Oral history interview with Lena Blackbird

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, January 25, 2013, and I'm interviewing Lena Blackbird as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Ms. Blackbird's home in Tahlequah. Lena, you've been making Cherokee baskets for many years and specializing, I think, in double-walled baskets?

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: You've also been an exhibitor with the Tsalagi Village at the museum [Cherokee Heritage Center], and your baskets have been featured in several books. You've taught a lot of people how to do this. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Blackbird: I just grew up around here in Cherokee County, in Rocky Ford.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Blackbird: Really, no jobs, but I guess you would just call them farmers or laborers or something like that, just making it.

Little Thunder: Right. Did you have your grandparents on both sides?

Blackbird: No, I really didn't know, on my dad's side, my grandparent. I didn't really know him. He was gone. He had gotten separated from the family a long time ago, a long time ago, so we really didn't know him.

My mother's side, he was around, but we didn't really stay close touch with him either. He lived around Welling, Oklahoma, and sometimes he'd come to visit, but that was about all the real grandparent.

Little Thunder: What are your earliest memories of seeing artwork, even sewing or painting or baskets?

Blackbird: Well, I've been sewing since--I guess I really started sewing when we would go to church and help our mother sew at the church on Wednesdays.

Little Thunder: Was it quilting or--

Blackbird: Yes, quilting. We would get quilt tops, my mother, from whoever 3:00wanted to have their quilt there quilted, and we would make a little money for that church, for missions work. That's where I learned how to sew.

Little Thunder: Did you like it? What did you like about it?

Blackbird: When I was little, I guess, I thought I was really made to do it. I'd rather been out and be playing somewhere. (Laughter) My parents were pretty strict. They wanted us to learn things.

Little Thunder: Probably, it taught you patience. You were working with your hands, doing fine work.

Blackbird: Yes, using a needle and a thimble, we would sew those quilts. Put 4:00them on frames, and we would sit around the quilt and sew. Women would be laughing and talking and talking about things and having fun, too.

Little Thunder: Yes, good visiting time. Did you like to draw, or were there any other kinds of--

Blackbird: No, that's one thing I never did. Never got interested in drawing or anything like that. Didn't seem too interesting to me.

Little Thunder: Where did you go to school?

Blackbird: We went to this little place at Rocky Ford. It's still standing 5:00there, but it's about half gone. It was a brick house, and it's about half gone. That's where I went until I finished in the eighth grade.

Little Thunder: What was it like for you going to school?

Blackbird: There wasn't very many kids going at that time because we had to walk. There were no buses or anything to catch right by the door. In winter time, we'd have to walk. We'd have to bundle up if we had enough clothes, bundle up and go to school. Sometimes there were just about four students come, and we were kind of pleased when there was just a few of us there that we got a treat. 6:00We got an apple or a orange. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You grew up with Cherokee as your first language.

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: Was school an adjustment? Was it hard to adjust to--

Blackbird: To the school? You mean when I first started?

Little Thunder: Yes, in English.

Blackbird: I guess it was. I guess I really didn't want to go. (Laughs) I think my mother made me go. Sometimes later, I really didn't like to go because I would be crying sometimes, not wanting to go, but she made me. She made me go. At least I got that far. (Laughter)

Lisa Blackbird: She's a good writer.

Little Thunder: Oh, and you like to write, Lisa says?

Blackbird: I like to write. I like to read. I used to like to read poems, and I've got a few that I've written. But my hands now are shaky, and I can't hardly write good anymore, so I just don't do much.

Little Thunder: Did you do any artwork in school that you remember or make anything, any crafts, in school?

Blackbird: I don't remember. Making little special things, like specific things. Just doodling, I guess. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Little art projects?

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: Did you like those?

Blackbird: Yes. I guess. That's what we were told to do at that time, so you did it.

Little Thunder: So what happened after you finished school?

Blackbird: I think I started--I tried to go to Oaks High School, but I didn't finish even the first year. I just went that far. That's as far as I went in school.

Little Thunder: What were the reasons that you--

Blackbird: I guess we had to do a lot of things to help the family and do 9:00housework and just doing things to help because we lived on a farm, and we had to do a lot of things. Going to school was not part of what I liked to do. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Were you the oldest?

