Oral history interview with Les Berryhill

Little Thunder: My name is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Thursday, September 20, 2012, and I'm interviewing Les Berryhill as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Les' home in Edmond, Oklahoma. Les, you were Athletic Director at Rose State College in your pre-retirement life, but you began your bead art in the late '80s. Since then, your work has garnered a lot of attention and a number of important awards, and you're now working full-time on your art. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Berryhill: Well, thank you.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Berryhill: Yes, I was born in Talihina, Oklahoma, the Indian hospital there, which is no longer in operation. I've gone back a couple times to look at it, and that's where I was born. My mother's sister was a nurse there, so I was born in the Talihina Indian Hospital. I grew up in Coalgate, Oklahoma, through my 1:00sophomore year. Then my junior year, I moved to Atoka, about fifteen miles from Coalgate and went my junior and senior year at Atoka high school, and graduated from Atoka High School in 1962.

Little Thunder: What did your mom and dad do for a living?

Berryhill: My mother was a dietician there at the hospital in Atoka, did that for years until she retired. My father was a city employee in Coalgate and worked for the city until he retired.

Little Thunder: How about either set of grandparents? Did you have a relationship with them?

Berryhill: Yes, when I was quite young I lived with my grandmother, when I was about four, maybe five years old, and she raised me. We had two other older cousins that lived there, also. We were at Picket Prairie, which is near Sapulpa and Mounds. I have some very fond memories of growing up there. Of course, she spoke the Native language, and I still remember a few words that she would say 2:00to us.

Little Thunder: She spoke Euchee or Creek?

Berryhill: She spoke Euchee. Really enjoyed that. Then my mother married my stepfather. They came and got me when I was about five and a half, six years old. We moved to Coalgate, and I started the first grade in Coalgate, Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: So this grandma is your maternal grandma.

Berryhill: Yes, maternal grandmother.

Little Thunder: Were you brought up around the ceremonial grounds or church or both?

Berryhill: No, not really. I can't remember much about that. When we moved to Coalgate, did not follow the Native American history, culture too much. Got into sports and athletics and mostly focused on that. People have asked me about that in Coalgate, and I don't recall being a Native American in Coalgate. I was just another one of the boys there.

Little Thunder: Did any of your family or extended family bead?

Berryhill: No, no one that I remember did artwork, and not beadwork, for sure. Some of them may have drawn or did some painting, but I don't recall that at all. None of them did that, so I was not influenced at all by my family.

Little Thunder: So you're both Euchee and Muscogee Creek? Which influence was dominant?

Berryhill: Well, actually, I'm Euchee, and we're on the Creek rolls. The Euchees were brought here in the 1830s with the Creeks. There's a couple of neat stories about how the Euchee were adopted into the Creek family. We're on the Creek rolls, but we're Euchee and not actually Creek.

Little Thunder: When did you see your fist piece of Native art?

Berryhill: Well, I kind of remember when my son was young--he was born in 1970, and when he was young, we would go to Santa Fe to ski. He learned to ski in Santa Fe and Taos area. He was probably in his teens when we were out there, and probably in the '80s, mid-'80s, we went into Morning Star Gallery up on Canyon Road, which is a well-known gallery in Santa Fe.

They had a collection of Native American knife cases, beaded knife cases, that Native Americans from the late 1800s [made]. They had purchased that from San Francisco, and they had about forty. I just fell in love with them. I'd never seen them before, and I did collect old knives. I've always had old knives and a collection of old kitchen knives, butcher knives.

I looked at all of them, as I remember. As I picked up one and I looked at it, the least expensive one that I found was three thousand dollars at that time. 5:00That was quite expensive, and I thought, "Wow, couldn't afford one of those." I remember thinking, "I'll just go home and make my own." (Laughter) So I decided to go home and bought some bead books, talked with some other bead artists and other artists, and began to make knife cases.

My goal was to make twenty knife cases and put them on the back of the wall like I saw there in Morning Star and just be happy, and then my wife said, "Why don't you go to some art shows?" Of course, being naive, I said, "And do what?" She said, "Well, people will buy these. They'll love them! They're wonderful." I said, "Really?" She said, "Yes." So, I began to, about twenty years ago, get into art shows.

Little Thunder: Going back to your growing up years, you didn't get a chance to see any Oklahoma Indian painting?

Berryhill: Well, yes. I recall in Coalgate the post office there, and most of 6:00the post offices at that time, the WPA [Works Progress Administration] hired Native American artists to draw panels on the wall. There was an Acee Blue Eagle panel in the Coalgate post office. It was a family scene. They were out on the farm, and there were chickens, and the father and the mother and the children were standing around. That impressed me. I really enjoyed that. Acee Blue Eagle, of course, is a well-known famous artist. I recall that vividly and have been back several times and taken pictures of it since then.

Little Thunder: Did you do any sketching or drawing or painting when you were little?

Berryhill: No, I can't remember doing any sketching or artwork or drawing until I got to college. I did take one art class, just a drawing class, and really enjoyed that. I saw that I was a little bit good at doing it, and I've made some drawings since then. My wife keeps telling me I should go into painting or 7:00artwork, drawings, but I'm too busy in my beadwork now to learn another art form. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: So you really didn't have exposure to art or art classes in primary or secondary school that you remember?

Berryhill: No, not that I remember. Probably had some art classes, but I can't remember them.

Little Thunder: Is there any other kind of art experience outside of school that might've impacted you when you were younger?

Berryhill: No, I don't recall anything other than nature itself influencing you, how things are in nature. Of course, Native Americans are very spiritual and into nature. I think that influences a lot of people and probably influenced me a little bit, growing up in southeastern Oklahoma. We had a lot of trees and a lot of ponds and things like that.

Little Thunder: Let's talk a bit about your high school days and your interest 8:00in athletics.

Berryhill: Okay. I think I, from a very young age, was always pretty athletic. I think the coaches recognized that, (most of the coaches do) so I began to do sports in high school and junior high and did everything. I ran track, played baseball, football, basketball. Whatever the season was, I did it. Then when the season changed, I changed also. I think when I was a sophomore, I went to state in track.

Little Thunder: What was your event?

Berryhill: I ran the 440-yard race. Now it's the 400 meters. It was 440 yards at the time. Then we moved to Atoka, and they did not have track, so I quit running track. I high-jumped and did some things in high school at track meets, but 9:00Atoka didn't have track. They had baseball, so I started playing baseball. Of course, played football and basketball there at Atoka. Made All State my senior year as a leading scorer in football and had scholarship offers to University of Oklahoma in football.

Bud Wilkinson offered me a scholarship to play football, and then Mr. [Henry] Iba offered me a basketball scholarship to play basketball at Oklahoma State. Then when I went to Oklahoma State, after maybe about two years, the track coach there, Ralph Higgins, came to me. He'd seen me run in high school, I guess, and he wanted me to come out and run track for him at Oklahoma State, but after playing basketball for a season for Mr. Iba, we were pretty tired. We wanted to relax and rest a little bit. (Laughter) I told him I wasn't interested in that, but I ran intramural track and things like that.

Little Thunder: They would've let you do both sports if you were interested?

Berryhill: I think so, yes. Mr. Iba would've let us do two sports.

Little Thunder: Can you talk a little bit about arriving in Stillwater at Oklahoma State University from Coalgate? You'd been basically recruited to play basketball. Can you talk about your first experiences?

