, what they call a gourd stitch. I have the birds. I do my own lathe work. As you develop these things, you start from just a piece of wood, then you go down.

As far as beading, the other things that I've done, I've done buckskin dresses. I did a really beautiful buckskin dress for my ex-wife, and it took me about eleven months. My mother showed me how. Gladys Parton showed me how to cut it out. I've done moccasins, leggings. I've learned from different ones. The technique of beading, I picked up from my mother. She would take me to different relatives of hers so they could tell me how to do the right cuts and that type 14:00of thing.

Two ladies that really encouraged me as far as the beading aspect, one was Bertha Little Coyote. Another one was Evelyn White Crane. They're both my mother's aunts. Over a period of time your skills develop. The abstract thought process, you look at something, and you claim ownership, and you modify it, and you make it your own. Over the years, the ledger work that I do, a lot of people have told me that people copy my work, but I think that's really flattering and complimentary. (Laughter) I've done book covers. I've been in Native Peoples magazine. I've done all types of work, and it's always evolving. Even today my 15:00work is evolving. Everything I do evolves.

Little Thunder: So pretty much your art experiences, aside from making that eye at Riverside in middle school or high school, they weren't too significant? Nothing stands out in your mind?

Sheridan: Nothing really, really stands out until my, basically, young adult life. Actually, it's like I had a need. I had a need. I had a desire. I wanted 16:00to learn. I wanted to learn about my Cheyenne people, what they did, how they lived, the history, the culture, the traditions, the songs, why they did this, why they used this color.

I did something one time for my daughter Helen that stays here. Well, Heather, Helen, Holly, and Hannah watched my mother really do it, but I made a smoked buckskin shawl for my daughter Helen. I was really, really proud of it. It had buckskin fringe on it. It looked like what they call tipi liner. It was beautiful. I happened to use a version of a Cheyenne woman's military stripe 17:00design that had some black in there. They said, "Why'd you use black for? Cheyennes are supposed to use bright, pretty colors!" After that, I'm really cautious about using black. I use it sparingly. That was a learning experience, but she still has that shawl today. I haven't ever seen another beaded buckskin shawl.

Little Thunder: Now, you did go to college. Where did you attend school?

Sheridan: I started out here in El Reno at the junior college when it was up at the old post office downtown. After I graduated from here, I transferred to OCU in Oklahoma City and finished up.

Little Thunder: What was your major?

Sheridan: Education. I wanted to teach, and I got the opportunity to teach after 18:00I graduated. I taught fourth and fifth grade in a open classroom out at Concho. I was out there for, like, fourteen years, and I was on adjunct staff at OCU for three years. Then when I worked for Indian Health Service, I was a community intervention specialist, and I was still teaching.

I have done conferences all over the United States. I've keynoted conferences. It was always talking about our culture relevant to wellness, our culture relevant to domestic violence, our culture relevant to alcohol and substance abuse, and I was still teaching. I'm still teaching now where I work in a 19:00different sense.

Little Thunder: So when did you sort of--and you may always have been working full-time and also doing your cultural items and your beadwork, but when did you start entering shows and entering competitive shows with your work?

Sheridan: Oh, gosh, that's really--I really can't remember, but I remember going to the different shows and seeing the work there, seeing some of the work that won. I thought that was really, really nice, and I thought my work was just as good. The first piece I ever entered, I think, was a miniature beaded Cheyenne cradle. Mom helped me with the design. She told me about the design. She's taught me everything I know about beading. The woodwork and stuff, I cut my own 20:00wood. It looked like, in the photographs, (I've got a picture of it someplace; I'll grab it in a little bit) it looked like a full-sized cradle. You couldn't tell the difference, and that won Best of Show. On the pieces--

Little Thunder: Was it here in Oklahoma at Red Earth?

Sheridan: I believe at Red Earth. I've won Best of Show at Cherokee. I've won Best of Division at Indian Market. I've gotten their Governor's Award. I don't really like expressing that part because you're not really supposed to talk about yourself like that. Behind me, that skull up there, that's my little--it's kind of heavy to lift. There's medals and ribbons.

It's not so much the competition as it's showing what my history is, what my 21:00people did. Whenever I'm fortunate to place, I feel it's representing them. It's a way of keeping their memory alive, and I'm not saying that to sound any other way. That's just the way it is with me. I believe in that spiritual aspect of self. I believe that the good that you do comes back. I believe that you should help those that can't help themselves.

