Oral history interview with Linda Greever

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is October 2, 2012, and I'm interviewing Linda Greever on behalf of the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. Linda, you're the longtime owner of The [Tulsa Indian] Art Market, one of the first Native fine art galleries in the state, and you've continued to handle some of Oklahoma's best-known artists. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Greever: I'm happy to do it. It's a pleasure.

Little Thunder: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

Greever: I was born in Winfield, Kansas, and grew up on a farm fifteen miles from town. Went to a one-room schoolhouse. It's been a long time ago.

Little Thunder: Your mother and dad were both in farming?

Greever: Right. My mother was a housewife and helped my dad. He was in World War II, and after that he returned to the farm, and they farmed. My dad's still on 1:00the farm.

Little Thunder: What are some of your earliest memories of seeing art?

Greever: Well, I went to this little schoolhouse, and the art teacher there, that had been her first job, to teach in this school. It had been much larger, but there had been an oil boom in that area, and the oil field camps, there were lots of kids. Like, there were seventeen in my first-grade class, and by the time I got to the fourth grade, there were only ten children in the entire eight grades. So we were just kind of like a small family, but we had an art teacher that came and spent a half a day a week with us. I always had art from the time I started to school. She was a really wonderful teacher, and she felt like she had ties there, so she worked with us.

Little Thunder: Did you continue drawing on your own at home?

Greever: I did, but I'm not really an artist. I can paint, but I'm not good at making up things out of my mind. I can copy things, but I'm not an artist.

Little Thunder: How about anybody in your extended family? Any artists in your extended family?

Greever: Not any professional artists. I have an uncle that's a doctor that has painted always and still does but not professionally.

Little Thunder: How about in high school, any exposure to art there?

Greever: Well, I did take some classes, but actually they were so much less than what I'd had before, that they weren't very interesting to me because we started out in the first grade with crayons and drawing, then you went to watercolors in the third and fourth grade, then charcoal pastel in the fifth grade, and then 3:00oils through the next three years. We had a pretty good background.

Little Thunder: That's a wonderful knowledge, basic knowledge, of the different media. How about college, what were your interests in college?

Greever: I was a library science major, so it didn't really have anything to do with my art background. Then I got married and had three children and really didn't pursue--I did take some classes when they were small, but I really didn't do anything with art during those twenty--

Little Thunder: You took some art classes when they were small. Was this here in Tulsa?

Greever: In Tulsa, yes.

Little Thunder: At Philbrook?

Greever: No, they were at Rathbone's Flair Flowers. They had classes.

Little Thunder: Interesting. (Laughs) So what was your first exposure to Native cultures?

Greever: Well, actually, my cousins were Native American. I didn't ever realize it because there was never anything said about race in my family. It was just you were who you were. Then when I moved to Oklahoma, there was a lot more Native American things that went on. After I bought the art gallery, I wanted to be able to handle the best of the best, and the thing that we could get the very best of here was Native American art. So that's what I decided to specialize in, and that's how I've gotten as well acquainted with Native American people in art as I have.

Little Thunder: You initially purchased, as I understand, the gallery business from another owner.

Greever: It was called The Art Market, and it had been in business six months. 5:00The people that started it were employees of Sears, and their wives had started the gallery. It was imported oil paintings. Why I did this, I don't know. It wasn't the best idea because the people that were interested in art came in, new gallery, and that's what it was. The over-your-sofa type of painting. We stretched hundreds of oil paintings, but that's not what I wanted to do.

Little Thunder: So mainly European artists.

Greever: They were all starving-artist types of paintings. Yes, they were. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I understand you made the acquaintance of Ben Harjo and Robby McMurtry pretty early on while you were selling the European--

Greever: I did. Actually, the first Native American artist that really talked to 6:00me about getting started was E. G. Thompson. I met him at the Children's Medical Center show that they had every year at the fairgrounds. He started coming in, and he helped me organize my first art show, which there were four artists. It was him, Ben Harjo, David Williams, and David Stevens. That was the first show that I had.

Little Thunder: Were you collecting a bit of Native art, too, before you--

Greever: I had collected before then. Not a great deal, mostly baskets. I had some really nice, older Cherokee baskets by people like Ella Mae Blackbear and some of the older artists. That's what got me interested to begin with.

