Oral history interview with Brent Learned

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, October 5, 2012, and I'm interviewing Brent Learned as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Brent, you're a member of the Cheyenne Arapaho tribe, a graduate of the University of Kansas. You're known for your colorful, semi-abstract paintings that have won a number of awards and lots of attention. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

Learned: Oh, you're welcome.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Learned: I grew up right here in Oklahoma City. Basically, I just grew up right here in Oklahoma City. Family, I came from a family of ten. There were ten of us. My father was a sculptor, and my mother was a chairperson of the Cheyenne Arapaho tribe, one of the first women of a tribe to become a chairperson.

Little Thunder: Yes, she really broke some new ground for Native women, not just 1:00in Oklahoma but around the country. How did her work inspire you? How has it impacted you?

Learned: Well, the way it happened, the way she inspired me was, for one, she's a strong woman. My father, he was the disciplinarian, and I always looked up to my father. The way she inspired me was, once I graduated from the University of Kansas I went to her, and I said, "Mom, what can I do to make you proud?" She says, "Well, Brent, I've always been proud of you, but the one thing I'd like for you to do is to paint your heritage," because at Kansas I did a lot of abstract, did realism, just kind of dabbled in the different types of styles.

Growing up, I'd look at Native American work, but it just didn't grab me like the European work. So when she said that to me, it kind of lit a torch under me to where I'm like, "You know what? I'm going to look at that." And so as I've 2:00looked into it and looked at different Native American work, it just kind of grew into me to where I've got to look for more. I've got to find more. With that, I also wanted to do something that wasn't seen in Native American work. I'm taking an old concept of the Plains Indian and bringing him to life in modern day by using bright, bold colors because colors speak to people.

That was one way she influenced me. That and, like I said, being a strong woman and just standing up for the Native American culture. Growing up, again, there really wasn't too many that were around me that were very influential to where I was proud of my culture because let's face it. Growing up, on a Sunday afternoon sitting there with Mom and Dad, we'd sit there and watch westerns. In those old 3:00westerns, who was always getting beat? It was the Indian. As a little kid, I'd always look at it going, "Beat 'em!" As I got older, I'm like, "Wait a second. I'm Indian. Why are they always getting beat? Why don't they ever win?"

It wasn't until I saw the movie Dances With Wolves that really kind of kicked it over the edge for me. Growing up, as a young man, you always go through different things that change you to who you are now, so I went through a lot of transgression and transition through the years of just self-discovery. I really found myself by painting what I do now.

Little Thunder: Well, your father was working, I guess, in a realistic style then.

Learned: My father, his work was always influenced by the Plains Indian.

Little Thunder: So he was doing Indian subject matter.

Learned: Oh, yes, even before I was born. Growing up and watching him sculpt, that influenced me to where I think I got my talents from my father and my social skills from my mother, to an extent. (Laughter) Like with Dad, when he'd sculpt, it was just a thing of beauty because he'd sit there, and it's just like the guy would get lost in his own work. He would even tell me it gets to a point where he's just the instrument and it sculpts itself. I tell people I kind of feel that same way when I paint because they always ask me, "What do you think of when you paint?" I'm just like, "It gets to a point when you really don't think. You're reacting, and you're bringing out certain aspects of the painting and pushing other things back. It gets to a point to where it paints itself." 5:00I'd like to see the history of the painting as you go along, but yet you get a feel to where you're a part of it.

Little Thunder: So, in terms of your grandparents, did they play a role in your life, on either side?

Learned: By the time I was born, all my grandparents had passed away except for my grandmother on my father's side. Like I say, I didn't really know them. I just heard about them growing up, but I never got the opportunity to actually meet any of them except for my grandmother.

Little Thunder: In terms of your first experience of seeing Native art by a Native artist, do you remember your first time seeing that?

Learned: Yes, I was a little kid because, like I said, my father was a sculptor. He had a lot of Indian artists that would come over, and one of them in particular was Woody Big Bow. I was a little kid, and I remember he'd always come over. We'd always sit around, and we'd play while my dad and him would 6:00talk. We'd somewhat play a game in a way. He would tell jokes and stuff. As a little kid, we'd understand because it'd be myself and my four other brothers. There was one time in particular he came over that he did this piece, and he was wanting Dad to put that into bronze form.

Dad was talking to him, and he goes, "What are you going to put it on, Woody?" He goes, "Well, I don't--what do you mean?" He goes, "You've got to have a base for it." Woody asked me to run down to my dad's Quonset to grab a piece of wood, so I ran down there and brought back one of Dad's bases and brought it up. He goes, "How about this, John?" He goes, "No, that's mine. You need to bring your own." (Laughter) But, like I said, he would always come over. He would draw for us, so in a way I kind of got a hands-on with him as a little kid. There were 7:00others, but he was pretty much the first one. I was probably around four or five at the time.

Little Thunder: What is your first memory of making your own art?

Learned: The first one that really got my attention that, "Hey, people really like what I do," was when I was a little kid. Mom bought me this book. It was a Mickey Mouse book. It was like from the 1930s, '30s and '40s, and one of the images was Mickey Mouse being tackled by Donald Duck. At the time, my older brother played football at Kansas. This one summer I had stayed with my grandmother, my brother was living with her, and he was playing football at 8:00Kansas. That kind of always stuck in my mind. I've always wanted to draw that.

Also, growing up, is that they hated OU, (Laughter) so the aspect of my brother playing at Kansas, them hating OU. What I did was I drew Mickey Mouse running the ball over Donald Duck, but the way I did it was--Mom had gotten me this little book. The pages were eight-by-eleven, standard-size pieces of paper, and I wanted a poster. What I did was I drew sections, and it got to a point where Mom would come in and she'd tape it. She was like, "How are you doing this?" because I never lined it up. Once I got finished, she taped it together, and I had this big poster that still sits in my grandmother's house up in Kansas. She was shocked that here I am, four years old, drawing and not lining that stuff 9:00out but was able to just draw a little section, put it to the side, draw another little area, and then it all come together as this big giant puzzle of a poster.

That was the first time that I saw the impact of what art could do because my mom was shocked and everyone who had saw that. As a kid, I would remember her telling that story on how her young son did that and she was amazed.

The other one was when I was in the first grade. We'd had art class. We had this art teacher who'd worked for--at the time, she was pretty famous. I can't remember her name, but I do remember the incident. She'd come into the school, and she was teaching us how to do profiles, do portraits. She walked around and gave everyone pieces of paper and pencil, and she had us draw. When it got to 10:00me, I drew myself, and she was shocked. She even called my mom and said, "This kid could really draw." She was really shocked on how well I could draw the human form, not only that but myself. I did a self portrait.

That was the first time I ever won an award. The award was she got to pick her favorite piece, and the person got to ride around in a police van with all the other kids. (Laughter) I don't know if that was really a big thing, but for me that was the first thing I won. You got to drive anywhere you want, and all the kids and the teacher got in the back. We went to over to the house, and we honked the horn. Mom came out, and she'd thought something happened to one of her kids. I told her, I said, "No, I won this award," and they laughed. That was the first award that I ever won was a police ride. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What a wonderful story! So, essentially, you were getting a little bit of art instruction at the primary- and middle-school level, or was that just off and on?

