Oral history interview with Ronald Rice, Jr.

Tibbs: My name is Kyle Tibbs, and I am in Pawnee, Oklahoma, at the home of Ronald Rice Jr. I'm doing this for Native American Art Class and for the Oklahoma State University Oral History Project. Can I get you to tell us your name?

Rice: Ronald James Rice Jr.

Tibbs: Where you're from?

Rice: Pawnee, Oklahoma.

Tibbs: What is your tribal background?

Rice: Three-fourths Pawnee, a fourth Potawatomi, and a fourth Ioway.

Tibbs: We're here today to talk about the importance and the significance of the drum, and how and why it is so very important and sacred to the cultural continuity of Native Americans. The drum is also known as the big drum, or in movies in Hollywood it is also called the War Dance drum. I would just like to ask, what is the actual true meaning of the drum or the essence of where it 1:00comes from?

Rice: Growing up, we were told things about drum, and they reference to a long time ago when we had to hunt for our food, and gather, things like that. We were told that there was a prayer that went along with everything. A lot of times, we needed animals for food and clothing and then also a drum. That prayer, that's a big part of it because we want things to go good for us in the process. Try to apply that to today, the process of making a drum, to incorporate prayers into 2:00our thoughts and even during, before, and after the process.

Tibbs: Why is the drum so important as far as coming from creation time up until now? What has changed, and what hasn't changed, as far as the way we use the drum, the way our people see the drum?

Rice: Today, it seems like there's more powwows and, I'd say, contests whereas in the past it was more ceremonial use. Our tribe, Pawnees, we have visitation where our Wichita relatives that come up from down south, they stay up here. That drum, it's the focal point of our doings and our ceremonies while they're 3:00here. We have hand games, and dances, and there's all kinds of family songs. To me, there are still things that go on like that and ceremonial dances, but there's a lot more, I'd say, where it's not just one tribe. It's a mix of all tribes at powwows. It's even real competitive today. There's contests, singing contests, and there's big money in it, too, for our singers and stuff.

There is a big difference between what you're going to be singing for and what the drum is going to be actually used for. A lot of times it could be used for all of that. That's part of that prayer, that it's going to help or make someone feel good. That's what it's intended for, to lift the spirits up. It's got a 4:00good spirit in it. That's what our folks told us. When you get around it, we would refer to it like we were going to church, try to dress that way, appropriately, around it.

We even referred to it as "Grandpa." We called it Uppit in Pawnee. That's how we were supposed to treat it, real respectable around it, like you was around your grandpa or an old man. You want to be gentle with it, but at the same time you want to give it your all while you're around it because there's that spirit in there. When you really get to feeling that spirit, it can lift people up. Maybe there's ones out there that can't dance or can't get up, can't move around. 5:00Maybe they want to be out there, but that drum and the songs are going to lift them up. Then at the same time, it's going to make those dancers move. People are going to see that, and it's going to have, like, a ripple effect through the whole area that surrounds it. That spirit inside it's going to come alive.

Tibbs: I would also like for you to talk about, like, the living spirit of the animal hide in the wood and all things that have a spirit. Talk about the belief and the wholeness and the oneness with all of creation that the drum kind of represents.

Rice: That's basically what it is. It's a spirit. Even though we may have taken the animal's life for the hide, we still believe it's alive because of that spirit that it has. Then it's got the wood that's inside of it that was a living 6:00thing at one time, too. It has its own spirit. We believe that it's still alive and that if you take real good care of it, it's going to take you a lot of places. It's going to take care of you. It's going to keep you fed, just take care of you. Take you to different places, places you never believed you would be at. That's how special that drum is and the spirit in it. That's how real it is. Sometimes you don't know where it's going to take you in your life, but it'll take you a lot of different places far away from home, and meet different people, and make acquaintances and friends. Learn a lot from it.

Tibbs: I'd also like to ask you how did you got started making drums, or what 7:00was your family influence? Did you have any relatives that also made drums?

