Oral history interview with Clancy Gray

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Sunday, October 28, 2012, and I'm interviewing Clancy Gray as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History [Research] Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Clancy's home in Broken Arrow. Clancy, you're known for your jewelry, but you're also a painter and sculptor who has won numerous awards in all media. You're an art teacher at East Central High School, and you've poured your passion into that job, as well. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

Gray: I'm glad to be here.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Gray: I was born in Muskogee, but I don't remember any of that. I remember growing up in Bartlesville on the south end of town. That's basically where I grew up and just loved to hunt and fish.

Little Thunder: Outside of town or in town?

Gray: It was right there at the end--our house was a dead end, so on one side, 1:00it was the houses. On the other side, it was just open fields, Sand Creek, Caney River, Circle Mountain.

Little Thunder: Wonderful growing-up place. What did your folks do for a living?

Gray: My mom was a homemaker, but later on she became a chiropractor's assistant. My dad was a police officer, and then he moved to Phillips Research Lab and worked in the plastics division out west of town of Bartlesville.

Little Thunder: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Gray: I have two brothers, one sister, and all of them have some artistic ability. Probably my youngest brother is known for his work all over the world, really. My older brother was a really talented silversmith, and then my sister 2:00did a lot of watercolor and pottery.

Little Thunder: What was your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Gray: Well, on my dad's side I didn't know them. They passed away before my dad was even grown up. His mother died when he was born, and his dad died when he was about seven. Now, on my mom's side, they had lived in Coweta, Oklahoma, and they owned a small ranch out there. It used to be one of the largest ranches, but when the Great Depression hit, they lost everything. I always remember my grandparents and their home, and I loved going down there.

Little Thunder: What did you like about it?

Gray: Well, I liked working outdoors and helping my grandfather hay and feed and 3:00working with the livestock. I also loved to hunt and fish, so they had plenty of places for me to go, and I'd just go to play. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You have some other extended family members who are artists, too, correct?

Gray: Yes, yes. Probably my sons, both my sons are very artistic. My middle son, Brett, is teaching school with me at East Central. Our kids are real competitive, and they do well all over the state. Then my younger son is teaching in Broken Arrow at Mid High and also coaching cross country and soccer. He's also in the military, so that keeps him pretty occupied as well.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of seeing Native art?

Gray: Probably I would say I knew it was there a long time ago, but I didn't really even get started into art until I don't know how many years ago. I took a sculpture class under Norma Miller, changed majors. All I lacked was my student teaching and about five hours to get my degree in physical education, and changed majors. Then I took two more years of art, just nothing but art classes. (Laughter) I really didn't start getting that interested in the Native American art until I started going to some powwows with my dad. We'd set up our little 5:00displays and stuff like that, and that's basically how I got going.

Little Thunder: Was your dad putting some work in, as well?

Gray: Yes, I taught him how to do silversmithing.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of doing any kind of art?

Gray: It was really in college. I mean, I just thought I was going to be playing baseball forever, but that notion went out the window. Then I found a real love for it, and I had a real passion for it, and I have a real passion for teaching art. So that's basically--

Little Thunder: So you didn't do any sketching when you were young?

Gray: Well, you know, nothing--I was too busy being outside, so the art part of it didn't really hit me until I was in college.

Little Thunder: Were there any art teachers at the elementary school level or 6:00high school level that ever made an impact on you? Did you take any art classes that you remember?

Gray: I took some art classes in high school, and I took some private lessons (I can't even remember his name--Jack Grace) when I was real little.

Little Thunder: Private lessons in--

Gray: In art when I was growing up. Really, my most influential teachers came from [University of] Central Oklahoma. They're the ones that kind of opened the doors. I could name them all.

Little Thunder: What kind of a background did you get--well, first of all, I guess, let's go back to that decision. You were almost ready to graduate, basically, and you're going to do your student teaching, but then you decide you're going to take two more years of art. Do you remember the things you were 7:00thinking when you made that decision?

Gray: No. I wasn't married, I wasn't playing baseball anymore, and so I decided, "Well, why not?" Probably the best idea I had because I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed all of the art.

Little Thunder: Did you get fundamentals in each of the media that you currently work in, or what kind of base did you get?

