Oral history interview with Heidi Bigknife

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Sunday, December 2, 2012. I'm interviewing jeweler Heidi Bigknife for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Heidi's home. Heidi, you work in silver and gold and with semi-precious stones. Your jewelry has always combined a Native sensibility with contemporary forms, but it always has this kind of beautiful simplicity. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Bigknife: You're welcome.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Bigknife: I was born in Enid, and I grew up in Denver.

Little Thunder: What did your folks do for a living?

Bigknife: My mom, when I was born, she was a housewife, and my dad was training pilots at the Air Force base in Enid. He went on to be a commercial pilot, and my mom went on to work in the design field, interior design.

Little Thunder: Brothers or sisters?

Bigknife: I have one sister. She's two years younger than me.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side of your family?

Bigknife: I wasn't horribly close with my dad's parents. I think I had some kind of special relationship with his mom because I have some pictures of us when I was really little. She did a lot for me. His dad, I don't think I really had a closeness with his dad, my paternal grandfather. My mom's parents, I have memories of her dad, but we weren't close. I did have some time--probably the 2:00grandparent I had the most time with was my mom's mom.

Little Thunder: Is that on your Shawnee side?

Bigknife: Yes, that's my Shawnee side. I actually--I'm trying to think how long. I lived with her when I was in graduate school during the summer. I think it was my first summer. I lived with her for maybe a month. She was a really, really hard person to get to know, but she's probably the one, she's definitely the one I had most contact with.

Little Thunder: How important was your Shawnee heritage growing up?

Bigknife: Actually, when I was small I always knew I was Indian, but that's as 3:00far as it went. That's all I knew, but my mom always, you know, she always told us. It was always important to her. I knew, but it didn't really start to mean that much to me until, it was probably until I got to college. I wonder if it's when I took--I took a class there. Was it all American Indian history? Which seems surprising that it was at my school, but it seems like that's what it was.

I think that awakened something in me. Then right after I got my bachelor's, (it seems like I did just have a summer) I started at the Institute of American Indian Arts. I guess my identity really started to play a part in who I wanted 4:00to be and who I was and who I wanted to become.

Little Thunder: So your mom was doing a little bit of work in design. Can you talk about maybe how she or other--I don't know if there were other extended family members that were artistic?

Bigknife: My mom is very artistic. She's always drawn. I actually have several things in the house here that she's done. She has a very, she just has a really good eye. She can see color really well. She has a sense of balance, a real deep 5:00sense of balance. You know, that's so helpful in interior design because she can put a room together and say, "It's off. You need something else here," or "The color is off."

My sister, I think, was showing artistic talent but did not pursue it. Really, I mean, I feel like one of the closest things was, and it wasn't necessarily art, but I had one of my grandmother's sisters, a maternal great-aunt, worked for a watchmaker, I believe, in Wichita. That was the closest thing we can come to that has anything to do with jewelry, sort of, is that. I was encouraged, I guess, as a kid. My mom was constantly doing little craft projects with us and stuff.

Little Thunder: Like, for example?

Bigknife: Oh, one of the fun things I remember doing was we would get these Styrofoam, (you can still get them; it's stuff, probably, some kids still do) getting Styrofoam balls and egg shapes and stuff, and then you'd have pretty pins and like a sequin that you would put a pin through. It seems like we had Ric Rac and ribbons. It seems like we had clothes pins that we would make clothes for. (Laughter) I'm kind of remembering that. I can't remember--it must've been that we cut the fabric and then glued it around it or something, and it was those old clothes pins that had the rounded head. But really, from my mom, and I know mostly from her side of the family, I learned how to make something out of nothing. I'm still like that, and I think that's really a 7:00creative way of thinking.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of seeing Native art?

Bigknife: Oh, wow. I guess probably--I'm trying to think if my mom had some hanging up when we were growing up. My grandmother's house was just a treasure. I'm sure I saw some there. It would've been of the really stereotypical variety mixed in with Catholicism, so images from that and then family photos. It was 8:00just a really neat, kind of a kitschy mix. I think, it would either be my grandmother or my mom, something in our household when I was young.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of making art, doing art?

Bigknife: I know I did things earlier than this, but for some reason I remember being in a grade school class, and we were making--it must've been our class, and we were making boxes for Valentine's. Was that something we did every year, and then people, you know, classmates would put Valentines in your box or something?

It seems like mine was a cube, and I was covering it with these shapes that were 9:00suggestive of flowers made out of tissue paper. I don't know. You asked me that, and it's funny because I was just thinking of that memory today. I know I've thought of it before, and I wonder if that's the first time I thought that I wanted to be an artist. It might've been. I don't know.

Little Thunder: So you did know fairly early on that you wanted to be an artist?

Bigknife: I think I might've known early on. Then because of life happening and circumstances, I think I completely forgot, and I had no idea that I wanted to be an artist anymore.

Little Thunder: How about art experiences? What kinds of art experiences did you have in elementary school?

Bigknife: The closest thing I can think of would be--I was lucky enough to be in 10:00public grade school at a time when there must've been more money because we had a gifted and talented program. I know I got to do things with that program that I wouldn't otherwise have gotten to do, and not everyone who I was in school with got to do those things, either. It was, like, selective kids. It seems like we went on some tours of historic buildings or important architecture in Denver. There's a very good art museum in Denver. There's a very good natural history museum, and I'm sure I went to those when I was young.

Little Thunder: How about, like, junior high?

Bigknife: Gosh. Was I only thinking of boys in junior high? (Laughter) What was I doing in junior high?

