Oral history interview with Crystal Hanna

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Tuesday, October 23, 2012, and I'm interviewing Crystal Hanna as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Crystal's home right now, right between Sapulpa and Tulsa. Crystal, you're a Cherokee potter who apprenticed with Anna Mitchell, and you've gone on to win awards at all the major art shows. One trademark of your work is its elaborate graphic quality, and you're now exploring some ceramic dolls with your daughter. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Hanna: You're welcome. I'm glad you're here.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Hanna: I was born in Claremore Indian Hospital, and we actually lived in Tulsa most of our growing-up years. We spent a lot of time in Salina, where my mother's folks were from. All my full-blood relatives were there, and we swam in 1:00the creek and ate crawdads and did all that good Indian stuff. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What did you folks do for a living?

Hanna: Before my brother and sister were born--when I was six my sister was born, but before that my dad was a fisherman, and he literally fished the creek banks and rivers and lakes in Oklahoma for catfish. That's how he made a living for me and my mom. We caught catfish. He cleaned them and went to the parks or went to little towns and sold his catfish, and he called himself Nature Boy. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you help at all with that?

Hanna: I don't know that I helped a lot, but I can tell you that it was a childhood experience that most kids would never have an opportunity to have. I wouldn't trade it for the world because we really didn't even live in a home 2:00until I was six. We lived on creek banks. We had tents. I remember one time we had a bus, and Mom cooked out on an open campfire. It was just incredible. I didn't know it at the time, but it really was. (Laughter) Then when I turned six and my sister was born, he had to settle down. We had to move into a house. His dad had been a roofing contractor, hot-tar roofing, and that's what he knew. He started his own business when I was six, and that's what he did until he passed away in the mid-'80s.

Little Thunder: How about your mom?

Hanna: Mom was full-blood Cherokee. She never worked outside the home. She spent her time raising us kids. She did a pretty good job, for the most part anyway! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So were you speaking Cherokee growing up?

Hanna: When I was young, actually before my sister was born, because we spent so 3:00much time at my grandmother's house in Salina, and that's all they spoke was Cherokee in the home. So, yes, I was picking it up, and I learned it. Because Cherokee was my mother's first language and it was really hard for her when she started first grade, she said the kids made fun of her, so she said no. They would teach us little words, but for the most part, she says, "My kids are going to speak English because they're not going to go through what I did." I was caught in that generation where it just wasn't the thing that my mother thought we should do. Now we know better, and if she were here now, I know she'd want me to be learning Cherokee, which we do a little bit on our own as much as we can.

Little Thunder: How about your relationship with your grandparents on either side?

Hanna: On my mother's side because we spent so much time with my Grandma and my Grandpa Chuckluck--my grandfather was Bridge Chuckluck, and my grandmother was Annie Chuckluck. Actually, my grandmother was a translator. I'm not sure exactly when, but probably before I was born because my mom was the oldest of six living kids. But I know that there was a time that she was a translator in Salina. I don't really know for what organization, but she did work as a translator at some point in time. My grandpa, he was just always there. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What was your earliest memory of seeing art?

Hanna: Earliest memory. Well, probably when I saw my own dad. He liked to draw 5:00things that he saw. He liked to draw horses and things like that. We always doodled, but as far as going to art shows or going to museums, I really wasn't raised like that. My mom wasn't raised like that, and so it was--art to us was what we saw in Nature and what we loved. What we saw, that was our art.

Little Thunder: So I'm wondering if it was easy for you to come by pencils and paper, given that--

Hanna: Yes because I went to a public school on the east side of Tulsa, Mingo School. I went there from first grade through eighth grade. It was actually a pretty wealthy public school because it was right there by McDonnell Douglas and American Airlines, and so we had a lot of opportunity there maybe that I might 6:00not have had in some other school district. But you know, we always had everything. We had art. I did take art classes. I think you could start in fifth grade, so that was kind of fun.

Little Thunder: Did you have any other family members who were interested in art, or extended family?

Hanna: No, none.

Little Thunder: So what is your earliest memory of making art or doing art?

Hanna: I'm sure as a child we made our mud pies and we decorated them, but nothing, like, formal. We never had any art contests or anything like that. Even in boarding school, we weren't exposed to any art or any of the traditional arts like beadwork. We didn't really get any of that. Now I think they are going a little more toward teaching the kids, even at a younger age, more of what's 7:00artistic and what isn't.

Little Thunder: How would you describe the background that you got in primary school? Were you interested? Was the experience with art--did it impact you?

Hanna: Not really because, to me, it was all about sports and athletics and basketball. I took art for a couple of semesters in grade school, but for the most part not any through high school or the little bit of college that I had. Nope, no art.

Little Thunder: And you went to college where?