Gray: Pretty much. We had so many different art teachers at Central State that I learned from them to take all the knowledge I could from all of them, and whether I use it or not ever again, you have that knowledge. That's basically the same thing I tell my kids. Like my kids at East Central, they'll go, "We want to stay in here," and I say, "Well, you need to get every art teacher you 8:00can, soak up all the knowledge you can, and develop your own style."

Little Thunder: So you got a background in painting and sculpture and ceramics, as well?

Gray: Yes, and jewelry.

Little Thunder: And jewelry, silversmithing.

Gray: Just a little bit of everything, and drawing. I really liked the 3D when I was in college. I liked the sculpture, liked the pottery, and really enjoyed those two medias, the jewelry and the sculpture and pottery more than anything else.

Little Thunder: When did you sell your first piece of art?

Gray: I did a buffalo in class, and I was really proud of it. During the firing, it had a big split in the side. I remember going home to Bartlesville, and 9:00there's a little shop there, and they asked if they could set it in there. This was, gosh darn, forty years ago. A person (I think they were from California) bought my first piece.

Little Thunder: Was it in a show, per se?

Gray: No, it wasn't a show. It was just on display.

Little Thunder: Just on display, wow. This was at college?

Gray: Yes, but I wasn't at college at the time. I was home for the summer, and then they had just put the display up. Also, the Bartlesville Indian Women's Club, they helped me out with supplies and scholarship money, as well as all the other things. They were a real part of helping me get supplies.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. What was your first art award?

Gray: I'd have to say it was in jewelry.

Little Thunder: Do you remember the show?

Gray: No, don't remember the show, don't remember, but I remember that I was really into jewelry at the time. I know I got an award in jewelry, but I couldn't even tell you the piece.

Little Thunder: Were you conscious of admiring some other jewelers or any particular styles of jewelry that sort of--

Gray: Well, I really liked the Navajo style because what you do, you take the stone and build your design around the stone. I enjoyed that more than, let's say, the Zuni, where they put all the little stones. I also enjoyed--oh gosh, my 11:00brain cells are fried--where they do their jewelry but it's more like a picture.

Little Thunder: Okay. So there was never a point at which you thought you might want to do art commercially because you had this love. You knew you wanted to be a teacher, as well, when you graduated.

Gray: Correct. I didn't want to go into the commercial end of it. I truly enjoyed the fine arts.

Little Thunder: Where did you get your first teaching job?

Gray: Here in Tulsa at McLain High School, and I was there for seventeen years, I think. My students won numerous awards throughout the state and set up lots of 12:00exhibitions. My kids, at that time, were going to East Central High School, and I just wanted to move over there and be closer to them.

Little Thunder: How did you balance your teaching, your artwork in those early years?

Gray: It was a lot easier. I had a lot more energy. (Laughter) I mean, you could pull an all-nighter and work all night and be ready to go, and then, like, now, boy, ten o'clock comes, and that's it. (Laughter) One thing I will say, (I call it a zone) when an artist gets in a zone, you don't want--because it doesn't happen that often, but when it hits there, take full advantage of it, and you can just go.

Little Thunder: How many shows were you going to in that early period when you first--

Gray: About the same number as I am now because my high school took up so much of my time. My high school shows, we enter anywhere from nine to fifteen art competitions and exhibitions a year, plus my shows. I figure when I retire from teaching I will travel further out, but as of right now I still enjoy teaching, so I stay closer to home.

Little Thunder: I remember first seeing your work in terms of jewelry, first seeing jewelry. Were you from the beginning always painting and sculpting, as well, or did that become more important as you got started?

Gray: Well, no, I always enjoyed sculpture, number one. I enjoyed the sculpture more than any other media. Painting, what I would wind up doing is maybe 14:00painting one or two pictures a year, and they'd always sell. I just wasn't that much into painting until about the last, I don't know, ten years or so, twelve years, and I said, "Well, this is really a lot of fun." The style that I developed--I like JoAnne Bird's work, and I also like Earl Biss' work. I was going, "What? I can do that!" but have my own style. So, I'd say those two people influenced me on--the type of my artwork was due to them.