Blackbird: No. There was eight of us in the family. I was the sixth one, I think.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, so you were needed to help around home. When did you learn basketmaking?

Blackbird: Some people say they learned it from their grandmother or their mother or that they've been doing them for a long, long time, but for me, I 10:00didn't start that far back. I started working at the Village, at the Heritage Center, and the other ladies, they taught me then. That's when I got interested in the basketmaking, among the other things that we did in the Village.

Little Thunder: That's really interesting. Was it in the '80s when you started working at the Village?

Blackbird: I think it was. I think it was in the ʼ80s. I think I started working there in '86 or something around there. Almost immediately after that, I learned how to make baskets.

Little Thunder: What was it like working in the Village?

Blackbird: It made you think. It made you think about how Indians and how people 11:00lived, how they lived back then, most of all how they could have made it. Didn't have any store-bought things, or didn't go to the store to buy this and that. A lot of things came from the woods, and greens and stuff like that that they would gather to eat, and the fruit. When we were growing up, it was a lot better by then, but that's what I used to think about. I used to think about how they lived back then, long time ago.

Little Thunder: I guess everybody is doing some kind of activity in the Village, 12:00right? You had to have a chore to do, but you were attracted to the basketmaking.

Blackbird: Yes. They had food they made out of hickory nuts from the woods, and they made soup out of it. I was the one that demonstrated how to make it, but I don't know how, now. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Uh-oh. All that practice--

Blackbird: I've about forgotten how to make it now.

Lisa Blackbird: She told me how.

Blackbird: Yes, that was the demonstration I did when tourists came by, to show them how it was done. What all they had to eat and where they got it and stuff 13:00like that.

Little Thunder: So when you asked some of the ladies over there to teach you to make baskets, were you doing that in the course of the demonstration? Did you get to be by them, or did you do that afterwards?

Blackbird: The tourists was kind of like in between. The tourists would go by, and there'd be a little while before another tourist came by. A group came by, and in between that's what we did. We made baskets.

Little Thunder: Did you take to it right away?

Blackbird: Pretty much, but it took a little while. I think my first basket looked like a cone. (Laughter) I couldn't shape it, I mean, make it flat, flat 14:00the way it starts out, until later when I learned how to do it.

Little Thunder: What material were you working with at the Village when you were learning how to make baskets?

Blackbird: We used mostly the commercial reed being to practice on, to learn on, and then if we could get the natural reed, well, we might get it from somebody that would get it for us. I didn't go out and get it myself too much. I just used to get it from someone that did, that liked to do that.

Little Thunder: So when did you think, "I really have the hang of this. I want 15:00to see if I can sell these or show these"? How many years was it?

Blackbird: What was the question?

Little Thunder: How many years before you started trying to sell your baskets?

Blackbird: Oh, almost immediately they would start selling. That's what I remember about them. I guess they liked them. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Did you start off with certain designs? What designs did you start off with?

Blackbird: We started with the plain, without no color in them. When we were learning how to do it, we just mostly used the plain without using color in it until later when we got a little better, we started using color on them.

Little Thunder: They were open baskets, double-walled?

Blackbird: Yes, they were double-wall baskets. They were open mostly at the 16:00beginning, but later you learned how to make the lid, to put the lid on the top, and then make a little knob on top where you could pick it up, pick up the lid and open it.

Little Thunder: Were there a lot of basket makers at the time that you were learning or just a few?

Blackbird: There were several, but not a whole lot were there at that time. I know my sister-in-law was there. She had been doing it for quite a while. The other ladies--Nadine was there, and she would help me with it. There was another older lady, Diane--I forget her last name. I'm sorry. She was older than us, and 17:00she had been doing that for a long time.

Little Thunder: So tell us about the first time you won an award for your baskets.

Blackbird: Somebody encouraged me to enter the basket that I had made, and I took it to the Art Under the Oaks in Muskogee. It was a honeysuckle basket with a lid and had, I think, little decorations, acorns on it or something like that. 18:00I was surprised. I was happy.