Hanna: Went to Northeastern. Back then it was Northeastern State College. Went there a year and a summer. My husband was graduating, got married, and started having a family.

Little Thunder: So you were raising the kids. Were you working part-time when they were young, too?

Hanna: Worked full-time from the very beginning. Took a little bit of time with both of my children when they were born, but for the most part I've worked full-time for forty years, a long time! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And you're also out in the country from the beginning?

Hanna: Oh, yes. We've always lived out.

Little Thunder: So you're raising horses and--

Hanna: I don't think I could live in town, for sure. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What about the first time that you saw Indian art, Native art?

Hanna: Really, the first time I was interested or thought I might be interested was in 1998. As I mentioned to you earlier, I was sitting in our bank waiting to 9:00speak to a loan officer, so I could probably borrow some money for my husband's horse or something. (Laughter) There was a brochure. It was about Red Earth, and Anna Mitchell had been named the Honored One for Red Earth that year. I read the article, and she so intrigued me. She really reminded me of my mother. She was full-blood Cherokee. Her look even reminded me a little bit of Mom. That's when I called Red Earth, and I said, "I'm not sure why, I've never done this before, but I really would just like to meet this lady. She sounds so incredible!" That's when they said, "Well, we really can't give you her number, but we'll call her, and if she wants to, then she can call you." And she did. She called me the next day. I was at work, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, this lady has called me, and she said I can come to her house and visit!" I did that very next weekend.

I took my husband's aunt, went up there, and we went a Sunday after she got out of church. We visited all day, and she showed me her pottery, how she did it. She said, "You know, Crystal, I think that you might make a good apprentice." I kind of looked at her, and I go, "Really?" Then I thought about it a moment, and I really got chill bumps. It was like, "Anna, I think I'm supposed to be doing this." I've never really felt that way about anything, but I was at an age--my kids were grown, both my kids were out of college, and I was like, "Okay, now I'm looking for something to do." This was in October when I met her, of 1998, and she says, "Well, I start working on my pottery about the first of March." She says, "I'll call, you and you can come up." She says, "Now, you can do an 11:00apprenticeship, but I have to tell you now, I charge five hundred dollars for this, but you can pay me out however you want. It doesn't make me any difference because I can see that you're really hungry to learn more about this.

"But before you start making any pottery with me, here is a list of books. I want you to go to the library, look on the Internet, buy books, whatever you need to do. I want you to do as much research as you can about the Southeastern Mississippian culture before we ever make our first coil." It was the best advice she ever gave me. I went crazy! From October to March, that's all I did. I was obsessed with it! (Laughter) We started, and we had probably like a three-month apprenticeship where I went on the weekends.

Little Thunder: Every weekend?

Hanna: Every weekend, and we did everything from scratch. It was an incredible experience.

Little Thunder: Take us through that a bit. You would go out, and would you dig your clay each time?

Hanna: Because I would go on a Saturday, I'd go about ten o'clock, get there about ten o'clock in the morning on a Saturday, and we went through each step. One of the steps, of course, is processing the clay. Well, Anna had a really great sense of humor. She had a huge sandstone slab in her backyard that had a big dish in it. She handed me this, like, it felt like a five-pound rock, little round rock, and she says, "Now, here's the clay that I already have settled for you."

It's all hard, and it looks like rock, and she wanted me to grind and grind and grind. Now, you know, it's still pretty warm, like in the end of March. I did 13:00this for a couple of hours, and the sweat's like pouring off of me. My back's hurting, my arm's hurting, and she says, "Well, I just want you to know how our ancestors did it and how they felt whenever they were doing all this work, but there is a better way to do this!" (Laughter)

Then she showed me how you could actually put the dry clay in a bucket, let it soak, and then put it through a strainer and let the water go off of it. She was great.

Little Thunder: She wanted you to have that experience.

Hanna: She did. I'm sure she was laughing behind me all the while just to see how long I'd stick it out. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And she commented many times that it was all about the culture, too, learning the culture.

Hanna: Absolutely.

Little Thunder: What things did you learn that you maybe hadn't been as aware of?

Hanna: One of the things that really Anna impressed on me was she had me do the 14:00research and she had me--in fact, she had a great library, herself, because that was one of the things she was a real stickler on. She says, "Study the shapes. I'm teaching you the basics, how to gather the clay, how to clean it, how to do the coil building." She always said, "You know, the technique is not that hard to learn. Perfecting it might take you a little while, but practice. Anything that you work hard at, then it's going to pay off at some point. What I want to impress on you, stay within our culture. I do not want to see you putting Kokopellis on your pottery! That's not us!" (Laughter)

I understood what she was saying because a lot of times when I'm making my own 15:00pottery and I'll look at designs and things--and some people have even said, "Well, isn't that kind of like copying?" I go, "No, I don't think so," because what I learned from Anna was to look at the shapes, the designs, the techniques, but put your own identity onto it. That's one thing that I really try to do.