Little Thunder: Once you taught your dad how to do some jewelry making and you two set up at that one show, did you continue to show together a little bit?

Gray: Oh, yes.

Little Thunder: What was that like?

Gray: I also taught my little brother to do silversmithing.

Little Thunder: Is this Greg?

Gray: Greg.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Gray: He became quite an accomplished silversmith, as well.

Little Thunder: What was that like, doing shows with your dad?

Gray: Well, it was really funny because whenever we'd go to a show, we'd be miles apart and we couldn't wait to go to the show to show the other person what we had done. (Laughter) It was almost the same stuff, I mean, same ideas, so that was kind of unusual.

Little Thunder: That's very unusual, thinking along parallel lines. What about stones? What kinds of stones were you working with early on?

Gray: When I first started, I usually used the mussel shell, and I used a lot of onyx, and I used a lot of turquoise.

Little Thunder: What's the best piece of business advice that you got from another artist or gallery owner at the time?

Gray: You know, I don't know. Like I said, that's many years ago. I would say that when I go to these shows and stuff, my dad always told me, he said, "Clance, always enjoy the show and the people and the surroundings. You're not going to make a hundred bucks every time you go to a show, but enjoy it. When you have that kind of attitude, even if you don't sell anything, you come away a winner." So I've always kind of kept that philosophy.

Little Thunder: That's a great one. How would you describe the changes in the 17:00Indian art scene from the '70s to the '80s?

Gray: I think going from the '70s to the '80s, there was such a surge of appreciation of the Native American culture, Native American art, and the Native American artists who produced the work benefitted from that because they got to expose their culture and their knowledge and their sense of being.

Little Thunder: Were you involved with a couple of galleries here in state?

Gray: You know what, going back to teaching, I just didn't have time. That's the reason why I went to shows because I just didn't have time. If I did this full-time, I could probably make more money than I do teaching, except then it 18:00becomes a job and then something I have to do. I keep it as something that is my release, and I enjoy it, and I have fun doing it.

Little Thunder: Do you remember how things kind of changed from the '80s to the '90s?

Gray: I think I was more involved, myself, with learning and watching other artists than I was in the '70s and '80s. From the '80s and '90s, I became more aware of all the different types of Native American artwork, and I tried to gear myself to the Southwest style. When I'm teaching, I've got to teach everything.

Little Thunder: Right. You were looking, also, for example, at sculpture. You 19:00were kind of absorbing and talking with other sculptors.

Gray: Yes, I try to just absorb everything you can. When I take my kids to art shows, my high school kids, I tell them, "Go talk to the artists. Ask them how they did it." I say, "Most of them are going to be really excited that you're talking to them. Then look at the styles. Look at the different techniques that they use and then come back and try it out." Usually when I go to a show or even with my kids in the classroom, I teach them a lesson or something, and I see one of them do something a little different. I'll go, "Whoa, this is neat!" and I'll go back and do it. (Laughter) Whenever you think you know it all, that's when you might as well check it in. I mean, it's an ongoing learning process.

Little Thunder: In 1990 the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, requiring artists to show proof of Indian identity or have a letter from the tribe certifying them as an artist who could represent that tribe. Do you remember how that impacted individuals in galleries? I guess you weren't too involved with the gallery scene, but shows--

Gray: Well, I know that there are a lot of artists out there that could not prove that they were Native American, but they looked Native American and their work was unbelievable, great. So I think, therefore, they took a hit on that.

The way I look at it, competing with other artists, it's when you can go out and compete with those guys and you know you're at their caliber. It doesn't make 21:00any difference who goes, you know? That's my own personal opinion. I'm real competitive that way. I think it hurt, but in a way it didn't hurt because then that way people who bought the Native American artwork could actually say, "This is authentic Native American work."

I know they have a lot of Native American artisans now, and I'm glad they got that in there so some of them can show. Even cowboy artists have--you kind of flip-flopped back and forth. Like I said, it didn't affect me that much, but I know a lot of artists that it did affect.

Little Thunder: Art is at least a two-person business a lot of times. I remember 22:00seeing, for example, I think, your older son at some of the shows, and maybe all of your children over the years have helped out. Can you talk about the role your family plays in your work?