Little Thunder: So what was that first art show like? And this is 1976, when you opened?

Greever: Seventy-four, I believe. You know, it wasn't David Stevens. It was Robert Annesley was the fourth artist. Then about that time is when I met Robby McMurtry and several others. I've found through the years that other Native American artists are very supportive when we have shows, and several came to the showing. I got to know them from that and developed working relationships with them.

Little Thunder: Was the turnout good on the part of the public?

Greever: It was pretty good, yes.

Little Thunder: You had advertised?

Greever: I had done newspaper and direct mail and, yes, I had advertised. Radio, I think.

Little Thunder: So your children were still fairly young, right?

Greever: I purchased the gallery when my youngest child started to kindergarten.

Little Thunder: How did you manage to run a business and-- (Laughs)

Greever: Well, it wasn't always easy. (Laughter) They grew up in the gallery. I'm always amazed at how many--because when there's an art show or something, why, I'm busy, and the artists spent a lot of time with my children. I really didn't realize how much time and how many stories they shared. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Yes, I know many of them become good friends with the children, as well. Who were some of the artists who got their start in your gallery, that really hadn't been showing much other places?

Greever: Well, like Ben Harjo, Kathy Henderson, Robby McMurtry. I'm trying to 9:00think. Merlin Little Thunder, he told me that I bought his first painting when he came to Tulsa. I didn't realize that. Bill Rabbit, he came to me and asked if he could be in my show, and I said, "Well, I guess it'll be all right." (Laughter) That was in 1980.

He's said many times since then that he was so shocked when he got there. He had just started, and all the other artists were well-known because in the late '70s and early '80s, we had some really fantastic shows. We would paper the front windows on the gallery and close for, like, two or three days before an opening, and then people would line up in the parking lot waiting to get in. Times have changed a lot. But there were some wonderful artists. I worked a lot with people 10:00like Woody Crumbo, Solomon McCombs.

Little Thunder: Did they come into the gallery, or did you meet them at other shows?

Greever: They came to the gallery. They came to the gallery a lot. In fact, my oldest daughter had thought about doing her doctoral thesis on Woody Crumbo. The kids grew up with these people. They were very important.

Little Thunder: I'm not sure that the habit of having shows was really particularly that well established, having receptions, having shows. It was kind of a new territory, wasn't it?

Greever: It was new territory, and when we first started having shows, there really weren't any other shows around. I mean, the Philbrook Annual was wonderful, but that was about the only Native American show around. Then when 11:00the economy started going down in the late '70s, every little organization had Native American art shows. Then our shows became less special because people were used to them, and they have gotten less and less viable for the gallery.

Little Thunder: But in those early days, like you say, when there were only the competition shows and that was sort of the only game in town and you were buying from the artists, were you planning multiple shows to help the artists out?

Greever: I did. At that time, I was having four shows a year, which was a lot. Like I said, we'd have real large crowds of people, and it was always fun and entertaining. I'd have as many as thirty-five artists at a show sometimes.

Little Thunder: Wow. In addition to artists coming into the gallery, did you 12:00also visit other shows and find artists or recruit artists a bit?

Greever: I really didn't do--I did go to other shows because I was interested in meeting people, but mostly the artists came to me. I mean, it seems to get around if there's a gallery that handles Native American art, especially one that buys. (Laughs) There've been a lot of galleries in town, but I guess I'm stubborn. I've stuck to it longer.

Little Thunder: They've come and gone, and you've endured. (Laughs) Did you go to any of the Philbrook annual shows?

Greever: I sure did. I did go to the Philbrook Annual. In fact, I used to volunteer. I worked with the reject room. (Laughs) They used to have a room at 13:00Philbrook that when they had their show, when the artists sent their work in or brought it in, there was a place on their paper to check. If they were juried out, did they want their artwork to be for sale in the reject room.

It was a wonderful thing. A lot of artwork was sold out of that reject room. I've always wondered why other museums and other places didn't do that because artists that didn't quite make the grade for the show still had an opportunity to sell. Of course, that increased the crowds and was real helpful.

