Oral history interview with Tony Tiger

Little Thunder: This is Julie Pearson-Little Thunder. Today is Friday, September 14, and I'm interviewing Tony Tiger as part of the Oklahoma Native Artists Project, sponsored by the Oklahoma Oral History Research Program at Oklahoma State University. We're at Tony's home in Tahlequah. Tony, you've always had a distinct painting style, and over the last couple of years you've been experimenting with not just mixed media but canvases that are more three- than two-dimensional. You've also been busy reviving the Bacone art program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

Tiger: Yes, my pleasure.

Little Thunder: Where were you born, and where did you grow up?

Tiger: I was born in LA in 1964. My parents lived out there during the Relocation period, and I was the first child born in LA. After LA, we moved back to Oklahoma in 1970, or around that time, and moved to Shawnee, Oklahoma, where my grandmother, who was Sac and Fox, lived. We were introduced to our entire 1:00family and didn't have an idea that our family was that big. We had all the extended relatives and a huge family.

Little Thunder: What did your mom and dad do for a living?

Tiger: My dad was a Baptist minister, and my mother was more of a homemaker. She worked on occasion, as well, doing different things but primarily a homemaker.

Little Thunder: You mentioned your grandparents--

Tiger: Yes, my grandparents. My grandmother was Sac and Fox, and she was full-blood. She probably was born right after statehood. My grandfather was born right before statehood. My grandfather and my grandmother--I'm talking about my mother's mother and my father's father. Those are the grandparents that I really kind of grew up knowing. My grandfather was Muscogee Creek and Seminole. He was 2:00kind of elusive as a child. I met him probably later on in the mid-'70s, and so it was kind of interesting to meet him for the first time.

Little Thunder: Were there any other members of your family involved in the arts, or extended family?

Tiger: I did. I had an older brother who was an artist, probably natural artist. He could draw and paint, but he never really did anything with his work. He did do some work for the tribal newspaper and for the Sac and Fox newspaper, but he never took it beyond that. I wish he would've because he was a gifted artist. He was really the early inspiration for me in wanting to become an artist because I thought it would just be an interesting way to make a living and you wouldn't have to punch clocks and timecards and all that good stuff. He was probably the first inspiration in becoming an artist.

Little Thunder: When did you see your first piece of Native art?

Tiger: My first piece of Native art was probably while we were living on the Standing Rock Reservation in the Dakotas, North Dakota primarily, at a small town called Fort Yates. My father took a pastorate there in the mid-1970s. I was probably about ten years old. It really was probably more historic things, photographs, probably some of the photographs of some of the early photographers of Native art, Native people, really. Later on, seeing some more traditional work by some of the Lakota artists, Oscar Howe. Probably saw one of his pieces early on. Then later on, seeing Allan Houser's work and then Richard West and then a few other artists. Those were primarily the guys who I saw first.

Little Thunder: Back here in Oklahoma.

Tiger: Back in Oklahoma, yes, because we'd go back and forth. We had an opportunity to go to some museums. The Sac and Fox tribe would take their tribal members to museums sometimes. I think we went to the Bartlesville museum up there. There's a museum up there. I remember going up there. I remember seeing a lot of the artworks. Saw some Woody Crumbo prints and Acee Blue Eagle's work and some of the early artists.

Little Thunder: Were you with the rest of your family?

Tiger: I was with the rest of my family, and it was probably pretty early on, too, in like mid-'70s. My brother was there, too, and we probably looked at a few things. It was pretty fascinating because, at that time, growing up in LA and growing up around people that are more urban, you didn't see a lot of tribal 5:00regalia and things like that. Then when we moved back to Oklahoma in early '70s, we began to see that whole culture that we kind of missed out on growing up.

Little Thunder: What was your first experience making art?

Tiger: My first experience making art was probably in the Dakotas. They offered some classes that dealt with art and culture. Back then, I was primarily interested in the outdoors, and I still am. I remember doing some drawings of animals and some horses. My dad still had those in his collection when he passed. Birds and four-legged animals, those types of things.

Little Thunder: What kind of exposure did you have to art in primary school?

Tiger: In primary school, mainly just in books. Back then, the technology was not what we have today, so it was more books and occasional visits to local museums and that type of thing. But mainly just books, magazines, if you had the opportunity to see magazines.

Little Thunder: Not really any art lessons, per se.

Tiger: No, not necessarily art lessons, per se. Just occasional school assignment. "Paint this," "Draw that," and you just did the best you could.

Little Thunder: How about secondary and high school?

Tiger: High school, what's kind of interesting is that I was an athlete growing up, and my family were athletes. That's how we made a distinction on the reservation. We were accepted by becoming athletes and being pretty decent 7:00athletes because it was not easy growing up on the reservation because we were a different tribe and we were outsiders. Being athletes, we were able to be included in all the activities.

Little Thunder: What kinds of athletics did you participate in?

Tiger: I played--gee, I played it all. Baseball, ran track, played football, basketball, and did a little rodeo. I loved the rodeo, but my parents didn't like that. They thought it was too dangerous. I never got hurt riding horses or anything like that, but I broke all kinds of bones and injured myself playing sports. The secondary and high school opportunities were vast.

I went to Standing Rock High School first. They had a pretty good art instructor. I kind of gravitated to that and didn't really produce anything out 8:00of that experience, I don't think, because I was just dabbling in it a little bit and still playing the sports, but when I came to Shawnee (we moved back to Shawnee in '82 from Fort Yates) had an opportunity to start taking some art courses at that time. That was really what fueled my passion, I guess, because I was not a very good student. I think some of my earlier teachers would probably roll over in their grave, if they're still alive, or just roll their eyes to think of Tony Tiger as an assistant art professor now and teaching in his own program. (Laughter)

That experience was really eye-opening to me because I realized I was good at something other than sports, being creative and learning the different processes. William Malone, Bill Malone at Shawnee High School was a teacher 9:00there. Also, Kim Kimerling was also an instructor there, and learned a lot from them. They really encouraged me to continue, to continue to study, and I pretty much did.

Little Thunder: Did you make a conscious decision that you were going to be an artist, or was it just a process?

Tiger: At that time, I was young and rambunctious and didn't listen to many people, like a lot of young people do. I went through a time right after high school that I just went and did my own thing and made some bad decisions, wasted of a lot of time, really. Wasted about seven, eight years just having fun and not really producing anything, even trying to really learn anything. It was 10:00mainly about partying and running around and chasing girls.

Little Thunder: You weren't even selling a few paintings here and there?

Tiger: Not then. Not then, no, but what was interesting about that time is that I still had opportunities to work, and so I worked with Joe Rice. He did these workshops in teaching students how to bead. I got a summer job a couple times, helping him as an aide. I picked up beading from that, so I know how to bead. I can teach those things, and I still do. I was doing that, so I was still around the artwork but just not in a formal manner. I'd draw a little bit and paint a little bit, but nothing really serious. I was still kind of dabbling in it, so I never really left it completely. It was always there.