Gray: As far as my artwork?

Little Thunder: Or maybe at shows. Just any aspect of the art business.

Gray: Well, I tell my two boys--they're both very talented, and they both won numerous awards throughout their high school career. Brett, he has branched off, and he is doing commissioned work. He's very talented. Dax, I think Dax can do the work, but that's not what he's into right now. When it's time for them to, "I want to get back in this," they will. I just don't push them, like, "You need to do this, and you need to do that." God's going to tell you when it's time, so 23:00that's the way I look at it.

Little Thunder: Are commissions an important part of your work?

Gray: Commissions? You know what? I really don't enjoy the commission work as much as I do when I just go out in my garage and have fun. When I do commission work, that means I sit there and I just got to do it. It's not as challenging, not as much fun, but I do it because it brings in the extra money.

A good example, a lady ordered a bracelet from me. It took me a year to get it done. After I did it, I liked it, so I went and did another bracelet in two days. So there you go! (Laughter) I like to do things on my own. Commission work is fine, but I really enjoy just being able to sit there and create and do the 24:00things that I want to do. I've been really fortunate and really blessed that people buy my artwork.

Little Thunder: Have you competed for any kind of public artwork? I know generally your sculptures are not large-scale pieces, usually, but have you...

Gray: No, because I'm too busy at school. I mean, school just takes up an unbelievable amount of time. Especially in the busy part of our year, I'm usually at school way before school until way after dark. We just keep after it.

Little Thunder: You've talked about some of the things you try to share with your students. What are some other things that you really want them to get from your art classes?

Gray: A really better understanding of what art's all about. Art's everywhere. 25:00It's on cans; it's on billboards. It's in the home; it's the architect. It's just not a canvas or a piece of clay. Art is everywhere, and if the kids can grasp that and take hold, then they're that much better for it.

Little Thunder: Teaching at McLain and also at East Central, to a degree, sometimes you've worked quite a bit with minority children and lower-income children. What have been some of the rewards and challenges of that?

Gray: Probably my best story: I had a mother come up to me and say, "I don't know if you remember me, but my daughter went to school, and she took a class 26:00under you." I said, "I remember." She said, "I want you to know that she is going to graduate from college this spring. She's going to get married. Since then, I've gone back, got my GED. I'm now in college and taking classes. Her brothers never finished high school, have gone back, and got their GED, and they are taking tech classes. All her cousins are seeing the benefits of what education can do for you and are going back to school."

Now, that, to me, wraps it up. When you know--I don't know how to put it. You never know how you're going to influence someone down the road, so I try to live 27:00every day to the fullest. I try to be positive all the time. It's kind of hard sometimes with that many kids in the classroom, but the whole idea is, hopefully, you'll make a positive impact on their life.

Little Thunder: That's a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing that. Some of the tribes are really working harder these days to get behind their artists, whether it's in terms of scheduling shows or trying to give them some more visibility or buying pieces from their artists. Any thoughts on that situation?

Gray: I think that it's really a great idea. I think that the more exposure that you can give your tribe and your ideas and your art talent and stuff like that, 28:00and they help promote you, that's a no-loss situation. It's going to benefit both you and the tribe. I know a lot of the shows that I go to, there are so many different tribes and so many really talented artists that it really makes it fun.

Little Thunder: Friendships are a big part of it, aren't they, friendships that you develop with other artists?

Gray: Just like I told you before, when my dad said, "Enjoy the people. Enjoy the situation, and even if you don't sell, you learn from that." I have grown to where I have several really good friends that are in the Native American art field.

Little Thunder: Has that happened a bit with collectors, too, repeat collectors 29:00that you--

Gray: I think on repeat collectors, if you're fortunate to have people who really love your work, it's going to sell itself. They're going to come back and buy more, or they're going to tell their friends. It's like that type of situation.

Little Thunder: I'd like to talk just a little bit more now about your techniques and philosophies, starting with your jewelry. You mentioned some of the stones you worked with initially, and I think one of them was shell, right?

Gray: Yes.

Little Thunder: There are some challenges to that, aren't there?