I love the effigy pieces, but you can make ten turtle effigies, but none of them are ever going to be the same because they might start out as a turtle but they might wind up as a fish! (Laughter) Sometimes the clay does have a mind of its own.

Little Thunder: What were some of your early pots like?

Hanna: They were cattywampus. (Laughter) That would probably be a really good 16:00word. I worked with Anna for the three months, and I'd bring clay home. We processed a huge, huge tub of clay. It was actually some clay that her husband, Bob, had cleaned. What he would do is clean the clay for her, and she would grind it up. She had it in containers out in her workshop, and that was some of the first clay that I used to make my first pieces of pottery with. Then we had some that she had found either on her place or a place near Vinita. It was a huge tub. It was enough clay to keep me in business all summer.

After I'd worked and made all these pieces all summer, I go, "Anna, I've got, like, fifteen pieces of pottery here, and I don't have that many relatives that even want my pottery. What am I going to do with all this stuff?" (Laughter) She says, "Well, I just got an invitation from the Bartlesville Indian Summer 17:00Festival. I'll give you the application, and you have to send in some photos." I go, "Anna, they are not going to want my stuff at all." She says, "Oh, yes, just send out the stuff." I mailed it to them, and I waited and waited because I did not think that they'd want my pottery. I think the booth fee was like $250, and I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh!"

I finally got my letter. They sent me my acceptance, and we went--actually, Anna and her daughter, Victoria, went with me to the reception. I'd entered a little turtle effigy that we had worked on, she and I had fired. I had actually brought it home and blackened it in my oak leaves and horse manure mixture. It won, like, first place in traditional category, which was like $300. I was like, "Oh 18:00my gosh, this is really cool!" (Laughter) I have all these pieces and I sold out! (Laughs) Anna was there when I won my ribbon, and she encouraged me from the very beginning. If I ever had a question, I'd pick up the phone and call her, and she was just always there for me. It's kind of hard because we all still miss her so much.

Little Thunder: Did she help you price your first pots?

Hanna: My very first piece that I sold was to one of her collectors. Her name was Florian Griggs. She and her husband were a big supporter of that Bartlesville Indian Summer Festival. I think I said, "Maybe I can sell this for, like, twenty-five dollars." Anna looked at me, and she looked at Florian. She 19:00says, "No, I don't think so." She says, "A hundred dollars." My eyes got big, and I was like, "Whew!" (Laughter)

I know what it took to get here, but because I hadn't really been around art or the art market or really knew that much about it, that was my first Native American art show, the one that I was in. She really set my standards very high. One of her comments that I remember her making is her neighbor wanted Anna to make a candy dish. She told that lady very politely, she says, "That's not what I'm about." And she never was. She kept her art so true and so traditional that she really has set the standard for anybody that does traditional pottery making. I'm glad she set it high, and I intend to stay right there where she 20:00wants me to be. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So were your pots from the beginning sort of decorative stoneware? They're not necessarily meant to be used, but they were--

Hanna: That is correct, I mean, because we're trying to preserve this traditional pottery making. It's actually earthenware because it's just earth, clay, that we dig out of the ground and hand-process ourself. While our ancestors did use it for functional use, and it probably could be used for functional because we do want to keep it elevated to the point where it is a fine art. I try to stay with Anna's lesson in trying to make it more of an art form. Some of it could be functional, but for the most part I would say it's 21:00something that we want to have as collectible, something that could be in someone's home that they're proud of and they know the history of it, and they know why we make this. It's always an honor when someone purchases a piece of my pottery for their home or for a collection or for a museum. It's a great honor.

Little Thunder: So, did you then--were you bitten by the bug? Were you ready to do more shows immediately?

Hanna: Yes, that first show in the fall of 1999. People come to those shows that promote other art shows, so that kind of led to a few shows the next year. I think because Anna was still doing the Santa Fe Indian Art Market, I went out there with Anna and Victoria when they did the Market. In 2000, I didn't go with 22:00them. In 2001, I did go with them just to see what Art Market--that really opened up my eyes to what Native American art collectors really are about because if we ever, ever get to the point in Oklahoma with our art shows to the standard that Santa Fe has with the buyers and the collectors that understand about the artwork, then we will have actually done what Anna worked so many years to get to.

While I know that we have people that appreciate the artwork, I don't think we have the level of understanding that they do out there. They've been doing it for how many years now? I don't know. I can't remember. Seventy-five, eighty years? Maybe longer. I can't remember. We're getting there. Like the Cherokee 23:00Art Market, the Chickasaws, the Choctaws, the Creeks, they're all doing their part to get us to that point.