Little Thunder: At some point you decided you were going to go back to school.

Tiger: That was interesting because I made some bad decisions and really lived a 11:00lifestyle at that time that was not beneficial to life, but I did, I made a decision. I knew that I needed to make some changes, and so I got married. We established a home with my wife, Brenda, and it was good. We enjoyed the time that we had together, (and we're still married now, twenty-two years) but that wasn't enough, just being established in our home.

It wasn't too long after that that I was working in Shawnee at Wolverine Tube. They make copper tubing. One day I was running these machines. What I would do is I'd have this cycle. In between the cycle, you'd have about forty-five 12:00seconds to thirty seconds, so I'd keep a little journal with me and I would draw, just from memory sometimes. Sometimes I'd have a small photograph, and I would draw. One morning, this gentleman came, and he was working behind me. He knew that I was drawing or writing or something in this book. He came over, and he looked, and he said, "Is that yours?" I said, "Yes." He said, "'What are you doing?" I said, "I'm drawing." He said, "Can I look in your book?" I said, "Yes, go ahead."

He looked through the book, and he saw some of the drawings. He says, "If you can draw like this, what the hell are you doing here?" From that time on, I began to ask myself those important questions about, "What am I doing here, because I'm bored out of my mind." Factory work was the same thing over and over again. It wasn't too long after that I quit and began to look at school and enrolled at Seminole State and began to study art again.

Little Thunder: What was the instruction like at Seminole State?

Tiger: Seminole State, the teacher down there, professor is Kelly Kirk, and he did a wonderful job of preparing me and giving me a good foundation about what art could be and what it is. He taught both studio and art history and did a wonderful job. He taught me how to write a little bit and how to think about art and good responses to what I was looking at, and just really fueled the need to go and study further. When I finished there--I made some really good grades, and I was older. I was thirty, thirty-two when I finished, probably. He's the one who really encouraged me to go on and study. He said Oklahoma State had a transfer day that you could go up and take your work and take your portfolio and 14:00talk to the instructors. They would look at it, and they may give you a scholarship. I went up and ended up receiving a scholarship for my undergraduate work.

So I went to Oklahoma State, and it was a good experience. It was a good experience, not just in the arts but in growing up, as well, and understanding responsibility and challenge. It was a wonderful challenge because I commuted from Shawnee to Oklahoma State. It was an hour from my house to the parking lot. Sometimes I'd spend all day taking classes and waiting for another class to start, being patient and learning some of those things, but I did have a wonderful experience at Oklahoma State.

Little Thunder: How did your style or subject matter change there?

Tiger: What's interesting, I think, when you're studying art, for the most part 15:00you really don't necessarily have a style as you begin that process. You're learning processes, and I was. I was just taking it all in and just listening and looking and thinking about the possibilities and learning process.

I was always interested in watercolor and painting thin media, water media. I was interested in transparency and textures, so while I was at Oklahoma State, I took a class with Jack Titus, a wonderful watercolor artist. That's really what kind of grabbed my attention with the intensity of color and the transparency because you can overlap and build depth with the watercolor. That's what he really helped me do.

I think the one guy at Oklahoma State that really was beneficial to me was Mark Sisson. Mark was a drawing professor and printmaking professor, and he's the one 16:00who really began to see some possibilities in what I was doing. Sometimes I'd have an idea, and he says, "Oh, that might not work out. Maybe you ought to try something else." I said, "I think this will," and so I'd talk him into allowing me to go ahead with the project. In the end, I'd come out with a pretty decent project and piece of artwork. That happened a couple of times. I think he was really the one who really helped me to begin to understand that I have something, I had something, and my creativity was something that I could probably build on.

Little Thunder: Were you entering any competitive shows?

Tiger: Actually, I was. While I was at Seminole State, Kelly Kirk encouraged me to enter some competitive, just local shows. I think Wewoka had a show. Seminole 17:00had a show. Holdenville had a show. I entered those and did well. I started winning prizes at those, and it got to the point where I don't think they really liked me coming to their shows. (Laughs)

Little Thunder: Was it with Native subject matter?

Tiger: Primarily, it was. It primarily was Native subject matter, but I don't think everything was Native. I think sometimes I was still kind of experimenting with color movement and forms a little bit. But also at that time I wasn't primarily a painter. I was kind of dabbling in everything. Kelly was a strong clay artist, so I was dabbling in the clay, also. I was making ceramic portraits, and those were pretty popular. I began to market--well, not really market those but sell those after I'd create a piece or two.

Little Thunder: So they were pictures but three-dimensional in ceramic?

Tiger: Yes, they were three-dimensional and very lifelike, sometimes with their 18:00mouth open, eyes, and teeth, the whole works. Every now and then I might stick a small painting inside the mouth, and it would just kind of speak to whatever the individual was expressing.

Little Thunder: Then there was another transition to University of Oklahoma for your master's degree. What motivated that move?

Tiger: Interesting story. Actually, while I was at Seminole State, my mother passed away. She was very instrumental in my education, as she really wanted the best for her children. She had eight children all together, and I was kind of in the middle and kind of the black sheep, I guess. She wanted the best for her children, and she understood that education was going to be one of those things 19:00that would be beneficial to her children. But she passed away when I was at Seminole State, and while I was attending OSU, my father died.

Little Thunder: That's close together.

Tiger: Yes. They were good people. They were good people, and they did well by us, even though neither one of them really were educated, I think both received their GEDs later in life. When my dad was fifty, he went back and got an associate's degree while he was on the Standing Rock Reservation. He was very instrumental and inspirational in helping me to understand that if he could do that at fifty, I could do it at thirty, so I went, and I began to take my studies serious.

But he did die, and it was right at a time when I was pretty close to finishing 20:00my degree at OSU. Actually, I just walked away at that time. I got through the semester, and he passed away, I think a week before finals. I think I even missed a final, but I had talked to the professor, and he understood what was going on. He allowed me to make up the final that I had missed. I walked away from OSU, but I had a wonderful experience there.

I went into youth ministry for a time. I was a youth pastor at a large church in Oklahoma City, and I did that for a couple of years. I was still making artwork at the time. I was still making artwork and got more involved in the ceramics and making the ceramic masks. It was probably about two years before I went back. What I was doing, I was working in Oklahoma City, just down the street 21:00from the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery. One day I walked in there and showed--I think Robert Taylor was the manager then. (Laughter) I had a load of work and said, "Hey, man. Will you take a look at this stuff? I'm interested and am looking for a place to be represented." He was a really nice guy, very cordial, and he said, "Yes, I'll take a look at it."