Little Thunder: Or high school, just what you can remember about your art experiences.

Bigknife: I'm trying to think what classes I might've been taking, too. I remember becoming interested in writing in junior high, I guess the creative, artistic side of it because we read To Kill a Mockingbird. I think it was in my eighth grade class. I remember that was the first time I realized an author could imply something, but it was up to the reader to fill in the story. That was like a door opening for me. [I also took shop class and drafting in junior high. I was the only female in those classes.]

In high school--oh, duh! In high school I took photography, and that really got me going. That really was important. I took a photography class. It was black 12:00and white. We had a dark room. That was what I did in college was photography.

Little Thunder: How was it? Can you elaborate a little more about how it was so important?

Bigknife: I mean, in retrospect I think it ended up being really important because it was a way for me to express myself, and I hadn't been able to do that any other way. Of course, I had to fulfill my assignments, and I was a beginning photographer. I still have a lot of those images, but they're nothing to write home about. (Laughs) Then my senior year I had been picked to be part of, it was 13:00called People to People Student Ambassador Program, and so I went to Europe. We were gone for, I think it was six weeks and three home stays, and I met all these people from other high schools. Not everyone had graduated yet, and I had. When I came back I had just oodles of film, and my high school professor let me come back and print some of it there. Then I had a family member who had a dark room that I used.

You know, I cannot remember how it came about, but I had the idea to do some self-portraits. I made up my face, and it was all these black and white--I think 14:00I still have the pictures. I'd have to pull them out to remember exactly, but it was almost like I had a mask on in a way. I remember being really impacted by the group KISS. I was in grade school. I remember dressing up as Lady KISS and had black lips. Some of that was in my head, but those were, I think, my first self-portraits, and they're very intense. I think that was when I wanted to be a photographer. When I was taking pictures in college, I think I started out taking pictures of other people, but they were all portraits, and then I turned the camera on myself. I just was trying to figure out who I was.

Little Thunder: What was your folks' reaction to some of your photography in 15:00high school? Were they supportive of--

Bigknife: They were supportive at that point. It was my mom. I didn't see my dad very often. I'm trying to think if he thought some of them were weird. He was impressed. They were both impressed with the pictures I came back with from Europe, and I gave those as gifts. I'm trying to think if I only shot black and white. They were supportive. I think I decided I wanted to try to work for National Geographic, and I sent them a portfolio. (Laughter) My mom, she tells the story. I don't remember all of it, but she said she was really supportive of me.

Little Thunder: You went to college in Wisconsin. Is that right?

Bigknife: Yes.

Little Thunder: How did you end up there?

Bigknife: Really, it was only because I really wanted to get out of town. I had 16:00been accepted to another school which was only an hour away.

Little Thunder: In Colorado?

Bigknife: Yes, but it was a deferred enrollment, so I would have to wait until the spring. There was something in me that was like, "I've got to get out." I had a friend who had gotten into or had applied to Beloit College in Wisconsin. I don't know if I'd talked to him, but there was a connection there, and then I got in.

Little Thunder: As an art major?

Bigknife: Yes.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a little bit about the kind of background that you got in art in college?

Bigknife: Sadly, it wasn't very good. (Laughter) It's not known as an art school. I mean, it does have its own small art museum, and I think by now the 17:00programs might be a little more solid, but it was not a great prep school to go on and do more art, I'll say that. I don't think I came out of there--I had very little command of drawing.

Little Thunder: And you hadn't done any three-dimensional work?

Bigknife: I had done--I enjoyed my ceramics class. I did that. I made a lot of cool mugs. (Laughter) I must've had a 3D design class because I remember casting plaster in a milk carton and then carving it. It was pretty lame, actually. (Laughter) Mostly I did photography, and the photography professor, he probably had the broadest reputation in terms of people knowing his work. I don't know. 18:00It was what it was. I didn't come out very well prepared, I'll say that.

Little Thunder: What did you end up doing after you got your BA? Was it a BA?

Bigknife: Yes, I got my BA in Studio Art. I went straight into Institute of American Indian Arts.

Little Thunder: How did you find out about that?

Bigknife: I had a cousin, a first cousin, who was there. My mom, I think, was even more excited about it than I was because I think that if she could've done it when she was young, it was like her dream. That's how I knew about it was my cousin, and I went straight from my BA into IAIA.

Little Thunder: What was that like?

Bigknife: It was interesting. One of the greatest things about it was I had my bachelor's already, so I could take anything I wanted. I took photography. I kept doing photography.

Little Thunder: Who was teaching photography?

Bigknife: Meridel Rubenstein. I did some really great work while I was there. It felt big and important, and I can't believe how prolific I was. (Laughs) If I could do that now, I mean--I don't know. I look back and think, "It's so hard to know how good you've got it," because I didn't have all the pressures of being 20:00completely an adult yet, and so I was able to just work a lot. Then, of course, that's where I took my first jewelry class.

Little Thunder: With who?

Bigknife: It was Lane Coulter, and he was just awesome. Nobody in our beginning class knew he was anything at all, and it turned out he was super, super well-known and super famous, (Laughter) super great, but because of the type of person that he is, he was there teaching the class and so laid back. It was just great, and I took to it immediately.

Little Thunder: What kinds of things did you learn from him?

Bigknife: Soldering. I think I still have all the first pieces I made. I'm trying to think if I had one or two classes from him. Then I had one class--was it Preston Duwyenie? He's a potter now, but it seems like--no that must not be right. I don't know. Anyway, soldering. I know that we made a hinge in one of his classes. It was all the basics, stone setting, beginning stone setting. There was inlay. Several classes were inlay, raising, just basically everything, all the basics.