Rice: Yeah, I had a couple different grandpas that made drums. I had some uncles that made drums. What's, I guess you would say, different about the way I learned is that my folks had all gone on that did make drums, so there wasn't a lot of hands-on, I guess you could say, that they could pass on to me, seeing and knowing what it's all about and all into it. I always just wanted to make one for our group and to do it myself. I always thought it would be an awesome thing to do to construct one. That's what I set out to do was to try to make a drum. I kind of just had to learn on my own, aside from the things I picked up 8:00from different ones that had made a drum. I just kind of, I guess you might say, threw myself into it, worked out the kinks as I learned. I kind of showed myself. That's how much belief I have in the drum growing up, and what it's done for me, and what I wanted to learn from it.

It took a couple tries, but after I'd gone through the trials and the errors, it came out real nice. I learned a lot of patience and just different things about it. Then, even going into prayer and asking God for help with the structure of it, the designs, and having a calm attitude about it and a good attitude, 9:00knowing that it would no doubt affect people's lives later on down the road. It wasn't just that day or the next day, but maybe years to come. That spirit can uplift people. Not only that, but maybe my children might sit around it one day, too, and do the same thing for their folks, or their tribe, or their relatives.

Tibbs: What type of materials is usually incorporated in making a drum? What can they usually be made from, as far as what kind of wood, what kind of different hides can you use?

Rice: Well, from what I've learned, you can use a lot of different materials. You can use different animal hides, buffalo, cowhide, horsehide, I've heard, 10:00elk, and deer. Just about any big game hide, I guess, that you can skin and de-hair and stretch, you should be able to make a drum out of it. Even the materials, I've heard of different ones using metal rings for the cylinder. Some people use wood planks, kind of like an apple barrel. Back in the day, they used to use apple barrels and tie drums around them, or metal pots. Cut the bottom off and then tie the drum around it. Nowadays, there's all kinds of materials. I've seen a Plexiglas drum, a clear one. It might have been a marching band bass drum or something like that that they tied up. Yeah, you can just about use anything that's going to be a solid enough circular drum ring, and then any kind 11:00of animal hide.

Tibbs: What kind of material did you use on the last drum you actually tied?

Rice: The last drum I made, I used a ring, a plywood ring and then slats, kind of like the apple barrel concept but more up and down. We wrapped it in a paneling and then stretched the hide around it. I guess there's even ways where they'll soak a flat piece of wood, and then they'll bend it in a circle, and it will dry out so that it's just one whole piece.

Tibbs: How do you normally have to prepare the hide and the lace? What's the process as far as, say you get a hide and it has the hair on it, and you want to 12:00get it ready to tie up a drum? What's the process there you have to go through in order to--

Rice: Well, if you don't have to skin the animal and you just get the hide, you're going to more than likely get it with some of the remains on the inside. You're going to have to stretch it out and skin all the fat and everything from the inside down to the skin. Skin it clean. Then, there's two different methods that I've heard of. The one I used was using lye and water. You soak that hair, actually the whole thing. You soak it in the lye and the water, and it takes a couple days. It loosens up the hair, the lye does, and then the hair will come out, fall out. You have to scrape it all out, too. From there, you just keep 13:00washing your raw hide until it's clean enough to work with. The other process of it they use (I guess it's an older method) is the charcoals. They use hot charcoals. They'll roll the hide in that, and I guess it takes the hair off. It takes it out. No matter which way you go, there's a lot of work in cleaning your own hide and de-hairing it. It's a lot harder than it looks, (Laughs) to say the least. Then, dealing with the smell, the aroma, is a lot to deal with, a lot to handle.

Tibbs: Is there any type of special tools or anything that you use as far as being able to cut the materials, or just a lot of time and patience?

Rice: Yeah, that and a real good, sharp knife, a lot of premeditating as far as measurements go because not all hides are the same. It's not like you have an outline to go by. You have to take your time. Then it's real flimsy. It's all wet and slippery, so it's kind of hard to work with. You have to have a real sharp knife and a steady hand.

Tibbs: As far as your tribe, since you're Pawnee, how does your tribe usually use the drum? Do you guys have different dances, or what kind of ceremonies do you guys have?