Learned: No, I was--you've got to realize, with me, the thing is that growing up I'd always loved art. For me, it was just something I did. It wasn't something I thought about, so it came natural. It's like an athlete running. He just runs. He does it day in and day out to where, "How did you become a runner?" "Well, I just run. I love to run." The same with me. I just love to draw and paint. The one thing that's always kind of struck me as odd is that I didn't have to go to the University of Kansas for art, but yet it was always instilled in me from my 12:00mom and dad at an early youth is that you got to know where you came from to know where you're going in life.

Where Mom had influenced me, Dad also influenced me. I've got this great culture on both sides, Dad being white and Mother being Indian, so I combine the two to try to use that to my advantage. With the art, like I said, it just came so natural. Not only that, I'm a pretty good-sized man. It just seemed like I was gifted all the way around, sports-wise, athletics, art, everything except the English language because I'm dyslexic as hell, but, you know, what the heck. (Laughter) I also noticed my father. He was also dyslexic. It just seemed like art, he gravitated towards that. Same with me was that I was always gravitated 13:00to art to where it just came easy for me, and so I loved doing it.

When they say, "Oh, where did you go to school?" it didn't matter where you go to school because in the end you're the one who has to draw. You're the one who has to paint. You are the one who--if you want to learn what you want, you've got to go to the library, research it, figure it out because in art school they're going to tell you anything that anybody else is going to tell you: If you like Picasso, well, then go and look at Picasso. It's like my father. Even as a young kid, literally he'd have books on [Frederic] Remington, [Charles Marion] Russell, [Charles] Schreyvogel, [Henry] Farney, books of that sort. He'd go, "Why don't you draw one of these images?"

It got to a point where once you do something repetitiously, it's going to come naturally to where you don't have to think about it. As a young kid, I did that. 14:00I was looking at Remington and Russell's work. See, that was my influence to Indian art as a kid because we didn't have too many Native American art books at that time because at that time there really wasn't that many. When I went to college, a lot of the teachers would just go, "Go ahead and paint." It was a free-for-all. They didn't really sit down and teach you. I'd sit there and listen to my father when he'd tell his stories of when he was in art school at Kansas. They actually took classes with pre-law students. They took classes with business students. They took classes with medical students because as an artist, you touch on all those aspects. It was more of a traditional--

Little Thunder: So, they had the art students in your program--

Learned: Well, that was my father. With me, you're talking thirty years later. The academics of it had changed. When my father was in college, when he was taking art school, he took classes where they went in there and looked at 15:00cadavers. When I took art school, they just gave us a picture of what a cadaver looked like. It was totally different, but it boils down to, is that it's either you have it or you don't. You either have the talent, or you don't. It's self-drive. You've got to want it. That's all I can say on that is that when it comes to art, you either have it or you don't. You've got to work on it. Every artist, whether they went to college or not, they're self-taught because it boils down to, is you're the one who's doing the work.

Little Thunder: How early did you decide you were going to be an artist?

Learned: I was a little kid, little kid. As soon as I was able to walk and run, the first thing I saw was Dad sitting there sculpting. I knew that's what I 16:00wanted to do, not only that, my father, what he was doing, but the things I'd watch on public access TV. We grew up on that: Sesame Street, Electric Company, Zoom. Some of the earliest artists that I watched were Bob Ross, and there was--Professor Artist was his name. There was another art guy on those shows that we used to watch as kids. As a young kid, the cheapest form of entertainment was a piece of paper and a crayon. We didn't have the luxury of going out and getting a bunch of toys. If we got a toy, you've got to realize, I'm the sixth boy. It was new to me, but it was old to my older brother. Art was always a way to play because you'd always do games.

Little Thunder: When did you sell your first piece of art?

Learned: First piece of art that I think I ever sold was--golly. Well, the first one I can actually remember as an adult was when I was a senior at Kansas. One of the guys I worked for at the Alumni Center, he played football with my brother when they both played at Kansas, and he said, "Can you do a portrait of my dog? I was really close to him." I could see it meant a lot to him. I said, "Yes, sure. Just give me a photograph of him, and I'll have something for you in the next few days."

He gave me a photograph of his dog. I did a charcoal rendition of him, and he broke down, and he cried. He goes, "It looks so much like my dog, I was shocked." He goes, "I'll be honest with you. I didn't realize that you were that 18:00good." I said, "Well, I told you I could draw. It's just you never believed me." (Laughter) He goes, "Well, I knew your brother. You guys act alike, but yet you are so much different in the aspect when it comes to your actual talent that I was just really shocked." Then after that, I'd gotten other little commission pieces from not only his friends but other people, but the first piece I ever sold for money was a piece done for my brother's friend of his portrait of his dog.

Little Thunder: So you had a little bit of money coming in that way.

Learned: Yes.

Little Thunder: What did you do when you got out of school?

Learned: Just like any young man trying to find themselves. It took a little bit, but, again, it came back to Mom because I always looked up to her. She 19:00said, "You need to do this show. It's right there in Lawrence. You live right there in Lawrence. It's called the Haskell Indian Art Market." So I said, "Okay. I don't know really what to do," because, as I said, in college they never really tell you how to prepare yourself on a portfolio or how to basically sell yourself. Mom, being a chairperson of the tribe, knowing a lot of people, and knowing the ins and outs, she goes, "Well, I'll help you with that." So she helped me with my first show, which was--it happened in Lawrence.

Little Thunder: Did they drive up, too?

Learned: Yes, they drove up. That very first show, again, I didn't know what to expect, so I just brought my artwork there. I didn't realize you had to bring your own screens to hang it, so we went out and made a makeshift screen. (Laughter) I was kind of shocked on just the overall appreciation that people 20:00had, not only for my stuff but for my comrades that were all up there.

Little Thunder: You were doing your first qualitative art show.

Learned: The very first show, yes, and it was really, it was just really beautiful. There's no other words really to say other than beautiful because you're walking around, you're seeing not only paintings but drawings and pottery, rugs, beadwork, jewelry, not only that but dance. I'd seen that earlier in my life. When we were kids we'd go to powwows and stuff, but to actually sit there and partake, saying, "Hey, I'm part of this. I'm putting this out there. This is me. This is what I'm about," it was a hell of an experience. It was intoxicating. It got to a point to where it's almost like a drug. You need more 21:00of it because when you talk to people who are just like you, you've been found. After college, like I said, I was lost, but once I did that very first show, I found myself.

Little Thunder: Do you remember the year, Brent?

Learned: It was in '94.

Little Thunder: In '94, okay. So you started checking into shows. Did you approach galleries?

