Oral history interview with Judy Coser

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, November 8, 2012, and I'm interviewing Kickapoo bead artist Judy Coser for the Oklahoma Native Artists Project sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Judy's home in Mounds, Oklahoma. Judy, you've won a number of awards in beadwork and cultural items, and your works are in the permanent collection of several Oklahoma museums, including Philbrook and Gilcrease. You also make traditional clothing and have taught workshops in a number of areas. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

Coser: It's a pleasure.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Coser: I was born in Lawton, Oklahoma, and I grew up in and around Shawnee.

Little Thunder: What did your dad do for a living?

Coser: He was a leather craftsman.

Little Thunder: As I remember, your grandparents on both sides were gone when you were growing up, but you learned a lot about Kickapoo ways. Besides your 1:00dad, were there any other extended family members important to you growing up?

Coser: My great-uncle and his wife. My great-grandmother. We had an older cousin, my dad's niece, and that's about it.

Little Thunder: Did you grow up speaking your language?

Coser: No.

Little Thunder: But you were exposed to your dad's leather work?

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: How did that impact you as a child?

Coser: Well, he was gone a lot because he had to go where the work was. When we lived in Shawnee for the first four years of my life, he didn't really do much work at home. It was after, when we moved to the country near McCloud, he had all his tools, and he had a huge granite rock that he did his stamping on. It 2:00was there that I noticed that he could sit for the longest time and work.

Coser: You know, you're a kid going in and out of the house, and you just don't even think about things like that. It was later that I realized that while he was working on his stuff, he would sing. He would sing to himself, and I think that's where I got that. It's not that I sing to myself when I'm working. (Laughter) It's just that you can do a lot of thinking when you're working with your hands.

Little Thunder: Did you have any family members around you who beaded growing up?

Coser: No.

Little Thunder: What about, like, art classes at school? Did you get to take any 3:00art classes when you were in elementary or junior high?

Coser: Well, not that kind of art classes. I mean, they let us draw, and I always enjoyed that. It wasn't until I got into college that I was able to take drawing classes.

Little Thunder: Let's see, you went to college where?

Coser: St. Gregory's [University], one semester at OCU [Oklahoma City University], and I graduated from OU.

Little Thunder: What was your reaction when you got to take those first art classes?

Coser: I liked it.

Little Thunder: Was it drawing or drawing and painting?

Coser: It was charcoal. That's all I remember. It was charcoal, and I just really enjoyed it.

Little Thunder: When did you start becoming interested in beadwork?

Coser: When I was about twelve years old my great-aunt gave me a loom, and I slowly started acquiring beads and learned different techniques. We used to go to this [Religious Society of] Friends church, and every summer they would send us to this camp up there in northeast Oklahoma. There was a lady up there. She taught us how to make beaded medallions.

Well, I was watching the others do it, and I listened to her. These other girls that were in that little group were having a hard time, so I just explained to them what they were supposed to be doing. I wasn't actually doing the beading. I just explained to them. They looked at me really odd, wondering how come I knew 5:00when I wasn't working on anything.

Anyway, that was my first experience with that. Over the years, I've just looked at things and wondered how they were made. A lot of people say that they can't learn techniques from books. Well, I can, (Laughter) which is kind of unusual. I don't know. It's just always come natural to me.

Little Thunder: I was wondering, did you do a couple of pieces on your loom, too, as you got the beads that you needed?

Coser: Yes, I liked that in the beginning, but after so many years I got burned out with that. So I don't hardly do any loom work now.

Little Thunder: A lot of young women will get into making earrings for extra money or things like that. They'll do that for a while, and then they won't 6:00really bead after that. What prompted you to continue your beadwork?

Coser: Well, we lived out in the country, and for the longest time our only means of transportation was to go to school by school bus. Then we went to this Friends church [the Kickapoo Friends Center, a mission run by the Religious Society of Friends], like I said, and they would come pick us up on Sunday. So that was another way to go someplace. Unless my great-uncle came for us, we didn't go anywhere. We lived in a crowded house, and other than school and going to church once a week, there really wasn't a whole lot to do. It kind of gave me something to do.

It wasn't until I was in junior high that the people that were at the church 7:00changed, and they got a couple in there. They were interested in everything about the tribe or the people that were from the tribe that would go to that church. They started buying beadwork, and they were interested in my stuff, so it gave me a little spending money.