Rice: Yeah, I touched on it a little bit. We have our Wichita visitation, so the 15:00[inaudible] dance. We alternate. We'll go down there one year, then the next year, they'll come up here and camp for a week. We play hand game, and then we have a dance on the last day. The drum is a big part of that. We have other ceremonies in our tribe that we use the drum for. Not only that, but we have a real big celebration for our veterans here at Pawnee. We've been having it for quite some years now. It's the main thing of that dance, is the drum. I heard someone say, "Without it, there wouldn't be no dance, no dancers." It's the heartbeat of our ceremonies and our dances. It's right in the center. That's where it sits for us. It's the main piece. We also have tail dances over here in 16:00our round house in Pawnee. It's the same thing there. We treat it with respect. We even feed our singers first. That's part of how much we respect them for coming to be around the drum. We know if it weren't for the drum and the singers, we wouldn't be able to have no dances.

Tibbs: I'd also like to ask you, how often do you make a drum? Do you usually make one once a year? Do you usually make them in the springtime, or when's the best time to make a drum?

Rice: Well, I'm sure there's many different answers for that. Myself, I don't claim to know everything about making drums, even the reasons for why people do 17:00or when they do. Myself, I've been told that a lot of times they made drums in the wintertime because of the smell, dealing with the raw flesh, that it was easier to work with it because it was cold out, and that smell wouldn't bother you so much. Nowadays, you can acquire commercial hides, and there is no smell. You can make them in the summertime or springtime, whenever. I would say it's a good idea to make a new one with maybe the start of a new season.

Also, sometimes I may not make a drum for a while. I'll go maybe even a year or two without making one, and then maybe one year make two or three in the same 18:00month. It just varies. I guess need, demand. Sometimes people are looking for drums. When you're wanting one, wanting to buy one, I guess, or wanting to get one on a kind of trade or something. Then also, maybe you might need a new drum. Sometimes, just like anything, they get old. Maybe you have to repair it or fix a new one to use. Yeah, I don't know. It just depends on the person, what they're making it for, and what they're going to use it for, and when they want to make it, or if they have help. If they're going to be dealing with the raw hide that has the guts on it, and the flesh on the inside, the hair to deal 19:00with, or if they're going to pick up a raw hide that's already been done, cleaned and ready to go. For me, there is no real, I guess you would say, specific time of the year to make one. Whenever it comes up or comes around and needs to be done.

Tibbs: I'm Cheyenne and Southern Cheyenne, and our people say that the drum can gather power from weather, kind of like a rainstorm in the springtime. Sometimes they say that's a good time to make something like that as far as getting the animal hides, and the spirit that's involved that goes into them.

Rice: Yeah, I would agree with that. To me, that sounds real logical. It's good, 20:00like a lot of things, start new in the springtime. For us as Native Americans, it's referred to as Indian New Year, springtime. To me, that goes right along with it. It would be a new start, a fresh new beginning, new prayers.

Tibbs: Do you also think it's very important--because I've seen other tribes have some classes on drum-making. It was considered a lost art there for a little while a few years back. Now it seems kind of like a cultural renaissance, so to speak, as far as a lot of Native Americans are getting more involved in 21:00their culture. It seems like there's not as many drum makers. I'm not saying it's a lost art, but do you think that, as well, as far as knowing very many people that also tie up drums?

Rice: I'd say a few years back, maybe I would agree with you there. All that I knew of was just a few people that made drums and maybe went about it the way that they did, and had their procedures and whatever they did that went into it. Nowadays, I think there's more and more drum makers out there. I am not 100 percent, but with the technology, it seems to be getting commercialized a lot. There's a lot of different internet places you can buy a drum. To me, it's 22:00different. You can just go on there and buy a drum just like you were shopping at the store or something, whereas when we were younger, we knew somebody that made them. "We'll go down and see Grandpa and see if we can get a drum for our little drum group," when we were younger. Nowadays, it's just a mouse click on the internet, and you can have one on its way in the mail. To me, it's a lot different than it was. That was the idea I had was I wanted to make my own. I didn't want to have to buy it from somebody or order it online, so to speak. I wanted to have my thoughts and feelings in it. To me, it's more commercialized 23:00nowadays. I think there's more drum makers out there. Just don't know of them. I'm sure that they're making drums and doing it their own way.

I think it's important to keep making them, even though, like I was saying, it's commercialized, and it's on the internet. Myself, I've got boys. I know that they see it, and we talk about it and what goes into it. I was even explaining to them about this video we were going to do about drum making and stuff. Their little minds understood it a little bit, about the prayers that go into it and 24:00then how important it is to our tribe for our dances. I think it's real important to show that to them so they can be able to pick it up, and be able to learn something and pass it on, and preserve it within our own families and our own tribes, our own culture, so they don't have to get on the internet or ask somebody for a drum. They will be able to make their own drum and maybe even help out their friends and relatives down the road. Their kids, pass it on, keep it going, keep it alive for us. That's what I'm hoping for, why I invested my time in it.