Berryhill: Yes. At that time, I had not traveled a great deal, and so it was a big deal to go to Oklahoma State. Like I said, my mother and I, she took me to OU for a recruiting trip, and she took me up to Stillwater, and they dropped me off. It was kind of unnerving a little bit for a small-town boy to be in Stillwater, but I enjoyed it. The students there were wonderful. The instructors there were wonderful. I really, really enjoyed my time there, and I think Oklahoma State's a wonderful university.

Little Thunder: What do you remember most about playing for Mr. Iba?

Berryhill: Well, at that time, freshmen were not eligible for varsity, so we had a freshman team, and we had a very good freshman team that year. I started on the freshman team. Then the next year, sophomore and junior year, my junior year we won the Big Eight, which back then was the eight teams in the conference. Now it's changed quite a bit, so I don't even refer to the Big Eight anymore because people, most of them, don't know what that is. (Laughter) We won the Big Eight in 1965, my junior year, and then I started again my senior year, so I started two years at Oklahoma State: freshman year on the freshman team and then my senior year. Really, really enjoyed it.

We've all been very active and very involved with Oklahoma State athletics since then. We've done--'65, we had a forty-year reunion. We had a committee here of four or five guys that did the reunion, set it up, and they were very helpful at Oklahoma State for us to do that. We invited back all the players that played 12:00for us in 1965. I emceed it. As you might know, liking to talk, they wanted me to emcee, so I got to emcee all this and got to talk a lot. (Laughter) We had the microphone, and we passed it around and talked. We just had a wonderful, wonderful time. My wife attended, and all the wives attended, and it was just really wonderful. That was such a unique experience.

Later, we decided to have a "Men of Iba" reunion a couple years later and invite back all the men that played for Mr. Iba. We did that and, again, the same committee. We set it up and organized it. All the players came back that were able to except for Bob Kurland. Bob Kurland was living in Florida at that time. He'd been an All American for Mr. Iba back in the mid-'40s after the war and had won two national championships then. We really, really enjoyed that.

I probably got more satisfaction out of doing that reunion than I did even our own reunion because the people were so grateful. They're getting older now, and 13:00they're not able to travel, and some of them are leaving us, so we were really, really proud to do that last one. Then we've done one or two other just weekend things here. We met here in Edmond and went to a basketball game for the All College. We've done that. We're still quite involved. There's a number of us here in Oklahoma City that were on those teams. We played for Mr. Iba, and we meet annually, maybe once a month, two months, have lunch, and tell those Mr. Iba stories and embellish them and make them up. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: You did take a drawing class while you were at OSU.

Berryhill: Yes.

Little Thunder: What was that experience like, because you really hadn't explored drawing before, I guess.

Berryhill: No, I hadn't. I just recall it being very interesting. It seemed like a small class. I don't remember how many were in the class at the time, but we 14:00did mostly with pencils. It was teaching you depth. Draw a stool so that you could see the depth of the stool with three legs or four legs or whatever, and a rope. I really, really enjoyed it and don't remember that much, but I think I got a good grade. I don't recall the exact grade that I got, but I think I got a pretty good grade in that class.

Little Thunder: Did you continue to sketch a little bit or not?

Berryhill: No, I really didn't. It didn't affect me that much. Since I've been beading now, I've done some sketches of the different Native American chiefs. Some of them, I think, are quite good, but I didn't do anything after that. I was too involved with athletics, and we kept busy during the season.

Little Thunder: You got your degree in--

Berryhill: I majored in history and took history classes, and I think at the time it was social sciences or social studies. My bachelor's degree was in that. 15:00Then I got married and went in the service, active duty at Fort Polk, Louisiana, and came back and got a job here in Oklahoma City. Then started working on my master's at the University of Central Oklahoma.

Little Thunder: What were you doing in Oklahoma City for your job?

Berryhill: I worked at different places. After I got out of the service, I worked at Star Spencer and different high schools. I taught at high schools and--

Little Thunder: History?

Berryhill: Yes, taught history and geography. I really enjoyed that, at Star Spencer. Then I worked a couple years at Putnam City. I was at Putnam City High School. Worked there for two years, and then went back to Oklahoma State as an assistant coach in 1970. Mr. Iba had retired, and Sam Aubrey, who'd been his assistant for many years, hired Cecil Epperly and I as his assistant coaches. We 16:00were up there for three years as assistant coaches and coaching and did not have to do any teaching, just recruiting and coaching.

Little Thunder: How did you like that?

Berryhill: It was quite an experience. It was really interesting. Outgoing, so I really, really enjoyed it, enjoyed the people, enjoyed the organizations and speaking at different rotary clubs and things like that, and going out to recruit, travel. I had the eastern part of the United States, and Cecil had the western part of the United States. We recruited, and it was fun. We really, really enjoyed it. I enjoyed it a great deal.

Little Thunder: Had you had an interest in antiques prior to walking into that Santa Fe gallery when you saw that knife collection?

Berryhill: Yes, I kind of always liked antiques.

Little Thunder: How did that develop?

Berryhill: I don't know where it came from. As a young boy (I think most young boys like knives, pocket knives, and things like that) I began to collect old 17:00butcher knives and kitchen knives. That was the knives that the Native Americans used to put in their beaded cases, so I had those already when I saw the beaded knife cases. I had collected artwork, some artwork, and bear claw necklaces--

Little Thunder: Some Native artwork?

Berryhill: Yes, Native American artwork and some peace medals, Native American peace medals that represented the Native Americans when they signed a treaty. Really enjoyed those and some artwork and some weapons, bow and arrows and tomahawks and things like that. I collected some of those things prior to getting into actual beadwork. Then about that time, I got into my beadwork, after Santa Fe, after I saw that.

Little Thunder: Let's talk about that. You decided you could go home and make some beaded knife cases, yourself. How did you approach learning how to bead?

Berryhill: Like I said, I had no idea other than I purchased some paperback books that show you how to do beadwork and then began to try to learn how to do it. I would talk to other artists, other beadworkers, or other artists, period, about how to get into shows or things like that, the timing on it. Really enjoyed doing it.

I got a couple of patterns down that I liked in my knife cases. Like I said, my goal was to make twenty knife cases, and probably over a couple of years, I made twenty beaded knife cases. Some were leather with beads on them, and some were all beaded. Put my old knives in them. People began to collect them and like them and would come back each year, which was very surprising to me.

My friend began to tell me that people who like your artwork, they'll come back next year and buy another piece. There's a man by the name of Mr. Wilbur, who 19:00lives near Wichita Falls, Texas, he came every year and would purchase a knife case. He probably had more than anyone else of my knife cases.

Little Thunder: Now, what show was this at?

Berryhill: This was in Santa Fe, Santa Fe Indian Market. I continued to make knife cases, and I did that for four or five years, I guess, and then began to branch out and do other things. Now I probably bead half a dozen, six or eight, different items, different things that I do. Began to make Native American blankets, Navajo blankets. Beaded those for several years. Began to make wooden implements. Read a lot and saw (would go to a lot of museums and get patterns and things) that the Native Americans beaded wooden implements and metal implements, kitchen items like that, so I began to do that, and then I did some bottles.