Somebody else entered at the same time, and we were all outside when they were calling our names what we had won. When they got to the basketry, they called somebody else's name, and I thought, "Uh-oh." I got disappointed, and somebody next to me said, "Oh no, they didn't even call your name." The next name they called, they said, "The best of the show is Lena Blackbird," so I came alive again. (Laughter) I had won the Best of Show award.

Little Thunder: Oh, the Best of Show award. Wow, that's very impressive.

Blackbird: That was the first time I had entered a basket.

Little Thunder: So it had little acorns on top. Was it plain-colored? Did it have any designs on it, too?

Blackbird: I think we were using color, started using color then. We used a lot of the commercial color, but we used a lot of the other natural color like--I'm getting blank. (Laughs)

Lisa Blackbird: Bloodroot.

Blackbird: Bloodroot that grows out in the woods, and--

Lisa Blackbird: Walnut?

Blackbird: Yes, walnut. We mostly used walnut and bloodroot at that time.

Little Thunder: So that would give you some reds and purples or browns?

Blackbird: The bloodroot was mostly orange, kind of an orange color, not really red but orange. The walnut is kind of light black-brown, or sometimes it would get darker if you used more walnuts in it. You can also use the hulls in it to make color.

Little Thunder: Was that your first time going to the Art Under the Oaks show?

Blackbird: Yes, I think that was the first time I started going to that show, so I kept going. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Right, that was a good start. What were some other shows that you liked to do?

Blackbird: Let's see. The shows where I won something?

Little Thunder: Yes or that you would show your work at?

Blackbird: Mostly every year, we went to the Heritage Center. At the beginning, mostly every year I would win First Place, which made me happy. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Oh, wow!

Blackbird: I thought, "They like my work. They like my baskets."

Little Thunder: Yes, was that during Cherokee Holidays when the Heritage Center 22:00had their show, or was it the Trail of Tears show?

Blackbird: The Trail of Tears.

Little Thunder: Okay. When you were winning each year at the Trail of Tears show, too, that was when that was really a big national show. They got entries from all over the country during that time. Now, your sister makes baskets, too, right?

Blackbird: Yes, she does.

Little Thunder: Did she learn about the same time as you, or--

Blackbird: I think probably about the same time, maybe a little later when she started entering her baskets.

Little Thunder: Did she learn from you, or did she--

Blackbird: Yes. (Laughter) But she'd say it's different.

Little Thunder: What was it like? Did you ever compete against each other in shows? Did you ever have work in the same show?

Blackbird: Yes. I hate to talk about my sister. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: That's fine. I understand. I've interviewed other artists who were siblings, but you did compete in some of the same shows?

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: Who were some basket makers that you admired during that time? You were winning a lot of shows, but were there a couple of people whose work 23:00you really thought was also good?

Blackbird: At that time, there weren't that many basket makers like they are now. There's a lot of basket makers nowadays. I guess the one that I would look up to that helped me the most would be my sister-in-law because she was making baskets way before I was and she was good.

Little Thunder: Did you ever get a chance to go to Cherokee, North Carolina?

Blackbird: Yes, we've been there. Had the privilege of going back to the homeland.

Little Thunder: Did you go with your family, your husband and kids?

Blackbird: No, the first time we went, the Village got together and raised some 24:00money, and we went. We got to go.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. What was that like?

Blackbird: It was just like, get to thinking that that was their home. Their home. Now I'm going to cry. You would just think that's where you came from, your ancestors came from, and you were standing on the soil where the ancestors lived. It was wonderful.

Little Thunder: Did you get to talk to any basket makers over there?

Blackbird: Yes, I did. I talked to some basket makers, but they used a lot of the flat reed instead of the kind that we use over here. In the old days, they would make their own flat reed from the trees out in the woods, in the old days way before my time. They were pretty, but I think these made from honeysuckle 26:00and commercial reed are prettier to me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And they used different kinds of splits, didn't they? Do you have to have a frame for that honeysuckle? I don't know what you call it, but the structure that the honeysuckle goes around, do you use a different kind of material for that?

Blackbird: You mean before you use to making baskets with it?

Little Thunder: Yes, for something to hold up because the honeysuckle is so flexible.