I've helped a lot of people through my artwork, through donations. I've donated it to American Cancer Society, American Heart Foundation, diabetes programs, donated my artwork for various posters all over, even some organization in DC. 22:00I'm honored when they ask me to do that because in a way that's teaching, too. The theme of my drawing--they're going to have a Cheyenne-Arapaho HIV youth powwow coming up, July or so. They asked me to design a t-shirt for them. I'll show you the design a little bit later. I got it in here, the one that's going to be on their shirt. By doing that, I can help people that I don't even know.

Little Thunder: At some point, you decided to pursue a master of arts in teaching. What prompted that?

Sheridan: I felt a need to--in our ceremonies, it's like in non-Indian society. 23:00You're in grade school, go to junior high, graduate from high school, maybe go to junior college, go to college, get a bachelor's, get a master's. In our tradition, it's that way. There are certain things that you do through our traditions that bring you up within that level, Priest being the upper level and different places down.

I've participated in our ceremonies five times. Whenever asked, I paint, I sing, the drum. Help out any way I can. As far as pursuing my master's in that regard, 24:00I felt that there were other things that I could learn, different techniques yet, not that I've really used any of them, but having that appreciation of world art, the Masters, the real, you know. It's just having that appreciation for it.

Little Thunder: You talked about the importance for you of being able to actually handle and see and experience cultural items, Cheyenne cultural items. I was wondering what your first important museum exhibit was, and why it was important to you.

Sheridan: Southern Plains Museum. That is where I found pride because that's 25:00where I found pride. That's where I found humbleness. That's where I found memories.

Little Thunder: Did you deal with any galleries in Oklahoma very much during the '70s or '80s?

Sheridan: There was a gallery in Norman. I don't remember what it was. There was the standard Red Earth Gallery. There was a gallery in Santa Fe. I can't remember the name of it. There's--up in Rapid City. My work's, like, all over.

Little Thunder: Was your focus booth shows, though, or was it split between galleries and booth shows?

Sheridan: My focus was primarily, I would say, the booth shows. It allowed me to meet other people. It allowed me to make a lot of different friends. It allowed me to trade for other people's work that I admired. Even Merlin [Little Thunder] has some of my work. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Yes, we got a hand drum from you.

Sheridan: I've got some of his work. That's how it works.

Little Thunder: That is a fun thing about booth shows. Then you got an MBA in business. Did you already know you were--were you thinking about going into 27:00business for yourself at that point?

Sheridan: I definitely thought about it. I thought if I went through that, I probably might, but it was good from the standpoint of marketing and sales and all of those things that you use as a independent artist. You do your own marketing. You do a lot of the MBA first chapter 101 stuff, you know?

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs)

Sheridan: The same all over.

Little Thunder: That is the hard part, I think. The business part of art is sometimes the hardest part. What was difficult for you?

Sheridan: I think some of the collectors, from attorneys to doctors--there's 28:00different kinds of collectors. There's those that really appreciate it, your work, and they understand it, and then there's those collectors that think they're at a garage sale. That was the hardest part, working with those collectors, so I gradually didn't go to them anymore. I didn't need to.

Little Thunder: You had your own store for a while, right?

Sheridan: Yes, just, it wasn't for very long. It was just a try.

Little Thunder: Were you working a nine-to-five job while you had the store, too?

Sheridan: Yes.

Little Thunder: What were the challenges of that? (Laughs)

Sheridan: Finding extra time to do the things you needed to do to make it a success. Had my children (they were younger) then. It was fun. I think now that I'm an elder, I think I could do it. I think I could do it primarily on my own inventory. Starting small, I think I could do it, getting other people's inventory like the other galleries do, on consignment. I'm pretty sure I could, but I'm working again, now. I retired after twenty-nine years, twenty-nine weeks, twenty-nine days for Indian Health Service. Then I went back to work.

Little Thunder: Well, congratulations. (Laughs) That's a lot. You won First 30:00Place at Santa Fe Indian Market here not too long ago, 2007, for a piece called Pipe Woman Purse. Can you talk a bit about your inspiration for that piece?

Sheridan: I got a picture of it back there I can grab if you want to pause. I'll get it in a little bit.

Little Thunder: Sure.

Sheridan: This is the purse that you were talking about. It can be found on the internet. Type in "Frank Sheridan Cheyenne purse." You can also type in "Frank Sheridan Cheyenne horse mask." I've seen a lot of purses that were beaded and stuff, and I specialize in rawhide. I specialize in drawing on rawhide. 31:00Rawhide's really hard to draw on because of the surface of the skin. It's like drawing on sandpaper, and in order to get a smooth line you have to, like, sometimes make your heart stop and go so you don't shake. What it was, I wanted to do something that was a little different that represented the Cheyenne-ness of what we do.