My wife said, "Why don't you make some perfume bottles? Women like perfume 20:00bottles." Native Americans beaded perfume bottles, and so I began to bead perfume bottles. Then I got into animal skulls. I did bison and a couple of deer and an elk and really enjoyed that. It's just kind of progressed into different areas. The latest thing I've been doing is making beaded fish, trout. A lot of people like to fly fish, so I recently did a fly fishing trout and beaded it and named it The One That Got Away. People liked that. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: One of your bead pictures.

Berryhill: Yes.

Little Thunder: As you were starting out, were there any beadworkers that you admired, especially? Did you ever go to anybody for a little bit of problem solving?

Berryhill: Don't remember talking to too many. Like I said, it seemed like I was 21:00self-taught. I think many of them were very helpful when I did ask questions. Of course, artwork, like athletics, is very competitive, but most of the people at that time when I was going to Santa Fe weren't doing traditional work out there. There weren't but about a dozen beadworkers in Santa Fe at that time, and a lot of them did cigarette cases and pens and things like that, tourist-attraction-type beadwork. Then there were some that were doing the traditional work, which is what I like, too, and I began to get into bags and knife cases and things like that.

There were not that many beadworkers in Santa Fe at that time. There were more beadworkers here in Oklahoma, probably, in the Plains area, than there were in the Southwest. It was not a big artwork, but now it's very, very big. It's grown now to--we have our own category now in Santa Fe Indian Market in beadwork. Of 22:00course, a lot of people do quillwork, but it's really taken off. A lot of the young people are starting to do beadwork now. At the time, it was maybe becoming a lost art. Not many people were beading at that time, but now I think a lot of the younger people and grandchildren and children are beading, which is great. It continues the art form.

Little Thunder: It's so ironic because Santa Fe is kind of like the apogee of Indian art shows, and so the first show that you really applied to do and got accepted to right away was Santa Fe Indian Market. Is that correct?

Berryhill: Well, actually, I did a couple of shows here locally. Did Red Earth first. Red Earth was the first show that I did. Red Earth was the first show. Then Yvonne Kauger, Supreme Court judge, had a show at her home here in Edmond and then up in Colony, Oklahoma. I got into that show and began to flex a little bit and see what was going on.

Everyone said, "Well, Santa Fe is the world series of artwork, so you need to 23:00get into Santa Fe." Well, I applied. Of course, at that time, they said, "We have over a thousand artists at the Indian Market there, and many, many more than that apply. It would take five years before you could get your own booth." They said, "You were accepted." They liked my beadwork, and I was accepted, but you couldn't get a booth. They sent me a letter back and told me that, but then they said sometimes people will share with you.

I had met some friends at Red Earth from out Southwest and began to share a booth. Jose Toledo, who is a watercolor artist, well-known, won many awards out there, lives near Durango, Colorado, now. He offered to share a booth with me. I met him here at Red Earth, and for two years I shared a booth with him. He let me share a booth. He has a niece, Alvina Yepa, who makes pottery. She's a 24:00well-known potter, too, that has won awards in Santa Fe. She let me share a booth with her for two years.

Then just like clockwork, on the fifth year, I got my own booth. (Laughter) Then I said, "I will always share with someone," so Danny Worcester, who makes knives, and I have been sharing a booth. Sometimes he would get the booth, and sometimes I would get the booth. We've always shared with each other, about the last fifteen years.

Little Thunder: So your first year at Santa Fe Indian Market was what year?

Berryhill: It was 1992.

Little Thunder: So you'd been beading for about four years.

Berryhill: Yes, three or four years.

Little Thunder: When you were working on your knife cases, where did you get your designs?

Berryhill: Like I said, Pat (my wife) and I would go to a lot of museums, and I would make sketches there, which, again, goes back to my--maybe the first class I ever took at OSU was a sketching class. I would sketch and take the colors and the patterns down. And, of course, I would purchase books, paperback books and 25:00hardback books, that had Native American beadwork in it that would show me the patterns and the color combinations and the different tribes and so forth and the style of beading. I began to do that and really enjoyed that.

Little Thunder: When you're first starting out, in terms of getting your supplies, you don't always know where you can get the best deals or the biggest assortment of beads to look through. How did you get your supplies when you started out?

Berryhill: Yes, that's another thing you had to learn from other people. Where do you buy your beads and that type of thing? At the time, there were a couple of places that had beads, and they had catalogs, and you could order them from there. Then there's another place in Texas now that has beadwork. There's one here in Bethany that sells a lot of beads. As time went on, people began to open 26:00up little shops.

There used to be one here in Edmond that sold beads. Of course, the beadwork now is not necessarily focused on Native American traditional beadwork but contemporary beadwork for necklaces and all kinds of beads that they do, make pins and hat pins and everything, not necessarily Native American.

Most of my beads are from the companies that provide them. There's one in Colorado, too, that I buy a lot of beads from. They come to the art shows, too. Those people that sell things that Native American artists can use will be at the art shows. It's mostly at Red Earth and the other art shows. They'll be there, and so you can purchase your beads from them.

Little Thunder: Although, as you mentioned, there weren't a lot of beadworkers out in Santa Fe when you started, we had a lot of Oklahoma beadworkers. I'm wondering what set your beadwork apart from other beadworkers'.

Berryhill: I don't really know what that would be. Someone else would probably have to define that. As I see it, I started off just with the knife cases and bags, different bags, because those were very popular at the time. I made quirts, riding-horse quirts, the whip they would use when they were riding horses.

Little Thunder: Was anybody else doing cultural items like quirts?

Berryhill: I did not see that many. Most of them were doing, maybe, little dolls. They were doing vests and shirts and jackets and cradle boards, that nature. Bags were really popular then, and so I did all those traditional things early and then began to branch out and do different things and did some things that other people weren't doing at the time.

I still think I'm doing some things that no one else is doing. For example, the beaded Navajo blankets, I began to do those. I just really love those, and they were very, very popular and still are popular. I haven't done many in a few years, but I'm kind of wanting to get back and start doing that.

And the wooden utensils, I don't see many wooden utensils. People still stick with what they began to first do, but I began to branch out and do, like I said, about a half a dozen different things. I do spurs and keys now, the old big Mexican keys, and the old Mexican spurs with big rowels on them. They had branding irons. They called them saddle irons at the time. You could make candle holders out of them if they stand up straight, and I began to bead those.

I really began to branch off and do different things that I didn't think other people were doing. When people come by the booth now, they'll comment that these things are quite different. In fact, the best compliment that I get on my beadwork when they come by Indian Market is that they'll say, "Wow!" Then pretty soon her husband will come by and say, "Wow! And I say, "Wow." "Oh, that's good." (Laughter) I'll say, "Thank you. Do you collect beadwork?" They'll say, "No." "Do you like beadwork?" "No, but this is wow! This is totally different than anything out here!" I'll say, "That's the best compliment I've had all day. We laugh and talk about that.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you were making some of your wooden items that you bead, or not?

Berryhill: No. I just find the old or antique ones. They need to be older and used. Maybe Grandma used them. Some of them are newer. I've had people say, "Make me a new one so I can use it." Most of them are antique, whether they're 30:00knives or the old kitchenware, forks and spoons and knives, and military knives and spoons. Then the old wooden items, mashers and wooden spoons and forks and things like that.

Little Thunder: What was one of the first awards that you won in beadwork?

Berryhill: Probably in Santa Fe. I think it was the first deer skull that I made. I beaded a deer skull, and it won second place, I believe, in Indian Market several years ago. I believe that was the first piece that I actually won and received a ribbon for.