Little Thunder: Did you have the feeling at that moment maybe, "I like this as much as photography," or did you know the significance of your jewelry class yet?

Bigknife: I didn't know yet, but I must've really liked it because I know I came back for another class. At that time, with my access to all the studios, I did a huge project that was a mix of photography and metals, which was so great. I mean, that's what schools are so great for. You have all that access, and I don't think I realized yet. It's interesting because when I look back at the work I was doing, even in those beginning classes, it's like if I would've been the instructor I would've thought, "She's got something in here. It would be something to encourage this because something's happening." Whether I was 23:00completely aware of it or not, I don't know.

Little Thunder: That must've been a real inter-tribal education, too, for you, a cultural experience.

Bigknife: It was. I mean, it's also embarrassing to say it, but it was the time--I had never been around so many Indian people and known that the people were Indian and had access to inter-tribal ceremony, inter-tribal thought ways and culture ways. It really was a huge awakening about something that I didn't know was so important to me. Yes, it was really a big deal.

Little Thunder: So, after you left the Institute, what happened next?

Bigknife: I'm trying to think of how long it was after I left... It seems like I 24:00just got [the Helen Hardin Scholarship] through the mail. I went back to my mom's house in Denver, and she let me set up a jewelry studio in her basement. I had received--I can't tell you the exact date. I'm pretty sure it was after I graduated. I had received the Helen Hardin Memorial Scholarship, and it was a complete, complete surprise. To this day I do not know who nominated me for it. I took the money, and I bought jewelry supplies. I still have quite a few of them today. It's what I'm working from or with.

My mom let me set up a studio in her basement. I had worked at the Institute the 25:00whole time I was there, and one of the jobs I'd had was in the new museum shop downtown when the museum opened downtown. Through a contact there, I got a job at a gallery called Eagle Plume's in Allenspark, Colorado, which was between, seems like it was between, like, Boulder and Estes Park. It was far away. (Laughter) I commuted with the owner's daughter. I had that job for several months that summer, but I was starting to have several crises of my own and ended up leaving that job later in the year. I'm trying to think. I don't think I stayed the whole summer, but that's what I did right away. Then I knew, also, 26:00that I had been accepted to graduate school, so I was kind of like biding my time until I left for that.

Little Thunder: So you weren't trying to do any small shows, necessarily, although you were making jewelry?

Bigknife: It seems like I was trying to find places to sell. It seems like I might've gone into a store in Cherry Creek in Denver, but I don't remember trying to do any shows. Oh, I know. Some of my photography--was it during that summer? It seems like it was. There was a new photography teacher that I had actually been fortunate enough to take part in screening him for being hired because I was the manager of the photo lab.

His name is Larry McNeil, and I think he may still be at the Institute. I'm not 27:00sure. Anyway, he was coming onboard, and I think it was because of him. He got me into a show that I think was in Canada, so some of my photographs went up to Canada. Then also, I was covered in the Museum of New Mexico magazine with some of my photos, and so that work was out. Then there was a show at the Denver Art Museum. I can't remember how I got involved in that, but some of my photographs were there also. So my photography was being shown, but I don't think I was showing any jewelry.

Little Thunder: Was that Native [Indian/Inuit] Photographers Association in existence at that point? Do you remember?

Bigknife: I don't know, but it seems like it was.

Little Thunder: But it was a Native show?

Bigknife: It seems like it was a Native show.

Little Thunder: When did you sell your first piece of artwork, and was it a photograph, or was it jewelry, or do you remember?

Bigknife: I think it was when I was working at the museum shop, so it was probably '91 or '92. I was working in the museum gift shop. One of the other guys that worked at the museum commissioned me to make him a ring. He was Navajo. It seems like he was talking to me about three sacred mountains. I 29:00carved a wax with three mountain forms on it and then cast it for him. I'm not remembering selling any photographs, but I'm remembering making him that ring and selling it to him. It would've been '91 or '92.

Little Thunder: So you go on to graduate school at the University of Illinois. Is that right?

Bigknife: Oh, I lied. I remember selling a photograph! (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. Let's talk about that. (Laughter)

Bigknife: When I was in photography classes at the Institute, (I'm trying to think, did I take a photography class every semester? I think I did) I was doing these huge projects every time. I did this project where (I still have it) I 30:00made a costume. I don't know if I would even call it a costume. It was almost, in a sense, a regalia, sort of, my own interpretation of it because it was sort of a ribbon shirt idea.

I was taking fashion design, too. It was like a ribbon shirt idea, but I had made the collar and the fringe here at the seam--it was all suede. I was completely focused on self portraiture the whole time I was there. I had painted my face. No, that was a separate project, that outfit. Okay, I take that back. It was when I made the Santa outfit. (Laughter)

Okay, I made a Santa outfit, and I think I wore it with cowboy boots. I miss sewing. (Laughs) Anyway, it was also portraits, and I constructed a tree out of plywood with dowels coming out for all the branches. The tree was separate. I took all these pictures of myself dressed as Santa, and I think I wrote it on the wall behind me. It was called The Day Before Columbus. I mean, I can't tell you my exact thought process at this point, but it was like it was serious but it was also humorous.

I had these million pictures, black and white pictures. I then went in the dark room, and I printed, like, maybe forty of them or something, and I mounted them 32:00on black mat board. They were maybe three inches by two and a half inches, and I made them all into ornaments and hung them all on the tree. I think I might've made a skirt for it. I don't remember. Meridel Rubenstein, the instructor, the professor, was instrumental in getting the museum to buy that.