Little Thunder: Right.

Coser: Not that I had any place to go spend it! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I think dancing's been important to you for a long time. Were you also starting to powwow dance a little bit in your teens?

Coser: Yes, I think I got my love of dancing from my great-grandmother. She was dancing for years and years and years. I think that if she hadn't fallen and 8:00broken her hip when she did, she probably would've danced until the day she died.

Little Thunder: And also, you're a jingle dress dancer. Did you dance competitively for a while?

Coser: Yes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you make your own clothing and your beadwork and stuff?

Coser: Yes, yes. Everything.

Little Thunder: I was kind of wondering if when people saw your beadwork, your clothing, if that spurred requests for, "Could you do something for me? Could you make me a dress?"

Coser: Well, I was very selective in who I made dresses for. For one thing, the material for all of it was very expensive, so, like I said, I was very selective 9:00in whoever I made dresses for. As far as the things like the moccasins and the leggings, you know, that was even more expensive, and I just didn't want to do that.

Little Thunder: Of course, the sewing part requires a sewing machine. When did you first get access to a sewing machine?

Coser: Before or after I got married? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I guess before you got married.

Coser: There was an old treadle sewing machine that we had.

Little Thunder: At the house?

Coser: Yes, my great-grandmother had one, and we had one, so that's where I learned how to sew. Then we were required--I think when I was a freshman in high school, we were required to take home ec, and I was introduced to an electric sewing machine. I didn't like it as much as I did that little treadle. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Why not?

Coser: I don't know. It just seemed like you had more control.

Little Thunder: I don't know if you ever set up at powwows and sell beadwork. I don't know if you did that, as well. Did you do a little bit of that?

Coser: I think I was, like, a freshman in high school, and there was a group of other, I guess, bead craftsman and people that did arts and crafts from the Native population in Shawnee. We got involved with them, and they put on a craft show. That was a lot of fun. I don't remember if I sold anything or not, but it 11:00was fun. Gosh, that was a long time ago! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What was fun about it?

Coser: Just seeing what everybody else was doing.

Little Thunder: Being around people and showing your work. There weren't any little Indian stores or gift shops in town that you would occasionally sell to?

Coser: No.

Little Thunder: You did go to Northeastern State [University] then for a while, didn't you?

Coser: Well, after I got out of OU, I got into a graduate program there, but I didn't like it.

Little Thunder: Talk to me a little bit about being at OU. You had taken some art classes, I guess, previously. Did you take any more at OU?

Coser: I took a life drawing class.

Little Thunder: And what was your major?

Coser: Political science. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What didn't you like about the NSU program?

Coser: I just didn't like being over in that area.

Little Thunder: When and where did you meet George, your husband, George Coser?

Coser: Well, it was, I want to say about 19--it was in the '70s. There used to be this powwow in Shawnee. My parents, especially my dad, he never [let us] stay after the powwow was over because of the things that went on. My cousins, they lived in Shawnee, but they camped out at that powwow. Anyway, she got her mother 13:00to ask my dad if I could spend the night with her. He said okay, and I was shocked. (Laughter)

We were walking around after the powwow, and she had run into some people that she knew, and so she was talking and visiting with them. I'm standing there and didn't really know anybody, so I'm just standing there and watching everything that was going on. Pretty soon, I saw this guy making a beeline for her. He just stood out because--I know people wore hats, but he had this big straw hat on, cowboy hat.

Anyway, he went over to her, and then pretty soon she was really laughing, and he just kept--I guess he was teasing her. Then after a while, he moved on. She 14:00came over to where I was, and I asked her, "Who was that guy?" She said, "Oh, that was George Coser. He's always after me." (Laughter)

What was weird was there's a state park in Illinois called Kickapoo State Park, and they were having some kind of celebration. I think this is 19--I want to say '72 or '73. Anyway, I was part of a group that went up there for that, and George was one of the singers. I had no idea.

Little Thunder: Saw him again. (Laughs)

Coser: No, I didn't even know he was there! It wasn't until after we were married we were talking about things we'd done. He told me, and I had no idea 15:00he'd been there.

Little Thunder: Had he spotted you, though?

Coser: I doubt it. (Laughter) I was still in high school, and I guess he was in college.

Little Thunder: When you two got together seriously and got married, when did that happen?