Tibbs: That kind of brings us full circle back to what I was talking about: the 25:00importance and significance of the drum, why it is important and how it is used in almost every ceremony, everything we do as Native Americans, and how our cultural continuity, how we had to learn how to kind of keep things going. Do you ever have people that ask you to make a drum for them or anything like that?

Rice: Yeah, I did in the past. Sometimes things, they just don't work out where it's feasible, or just don't get around to it, or they don't get the material, or one or the other. Not lately, I haven't made any drums for anyone lately.

Tibbs: Do you think that in these modern times, a lot of times people want to take the easy route as far as getting a little bit lazy and not wanting to actually take the time, like you said, to get the material and put the time and effort in to learn how to make one? I know it takes time, and some people don't want to take that amount of time to make one.

Rice: Yeah. I can't say anyone in particular, but I could see that. The generations today, it may seem a lot easier and quicker just to buy one or get a hold of one somewhere, and get around it and sing. I think if a person wants to make their own drum or even all the group members help make a drum, there's a 27:00different feeling that goes along with it, more of a connection with that particular drum and those particular people with the songs they're going to sing. We were talking about the prayer and then the thought that goes into it, being thankful for it and what it's going to do for them in the future. I could see a person wanting to take, like we were saying, the easy route out, and being a quicker process of just getting a drum and singing. To me, the person that's going to take the time and effort to construct one or put their emotions and feelings into it and then their prayers, the spirit might be there for them a little bit more because of the connection they had with it. Being around it and singing, to me, it's like a machine when everyone's in sync and all the sticks are together on that drum. To me, it unlocks a spirit in that drum. It's all a 28:00connection with the singers, and the drum, and the songs, the feelings they have, the spirit, and emotions they've got in their songs, and the feelings in their music.

Tibbs: After you make a drum, do you get a feeling of accomplishment, like sit back and look at what you've made? How does that make you feel as far as a artist creating something?

Rice: Yeah, to me, it's a real good feeling, a real great feeling. A wonderful feeling, I guess you would say. When you look back, I guess, and you just see the raw material there, you have to visualize it like an artist would. The end 29:00process, you have a product that you've created. That's a sense of full circle, a spiritual feeling. That's something that could come to life out of materials. It's a real good feeling. I'd say even a little bit more on top of that, when you get to sit around it and sing, you get that feeling of that spirit that's in that drum. That's, I would say, the pinnacle of it.

Tibbs: Do you guys have any belief as far as the sound the drum makes as far as relating it to thunder, the thunder spirits, or anything along those lines?

Rice: Yeah, I've heard some older folks refer to it like rolling thunder. I've heard them talk about it. That deep bass that it has, it moves you, just like the weather would or spirits.

Tibbs: I was wanting to ask you about how the power of the spirit that comes out, and the power that it has, it's been known to heal people. Have you ever witnessed that or heard stories about that, how the drum can actually heal people that hears it, or rather, maybe they touch it and bless themselves?

Rice: I've heard a lot of different stories. I haven't got to see it, but I've heard different ones come up and tell us that it lifted them up, made them feel 31:00good, made them have a better day than when they came to the dance, or came around the drum. I've heard stories of people that couldn't walk, get up and dance and walk because of that drum. I personally haven't seen that. I believe in it, though. It can lift someone up and make them feel better. It's got that living spirit in it to do that.

Tibbs: Being Native American, do you feel that the drum is always going to be kind of placed up on a pedestal as far as always going to be there for the people to use, and we're always going to have a lot of respect for it? Do you 32:00think that it's always going to be that way, that we have to keep it at the forefront of our ceremonies and our traditions as far as the continuity of our people?

Rice: Yeah, I think it plays a major role in our perseverance as Native Americans and keeping our culture alive. I'm going to say that with all things, there's going to be change that we can't foresee, that our grandparents and great-grandparents couldn't foresee. We definitely don't do how they did, but we try our best to follow their footsteps. I believe it's going to be that same way with our generations after us, our grandkids and our children. They're not going to be able to do exactly like us, but they're going to try their best.