He looked at it, and he kind of liked what he saw. Then he said, "Can you leave these here?" I said, "Yes, I can leave these here." He said, "I think the owner would like to take a look at this work." I left it there and began a relationship with the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery and Doris Littrell. That was during the part where I was kind of searching and thinking about what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. Like I said, I was still making artwork. I got 22:00curious after I did the youth ministry work for a couple of years and kind of found some relief. I did a degree check to find out how many hours I had on my BFA. Come to find out, I only lacked ten hours, and it was all in foreign language. Yes, foreign language.

I tried to take Spanish at OSU, but the teacher, she never spoke in English. It was all in Spanish. I just could not do that, so I had to withdraw from that class. But I found out that it was just ten hours. I was interested in language at that time, and I knew that OU was offering Muscogee Creek language. I went down and applied, got into OU. I asked OU if I was able to maybe study the Muscogee Creek language and transfer those last ten hours back to OSU to receive my BFA, and they agreed. So that was good.

Little Thunder: Wonderful.

Tiger: I did that, but while I was at OU and working on that degree requirement, I happened to be walking by the school of art. I said, "I need to go walk in here and see what's going on." I walked in and had a chance to talk to one of the painting instructors. I think later on, I met Mary Jo.

Little Thunder: Mary Jo Watson?

Tiger: Mary Jo Watson, yes. She wasn't the director then. She was just one of the professors there. I started taking a class, so I became a half-time student. I was still doing some youth ministry work and making another commute from Shawnee to Oklahoma City to Norman and then back to Shawnee. (Laughter) I did that for about a year, I guess, until I finished my language requirement.

I got connected with a gentleman by the name of George Hughes. He was a professor there in the painting department, and he was from Ghana, Africa. He was a black gentleman and really, really a tremendous artist. He's the guy who, really, at that point in my career, he really began to help me to see that it's not always the most gifted artist who is successful. It's the artist who has the most drive and is in the right place at the right time. He really inspired me to work hard and to study and to learn all I could, and to start exhibiting a little bit, and not being afraid to push things a little further than most people would like.

So I began to really work hard. It wasn't too long after that, after I received my BFA, he said, "You need to apply for graduate school." During that process, I 25:00realized I couldn't go right into graduate school because I had some financial responsibilities I needed to take care of. I stayed out a year, and it was pretty competitive. I knew that there was some competitiveness in getting into the program.

I wanted to do everything myself. I knew there were some students, they were having professional photographs taken of their work, and it was kind of a God thing, I guess. I just said, "If you want me to do this, I'm going to do everything myself. I'm going to take my own photographs, learn how to do that, and do my own writing." I think I had a little bit of help from somebody that re-read what I'd written and gave me some ideas about what to change.

So I applied for graduate school at OU and got in. I had a wonderful time at OU. 26:00At the time, George was still there. George was there. Had a chance to befriend and meet Mary Jo Watson, who was teaching primarily American Indian Art History courses. I had a chance to meet her, and then there was a lot of other artists, Native artists, there at the program. Marwin Begay, Heather Ahtone was there, working on their master's degrees. Gerald Cournoyer was there, Shane Brown was there, and myself.

It wasn't like you were culturally there by yourself. You had people around you who understood where you were coming from and maybe even part of your identity as an individual. We had a wonderful time, and we exhibited together, and we could talk to each other. We never really did any collaborations, but it was 27:00good to bounce ideas off each other and encourage each other. I think we did a couple of group shows together, and so we had a pretty good time at OU.

Little Thunder: Were you thinking at all about the possibility you might teach, as well?

Tiger: I did. That's really when I began to kind of think about teaching. We had talked about finances a little bit earlier and trying to be responsible. At that time, I wasn't making a lot of money, but I was selling artwork and my wife was working full-time. We began to sell a little bit of artwork at that time. Also, some different individuals would encourage me. "You ought to teach. That way we could help pay some of your tuition." I was taking a class with the director at the time. He said, "You can write anything you want to, to me. Write me a letter 28:00about art."

So I wrote him a letter and asked him for a job. (Laughter) I said, "I'd like to have a job. I'd like to teach one of the courses here." He responded to it. He says, "All right. Next semester you can teach a painting class or a drawing class." I ended up being a TA as a grad student and taught beginning drawing, beginning painting, art for non-majors. Then I worked up in one of the wood shop labs and taught students how to use the machinery and build stretchers and build other types of stretchers.

Little Thunder: That's a great teaching background to have. After you graduated, were you sort of primarily trying to earn your living as an artist?

Tiger: I think that was my plan. Well, it was my plan. It was my plan to do that. My plan, out of graduate school, was to primarily make a living at my art. 29:00At the time, the economy was probably doing well enough that an artist probably could make a living off his art.

Little Thunder: Because we're talking mid-'90s, here?

Tiger: Well, 2007, actually, was when I finished grad school. It was good, and I was selling artwork. I was going to shows and doing...

Little Thunder: What were some of the shows?

Tiger: I was doing the Eiteljorg [Museum of American Indians and Western Art] at that time. I'd go out to the Santa Fe Market, the SWAIA [Southwestern Association for Indian Arts] Market and show there. I was showing at Doris' at the same time, at the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery. Then I was also getting into different competitions, any competition I could, basically. I was going down to 30:00Florida and showing in the museum market that they have down there. Actually, I was doing that. I was on my way back from that market in Florida--

Little Thunder: What's the name of the market?

Tiger: It's the name of their museum [Ah-Tah-Thi-Ki]. I don't want to butcher the name, but it's at the Big Cypress Indian museum there on the reservation, the Seminole reservation. I was on the way home, and I received a call from Ruthe Blalock Jones.

Kind of a funny story. Every time I'd see her, she never remembered me, I don't think, from the time I was at Bacone. I was there for a short time, but every time I would see her, I'd tell her, "Hey, I'm getting ready to work on my master's degree." "What's your name?" and I'd say, "Tony Tiger. I went to Bacone." "Oh, okay. Yes, I remember you." (Laughter) Every time I'd see her at a market, I'd just kind of refresh her mind that I was working on my master's degree.

Then finally one day I was in Santa Fe the year before, and I'd said, "I'm graduating in May. I'll be looking for a job." She goes, "Oh, okay. Who are you again?" (Laughter) But it paid off because in the fall of 2007, I'm returning home from the Seminole Reservation in Florida, and she gave me a call and said, "Hey Mr. Tiger. Is this Mr. Tiger?" I said, "Yes, it is." She introduced herself again and said, "I would like you to come and teach at Bacone as an adjunct."

We were still living in Shawnee, and I agreed, so I drove from Shawnee to Bacone to Muskogee, probably about a hundred miles or so, twice a week to teach two classes. I taught the American Indian Arts and Craft course, and I also talked her into allowing me to teach a special course on concepts. I think I had four 32:00students. Four students.