Learned: No, I had the fortunate to where galleries approached me. I did search for shows, and the way your typical Indian artist does a show is they ask around. Say, "Hey how's that show going? How's that?" "Don't do that one." "Do this one." "Heard bad things." It's just word of mouth. It's just like anything in life. You're going to have your ups and downs, your tribulations, and so it's 22:00just a matter of trying to find your niche and your market. It just takes a little time.

Little Thunder: Now, when you did the Haskell show, were you primarily doing acrylic on canvas? What was your subject matter and material?

Learned: It's just like a musician. When you hear him when he first comes out, he plays one way. You hear him five years later, he changes his tune. You hear him another five years, his music. You change with the times. You find yourself. Your work and you grow as one, and so you're going to change with it. At that time, I was doing a lot of pencil drawings and charcoal drawings. Then that led to oil paints and then eventually acrylics and then oil pastels. You branch out, and you dabble with a little bit of everything else until you find what works 23:00and what doesn't. At that time, I was mainly working in charcoal drawings.

Little Thunder: What was an early award that really stands out for you, competitive award?

Learned: To be honest with you, I couldn't think of one because (and this is going to sound strange and weird, but I'm like my father) I really don't believe in awards because that eliminates your competition. For one, the people who choose the winners and losers are somewhat biased to begin with. Dad always instilled in me, and he always taught all the way until the day he passed, was that your art should stand on its own. Anytime I've ever gotten a ribbon or whatnot, it didn't really mean too much to me.

There was a couple of occasions to where I've met famous people that were going to give me something, and it didn't really mean too much to me because, for one, Mom wasn't there, two, I didn't really care too much about the award, just being honest, and three, what Dad said to me as a young man always kind of stuck with me, that awards, they eliminate competition. Like I said, it boils down to is that it's a bias thing and that he never believed into it. I loved my father so much, I also have that same mind thought, same thoughts.

Little Thunder: So you haven't really tried particularly hard to enter competitive shows?

Learned: To be honest with you, not really because when I go out south to the 25:00Southwest, when I do shows out there, I notice how (and this is going to sound bad) they look down upon the Plains Indian. They really do. I tell people that, and they're like, "Oh, no!" I say, "Hey, believe me. They do." It's a different world. There's politics in everything, especially with art.

Another thing is when I got into art, I didn't realize how corrupt it is sometimes with the galleries and how the museums and how many people will backstab you and everything else. It's just literally amazing. I got friends who are ex-drug addicts and everything. They've told me their story, and I go, "Hey, dude, I've pretty much done the same thing without the drugs." (Laughter) It literally is amazing, yet with art, it's taken me to places that I didn't know 26:00about. I've been introduced to people I would've never met. That's the beauty of it.

Little Thunder: What is one of the memorable places you've gone on an art show?

Learned: Well, growing up watching commercials of Disneyland or Disneyworld and thinking, "Hey, Mom and Dad, are you going to--" Then again, hell, there's ten of us, so naturally we couldn't afford all of us to go. One of the things that kind of sticks out was when the State of Oklahoma contacted me and said, "Hey, we'd like for you to represent Oklahoma at Disneyworld," and it was through my art.

Little Thunder: It was in Florida, right?

Learned: Florida. It was in '07, the centennial of the statehood. For one, I felt proud to be an Oklahoman, and two, I felt proud not only representing Oklahoma but my tribe and my artwork. Going down there on that experience was 27:00just a blast.

Little Thunder: What are some of the things you did?

Learned: Down there?

Little Thunder: Yes. (Laughs)

Learned: It's not for tape or video. I'm sorry. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Okay, but you did check out Disney[world] for a couple hours.

Learned: Oh, yes. You could say we checked it out. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: There are a number of Native abstract artists. Are there any whose style you particularly admire, or approach?

Learned: Well, a lot of people say that my stuff resembles T. C. Cannon's, you know, of the color aspect and sometimes the imagery, but as contemporary guys now, I'd have to really think because I'm really too busy doing my own stuff to 28:00really look. I do appreciate other art. Don't get me wrong. It's just right now, to say that somebody's influencing me, they all do. To try to single out one, it would be kind of wrong. I'm just trying to think of one offhand that's just blowing my socks off. There's a couple of them right now. Just to name one, I couldn't do that. It wouldn't be fair.

Little Thunder: On the other hand, I sometimes think abstract art or semi-abstract art is kind of a hard sell in Oklahoma. What has your experience been with being a Native artist and working in this more expressionistic style?

Learned: It's like my dad would always say. He goes, "No matter what you do in 29:00the art world, it will sell. The problem is you've got to find that person." Here in Oklahoma, I've never really run into that because people seem to like what I do, which is great. I'll say that again: it's great! (Laughter) But like I said, it's one of those things that people are going to--they like what they like. Again, I'm saying "like my dad would always say" because growing up with a father who was an artist who worked with some of the greats, he worked with Thomas Hart Benton, worked with all the Native American greats during the '50s, '60s, and into the '70s. He'd always say that people are going to buy what they want, and people buy art because it takes them out of reality. It takes them to 30:00a place that they could be at.

If you're at an art show, when you're walking around, listen to when people say, "I can see myself there," or, "It speaks to me." Well, the reason why it's speaking to you is because that's the connection that art has when you see it. That piece or that sculpture or whatever that thing is, it's an attraction. You don't know what it is. It's an unwritten one, but yet you can gravitate towards that to where only you see something in that to where no one else can. That's the beauty of it.

I remember the first couple pieces right before I did the Haskell show. Mom and Dad had a frame shop, and I did a couple of drawings. I wasn't too pleased with them, so I crumpled them up, threw them in the trash. Mom got them and had my 31:00brother dry mount them and flatten them out. I came back, saw them, and they were all framed out nicely. I'm thinking, "Hell, I just threw those away because I didn't like them." She goes, "No, I really like them. I bet you could sell them." So on a bet, I went around just cold calling people I didn't know, and I ended up selling all twelve of them that same day to one person.

Little Thunder: Oh, my goodness.

Learned: Mom, she told me, she goes, "I believe in you. I know you can do it."

Little Thunder: On those cold calls, were they people that had been in the frame shop?

Learned: I'd never met them. I just called places I figured somebody would want--I called on attorneys. I called on doctors. I called on different frame shops. (Laughter) Believe me, I was learning at the time, cold calling is the 32:00worst thing anybody could possibly do.

Little Thunder: Did you do it by phone or by walking in?

Learned: By phone. I wasn't going to waste gas by driving around. (Laughter) I called around. I started around eight o'clock that morning, and by six o'clock that evening I had a check. I had showed Mom, just shaking my head. I was going, "You were right." She goes, "Yes, those were nice pieces. I couldn't understand why you didn't--."

Little Thunder: So what's been either a group show or museum show that's been particularly significant for you?

Learned: Oh, wow. Up until now, it's probably the one at--golly, that's kind of hard because there's been a couple of them. The one that comes to mind right off the bat is the one that when my tribe asked me and a couple other fellow tribal 33:00artists if we can depict an event in our tribal history that changed the course. That happened in Canton. I want to say that was in '98, '99. Merlin [Little Thunder] was part of that.