Little Thunder: Did you notice a different reception for Five Tribes pottery at Santa Fe Indian Market from--

Hanna: The Pueblos and the Navajos, the traditional potters, they do the same thing that we do, (they go out and hand-dig their clay and process it) but because our pottery is different than what people understand, people recognize Southwest pottery in an instant, anybody, no matter if you are a pottery collector or not. Ours is not quite as recognizable just because the designs and shapes are a little bit different. My own personal experience is that it's been 24:00well-received. I've done the Market now for ten years, and every year has been, I would say, fairly successful for someone like me, who--I'm not a full-time artist.

It's a great opportunity for me to go out there and show my Southeastern Mississippian style of pottery. The collectors are getting more familiar with it. I know Jane Osti goes out there, and Bill Glass, and we have a new Caddo potter going out there. There is a lot more exposure to our style of pottery, so it's going to be highly collectible as well. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: When did you start meeting other potters besides Anna?

Hanna: That first spring and summer I met Victoria Mitchell, Anna's daughter, and we worked quite a bit together and did a few shows together the first few years. Then I met Jane Osti, and Jane's pottery is incredible. I've always aspired to become half as good as Jane is. If I ever get to that point, I will actually feel like I've succeeded. By doing the art shows, you do meet so many incredible artists. For me, doing the art shows is like--I know whenever I see the art there, I need to step up my own game a little bit, not a little bit, but a whole lot because we have incredible Oklahoma artists. It's wonderful.

Little Thunder: What's the best piece of business advice you got from another artist, maybe not necessarily another potter?

Hanna: I think one of the hardest things for me is pricing my own artwork because I might have something that I worked hours and hours and hours on with, and it's not, like, really what I wanted it to be. I had an artist friend tell me, (another potter, he was non-Native) he goes, "Well, what you do is you have your pottery here, and you have a twenty dollar bill. Start with that. Do you want this twenty dollar bill, or do you want the pot? Well, maybe you want two twenty dollar bills or the pot."

You graduate to the point, "Do you want to keep it, or do you want the money?" So that was kind of a funny way to go about it, but it is hard. It is hard to say, "What is this worth?" to someone else, or, "What is it worth?" to yourself. It is kind of a difficult thing. You could always--how many hours did you put in it? That doesn't really work for me, but maybe it does for some artists. It's hard to know what is going to sell and what isn't going to sell. You just have to make what you like and do the best you can.

Little Thunder: So what was another important award for you?

Hanna: The very first year that I got accepted into the Santa Fe Indian Art Market. I actually got on the waiting list, and my number was three. They said, 28:00"Your chances of getting into the market are great, so go ahead, keep making your pottery just like you were going to come out here. In fact, you can come out because someone's going to sell out and then you can move into their booth, but if you do come out as an artist on the waiting list, you can't get into the artist competition."

It was like, "Well, yes, I'm going to go. I'll do that because I've got some nice pieces and I've been working all summer." Three weeks before the Market, they said, "Oh, you're in." They gave me a tiny little booth behind F&M Bank, and I was just so excited to be there. I entered an effigy bowl. It had the head, an oblong bowl with a mace handle. I entered it into one of the categories, and it won Best of Division where they had like the A, B, C, D, E, 29:00F, G. It won, like, G.

Little Thunder: Wonderful.

Hanna: It was like, "Oh, my gosh!" Victoria was with me, and Anna was there. We didn't sleep all night long! (Laughter) And we had to be there at like five o'clock in the morning to set up. It was an incredible experience. It's just knowing that the judging recognized that art form, the Mississippian Southeastern traditional pottery. It was amazing. That was probably the best show that I can remember being out there. I have won other ribbons out there, but that was definitely--I don't think I'll ever win a Best of Class, but you never know. I'm still working toward that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Can you describe, because there's sort of a phenomenon if you 30:00win a prize out there.

Hanna: Oh, there's definitely a phenomena that goes with it.

Little Thunder: What happens?

Hanna: Well, on preview night (it's on Friday night) people have to pay their fifty dollars if they go to the general preview just to go in and look at the pottery, and you can't sell anything. When you win a ribbon, though, it does carry a little weight with it because the collectors are there and they're writing the names down and seeing where you are. That Saturday morning of the first year I went out there, I had several people before I even had the pot on my table, like, "Okay, I want that pot that has the ribbons with it." They're usually waiting for you before you ever even get it on your table, so it's pretty nice. We don't do that here yet, but we're going to. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you take any other workshops after working with Anna?

Hanna: I've taken a workshop from Bill Glass, and we did more sculptural pottery just so you could learn a little different technique. Actually, he taught us really nice technique that I believe he said he learned from Allan Houser when he was out at IAIA [Institute of American Indian Arts]. But mostly I've taught workshops. I haven't really taken a lot from other people.