I do believe there's going to be change with it. It's just a matter of trying to 33:00preserve the way we see it and the respect we have for it, so they can understand that and keep it as close as they can to viewing it like going to church, sitting around that drum and respecting it like our grandpa. I do believe that, no matter what, all things are going to change. Something we can't--it's just out of our hands. We might not be around to see it, but maybe our kids will, grandkids.

Tibbs: As far as making drums, do you consider it--have you ever actually called it an art, as far as like an art form. You know how to make them, but do you 34:00consider it an art form, or more or less just a tradition, a family tradition that's been passed down that you're trying to perpetuate and propel, allow your kids and children to see it as far as a cultural experience?

Rice: I believe it can be both. It can be a piece of art, and then at the same time, it's a functional piece of art, a traditional, functional piece of art that we are trying to preserve.

Tibbs: Have you ever seen them used in other areas than say at a ceremony, or powwow, or dance?

Rice: Yeah, I've seen non-Native Americans use them as tables, coffee tables, or 35:00end tables, or pieces of furniture, basically. Some of them put them in cases or hang them on walls, more or less just to display. I believe that they're art but functional pieces of art. To me, if they're going to be what you would call a spiritual drum to us as Native Americans, if it's going to have a spirit, then it's going to have to be used. We, to me, don't make a drum to hang on the wall. We don't make one to set our coffee on it. That's not its purpose. It might be art, and it might be something beautiful to someone without the understanding of it, but to us, there's a lot more to it than just putting it on display. It's 36:00alive. Your grandpa, he don't want to be put up on a shelf. Way back to our folks, they wouldn't just use it for something to put on display. It had a purpose.

Tibbs: I guess I'd like to ask, maybe, for you to describe the process as far as cutting the hide, or lacing one up. How does that work, as far as the process goes of actually tying one? What's that process?

Rice: Well, it wouldn't matter what kind of hides you've got once you get to your rawhide point where you're going to have to soak it in water. It's going to 37:00get pliable to use because it's going to start stretching and get saturated with water. Then you're going to want to start cutting it out. What I use was like a pattern, maybe a sheet or cloth or something to lay over the drum to get an idea of how big you wanted your covers to be. Then lay it out, and kind of just trace it out, and cut your circles out of your two pieces. A lot of times, to me, the trickiest part is sometimes we don't get enough hide. We just get barely enough, so the hard part is getting the lace out of what's left, having to work your way around that. Once you get all your hides cut out, your circles, and your lace, 38:00then you need to put some holes in it.

Some people, they cut notches with knives. Some people use drill bits and drill circles in it. Then there's hole punches you can use, too, leather hole punches. Then, once you get your holes and your lace ready, then you just lace it up. There's a lot of different ways people lace their drums. Some use a single lace, and some crisscross it or double it. It just depends on the person. To me, that is where it becomes more of art, I guess. For a drum maker, you're going to see different drums and you'll say, "Wow, this person makes it like that. This person makes it kind of similar to how I make them." There's even different shapes, different widths, all around different ideas of how they make a drum. 39:00Then it's starting to become your own art because you're going to stand out one way or another based on how you make your drums, and how you tie them, or how they sound. People are going to like one more than the other.

Tibbs: Do different animal hides and different woods make for a different sound, a different tone?

Rice: I would say it definitely does. You're going to have thicker hides and thinner hides. People are going to tie them tighter and looser. The tighter, the higher pitch; the thinner, the higher the pitch. You're going to have thicker hides and maybe tie them not as tight. They're going to have deeper pitches, and it's going to resonate and vibrate through the wood that's on the inside, depending on what kind of wood it is, whether or not it's going to absorb the vibrations, or if it's going to be like a baffle, I guess. Some people even have 40:00an air pocket for it to come out. Just depends on the drum maker, I guess, and what he's looking for.

Tibbs: Once you get a drum tied, and you said the hide was wet, how long do you have to wait before the drum is ready to be used?

Rice: Just depends on dry time. If it's middle of the summer or springtime, you can put it outside, and the sun's going to dry it pretty quick. I'd say you can have a drum dried out, depending on how thick the hide is, in one day, depending on if the sun was out all day. With colder conditions, it's going to take longer. You may not have the luxury of the sun. You may have to dry it with another process, heaters, or lights, or woodstove, or a stove.