Coser: In 1989.

Little Thunder: Had you undertaken a really large beading project prior to that?

Coser: No.

Little Thunder: So what was your first really major piece?

Coser: Fully-beaded leggings, a belt and hair ties and a barrette for myself. Everything was based on a pair of moccasins that had been made for me.

Little Thunder: Were there any special challenges in doing that?

Coser: Accumulating the beads because I had no idea how much it was going to take for the background. I just knew that's what I wanted to do was have everything based on those moccasins, and I did it.

Little Thunder: How long did it take?

Coser: I want to say about a year.

Little Thunder: I bet they were beautiful. When did you begin entering your bead art in competitive shows?

Coser: I want to say 1994.

Little Thunder: What was one of the first shows that you entered?

Coser: Red Earth.

Little Thunder: Can you describe a little bit what that was like to enter your first competitive show and what you entered?

Coser: Well, I told George that was what I wanted to do, and he supported me, so 17:00that's what I did. As far as entering work competitively, I hadn't really thought about it. I had some beaded moccasin flaps for a pair of Kickapoo moccasins. I didn't have the actual moccasin that they go on, but I entered the flaps, and I got second place.

Little Thunder: They have a little prize money with that, too. What was interesting about that show for you, that first show?

Coser: It was something I hadn't tried.

Little Thunder: As you began entering other shows, who were some of the bead artists whose work stood out for you?

Coser: Well, I went back the next year and entered, and I won first place, I 18:00think two items or something. I'm one of these people where I set a goal for myself, and when I reach that goal, I don't have to do that anymore. Then I can move on to something else. Well, I did that. I accomplished what I set out for myself, so I stopped entering competitions after that.

Little Thunder: You'd won second and first. Were there a lot of beadwork entries at that time?

Coser: I don't remember.

Little Thunder: I'm thinking there weren't as many as now. What do you think is the difference between bead art and bead craft, or is there a difference?

Coser: Well, it just depends on what kind of item you're talking about. I mean, I like to do traditional things, things that people might use in ceremonies, people that want to wear their traditional regalia. I'm not just talking about for powwows. I think I stopped doing arts and crafts a long time ago.

Little Thunder: Because you and George were both active on the powwow scene, you traveled out of state quite a bit. Were there places out of state that you took your bead art to sell?

Coser: No. Never, never, never. We went up to Wisconsin several times, and when 20:00I'm up there, all I want to do is dance.

Little Thunder: Are you watching beadwork patterns and styles up there, too?

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: I think you told me once that the Kickapoo and the Ho-Chunk were closely related.

Coser: We're all Great Lakes people, kind of from that area.

Little Thunder: So what are some of the other rewards of going up north like that?

Coser: The forest, the trees. To me, it's almost like going home.

Little Thunder: One of your early major works that I remember was the otterskin bag that's currently owned by Philbrook. Can you talk about that bag, how you 21:00got the initial idea to do that?

Coser: My great-grandfather was a full-blood Sac and Fox. From what I understand, he was in the Midewiwin Society. He was, like, the tenth level, and that's really important. To me, it was just to honor him.

Little Thunder: Can you explain just a bit about the Midewiwin Society?

Coser: No, all I know is that it died out in the '30s.

Little Thunder: What kinds of research did you do for the bag?

Coser: I looked at other bags, and I saw a design that I wanted to try. I didn't 22:00realize how difficult it was until I started working on it, but I challenged myself, and I got it done. There were some people that saw it, and they thought I did it on a loom. There's no way you can get that design on a loom. Every line of that beadwork, you had to do it row by row, and beads had to match up for that design. And I did it.

Little Thunder: It's an amazing piece of work. When you say that you did some research, was it, like, book research, or did you travel anyplace, too, or go to museums?

Coser: A lot of book research.

Little Thunder: Okay. What about bandolier bags? When did you become interested 23:00in trying one of those?

Coser: For my tribe or for George's?

Little Thunder: I guess your first--let's talk about your first one first.

Coser: Okay. Well, George is Muscogee, and they wear bandolier bags, but theirs are different from the Great Lakes area. I was told somebody was interested in that, and, anyway, I researched designs and figured out how they were made. It's not like there's patterns out there for you to follow or anything, so that's what I did. I figured out what designs I wanted, and I gathered the material. It's expensive. I mean, the wool alone was like seventy-five dollars a yard.