Little Thunder: So it was partly about making the grade, but was part of it if they were doing something that was sort of outside the boundaries of what the annual was open to at that time, or no?

Greever: Well, the Annual really was pretty widespread. I mean, originally, back 14:00in the early days, Indian art was pretty much flat style. That was pretty much it, but as it progressed, Philbrook progressed, also, and their show was remarkable. It was the best-known Native American art show in the country for many years and always made money for the museum. They had a different curator who just decided he didn't want to do it anymore, and they quit having an invitational show at that point.

Little Thunder: Did that impact the gallery, do you think?

Greever: Not that much, no. People that are interested that are collectors will find you. I'm still surprised after thirty-seven years in the business that 15:00every single day, someone comes in and says, "I didn't know you were here." We've advertised a lot and word of mouth. You would think everybody in Tulsa would know we were here, but they don't.

Little Thunder: Do you remember what was going on at Gilcrease at all during the '70s, maybe early '80s?

Greever: They had very little interest in Native American art at that time.

Little Thunder: Once the city had acquired the [collection], which they had had since the '50s.

Greever: Right. They didn't have Native American art shows or anything like that. They just really didn't have any interest in it at that time. Since then, they've developed a lot more of an interest and have acquired some wonderful things.

Little Thunder: In terms of some of those early artists, David Williams and Woody Crumbo, are there a couple of artists who really stand out in terms of 16:00having brought a lot of information to you about Native art, the history of Native art, etcetera?

Greever: Well, Woody Crumbo was a major influence because at that time he was the best-known Native American artist in the world. Part of it was his marketing strategies. Still, to this day, we get inquiries from the Internet every week, wanting to know values and things on Woody Crumbo's silk screens. He was amazing, and he was so interesting to talk to because he knew so many things. He had beliefs that were different than mine, but he taught me a lot of things.

Little Thunder: What were some of the marketing strategies that were so successful?

Greever: Well, actually, he was kind of a genius. He quit painting right around 17:001950 and did not paint again until, like, two or three years before he died. The reason he stopped was he said there were two ways to become famous. One was to die, and the other was to quit painting. So in order to get his artwork to appreciate in value, he quit painting, but he contacted libraries, museums, universities. He built these wooden cases, and he had sets of silk screens and sets of etchings that he would send out.

He also had some offset reproductions. He would pack these cases up with one of each and send them out to wherever it was that he wanted to have a show. They would show his work for a month to two months, and then whatever was left, 18:00they'd pack back in the case and send him the money and pay him. He'd fill the case up again and send it out. People all over the country knew Woody Crumbo's work.

He had this wonderful silk screen studio out in New Mexico, even though he was an Oklahoma artist and was from here. They did the best silk screening of any place because at that time, it wasn't photo silk screening. It was hand-cut screens, and they were really exceptional.

Little Thunder: Thanks for sharing that. I had not heard that. I know that you dealt with Willard Stone quite a bit.

Greever: I did.

Little Thunder: Can you describe how you first encountered his work?

Greever: I guess probably through the Philbrook show, and then he came to see me and brought some of his work. I sold a lot of his work through the years. One of 19:00the first things that I remember selling were--he carved, I guess, the butts of the gun. I don't know what they're called. But anyway, he carved a number of those that I sold to different people for their guns, and then, of course, regular sculptures. He was delightful to work with.

I remember being at his house the day that they shot the President. They tried to assassinate Reagan, wasn't it, at that point? It looks like I could remember. I was there that day, and Willard was so upset about it. We all went in and watched television and watched all the goings on for several hours. It was 20:00something to see how--he was very patriotic but not necessarily political. He supported whoever was in office, like we all should. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How did your gallery business change from the '70s to the end of the '80s?

Greever: Well, things had slowed down a lot. There were some real, real close years that we struggled, but we've always managed to scrape by. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Did the artists also change?

Greever: Yes, I would say they have. There are very, very few flat-style artists anymore. Most of the artwork is European style. The flat style took so much 21:00time, and people didn't understand it a lot. I'd have someone come in and look at a beautiful piece of flat-style work and say, "I could do that," or, "My kid could do that in the third grade." They had no idea how difficult it was to do the color against color, no blending, to achieve the results.