Little Thunder: How did that feel?

Berryhill: It was gratifying and really, really very nice. They always give you a little check for doing that. It was nice. I remember being pretty excited there at Indian Market. A friend of mine and I were walking around, and we walked up and saw the prize there on my deer skull. I was pretty excited at the 31:00time. I think we went out to dinner that night and celebrated. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: Did you have collectors in front of your booth early in the morning?

Berryhill: Well, my booth mate does. He makes knives, and he is just amazing. He's won about ten years, ten or twelve years out there. His customers are there at six o'clock in the morning when we're setting up. Not many are coming by to see my work at six o'clock in the morning.

Little Thunder: Even that year that you won the prize?

Berryhill: No, not really. It sold. A lady from Texas purchased it, and that was nice. But I think beadwork is in a different category than other things. I think Danny, the knife maker, has probably a dozen, twenty people that collect his knives, and they just wait until each year to collect his knives. His knives are beautiful. They're wonderful.

Little Thunder: Have you ever beaded any of his knives?

Berryhill: Yes. He retired about a year ago, and I took the pattern of one of his knives, and I beaded it for him and framed it and presented it to him on his retirement. He was quite moved. I think it was really well done, and he really, really liked it. The next year I retired, and he made a knife for me, Indian corn knife handle, and gave it to me as my retirement. We enjoy the knives.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. You mentioned traveling to museums occasionally and sketching. What are some of the places that you travel for research?

Berryhill: We travel a lot. The Native American museum in Washington, DC, is fabulous. It's wonderful. It's a new museum there of Native American culture. I 33:00think probably in Oklahoma here, we probably have more museums that feature the Native American artists, and I just think they're wonderful. When people come visiting, we always take them to these museums.

Of course, the Cowboy Hall of Fame, or the [National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum]. They changed the name of it. The Woolaroc Museum [and Wildlife Preserve] in Bartlesville, west of Bartlesville, I think is awesome. It probably has the best beadwork blankets, everything that you want. The Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa and the Philbrook Museum in Tulsa--there are three there that are probably the finest museums in the United States. There are other museums that we've attended, but those are wonderful museums.

Little Thunder: Have you ever been back to the Euchee homelands in the Southeast?

Berryhill: Yes, yes we have. We just recently returned from there about a week ago. We were visiting friends in Georgia, and the Euchees were in Georgia, South 34:00Carolina, and Tennessee, southern Tennessee, and northern Georgia. We've driven around and seen Euchee churches and Euchee cemeteries and different things like that in reference to the Euchees who lived there during that time. This is our second visit there to our friends' in Americus, Georgia, which is near Plains, Georgia. President Jimmy Carter grew up there. We've looked at a lot of the Euchee history there, and we stop at different places and see and read the inscriptions on the buildings and things.

Little Thunder: Do you sell your work through galleries?

Berryhill: Yes. Most of the Native Americans will sell work through galleries. At first, I didn't sell much through galleries because I was working full-time at the time and didn't have that much inventory. I would have people come down from Canyon Road in Santa Fe that would want my beaded blankets. I just never 35:00had enough inventory to give them four or five blankets and then still sell because beadwork is quite time- consuming in its operation, very time-consuming. Now that I've retired, I've had a little more time. I've gotten into two or three galleries.

Little Thunder: What are your galleries?

Berryhill: I've been in and out of different galleries at different times. You'll stay in them for a year and then move to different galleries. There was a gallery in Sedona, Arizona, that was really nice. I took most of my big pieces there. Linda Goldenstein was the name of the gallery, and was a very highly-ranked gallery. Shiprock Santa Fe [Gallery], Jed Foutz, he carries some of my work. Northern New Mexico Art Gallery in New Mexico was there, and then he 36:00moved from right off the square in Santa Fe to over the rail yard. He's moved out to southern California now. Those were the three that at different times I've had artwork in those three galleries.

Little Thunder: How important for you are commissions?

Berryhill: Well, when we started doing this, I did not do it as an income because I was working at the time. Now that we're retired, the commissions--different people charge different commissions, and that's what people told me when I first started putting work in galleries. The commissions are good because the people that show your work need to have some of the income from those things. I don't know. Different people think differently about the 37:00commissions. Sometimes it's a sixty-forty, sometimes a fifty-fifty, but the galleries have to make their money, too.

Little Thunder: I was actually thinking of commissions in terms of people ordering. Do you take commissions from people?

Berryhill: Oh, individual commissions on artwork, yes. At first, I did not like to do commission work because it ties me down to having to do things that--I'd rather be doing other things and be freelance and kind of do what I want to do. I've probably done maybe less than half a dozen commission pieces. I really prefer to do just what I do and then sell them, but if someone sees a piece that recently sold and says, "Well, I'd like one of those," I might make another one. I haven't done very many commission pieces. A lot of the artists really, really like to do the commission pieces for people. I never did get into that as much.

Little Thunder: Do you sell quite a bit from your home, as well?

Berryhill: No, I've had two or three people that have purchased things from 38:00Indian Market. They would be coming through Oklahoma City, and they would call and stop and have collected my work in the last five years or so, five or six years, that will come by and look at our work area here and buy a piece. Usually, I don't sell much out of the house.

Little Thunder: I think one of the issues that bead artists have run into is that in general (and it hasn't been fair) bead art doesn't get the price that it deserves, really. What are your thoughts on that?

Berryhill: I think you would know that, too, your background, your history with your husband [Merlin Little Thunder]. I think probably next to weaving, beadwork is the most time-consuming of all the artwork. If you'll talk to painters, they can knock out a painting pretty fast. I'm sure sculpture takes awhile, but the 39:00sculptures, artists that do that, they can make bronzes, and then they'll have ten bronzes or five bronzes they can sell, which is wonderful for them. Very, very time-consuming.

They don't pay me by the hour. They don't pay beadworkers by the hour, I can tell you that. If they did, we probably couldn't sell any of our work because it'd be over-priced. (Laughter) It is very, very time-consuming, and you can put a price on it and hope someone purchases it. I guess sometimes, if they don't purchase it, then you can maybe mark it down at another show. Indian Market is the Super Bowl of Indian artwork, so the prices out there are pretty steady. When I go to other shows sometimes, the economy may be different, so the prices may be a little different.

Little Thunder: Do you think there should be a distinction made between bead art 40:00and bead craft?

Berryhill: Well, it all started out as tourist craft, and I think that's the history of beadwork, selling it. The Native Americans made beadwork for themselves, for their shirts and their cradleboards and their knife cases and things like that, but when it began to be selling, then they made the trinkets and the smaller pieces that they sold to tourists. I think, probably, there should be a little bit of a distinction, and I think that's probably coming.

Little Thunder: What would it be based on?

Berryhill: I don't know what rules they would use, what they would base it on. I feel like the people that make smaller things need to enjoy selling their things as much as I do, but I think the standards will be getting into art shows. The 41:00standards that they set at the art shows will decide who gets in and who doesn't get in. The people that don't get in sometimes will sell their work to museums or to tourist places, and they can sell their artwork at that level. I think most of the art shows, the higher-end art shows, have pretty strict standards to get in as far as painting, beading, sculpture, whatever you're doing.

Little Thunder: What about the business side of art? What have you learned about that?