Little Thunder: It's trade cloth we're talking about?

Coser: Yes, yes. And so, I did it. Of course, I didn't know how it was going to turn out because I had never sewn on wool before, but it turned out pretty good.

Little Thunder: It's a beautiful bag, too. Can you talk about a few of the differences (and maybe this will bring up your second bag) between Great Lakes-style and Muscogee-style bags?

Coser: They bead their designs, but they don't fill in the background. Great 25:00Lakes style, you bead your design, but you fill in the background. There's beadwork on the strap on both of them, but the background is not filled in for the Muscogees. It's kind of like the actual pocket that you can put things in, it's a lot bigger. The Muscogee, they have, I guess you'd call them tassels. The Great Lakes, a lot of times theirs are loom beaded. I think you just have to see so you could see the difference.

Little Thunder: It seems to me that you weren't seeing a lot of bandolier bags outside of museums when you started doing them, and you do see, not a whole 26:00bunch, but you see bead workers doing a number of bags these days. Had you seen any in competitions, or had you seen any bead workers working on bags before you did that first one?

Coser: No, not before I did the first one. They're mostly things like you might see in a museum or in books about beadwork or bead art. That's where I got my ideas. I know a long time ago those designs had meaning. While I wouldn't want to go and do somebody else's tribal work, I felt like, "I'm married to George, and so I can do this." That's why I did it.

Little Thunder: When people saw George's bag, there was a positive reaction, wasn't there?

Coser: Oh, he's never had the bag. The reason why I did that was to honor his tribe because I'm married to him. Gilcrease was interested in it, and so he took it over there because he's my agent. He showed them and talked to them and everything, and they bought it.

Little Thunder: Yes, I meant to say when other Muscogee Creeks saw that bag, they responded positively to seeing a bandolier bag that was Muscogee style. When did you make your first pair of moccasins?

Coser: What kind? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Kickapoo moccasins. Go ahead and talk about that.

Coser: It had to be in the early '90s because they use smoked, brain-tanned deer hide, and those are hard to come by. I think I had used some of my prize money to buy some hide, and so made my own pair. But I did, I had a pair that one of my cousins had made. She was a really older lady. She was famous for her work, or for her moccasins anyway, among the tribe. I had a pair of hers, and what I 29:00ended up doing was, since she wasn't around to show me, I took it apart, and I figured it out. That's how I learned to make my own moccasins.

Little Thunder: And then you learned how to make Creek-style moccasins, too?

Coser: It's not much difference. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I remember you gave a workshop, didn't you?

Coser: No.

Little Thunder: Oh, you didn't. Okay.

Coser: But a few years ago, Glenpool schools, one of their Native Creek classes wanted--the teacher asked me if I could teach her kids. I went over there, and I tried. I'm not a teacher. That's all I can say is I'm not a teacher. You know, 30:00either they got it, or they didn't. From some of the ones that I saw, they didn't get it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Of the commissions you've had, what posed the greatest challenge?

Coser: I find it very inhibiting. I don't like having a deadline, and I don't like having to--something very, very specific, it's just--I don't know. It kind of zaps my creativity. I knew a lot of times, "I've got to get this done," and it's just really hard sometimes.

Little Thunder: But I do remember times when you've had both clothing and 31:00beadwork that you were working on simultaneously for somebody. Would you switch off quite a bit to help yourself get through that?

Coser: Yes, breaks the monotony.

Little Thunder: Yes, time-consuming work. What's one of the most exciting places you've traveled, either maybe as part of research for your art or just as part of a cultural kind of exchange?

Coser: We went to Chicago on our way to Wisconsin once, and I got to stop in the [Field] Museum there and see a lot of incredible things. We stopped in Milwaukee and got to go to a museum there and got to go see a lot of incredible things.

Little Thunder: Wow, and a lot of woodland, probably. What was the thing that was most moving for you there?

Coser: In Chicago there was a, they called it dried squash, but it was pumpkin, field pumpkin. I saw that, and it just about made me cry. My dad used to do that, and dried pumpkin is a way to--this is before refrigerators or whatever. When you dry it, that thing can last for years and years. It was really obvious to me that even though it was under glass, there's no telling how old that thing was. Anyway, we're still doing that.

Little Thunder: I think you and George made a trip to Germany. Can you talk 33:00about that a little?