The program at that time at Bacone, it was definitely not right. Few students. A lot of students didn't even know that they had an art program. The students that were there, they were good students, and they were willing to learn. We had a good time. I had a good time teaching the small amount of students that we had. Then at the end of the semester she said, "I'm retiring. You want this job?" I said, "Well, I'll talk to somebody about it. I'm not sure if they're going to give it to me, but I'll talk to them about a job." (Laughter) She talked to whoever she needed to talk to, and then they asked me to come in for an interview. I talked my way into a job at Bacone College as their art director, and because I have my master's degree, I'm an assistant professor.

Little Thunder: That's wonderful. So you had some history at Bacone already?

Tiger: I did have some history, and it actually went back further than that because my grandfather, he went to school at Bacone. Had a wonderful experience there. He understood the ideas behind education and knowledge and that that was going to be very beneficial to his grandchildren. He always wanted someone to go to school at Bacone. I did go to Bacone right out of high school, (I didn't mention that earlier) but I didn't stay very long. It was in 1984 in the fall, and I just graduated high school.

At that time, too, I think they were in a transition period from when Ruthe had taken over and Dick West was on his way out. I had Dick for a class and probably not the best situation for a freshman to be in a class where there was a lot of leeway. I don't think I took a lot from that class. And then Ruthe was teaching 34:00some drawing courses, which I took. Even that, there wasn't enough going on on the campus to really keep my attention, so I only stayed for one semester. Because of some of the issues with the classes, I realized that I could probably get more out of going to the library. Basically, that's what I did. I didn't return the spring semester and just began to live the life that I lived during that time.

Little Thunder: Now that you're art director and you're teaching these classes at Bacone, is your work with the students impacting your work at all?

Tiger: I think that as a professor of art, it causes you to think more closely about what you're doing as an artist. Before, my ideas were make a lot of 35:00artwork so I could go sell at these markets and to collectors. Now that I have fewer opportunities, less time to make art, it's more precise. I'm dealing with what I really want to do, new ideas that I have, and so I'm more precise and particular about what I'm doing. Even though it may be small, there's still something there that I'm trying to challenge myself by thinking of design elements or even applications of paint, really thinking about the small piece in that, "Is the process or the content worthy of taking it to a larger scale?" That's kind of what I'm doing today.

But the students, I don't really think they inspire me to do work. Probably just the idea of not having enough time to work causes me to really value my time. 36:00They'll tell you, too. I tell them, "My time is money, and time is important." They know if they want to talk to me, they have a limited chance, an opportunity to talk to me. I do make myself available to them, but I'm working, and they know that I'm working.

Little Thunder: What do you try to communicate to them in terms of art instruction?

Tiger: I think the major point that I like to make (and it's not even to just the art students but to every student who comes in because we do have a mixture of non-majors with majors) is that they're in the educational portion of their career, no matter what you're doing. This is the time for you to really learn and to take your high school education to the next level. You will utilize a lot of this information as a student, whatever it is.

Because we're at a little art school, they have an opportunity to study a lot of different things and to grasp a lot of different knowledge. I really encourage my students to think more seriously about their education, if it's in the arts or if not, in some other area, so that they can really be able to do what they want to do once they get out into the professional areas.

Because not only do I paint, but because of my paying attention to other areas in the arts, I'm able to do other things. Not only do I make art, but I teach. I can lecture a little bit more. I curate exhibitions, do a little bit more of that, as well. It's not just about making art, but it's also about what I'm doing in the art world away from just making artwork. I think that's very important. I think paying attention and trying to gain all the information that 38:00I could, even from the art history courses, it's really helped me to do those things.

Little Thunder: Is there still a Native art component to the program?

Tiger: There is a Native art component to the program. There's a class called American Indian Arts and Craft, and the AIS [American Indian Studies] degree teaches that more as a lecture-theory course. We had an opportunity to go just pure theory and look at books and read information about American Indian art. As a studio professor, I really wanted to make sure we still held onto some of those techniques, so we still offer a studio course in beading. We deal with some beading; we bring in some potters; we bring in basket weavers. This coming semester we're going to bring in Molly Murphy, who works in soft materials and 39:00beads. She's going to be a visiting artist. Michael Elizondo Jr. is actually teaching that course this semester. He's a recent graduate of OU with his master's degree. The idea of Native art is still alive at Bacone.

Little Thunder: I know you have a friendship with Bobby Martin, and it's been important to you, personally, but also I think you guys have collaborated a bit. Can you talk about how you and Bobby met?

Tiger: Oh, yes. I met Bob, actually, through Ruthe. The first semester I came over, she allowed me to organize the student exhibition. I didn't really know anybody in the area. We work on a limited budget, being a small school, so we try to utilize professionals in our own area, northeast Oklahoma. She suggested that we use Bob Martin to come and judge the exhibition. I said, "Okay," and I 40:00really didn't know Bob.

Little Thunder: Was he still at NSU [Northeastern State University]?

Tiger: At that time, I think he had just moved to John Brown University. I think his first year there was my first year at Bacone. I didn't know him. I didn't know his work, either. He exhibited a piece in the show along with--actually, I think we had a couple of pieces by Ruthe and a couple of pieces by him out in the foyer, and then inside the small gallery was our student show. I saw his work, and it incorporated photographs and text. I thought that was pretty interesting because I'd never really seen too much of that from a Native artist. I guess there were a few who were doing that.

He came over and judged the show. We began to talk. We're both Muscogee Creek, 41:00and we both were kind of older when we went back to school. We definitely had a passion for the artwork and for teaching and for people, and we also have a religious background that we both agree with. We could meet and connect on a lot of different ways, elements, so we became friends. It wasn't too long after that that someone asked me to show at Bacone because they wanted to know who their new director was, after I became the director at Bacone.

Someone came, and they asked--one of the professors here on campus, they said, "We'd like to see some of your work. When are you going to exhibit?" Because by that time I had already curated a couple of exhibitions by--I think Tom Fields the photographer came in, and he did a show. I think the next year, we did an 42:00exhibition with three ladies: Anita Fields, Heidi BigKnife, and Sylvia Nitti-Hunter. They came in and did a female show. Wonderful time. Then someone asked if I would do something.

I could've did a one-man show, but I said, "No, I want to bring somebody else in." By then, I had seen a few pieces of Bob's. I asked him if he'd like to do a two-man show, so we did a two-man show at Bacone. Then because he also worked at John Brown, (they have a nice exhibition space) the show started at Bacone, and then it went to John Brown University. Then I think we showed it again someplace, so we had three opportunities to show together, same work. We found that we could work together and had common values, and we could stand each other. (Laughter) We've continued to collaborate, and we continue to collaborate 43:00to this day.

Little Thunder: You did a show at the Capitol in 2010. What was the title and theme of the show?

Tiger: That show was titled Full Consciousness, and it really speaks to the idea of how mankind is created. Not only do we have a physical body, but we also have a mental capacity to learn and to understand, and then also we have a spiritual component to who we are. That's what that was really about. It was about the full idea of who man is. I had a wonderful time putting work up, getting work ready for that.

Little Thunder: How many works did you make?