Little Thunder: Wow.

Bigknife: I think it was when Rick Hill was at the museum. They bought that, and I think at one point, they didn't know where it was.

Little Thunder: Now, when you say museum, do you mean the Institute Museum or the Heye [George Gustav Heye Center]?

Bigknife: The Institute Museum.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Bigknife: I did sell that, and I don't remember if it was a lot or a little. I think I was just really excited that they bought it. So I had sold jewelry and photography.

Little Thunder: So you go on to graduate school, University of Illinois. How did 33:00you happen to choose that place?

Bigknife: Because I was crazy. (Laughs) No, I try to never say that about myself, but really. I applied to three schools. One of them was--which university is in Tempe? Is it University of Arizona? I can't remember because I think there's one in Phoenix and one in Tempe. Did I apply to both? Honestly, I know why I applied there. It was because I knew and had had several conversations with Charlene Teters, and she had gone there.

Little Thunder: Do you want to explain who she is?

Bigknife: Charlene Teters is a Spokane woman. She's an artist and an activist. She has, I think, probably built a lot of her, maybe, professional life and 34:00activist career since going to the university, which for many, many, many years had a fake Indian chief as its mascot. Anyway, so that was how I found out about it. She was the one to inform me, there's a stipend for American Indian students and so on, and so I went ahead and applied there.

I got into all the schools that I applied to. I visited Tempe. It seems like I was at the Phoenix and the Tempe dark rooms or someplace in Arizona I applied. It seems like there was another place, and I can't think of it. The University 35:00of Illinois, I went to visit, and honestly, I didn't like it from the minute I was there, even when I visited. I think the reason I went back was because I had a full ride and a stipend, so that was how I ended up there.

Little Thunder: What kind of art background did you get there?

Bigknife: It was interesting because I applied there for the photography program, and that was when I was beginning to transition into jewelry. I got there and, oh, wow, was I ever ill-prepared, truly ill-prepared. I had had the highest glowing recommendations from people at the Institute, and Meridel Rubenstein is extremely well-known in her field, a lot of accolades, great 36:00artist. I thought that I really had been doing important things. I got there, and I don't know. I think, honestly, part of what happened was I was brought in as part of a quota, so there was a lot of resentment. Not only that, I truly was ill-prepared. I did not have the technical background that most of my peers had, and I ended up actually taking an undergraduate color photo course to try to play catch-up on some things. Very ill-prepared.

Not only that, ill-prepared psychologically, especially coming right out of the Institute. Number one, I was in culture shock. Number two, "Really, there's 40,000 students here?" And IAIA, what were we, like 300? I was completely 37:00overwhelmed. Then my professors, it felt like they were anything but supportive. Looking back and speaking with other people about the graduate experience and seeing how they treated other people sometimes, I wonder if that is just part of the graduate experience, is that kind of the MO is to break the student. That sure seemed like a poor way to have an art experience, to me, because I was ending up needing to express--a lot of times art comes from a vulnerable place, and it really was a poor place to be doing that. I can't remember what exactly you asked me.

Little Thunder: Just about your art experiences.

Bigknife: Okay, yes. It was very difficult. Some awesome things came from it, 38:00too, because I had the opportunity to use video. Again, I did all self-portrait stuff, and I loved the sound booth. I made this long video. I think I really ended up struggling so much with my identity when I was there. The mascot was so pervasive and so troubling, and I felt like I wasn't getting any cultural support at all.

I made this big, it was a very tortured video, really. (Laughs) In fact, it was so tortured that when I showed it to the class, everyone attacked me. I think it 39:00touched them so deeply that it freaked everyone out because it was quite a moving experience. I think because of some of the insecurities I was having about my photo skills and also because I'd been moving into 3D, I started doing installation when I was there, too, and video. I was enjoying the video more than the still photography, and the installation more, and I was also introduced to computers and Photoshop there, and I really was enjoying that a lot.

Little Thunder: But not doing anymore jewelry classes there?

Bigknife: No. They did have a graduate jewelry program there, and there was talk 40:00of me trying to get into it. I was still making jewelry when I was there, and I was actually filling commissions from people, small commissions. I had studio space, and I had my jeweler's bench. I brought my jeweler's bench with me. Before I had the studio space, I had a garage that I was working out of. Then once I got the space, I moved the bench into there, and I did fill some small commissions.

Little Thunder: So were the commissions from people that you knew?

Bigknife: Yes, it was other students.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Bigknife: But I never did take a jewelry class. I think some of my jewelry was interesting, but I think I had an inflated sense of how far I was along in my jewelry expression.

Little Thunder: So you didn't quite finish out the program there. Is that correct?

Bigknife: I did not. I stayed for a year and a half, and I'd had enough.

Little Thunder: What did you do then?

Bigknife: Tried not to have a nervous breakdown. I think I did, anyway. (Laughter) I fell apart. Is that something I want to reveal in this interview? I left. I actually packed up and moved to Tulsa and was here for a while and then moved back to Santa Fe for a while and then moved back here.

Little Thunder: Now, were you starting to get your work into shops, your jewelry into shops, or doing shows at that point?