Little Thunder: Was this [Lawrence] Hart's[Cheyenne Cultural Center] project?

Learned: Yes. When was that?

Little Thunder: I'm not sure either, but it sounds about right, '99 or so.

Learned: It was, yes, about '99, 2000, somewhere around there. That one, to me, is kind of really at the top.

Little Thunder: What did you do for that?

Learned: That one, I depicted when the Arapaho first met the white man at the--I'm trying to remember that river. I want to say it was the Minnesota River 34:00or Illinois River. It was 1797 or something like that, somewhere around there. It was so long ago. I did a painting that depicted when they first came across white trappers, so that was mine. My brother, I'm trying to remember what he did. I have a brother, Matt. He also paints. Not as much anymore, but he did at that time, and so it was kind of nice to work with not only my brother--.

Little Thunder: Did you check in on each other's canvases periodically?

Learned: Oh, no. My brother, he's a stickler. He's real finicky. If he's going to show it to you, he's [not] going to show it to you until he's completely satisfied and done. (Laughter) I was going to get back to the point about when 35:00I'd sold those pieces. An artist is always his worst critic. He's his own worst critic because, like I said, there've been pieces to where I just want to paint over, and yet people love. And the things that I really think people would go crazy over, they didn't even give it a second look, which is wild. (Laughter)

It just kind of blows my mind because I've talked to other artists, and they all seem to say the same thing. Things that they would think would knock the socks off somebody, nobody even wants them. But the things that they just discard or--you'd be shocked on how much art has been thrown away that's been pulled out of the trash or been salvaged that are now hanging on the walls of people's homes all over the place. (Laughter)

It boils down to is that, like myself, I really don't want to put something out there that doesn't represent me or what I believe in. I think that's the majority of the way the other artists feel, also, is they don't want to put 36:00something out that they can't stand behind, but there's always somebody behind them that goes, "Hey, you need to give that other piece a chance because you're not giving it its due."

Little Thunder: Now, when you did that commission piece, had you already evolved this very bright palette?

Learned: No, no. This was even still before that. I'd gone through different changes. At that time, I guess I was going through my impressionist stage, and I really didn't get into this. In a way, this was kind of a throwback to what I did in college but not as defined. When I was in college, my professor, Norman Gee, he kept saying, "You really need to look at Edgar Heap of Birds." He'd gone 37:00to KU. "He's from your same tribe." I looked at Edgar's stuff, and I'm like, "Well, it's not the direction I want to go, but I'll look at some of that stuff." (Laughs) Then he goes, "Your color palette, I really love it." Then he started naming off some other artists. He mentioned Fritz Scholder and T. C. Cannon, and I just kind of fell in love with those colors.

Little Thunder: You went and looked at the work.

Learned: Looked at them, but it was kind of like a sample. I didn't really jump into it. I think I was just too nervous or something. At the time, I just wanted to do traditional work where when you see it, that's what it is: reputational-type stuff. Then I think one of the major changes in me was once my mother passed away. That really just--in a way, I kind of said, "Fuck it," and 38:00just wanted to let go of stuff. It wasn't that my mom held me under her reign or anything. It's just that I looked up to her. I admired her so much that I wanted her to see how successful one of her sons had become.

Once that happened, like again, I lost myself for a few years. It got to a point to where I--during my painting, I really liked going into the studio and just slapping paint on. It got to a point to where I started looking at it. I was like, "That stuff is kind of cool." I started to kind of lose myself. I lost myself in my art to where I started finding myself again and started developing 39:00the style that I do now. It's like any artist or any musician or anybody who deals in the arts. You're going to sample from other artists who've come before you, and you're just going to build on that. Hopefully, I've been doing that.

Little Thunder: Did you show at all or travel at all with Matt during the period that he was actively painting?

Learned: Matt, he only did it for like four or five years. He got to a point to where he kind of got burned out on it. He just kind of goes, "I'm just going to paint for myself." Even now, I have people who are going, "Where's your brother's work? I'd like to see what he's doing now." There's just sometimes where--like he even said, "I can't do it. This is not what I wanted to do." He 40:00went to school, also, at Kansas and got a BFA in Fine Arts, but yet he just--people are just built differently, and he's just not built the way I am or some of the other people that paint.

Little Thunder: I always am really moved when I see buffalo images in your work, and I had no idea that you sometimes use that. That's your email address. I don't know about your signature, too, or whether you're using your Indian name. Can you talk about buffalo when you do them? I don't know. They're just very--

Learned: When I do a buffalo--it's like Mom always asked me, "Why don't you paint a white buffalo? Why don't you paint a white buffalo?" I go, "Well, I really don't want to." There's things that even I censor myself on, things I'll 41:00do and won't do. That's one of them. It's not because it's sacred or this or that. It's just it's been done so many times that all I'm doing is just doing something that somebody else has already done. By not doing one, I think, goes against the grain.

But with buffalos, I just like doing them. With them, I like to get as much color and just kind of go wild and everything when I do them. Like I said, there's just something about a buffalo I like painting.

Little Thunder: Yes, you can feel that connection. You were asked to curate one of the Winter Camp shows at the Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum. What was that like, being curator?

Learned: Well, to be honest with you, it was--they had already had everything lined up, so it wasn't like I came in and did anything new. Again, it goes back 42:00to politics. There's just certain things about art that I would like to try here in the future to do, to try to change the things I see. One of them is this kind of buddy-buddy-type system. If somebody's been around for a while, throw them a bone type of thing.

I'm like, "No." I like to look at young, emerging artists. I like to see young stuff out there, young talent, things that you just don't normally see. If somebody's been around more than fifteen years, like myself, they shouldn't have to be thrown a bone to be put in a show. They should already have their own show and genre.

That was one thing about the Winter Camp that bothered me about it. The way it 43:00started is I'd met a gentleman who worked at the Cowboy Hall [of Fame], invited him over to this house party that all these guys were showing their artwork in. Long story short, I just mentioned it to him, I go, "Why don't you have--" he was impressed. He was like, "You've got some of the top-notch Native American artists all here. It'd be kind of nice to have something like that somewhere else."

I said, "Well, you're part of the Cowboy Hall. Why don't you have it over there?" He went back, talked to them. He said, "You know what? We could have that there. I said, "Well, these are the people you need to talk to," and I told him the people who invited me to their house for this show. So that very first show, they threw it. They'd asked me if I wanted to be a part of the first team 44:00of curators or people who select artists and everything. I said, "As long as I'm in it, hey, you can pick whoever the hell you want. It doesn't matter to me." I noticed that when they picked, the majority of those people that were at that first show at the person's house were not at that second show. There was a bunch of new faces and buddies of buddies there. I'm thinking, "Wait a second. This is not what was sold to me."

By the time the second one came around, they'd had one of the people that were initially on it, kicked him off, basically. They brought me on board kind of as a token. I'll be honest. It was a token type of deal. There's some things that you're proud of and you wished you'd stand up for, and at the time, I went silent. But as I've gotten older, I don't pull any punches. I'm just going to 45:00tell how it is, and if you like it, fine. If you don't, well, fine there, too. Again, the one thing that really bugs me about Indian artists is some of the politics that go on. It really is. It's just sad, and it's sad that we continue to beat ourselves down. When is enough enough?