Tiger: Oh, I think there were about a dozen pieces, maybe a few more.

Little Thunder: Mostly new pieces?

Tiger: Not really. It was more retrospective, pieces about two, three years old. I had a chance to show some new work along with some older pieces, but mainly, primarily, new work. Had some nice comments. I was really new at Bacone, too, 44:00and so I did a lot. I had a lot set up, thinking about making a living just as an artist. I had these things set up before I even agreed to become the director and teach at Bacone. I had these things right after another in one year, so I had a lot going on at that time: teaching, directing, making artwork, and exhibiting. I was a very busy man.

Little Thunder: The selling part of the art business is sometimes the trickiest. What's the best business advice you ever got?

Tiger: The best business advice that I have ever received, while I was at the Oklahoma Indian Art Gallery, there was a number of artists in that group: Robert Taylor, Merlin Little Thunder, Virginia Stroud, Jay Benham, Benjamin Harjo Jr., 45:00and a few others. These people, even though I was the young guy and was working on a master's degree, they welcomed me, and we talked. A lot of those people gave me advice and encouraged me to continue. That was really the main thing, was that they encouraged me to continue. I watched them. I think Robert Taylor was probably the most instrumental in giving me advice about selling and pricing things and what he thought. Actually, there's a Robert Taylor on that wall. He was probably the most instrumental, and it was not just one thing that he said. 46:00It was all that he had said.

That was pretty interesting because earlier as a young artist, I think, when I was dabbling in the arts and I was doing more beadwork and I was interested in art making, I had approached a few artists who were older, and they wouldn't give me the time of day. I would ask them a question, and they would just kind of blow me off and say, "I learned this stuff on my own, and you're going to go learn this stuff on your own, and I'm not going to give you any help."

I didn't have that reaction there at the Oklahoma City Indian Art Gallery, and I really appreciated that. It was a very important aspect to my professional career. So, now, that same philosophy, I kind of hold. I really try to hang onto that philosophy. It's not just about me and what I'm doing. It's about what's going on around me in the art world.

You're looking at my house, and you see all the work that I've collected from 47:00other artists. Just last night, Michael Elizondo Jr. came to my house to stay because he lives in Oklahoma City and I offered a bedroom. He said, "Yes, I'll stay." He came in kind of late in the evening, and he said, "Hey, I've got a couple pieces of artwork in my car." I said, "Well, bring them in! Bring them in. We'll take a look at them." (Laughter) He had just entered the holiday show that the Cherokee Nation puts on, and he won a Judge's Choice ribbon for a painting he has. That was the painting that I liked. I guess he brought them in because he wanted to trade something, (Laughter) so we ended up trading a couple pieces of artwork. We traded some artwork, so I have another piece now from another artist.

I think something I really enjoy is I can barter my artwork for somebody else's 48:00artwork, and we both get something good. But it's also about building and supporting other artists and their ideas and really just trying to be supportive of the art world. I don't think that was always the way, (it was so competitive) but I think that attitude is beginning to change. Hopefully, that's something that I'll be remembered for: trying to change that attitude of exclusion, to try to promote the ideas of contemporary Native work. I have a lot of good friends who are artists, and so we're continuing to work on some projects, even now.

Little Thunder: I notice that you're in an exhibit that's just going around right now, Changing Hands [Art Without Reservation 3]. Would you like to talk 49:00about that exhibit?

Tiger: Yes, that'd be a good topic. It's really a wonderful opportunity to be a part of that exhibition. I believe it's eighty-five artists, over a hundred pieces of artwork. The exhibition opened back in June of 2012 at the Museum of Art and Design in New York City. Ellen Taubman is the co-curator. She primarily did a lot of the leg work. This is the third installment. I'm not sure if it's the last installment, but I think it is. They did the Southwest artists first, and it's been a decade since the first exhibition. Then they did the Central Plains artists, and now they're doing the Eastern artists. It was very, very interesting to go to New York City. We went for the opening.

Little Thunder: Was it your first visit?

Tiger: It was my first trip, yes. It was my first trip, but I'm definitely a 50:00rural kind of guy. (Laughter) I like the open spaces, and I like the fresh air and the landscape of eastern Oklahoma. Going to New York City, I really gained a great appreciation for Oklahoma, (Laughter) but it was interesting. It was interesting, and we had an opportunity to do all the things, the sightseeing, and had an opportunity to visit the Met, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, also MOMA [Museum of Modern Art]. We did that, and then we went to the opening. Then we did all the other New York tourist things. Went down to the 9/11 Memorial. We did that, and then we went to Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty. Ate some expensive food, rode in some cabs, some death rides in cabs. (Laughter) Interesting times, but definitely had a good time.

To be able to take part in the exhibition, it's really, I think, what artists live for, to be included in some of these major exhibitions. This work, this body of work deals with mainly contemporary Native artists or contemporary art created by Native artists and not necessarily two-dimensional work. A lot of it was conceptual ideas, sculpture, three-dimensional work. Very interesting to see that type of work from Native artists. There were a few emerging artists and some established artists. Primarily, not everyone was educated with an art background, but I think most were.

It was very interesting to see the ideas the artists from the East had. I heard that it was probably one of the stronger shows of the three, but that's 52:00subjective. It was very interesting. A lot of mixed media, video, and new materials that artists were using: wax, found objects, fibers, but not woven. Sometimes it would just be suspended. Then taking some of the old media and weaving photographs, different things like that. Very powerful exhibition, I think.

It'll travel for the next three and a half years to, I believe, eight different venues. I think one of the venues is in Canada. Right now, it's not coming to Oklahoma, but we're hoping that they might work something out where it can come to Oklahoma. I think the closest right now would probably be Indianapolis to the Eiteljorg Museum. The other closest venue would be Santa Fe at the [Museum of 53:00Contemporary Native Arts].

Little Thunder: That sounds wonderful. It needs to come to Oklahoma. (Laughs)

Tiger: Yes, it does. It does.

Little Thunder: Let's talk a little bit about your creative process and techniques. Are you primarily working with acrylic on canvas?

Tiger: Right now, no. I don't think I've worked on a canvas piece in quite a while. If I do, it's not a stretch canvas, a typical light-weight canvas stretcher. I like the firmness of board because--

Little Thunder: Masonite board.

Tiger: Masonite board. If I want to work on canvas for the texture, I will glue it down to a piece of board, whether it's wood or just a Masonite, over a three-dimensional structure. I really do, I like the firmness of it, and then I 54:00don't have worry about someone sticking their finger through it, or somebody accidentally doing something to the surface. It's kind of rigid, and I like that.

Little Thunder: Acrylics, then?