Bigknife: I was starting to do shows. I think the first Indian art show I did 42:00was the Tulsa Indian Art Festival. I'm trying to think if when I did that was right after--was that right after I had left the Institute? For some reason I remember having all my jewelry equipment in my car and setting it up in one of my aunt's garages here in Tulsa and that I hadn't moved here yet. I don't know what the deal was with that, but I do know my first show was at Tulsa Indian Art Festival for Indian art show. I'm trying to think if that was the first time I was selling jewelry that way. I can't remember.

Little Thunder: When did you win your first competitive award for jewelry?

Bigknife: I think it was at the Tulsa Indian Art Festival.

Little Thunder: Was it that same first show that you did?

Bigknife: It may have been.

Little Thunder: Was it a first place?

Bigknife: It seems like it was a second. I think it was a second place.

Little Thunder: So how did that impact you?

Bigknife: I was probably excited, but honestly I don't remember. All that just seems too hazy to pull that particular thing out.

Little Thunder: As you started moving into doing shows, how do you think your jewelry was different from that of other jewelers?

Bigknife: I guess, you know, the jewelry looks so different in the Indian art 44:00world in general, compared to jewelry outside that.

Little Thunder: Because of materials and approaches or--

Bigknife: That's part of it, and I think also there's often repetition of design. I knew my work was different already. I was using alternative materials. I was already using Plexiglas. My work didn't look like the work I'd been 45:00looking at or other Indian jewelers' work. Whether I was conscious of it or not, it was already more contemporary.

Little Thunder: And you really hadn't been looking at other non-Native jewelry very much, either.

Bigknife: I had not. There were lots of time periods where I didn't even look at other art. I knew it was different, and it was different. I think, also, probably one of the great things about going to the Institute was nobody ever told me no. I think one time Lane said, "It might be kind of hard to do that," but I was like, "So?" (Laughter) That was a very nurturing environment. There 46:00were a lot of great people there when I was there doing very creative things. Honestly, yes, I didn't have the sense that I couldn't do something yet.

Little Thunder: So were you working a job part-time while you were making your jewelry when you were back in Tulsa?

Bigknife: I was. I'd got a job at MotoPhoto, and I was doing that for quite a while. Then a family friend introduced me to the world of temporary work, and I started doing quite a lot of that. There's a funny story with that because growing up I had a very dear friend, my next door neighbor, Karen. Sometimes it 47:00was just the two of us. Sometimes my sister would be there, too.

She was kind of the surprise baby for her parents, so all the other kids were gone part of the time that we knew one another. Her older sister's bedroom was no longer occupied, and it was big. We set up what we thought of as a store in there, like everything in the room was for sale, and we called it Boatinsky's Everything Shop. Don't ask me where we got that. (Laughter) We were constantly taking phone calls for orders, and we made order slips. It was like playing office, and we're rubber stamping everything. (Laughter) When I started doing temporary work, it was fun. It was a little nerve-wracking to be going to a new job all the time, but it was like playing office, and I really liked that.

Little Thunder: So were you doing any Native shows beyond the Festival, or were you just trying all kinds of shows?

Bigknife: It seems like I was trying to show anywhere I could. For a little while I showed with Linda Greever at the Art Market here in Tulsa. I remember doing this horrible little festival. I did little festival things, too, at the Cookson Hills. Oh, it was a complete flop, sold nothing, and it rained. It was horrible. At that point, I was hauling around my kitchen table to show my jewelry.

I think I set up one time at the fairgrounds. That was not profitable. Was 49:00anybody else showing my stuff? Oh, I thought I was going to be showing with--there used to be a little gallery in Brookside. It was a co-op gallery. I think one of the people with the co-op had seen my work because it seems like I'd been invited to come in for something.

I showed up with my jewelry and was told that either they had invited someone else or I was no longer wanted. I mean, it was horrible. (Laughs) Thankfully, I just picked myself up and walked across the street to this boutique called Mango and Salsa and said, "Can I show my jewelry here?" She said yes, and so she had my jewelry for a little while.

Little Thunder: As you were starting out doing Native art shows, and as you say, 50:00your jewelry is a very different look from a lot of other Native jewelry, did it take the public a while to come around? What was a series that you started to do that just really sold for you?

Bigknife: Well, you know, my family had been supportive. My aunt had bought some pieces from me. I think it was when I got the opportunity to take a job in Santa Fe with, I think it was the Native American something Film Festival. It only lasted for two years. I was brought in to--it seems like I was volunteer coordinator. I was offered that job. I was living here in a space that I really loved, but it seemed like a good opportunity, and I picked up and moved out 51:00there and took the job.

Gosh, did it last for three months, maybe? Then I was like, "What am I going to do?" I had some friends, one of whom is a jeweler, her and her husband. She's been extremely successful. It's Shawn Bluejacket. She told me, "Heidi, why don't you go get a part-time job at a hotel, and then you can work on your jewelry part-time, and then go up to the flea market and sell your work on the weekends."

I thought that was a good idea, and so I got a job at a hotel in Santa Fe part-time and started. I had a studio in one of the bedrooms of--I think I had a townhome or something I was living in. I remember making these birdhouse shapes 52:00out of, I think it was copper and silver and maybe tin. You know, [the Genetic Memory series of dresses] may have been before I went out to Santa Fe. That's where it may have started, was here in Tulsa. I don't know where I got the inspiration, but I made some of those dresses, and they were more crude then. They were not as soft.

Little Thunder: The lines weren't.