Little Thunder: I saw that you had worked with Dale Chihuly on the Eleanor Blake Kirkpatrick Tower. How did that come about?

Learned: The way that came about was I'd been contracted by the Oklahoma City Art Museum to move some of the artwork because I knew some of the people that worked there. I said, "Hey, if you ever need help moving that stuff, let me know," so they contacted me. My brother, Matt, and I both went. We helped them move the work from the fairgrounds over to the new place downtown.

As we were there, they said, "Oh, Dale Chihuly and his guys are here." It was almost like they were saying, "The plague is here," or, "Something bad is going to happen." (Laughter) People actually work in there. "What is it?" They're like, "Oh, this guy, his teams, they're a bunch of a-holes. They demand so much, and they act like rock stars." I'm like, "What's the big deal?"

Well, they'd asked the museum if they could provide two people to help them, so they asked my brother and I, and we said, "Yes, we'll help you guys. All we're doing is hanging paintings over here. It's not like this is brain surgery. Yes, we'll help you." We end up helping these guys, and they were the coolest guys. They made it a pleasure working there.

Little Thunder: He's brilliant.

Learned: They were fun. I worked with John London, who was the head of Chihuly's installment team, got to know him really well. And when Dale came in--Dale didn't actually work on the piece. He did all this fabrication at his studio up in Seattle, but when he came in after we got finished with the installment, he got to talk to my brother and I. He told us what influenced him, which was Pendleton blankets. He said it really influenced him. Native American art really influenced him. That's when he actually would blow and do his own work. He goes, "It was nice. I feel really proud to know that I actually had two Indians work on my work here." My brother and I, we were really privileged to work with the team and everything else. He even offered an invitation to go back and work up 48:00in Seattle for him as apprentices.

Little Thunder: Oh, wow!

Learned: We just told him, "It'd be nice, but I'd like to do my own work. I've got my own stuff I want to do." But it was a pleasure working with some other artist on his work and knowing that, at the time, it was the world's largest of whatever it was. At the time, it was the largest glass sculpture.

Little Thunder: Okay, yes, just to review, they were sort of researching the site, etcetera, for the sculpture.

Learned: Yes.

Little Thunder: That's very cool. You've had a booth at Santa Fe Indian Market for several years now. What's one of the highlights of Indian Market for you?

Learned: Oh, just the fun, going out there, the atmosphere, seeing people that you haven't seen in a while, just everything about it. It's like a homecoming. 49:00You're seeing old friends. You're seeing customers and patrons and places to eat. Everything about it, it's just a fun time.

Little Thunder: Does that Oklahoma paradox happen there to you, where you have people traveling from Oklahoma to Santa Fe to buy your work?

Learned: Oh, yes. (Laughter) Yes, I'll give you a quick story. A few years ago, I'd talked to this gentleman who'd bought a piece from me. He goes, "If you ever have a wolf painting, let me know." I said, "Okay," because he had commissioned me to do a pretty-good-sized wolf painting. I did a series of wolf paintings, 50:00and I had a big one. I called him up, and I said, "Hey, I think it's probably one of the best ones I've done." He said, "Bring it over."

Took it over to his house. He looked at it, and he goes, "Yes, I'll take it." I'm figuring, "Okay, you're going to write a check, and I'll leave." He goes, "Oh, no. I'm going to buy it from you out in Santa Fe." (Laughter) I go, "Well, okay. You got it right here. I can hang it up." "No, take it out to Santa Fe." I said, "All right," so I took it out there a couple months later. Saw him. He brought over his friend that he'd gone to school with. They were standing around there, smoking their cigar. Next thing you know, he goes, "Hey, I'll take that painting." He made a big production about it in front of his friend. "All right." Then he tells me, if [I] can, can I to bring it back because he didn't 51:00have room because he just flew out there. I was thinking, "Well, yes. I can do that for you." (Laughter)

When you tell people those stories, they're so funny and so comical, but yet those happen. You get a lot of people who'll go out, buy from you. This guy lived down the street from me, but yet he wanted to buy it because he could hang it on the wall and say, "Hey, I bought this from a guy from Santa Fe." It sounds more appealing than, "Hey, I bought it from the guy down the street." (Laughter) It's the truth. There's quite a few.

Not only that, but it's just fun running into people from Oklahoma. There's quite a few people that come around going, "Oh, you're from Oklahoma. It's nice to see--." I said, "Oklahoma's still free. You can go back at any time. You don't have to stay here and meet everyone from Oklahoma. You can actually go back if you'd like." (Laughter) It's just weird. Like I said, being from Oklahoma and from a Oklahoma family, it's just kind of cool to see a lot of 52:00people surprised when they run into another Oklahoman.

Little Thunder: That's a great story. You had an exhibit at the capitol in 2011, titled Life Before Statehood. Is that correct?

Learned: No, it was this past year. It was 2012.

Little Thunder: Oh, 2012, okay.

Learned: Correction. Correction. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Thank you. (Laughter) First of all, I'm really intrigued by the title, Life Before Statehood. How many paintings did you have, and talk about your theme a bit.

Learned: Oh, man. I want to say I had twenty-five pieces displayed, but I had taken thirty-five pieces up, I want to say. There were some of them that they just didn't want to show.

Little Thunder: Really?

Learned: Yes, believe it or not. Censorship, censorship. (Laughs) No, there was. 53:00They'd contacted me and said they'd like to do a show, and I said, "Okay." They said, "Do whatever theme. We'll do whatever you want." I asked them, I said, "Well, what've other artists done in the past?" "Well, they've done portraits. Usually, they really don't have a certain theme. They might have a cool title, but not a certain theme."

I like to tell stories, not all the time, with my work, but with this, I wanted to tell a story. As a little kid when we'd go up to the state capitol for school tours and stuff, you'd look around, and one thing that always stuck in my mind (and it goes back to what I was saying earlier about sitting with Mom and Dad on a Sunday afternoon watching cowboy and Indian movies, old westerns) was that the 54:00Indians were always losing. They were always losing.

After they contacted me and said, "Hey, we'd like for you to do a show," I'd gone up there and just kind of walked around. It struck me that everything they have up there is opposite of what I believe in. For one, they have a couple of paintings that depict Indians signing something, always signing something away, giving away something.

The other thing was, I'm under the rotunda looking up, and I see all these corporations and donors who had donated to the state. Where are the other people, the other nameless people who've paid taxes and have lived here and 55:00died? Where are their names?

So I wanted to do a series of paintings that depict what life was before statehood, even battles. I depicted a scene of what I would think happened at the Battle of the Washita, where a cavalry soldier is on his horse with a saber, coming down on a woman whose son had just died. See, they thought that was too violent. Then again, I did a piece called Counting Coup, where an Indian is touching another Indian with his spear. They thought that was too violent.