Tiger: Acrylics, primarily acrylics, yes. Earlier I stated that I was really interested in watercolor. At OSU, I did a lot of watercolor, took a few watercolor courses and some special studies with the watercolor instructor. Later on, I realized that the watercolor itself would lose its intensity when you applied it to paper. I really like the intensity of color. Maybe it's about my own personality, but I think a lot of it, too, has something to do with the regalia that Native people wear, very beautiful combinations of colors. I think 55:00Native people want to be recognized, and so those colors really attribute to that. I also like the colors, the intensity of color.

I was painting on paper, and one day--I think it was when I was at OU, and it may have been George Hughes. He said, "You ought to paint with--" because at the time, I was painting with watercolor quite a bit. He said, "You ought to try painting with acrylics. You can do the same thing with acrylics that you do with watercolor, but once an acrylic dries, it's permanent, and the intensity, a lot of times, stays. You won't lose it. You can build up or even take away if you wanted to when it's still wet on paper."

So I began to experiment with acrylics. There's a lot of different things you can do with it. It's a very versatile medium, a lot of different polymers you can add to it. If you want to extend it, there's extenders that you can make it 56:00work a little bit like oil paint. You can thin it down. You can change the sheen. You can make it thick, and it's transparent. There's a lot of different things that you can do with acrylics. I think that's probably why I like it. Oil paint dries, it takes a little while for oil paint to dry. Maybe I'm not that patient. Acrylics is something that you can paint with very quickly, also. I think that's why I really like it. Right now, primarily, acrylic paint.

Little Thunder: I'm glad you mentioned Native regalia because it used to be that some of your bright colors reminded me of patchwork a little bit, Seminole patchwork, but I see you incorporating some ribbonwork designs right around the image. Do you want to talk about when you started doing that?

Tiger: Oh, sure. It goes back to, I think, the ideas behind where I grew up. I 57:00was born in LA, and we grew up mainly around urban Indians. We didn't see a whole lot of regalia, but later on as we moved back to Oklahoma in the early '70s, we began to attend dances and some cultural events, and we had access to more traditional dress. The colors that I saw and the patterns that I saw, the motifs, they were being used in the patchwork, and how they used them. Different cultures used them differently. I think the Sac and Fox used them a little bit more vertical. Then there was a combination--there was geometric shapes along with very organic lined images. I was really kind of drawn to that because I am such an outdoorsman. I like to hunt and fish and love spending time outside when I can. I even take my students outside, and we do organic observations in class.

The outdoors has definitely influenced that idea behind some of the designs I incorporate now and even learning how to do that. My grandmother, who was full-blood Sac and Fox, she lived north of Shawnee. I'd visit her every now and then. I asked her, "How do the Sac and Fox come up with their ideas for ribbonwork designs?" She grabbed a newspaper, and she grabbed a pair of scissors, and she said, "This is how they do it." She folded the paper in half, and she began to cut away and cut a simple design. Then she opened it up and said, "Well, this is how they start."

That idea, it never really left me. Even now, and probably even more now, I'm thinking about taking those woven designs, and creating my own, and building designs, and incorporating into the work and taking it even further. Even 59:00thinking about new media, illuminating things from behind is a new area that I'm kind of looking at right now. Taking transparent images and some nice lines, line work, and then illuminate it from the back.

Little Thunder: It wouldn't be on board at that point?

Tiger: It would probably be on Plexiglas.

Little Thunder: Interesting.

Tiger: Plexiglas. The new media, the new ideas, new concepts that we're coming up with are very interesting. That's part of what you see as an artist. I don't think we steal things from other artists, but we can be inspired by other artists and by what they're doing, to see the possibilities of what you could do with that and take it to the next level in your own work.

Little Thunder: You're also doing some three-dimensional painting.

Tiger: I am. I'm taking not just the two-dimensional form of equal sides, 60:00rectangles, but taking and creating three-dimensional triangles and rectangles and all the other geometric shapes that are not necessarily rectangles, and also creating recessed areas and raised areas. It's a little difficult to work with because you're so familiar with working in two dimensions. As you begin to work with three, you have to think about more space and more planes to work in. It's a challenge, but I really like it. As people come in and look at the new pieces, they definitely make an impact. That's the first piece that people mainly walk to, is to the new work that I'm doing that is not rectangular.

Little Thunder: You mentioned how one of your professors honed in on this, you 61:00loved color, and acrylics would be a good step. Since you started using acrylics, do you think your palette has changed much?

Tiger: It probably has a little bit. Even now, I think I'm still exploring color. Color is something that is very mysterious. It takes a long time to fully understand combinations of color sometimes, especially if you do a lot of layers of things. There's a lot of layering that goes into the work that I'm doing right now.

Even underpainting, underpainting and adding colors on top of colors, and next to colors, it really is a challenge, and to be satisfied with it. Not only that, but some of the underpainting that I'm doing when I pour on wet artwork, I may use some other type of material to hold the paint there and infuse and to create 62:00other rectilinear lines in the underpainting. Coming back and painting on top of those with designs is really, it's part of exploration that an artist does.

Right now, I'm working on some small pieces just to kind of see whether or not this design element or this combination of colors is worthy to take it to a larger piece. I'm doing a lot of that right now. From this small body of work, larger pieces will be created, I think, in the next couple of years, next couple of months or whenever, and then also incorporating other ideas, concepts, with illumination.

Little Thunder: What is your creative process from the time you get an idea?

Tiger: My creative process begins with reading, writing, observation. I like to 63:00read. I didn't like to read as a kid. As a child, I did not like to read. I see this a lot in young men. We don't read, primarily. We like to watch and play sports and be active and be outside. Reading is something that I see, even in my students, that the guys don't like to do a lot of that, so I'm constantly encouraging them to read and to build a vocabulary. As I read more, primarily, the main book that I read is the Bible, but I like to read philosophy and different people who speak about philosophy and religion. History, I like to read a lot of history. That information plays an important part in the content of what I'm doing.

I think that every artist works from a different viewpoint. It's not always, 64:00"Well, I'm going to paint. I'm going to just come up with an idea and paint something." I think subject matter, content, and form are the three components. Some just start painting, and then something evolves from that. Some people have an idea about an image. For me, it's a little bit of everything. It just depends on what I'm doing, from visually researching things, from nature or photographs. I like photographs, old photographs. Then also, the writing that I'm reading plays an important part. Now I'm incorporating a little bit more text in my work, not a lot, definitely dates. If you look at some of my current work, there's dates incorporated into it--

Little Thunder: Historical dates?

Tiger: --historical dates, primarily, to kind of get a sense of time.

Little Thunder: And that will trigger associations?

Tiger: Yes. What's interesting, too, is that for Native Americans, dates mean something specific, but to non-Natives, they also represent something that's 65:00significant to them. I've had that happen a couple times. I thought that was pretty interesting, that for me it represented a certain time, but also for them, for non-Natives, it also represented a different time and event in their life or in history. The process is definitely--there's not one element that I gravitate to. It's kind of a combination of different things.