You hardly find any of that anymore. I'm always real excited when I find a nice piece of flat-style art. The other thing is that back when I first started, it wasn't unusual for me to have things with house paint and oil, and then it turned more into acrylic and gouache. The early painters mostly used tempera. 22:00Now, they mostly use acrylic. It's a lot easier to use than the tempera was to achieve the same results.

Little Thunder: You've been asked to judge art shows, also. What are some of the challenges of being a judge?

Greever: Well, the fact that I'm not Native, I get a lot of criticism for that, not necessarily from the artists but from people saying, "Well, what does she know?" And I don't always know. I try to judge on the quality of the work and the historical accuracy of the pieces. I don't hesitate to ask people that know the history because I think that's real important to be sure the regalia is correct and the time period's correct and that sort of thing because nobody knows everything.

Little Thunder: Do you prefer to judge by yourself or in committee?

Greever: Oh, I like to do it with other people. Then you have a chance to discuss things. Like just recently, I judged (I've had several shows this year) at Five Tribes Museum. The person that won the People's Choice award was a little upset because as judges, we didn't give him an award. The reason we didn't is because his work was not Five Tribes. When I judge a show, I want to see that the artist has worked toward that show, they haven't just stuck something in there because they had it and wanted to enter a show, and you can tell.

Little Thunder: A lot of galleries can have a visual art focus or a sculpture 24:00focus. It seems to me, you've always dealt sculpture from the beginning.

Greever: Well, not really because I've always thought we were more paintings. I've always done both. Parker Boyiddle was a wonderful addition to our gallery, and Will Wilson, and the Crowles brothers [Junior and Sonny]. I've dealt with a lot of sculptors, too.

Little Thunder: The Chaddlesones.

Greever: The Chaddlesones, oh yes. Sherman paints, mostly, now. Allie does the sculpture. So many of the artists are gone that I've worked with, like for example, Parker Boyiddle, Bill Rabbit, Robby McMutry, Woody Crumbo.

Little Thunder: What was one of your most rewarding or unusual relationships with a collector?

Greever: Oh, my. My friends have all developed mostly through the gallery because that's where I'm at all the time. I've done a lot of trips with collectors.

Little Thunder: To look at art?

Greever: Well, yes, partially to look at art but also just because we'd say, "It would be fun to go to Santa Fe," or we'd do that kind of thing. I've also done those things with artists.

Little Thunder: Yes, I know that's been a big part of your life. In 1990, the Indian Arts and Crafts Act was passed, and I'm wondering what impact that had on the Native art scene and your gallery.

Greever: It had a huge impact. At that point, that was when we really slowed down as far as sales because there was so much bad publicity, that people were 26:00saying they were Native when they weren't Native, and people were afraid to buy things because people didn't have their cards and that sort of thing. We lost a number of very good artists through that because there were some that, even though they were raised Native and had Native relatives and all this, they didn't have their cards and they couldn't prove it.

The Arts and Crafts Board and the Attorney General's office were really on top of that and watched for everything. The head of the Arts and Crafts Board came to my gallery and went through, and they passed me. I passed with flying colors. (Laughter) In fact, when the lady got back, she ordered a painting from me. I thought, "Well, hey. That's nice." (Laughter) Also, I did go and speak in front 27:00of Congress when they were working on that bill. That was an interesting--

Little Thunder: Did you go with some Native artists, too?

Greever: Well, they held the hearings in Oklahoma City, and I went to Oklahoma City and spoke in front of the Congress, which was kind of scary. (Laughter) I was happy that they asked me.

Little Thunder: What did you say?

Greever: Well, I said that I felt like the bill and the new law had kind of split the industry and that we needed to pull together and get back. While I knew the purpose of the bill was to do away with the things that were coming from China and Japan and other countries, what it did in Oklahoma was divided the artists, and it made it very difficult for a lot of people.

Little Thunder: When did you establish your gallery in Muskogee, and what led you to open another gallery there?