Tibbs: Once it's dried, can you reheat them in order to get that better sound or higher pitch sound? How does that work?

Rice: Yeah, just about with any drum, it's going to loosen or tighten up depending on humidity and the climate, matter of fact, wherever you are located. We've gone out west in the dry heat, and they stretch really tight and even crack the hide sometimes because it's so dry out there. You have to wet it down. That's part of taking care of that hide. I've heard some people use grease on them to keep that oil in there. Some people use a wet rag with water. We've heard our folks refer to it as giving them a drink, giving Grandpa a drink, taking care of it. That's what they're talking about: taking care of it.

Up in Canada, it's cold up there and damp. It kind of loosens it up. The drum is real flimsy and loose. It changes the whole tone, and then we'll have to use some kind of heat to tighten it up. We put it by a fire, campfires, and it's tightened up. They had a blow dryer one time that we used to tighten it up. Just different ways. No doubt, heat's going to always tighten your skin up. The cool weather and damp areas are going to loosen it up on you. You don't want too much heat because it's going to crack and stretch it too much.

Tibbs: When you travel around and see different drums around the country, is there kind of like a set price, or do you see people selling them, or is there a market for them that you've seen?

Rice: Yeah, I think there's a market for them. It's maybe a market you have to 43:00go find sometimes. If you have a way for them to find you, people are going to find you. I think there's a market, maybe not a real big market because there's a lot of different drums being made out there. A lot of times you'll see different drum makers selling them at powwows. A lot of people are starting groups up and looking for drums, wanting to drum or maybe wanting to sing with their families or their kids, which I think is good. It's always good to pass down our traditional ways.

Tibbs: Have you ever been asked by a school or college or anyone to come in and give any demonstrations on how to tie a drum, or talk to some school kids, or 44:00anything like that?

Rice: Yeah, one time we were asked to go up to Lawrence, Kansas, at the Haskell Indian Nations University. We did a demonstration on drums, talking about tying them, and went into them and the process, and then elaborated a little bit on etiquette of being around the drum. Shared some songs with them, also. I've done little demonstrations for kids' schools around different areas.

Tibbs: Explain drum making, and its relevance to the history of Native American art.

Rice: I think drum making has real important relevance in art history. I just 45:00don't believe for it being the most important thing and being what all our ceremonies and dances are centered around, that it's been recorded. It hasn't really been recorded that I know of. There hasn't been many drum makers that have been noted, I guess, or put down in books and history. At the same time, maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe they didn't want it commercialized. Even though, to me, it might already be there, and we're kind of headed in that direction. A lot of people are out there making drums and selling them for the profit.

Maybe that's why the drum makers in the past, they might have sold them, but it wasn't all about the profit. It was more about the spirit, and the passing on of 46:00singing, and encouraging younger singers. I had an uncle tell me when he was learning to sing, there wasn't a lot of young people around the drum. It was mostly older people. I see it being maybe some of those drum makers from then, they didn't want it commercialized or maybe they didn't want to get it down in a recording or publicize it too much because they were trying to pass on something more traditional and spiritual. I believe that it's a real important functional piece of art today. It's a living spirit. It's real powerful, according to our 47:00culture, our people. I believe it has a real importance in art history, it just hasn't been documented that I know of. Like I said, maybe there's reasons for that, or perhaps it's time it gets documented.

Tibbs: Do you feel that Native Americans in general sometimes don't like the fact that things are commercialized, or that they're kind of stolen in the way that some people try to copy our ways?

Rice: I believe there's more, I guess you would say, traditional Native Americans that live with more of their cultural upbringing that feel like it's better off keeping it within their family or to themselves, or hanging onto it 48:00so that it doesn't get to a commercialized perspective, or just that everybody has a drum, or maybe even not respecting it the way that they were taught. Passing the drum on has to have that respect that goes with it. Yeah, I do believe, with that in mind, there are different Native Americans that want to keep it to themselves and not share too much of it. Along with those thoughts, too, say that they didn't share it with anyone and they passed on. Then you've got a situation where maybe their art form didn't get passed on to their next 49:00generation because they were so tight with it. I guess it can work both ways.

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