Gray: Well, whenever you're cutting your own shell and stuff, it's real toxic. What you want to do is use a lot of ventilation, a lot of water. I have made myself kind of sick a few times where I didn't have it set up just right, but yes.

Little Thunder: What stones now are you using mostly? It's still mostly silver that you're working with?

Gray: Right. I usually just use the sterling silver. I use lots of different types of turquoise. I think the turquoise is the eyes in the beholder, so I try to get real picky with my turquoise. Then a lot of times I will sit there and think a long time before I decide what to do with it. Same way with my paintings. I might paint seven or eight backgrounds, and I might sit on them for six, eight months before it comes to me what I want to do with it. Now, the sculptures, that's a little different. I have an idea in my head, pretty much what I want to do, but then the research goes in to make sure everything is in the right perspective, and I'm going to reach my goal that way.

Little Thunder: Going back to your jewelry, what kinds of design qualities do you want it to evoke? What are you thinking about when you come up with those initial designs?

Gray: Well, like I said, I take the stone, and then I build the design around the stone. I want the stone to be the main attraction, and I want the other silver work to enhance it, so they have to work together. You're not going to have one without the other, so therefore they kind of build on each other. The silver works more as an accent to the stone, and I guess that's the reason why I'm particular on the stones.

Little Thunder: Yes, and for me, like your jewelry, what I love about it is it's 32:00not quiet jewelry. You know what I mean? It's not super flashy, either. When you put it on, it wears well. It always hangs right.

Gray: Well, thank you. I just--I don't know. I always tell people who look at artwork and if they're interested in buying or whatever, I say, "Does it talk to you?" If it's talking to you, then you know that's something you should look into. I mean, paintings, sculptures, jewelry, you can say, "Oh, that's real pretty," but if it really talks to you, you ought to think about it.

That's how I tell a lot of people when they're looking at artwork. Just don't buy it because it's there or an investment thing because it'll probably sit in a box. It'll never be worn or sit in a closet. What you want to do is you really 33:00like the piece, it really talks to you, really love it, then that's what makes you happy. That's what makes me happy, when my art pieces talk to people.

Little Thunder: When you buy your stones, is there a particular--do you have some favorite stores? Do you order online?

Gray: I had a really good friend, his name was Will Doty. He passed away last spring. I think over twenty-five years, I bought lots of stones from him, lots, from sugilite to azurite to malachite to turquoise, agates.

Little Thunder: Was he located here in Oklahoma?

Gray: Yes, he was. His son is a dealer in stones, but I don't know where he's stationed. I remember going to Will's house and spent hours looking at stones. Then also, out west, my brother, when he was in silversmithing, he would say, 34:00"Well, found some good stones." "Okay." (Laughter) We'd buy them and split them up and go from there.

Little Thunder: Talking about your paintings a little bit, you have developed--as you say, you've been influenced by some of these Native impressionistic styles, and you like to use a palette knife, I guess, quite a bit?

Gray: Palette knife. I like to show a lot of movement, lots of colors, and sometimes you really can't even tell what it is. If everything is moving right, then I've accomplished my goal.

Little Thunder: It's almost like a kind of action painting, isn't it, for you, if you're really working that palette knife?

Gray: It just starts flowing.

Little Thunder: Quickly?

Gray: Yes, I mean, we talked about the zone earlier. Whenever I hit this zone, you don't want to put it down. It just kind of flows.

Little Thunder: And most of your paintings are on canvas. Is that right?

Gray: I do watercolor, as well. I do some pencil, but I enjoy the--well, I don't know. I just haven't done that many watercolors, but I enjoy the watercolors as well as I do the canvas paintings.

Little Thunder: In terms of sketching, do you do any preliminary sketching for your jewelry or your painting?

Gray: It depends on the subject matter, like, let's say on my sculptures. Gosh! Even as many buffalos as I've done or horny toads or anything that I've done, I have pictures and books and more pictures and books and bone structures. I've 36:00got it all. The best example is to go out and find something that's real and go from there.

Little Thunder: In terms of your sculpture, I think texture seems to be really important to you there. You mainly work in bronzes. Is that right?

Gray: Yes, clay and bronze.