Greever: Well, I think it's been about--I know it's been twelve years. I go by the age of my grandchildren, and I have one that was two at the time. (Laughter) The reason I opened it is because Muskogee had always been so active in Native American art. There were so many good artists from that area and from that region. The only frame shop in town was closing, and so the lady that had that frame shop talked to me about it and suggested that I open.

There was a building right across the street from where she was, and so I went ahead--she was losing her lease. They were tearing down the building; that's why she was quitting. So I leased that and was there. I've made a move in Muskogee. I'm in a different location, but I'm still there twelve years later. We do all 29:00of our framing there because we have so much more room.

Little Thunder: You've also spent a lot of time appraising art in the last decade or so. How has your appraising impacted your art business?

Greever: Well, the appraisals have supported the art gallery a lot of times (Laughter) because there are always appraisals to be done. I do as many as time allows. In fact, I spent Sunday down here working on appraisals this week because there are not that many people that do it. I enjoy it if people will be patient until I can complete things. (Laughter) That's my only problem: There's 30:00not enough hours in the day.

Little Thunder: Do you continue to do the free appraisal day at the Gilcrease Museum?

Greever: They haven't had one for a long time. I did do that in the past and also at Philbrook and at the Jewish Museum [Sherwin Miller Museum of Jewish Art]. I've done a lot of those.

Little Thunder: What prompts you to volunteer your time?

Greever: Usually, somebody asks me. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Have you seen any interesting things?

Greever: Oh, I've seen a lot of interesting things. You hardly ever go to an appraisal without learning something and seeing something that you're interested in. This afternoon, I went, and the man had four very large, old Indian blankets, chiefs blankets, that you don't see very often. They were absolutely 31:00beautiful. I was excited.

Little Thunder: I've noticed that the secondary market seems to be booming these days. Why do you think that is?

Greever: Well, I think it's the economy because the people that had money still have money, and they tend to spend it more on the more expensive, not necessarily better quality but more collectible things. Used to be, we sold a lot of prints and framed prints, things like that. We hardly ever sell those anymore. We do sell the originals a lot more often than we do prints anymore. That's just a sign of the times because the people that used to spend two hundred dollars are spending it on their kids' lunches, not pictures.

We had a lady in this week that had been--she was in her golf clothes. She'd been playing golf, and she had been to Oklahoma City the day before, playing golf and everything. She looked around at artwork, and she said, well, her price range was more like forty dollars. It's hard to do something nice these days for forty dollars. It just showed, you know, it's wherever your interest is.

Little Thunder: I'm thinking, too, that a secondary market, pieces that have already been purchased and they're being put up for resale, shows that collections are changing hands.

Greever: It kind of goes on a rotating basis. As people die, their objects come for sale again, and a lot of times there are things I've sold three and four 33:00times through the years that are very, very nice pieces. Maybe the children can't afford to keep them, or they are not interested in them. People retire and want to clean out their offices. We get things back to sell again. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Have you noticed any other trends in the market today?

Greever: There's really nothing new under the sun. You get a new set of artists that think they're doing something brand new. Occasionally, there is something new, but most of the time if you really check into it, it's been done before. (Laughter) The quality is the most important thing, and the originality.

Little Thunder: Oklahoma Native artists have relied on galleries to purchase their work, and this purchase has made a real difference in whether or not artists could devote their time and energy to their art, but they're also risky for the gallery owner. How do you decide what kinds of work to purchase? How do you choose one piece over another?

Greever: I primarily go by quality. I'll have to admit that I've bought some things because the people needed to sell. If I had the money, I felt like that was what I should do. I can't always buy, but when I can, I do. That's one of the main differences between Native American art and other types of art in the country. Most art galleries do have mostly consigned work and Native American 35:00artists because they've needed it to survive. The galleries normally buy Native American art.

Little Thunder: How important is it for you to know a lot of cultural information about the artwork?

Greever: It's pretty important. I always try to talk to the artists about it and know the stories behind the pieces. Sometimes it's hard to give all that information to your employees. Jerry [Watashe] that's here now is really good about that. He's Native, and mostly through the years, I've had Native employees that do, a lot of times, know more about it than I do.

Little Thunder: A number of times, you've had artists, too. What are the pluses 36:00and minuses of having an artist work part-time in the gallery?