Bigknife: The lines weren't as soft. The edges weren't as soft. They just weren't as refined. I had gotten into a little show on the East Coast. It was like women artists only or something. I had sent several of those in. Back then 53:00what I was doing, I was doing them all kinds of ways. I had things hanging off the bottom, and a copper dress with some silver wire that was stitched through the center of it, and beads were on the end, just all kind of different ways. Then I think I just kept making them when I was in Santa Fe, and they got more and more refined. When I was there, I remember making a copper pair with a little pair of hands hanging off the ends, silver hands. I was more creative with them.

Little Thunder: Were you using the horse hair in Santa Fe?

Bigknife: Sometimes, but not all the time. Yes.

Little Thunder: And were you thinking of them as a series? Had you given them a title?

Bigknife: Oh, you know what? It actually really started in graduate school 54:00because when I was there I was having such a disturbing time with the faculty and the culture there that I really was having an identity crisis. I remember wanting to communicate that I felt like I knew things that I was born knowing. No one had to teach me them. I knew them from my genetics. I remember making some pieces with my own hair, wrapping copper wire around it and putting them in a frame. Nobody got it at all, and it seems when I look back it's almost a 55:00continuation of that because the series is called Genetic Memory series. That was when the struggle with that started, trying to communicate that.

Little Thunder: What do you consider your most important award for your jewelry to date?

Bigknife: Oh my gosh. Well, even though I'm not sure who nominated me for the Helen Hardin scholarship, that feels very important. I'm trying to think. I've gotten an honorable mention at the Heard [Museum]. I guess probably a close 56:00second would be I got a second place in 2011 at Indian Market, and I literally started crying. (Laughter) That was important to me, but I think that scholarship, too, because--

Little Thunder: Was that for a pin or a bracelet?

Bigknife: The Indian Market?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Bigknife: It was a pin. It was a pin.

Little Thunder: And you haven't been doing Indian Market all that long, have you?

Bigknife: No.

Little Thunder: How many years has it been?

Bigknife: Was it only my second time? I haven't been doing it very long, so second or third.

Little Thunder: It seems like there's always been this really strong subtext if not overt message about political and social issues in your work. How do you 57:00think that these get reflected in your jewelry? Jewelry seems like a place where--

Bigknife: It wouldn't belong or it couldn't fit in or--

Little Thunder: --it couldn't fit in, right.

Bigknife: It's funny that you say that, but I guess it really is that. It has that sensibility to it. Some of my work that I've done, I've been able to be a little more literal about it because I think a lot of what I do is really tiny sculpture. For a while, (I don't know if it was two years) I started making these, almost, text boxes. I was making boxes out of silver and then putting in 58:00a thing of text. I have a couple of old, manual typewriters, so I can really make it look cool, putting little slips of paper in there or fabric, and then covering it with Plexiglas, and then pushing the bezel around it.

With that, I was able to literally communicate stuff. That's been a way for me to do that. If I really want to say something outright with my other work, in a sense, I guess that, you know, the Genetic Memory series is saying something really more artfully and not as literally, but that's there, too.

Little Thunder: I've also seen your work described as whimsical, which I think it really does have this whimsy to it. Why is that important to you?

Bigknife: I don't know that it's so much that it's important to me, but that's just what it is. It seems like that's just what it is, without me really thinking about it. That must be part of my personality because I think a lot of times it does come through. I'm not thinking about it; it just comes out.

Little Thunder: How much of your work is commissions, and how much of your income is derived from booth shows? Is it about half and half?

Bigknife: Booth and gallery, I would say, is probably at least 80 percent if not more. I actually really don't enjoy commissions very much, probably because I'm an artist. I want to make what I want to make. (Laughter) The good thing about 60:00commissions sometimes is it forces me to look at something in a different way or to make a new tool or to learn something new or to push myself some other way. It is a fairly small part of my income compared to the other sales.

Little Thunder: What's one of your most important galleries right now?

Bigknife: I would say my most important gallery is Four Winds Gallery in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. They've really done great for me. I'm in a very, to me, a very important gallery, in Shiprock [Gallery], Santa Fe. For whatever reason, the Four Winds Gallery is doing really great for me.

Little Thunder: Have they brought you out there in person for shows, too?

Bigknife: We talked about me going out, (were we going to do it this month, or 61:00was it last weekend?) maybe it was even last weekend, for a holiday show, but they were not going to cover any of my expenses, and the sales would all be consignment. I made the decision that it wouldn't be cost-effective.

Little Thunder: And then how many booth shows do you do, roughly, per year?

Bigknife: Five, maybe.

Little Thunder: Major--

Bigknife: Yes.

Little Thunder: Your metals, I guess, have changed a little bit. We're going to talk a bit about your artistic approaches and techniques. What are you working with now that's your favorite thing?

Bigknife: I started a series (was it even three years ago?) called the Woodland Dreams series, and that continues to keep my wheels turning a little bit in the 62:00studio. I'm Shawnee, and my tribe was originally a Woodlands tribe. I started trying to look at anything that was from that area, that culture area, and a lot of it is floral and leaf motifs.

I was looking especially at bandolier bags and got a lot of inspiration from that. I'm still continuing to look at that and think about it. I most recently had checked out a really thick book about trees from the library. I was looking at trees that grew in my tribal region. One of my most recent things I did from 63:00that series was a pair of earrings. They were gold and chrysoprase. I called them Sassafras Leaf Earrings because I had done little sassafras leaves with the cabochon hanging down from the bottom of the leaf.

Little Thunder: Neat. Do you think in terms of titles for just series or also individual pieces? Do you always have kind of a title in mind?