Little Thunder: Clay and bronze.

Gray: Yes. On the texture that I use, really, again, it depends on the piece, itself. When I teach my kids at school, I just tell them I don't want something that's real stoic. I want to show movement. I want to be able to tell a story without you telling me what the title is, and then therefore, you've 37:00accomplished your goal. Whether the viewer sees it or not, you've accomplished your goal. That's what I try to do with mine. I try to tell a story, and there usually is a story behind each piece.

Little Thunder: So, with the clay, are you saying some of the sculpture is fired ceramic?

Gray: Yes, it's fired, and then I usually airbrush it. I enjoy the raku, and I enjoy stoneware. There's so many things I'd like to do, but there's just not enough time.

Little Thunder: Have you explored masks at all with the ceramic?

Gray: Not personally, but that's infiltrated in my curriculum for my clay kids.

Little Thunder: Interesting. What was the most challenging piece of sculpture that you did?

Gray: Well, the most challenging piece that I ever did, it was a hand coming up, and it had a woman coming up through the hand. It had the buffalo robe and had the shield. I was just about ready to have it all done, and it fell and broke. I mean, I'd already hauled it out and everything, and I just said, "It wasn't meant to be. I'm not even going to attempt it again until I think I'm ready." That was probably my most challenging piece, but I lost it. I still remember it, so it's still back in my head.

Little Thunder: Right. Another try. What size do you typically work in when you're working in sculpture, or is there a--

Gray: No particular. I don't want it real big because there's not that many 39:00people that can have big pieces of sculpture in their home. I try to make more vertical than horizontal because more people have vertical space in their home. Subconsciously I think of it like that, but most of my pieces are horizontal.

Little Thunder: Do you have a foundry here in-state?

Gray: I take my artwork to the Bronze Horse in Pawhuska.

Little Thunder: Oh, nice.

Gray: I think that there's two artists involved: the person who creates it and the person who duplicates it. I have found that they have done my pieces justice, and I just keep going back there.

Little Thunder: How long have they been around?

Gray: Oh, way before I even started artwork.

Little Thunder: We've talked about the fact that your brothers are also gifted artists, and I think Shan is the one that's--

Gray: He's doing The American.

Little Thunder: Right. Have you guys ever sort of swapped ideas or thought about collaborating on a piece?

Gray: I don't think so much collaborating as I think that we--I probably ask more questions for Shan to help me out than he does me, but he has asked me questions.

Little Thunder: And he's working in a way bigger scale.

Gray: Right, he's done, like, three Miss Americas at Oklahoma City University, Billy Vessels, Maverick [James Garner], Warren Spahn, Shannon Miller, Dr. Suji Ameng. He has done some unbelievable sculptures.

Little Thunder: When you're doing a bronze, the foundry process is kind of expensive. Do you do any pre-selling?

Gray: I think, once again, it just depends on the piece. Like, if I could sell my horny toad, then that would give me enough to make a bronze piece out of it. I plan to do another horny toad, but on a smaller version. I have found several horny toads with different poses that are actually almost vertical, and that's what my first bronze of a horny toad will be. It's not going to be flat on the ground like my clay pieces, but it will be actually protruding up, looking up.

Little Thunder: So these are, like, photographs that you've seen?

Gray: Yes, anytime I look in the National Geographic or any magazines and I see pictures that like of certain animals. Most of my wildlife is from North America, usually North American wildlife. I go with it like that.

Little Thunder: And I think horned toads are just--especially now when they're sort of disappearing, you don't find them as readily as you used to.

Gray: No, it's been a long time since I've seen a horny toad out in the wild. I think the last time I saw one, my kids were still in school and I was coming home from McLain High School. Saw one run out across the highway by the airport, stopped my vehicle, waited for the cars to pass, went out and caught it. I brought it home so they could see it because they've never seen one. Then we went out to Coweta, out at my aunt's place, and found a red-ant hill and turned 43:00it loose there. I figured it had a better shot there than the airport.

Little Thunder: Right, right. What is your creative process from the time that you get an idea? Just kind of walk us through it.