Blackbird: Oh, no, we didn't use anything. Like I said, to make it like a pattern, like going round and round with it, we just used our imagination and our own hands. That reed, when you gather it, it has to be boiled for maybe 27:00about three hours to get it soft enough to get it one by one, to strip it with your hands and get them clean.

Little Thunder: Oh, for the reed.

Blackbird: Yes, for the reed.

Little Thunder: You mentioned you only made a few of the reed baskets? Is that right?

Blackbird: Yes, but (what did I say?) buckbrush. They call it buckbrush. It's a lot tougher than the honeysuckle. I guess that's why there weren't so many buckbrushes.

Little Thunder: So it's harder to work with, in a way.

Blackbird: It's harder to work with, and the reed is bigger and tougher. It's a tougher reed.

Little Thunder: Did you enter the couple of buckbrush baskets that you made? Did you enter those in shows?

Blackbird: I don't think I ever entered one, but people liked them because they were different--

Little Thunder: Because they were different.

Blackbird: --so they bought them. I sold them.

Little Thunder: Oh, I see, okay. Did you have to charge a little more because it was tough to work with?

Blackbird: Yes, you have to charge a little more for the natural reed that you use, that you go out and gather yourself. You have to fix it up, and there's a 29:00lot of work to it. Some people don't realize how much work there is to it, but there is. There is a lot of work to it.

Little Thunder: Right. I know that you won, like in 2005 you won in the contemporary basket category. You had a piece called Indian Summer, I read. I wonder if you could explain that basket to us, first of all, what it looked like.

Blackbird: Let's see. I remember we finished a basket and was going to enter it. I thought they preferred for it to have a title, but nowadays they enter them, 30:00and some of them don't have no titles to them. I guess it mattered more then than it does now.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's interesting. So you would title quite a few of your baskets because that was what people did.

Blackbird: Yes. Then we would think and think what we could call it.

Little Thunder: Did you help each other with ideas?

Blackbird: Yes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I noticed you'll say, "We went to a show." Did you travel with other basket makers quite a bit, then, the other women who were selling?

Blackbird: Well, we didn't go to far, maybe like we went to Tulsa quite a bit, 31:00them shows over there.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay, at galleries or at the fairgrounds, or--

Blackbird: Craft shows is what we would call it.

Little Thunder: Tulsa Indian Arts Festival, was that going on?

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: Would you have a booth together, or did you have your own booth?

Blackbird: Like the rest of the other basket makers? No. Each one of us would have our own booths.

Little Thunder: But Tulsa was a good market for your baskets?

Blackbird: Yes.

Little Thunder: How would you describe the difference between a traditional basket and a contemporary basket?

Blackbird: How could you tell? The natural reed, when it's stripped, it's got 32:00little-bitty--it's not smooth all the way around like this commercial reed is. It's got little-bitty, I would just say bumps, I guess, on the honeysuckle after it's cleaned up and--

Lisa Blackbird: Roots.

Blackbird: --roots sticking--you can let them stick out to make sure they know it's natural. We used to cut all them roots off before, but then we started leaving them on because they look more natural. They could tell it was a natural reed while this was just smooth all the way around, didn't have nothing on them, 33:00just commercial.

Little Thunder: Were you one of the first who kind of started putting acorns on top of your baskets?

Blackbird: I just thought a little decoration from the woods would look different or better or something. I started using acorns.

Little Thunder: And it caught on. Everybody liked the idea.

Blackbird: Everybody caught on with it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What was your either most favorite or maybe the thing you didn't like about shows when you were doing shows? What did you enjoy or what didn't you enjoy?

Blackbird: It seemed like it was enjoyable to meet people, different people, and 34:00talk to people and how they would admire your work. That made you feel good. (Laughs) I don't know about what I didn't like. I just liked to go. I always liked to go them and enjoyed myself.

Little Thunder: Did your family come to shows with you, the kids and--

Blackbird: Yes, sometimes. Sometimes we did. For a while, I went by myself. I set up by myself, and mostly my sister, my sister-in-law or brother would be 35:00sitting next to me with their own crafts and stuff. Then later on, Lisa started getting interested in it, so she went with me and started going with me. When I got crippled, she's the one that usually takes me around everywhere.

Little Thunder: Did you give any workshops in making baskets?