Little Thunder: But you did learn how to do gas-kiln firing?

Hanna: Yes, basically I taught that to myself because it's not that hard. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: It's a two-person business, the art business. Has your husband been able to play--

Hanna: My big supporter in my family is my daughter, Jackie, from the very beginning. In fact, she can make coil pottery, as well. She got bit by the bug 32:00by Martha Berry with the beadwork. She's made several bandolier bags and really didn't do it for a long time because her son was still young and very needy. Now he's seventeen and going into the Army, so she's getting back into her beadwork, and we're starting our historical-doll project. We're looking forward to that.

Little Thunder: Can you explain a little more about that?

Hanna: I've wanted to make dolls for about five or six years. My idea was that I would do the head, from the neck up, and then we would do cloth dolls for the body but make it a historical project where each doll can represent a time 33:00period, and then do the research and make sure the clothing, all the attire, is proper to that time period that we're writing about.

She is a great writer, so she does all the write-up for each doll. Dolls are a significant part of every culture, not just Native American culture. Every culture has had some type of doll, so, to me, this is kind of our contribution to keep our history alive and be able to document it as we get along with our own stories and our own research with each doll. We've made one. (Laughter) It's a beginning!

Little Thunder: I look forward to seeing more. Talk a little bit about giving a workshop. What was the first workshop that you gave?

Hanna: The first workshops that I did, I did with Victoria Mitchell, and the Creek Council House had invited us to come down there and present workshops. Basically, it's teaching the processes, even, I guess, solving some of the mystery, like "How do you get the clay? Are you sure? Will this make good pottery?" Like Anna said and has told me, the technique of coil building is pretty simple. It takes some practice to get it to where you want it to be. For most artists, we never get there. I think that's what keeps us going.

Then the firing, that's a real mystery. I always tell kids or adults, it's 35:00basically simple chemistry. You have clay, it has to harden, it has to dry, all the water has to be out of it, and you have to do a slow firing process so it can go from clay to ceramic. You can do that with wood.

Little Thunder: How do you think giving workshops has impacted your own work?

Hanna: A lot of times I really--not a lot of times, most of the times, I enjoy teaching the workshops more than I do the art shows themselves. The art shows can be rewarding because people appreciate your work, and they pat you on the back, and they say, "Oh, did you make that? Oh, that's great." But teaching is, I guess, Anna's legacy is what I was going to say because that was what she did. 36:00She wanted her legacy, what she learned, what she was self-taught, to me, to Victoria, to Jane, so many people that she influenced with her own high level of expectations for what it should be. That's what we want to do. We want to pass it on to the next generations. Now I have three granddaughters, so we may even have a generation thing going here pretty soon. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I wanted to ask you about giving workshops in Georgia. I don't know if that was your first time going to some of the homelands.

Hanna: Let's see this is 2012, so in 2011--I think it was April of 2011, the Cherokee--I'm sorry. I can't remember the name of the project, but they had a, 37:00basically it was an artist-in-residency program where you go to--we went to northwest Georgia. Actually, my aunt went with me to Dalton, Georgia, I think, northwest Georgia. There was not a single Cherokee child to be found. (Laughs)

The concept was you went there--actually, we went from grade school all the way up through high school and did several workshops each day. We did the mini-presentations so that they would actually have exposure to the people that had lived in those lands before them that are no longer there but hopefully had an impact on what was there before them so that they could have some knowledge of that. That was a great experience. The kids and the faculty members, we were 38:00well-received. They provided us with a place to stay, and I wish I could remember the name of the group that really sponsored that. I know part of it was through Cherokee Nation, but there was like a sponsorship program.

Little Thunder: I wanted to ask you if you had a chance to do any research, Mississippian research maybe, while you were in Georgia at any of those museums.

Hanna: Because I had such a hectic schedule and I was only there for a week--like one day was driving. It seems like we got there on a Sunday, and we started right off on Monday. We'd do, like, three schools a day, so it was pretty busy. They actually provided us with a place to stay just right outside of Dalton. The little cabin that we stayed in was a family place that had been 39:00in their family for years and years, and there was no TV, no radio. (Laughter) It was really a nice quiet time, went to bed, got up, and started in the next morning.

Little Thunder: But you have gone to North Carolina. You've shown at Qualla [Arts and Crafts] before?

Hanna: I haven't actually shown or done any workshops or done any of their art shows out there. When I first started with my pottery, I did feel compelled that I needed to go visit the ancestral homelands, and so my daughter and my grandson, who was only five at the time, we drove out. I took a vacation.