Greever: Well, it depends on the artist. Some of them just want to sell their own work, and some of them don't ever even mention that they're an artist. Generally, it has worked out fine.

Little Thunder: How important is it for you to give feedback on the artist's work when it comes to style or technique?

Greever: I don't do a whole lot of that. I have to be really close to an artist before I will make any comments about their work, and then I don't do it very often because you're kind of walking on eggs when you do that. If I can look at a piece of art and realize, "Boy, there's something really wrong going on," I might say, "Is there a problem? What's happening with you that this isn't your 37:00usual quality?" But normally, if an artist brings in a piece, I ask them what their price is, and they tell me, and I say either yes or no. There's no dickering because that's a no-win situation. I can either afford it or think I can sell it, or I can't.

Little Thunder: I was wondering if you'd ever offered any advice or feedback about marketing and pricing, which is kind of tricky.

Greever: Well, I have to a certain extent. Mainly, I used to go to Bacone [University] and teach a class each semester to the students on how to market their work and how to show it to a gallery because that's something that's not normally taught.

An artist goes out to sell their work, and they don't have a clue, sometimes, 38:00how to go about it. It's real important to discuss with an artist how you expect things to be done. I asked an artist to leave the gallery last year because they were bringing things in and giving me the price because the artist always sets the price on the artwork. This happened to be an artist that was willing to consign. He was fairly new. I always tell them that if they want to have work in the gallery, they need to keep their prices level because if they take it out and sell it somewhere else, they should get paid for selling it just like I get paid for selling their work.

Well, this artist had two tickets on their pieces. They had a thing across the corner. On one side, they had the price that I had to sell it for, and on the other side, they had the price they were selling it on the street at the shows 39:00they'd been doing. I said, "Why would you do that?" They said, "Well, we were just trying to recycle." (Laughter) We can't do that. It's really important. It makes us look real bad, and we do work for our part.

Little Thunder: How long did you teach that class? That sounds like an interesting class.

Greever: At Bacone? Oh, I don't know. Ten years, probably. A long time.

Little Thunder: Each semester?

Greever: Yes. I'd just go one day each semester. I enjoyed it, and it was interesting.

Little Thunder: Did you acquire any artists that way, too?

Greever: I don't know that I ever did. I know one of the interesting things that I have to laugh about now (I didn't think it was funny at the time) was that 40:00Dick West was there. He wouldn't speak to me in English because I was a white woman in the Native American art field. (Laughs) It's funny now. I didn't think it was very funny then. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Who brought you in?

Greever: Ruthe [Blalock] Jones and Janet Smith. I was there through several of their art instructors.

Little Thunder: You've had a few health challenges since your [car] accident. Was that three years ago?

Greever: Yes.

Little Thunder: Someone else might've just said, "Forget it, throw in the towel." What has kept you going?

Greever: Hunger. (Laughter) No, I could qualify for disability, but I don't want 41:00to be disabled. I want to do everything I can. I love the business. I have a lot invested in it, and what would I do if I didn't have the--. Yes, I could stay home and watch television, but I did that while I was disabled there for a little while. That's not a lot of fun. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What are a couple of things that make your work worthwhile to you?

Greever: It is fun to go out or have people--people bring in interesting things every day. Some things I know nothing about, and I say, "I'm sorry. You'll have to go to Michael O'Shea [Gallery] or someone else." (Laughter) I get to see so many wonderful things. I really do love it, and the people are nice. People come 42:00in here mostly because they want to purchase, or they'll just come in to look around. People say, well, they like the atmosphere of the artwork. People are always welcome. I enjoy visiting with people, and that's why I have to work weekends because I spend too much time visiting with people. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: As you mentioned, there've been several galleries in Tulsa and Sapulpa. At one time there were, maybe, four. Is it more desirable, do you think, to have more galleries? Is there anything you miss about that?

Greever: I don't know whether it's more desirable or not. Competition is always good. The thing that has happened so many times and through the years is a 43:00gallery will come in and stay for a year to ten years, and then they go out of business and dump everything on the market. That really hurts business and hurts the artists and everyone connected with it because that messes with the value.