Among our people, there were ways for courting. I've heard some of those stories, and of course, I did a courting scene. Then on each side for balance (as a artist, you know, you balance) I put two abstract parfleche designs from about 1880-something. I put tipis at the top. He's playing a flute for his lady. She's standing there in a shawl and her cloth dress. She has a parasol. People would say, "How come you put parasols, umbrellas?" Well, when they would go on 32:00raids, they would come back, and maybe there's a parasol or something. They would hand out the good sprinklies, and that's why she had the parasol. It must be a serious courting because he's got trade goods on the ground, he's got a bucket, he's got a horse there. Then on the sides of the purse, the strap going up, that's a rawhide line that has a red cloth backing on the back.

I have simulated tobacco ties. I have old eagle quarters. It's beaded in that military stripe design, all kinds of bells and whistles, so to speak. It has rolled fringe on each of the four corners, really long hand-rolled fringe, bells. It's lined with calico, and there's serrated deer dew claws on it. It's a piece that, as I was working on it, I was listening to--in my studio, as you 33:00could tell when you came in, I have all kinds of music going, and I was listening to some of our ceremonial music from recordings from Cheyenne Sun Dance. It just kept going and going and going and going. Anyway, it finally ended up finished, and I was honored to have won that. On the back side of this purse, there was a drawing of a Cheyenne Dog Soldier sitting with one hip on a rock, holding his bow, had his shield, got that typical Cheyenne suave, you know, like, "Come on!" (Laughter) That was a privilege doing that.

The strap on that was similar to this one. This is one that I use sometimes. 34:00It's got a version of the military stripe, the horsehair tassels. On my stuff, I use actual tobacco and things that we use. On stuff I sell, I don't. It's just simulated. Elk's tooth, little turtle. Any time I use a turtle, it is for my mother. She has a turtle collection that you would not believe. (Laughter) Actually, some other stuff I'll show you after while, we'll be going along that direction, but that's the purse.

This is the cradle board I was telling you about, the cut beads. This is the one Mom told me how to bead, helped me with the design. This is another example of my ledger drawing. After I won the award at First Peoples Fund, a couple years 35:00later I donated one of my drawings for their program, and that's one of my drawings. I have fun doing that. Any time I'm asked, I'm more than glad to donate my work. It's blessed me, as any artist, financially.

More recent, this past November, I was contacted by Emil Her Many Horses' museum in DC's Smithsonian National Museum. To this day, I don't know how he found me because when I retired, I dropped out of sight. No one knew where I was. He called me one day in my office out there and explained it. He said, "I have a 36:00commission for you at five thousand dollars if you can do me five of your ledger drawings, no restrictions, however you want to be represented." I'm like, "Okay." That was a pleasure because the drawings I did were really representative of Cheyenne. I think they were the best drawings I ever did, and it was a five-thousand-dollar commission.

Little Thunder: And they were going to the National Museum of the American Indian?

Sheridan: Yes, the permanent collection. As a token of appreciation, I gifted Mr. Her Many Horses two of my original ledger drawings.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a little bit about your approach to ledger drawings? They've been pretty popular. A lot of artists have been doing ledger art.

Sheridan: First of all, on my original, my old, old, old-style contemporary interpretation, this is some of the paper that I use. It's out of Mom's collection, what she has, some of the actual ledger names that were written by the Indian agents as the Cheyennes turned themselves in as they came in. In those ledgers, there were some blank pages. My supply is really, really limited. Some of those pages, there's places where the Indian agent, or whoever was writing, tested their pen to the back, and I can use parts of those pages. Some of these names on here, Henry Bear, Thomas Bear Above, Bear Behind, it's got his wife, it's got his children, got his grandchildren, dating back to 1888, 1884. 38:00That's the type of genealogy that my mother does.

While we're on the subject of the ledger drawings, this is one of my ledger drawings. It's a Cheyenne warrior scene. The top rider has the traditional Cheyenne upright bonnet. He's carrying a lance. He has a ribbon flowing off of his war bonnet. He has on a captured cavalry jacket that he took the sleeves off to make the vest. He's got arm bands on. He's got his shield on. He's got his trailer of broadcloth coming down with the eagle feathers on it. His horse tail 39:00is wrapped with red cloth. There's medicine feathers on his horse's forehead.

The bottom rider has a tailed war bonnet, basically the same thing. Has his braids, has breastplate, horse's tail. The ears, the Cheyenne would split their pony's ears as a way of endearment. A lot of the other tribal ledger drawings, they don't do that. The Cheyennes were the only ones, if you look at the old ones. This is done with waterproof technical inks. I've used crayons as they were done with originally. I've used all types of material. This is mainly the work I'm known for. It's in a traditional style but my contemporary adaptation of it.