Our first stop was in Helen, Georgia, where some of Anna's friends were. They 40:00had that Tekakwitha Art Gallery, and we did a little workshop there with that little gallery and spent the night with the Lammers[es], who own the gallery. Then we went on to Georgia the next day and stayed with some of Anna's friends, Betty Dupree, who actually had run the Qualla.

Little Thunder: Museum.

Hanna: Yes. Well, no. It's actually a co-op, the Qualla Co-op. She was very cordial to us. She showed us around town. We went to the gallery, and we went to the museum, which was really incredible. We went to the plays out there, so it was a vacation. It was pretty moving because the Cherokee people we saw there looked like my cousins. (Laughs) It was moving in a way that's kind of hard to 41:00explain just because if I'd been in a different family or things had happened differently, I mean, I could've been there instead of here. Like I said, it's hard to explain, but it was a great trip, and I hope to get to go out there and visit again because it's kind of like going home.

Little Thunder: Did you have any ideas that surfaced in your work after that?

Hanna: What I really felt after being in Cherokee--and I don't want to sound ungrateful about the artwork there or unappreciative, but I was so glad that I had Anna because if they had had her there, it might've-- They do have some quality artists, Joel Queen, and there are a lot of some of the older potters 42:00there. Our pottery (and maybe I'm just prejudiced) is a little bit different than theirs. Now, Joel Queen, he's more contemporary, but as far as, like, traditional, the effigies and the bowls and things that are, I don't know, theirs is a little bit different. You can tell. They're from their area, and we're from here. We're not the same, but we do study the same shapes and the stamped pottery and that kind of thing. Like I said, Anna set the standard pretty high for us. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Have you benefitted a little bit from--they finally got that legislation passed to earmark a certain percentage of the tribe's--

Hanna: Any time they build --

Little Thunder: --expenditures on new buildings for art.

Hanna: When they first built the casino out--I guess when they opened up the hotel, I did get, like, one piece of pottery.

Little Thunder: At Catoosa, Hard Rock?

Hanna: At Catoosa, yes. I think it's one of those things where you have to apply or you have to send your--and because I work full-time, I really just never pursued that. I don't really have anything in the gift shops. Maybe one of these days, but right now I don't.

Little Thunder: So, how do you manage that, working full-time and--you just know how many shows you can actually do?

Hanna: Yes.

Little Thunder: How do you balance that?

Hanna: Like this year I've only done two art shows, but then because the Five Civilized Tribes and the Cherokee Heritage Museum, they have the Trail of Tears and then they have the Homecoming show and then the Five Civilized Tribes has Art under the Oaks, at least I do have an opportunity to show my work in those. 44:00It's an art-competitive show. You can still get a little bit of work out there and get your recognition, and so people still see your work even though there's not a whole lot of it right now.

Little Thunder: Typically, how many pieces do you try to do on a weekend?

Hanna: Like when I went to Santa Fe, I took about fifteen pieces, and so I was more selective with what I made for that because I came home with three pieces.

Little Thunder: Working specifically for that show.

Hanna: Yes because that is my big art market. Like the Cherokee Art Market, while it's a great show and they have lots of ribbon money, $75,000, it's not a good selling market yet. I still want to continue to support it because that's the only way that we're going to get to the level where we need to be, where the 45:00buyers come in and recognize the quality artwork and people can actually profit from participating in that art show. Hopefully, one day we'll be there.

Little Thunder: Are commissions a very big part of your work?

Hanna: I might do only a half a dozen commissions a year. It's not like I have a website or I try to advertise it. It's just if somebody refers me, or like I'll come back from Santa Fe with, maybe, three or four commissions. And that's fine. That's all I really have time to do for. Commissions to me are harder to do than like, "Oh, I saw a piece of driftwood, and now I know I'm going to make a fish effigy to go on it, and I'm going to mount it." It's not as inspiring for someone to say, "Okay, well, I want this kind of pot." It's much more rewarding, 46:00I guess, to make what's in your mind or on your heart.

Little Thunder: So, how do you think--we're going to talk just a little bit about your philosophy and your techniques now. How do you think the colors of your work, pottery, and the forms have maybe changed over the years?

Hanna: I think, for myself, mine hasn't really changed a lot from when I started thirteen years ago with Anna. It's just because that's what I enjoy doing. Every artist wants to grow in their art. Last year I did a contemporary form out of some commercial earthenware clay. I did a nice big carved pot. I put a big price 47:00on it. It won a big ribbon, and it still wasn't as rewarding to me as doing my little turtle effigies. I wanted to know that I could do that, but that's not really my style. I may do a few more pieces like that, but I like my little pieces. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: And the majority of your work is still wood-fired, I suppose, too.