They, in essence, censored what I wanted to pick. It was a good show, don't get 56:00me wrong, and I'm proud to have done it, but I really wish there was these other pieces that were shown because from my understanding when I did the show, they had the biggest response from people. People actually thought it was a permanent display up there. From that, the state got a piece from me which is now on permanent display up at the state capitol.

Little Thunder: They commissioned a piece?

Learned: Yes, but it would've been nice to let other people see some of these other scenes that I had depicted that were never shown. Again, it's just one of those things. When is enough enough?

Little Thunder: I think we've addressed how your style has kind of changed. You talked about that moment when your palette changed and your subject matter sort of changed. How about media, besides what you have mentioned? Have you ever 57:00tried any three-dimensional?

Learned: Yes, I've done some sculpting work in the past, pottery. As an artist and as somebody who is adventurous, I've tried a little bit of everything just to see if I was capable of doing it, and there was some stuff I realized, "I just can't do it." That's the reason why I don't do it. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: But your preference is now acrylic on canvas?

Learned: It's acrylic on canvas.

Little Thunder: Are you at all interested in what they call concept art--

Learned: What's concept art?

Little Thunder: --which would be more installation-type things or--

Learned: Like political art?

Little Thunder: Yes.

Learned: I've talked to a few artists, and I've given them concepts about shows. 58:00The response I've heard is that, "You don't want to travel down there. You don't want to be another Edgar Heap of Birds," or, "You don't want to be another--" I'm trying to think. What's the other political artist? I can't remember. I just know Edgar right off the bat. They said, "You don't want to be like that because the people who like your stuff are going to tend to move away from that." I got to get to a point to where I'm comfortable enough to do something like that. Eventually, I will. Eventually, I will. It's just, what's a good way of doing it?

Like I said, I've tried my hand at it with my own show up at the state capitol, and I realized what happened. It got censored from that because when you go up there, the majority of stuff that you see is just what they want you see. 59:00History is written by the conquered, not by the conquee.

It's like one time--well, going back, when I went down for the centennial, I was down there, and I talked to the governor. I admit, I had a little few many drinks at the time. We were sitting there. He came over, and he wanted to thank us for representing the state of Oklahoma and everything else. By that time, I was on a break, so it didn't--. (Laughs) I was on break, so the other lady that I was down there with, who was showing, we went and had a few drinks, and we were talking.

For one, we were talking because some of the questions we heard were just, they were just downright laughable. "Where are you from?" "I didn't know Oklahoma was a country," and all that. I'm like, "Just because we're between Morocco and Paris does not make us a country," or France or whatnot. We were talking, and we 60:00came back, and the governor was there. I walk over, and I shook his hand, said, "Thanks for this opportunity. I voted for you. I think you're doing one hell of a job, but I think there's a lot more you could do." He responded, "Well, what is there more to do?" I said, "Well, let me ask you a question. If you were a visitor to our state, where would you send them if I wanted to see something about Native Americans? Don't tell me about the sculpture on top of the capitol. Send me to a place where I can learn about Indians who are from Oklahoma."

He responded, "Well, you know what? I really don't know." I said, "You know 61:00what? Everyone I pretty much ask has that same response. Their first response is, 'Well, we have an Indian on the capitol,' before I can even say, 'Don't tell me about that. Send me to a place I can learn about Indians.' You really can't because there's really not too many places."

He goes, "We're building a cultural center." I said, "No, from what I understand it's a visitors center. I could sit at home and learn more about the state of Oklahoma than me coming here and going to that museum. No offense, but it's just a waste of time and money. You really couldn't send me to a place, could you?" He goes, "No." I said, "Well, I could, only because I'm from there and my tribe is from there. I could send you out to southwest Oklahoma, Cheyenne, over by Battle of Washita. That's a hell of an educational place. You can learn a lot 62:00about that." He just kind of shook it off, but I said, "I still respect you. I think you've done well for the state." Also said, "I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass. I really like you." My girlfriend was standing there, and she goes, "Yes, he doesn't really say that too often, but if he's saying that, he really likes you." (Laughter)

His security guy came over, and he had a big laugh about that. He even agreed with me. He goes, "You're right. There isn't." The Governor also said, "Well, do you know how many other caucuses come to me and ask me? I have the black caucus, the Asian caucus and them, all ask me for--" I go, "But, yes, the Indians were there first. Why aren't they represented? I'm not going to bug you with that. You've got your own problems, but it was nice meeting you." His security guy 63:00goes, "You're right. I never really thought about that. When you asked him that question, I was off to the side thinking about, 'What would I say to somebody?'"

I said, "Well, yes. Dude, if you go to our own state capitol and you look, there's always a painting or a description of them signing something away. It's always the history they want you to see. 'Oh, they're good little Indians. That's in the past. Now here's the future. We're big oil.'" Oklahomans really grasp to The Grapes of Wrath, that they came from dirt and nothing and "we made something." The other part of the before-statehood stuff, hell, they fucked up. They messed up. They had their chance, type of thing.

Like I said, there are things that I'd like to do, but you've got to have a good tact about it because you don't want to step on too many toes, especially with 64:00the way art operates here in Oklahoma. If you're stepping on one toe, you're stepping on four or five other toes. It's just sad to know that there's so much great art from Oklahoma and so many people wanting to tell so many different stories, but yet they tie their own hands because they don't want to basically piss off anybody.

Little Thunder: When you are getting ready to do a project, what is your creative process?

Learned: Well, for example, with this piece behind me, that's going to the Bartlesville Mozart Music Festival. It's going to be next year's poster. Still working on it. It'll be done here in the next few weeks.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful.

Learned: I'm usually kind of--I usually give myself a theme. Not only that, but I want to give myself something I can get somebody that's going to look at my work to think about. Sometimes you don't even have to think about it, but I'd really like them to think about what they're really looking at, not just the bright colors and everything but the overall hidden punch behind it. With this, they'd asked me, Mozart Music Festival. I'm thinking to myself, "Okay, well, Plains Indians, drums, flute, singing, and how can I bring that up to date?" Well, with the contemporary dancing and the traditional dance and the fancy dancers.

I just kind of combined the old element with the new, and it's called The Rhythm of Life because everything has a rhythm. Like I said, it goes back to what my 66:00mom and dad always would say: You got to know where you come from to know where you're going. That cycle is always there. No matter if you don't like it or not, it's going to be there. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How important is preliminary sketching to your work?

Learned: It's just a basic, kind of a little guideline to go, "Here, this is what it's going to look like," but over a course of a painting, it might change three or four times. Even when I'm done, I'll look at it a few years later going, "Man, I wish I could go back on that and paint it a little different." (Laughter) The preliminary sketching is just a guideline to keep me in bounds on what it's going to kind of look like in the beginning.

Little Thunder: Do you keep a notebook of ideas or sketches?

Learned: They're all up here. (Gestures) They're all up there because being 67:00dyslexic, it'd be all misspelled and everything else, so why even bother writing it down? (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What kinds of research do you do for your paintings?