This is one that I need to paint. This is a battle scene. It's six Cheyenne warriors, various state of riding horses. Some of them carry coup sticks with eagle feathers, enemy lances, the straight-up war bonnet, the horse tracks. It's in that style of the original ledger drawings, and as you can see, the Pipe Woman signature. Sometimes I'll do my drawings with half horses coming out here because that's the way they were done. Another one real quickly, this one was a t-shirt design that I need to paint. It's a Cheyenne Warrior, the abstract, 41:00parfleche designs on the side. The two tracks are buffalo tracks. He's carrying a crook lance. He has a captured saber hanging in front of him. He's got his bow case decorated with ermine tail, eagle feathers, again, signed "Pipe Woman."

Little Thunder: Really nice.

Sheridan: This is one that I drew and donated to--Nancy Johnson is a social worker with Indian Health Service. She's been working with Gloria Zuniga out at Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribes. Nancy put some money with Gloria's program, HIV money, and part of that money they're going to use to sponsor this youth powwow. They asked me if I would donate a drawing for their t-shirt, so this is going to be 42:00the drawing for the Cheyenne-Arapaho Youth HIV Powwow.

Again, it's one of my contemporary-style ledger drawings interpretation. This is normally how I do the abstract parfleche design I have on there. This, specifically, is part of a Cheyenne parfleche design. The ladies have Cheyenne-smoked buckskin dresses. They have parasols. The hair is so clean, it's shiny. That's the shiny streaks in it. The older, taller lady has Cheyenne crosses on hers. The smaller, younger child has mountains on hers. They have their pouch sets, knife case, awl case. I did this within, like, two evenings because I had responsibilities of work and I knew it was coming up. That's 43:00called working under pressure. I'm sure Merlin's done that before. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That'll be a great t-shirt.

Sheridan: This is one of my favorite interpretations. That's a Cheyenne Dog Soldier, straight-up war bonnet, his bow case, ledger ponies with split ears, that abstract parfleche design, arrow sticking in the ground, captured enemy saber.

Little Thunder: That's gorgeous.

Sheridan: One more. The wording on here, this was a t-shirt design. What it is, it's a Cheyenne woman in a dentalium dress. Sleeves are beaded. She's holding a 44:00wing fan. There's willow leaves, willow branches on the side of her, her camp behind her. There's dragonflies in the willows. She's sitting on a blanket, and the words in front of it are, "Heaven, Clouds, Health, Well-Being, Exist. It is that way." (Sings in Sioux) Sioux words, Sioux song, that's the translation of 45:00it, like someone gets well in sweat, someone's praying. You want them to get well. That's an example of the songs we use in sweat.

I've done this drawing one time before, similar. I called it Waits For Him. What that was symbolic of was when my brother was in Vietnam, he was a door gunner. My mother, as well as other Cheyenne mothers, would pray, and fathers and grandfathers go to peyote meetings. The title of the drawing I did similar was called Waits For Him, representing my mother waiting for her son to come home.

Ledger drawings, traditionally, were done after exploits that the warriors did, war exploits. In our Cheyenne society today, you're not supposed to say anything 46:00unless it's that way. Traditionally, in the drawings, they couldn't depict something if it wasn't that way. They didn't realize it at the time, but it was recording history like we're doing with this. There's a lot of different interpretations, but that's some of my ledger drawings.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing those.

Sheridan: I didn't mean to go that long, but--. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: No, it was great. When you were nominated for that First Peoples Community Spirit Award (and it goes specifically to Native artists who are really community-centered and involved with their communities) you were nominated by another bead artist, Teri Greeves, who's a very well-known bead 47:00worker as well. How did you find out you were nominated?

Sheridan: I got a letter from First Peoples Fund.

Little Thunder: You didn't know.

Sheridan: No. They said the selection was based off of the time when I was working for Indian Health Service. Me and Nancy Johnson and Harold Barst worked with a group of Vietnam combat veterans that were in outpatient treatment for combat-related post-traumatic stress disorder, and we would meet with them twice a week. It takes a while before any of the veterans in that group would really open up, but over three or four years that we worked with them, they got real close. We'd sit with them, listen to them, their stories, hear them cry, hear 48:00them pray. We'd have sweats for them pretty regularly, and that was the basis of being community-oriented. Two years later, Nancy was nominated for that same award by me for basically the same and working with that combat veterans group.

I've got a lot of respect for veterans. I'm not a veteran myself. My uncle recently passed. He was a Korean War veteran. He participated in Pork Chop Hill, and my youngest daughter Hannah's in the Navy right now. That flag you see hanging there, that blue star, back during the Second World War, you would see blue stars and gold stars, gold star mothers--anyway. I don't know how I got off on that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Since you mentioned Hannah and her service, you told me a 49:00wonderful story about your beaded horse mask. It's taken this whole journey since you made it, but you started off winning a prize with that one, too. Maybe can you just start with talking about that?