Little Thunder: Have you ever gone to auctions or things like that and tried to protect the artists' prices by buying things?

Greever: I have done some of that. I've bid things up sometimes. I don't go to auctions very often. I hardly ever get anything at an auction because if I bid on it, people think, "Oh, that must be worth something. She knows." So it's not any fun. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: We've also talked about how you purchase things, but once in a 44:00while, even though you accumulate a lot of inventory--and I think everybody does, and sometimes they're not always moving, but once in a while you'll sell a piece that you've sat on for a long time. Do you have any good stories about that?

Greever: I was telling somebody this week--they were looking at a very large [Stephen] Mopope painting, and it's just beautiful. I said, "Well, my price on that is firm because it's worth what's on it. I don't have a lot in it, so I can afford to sit on it." Because this young woman came in--this has been at least five or six years ago. She had worked in an office, and they were closing the office. Her boss had given her the opportunity to buy some artwork for very, 45:00very little money, so I bought several things from her and paid her reasonable prices.

She came in with this Mopope. It was out of the frame. It had fallen out of the frame. She said, "I'll take a hundred dollars for it," and I said, "Sold." I paid her the money, and then she said, "I want you to know I just paid a dollar for that." I said, "Well, lucky you!" The piece was worth ten thousand dollars.

I don't ever ask people to come down, but if somebody walks in and tells you, "I want a hundred dollars for this," how can you say no? (Laughter) You might feel guilty, but how can you? She was happy, and I never told her because, why? She was happy, and I was happy. If I have to live with that the rest of my life, I'm 46:00still happy. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: That's a great segue into my next question. Most gallery owners have a personal collection that they just don't want to part with. How important has it been to you to keep some of the pieces over the years?

Greever: It's been real important. Mostly, I have things that I've purchased that I have kept, and then I have a lot of gifts that people have given me that are really--I don't sell gifts. About a year ago, my house was broken into, and a number of things were stolen, a number of my paintings. I was able to retrieve most of them. I figured out who had stolen them, calling around. Part of them the police confiscated, and another gallery had bought a number of them. I 47:00bought them back from them, rather than cause hard feelings with another gallery. I was really happy to get those pieces back because they did mean a lot to me.

Little Thunder: You've had a pretty good relationship, I think, with some of the tribal museums around here, too. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Greever: I've mainly worked with the museums in this area, with the Cowboy Hall of Fame and Gilcrease and Philbrook and Five Tribes Museum and Tsalagi Museum.

Little Thunder: Is it both for when they're acquiring acquisitions and appraising?

Greever: Both. I've done a lot of appraisals for all of those museums, the Creek Council House, whenever they ask. I don't go to them very often because I think 48:00they have a lot of people coming to them.

Little Thunder: To market work.

Greever: Yes, and I don't want to interfere with the artists selling their own work. When I do sell to a museum, it's usually for deceased artists' work because they don't have the opportunity to find those other places.

Little Thunder: Are there any other things you'd like to talk about, something that we've forgotten to address about gallery business?

Greever: There are ups and downs. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: What would you say to somebody who was thinking about going into the business?

Greever: You really have to love it and be willing to put the work into it. I think a lot of people think there's really nothing to gallery work except just 49:00walking in and looking at beautiful things. There's a lot of elbow grease behind the gallery work, especially. Like I said, I do the appraisals and the framing to help the gallery. We do a lot of picture framing. I'm always glad to do those things, though, because I need a little release of working on hammering something or doing something once in a while. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Looking back, what's been one of the high points of your career so far?

Greever: I guess I've been in it so long that I do get some acknowledgment of the time that I've spent in it. So many times, people don't appreciate things, like the rugs I was looking at today. I said to the man, (they're in his office) 50:00I said, "Isn't it amazing how many people come in that have no idea?" He said, "Yes, but every now and then, someone comes in that really appreciates it." We talked about that because it is, it's great when people really enjoy what you do and what you're doing.

Little Thunder: How about a low point in your career so far?