Coser: That was a long flight! (Laughter) Oh, I don't think I'll ever want to do that again. We stayed with a nice couple, and I enjoyed myself around them and everything. It was really kind of eye-opening to me.

Little Thunder: Probably should explain how you ended up going.

Coser: Well, it was to Tulsa's Sister City, Celle, Germany. They had something going on. Originally started out they wanted a dance troupe of fifteen. Well, it eventually just dwindled down to George and I. There was the SARS scare, and just a lot of stuff that was going on. So, anyway, we went, and part of the 34:00thing that we did, we went to a kindergarten. We went to, like, a grade school and talked to the kindergarten kids and did a little exhibition for them, and we got them to dance. Then we went to the grade school and just answered questions. Then for part of Tulsa's thing, I guess every day a different sister city would be showcased, so when it was Tulsa's turn, we were part of the exhibition. He took a hand drum, and he sang, and I danced. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a neat experience. I know beaded collars have been around for a long time, but it seems to me that when you started doing beaded collars, 35:00they were some of the first collars that I saw at art galleries. So, again, I think you're always ahead of the curve with some of these things. Can you talk a little bit about the collars and what you try to do with yours to make them stand out a little bit?

Coser: I incorporated a design in there. That's hard. And I came up with my own way of how--I kind of figured out how that design is going to come out and everything. That's really, really intensive concentration, and I don't think I will ever want to do that design again. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How many did you end up making in all?

Coser: Two or three.

Little Thunder: I know the Indian education program in Glenpool has also called on you for different cultural workshops. One of the ones that you did was to show them how to dry pumpkin, so could you talk about that experience a bit?

Coser: Well, the Creeks used pumpkins. When I told Christie [NASA sponsor-Indian Education]--she called over here one time, and she wanted to know what I was doing. I was telling her, and she was really interested. Then she wanted to know if I could come do that for her class.

Usually what we do when those field pumpkins are ready--it used to be you could 37:00do that in October, and she was calling me maybe a week or two before Thanksgiving. Sometimes it's hard to find those things, or sometimes they're overripe. Anyway, I went over there, and I tried to show her, but--

Little Thunder: And she went and got the pumpkins, I guess?

Coser: Yes. To me, it's one of these things where it's actually a quiet activity. I mean, you can't have a lot of people around there talking. You can't have a lot of distractions and everything because you're working with knives. You have to concentrate on making your pumpkin rings, and they go in a certain 38:00order, and just a whole lot of things. When we did it at the school, oh man, that was something else. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: But nobody lost a finger or anything, it turned out.

Coser: No, but I got several cuts on my hands. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You and George were selected as Native Elders of the Year by AARP--

Coser: Yes, AARP.

Little Thunder: --here in Oklahoma in 2012. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience?

Coser: Well, this friend of mine, when I had talked to her, she told me that she was going to nominate us. I went, "Okay." A little bit later she called, and she was asking about different dates and some of the things that we had done. I tried to fill her in and everything, and then I forgot about it because we had 39:00different things that were going on.

Then he got a call back in September, and he thought that they were joking. He didn't know they were serious. They told us when they wanted us--they had a banquet at the Cowboy Hall of Fame, and they told us when they wanted us to be up there and everything because we had been selected. It never dawned on me that I would be selected because I don't think of myself as an elder because I'm not sixty yet. (Laughter) Plus, I feel like there's probably a lot more people more worthy than me. (Laughs) But anyway, we went, and it was different.

Little Thunder: And wore your traditional clothing.

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: We're going to see some of that and the pumpkin at the end of the interview. You were also extras in at least one movie. Has it been more than one? (Laughter)

Coser: Well, it started out for that. Charlie Soap is making this movie about the Bell [Oklahoma] community, and it's called The Cherokee Word for Water. There's a powwow scene in there. This friend of mine called me up and wanted to know if I had something that her cousin could wear, and I told her, "Sure," because I thought, "Well, now this is another thing that I can add to my list, that my work was in a movie."

That friend of mine had given me a Crow dress because she's Crow and Cherokee, and I kind of changed it around. There were some other things that I wanted to do to it, but it--I guess her cousin was probably about as tall as or taller than me. I sent my stuff down there, and I thought that was it. I was happy that I could say my work was in a movie.