Sheridan: I'm the only Cheyenne artist I know that is making horse masks. My first awareness of a horse mask--I've got the book someplace I can't recall. I've had a lot of things going on this past week. There was a mask that came up for auction that was found in a book, and the provenance on it, it was made by a Cheyenne woman for her husband. There's a actual photograph of that mask on a 50:00horse. I believe you might know what I'm referring to. I've got it in one of my books up here. I'll grab the book.

My first association with Cheyenne horse masks came when I was looking on the internet, and I saw this mask that was in a box. I tried to do some more research on it, and then I found out about this book on American Indian horse masks. I ordered it, and in reading about it I found out that mask was made by--there was a man, his name was He Bear. It was made by his wife. Her name was Buffalo Wallow Woman. That really gave me pride because I had seen them before, 51:00and I never knew how to make one. No one ever said, "Frankie, make your mask like this. You do this."

What I did at first, I've got one started someplace, but I don't want to pause no more. (Laughter) What I did at first, I made a pattern. With that pattern, I went up to the vet, and they had some horses. "Would you mind if I tried this on your horse?" "What?" "Would you mind--." (Laughter) They let me, and I modified my pattern to where it fit over the eyes.

After I did that, I brung the mask back. Then, that cognitive process, how is a mask made? Well, one, it's got to be on buckskin. Two, it's got to be decorated. In looking at some of these, I found one really, really, really similar to the one I did. What I liked about it was the fact that it had all of these antique 52:00buttons on it, military jacket buttons, and I'm known for using antique military jacket buttons. This is the one that I saw, so that was inspiration.

That mask, you can see on the internet. Type in "Frank Sheridan Cheyenne horse mask." I beaded it. After I beaded it, I thought, "What's next?" Well, you've got to put the horns on there. People say, "When you do horns, use glass." No! You got to use power tools. I had a grinder, and it took about three hours, seriously, just to get the outer layers off and get it kind of smooth then sand it smooth again. Then after that, cutting it. Then after cutting it, cutting it 53:00off. Interesting about horn, when you cut it right down the middle, you've got a duplicate image. If the horn's curving this way, when you do the other side--. Those are the horse masks up there.

No one showed me how to put them on. I figured out how to put them on, how they had to have put them on. The next step was--there's more to it than that. I found that on a horse mask there's the front panel, the front part where the eyes and beadwork and horse is. There's two side panels where the fringe and everything is on both sides, and then there's a nose panel. You put those on. After that was all done, you can see all the back side. That's not good.

I took it to a seamstress and asked if she could sew red material on there, so 54:00she did the red material for me. Then I brung it back and I sat--I've had this table forty years, okay. It's a old Sun Dance table that we left down at work, and I put a piece of plywood board on it. Anyway, I got my Sun Dance paint and used the colors on it just like you see it there, the red and green, and did the tie straps. It was done; showed it a few places. It was on the internet. It's still listed as ten thousand dollars, what I wanted.

I had two serious offers for eight thousand, but I don't know because of the thing of there's those collectors who think they're at a garage sale. It's not a garage sale. It took a while. My Aunt Eloise (you know her) Rice, she had a 55:00memorial dance for her mother, Grandma Elsie. She wanted to use Hannah as Honored Veteran, so we told Hannah. Hannah came home. As Cheyennes, we're taught, one, when you honor someone, give the best you have. Give the best you have, so we got all the other stuff, the shawls, the Pendletons, everything. Then I got my daughter here, and I got my mom and her sisters, and I got that mask down. I said, "Hannah, I love you very, very, very much. I'm going to give this away for you." "Daddy, no!" "It's going to be that way." We go to the dance; she brings colors in and all that.

I also gave away--when they used to give away rifles, they would give away .22s. 56:00I'm the first one that gave away a semi-automatic assault weapon with a bayonet on it. I did that. I've seen that happen before. For Hannah, two things I gave away, the best I had, I gave away that brand new SKS to Eddie Wilson because on the staff that Hannah carried, this family crook staff, behind my bustle there's a enemy NVA helmet that was picked up at Ia Drang Valley. I had that on there as a war trophy. Eddie Wilson was a medic at Ia Drang Valley. He survived it. After 57:00that, before I gave away that mask, I called Eddie up and had someone carry it around, traditional Cheyenne style, holler four times, present it. He cried because I told his war story for him.