Not only that, it's the collaborations, the opportunities to speak with other artists. I'm a part of a group called the Southeastern Indian Artists Association, or SEIAA. There's quite a few Native artists that we get together. Last night, we actually had a meeting and talked about some issues and talked about art. Primarily, most of the artists have some type of art background or art education.

It's kind of interesting that we can really bounce off some pretty challenging ideas around each other and see where we could take those. It's really fun. We have a good time doing that, and there's a strong body of artists there. Those are some of the artists that I also use when I curate exhibitions. Just to name a few of the artists, Bobby Martin, Troy Jackson, Joseph Erb, Roy Boney, and now Michael Elizondo Jr. There's a few other artists, too, that are around that we'd like to incorporate into different shows but, primarily, those gentlemen that I get to see on a regular basis.

I don't think we necessarily feed off each other or borrow from each other, but we do encourage each other with what we're doing, ourselves, and it gives them the courage to really kind of push the envelope a little bit. Right now with 67:00Troy Jackson, he works with me at Bacone, and we see each other every week. We always try to spend a little time talking about artwork and what's going on and what we could do together or just whatever and encourage each other. The new artists, too, that idea of not excluding but including young artists is very important to that collaboration, to that effort as we move forward as artists.

Little Thunder: What's your creative routine?

Tiger: My creative routine (Laughter). It's challenged now that I'm a director of a small program and I teach. (Laughter) I teach quite a few hours. It's been very, very good that Bacone understands that I need to spend some time in my studio, so they're very lenient with my time. I try to give as much as I can to Bacone, but I also need to spend time in my studio. In my garage I have set up a 68:00table saw building area where I can build things. It's not perfect, but it's doable. I'll open my garage door, pull up my truck, and take my cutting instruments out there, and I'll cut with my miter box and my table saw and other hand tools. I do enjoy it when the weather is nice and the temperature is agreeable. I enjoy being outside and seeing fresh air, birds, and all that good stuff.

I work in the house, as well, have a finishing studio, which is basically an extra bedroom, but it's set up pretty nice. Have a nice easel and a nice rack. It has all my materials and equipment in it. Then even sometimes in this living room where we're sitting, the small pieces, I may do some finishing in here because I have some nice windows that give me some good light. I like to get up 69:00early and take a walk, take my dog for a walk, make a pot of coffee, generally pray, do a little reading, and then I'm ready to go. Then I start painting and usually spend the rest of the day painting.

Sometimes my wife will see me in the one spot when she leaves, and she'll come home for lunch, and she'll say, "You're still in that same spot!" (Laughter) I say, "I'm still working." Then she'll leave and go back to work, then she'll come home, and I'm still in that same spot. She said, "Didn't you do anything today?" I said, "Yes, I worked on five pieces today!" (Laughter) Sometimes she doesn't realize the work that I do, but she likes the benefits of what we receive from it. (Laughter) The process is definitely good. I really enjoy what I do. Being able to be creative and use the talents and the gifts that the Creator has given me is really worth living.

Little Thunder: And you have a project you're excited about that's coming up.

Tiger: Yes, right now I have numerous things that I'm working on. I'm looking at different curation opportunities, so I'm talking to some different people in different cities outside of Oklahoma about curating some contemporary Native shows. Don't want to say anything right now because they're not finalized, but definitely looking outside of Oklahoma. Minneapolis is a city that I'm interested in. Chicago is another place that I'm interested in. Maybe LA. Seattle is another place I'm interested in curating some Native work. From primarily the northeast Oklahoma area, I think we have a really strong body of artists here, so I'm thinking about trying to get us out further than just into Oklahoma or even Santa Fe. Actually, repeat your question again.

Little Thunder: You mentioned that you had an upcoming project you were excited about.

Tiger: Oh, the project, yes, yes. Curation is definitely something I do, and then also the collaboration I'm working on with Bob Martin. I spent some time at his studio. He has a nice little place just east of Tahlequah, here, along the Illinois River, so we go out and hang out sometimes and talk. He had some metal, some sheet metal with some Dawes Roll names cut out with a plasma cutter. He had created a piece for the water show that I helped co-curate along with the America Meredith and Heather Ahtone. The water show, we brought together 72:00eighteen artists, contemporary artists, from Oklahoma. They had some kind of connection where they lived in Oklahoma.

The H2OK water show dealt with Native issues with the water in Oklahoma. We had printmakers, painters, but Mr. Martin created a water piece. He built a box. Then he put a water pump in the box, and he had a piece of steel that was horizontal, and it had these holes cut out. Then he had two little holes that looked like maybe photographs could fit inside. He's also working in encaustic on paper. It's a wax on paper. He created a light box with water running through the cut-out holes of the steel. Then he incorporated two small paintings, encaustic pieces, into the openings, but he also illuminated it from inside. It 73:00had water and the illumination and metal and steel and paper and wood, so it was a very strong piece in the water show.

He had some other steel laying around his studio. We were in there talking one day after I just came back from giving a noontime lecture at the Philbrook. Christina Burke had just put up an exhibition called Seeking the Sacred, and so she had some religious work and spiritual work from different artists from the area. She asked me if I'd give a noontime lecture on it, and so I did. It was a subjective response to what I saw.

After that, we kind of had this idea of spirituality, thinking about our ancestors and how they had passed on their belief to us. It's not the typical Native belief in spiritualism. More of it's Christian. I saw the names, and some 74:00of those guys were some of the first Christians in his family. I said, "Why don't we build a gravehouse, a Muscogee Creek gravehouse, in full size?" The idea just began to grow. What we're going to do is we're going to build a Muscogee Creek gravehouse, and then we're going to attach the steel with the cut-out names to the openings around the sides of the gravehouse. Then we're going to use wood to kind of make it look like a structure, an older structure.

Then we're going to illuminate the inside of the gravehouse with light. On the top where the roof would be, what we're going to do is we're going to use a transparent, maybe Plexiglas or maybe some other type of transparent plastic. 75:00The shingles are going to be individual paintings, drawings, photographs of our ancestors and have that illuminated. An interesting piece, definitely conceptual, incorporating light and drawings, paintings, photographs but not a whole lot of painting. Just more construction and concept. Very interesting piece, I think. That's what we're working on right now.

It's very different, but we got those ideas from looking at contemporary work and even non-Native work, just ideas. That's kind of where we're heading right now, and I'm very excited about it. Also, Mr. Martin is working on an exhibition down at the Sequoyah National Research Center on the University of 76:00Arkansas-Little Rock campus. He's going to curate an exhibition of Native printings, different types of prints. He's going to draw from the Bill Wiggins collection. Mr. Wiggins didn't realize how many prints that he has. He has quite a few, so he's going to use a few of his pieces. Some of the artists who are in Mr. Wiggins collection, he's asked if they would contribute a printed piece to the collection.

Little Thunder: Do you have a piece?