Gray: Well, like I said, most the time I want to definitely tell a story without looking at the title. I want to show movement. I take those in consideration when I start forming my piece. Like I said, I don't want it to be standing still. Even if it's laying down and stuff, I can still show movement.

Little Thunder: How can you show movement if it's just laying down?

Gray: Oh, let's say I'm wanting to do a sculpture of a baby buffalo. Instead of having both legs underneath him and the ones underneath him in the back, I can have him kind of sprawled out and his head laying down, kind of across one arm, and there's your movement.

Little Thunder: In terms of patinas, what are some of your favorites?

Gray: I don't really know the name of them, but John and Matt [Free] help me. I tell them what I want, and they usually get the patinas--

Little Thunder: In Pawhuska.

Gray: --at the Bronze Horse. They usually get the patinas like I like. If I tell them I want more red in it, they get more red. If I want more copper in it, they get more copper. It's a whole neat process the way that they do it.

Little Thunder: How do you handle your signature, because sometimes that's kind of an art decision in itself.Gray: It's pretty simple.

Little Thunder: Okay.

Gray: The more simple, the better. It's just four little letters, and that's it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How important is humor in your work?

Gray: I think that--well, just take example of my buffalo that's sitting there. He's so fat, and he's trying to turn around and scratch his head. I call it Too Fat to Scratch. So it plays a part, but everything's got to fall into place for it to work.

Little Thunder: Do your titles come pretty readily most of the time after the piece is finished?

Gray: A lot of times they come before I even start the piece. A lot of times I'm done with the piece, and then it comes to me, what I'm trying to present. That's 46:00with the paintings, as well.

Little Thunder: Do you keep track of your ideas in a notebook at all?

Gray: Nope. Like I said, I do this because I enjoy it. I guess when I quit teaching, it'll have to be where I have to keep more of a notebook, but no, I don't.

Little Thunder: What is your creative routine? Do you try to get a certain amount of hours in per day or on the weekends?

Gray: As far as my jewelry work, I might cut stones, twenty, thirty stones, and then I'll sit on them. When it hits me, then I'll work. Artwork, my paintings, same thing. I might paint the backgrounds and then sit on those for a long time 47:00before I feel like, "Yes, that's what I want to do." Sculptures, a lot of times I know that I worked on an eye for two or three hours and then just said [scoffs], then take it off and start over. Whenever I hit that zone, I want to take advantage of it.

Little Thunder: Right. So what's been one of the most important art awards you've won up to this point?

Gray: That's a tough question because I think any time that you win an art award, whether it's a big show, little show, it's a precious moment because you 48:00have shown what you're capable, your ideas, like I say, whether it's a big show or little show. If people recognize your artwork as being good, then so be it.

Little Thunder: Looking back on your career so far, what has been kind of a fork-in-the-road moment when you might've taken one path but you decided to go this other way?

Gray: Well, probably the best example would've been when I was playing baseball. I thought I was going to be a baseball player, and I chose art instead. Best thing I ever did.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points of your career?

Gray: I get a lot of those. I mean, anytime I go to a show, anybody that sees my 49:00work and goes, "Wow, look at this!" I mean, some stand out a little bit more than others. Like an example, I was telling a lady about The Last Emperor. It's my buffalo that's going down, and I told her that it got shot going down, but it still looks pretty majestic as it's going down. I turned around, and she had tears coming out of her eyes. Anytime, anything like that, any people who take the time to want to know about the artist, know about their work and, "What made you do this?" It's always fun.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Gray: I haven't had any real low points. Like I said, I enjoy it. I could live and breathe and eat it every day. I do not really have a low point.

Little Thunder: Speaking of your buffalo, I'm just wondering if you've been to--do you go to the Tallgrass Preserve sometimes and take pictures, Tallgrass Prairie Preserve?Gray: No, I have not been able to go yet. I need to go, but, like I said, teaching and then go to the shows and then--there's just not enough hours in the day. You'd think I'd take off. In fact, when I quit coaching, I said, "Gosh, this is going to be great. I'm going to get to go to more shows, do more things." I'm more busy now than I was when I was coaching. I wonder how I even accomplished what I did when I did, but I really enjoy the kids at school and whenever they're working, producing, and enjoying it and winning awards. 51:00It's pretty exciting.