Blackbird: No. I didn't go to very many places where I demonstrated, but I went 36:00to a couple of places I know where they asked you if you could go into this place and demonstrate making baskets. I know I been to maybe two or three, not very many.

Little Thunder: Where were they?

Blackbird: Where? I think--

Lisa Blackbird: Broken Arrow?

Blackbird: Broken Arrow was one, yes. Stilwell, somewhere in Stilwell. I don't know just what it was. I'm forgetful, and I can't remember the other places.

Little Thunder: Is there a type of basket that you wanted to learn how to make 37:00that you never got around to because you were busy selling your other ones? Was there ever a kind of basket that you never got around to making?

Blackbird: No, I guess I never thought about that. Just doing what I had to work with and did that.

Little Thunder: When you were doing a basket for a show, for a competition, what did you focus on?

Blackbird: You have to really make it smooth and as nice as you could. (Laughs) 38:00To make it as nice as you could. Sometimes some reed would be bigger than the other smaller reed, and you would try to match the sizes of it to make it smooth-looking. It would make it look better than just using any kind.

Little Thunder: That was with the natural reed.

Blackbird: You would pick out the same sizes or try to pick out the same sizes to use. When you was entering something, you had to do that.

Little Thunder: Right. So did you sell quite a bit out of--well, it's probably hard to sell out of the home. Probably hard for people to come out here, so 39:00mostly at shows, I guess.

Blackbird: No, not too much at home. Usually, what we had, we'd take to shops or wait until a show was going on.

Little Thunder: Cherokee Nation gift shop and some of the other gift shops. Who has one of your baskets that you're most proud they have your basket?

Blackbird: I wish I could remember the names that went overseas.

Little Thunder: Oh, how fun.

Blackbird: I think Wilma Mankiller had several. I think she had some vases that 40:00I had woven over. She had some clay beads that I had made out of clay, like this one right here. This is clay. I know Bobbie Gail's got some.

Little Thunder: Former Chief [Chad] Smith's wife.

Blackbird: Yes, I was proud of that.

Lisa Blackbird: Museums.

Little Thunder: Several museums.

Blackbird: Yes. When somebody would come along and buy a basket, it would go to some museum. One went to somewhere in Texas, somewhere in a museum back there.

Little Thunder: Did you have one go to the Smithsonian, National Museum of the American Indian?

Blackbird: I don't think so, not there.

Little Thunder: When did you start to get the idea for weaving over vases?

Blackbird: Just later on after I started making baskets. I thought they looked pretty, and you could put water in it and put real flowers on it if they wanted to use it for a vase for flowers. People liked them. They bought them, and I 42:00used to sell them. One about that size, I've sold some for about a hundred and fifty dollars. I thought that was good. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Yes. With your woven baskets, were you happy if they were used for something, too, or did you think of them just mainly as a work of art to set on the table?

Blackbird: No, I didn't mind, if they knew who it came from. I didn't mind how they used it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So when Lisa started learning to make baskets, how did you handle that?

Blackbird: I was proud. I was proud that somebody got interested in it and was going to carry on when I couldn't.

Little Thunder: She already knew about shows.

Blackbird: Yes. I'm proud of her. She's getting better than I am. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Are there any grandkids that are interested, too?

Blackbird: Yes, Lisa's girls, they know how to weave, but they just haven't gotten into it that much. My other daughter can. She knows how to weave, but 44:00she's...too busy. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: It takes time, doesn't it?

Blackbird: Yes, it takes time. They know how.

Little Thunder: How long would it take you to finish a basket?

Blackbird: For me, it takes longer, but I'll talk about Lisa. She can finish one in a day. She starts one on one day, and she finishes the next day. For me, it takes longer than that.

Little Thunder: So when you were showing, did you only work on one basket at a time, or would you work on several at a time?

Blackbird: Just one. I would just use the reed that I had and show them how it 45:00was done. If it was a small one, we could finish it in a little while, but if it was a bigger one, it would take longer than that. We usually just started with the small ones when we were demonstrating.

Little Thunder: Right. So talking a little bit more, I guess, about your process, how did you get your ideas for baskets? Would you sometimes kind of wake up in the morning, and you might have an idea, or you'd be outside walking around, and you'd get an idea? How did you get your ideas?