Berryhill: I think it's a business for most of the people because that's their livelihood. They have to have whatever they're making, and that is their livelihood. The Native Americans haven't enjoyed a great deal of prosperity, and they've had some problems all through generations. I think it is a business for 42:00most of them, and you do have to pay business tax. All of us have to do that. For some people, and for me, for example, I do not depend on this for a living, and so I don't see it as a business, per se. But again, it is a business because I have to have a business license and pay sales tax.

Wherever you go, you have to sign up, get a sales tax number. I think it's very, very important for some of the people. That's their total livelihood, total income, but I'm fortunate enough that this is not my total income. It's kind of a hobby, something I enjoy doing. If we sell out, I'm happy. If we sell nothing, I'm happy, just to be able to be around the artists, to be in those shows, to talk to people that I've met. I think the Native Americans and the Native 43:00American artists are truly a wonderful group of people.

Little Thunder: You have a nice story about being at Kauger's show that illustrates the networking and support you've gotten from some of the artists. Do you want to share that?

Berryhill: Oh, definitely. You have to have a lot of support and networking. People need to support you and encourage you and so forth. Yvonne Kauger, like I mentioned earlier, did several shows. I don't think she's currently doing them, but, originally, it was one of the first shows that I did. I was so excited to be there because all the famous artists were there because she invited all the top artists in Oklahoma City, the Oklahoma area.

I was there and was just so happy to be standing around, talking to all the famous artists. I happened to be standing next to Ben Harjo, and he's one of the top artists. I told Ben, "Man, I'm excited to be here! I just can't believe I'm here. I just love it! I get to meet all these artists that I've known about and 44:00talked about and see in the newspaper and everything, but I don't know how I got here."

Ben was standing next to me, and he said, "Well, I know." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yes. I gave her your name." I said, "Really? You gave her my name?" He said, "Yes." Yvonne invited me on Ben's recommendation, and, evidently, I got in, and I've been doing well since. You have to have the support from other artists and from other people. Of course, Yvonne's just been a great ambassador for Native American art.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you really got into your beading seriously as an art when you met Pat, that it happened around the same time. Can you talk about her role in your development of art?

Berryhill: Yes, I'd been making the knife cases prior to marrying Pat, and I 45:00continue to make them. Like I said, she's the one that said, "Why don't you try going to art shows?" So I began to do that. She's very creative and comes up with some really good ideas. I like to have her input into different things, especially colors and, I think, types of artwork that I've been doing. In fact, she's come up with the idea for several of the things, the categories, or the areas that I'm working on right now. Seemed like coming back from Santa Fe each year, we would talk about this, driving back. She'd come up with an idea, we'd get home, and I'd start doing it.

The thing on the Native American Navajo rugs, she came up with that, that idea. She said, "Why don't you bead some rugs?" I said, "How do you do that?" Then, of course, I came home and began to look at artwork and rugs and figured out which ones I could do and which ones I couldn't do and began to do that. Several years 46:00later, she came up with the idea of these wooden spoons. Said, "Wooden spoons would be good." I said, "Who would buy a wooden spoon?" She said, "Well, you just do it, and then you'll find out. People will put those in their kitchen. Women will buy those." I said, "Oh, really?"

I had already done a few military-type spoons and things that I'd found, so that was an easy transition. Then she came up with the perfume bottles. She said, "Do some perfume bottles. They'll buy those." Of course, I knew, and I'd seen in the magazines and books that Native Americans had already been doing bottles and so forth. A lot of these things come from her.

She's seen things like these large keys that used to open the big doors on the big Mexican haciendas. She thought those would be cool. Then the branding irons, they're called saddle irons, which are cut down so that they'll fit on the back 47:00of a saddle. You can cut off a stick out in the back and put it in there and use it as branding, and they can make candle holders. She came up with those. Probably half of the ideas that we're into now came from her because she's very creative. I always tell people that the Native American saying is, "If it stands still, we'll bead it." So don't stand still. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: I'd like to talk a little bit about the piece that you won second place on at Red Earth, which was a shell dress, dentalium dress. Did that present any special challenges? It was a bead picture, I guess.

Berryhill: Yes, I call it bead artwork where we actually make a picture. You're doing a picture. I know I've done a pretty good job if in the back of the booth it's hung up, people will come by, and they'll say, "Les, when did you start painting?" (Laughter) I say, "That's not a painting." They say, "Yes, that one 48:00right there is a painting." I say, "No, that's beadwork." I had to use very fine beads, the smaller beads, in that and had a variety of colors.

Then, of course, I see a lot of these. I don't make them up. Most of them are seen in pictures, old pictures or new pictures or powwow pictures, where people will be making the dentalium dresses made out of seashell from the ocean, (that's the top third of the dress) and then others will be making them from elk teeth. A bull elk will have two ivory teeth. They're actually not ivory, but that's what they're called, and they would make a dress out of that, put those all on the dress. I had to be creative and come up with something that looked like that or replicated what those things were.

Then the dentalium shells, they actually make dentalium shells in different 49:00sizes. They'll come as large as two inches, two and a half inches, all the way down to half an inch. I found some that were smaller, and had a picture and did that piece. It actually had a knife case, beaded knife case, on the dress. Then the elk-tooth dresses, I found some larger beads that were the color of the elk teeth, and they worked out real well.

I've done probably three or four of those in different colors, and they're representing a dancer at a powwow, Native American dancer at powwow. Again, I either saw the picture in a magazine or in a book. I also have gone to powwows and seen them dancing and would take notes and so forth and began to do that.

Little Thunder: Try to catch a bit of the motion, the sense of movement.

Berryhill: Yes, that's correct. A lot of people say on the elk dress, it looks like she's actually dancing. I did one, replicated from one of Ben Harjo's dancers, where the cloth on her dress is swaying like this, swaying back and forth as she's dancing. It turned out real well. It really looked authentic. They're hard to do sometimes when you've got to figure out, map out, figure out the entire thing before you actually start.

Little Thunder: The attraction, I think they are just wonderful, but it's interesting, taking from one medium and translating it into another. What draws you to that?

Berryhill: Well, I did just the single things, like I was talking about, and then to get some depth on it, I began to do different things. I guess there are 51:00people that do this, but I call it spot beading. There's another term, another form of beadwork that's called spot stitch, but I do it one bead at a time, and that's what's on my dresses. I'll put one bead down, and then I'll come back and put another bead down, and I'll put another bead down. It's quite time-consuming, as opposed to laying down a whole line of beads and then going back and tacking them down, which is another process, lane stitch or line stitch.

When I began to do that, that allowed me to make a more authentic-looking dress. Also, on my skull, the bison skull, it was completely spot stitch, and then it had a few designs on it, some symmetrical designs on the head of the bison and on the eye. It's involved. Again, you have to know two or three different types 52:00of stitching. Like I said, the pictures that I do now, (bead painting is what I call it, bead painting) they're done with my spot stitch, which is different from the traditional spot stitch, which I put down one bead at a time, and it makes a different look, totally different look.

Little Thunder: That's a good point at which to segue into talking about your process a little more. It's so interesting to me that this stereotype in the dominant society is if you're real athletic, you're not the kind of person to do any kind of sit-still work, really fine work, and yet there are just so many people I know that are athletically-oriented and they love this minute, detailed, have-to-sit-still-and-focus kind of work. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Berryhill: Yes. I think a lot of the artwork, you really have to be focused, and you have to be patient. That's one of the virtues that I think I have is patience. You can ask my wife. She'll tell you that I'm very patient, being married to her. (Laughter) You have to have patience and concentration, and that comes from athletics, too. You have to be patient in certain things that you're doing, whether it's football or running track or whatever, baseball. You have to be patient to a certain extent, and you have to concentrate. Those things, traits, have to be used in athletics and, I think, in the beadwork.