Bigknife: I don't always. With the Woodland Dreams series, quite a bit of it was just, like, Necklace Number 1, Necklace Number 2, and then some of them were individual, like Japonica Earrings or Sassafras Leaf Earrings. I did some 64:00maidenhair fern, oak leaf. Some of them were more individual. Then some of the political pieces I've done, I've taken their titles from the text in the box if they have a text box.

Little Thunder: Do you want to explain what the japonica is? That's been popular. I've seen you selling quite a bit of that.

Bigknife: That is a five-petal flower that grows on the japonica shrub. That was probably the beginning of the Woodland Dreams series because I honestly don't know if those grow in that area. (Laughter) I walk my dogs every day, and that's one of the first things that blooms in the spring. I just had, like, zeroed in on looking at flora and fauna and thought, "Wow, wouldn't that be a cool, that five-petal." I've also been doing some five-petal things that I'm calling Strawberry Flower because that's a big motif for Woodlands, and so I've been 65:00doing some strawberry flower things also.

Little Thunder: What other kinds of research do you do besides what you've mentioned, walking, I guess, and then books? What other kinds of research do you do?

Bigknife: Well, one of the things I do when I really get stuck is I have several old encyclopedias in my studio. I might've even have picked them up out of the garbage. Some, I think, came from an actual garage sale, but nobody wants those anymore. I will just start looking through the encyclopedia, literally, and sometimes I will get ideas that way. Sometimes it's from--I was pretty upset when George W. Bush was president about a lot of political issues. That was a 66:00big inspiration for a series of work. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What series was that?

Bigknife: One of them was Habeas Corpses. I only ended up with one thing from that series. (Laughter) And then the other was--there was not a title, but it was all about that. There were several pieces that came out of it. One of them was (I still have it, actually) the "terror alert level." I used the colors and the words from that to make a necklace that I called Insecurity Blanket. Then there was a piece that I did, actually, it was for a show. I did it for a humor 67:00show in Norman, and it was called The Devil and His Dog, and it was Cheney and Bush. It was a pin, but it laid down on a dog bed that I made. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Do you sketch things out before you try a design? Do you do a lot of sketching?

Bigknife: I do. I do a lot of sketching. I guess, probably, I have a lot better drawing skill than the average person, and I just think I'm not very good. I can at least get something enough that I know what I'm making. I actually have gotten more and more particular about taking pretty detailed notes on my work. That way if I need to go back and see how I made the piece because I want to 68:00make a similar one, or like recently, something came back to me from the gallery for a repair, I was able to look it up and say, "Okay, I do have all the pieces."

Little Thunder: So you're taking notes on the process?

Bigknife: I take notes on the process, and I take notes on how many of each component and the measurements and weight and all that.

Little Thunder: I think I remember at some point you switched from your dad's name, your surname, to your grandma's name. Is that right?

Bigknife: Yes.

Little Thunder: What made you decide to--Bigknife: You know, I think part of it was I needed to legitimize myself more somehow in the Indian art world. It was probably an insecurity issue. Part of it was also a pride issue. It was 69:00important to me. My Indian identity was so much more important to me. It seemed like a good idea to have that out. Then, because my grandmother was still alive, I was able to ask her about it, which was, I thought, good.

Little Thunder: I guess I haven't looked closely at your signature. I always admire the jewelry. Do you have a particular--we'll see it on video, hopefully.

Bigknife: Oh a hallmark on my work?

Little Thunder: Your hallmark, yes.

Bigknife: I'll do two different things. I'll either sign my name with a lower-case H, just "heidi," or (I got this idea from another artist, but I thought it was a good one) I use an H and a B and stamp it.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the best business tips that you got from another artist?

Bigknife: [Ben and Barbara Harjo have helped me enormously in terms of connections with artists, friends, and shows.] I've gotten some good tips on pricing. I've had issues with not charging enough for my work, and I've needed some help on that. I think I really did get some valuable advice from Shawn Bluejacket and her husband on getting started. I think, you know, when I look at the overall scope of trying to do what I'm doing, I feel like I've gotten sort of a good living example from a lot of the artists I know because I never thought to myself, "Oh, there's no way I can do this." Nobody at the Institute 71:00ever said, "There's no way you can't make your living as an artist or just be an artist."

Now, when I meet people outside this world, so often people look at me like, "Really?" So it's good that I wasn't listening to those kinds of voices in the beginning because I think there are a lot of people--a lot of nay saying. I guess that's what I'm getting at.

Little Thunder: So what is your creative process from the time you get an idea? How does it unfold?

Bigknife: I don't know. Probably I start making sketches, or with some things I'll make a photocopy of something and then shrink it down. Metals have gotten 72:00so expensive that whereas I would've been really quick to try to almost make a prototype of something in the beginning, I don't want to do that now unless I'm going to try to make something out of copper first. A lot of my things are so labor intensive that I really don't even want to do that. I guess a lot of it's internal, just trying to reason it out. I think I heard a story on NPR one time, and it was talking about how maybe the outside world doesn't realize the extent to which artists are problem solvers because, I mean, it's just a problem a minute-- (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Exactly.

Bigknife: --and I'm out there trying to solve it before I get started. Then sometimes my process is--sometimes I get scared. I'm so scared to do something 73:00that it might take me a couple months until I even get my hand into it at all.

Little Thunder: What's your creative routine? Do you work in the morning as opposed to night, or do you work a certain numbers of hours a day?

Bigknife: I've been slacking a lot recently. (Laughs) My ideal routine would be to get out to my studio about nine or ten in the morning. A lot of times it's not until noon or one if I have things to do in the morning. Then I tend to work until about eight at night, unless I'm under some kind of deadline and I need more hours. Then I come in, and I'm done for the night. I'm not a person who stays up all night working. I'm not that kind of a worker. That's usually my routine.