Then I said, "I've got something very special to give away for my daughter Hannah Shyela Sheridan. I'm very proud of her. Her grandmother, her sisters, her aunt. At this time, the person I'm going to call is not here, but we want to honor him, and because he's not here, we're going to mail it to him. At this time, I would like a representative for Phillip White Man Jr. come up and receive this gift." At that dance, the last item to be given away for Hannah 58:00Shyela, my daughter who's in the Navy, stationed in Florida--she's a Master at Arms. When the ships go out and she's on a boat, she mans the twin .50s. She likes that. I called out, I said, "At this time, I would like a representative for Phillip White Man Jr. from Montana, come shake hands with my daughter and receive this gift." People were just shocked because you give your best. That's how I'm taught. You give your best. Gave away a brand new, it was an AK-47 with bayonet and that mask. I told them, "He's not here, so we're going to mail it to him."

I got pictures of Hannah holding it and all that. Then we took her to the city 59:00square, and we had it packaged. She wrote a little note in there, and we mailed it and told Phillip why I did it. In turn, he thanked me and all that. This dance was, I think, it was in the fall. Then Denver March coming up, it was a little before that. Phillip's step-daughter, him, and his wife (I forget her name), she had just come back from her second combat tour in Afghanistan. She's a warrior woman. In turn, Phillip gave that mask away for his daughter at Denver March Powwow. He put that mask on a pony, led it into the arena. I wasn't there, but he and other people told me, "You could've heard a pin drop."

That's what Cheyennes are taught to do. Some people might interpret that as, "You're just showing off." No. It's, "What are you willing to give to get what you ask the Creator for?" I'm willing to give--. When I prayed for my mother, that she come home, I told Maheo, "I'm willing to give part of my life that my mother can come home again." That's what we're taught as Cheyenne with that same concept. That's what I did with Hannah, giving that away. I'm the only one that 61:00I know of that makes these masks. I've got two others up there. The one in the middle is where I had that. I was offered eight thousand dollars two times for it, and I didn't do it.

I have another story. When I went to Eiteljorg [Museum], I did a Cheyenne boy's bow case similar to this one. This is the strap that's going to go on it. It was beaded and decorated. Same thing: It won First, Best of Category, whatever it was. It won. One man came by twice. First time, "How much?" I let him look at it. He said he'd be back. Second time he came by, he said, "I have eight thousand dollars cash I'll give you for that bow case." I said, "Sir, I really, 62:00really appreciate you showed me eight thousand dollars cash, but I can't. I'm sorry. I have to have ten." He said, "If I go, I'm not going to come back." I told him, "Well, I appreciate it very, very much."

That Christmas, I gave that to my grandson because I've got my grandfather's shirt in there. That's my prized possession. Someday, that bow case with the ribbons and everything that went with it, that's going to be my grandson's prized possession. He's fourteen now. That was when he was still a little kid. That's part of that--in a sense, these are like material things, but it's a gift that God gave me. To show him I'm thankful for that gift, I give.

We had a sweat here for my daughter or someone. I had a mate to this knife. This is a Cheyenne bear jaw knife. Someone came to pray for, I think it was my daughter when we was sitting down here eating. Those kind of sweats, we'd give away. I said, "We've got a visitor here that came a long ways to pray for my daughter. At this time, I want him to come up and accept--." It was the other knife case for my daughter. My daughter just went--she got well. That's what I was willing to give. I'm not anyone special. That's the way I was taught by my mother that's hopefully going to recuperate more in there from the stories she 64:00told me from Sand Creek about her mom, about her grandma, about her dad, about her mother, about her brother. I'm just thankful to Maheo that she's home.

We're going to work with hospice starting Monday, and long as I have her, I'm never going to leave her. She's my queen. That's how come I dropped out. I don't do shows anymore. I've got someone very, very special in there. I was telling my daughters, "If this was a long time ago and our camp was attacked and your grandma got hurt or got shot, you would tell the man, Helen, you would tell 65:00Tommy, 'Take Christian and Hayden. Go on. I'll be okay.' Holly, you would tell your man, 'Take Hazel. Take Harper. You'll be okay. Go on. I'm going to stay with my grandma.' You girls would have grabbed her. You would have taken her off in the brush someplace, protected her. That's what you're doing right now. That's what you're doing. You may not realize it. You didn't leave her."

Philosophically, traditionally, we look at things differently. That's just like, I've been ordering some books, (I'm an elder now) really good books I know of for my daughters. I knew this lady. She would come over and visit my grandpa, 66:00and they would sit outside and drink coffee and talk in Cheyenne. She lived two streets down. I knew Joe. I knew Clark. I knew his brother. I knew Kathy. I knew Maude.

I have a photograph that was taken at Southern Plains Museum of my mother in a buckskin dress, two other ladies in a buckskin dress, Mary Inkanish in a buckskin dress. I've got that picture. I've ordered another book. The set of this, I had the originals. Someone borrowed them and never returned them. I'm never going to loan my books again. (Laughs) A lot of the stuff that I've learned, I passed it to a lot of people.