Then again, you learn to try to do them faster. I'm trying to pick up my pace because beadwork is so slow, I've tried to be faster. How do you get faster at doing these things and producing these things? Some of them you just can't. You 54:00just can't be faster. It just doesn't work. You have to be patient. You have to take the time to put in the work to do it, and that goes back, again, to I don't know if we get enough money to pay us per hour for the work we do.

Little Thunder: Talking a bit about your process and techniques, there are both, kinds of beads and sizes of beads, to consider. What are some of your primary materials?

Berryhill: Well, of course, the beads are the primary thing. The traditional way the Native Americans beaded was on smoked, brain-tanned buckskin, and that is an art in itself. There are a few people here in Oklahoma that do that. I've purchased some hides from them, and they're quite expensive. They're very expensive. I just recently purchased some in Santa Fe.

When we enter the competition, we usually put that down, that it's traditional 55:00Native American material: smoked, they smoked it to keep the insects away from it, and it's brain-tanned buckskin from the deer. Of course, that's, I think, all I've been using. Again, the Native Americans used some canvas, and so I cover some things in canvas. I don't bead on it as a background, but I've covered some things in canvas.

Of course, the beads, itself, and the string we used, the type of string is a nylon string now. Several different companies make it, and it comes in different sizes. The needles, of course, is the key thing. You have to have needles, and they come in different sizes, and threads come in different sizes.

Depending on what you're beading, as far as the strength of something, you have to use a heavier thread, and then the beads themselves. They've really reproduced, replicated the colors of the beads quite well. Every once in a 56:00while, you'll run into someone that will have some old beads, traditional old beads. In fact, I've got a couple of friends that send me some old beads when they find some. They like putting old beads on their pieces, and I would do that, too. I usually didn't have enough to do the whole project, but I would put some old beads in there and then tell the people if they purchased that piece of equipment, there was some old beads in there.

The coloring has really been replicated well. Italy and Czech Republic and the Japanese are making beads now. I guess they're using the original formulas or something because the beads are really, really well done, and the coloring is really good on them. I've been impressed with that because I like to use all the old colors. Of course, you have a lot of traditional, contemporary colors that Native Americans didn't have, but they had a lot of the old colors that they used.

They started off with trade beads, which made big necklaces as big as your finger, chevrons and padre beads and those types of beads. Then they began to bring in pony beads, which are large beads. They were called pony beads because they were brought in big barrels on the backs of ponies, so they began to use those. Then on the East Coast, they brought in seed beads. That was the last one, probably. In the 1860s, they brought in seed beads.

This was about the time the Native Americans were being on reservations and going to schools and stuff, so they did a lot of beading. They were no longer nomads, no longer roaming around. They were stationary, so they had more time to bead. These beads came in at a good time, and they were called seed beads. Again, they come in a number of sizes, and they are quite unique. A lot of 58:00people use the real small ones. They come in sixteens and eighteens. The larger the number on the bead, the smaller the bead. I started off using elevens.

Little Thunder: Seed beads is mainly what you use.

Berryhill: Yes, seed beads. Mostly use thirteens now. Most of my beadwork is thirteens, but then if I do a large project like the bison skull, I jump up there and use some tens and some pony beads. I have to cover a lot of surface. The beads, I think, are really, really good, the replication and coloring, and the prices aren't bad. The prices aren't bad, but you can also purchase some old-type beads, too. I have some old beads, still, and I would put them on small bags and things that didn't take a lot of beadwork.

Little Thunder: Going back to your knife cases real quickly, are you using both buckskin and buffalo hide? Do you need that harder part to make the scabbard? 59:00You make them yourself, right?

Berryhill: Yes, yes. You make them yourself, and the beadwork, itself, is put on the brain-tanned buck skin. Then you have to have a base for that in there. A lot of them will do a rawhide base or a buckskin leather base or some kind of a thicker leather as the base. Then you sew that together, and you sew the brain-tanned over the top of that. Then if you have knives, you put the knife in there, too, and you've got to pattern it to the shape of the knife or the length of the knife and the size of the knife.

Little Thunder: That's a lot of work, for sure. Can you pretty much gauge how many beads you need for a project now by sight, or do you calculate?

Berryhill: Usually on a big project, I'll have to purchase beads for that particular project. I've just got beads everywhere. I've got so many beads, I'll 60:00never be able to use them all. You can pretty much project how much. Sometimes there's some rule of thumb (they give them in these catalogs) about how much a hank is a string of beads or an ounce of beads, how much that would cover. It'll cover four inches or six inches. If you've got a five-square-inch something, you've got to get enough beads to cover that. It's a lot of calculations involved, actually, surprisingly.

Little Thunder: Do you make many mistakes anymore and have to cut out what you did?

Berryhill: Oh, yes. I just read something recently about that. A couple of beadworkers that influenced me earlier, Marcus Amerman, who is from Oklahoma, Choctaw, he's an outstanding beadworker and is one of the best beadworkers in 61:00the world.

Little Thunder: And was into that bead painting very early.

Berryhill: Yes, got into the bead painting very early. He's told me many things that I use. One of the things he said was that it's always to your advantage to tear something out if it's not done very well and do it again to make it fit what you really want it to look like. I've done that many times. I've done that many times. I think that's important, too. I just read that in one of the bead magazines recently. If you're doing a three-inch-square something, don't be scared to tear out half of that to redo it to make it right, and I think most beadworkers will do that.

Little Thunder: What's another thing that Amerman told you?

Berryhill: Well, one of the first things, he came here to the house up to my studio--

Little Thunder: When was this?

Berryhill: This was probably mid'90s. He moved to Santa Fe and lived here and 62:00went to Red Earth for several years. His mother and father, I met them. He has a brother that's an excellent beadworker, too, that's from the West Coast, the Oregon-Washington State area. Came here and said, "Where do you do your beadwork?" It was exactly where we are sitting now, and I had no lighting. He said, "Where's your lighting?" I said, "It's just right here, up above." (Laughter) He said, "Really? You need to get some light, Les. You need to get a light. Get a light put on your desk, there, and that'll help you." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yes." (Laughter)

So I began to get lights and put them on my desk. I've always been near-sighted, so I never had to have glasses or reading glasses and have very good eyesight. When I turned the lights on, though, it was like night and day. (Laughter) Marcus has influenced me in several areas to help me get started. Now, as I'm 63:00getting older and doing it for a longer period of time, I do wear reading glasses to do most of my work.

Little Thunder: What's the relationship between beauty and functionality in your work?

Berryhill: The things I've been doing recently are more for the beauty of the work, itself, the creativity of it. The early things I did was more functional. They were made for the Native Americans, and they had functional use. That's why they made them. They didn't make a lot for decoration or for beauty, itself. A few of the things they would put on their jackets and on the cradleboards were, but most of the earlier things were functional. They were knife cases, all those things, the bags that they used. Of course, they began to decorate the moccasins and the cradleboards and the jackets and vests and things like that.