Blackbird: Usually when you're in bed, I think, that's mostly when you would 46:00think about how you could make it look different or better or what kind of decorations you could put on there, be thinking about that. The hardest part was thinking up the title. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Right, right. So did you write things down when you were laying in bed, or did you just keep it in your head?

Blackbird: No, I didn't write it down. I just kept it in my head.

Little Thunder: Then the next day, you'd go to work. Did you prefer working during the day, or did you like to kind of work later in the evening?

Blackbird: I worked during the day because there was nothing much else I could do. When I could work longer and when my hands were better, I used to work until way in the night sometimes.

Little Thunder: If you had a show coming up.

Blackbird: Yes, if I had a show coming up, I'd work extra hard. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How many baskets--I know it depends on size, but how many would you try to have at a show?

Blackbird: We would try to have about a tableful of baskets, sometimes more than 48:00that. Now we don't do so many.

Little Thunder: I know you mentioned that a lot of times, even with the buckbrush or the honeysuckle, you might buy the natural materials, but a few times you got them yourself. I'm wondering if it's gotten kind of harder as the weather is changing and things are changing in the land. Is it kind of getting harder to get those natural materials?

Blackbird: It's getting scarcer, I think. Wouldn't you, Lisa?

Lisa Blackbird: Yes.

Blackbird: You just have to find a place or see a place where there might be 49:00some, and then you would go out there. If it's on somebody's land, you have to get their permission, if it was all right to go out and get it.

Little Thunder: How did you sign your baskets--Blackbird: Sign?

Little Thunder: --or did you not? Was there any way of--like a potter can put their name on the bottom of a pot.

Blackbird: No, I don't remember signing them, but once in a while somebody would ask if I could sign my name at the bottom or somewhere, and we just used ink pen or something like that. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Did you like doing that, or did you feel like--

Blackbird: Oh, I didn't think nothing of it. I just did it. It was all right.

Lisa Blackbird: She had pictures taken with them.

Little Thunder: You were happy to do it for them. The fine work was your signature, wasn't it? (Laughs) That's really nice work. Looking back over the time that you've made baskets when you were making and selling, was there kind of a fork in the road where you thought to yourself, "Well, maybe I shouldn't really spend my time making these"? Was there ever a fork in the road for you, or did you always just know, "I like making baskets and I'm going to do it"?

Blackbird: That's what I would say. I just like doing it. I like doing it. Of course, there's other things, the usual things to be doing, and I'd do that, but 51:00as much as I could, I was making baskets. (Laughs) I just liked to.

Little Thunder: Did you have any low points when you were making baskets and selling baskets, and you got discouraged?

Blackbird: You would get a little discouraged whenever you went to a show and there wasn't too much business, not very many people buying or interested. Just a little. It didn't bother too much.

Little Thunder: The next one would be better. You were planning on that. How 52:00about another high point? Going back to Cherokee, North Carolina, was a high point in a way, and it was a moving experience. Was there another high point in your career, another moment that stands out that you really had special--

Blackbird: Yes, we met some older elders there that was good to talk to, and they've been making baskets for a long time. It was good visiting with them because they talked Cherokee, but they sounded a little different than the way we sound. Had to pay pretty close attention to what they were saying before you 53:00understood them. It's a little different. It sounds a little different than the way we talk. It was just good going back.

Little Thunder: And you went twice, right? Once with the Village? Did you go twice?

Blackbird: Yes, the first time is when we raised that money to go, and all of the Village workers went. The next time we just went on our own. We went, I think, three more times after that. Every year in September, we would go. That's 54:00when they would have their celebration up there, just all different things going on. That's when we would go, in October, and it was just enjoyable to be there. The mountains, I love the mountains.

Little Thunder: So that became an annual thing for a while. Is there anything we've forgotten to talk about that you'd like to add before we look at your baskets?

Blackbird: I don't know. I'll probably be saying that. I'll be saying "I wished I had told her this. I wished I had told her that," later on. (Laughs) But I can't think of anything right now. Seems like everything is pretty much covered.