Years ago, there was a northern Cheyenne man. He was mom's grandpa, Wesley White Man. He was the last Cheyenne contrary. When he passed away, through his family he told them that he had some medicine that he wanted me to have it. I asked around first because I was kind of scared of it. I asked Roy Bull Coming and others. Roy said, "I know what that old man has. He must think a lot of you. Take it."

When I did take it, (and they gave me his pipe) I took it up to the hospital, stood in front of mom, prayed with it. I handed it to her. She looked at it, and 68:00she went. (Gestures) She looked out her window. She held it out. I told you, she had one foot over. She said, "This is my grandfather's medicine. He wanted Frankie to have it. Frankie's helped a lot of people with it. Maybe he can help me with it." Then she closed her hand, and she doctored herself with it. She don't know how to do that. Traditions like that. I don't normally tell that story, but it is a strong medicine.

I've made pipes for people. My Grandpa Allen, a long time ago made my first pipe, Allen Bushyhead. I was really proud. He said, "Don't make any more just 69:00yet." He said, "I'm going to take you somewhere." Next week, he come over. He said, "Get in." He took me to Longdale to see that Red Hat, that old man Arrow Keeper. He talked to him in Cheyenne. On the way up there, he was telling me a long time ago there were certain people in our tribe who used to make these. They are very powerful. He said, "I love my grandchildren, my children. At the time I don't want anything to happen to them. I'm going to take you to this Arrow Keeper, ask permission." He got a grocery basket and all that. I had an extra pipe, and he took me up there. He talked to him in Cheyenne and looked at the pipe I made.

When I Sun Danced back in '70, '71, '72, '73, and '85, the pipe I used, I made myself. I still have that pipe. My son's pipe when he went in, I made it. The 70:00pipe that Holly's going to use, I made hers. Anyway, my story. That old man looked at it, and he talked in Cheyenne to Grandpa Allen. Then he looked at me. He said, "Your grandpa is right. Certain people used to make these. I'm going to give you permission to make them for our ceremonial people." He said, "When you make them, just pray for that person you're making it for, and through that you'll get a blessing." I don't tell that story, but I was given permission to make pipes by that old man Red Hat. I do a little bit of everything.

It's all a spiritual process. Whenever I am doing work, I go into that place where these things belong, even through the music I listen to. Sometimes I need 71:00to get away from that place. It gets a little strong, so I put on my reggae or my Motown--back here by myself dancing. (Laughter) Then I get back to it.

One of the things that Morning Star's camp, ("battle of the Washita," like they say in the movies) after they raided these places, all those things of Cheyenne beauty, they got them, and they burned them. I'm trying to keep a little of those people alive. I never really call myself an artist. It's just something I 72:00do. My children are picking it up, my daughter Helen. My grandson Christian made a box at Red Earth last time I did it, years ago. He won First Place in it. All my children can do something. It's just something I really, really enjoy doing. I believe that I was destined to do what I do, but Mama had to be part of it. Every- thing happened when it was supposed to happen. Through the stuff I do--

Little Thunder: Nobody else is making these.

Sheridan: Yes. There's burial flag display boxes, the wooden ones, and all that. 73:00Our Indian boys, they fought. This is something from the heart that's traditional. My brother's flag is laying on a bed of sage. Recently, Sam Hart's widow, Delores Hart, had a birthday, and I had just finished one. I asked his daughter who I work with, "Jenny, what was his rank?" I knew he was in the Marines, not Marines, Corpsmen. Anyway, I wrote "United States Marines, Samuel (his middle initial) Hart," when he was born, when he passed away. I put it in a nice gift bag, put a bow on it. I called her daughter, told her to give it to her mom for her birthday. That's what we're taught to do: give.

Maybe through that, maybe God remembered that, and that's how come my mother got to come home. Maybe all these things I've donated, God remembers, and he's given my mother a little more time. Maybe he's going to help me with my back. If I have to do my back surgery again, I would, but I know I'll never be the same. I'm limited in what I can do, but I thank God I can do what I can do and still do my artwork. It's always a privilege and a honor to do anything relating to our Cheyenne people. Next question.

Little Thunder: You've said so many good things. I guess it would be whatever 75:00you'd like to add that you don't think we've covered.

Sheridan: There's an item that you see standing up by the TV. There's a black handkerchief hanging on it. It's beaded. It's over eight foot long. When I was at the Denver Art Museum, that's on the websites that supposedly is a Cheyenne Dog Soldier sash. In that museum, it says, "Cheyenne? Arapaho? Sioux?" No one actually knows. I was a mentor to Nancy Johnson. She does some beautiful 76:00beadwork. My mom adopted her in our family. She gave her a Cheyenne family name, Hestâhkêha'e, Twin Woman. She's a mother of twins.