Little Thunder: What's either a personal project or a project you've embarked on with your students that you're particularly excited about right now?

Gray: Well, in my advanced AP class we started doing more sketching. Besides them working on their breadth and concentration, we're doing more sketching, and I've found I think that kind of energizes their base. They should've been doing the sketching all along, but this way it's required. Now they have to do it, and a lot of them just do it on their own, anyway.

A lot of my kids work probably on four and five projects at a time, which is really great. That way, there's no slack time. Then on my form design class, 52:00which is my sculpture class, which is my favorite class, (Laughter) they're trying to finish up their big projects for the fall now. By the middle of next month, they should be pretty well done and getting ready to go to shows and compete.

Of course, my Art I kids, they become a real challenge. They're at this level, and I want them at this level. (Gestures) I want them up here, to be able to compete with the Booker Ts and the Jenks and Edmond Norths [High Schools] and Norman High School. I want them to be able to compete with the Holland Halls and Skiatook and all these schools that are really up and coming in the fine arts.

Little Thunder: Did you introduce any art programming that they haven't had 53:00previously at Central?

Gray: East Central?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Gray: We're probably--I'm going to say we're one of the very few high schools that does raku firings. We're the only high school I know of that get to do pewter castings. We're one of a handful of schools that get to do jewelry. I'm hoping within the next year or two before I retire that we implement stone cutting. That would be my big project is stone cutting and have the facilities and the tools and all that to pursue it.

Little Thunder: You've got some lucky students. Is there anything we've forgotten or that you'd like to add before we look at your artwork?

Gray: I think we've pretty well covered it.

Little Thunder: All right. Well, we're going to get ready to look at some pieces. We're looking at one of your buffalos.

Gray: This is called Too Fat to Scratch, and we talked about the humor part of it before. How I got this idea, when I was a young boy on my grandfather's farm, they had this big ol' Black Angus bull in the barn. I was watching him. He was sitting there trying to scratch his head behind his ear, and he couldn't reach it. (Laughter) So I said I would always love to do a piece like that.

Little Thunder: That is great. How many in this series?

Gray: The series was nine and with the artist's proof. I'm down to--this is number seven. I have three left. The artist's proof goes to my kids.

Little Thunder: Oh, that's really neat. All right. We're looking at a couple pieces of your jewelry now.

Gray: I enjoy the turtle. In our culture, the turtle is a sign of good luck, so I happened to call this piece Good Luck. It's more surrealistic. It's not a real sculpture of a turtle, but you can tell it's a turtle. Then my bolo here, I call it Tranquility, and it just has a soothing effect. I feel like it does. It gives off that kind of a vibe.

Little Thunder: What are the different stones or different turquoise from different places? I know it's a turquoise.

Gray: The one on the right is Tranquility. It's China Mountain Turquoise. The one on--well, in fact, both of them are China Mountain Turquoise. What happened was when they tried to break into the market, the deal was, when they broke into 56:00the market they were selling their good stones for $350 a pound. The good stuff from like the Kingman Mine, the Sleeping Beauty Mine, Fox Mine, all these, they were selling theirs for $800 to $1,000 a pound. I bought all I could because I knew it was good stuff.

Little Thunder: Right, right. It's just gorgeous, the colors. You give titles to your jewelry, as well, huh?

Gray: Only the big pieces.

Little Thunder: Okay, okay.

Gray: I couldn't do it to all mine.

Little Thunder: Right. (Laughs) You were going to tell us about your painting, here.

Gray: This particular painting, I wanted to depict that as early morning mist. The war ponies, they're all excited because they know they're going to go on a hunt, and they're really pumped up. That's what I wanted to show on this piece.

Little Thunder: You can see the hill in the background and the texture, the relief on the paint. That's really nice. Okay, this one's called The Three Wise Men.

Gray: Yes. This painting is called The Three Wise Men, and basically they're the tribe's elders, and they have all the wisdom. That's who they go to when they have problems and stuff like that.

Little Thunder: Lots of nice movement and, again, lots of texture. That's great. Well, I thank you very much for your time today, Clancy.

Gray: Well, thank you.

------- End of interview -------