Little Thunder: Well, looking back on your career so far, what was a real turning point for you when you might've gone one way but you chose to go another?

Bigknife: Oh, last month. (Laughter) It seems like I have a crisis about three times a year. Oh, gosh. I guess I've been at the verge of not doing this anymore so many times because it is so hard. I don't know what keeps me going, something internal in one way [or] another. I think, to me, [the dilemma is] one way or another way, a lot of times is "Am I going to go out and try to get a full-time job somewhere, or am I going to get in the studio and make stuff because I know there's money out there for me if I will make the work? Somebody's going to buy 75:00it." That's really a fear thing, I guess. That's pretty frequent.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points of your career so far? It might be something you mentioned, but--

Bigknife: Last year was awesome career-wise I think because my sales were so good. I hate to link having a great year with that, but really it was very helpful. I made a piece for a show--I'm trying to think if there are other galleries in Seattle--it's called Velvet Da Vinci. I made a piece for a show; it was an anti-war metal show. It was when the Iraq War was still going on. It was a scary piece to make because it was quite controversial, really. It ended up 76:00getting reviewed in, I think it was Metalsmith magazine, and I didn't even know it!

I had asked an instructor at OSU to help me with a technique. I had gone there that day, and he congratulated me. I said, "For what?" (Laughter) I couldn't believe it. I can't remember if it was when we broke for lunch or if it was that evening, but I, of course, ran to a bookstore and bought all the copies that they had.

Little Thunder: That's cool. Who was the instructor?

Bigknife: I'm so embarrassed. I'm not remembering his last name [Ramsay]. His first name is Chris. He's very well-known, very talented.

Little Thunder: So what's been one of the low points of your career so far?

Bigknife: Oh, whenever I have a crisis! (Laughter) Gosh, it's like, "Can I pick one?" A low point. Well, I mean, I guess there's been times I've been going through things in my personal life where I feel like, "How can I keep doing this?" In some ways, that was last year, also. Yet, it seems like, I feel like, when the most terrible things have happened, those are the times when a lot of great work comes out.

I don't mean that in the sense that I think I have to be in crisis all the time 78:00to make great work, because I don't, but even out of a hard time, good things can come out in my work. I would say it's just a constant struggle. It's like this (gesturing). I hope that someday it's going to be more like this (gesturing), always, you know, for all the time. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to add or anything we forgot to talk about before we look at your work?

Bigknife: I guess that the work I do, the two-dimensional paper work I do, the collage work is really important to me. I don't do it a lot, but it's extremely personal, and it's a way that I'm unable to communicate through the metal. I am able to communicate through my paper, my collage work, so that's important to 79:00me, too.

Little Thunder: Yes, I think we should get a picture of one of your collages, too. All right, we'll get ready to set that up to look at your work. Would you like to tell us about this piece?

Bigknife: This is one of the pieces I mentioned in the interview. This is the "terror alert level necklace," which I titled Insecurity Blanket. Some of it's computer-generated text, which I had--oh, what do they call that? It was iron-on transfer onto this colored muslin. I had to find the fabric and make all my silver boxes and put the fabric in and the Plexiglas on top and then bezel set. Another added dimension is, of course, like for a lot of tribes, our ceremonial 80:00wear is made out of this calico, so there's another dimension to this.

Little Thunder: That's neat.

Bigknife: Some of the inspiration for this necklace is obviously the terror alert level and the colors. I remember thinking when I would hear on the radio, "It's a severe day," or "a high level day" or "elevated," I never felt any better about it. It was to let me know it was going on, but I never felt any better. I think that's part of the reason I got the idea for the title, Insecurity Blanket.

Little Thunder: Right.

Bigknife: These are some of the Genetic Memory series pieces. I've kind of gotten to the point where I'm not doing all kinds of things with it anymore. It's really refined down to several different patterns that I use in the stamp work, and this is one of them. Of course, [horse hair] in the middle and the 81:00patina and the stamp work, so it's just the dress shape.

Little Thunder: And the earrings. Would you like to tell us about these?

Bigknife: These are part of the Woodland Dreams series. These are obviously earrings, and I think I mentioned in my interview that I've been using Plexiglas. Thermoplastic is kind of the generic term. These are green thermoplastic with fourteen-carat ear wires, and this is the japonica shape, japonica earring.

Little Thunder: And this is one of your collages.

Bigknife: This is one of my collages. This is torn paper on watercolor paper, and I do a lot of torn paper on watercolor paper for my collage work. Sometimes I will add pencil or Cray-Pas, but a lot of times it's just paper on paper. This 82:00piece is called Undecision. I was having to make a decision about an important relationship to me, whether it was time to end it or not. I was really struggling with that. I can explain more, but--

Little Thunder: Whatever you're comfortable with.

Bigknife: This was a relationship that I was having a struggle with, deciding whether or not it was time to end it. The collage work, I think, is very helpful for me to access feelings like that, deep things that I'm trying to work out but don't seem to come out in any other way.

Little Thunder: It looks like a profile, almost, from a distance, but that's actually an older photograph of you, or just--

Bigknife: It's actually from a magazine, so it's very anonymous.

Little Thunder: It's an arm.

Bigknife: It's an arm and a hand and a shoulder from a woman.

Little Thunder: Right. All right, well, thank you very much for your time today, Heidi.

Bigknife: Thank you, Julie.

------- End of interview -------