She called back, and she said that she wanted to know if I wanted to be in it, George and I. I told her, "Well, I hadn't thought about it." I told her, I said, "I don't really have anything to wear because your cousin has everything that's mine." I found something, and then we got in, and something happened with the 42:00car. I called up this other friend of mine and asked her, "Hey, do you want to be in a movie?" (Laughter) She said she hadn't thought about it, but she wasn't working at the time, so she said, "Okay." So I told her, and we rode down with her, and so then we went. The thing was, they said it was a closed set and her name wasn't on the list, but we got her in anyway.

They did the powwow scene, and I never realized how long it takes to do stuff like that. It's in October, and down there in Tahlequah, when the sun goes down, it does get cold in the evening. She wore an outfit that I had given her. All I 43:00know is that Charlie was there, and I didn't realize that he still had this beadwork that I had made. Somebody had asked me back in the '80s if I could fix a belt, a harness, a headband--I think that was all. They were specific colors and specific designs, so I came up with something. I don't remember how much I got paid, but I did it all. The guy that plays Charlie in the movie is wearing his outfit.

I was really kind of shocked. I said, "Whoa, it still looks good!" (Laughter) Either that or he really took care of it. During one of the, like, small breaks, I got up, and I went over there. I touched Charlie on the arm, and I told him, I 44:00said, "I made your beadwork." He turned around, and he looked at me, and he was surprised. He said, "Really?" I said, "Yes." I told him who the lady was that had asked me to do all that work and everything. He said, "Well, you know, it was so weird. I would get pieces in the mail every so often." I told him, "Yes, I did most of it."

Little Thunder: They were presents from her.

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: She ordered them for him.

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: Wow! (Laughs)

Coser: In addition to the work that my friend's cousin has on, if she's in there, then my work will be in the movie because it's Charlie's.

Little Thunder: Right. I understand they're going to preview that pretty soon.

Coser: Yes, I think it's November 29.

Little Thunder: At the Circle Cinema?

Coser: No, Jazz Hall of Fame.

Little Thunder: Jazz Hall of Fame. Bead art never seems to command the money it deserves for the time that goes into it. Do you see that situation improving?

Coser: In this economy? (Laughter) No.

Little Thunder: I know both you and George have made important contributions to the Native society. George has been a drug and alcohol counselor for many years, but since he's retired it's tough at times, I imagine. What carries you through?

Coser: The fact that I have tremendous patience. (Laughter) I don't know. I think as you get older you think, "Is this really something that we want, or is it something that we think we need?" I've found that it's pretty easy to live simply.

Little Thunder: I'd like to talk a little about your artistic techniques and process. You've mentioned that after a while you just weren't interested in loom work, so you really didn't do too much of that. On the different bandolier bags, were you using an embossed stitch, or what kind of stitch were you using?

Coser: I guess they call it an appliqué stitch. Some people can use one needle and do fine. I use two.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. It was interesting, you said that when you got your 47:00prize money you went and got supplies. I think that's artists' favorite thing. When you get to go shopping for beads, what do you look for?

Coser: Well, I guess you should be aware that about five years ago I had a stroke. I can't bead the way that I used to. There's some things that I can do, and what's weird is I've found that I can do weaving really good. Anyway, the days of me actually doing appliqué work, I think that's pretty much over. I've tried, and I've tried, and I've tried, and it just doesn't come out the way that I want it to. I'm moving into a different direction now. Now, there's some weaving techniques that I really want to try. It's just that other things keep 48:00coming up and coming up and coming up, so it's kind of hard to get around to that.

Little Thunder: Like sashes? You're talking about weaving, or talking about looms?

Coser: No, there's certain techniques you can do with beads.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. That'll be great. I look forward to seeing what you do. Have you worked with antique beads a lot on earlier works?

Coser: Yes, except that I don't really like them because they're not uniform.

Little Thunder: When you did have commissions that were real specific about designs and colors, how did you put your imprint on those so that you could still know it was your work?

Coser: Well, the way that I see anything that I make, it starts up here, and it 49:00comes out here. (Gestures) The thoughts that go through my mind when I'm working on something are things that--the way that I feel when I'm going through that, it's mine all the way up until the end. When it's finished, it's not mine anymore. If it pleases whoever I made it for, that's good. To me, that's the most important part is the final product. I can be pleased with it, but it's for who it's for. If they're pleased with it, okay, I did my job.