Hanna: Yes, except for this summer. Almost every summer now for the past few years because of the droughts, we've had the burn ban going. This summer was so incredible dry I couldn't cheat at all, and it did hurt me at Santa Fe this year because I couldn't enter into a traditional category. That's where I feel like my strengths are and what I enjoy and what I want to promote for myself. I had 48:00to enter it all in contemporary, even though it was in my Native clay, hand-formed, everything but wood-firing. Hopefully, we're going to get some more rain soon! (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Now, you do a lot of incising of designs. Do you draw those? Do you sketch those out prior to working on them?

Hanna: Sometimes. Sometimes I'll have a little book or something and lay out the designs that I want. One of the things that Anna taught me is that, "Okay, you build your pot, and you think of what you want." But because I'm not a perfectionist, she said, "Don't worry if part of the design isn't quite going to fit like you're going to duplicate." She says, "You make the design fit the pot," and so that's what I do.

It kind of falls into place somehow, even though it might be a little bigger 49:00over here and a little bit smaller over here because I don't have templates. I might have, like, a small template or something, but it's not a perfect science to putting the design on the pot. It's just what she said: "Make the design fit the pot." And that's what I do.

Little Thunder: How important is burnishing for you, the burnishing part of the process?

Hanna: I've gone to Gilcrease and got to go into their archives and study and research and photograph, not very many Woodland pieces but a lot of the Southeastern, what they call the Mississippian time period pieces. They weren't highly burnished. I know a lot of the artists now are doing the real high-glossy burnishing, and I like that, too, but mine mostly are a little more matty. 50:00They're not that real glassy, shiny because that's not my style.

Little Thunder: How about your signature? How'd you do that?

Hanna: Well, because my dad was somewhat of a doodle artist, I guess--and actually, he had been a silversmith artist in his younger years before he met and married my mom, and then, of course, he raised his kids. About five years or six years before he died, he got started back into making his jewelry again, and he signed his jewelry "Run Free." I don't know where that came from. I was a daddy's girl, and so when I started making my pottery, that was the first thing that went on my pottery just because of my dad. So it's Run Free. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Hanna: I usually have to think on it a while. I'll get an idea, and sometimes I'll even write it down because I might forget about it if I don't. (Laughs) Or I'll put it in my notes on my iPhone or something and mull it over for a little while, and then I'll start on it. Then, usually, it'll come together pretty good, not always, but sometimes. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Will you see a piece all the way through, or will you be working on several pieces simultaneously?

Hanna: With pottery, especially if you're getting ready for a show, it's really better to work on two or three pieces at one time because you're going to have one piece that's still kind of wet. You can start on another piece while this one's setting up a little bit and maybe get another one started and keep it covered up. It is good, especially if you're working toward a show, to get two or three pieces going at one time because with clay, if you keep it covered up 52:00pretty good, you can let it process to the point where you can do the work that you want to when it dries a little bit more.

Little Thunder: Do you have a place around here where you dig your clay?

Hanna: I do not have a great source for clay. I'm the person that when we're driving down the road and they're working on the roadbed or something, "Oh my gosh, there's clay over there!" (Laughter) Just because I don't have a good source for clay. I do have a pile of clay down in the pasture. My daughter had friends that worked for Frankoma Pottery, which is right down the road from us, before they closed. They hauled clay for them from what they call Sugar Loaf Hill in Sapulpa.

I once mentioned to her friends, I said, "Well, I sure would like to have some of that clay." They said, "Well, I'll bring you some," so they did. They brought me a dump truck load full of clay. It's now in the pasture. Stuff grows out of 53:00it. (Laughter) I can go down and get some. It's a little soft, but it makes really pretty pottery. It doesn't burnish great, but if you make a nice little slip out of it, you can get a little more shine.

Little Thunder: How important are slips with your work?

Hanna: I usually put a slip, at least a little fine slip maybe of the same clay body, on everything because, to me, it makes a little smoother pot. To me, the slip is just the fine particles of clay. Because you are hand forming, you have some little incongruities in your piece. It kind of fills that in, and then when you burnish it, it even fills it in a little bit more. I like to use the slips. I think they're good.

Little Thunder: What is your creative routine?

Hanna: Only through the workweek. Saturdays and Sundays are for family and grandkids. Usually come home, fix dinner, do a load of laundry, clean up the kitchen, and then I go out to my workshop, me and my dogs. My husband watches the ball games on TV, and that way I have my clay and can sometimes work too late.

Little Thunder: But at least a couple hours.

Hanna: Yes.

Little Thunder: Okay, so what was maybe a fork-in-the-road moment for you when you could've gone one direction with the pottery and you went in another?

Hanna: My road with my pottery has been pretty straight, again, just because of Anna Mitchell. She taught me the way I wanted to go, and I believed in her, and 55:00I had faith and confidence in her. It was so much about the culture and the processes. It's been pretty much the same from the very beginning.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the high points of your career? It might've been one that you mentioned.