Little Thunder: Covered, okay. We haven't talked about your designation as a Living [National] Treasure by Cherokee Nation. How did you first find out?

Blackbird: There was a fellow worker in that Village. He was the canoe maker in the Village, and he only had one arm. Something happened to him when he was younger. He told me that, "I'm going to nominate you for the National 56:00Treasures." It started from him. He went and gave them my name, and now it's--. When I got it, that was in '96, I think.

Little Thunder: In '96. Was the program very old? Had it been in existence very long?

Blackbird: Not too long, not very long. I heard from somebody that Wilma Mankiller had thought up the idea. I'd heard it, but I don't really know for sure if that was who.

Little Thunder: So when you were given that award, was there a dinner? How did 57:00they celebrate that?

Blackbird: They would announce it, when it was going to be, and a lot of people would come to it.

Lisa Blackbird: A banquet.

Blackbird: Yes, a banquet.

Little Thunder: And then the museum probably has at least a couple of your baskets, right, Cherokee National Museum?

Blackbird: I think so. I don't know how many places have my baskets, but I know 58:00they're here and there. I don't know just where they are.

Little Thunder: Right. They've gone all over the world, like you said.

Lisa Blackbird: She got her award with Tommy Lee Jones. He got an award at the same time. They were together at this banquet.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's neat. All right, well, we're going to take a look at your basket a little more closely, which is here on the couch and just beautiful. Lena, you want to tell us about this basket? It's the one that you've kept, I guess, here. Is it yours? Is it one that you kept all these years, or--

Blackbird: No. This isn't mine. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Okay, this is one of Lisa's.

Lisa Blackbird: No, she made it. She give it to me as a gift.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. That's how you kept it. You gave it away!

Blackbird: And when we get interviewed, we use that because I don't have any in my house. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Well, it's beautiful. In the dyes that you talked about, is there some walnut there and some bloodroot?

Blackbird: I think that brown is walnut, and the orange is bloodroot.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a little bit about the top of the basket?

Blackbird: We made that knob where it would be easier to pick up the lid if they 60:00wanted to look inside to see what it looks like, or if they wanted to store something in it, they can do that. You can make some lids that don't have those knobs on there, too, but they would be harder to pick up. They would be flat.

Little Thunder: Yes, that's a beautiful top or knob because I've seen them where they're hard to pick up. It's just big enough and the shape and everything. Is this one of the ones where you were thinking about it one night, the design sort of came to you?

Blackbird: I guess. I don't remember. (Laughter) The idea of putting those 61:00acorns and decorating that little bit came to me later, and just started doing that. I would make little-bitty corns out of this smaller reed, and then I would decorate the basket knob and put the little corns around it, too.

Little Thunder: Oh, how delicate. Did you dye some of the--did it have color in the corn, or was it just the natural color?

Blackbird: Mostly yellow and the dark, almost like purple. It looked like strawberries on there, but they were corn. They called it some kind of corn. I 62:00forgot what they were called. Almost round berries.

Little Thunder: Talk about the acorns a bit. You polish them, don't you? I mean, they're real shiny. They're prettier than the ones I pick up.

Blackbird: What do I with them? I think just a wet cloth or something like that. Just cleaning them real good.

Little Thunder: It's just beautiful. Lisa, you mentioned there was a way that Lena sort of signed her baskets in a sense.

Lisa Blackbird: Yes. People would want the signature, so the only way we knew of 63:00was to have a picture with her and the basket, proving that she's the one that made the basket. The colors on this basket is what she called Cherokee colors.

Little Thunder: That's nice to know, that particular combination. I don't know if we've really talked about even maybe a design that was kind of your favorite design, or did it just change from basket to basket?

Lisa Blackbird: Your chain.

Blackbird: I don't remember.

Lisa Blackbird: At the top, the chain. That's yours.

Little Thunder: The design on the basket?

Lisa Blackbird: Not the lid. The basket.

Little Thunder: Okay, I see it. The one on the top there. That's one of your mom's trademark designs. That's just really neat. All right, well thank you so much for your time today.

Blackbird: Well, thank you for coming. I hope I--I have trouble talking. I don't really know how to talk. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Oh, no, you were just great.

Blackbird: Glad to see you.

------- End of interview -------