There's a big difference in it. I think most of my work now, since I'm not as traditional as I was, (I've been bead painting) is more for the art, itself, the beauty of it, to actually looking at it. Like I said, people will question me that I'm doing paintings instead of beadwork on my dresses and on my Navajo blankets. They'll say, "Oh, you're weaving now." I'll say, "No, that's beads. Those are beads." "Oh, really?" They'll look closer, and they'll say "Oh, yes. That's beads." It's a change, and I'm kind of staying in the area where you make things for the beauty of it now.

Little Thunder: You've talked a little bit about how you do your bead paintings. I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about the wrap technique that's involved with your perfume bottles or the quirts.

Berryhill: Sure. Those were some of the things I did later. The first things I did, I used the traditional loop stitch, lane stitch, different stitching styles that the Native Americans did. Later on when I began to do the round objects, then I began to use the traditional, the first method that the Native Americans had, which was just wrapping it around. You just have to wrap it, wrap it, wrap it, wrap it.

But, again, there's the artistic part of the colors and the style of it and the geometric design of it. People, one of the things they've mentioned is my color combinations, how I put the colors together. They really like how the colors are put together. I don't think much about it, but I do use the traditional colors, which I think most of them go well together, anyway.

Little Thunder: Are they on a buckskin? Is there a buckskin backing?

Berryhill: Yes, I first started off with a buckskin backing around the implement or around the bottle, and then I graduated to canvas, put a canvas on there, which helps it. Now, I've progressed to the point where I can put it directly onto the bottle or onto the wooden implement. Figured out a technique of how to do that, which cuts down on the time involved. The time factor in beading is so essential, and I figured out how to do that now by not putting anything on there. It just goes directly onto the bottle and onto the wooden implement.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Berryhill: I think, first of all, you have to figure out the idea. It comes first, what you want to do. Say, it's an elk tooth dress. Then I have to figure 67:00out, "How am I going to do this? What is going to replicate those elk teeth, and how am I going to do this?" And then the colors that you're going to use, and then you have to lay that out artistically by drawing it. You have to actually draw it out, and then you have to transplant that onto the leather, to bead onto the leather, the brain-tanned.

You put that on there, and then you have to decide on your technique that you're going to use on that particular beadwork. Like I said, on my dresses I've been using that spot stitch, which is very slow. It's much slower than any other types of stitching, but I think it makes a better-looking dress. It makes it look more authentic-looking. Then you have to put in or include the elk teeth or the dentalium shells, whatever it is you're adding to that. It is a creative 68:00process that takes a little bit of time. It does. I say the preparation is more time-consuming than you think it would be.

Little Thunder: How about your creative routine? Do you have a routine, in terms of certain times of the day that you try to work?

Berryhill: Before I retired, I would work in the evenings and on weekends. I would just work at night for a couple, two, or three hours, and then I would work on weekends, Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon or something. You've got to have time to do other things. But now that I'm retired, I have so much more time, I actually could just get up, and then I can start whenever I want to. I can start at nine o'clock if I want. Sometimes I'll start at one o'clock, and then I'll work until about five-thirty, and then I won't do anything. Or I'll come back at seven o'clock and work until ten and do certain things.

What I like to do is have things in different stages. I like to have things that 69:00I'm starting, I like to have things that I'm in the middle of, and I like to have a project that I'm about finishing up. I like to have a project that I'm designing, figuring out what I'm going to do next. I like to have different phases of different ideas so that I'm not bored, just doing this over and over and over and over and over. I branch out and do different things, and that helps me stay a little more alert instead of falling asleep while I'm beading. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: What's a project you're especially excited about right now?

Berryhill: Like I said, I've changed different things over the years, changed the patterns I've been doing. I'm into the fish now. I like fish, the rainbow trouts and the different trouts that fly fisherman use. I'm really into that, and I'll probably do a few more of those. I've only done two or three on 70:00brain-tanned, and then I did one that was mounted on a wooden vase. The fish, itself, was mounted on the wooden vase and stood up on a platform. It was probably about ten inches long and about three inches high. I'll probably do another one of those. I've been doing six-inch trouts on brain-tanned, and I enjoy those things now. As far as anything new, I haven't come up with anything in particular, other than the fish. That's been the last thing that I've done.

Little Thunder: What's been a turning point for you, do you think, in terms of a fork-in-the-road moment, once you did decided you wanted to spend your time doing this, once you were able to?

Berryhill: When I first started or after I've been retired?

Little Thunder: In either situation.

Berryhill: Oh, in either situation? Well, when I first started, it was just to satisfy my own personal need, which was I wanted twenty knife cases and that was going to be all of it. Then after I got into going to shows, then it became the creative part of it. Like I said, I was fortunate enough not to have to make it my business, to make it my livelihood.

We like to travel, and so we go to different shows. I've gone to a number of shows in different places. We've done shows in Dallas, Tulsa, Cherokee Art Show, and the Red Earth here. Prescott, Arizona, has a real nice show that we've gone to for years, over different years. Phoenix Heard Museum show is a wonderful, wonderful show. I went to a show in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, which was wonderful. We love going up there. We include travel into our shows, and we travel a lot, too.

It's the creative part of it. It's not the financial or monetary part of it. It's the relationships that you develop with other artists and with people that organize the shows, like the Red Earth people. The people over in Tulsa are so nice. The people in the Heard are wonderful. The people in the SWAIA [Southwest Association for Indian Arts] Indian Market are wonderful.

I was on the Board of SWAIA, which is a governing body for the Indian art show, for two years. The people out there are just wonderful, too. None of it could have been done without one, the artist, and two, the volunteers, and then the administration that organize the show and run it.

I think recently, it's been more of a creative thing to figure out something new and something different that I haven't done before. Right now, I haven't done 73:00any blankets for several years, so I think I'll go back and do some blankets. There was a gentleman that purchased a blanket in Phoenix not too long ago, and he just really likes the blankets. He collects trade beads, and I didn't have very many blankets at the time. I told him I had several kinds. He said, "Oh, man! Those would be cool. I'd like to see some of those." So I'm maybe going back and doing three different phases of the chiefs blankets that I did before.

Little Thunder: What has been a high point of your career?

Berryhill: Oh, probably my grandkids coming to the first art show that I did. They were excited.

Little Thunder: How old were they?

Berryhill: They weren't very old. They were probably five and six, something like that. It was at Red Earth. Of course, any time you compete and do well in competition and win, that's exciting, too, and just seeing all your friends and 74:00the people that come back. It's very moving for me to have people that return and purchase items from you. When I first started this, I didn't realize that would happen. People told me that, and I was kind of skeptical, but it happens. It's very nice, and those people are wonderful that come back and collect your artwork.

Anyway, they [the grandchildren] came to one of the shows, and we have a director's chair, usually, that we set up that's up high. Sometimes it'll have your name on it. People have done different ones, different ways. We don't use the directors' chairs much anymore, but we did when we first started because everyone had directors' chairs. Oh, they thought that was wonderful. Sit up in a director's chair and look at everybody, and everyone's coming by and saying hi and waving. (Laughter) That was really interesting and neat for them to come and see. I'm Grandpa Bear, by the way. I have a nickname of Bear. To see Grandpa Bear do his artwork, that was interesting. (Laughter)

Little Thunder: How'd you get your nickname?