Learned: I do a lot of Internet research, look through books, talk to people, and, if I can, try to actually see some of the type of regalia, first-hand, to kind of get an idea of some of the texture and some of the color schemes. There's a lot because like my father, he would say is that, "Artists, no matter what you're doing, if you're going to paint people, especially Indians, Native Americans, Plains Indians, whatnot, you want to be historically correct. You're a historian of that time." And you're going to say, "Well, you paint in bright 68:00colors. How are you getting all that stuff?" Well, what I'm doing is I'm taking the overall symbol of the Plains Indian, jazzing him up by using these different colors but yet still keeping that undertone theme of what it was like for that person.

It's like we were at--oh, where were we? I went with my father to Loveland, Colorado, to a show up there because he was a sculptor. They had a sculpture of Little Raven, and my dad and I looked at that going, "It looks nothing like Little Raven." The lady goes, "Why is that? I'm the artist." We're like, "Well, that's fine, but we're distant relatives of Little Raven, and Little Raven never wore that type of regalia. Those are not his colors. In the position and what you had him doing," (she had him sitting there, holding a gourd, pouring water 69:00out of it because it was a water fountain piece) "he would've never done anything like that. They way you had his hair and everything is totally wrong."

When you're depicting somebody of historical value, you don't diminish him. You don't see me painting a handlebar mustache on Abraham Lincoln. I understand there is artistic license, but when you're depicting this person as historically correct, no, it's not.

We had told the director of the show what this lady had done, and he'd even asked her, going, "Did you do any research? Do you know? These people are saying they're related to him." She basically admitted, "No, I didn't." So he literally had her put a blanket over the piece--

Little Thunder: Wow!

Learned: --and said, "You're not to sell that, not to show it to anybody." That was nice. It was nice to know that somebody had some integrity. When you paint, 70:00you're basically a historian of your time, of your generation, no matter if it's political or satire or whatnot. You're telling your story, and you want to tell it the way you want to tell it.

Little Thunder: How do you feel about--well, what's your creative routine, first? Are there a certain number of days that you work? You also work with this co-op gallery, so let's talk about both things, maybe. What is your involvement with the co-op gallery?

Learned: Oh, with the co-op gallery, it just gives me time to paint bigger pieces. Right now, I'm in the process of building a studio.

Little Thunder: For space.

Learned: Bigger space, plus it's fun. It's always nice to come up here and look at the different works from the different artists because, like I said, it kind 71:00of reminds me of when I was in college, having a college studio. When you go in there, you smell the paint, you get that feel, and to look around and seeing what other people are doing, it's almost like getting ready for a critique or something. It kind of gets the blood going again, so it's been kind of nice being up here.

Little Thunder: And then they show your work, and you also put in some hours helping everybody else?

Learned: Oh, no. I just come up here to paint when they need somebody to come up.

Little Thunder: Oh, okay. So you don't watch the gallery for them at all?

Learned: No, I'll watch it for them the days that somebody can't work. I'll come in--

Little Thunder: I see. I got you.

Learned: --but when I'm up here, I'm painting.

Little Thunder: Have you ever inadvertently had to make a sale because--. (Laughter)

Learned: I've had a few people who have ended up walking out with one of my pieces. (Laughter) It's not that I was pushing on them, but I just showed them what I've done. Yet, when you walk in and you see an artist painting, it's like 72:00inviting to where you just want to see it, and to see him finish it up and you saw the process of what he did from somewhat beginning to end, it just feels like, "Hey, I'm a part of that." You want to take it with you. But I've had a few incidences where they left with one of mine. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Some of the tribes are really pushing their tribal artists right now. I don't know if you have any comments on that. Do you think the C and As [Cheyenne Arapahos] are moving forward in terms of promoting their artists?

Learned: No, they're so caught up with the inner struggle of who's the Governor this week that they don't have time for that. As for these other tribes pushing 73:00their artists, that's fine. It's fine. The deal is, the majority of those tribes that you're referring to, hate to say it, but they paint Plains Indians and they're not Plains Indians. They're really not.

That's the other thing. I was talking to a few artists when I was out in Santa Fe, and we were talking. They're Plains Indians like myself. They're Comanche, Kiowa. I'm not going to give you all the ins and outs, but we were sitting around talking, and they noticed that a lot of these other tribes depict our tribes and try to pass it off on themselves. They asked me, "What do you think about that?" I said, "Well, that's fine. It's promotion of us, but the problem is we've got to let people know that's who we are." When people come up and tell 74:00me that they're Indian, I ask them, "What is your tribe? Where are they from? What do they do?" The majority of them really don't know.

It goes back to when I went to Florida. I had this old guy--he had to be about, I'd say seventy, seventy-five, if that. I was shocked. He asked me, he goes, "So you're Indian." I said, "Yes." He goes, "Well, what tribe?" I go, "I'm Cheyenne Arapaho." He goes, "I've never heard of them. I'm Florida Seminole." He was a white guy, but he'd only heard of Florida Seminole. These other tribes never-- So I said, "Did you even have a TV growing up? Did you go to movies?" (Laughter) There's a lot of other tribes other than the Florida--

Cheyenne Autumn. (Laughter)

Yes. He goes, "No. Where are they from?" I said, "Well, they're Plains Indians. 75:00They're nomadic, so they travel around, but right now we have a headquarters out in Concho, Oklahoma. The Indians were out there." I'm not kidding you, this guy had literally--I don't think he ever left the city or the state of Florida. You'd be shocked on how many people I've ever met in my life who actually think that way, that their Indians are the only Indians that ever existed. If I had a dollar for every time I heard, "I'm Cherokee, and my grandmother was an Indian princess--" I mean, that lady got around. (Laughter) She got around a lot, and everyone's related to her.

Little Thunder: It's kind of been a tough market since the crash, I guess. I'm wondering about the strategies that you've developed for adapting.

Learned: The way I've adapted is that I've gone miniature, gone smaller pieces, 76:00things that are affordable because, with me, I only do one-of-a-kind originals. I don't do prints. I don't do photographs of the work and reproduce it or any of that. The only time I ever do posters, if I'm doing it for a cause that I believe in. Like I did one for the Oklahoma Health Sciences Center of child abuse [Center on Child Abuse and Neglect]. Did their posters. I've done one for literacy, done one for American Indian Diabetes, things I believe in, things I'd like to put my brand on. As far as changing with the times and changing with the economical situation we have now, I've just done a lot of little smaller pieces, little sketches, little things that are affordable.

I'll give you this story. I was with my brother. It was the first time I ever went out to Arizona. Like I say, I do a lot of Plains Indians stuff. Well, we did this show out in Litchfield Park, and this lady walked by. She was pushing her cart. At the time, I did a lot of charcoal and pencil drawings. I was just starting out. She walked by a couple times, pushing her cart, and she'd look. One time she came back, and she sat there and just kept looking. I said, "Ma'am, is there anything I can help you with?" She goes, "No, sir. I was just admiring your work. You do beautiful work. That piece right there reminds me of what I 78:00used to look like," and she broke down and started crying. I turned around, took it off, handed it to her, stuck it in her cart. She goes, "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, it's yours now." She goes, "Oh, I don't have any money to pay you or anything." I said, "No, your words were payment enough. It's yours. What you said let me know that I'm on the right track."