Little Thunder: Do you ever sketch out your designs?

Coser: Once in a while.

Little Thunder: If it's particularly complicated. How about on the bag, the otterskin bag?

Coser: I think there was a picture in a book, and that's where I got the idea 50:00from. I just went by the picture.

Little Thunder: Do you think your colors, your palette, changed much over the years?

Coser: I don't use as many graduated colors anymore. I like to see--it's kind of like a challenge to see what's going to go good together and everything.

Little Thunder: You sort of talked about your creative process a little. I wonder if there's anything you can add to that. Like when you get an idea for a 51:00piece, do you ever write ideas down?

Coser: It wouldn't do any good. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What happens after you get the idea?

Coser: Gather the materials, figure out how big or whatever, and just sit down and do it.

Little Thunder: Do you like working to music or anything, television or--

Coser: I like it when it's quiet.

Little Thunder: What's your creative routine? Do you try to work at night or during the day, or just when you feel like it, or a few hours each day? What's the routine?

Coser: Any time after three o'clock, three o'clock in the afternoon. That's when I'm most--I'm not a morning person.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what's been one of the high points?

Coser: Finishing that Great Lakes bandolier bag.

Little Thunder: Yes. What did you do? Sometimes your adrenaline is still flowing. Did you and George just enjoy the moment for an evening or something? How did you feel when you finished it? Such a long process! (Laughter)

Coser: I told him, I said, "It's like giving birth." Of course, it took a little over a year, but I got it done. It's just that something that big, it kind of took on a life of its own. If I wasn't in the proper mood, it would let me know 53:00because all kinds of mistakes would happen, and I'd get frustrated, so I'd just put it down, and then I'd have to come back to it later.

Little Thunder: You had to do some tearing out sometimes.

Coser: Yes.

Little Thunder: Wow. What's been one of the low points of your career so far?

Coser: That bag hasn't sold--

Little Thunder: The one that we're going to see today.

Coser: --but that's okay.

Little Thunder: And you know what its value is. You know what price you've put on it, and you won't let it go for less than it's worth.

Coser: Well, you can't get it at Wal-Mart, and if everybody could make them, 54:00then why don't I see more of them?

Little Thunder: What would you tell a young Native person who's interested in earning their living with beadwork, bead art?

Coser: Just be prepared. Things won't always sell. You can follow the trends or you can--I don't know. I always felt kind of weird if I try to do some other tribe without their permission. Now, this friend of mine, she's Cherokee, and she's Crow. She asked me to do her beadwork, and so I did. But the thing was I had her permission. I fixed her some Crow moccasins, Crow leggings, just things 55:00that went along with her outfits to wear at powwows.

As far as me actually wanting to do anymore Crow designs after that, I wouldn't do it because that's not who I am. It's just--I don't know. I think what I'm seeing now is a lot of people, they like to follow these trends. I'm not into that. I just want to do what I want to do.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to add or talk about before we look at your work?

Coser: Just that it's--I can't bead like I used to. It's kind of hard when you--as I'm getting older, I guess it's arthritis setting in and my eyesight. 56:00Plus, it's hard to sit for a long time. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: But you're thinking about doing some weaving, bead weaving, so we'll look forward to that. All right, can you talk to us about your clothes here?

Coser: This is an appliqué design skirt. My great-grandmother, she always wore a black shirt with her outfits, and so this is a black shirt. Then we have the silver buttons on there, a bone and glass-bead necklace. This is kind of a combination of Kickapoo and Sac and Fox because that's who I am.

Little Thunder: Beautiful. All right, how about this bandolier bag?

Coser: This was done on red trade wool. Most of them are done on red and black, but this is red. This is all cut beads except for a few sections of white heart glass beads. The designs come from the Great Lakes.

Little Thunder: And there are the tassels.

Coser: Those are loom-woven tassels.

Little Thunder: It's just exquisite, beautiful, flat, straight work. Okay, how about this?

Coser: Okay, this is a man's shirt. This was an old piece of beadwork. I think 58:00this was from some of the things that my great-grandmother had, and I took it apart, and I restored it. This is how the piece would go on the shirt, and this was for ceremonial purposes.

Little Thunder: It's a really beautiful design. Judy, thank you for your time today.

Coser: You're welcome.

------- End of interview -------