Greever: Just when times are hard and the time of the Indian art law, when artists were so unhappy and pitting themselves against each other. They were all my friends, then it was hard. It was hard to tell people that did not have their cards and things that I really couldn't carry their work as much. Some of the 51:00artists, because they had shown for a long time, I was able to grandfather them in, but some of them, I couldn't. When I have a new artist, I like to spend time with them talking about their backgrounds and to know whether or not they really--just because they have the blood, doesn't mean they necessarily know their background, and that's what's really important.

Little Thunder: Know their culture.

Greever: Know their culture, yes.

Little Thunder: If you don't have anything else to add, we'll go ahead and take a look at a couple of pieces that you have in here.

Greever: That'll be fine. Thank you.

Little Thunder: What can you tell us about this piece?

Greever: This is a piece that Bill Rabbit did in 1980, and that was his grandfather who was sitting on the porch in front of the hills with a crystal in 52:00his hand. His grandfather would foresee things with the crystal. That's what the painting's all about, which I think is really neat.

He said that he can remember his grandfather sitting on the porch. That's a piece that I had at home because Bill quit doing that style shortly thereafter, and it was always my favorite style of his. It was so different from what anybody else did and what he became known for, to begin with.

Little Thunder: That's really wonderful.

Greever: This is a Parker Boyiddle painting, Mother Earth. He did a number of the Mother Earth paintings. Some of them were nudes, where he had the mountains and the hills and the valleys. In fact, the first time I met Parker, he was at an art show in Oklahoma City. He'd been invited to do the show, and when he got 53:00there, his Mother Earth painting was not hung. He asked them about it, and they said, "Well, it wasn't appropriate," because it had the nude female. He stayed through the show until the end of the evening, and then he packed up all of his work. I was sitting out in front of the building as he left and started talking to him, and we worked together the rest of the time until he died. That's how I first met Parker. He was carrying out his--.

While I worked with him, I sold a number--he was one of the few artists that really did the erotic Native American art, and we sold a lot of it to people. I was always surprised. It wasn't terribly obscene or anything. It was more erotic, and people did appreciate it. Actually, he has paintings and sculpture all over the world. He did most of the animals on the "Tree of Life" at 54:00Disneyworld, and he did the big sleeping bear that's the center of the Disney theme park in California. People recognize his work that don't know anything else about Native American art.

Little Thunder: How about this painting?

Greever: This is a Terry Saul painting. Terry is the only one of the Master Artists from Five Civilized Tribes that I really did not know. He died--he was the first one to pass away from that group. He was Choctaw and Chickasaw, and this was a painting that he did for a bank just north of Bartlesville. It hung in a bank building, and when the bank started going under, I bought this piece. It's a buffalo hunt piece, which is really a beautiful, large piece.

Terry was the art director at Bacone College for a number of years, and there've been a lot of really good artists that studied under Terry Saul. He turned out some really good students. I know Joan Brown has commented that he was a major influence in her art career.

I called the Choctaw tribe about this painting because it's so large and I think it would be so beautiful in one of their buildings. They told me that they didn't know him, but if he would like to submit some photographs, they'd be happy to have him in their summer shows. That was their art buyer. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: How about this piece?

Greever: This is a Brummett Echohawk piece. Brummett was Pawnee. He lived in Tulsa the last part of his life. He was a big war hero, and he liked to tell his stories about it. He did a lot of covers and backs for Saturday Evening Post and Look and Life. He was known all over the country, for sure, possibly the world, 56:00but people in Oklahoma really didn't know Brummett. He didn't market his work here.

Little Thunder: He sold mainly in New York and places like that.

Greever: He sold out of New York. He was delightful. I got to know him fairly well, and he was a funny, entertaining person. This particular piece is a dance, a Christmas dance. One of the interesting things about it is that they're having such a good time here. When I was researching this piece after I purchased it, because Brummett was dead by then, I found another painting that was probably two hours later of the same group of people in the same room. They were fighting, and the guns were going off. I thought that was so interesting. I wish I knew where it had been published.

Brummett did a lot of artwork for Leanin' Tree, the cards and the calendars and 57:00things that people have had in their homes all through the years, but he was best-known for his magazines.

Little Thunder: It's just a superb piece.

Greever: It is beautiful, isn't it?

Little Thunder: Well, thank you so much.

Greever: Thank you for coming. I appreciate you doing this, Julie.

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