So she left. She came back about, oh, I'd say about an hour later, and she was trying to write me a check. She gave my brother and I a can of Coke and a bowl of chili. Soon as she left, we went to that bank, cashed that check. No, I'm just kidding! (Laughter) No, but she tried to write me a check, and I just told 79:00her, I said, "No, ma'am. Your words were payment enough." She goes, "Okay."

Then there was an artist that was there at the very end. His name was Cliff Beck. He came over to me, and he goes, "I saw what you did. I like that. Come over and sit down with me." So I sit down with him. He said, "I really like your work. How old are you?" We got to talking, and by the end of the conversation I traded him a small--for one of his pieces, I gave him one of my pieces. It was a pretty-good-sized piece at the time.

I talked to him off and on for the next year and a half, and he later passed away. His wife told me, "He only had one other artist that he hung in his 80:00studio. That was your piece. I don't know what you did, but he always thought highly of you." He always asked if I'd called or whatnot. They even wanted me to be a pallbearer at his funeral. I'd only known him for at least a year and a half, but he was a hell of a guy. Like I said, he was one of the first big-time artists that I'd ever met when I started out.

Little Thunder: Yes, very good artist, and what a compliment. When you look back on your career so far, what do you think has been a kind of fork-in-the-road moment for you where you could've maybe gone a different direction but you went--

Learned: That was right when my mom passed away. I should've been more 81:00productive. Again, I was young, better looking than I am now, if you can believe that, (Laughter) and just chasing the wrong roads at the time. When my mom passed away, it just kind of killed my creativity and drive and everything. I was lost for a few years before I finally woke up. When I did, I just said, "Screw it. I'm just going to plug at it."

Little Thunder: What has been one of the highlights of your career so far?

Learned: Oh, man. I'm trying to think. Well, I'd have to say doing a piece for Gale Sayers because, like I say, I'm a big KU fan, love KU football, which 82:00lately hasn't been loving me very well. (Laughter) Doing a piece for somebody that, growing up, you watched on TV, NFL films, and all that other stuff, then flying up to Chicago and meeting in person and handing him a piece that you did that he's going to hang in his home. I've done paintings for other celebrities and everything, but out of like a big thing, that was probably the coolest.

Little Thunder: That's very cool. Now, did KU--who sponsored that?

Learned: The Kansas alumni had purchased a piece from me to give to him. That was cool. They wanted to do something special for him because he went to school there, he'd taught there. He'd done so much for the university that they wanted 83:00to give him a thank you, so they had contacted me. The other thing, like I said, it was a highlight. There's so many of them. That's one that really sticks out.

Another one was I did a piece for the alumni magazine of Chester Nez, who was the last Native American code talker. He was on the cover. I did the piece that sat on the cover of the magazine, and he'd gone to KU. He'd also gone to Haskell.

Now that I'm thinking about it, the biggest thing was probably right when I first started out. I did a piece for the Smithsonian Institute. It was a portrait of my mother when she was a little girl. That was by far the biggest, right off the bat. That was pretty big.

Little Thunder: They had been in touch with you. Did you take that piece out? Did they buy the painting from you? I'm just wondering how that worked.

Learned: The way it worked out was when my mother was a chairperson, she introduced me to Rick West, Jr. She had said, "He's the head of the Smithsonian Indian wing that they're eventually going to build," because at that time it was just still a thought, I guess. When she retired as a chairperson, we had ran into him at some Cowboy Hall of Fame function. I think I donated a piece or something, and he was there. She goes, "Well, I'll talk to him again, re-introduce you." He came up, and he goes, "I've seen some of your work. I like it. Let me know when you got a piece that you feel is good, and we'll take a look at it." I said, "All right."

Mom came down sick, and I called him and let him know. I said, "Hey, I did a portrait of my mom when she was a little girl, and I think right now it's probably one of my best pieces." He said, "Well, when you come up to DC we'll look at it." Went up to DC. They looked at it, and they said, "We'd like to have that." At the time, they didn't buy it. It was a donation from my mom.

I came back. I had to get it appraised. There's so many freaking loop holes you had to jump through. It was like, well, it was about a two-year process. It went to New York because they accepted it. Then Mom, again, came down sick, and she 86:00didn't have too much longer, so I had them send the painting back. It hung in her room, and when she passed away, we had it boxed up and shipped it back to New York. But prior to it being shipped, Mom wrote in her own handwriting what the painting depicted, so that's with the painting. They ended up getting that from me, and that was a pretty big honor.

Little Thunder: Is there anything you'd like to add before we take a look at your work, or anything we forgot to talk about?

Learned: No, I can't really think of anything. We've pretty much kind of hit it all. Really, I just can't think of anything right now.

Little Thunder: Well, let's take a look at your painting, here. Okay, this is 87:00the Bartlesville piece, Rhythm of Life. You sort of talked about it a little bit, but anything else you'd like to address?

Learned: Oh, I was just going to come back. The way I paint is that I'll sketch it out so I've got a preliminary of where things are going to kind of go, and as the course of painting it, it evolves and changes. What I was going to come back and do was come back and do some detail on the faces, start to bring out the characteristics in the face. These guys are playing drums. The guy in the middle is singing. Then off in the back is modern day. You've got the fancy dancers. You've got the shawl dance going on over here. But in the foreground you've got the past meeting the present. It's a rhythm of color, just a lot of explosion 88:00going on.

Little Thunder: Right. That's going to be wonderful. Your signature, I didn't get to ask you how you evolved that.

Learned: My signature goes back to my mom. She goes, "When you sign your work you should sign it with your Indian name." The way I had gotten my Indian name was we'd gone up to my Aunt Imogene. We went out to Canton, Mom and I. Imogene, she asked me, she goes, "What do you do?" I said, "Well, I paint and draw and stuff." She said, "I know, but what are the things that you like to paint or whatnot?" I said, "I really like buffalo. I really love Mom's maiden name, which was Howling Buffalo."

So, what she did is she did a play on words, and she called me Buffalo Bull Howling. And so Mom said, "When you sign your work, you should put your Indian name. I want you to sign Arapaho." I go, "Why is that?" She goes, "Well, because there's tons of Cheyenne artists. I am both Cheyenne and Arapaho with some Sioux." She goes, "I want you to sign in Arapaho because there's not too many Arapahos that paint. They should be proud of having an artist, also." So out of respect for my mom, I sign it with Arapaho, and that's the story on my signature. I sign it Buffalo Bull Howling, but I sign it in Cheyenne, which is Haa Naa Jaa Ne-Doa and in Arapaho and then the year that I did the piece.

Little Thunder: That's great. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Brent.

Learned: Oh, you're welcome. If you have any other questions, just feel free to ask.

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