Berryhill: When the children were born, the other grandmothers asked me what I wanted to be. I said, "Grandpa." They said, "No, you can't be Grandpa. That's just too old. Like, I'm Mama K, and the other one was Pa. What do you want to be called?" I had no idea. (Laughter) I did not know why it came out of my mouth, but I said, "Bear. Grandpa Bear." She said, "That's cool. Okay, you're Grandpa Bear." My family purchased me a bracelet that has a bear on it, and I enjoy that.

I think I began to call Pat--they call her Pat-Pat. That's her nickname. Her grandmother name is Pat-Pat. I believe I called her Bear before I even became Bear, so I guess that's what popped out in me is Bear. That's been exciting, for the grandchildren to come, and my son and daughter-in-law.

Going to all these different shows and being accepted to the shows, when you feel humble and people enjoy your work, that's been very good, too. To be able to be accepted at Indian Market and the Heard Museum, those are the two largest shows out there, now. Like I said, these other shows are really unique, and I enjoy them. Jackson Hole, Prescott, the two shows here in Oklahoma, I really support them. It's very, very good. I just really enjoy the camaraderie and the people that you meet and see and get to talk to and go around and visit with. Sometimes you're too busy with your booth to be able to go around. At Indian Market they're spread out so far, it's hard to get to see some of the people, but it's really rewarding.

Little Thunder: What's been one of the low points?

Berryhill: I don't know that I've had any low points during the art shows. Most of the time, I've been accepted into shows. I would think, probably, if I was trying to get into a show and couldn't get in, that would be a low point that would discourage you. Like I said, it happened at Santa Fe. I was accepted. My work was approved, but there were not enough booths for everyone to get in. They had a little trailer there that if you could share a booth with somebody, then you possibly could get in. It would usually take you five years to get your own booth. I was able to do that and share with someone. They gave you a list of people from your area that you could actually share with.

Once I got my booth, I made a pledge to myself that I'd always share with 78:00somebody, even though it reduces your booth space. That allows other people to get into the shows that wouldn't, and that's what I confirmed when I first started trying to get in. The other shows, I got in most of the time.

Little Thunder: Is there anything else you'd like to add or talk about before we start looking at your work?

Berryhill: No. I just thank you, Julie, for coming down all the way from Stillwater and of course, from Tulsa, where you live. I appreciate the time you take to do this and share these things that the artists talk to you about, and allow that to be shared with other people online and different places. I appreciate you. Thank you.

Little Thunder: Well, thank you, and let's take a look at your work. This is an example of one of your beaded skulls.

Berryhill: This is the second deer skull that I've done. The first one won 79:00second place in Santa Fe. Then I did a bison skull, and then I've done an elk skull. These are the three or four that I've done. On this, it's kind of a contemporary look as opposed to a traditional look. The first deer skull was a traditional look with a little bit of design on it. The bison skull was traditional. This is more contemporary.

I did my spot stitching on this. Most of the time the skull is completely covered with the buckskin. I take it off, then I bead it on there, and then you have to put it back on. Usually, it's 100 percent or 90 percent covered with beads.

Little Thunder: Was that a lightning design?

Berryhill: Probably. I can't remember exactly what I did when I did that one.

Little Thunder: It has a really poignant quality in the design.

Berryhill: That on the jaw line there, it was a mountain, designed to be a mountain, and then, of course, I think the nose was a lightning strike. Then the others were just designs. His eye, black eye, is just kind of very contemporary. That represents a mountain. We'd gone out to Wyoming and had seen some mountains out there, the Teton Mountains, and that was a replica of the Teton Mountains.

Little Thunder: That's nice.

Berryhill: This is one of the bead dresses that I've been doing. I've done 81:00probably four or five. This is a lady dancing at the powwow. This is an elk-tooth dress. I've done them in red and green and navy blue, and she's dancing at the powwow. I've seen a lot of elk-tooth dresses in magazines and in books and wanted to replicate that. I thought this one turned out real well. I do this size. I've done one larger, probably three times this large, one of Ben Harjo's dancing girls, swaying at the powwow. Usually, they're all taken from the rear like this, so you can see the dress and don't have to do much with the face, just see the back of the head.

Little Thunder: I love the shadow effect you created on the arms.

Berryhill: Yes, those are where the arms are. The crease is there in the elbow 82:00area. This is mounted and sewn onto smoked, brain-tanned buckskin. That's the background of it before I frame it.

Little Thunder: That's beautiful.

Berryhill: This is a squash blossom necklace that my wife has. I used it as a model and just decided to bead it one day. Like I said, the creativity, I guess, came out. It's a turquoise squash blossom necklace, and it's replicated the exact size that my wife has. I thought it turned out very good. Some of the squash blossoms are quite complicated. This one was more simple, an older piece. I thought it turned out well.

This is my wife's favorite piece, I think. People see it in the back of the booth, and they'll say, "When did you start drawing, painting? Is that a 83:00painting?" (Laughter) I'll say, "No, that's my beadwork." I'll take it down and bring it out to the front of the booth so they can see it, and they'll say, "Oh, my goodness. That is really nice." I really like it. It's the only necklace I've ever beaded in this style like this. I don't know. I thought the squash blossom was a traditional Native American necklace, so I did that one.

This is a cradleboard. I began to collect cradleboards from Deanna Broughton, who lives in Ardmore, who is an artist. She would make these out of plaster of paris or workable artwork, and she sold them at Red Earth. She's a very good artist. She began to make them, and I began to collect them probably eight, ten years ago. I've made two or three, and this is a Nez Perce cradleboard. Again, 84:00it's beaded on smoked, brain-tanned buckskin. I probably have twenty-plus of these, and this is a more simple design that I could reproduce in beadwork. Some of them are very complicated, and it's hard to replicate them.

I've done probably three or four different tribes of this. I did a Creek and did this Nez Perce and one other one. I've forgotten which other one I did. They are very popular. People like them, and I really, really enjoy doing them. They look very creative.

Little Thunder: Yes, even the shape of the buckskin behind it.

Berryhill: I was going to show you this other fish I did. I don't know if you saw it or not.

Little Thunder: Oh, yes, I think fish are so beautiful. When you see the naturalists' renditions of fish, this is gorgeous.

Berryhill: I've done two or three, and, like I said, the first one I gave to a friend as a birthday present. He's a fly fisherman.

Little Thunder: He has a lot of personality. (Laughs)

Berryhill: Here is the one that I did. I've sewn it on a wooden outline in the shape of a fish and mounted it on that.

Little Thunder: That's really ingenious. Oh, it's beautiful. I would say you probably need to do a couple more like that, too.

Berryhill: I've got that in mind, to do a couple more.

This is a beaded blanket that I do, Navajo blankets. This design is from the Southwest. I saw the original blanket in the Woolaroc Museum in Bartlesville. 85:00Woolaroc is a wonderful museum, has a lot of Native American artifacts there. This was a design that I just fell in love with. I made some pencil drawings of this and came back and beaded it. It's a Navajo Southwest blanket.

I really, really like the pattern and made probably four or five and sold them all, except this one. I really enjoy doing chiefs blankets, first, second, third phase, and all the Navajo blankets that aren't too complicated. Some of them are too complicated to really do a good pattern, but this one turned out very well.

Little Thunder: It's beautiful, and the fluidity of the beads matches the weaving. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Les.

Berryhill: Oh, no, thank you. You're the one that put in all the time and 86:00expertise to do this. This is amazing. Thank you.

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