We did a joint project through her First Peoples Fund Award. She got the materials to make two Cheyenne-style Dog Soldier sashes. It took over a year, on and off. It's lined on the back with red material. There's symbolic things on it. There's medicines on them. She did hers to honor her dad who was William 77:00Jimmy. He was Choctaw-Chickasaw, and during the Korean War he was a machine gunner. He fought at Pork Chop Hill.

When I was doing mine, I was doing it to represent my brother Johnny Botone and to honor my uncle who I'm named after, Frank Thomas Sheridan. In doing the research, we found out that Nancy's father fought at Pork Chop Hill. He never told anyone. We found that out. I found out that my Uncle Frank fought at Pork Chop Hill. He never told anyone. We found out, and we made these sashes. Down at the bottom, there's even that earth peg that they stick themselves to the ground 78:00with. I'll go back there and hold it up a little bit.

Little Thunder: Or I can even take a picture. I'll take a camera, and we'll take a still picture.

Sheridan: This warrior sash is similar to one that's in the Denver Art Museum. As I said, mine was done to honor my brother Johnny Botone, my uncle Frank Thomas Sheridan, and now that my daughter's in the military (she wasn't at the time) it honors her down to the earth peg when they stick themselves in. Among warriors, Cheyenne Dog Soldiers, they would make a vow if they were in dire straits, peg themselves out, and make a vow to fight there. Some other cultures do that. Some of the Eastern cultures do that, tie their legs up and stuff.

The interesting part about this, there was two made. If you put them both together, you couldn't tell who made them, me or Nancy. The thing about it, we had permission. What she was going to do with hers, we was going to put a tipi out here. We was going to call chiefs and societies and feed them, and she was going to give hers to the Dog Soldiers. They don't have one. We were going out to see--I'm just going to say it. He's my brother, Chester. We was going to set it up, tell him about it. In fact, took it out there for him to see. He said, "Nope, they don't want it." "What?" "They don't want it. If they want one, we'll 80:00go get the one out of the museum."

Made Nancy cry. I said, "I'll tell you what, that one's yours now. It belongs in your family." Part of that tradition that my family gave her, she was expressing it through that gift. That was going to be her horse mask that she gave to the Dog Soldiers to honor her father who's passed away. They stepped all over it. Sometimes it happens that way. I don't know if they were jealous or she was a 81:00different tribe. We went through our own little ceremony in doing these, starting prayer, putting out food--

Different reasons was, "You don't know the ceremony." So what? Who of these priests know every ceremony back? In naming ceremonies, Sun Dance isn't the only place you can do them. You can have your private ceremonies. They missed out. It's just like this. We have a lot of warriors in the military. My son's a Dog Soldier. I gave this one to him. No one knows that story. I was there. I saw it. If it wasn't that way, I wouldn't say it, but I know my brother, and I don't know his reasons other than, "Nope, they don't want it." She was going to feed 82:00them, pay for everything, give them gifts.

So that's the story behind this. That's the story of that tradition, passing on tradition, trying to live a traditional lifestyle, and for whatever reason, someone--. It was a gift. Hours and hours and hours and expense and prayer and prayer and prayer. It was like, "Your prayers weren't good enough." Maybe that person--I love him, he's my brother, but maybe he just knows something I don't know. I can't say. Who am I to say? But that's the story behind this, and I wouldn't say it if it wasn't that way.

I've got a lot of respect for him. Just like Gordon. Day before Mom came home, 83:00Helen went over to his house. He come up, and he doctored mom with red material. She came home the next day. She's home right now. That's the story of Frank Pipe Woman Sheridan. I also do women's saddles, Cheyenne saddles. I've beaded one before.

Little Thunder: You got a picture in there?

Sheridan: It's not a very good picture, but there it is, one that I beaded before. You might have to zoom in on it.

Little Thunder: Oh, I see it, yes.

Sheridan: The buckskin shirt next to it, that's the reproduction of my grandfather's shirt in the bedroom in there. I sold that one for five thousand dollars to a collector out of Colorado. I'm at the point now to where I'm not selling any more of my better works. I'm keeping them for heirlooms. I've won, I've placed, I don't need to do that anymore. I will eventually.

Little Thunder: I'm glad they are going to your family. All right, thank you so much for your time today, Frank.

Sheridan: I didn't mean to talk that long. (Laughter) Almost a couple hours. Didn't mean to use up all your tape!

Little Thunder: No. (Laughs)

------- End of interview -------