Hanna: I've done the Santa Fe Indian Art Market, and I've had success there. I've been to the Heard [Museum] show and the Eiteljorg [Museum of American Indians and Western Art] show and our shows here, the Red Earth. I don't do as much of those anymore because the job I have right now is a great job. It's very demanding, so I'm not doing as many shows now. Honestly, anytime anyone asks me anything about my pottery, it's just because I say I met this wonderful lady. I 56:00was already an adult, my kids were raised, and she really influenced the path I've taken for thirteen years now. I know she's gone, but she's always with us.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Hanna: Losing Anna, definitely.

Little Thunder: You've talked about the dolls that you're going to collaborate on with your daughter. Is there another project coming up that you're super excited about or a technique that you've--

Hanna: Because I have the three granddaughters now, and they're young, (they're one, two, and four) I really want to take them to the art shows, give them the exposure that I didn't get. Not cram it down their throat (no one wants that for their kids or grandkids) but show them the path, and if that's what they choose, 57:00then I want to teach them what I know and see what happens from there.

Little Thunder: And we'll get to see the piece that you've kept, that your granddaughters have dibs on, probably, now. (Laughs) Is there anything that we've forgotten to cover that you'd like to add?

Hanna: I don't think so. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share my story and hope that it'll influence someone else maybe to follow the traditional pottery path. There's not a whole lot of us. I mentioned that I do the Creek Cultural Day, and we have hundreds of kids come. It's really great exposure for them because I am taking the Native clay, let them see what it takes. They grind it and sift it, and then we rehydrate it and wedge it all together. Then I let 58:00them make the pieces out of it.

I tell those kids, I said, "One of these days, one of you might be a potter or an artist or something, but if you choose this traditional pottery path and you don't like hard work, you won't like this." It is about hard work, but it's very rewarding when you know you can go out and dig your own clay, do everything from the very beginning, use what Mother Nature provided for you, and come out with something that can be quite extraordinary sometimes. Not all of them are going to be like that, but sometimes you get that piece and you go, "Oh my gosh! That's what I should've done." It can be very rewarding.

Little Thunder: Great. We're going to take a look at your work then. Okay, would you like to tell us about this piece?

Hanna: This is what I would call a tripod water bottle. The inspiration for this is--my three granddaughters are ages four, two, and one--but to go along with the Three Sisters: corn, beans, and squash. When I started on this, it was going to be a traditional entry for Santa Fe, but I did not get to wood fire it. I don't even think I entered it out there this year.

We have the corn for my little green-eyed Kambryn, who's the four-year-old. Then we have the beans, and she's a little one-year-old. That kind of fits her personality, as well. (Laughter) Then we have the squash, which is the middle granddaughter that's two. I looked at their faces. They all have this little button nose. It is a piece that I'm sure I'll keep for the girls.

Little Thunder: That's very nice.

Hanna: It is a traditional style, just like Anna said, with my own identity put onto it.

This piece was inspired from a Moundville stone bowl. It does have this kind of a mythological serpent head on it. The head is pretty much like what I saw in the photograph, and the boat shape and the duck, but what I did a little bit more is do some light carving but with Mississippian designs: the hand and the eye, and the spirals repeated on each side. Now, in hindsight if I did this again, I'd probably make it a little bit taller, but it's too late now. The head's hollow, and it actually has some little beads in it, which is typical of 61:00some of those Southeastern, more ceremonial-type piece is what I would call this.

Little Thunder: It's just beautiful. You can see the fact that the burnish is more subtle. You can see how nicely that works.

Hanna: And this one is only wood fired because I've done this one since I got back from Santa Fe. They actually lifted the burn ban in Creek County.

Little Thunder: Yes, I saw that. Finally!

Hanna: I'm like, "I'm in Creek County! Oh my gosh, the pottery gods are smiling on me!" (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You're right! There are pottery gods, and they're smiling! (Laughter) All right, and this piece?

Hanna: This piece, because I've done so many of the animal effigies, I've done a lot of turtles and fish. Those seem to be my best ones. Frogs. But actually, I was in a flea market or junk store, and I found an old doily, a grandmother's doily. I immediately said, "That's my next turtle," because the top part is 62:00flat, just rolled out flat with the doily rolled on top of it. To me, it made the perfect turtle top, and then the rest of it is coiled. I did elaborate, which I don't normally do, with a little bit of--

Little Thunder: Copper--

Hanna: --copper foil. It's a turtle effigy bottle.

Little Thunder: Right, I love the little face.

Hanna: I actually got to wood fire this one, too. I made these for the Cherokee Art Market.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you very much for your time tonight, Crystal.

Hanna: I'm glad you came, and I know it's a late night for you when you have to do this.

------- End of interview -------