Tiger: I'm actually getting ready to work on it. (Laughter) Yes, I was notorious for bringing it to the very end, so I'm working on the monotype for the piece. Actually, I'm going out to Bob's studio on Sunday, this coming Sunday, and work on some of that. I'm very, very excited about being an artist right now and being creative and being part of an art world of really good artists. I'm 77:00excited about the future.

Little Thunder: If there's anything else you'd like to add or talk about, we can do that. Otherwise, we'll move on and look at your artwork.

Tiger: All right. Just really in closing, it's been a good trip. The opportunities I've had to make something of my life, really it goes back to all the individuals in my life, not just my parents but the instructors, the professors at the institutions, other artists, and family members who are no 78:00longer with us. I have a really blessed life. The Creator has given me a life to live, and I've been able to really receive major blessings, I think, from that and from a spiritual life and understanding who we are as people, and being able to do the things I've done and still plan to do. I was probably the least likely out of my family to succeed as an individual, definitely to be able to go as far as I did in my education. A lot of individuals played a part in it, and I'm very 79:00thankful for that.

I just encourage anybody out there who may see this material. My tears aren't tears of weakness. They are tears of appreciation for what I do have. If any Native person sees this information, sees this video, I just want to encourage them that what happened to our people in the past, it was tragic that it happened the way it did and that many of our people no longer exist. Whole tribes and whole clans are gone, but we are still here. We're still here, and the Creator gave us that. He gave us an opportunity to live and to express ourselves and to remind people that as a Native people, we still matter. We can 80:00still contribute to this world and to the understanding that there is more to life than just the physical, and we should definitely be passing on what we know to the next generation so that they, too, can find their place in the world and in their occupation.

I just want to say thanks to Oklahoma State University because I did, I received a wonderful opportunity to study art there. It was really just a major, major blessing to be able to do that. They helped prepare me to go on and take the next step in my art career. To be able to say that is just wonderful. I'm very pleased with how life has turned out so far, and I'm looking forward to the future.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that, Tony. Would you like to talk about this piece?

Tiger: Yes, this piece is an acrylic painting on stretched canvas over board or panel. It's twenty-four inches wide by forty-eight inches tall. The piece is titled Friendship and Protection. You'll see this red outline, an area of an individual. Some people look at it and don't necessarily see the individual first.

The content of the piece really deals with the dates in the piece, so 1789 is when the Sac and Fox were first introduced to a relationship to the US government. There were some Sacs at one of the forts. I think it's Fort Harmon. 82:00They were just there at the fort at this time when the US government was trying to create these relationships with some of the local Natives in the area. Really, they had no authority to sign anything, but because they were at the fort, they signed a document or put their mark on it: "We had Sac and Fox here," or, "We had Sacs here," or Meskwaki or the Foxes. "We had a group here."

By them being there, they just basically initiated them into a relationship with the federal government and began to turn and change their way of life. As that relationship continued to foster many, many, many thousands, maybe millions of 83:00acres were ceded away to the US government. In reading some of the treaty, I read in the treaty this one major part in the first paragraph, it talked about friendship and protection, so it's not necessarily a good thing because of all the land that was ceded away at that time.

Later on, in the 1830s, the Blackhawk, they call it a war. It really wasn't a war. It was Blackhawk was trying to free his people and take them to freedom. A lot of the people died in that incident, and some of the political leaders wrote about there was really never a war. It was just them trying to chase this group of people down. In the end, many of the people were slaughtered at the Missouri 84:00River. Blackhawk and his entourage survived, but many, many, many, even thousands of people died in that so-called war.

So the piece is filled with a lot of icons and symbolism. First, the date there, 1492. Native people, they don't necessarily always see that date as a positive thing. Then you see that Fort Harmon date, the 1789. Then 1776, definitely, the US ratification of becoming a country. In 1907, Indian Territory became Oklahoma. There's even some information there about that. This group of people, the Sac and Fox, when they came from Kansas to Oklahoma after being run out of 85:00the Illinois area and the Missouri River were given a small patch of land in northern Iowa. Wasn't all that nice.

Then eventually, they were moved over to Kansas. Part of the group went back to Iowa, and then part of the group--because Kansas really didn't care to have any Native people in their new state, were trying to forcibly remove Native people from their state. This group of people who stayed, Sac and Fox who stayed in Kansas, heard about Indian Territory, so in 1869, created a treaty with the US government and were given some land in Indian Territory. That actually happened in 1867, and in 1869, they made the physical move down to Oklahoma. They were 86:00given land from the Creeks. The Creeks participated in the Civil War on the South's side, and because of what they did, they took land from the Creeks, and they sold it to the Sac and Fox. That long strip of land that the Sac and Fox have in Oklahoma was actually Creek land.

The idea behind it, there's a lot of different symbols and some icons there. You see the concentric circles. Those represent life. The outer circle represents the physical. The inner circle there, it represents the mind, the soul. Inside the circle is the red which represents the spirit of the individual.

They're laying on top of each other, representing time, the different 87:00generations that passed before us. Even the outline of the piece represents more of an idea of how we see ourselves as Native people. Not everybody sees us--we see ourselves the same. I think there's a very strong, I would call it a romance with our identity as Native people. There's strong belief, and we want to retain our culture. Even looking back at that time, it was very hard to make a living and to live on the land. Modern American Indian, I think we're very spoiled, and we're very accustomed to the new trends of technology.

As the Sac and Fox moved into Oklahoma at that time, they were also introduced 88:00very closely to other tribes, and, really, Oklahoma is kind of a melting pot of Native peoples. Talk about America being the melting pot of the world, Oklahoma is definitely a melting pot of Native tribes. Right now, there's thirty-nine state- and federal-recognized tribes in Oklahoma.

At that time, the Sac and Fox were very close to the Creeks and also just north of the Seminole reservations. My ancestors became friends with Seminoles. My grandmother who is full-blood Sac and Fox, she ended up marrying a Seminole man, so we have Seminole blood as well as the Sac and Fox blood. Then my mother, who is Sac and Fox and Seminole, ended up marrying my father who was Creek and 89:00Seminole. So I'm Sac and Fox, Seminole, and Creek, but I'm enrolled in the Sac and Fox tribe.

So that's what the different little motifs there. There's a woodland motif that runs along the left side there that's painted blue and purple, and then you have light blue designs going horizontally across the top. Those represent the Seminole patchwork designs that are readily used in the clothing. They kind of represent how the two different tribes use their designs, one vertical and one horizontal.

The stars represent the different states that the Native people came from. Actually, there's quite a few stars on the piece. Even on the sides, there's a dimension to the sides. They represent the states that the tribes came from when they came to Indian Territory. They were looking for a place where Native people 90:00could be and could live in peace.

Then, if you look closely, there's a stripe that runs through the piece, both vertically and horizontally. It represents the Creator, Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and that really by His will we're still here and we still have a part to play in the history of the world. I think we still have things to contribute to the world, so this piece definitely speaks about that. At the bottom there's a bag there. It's a tobacco bag. You see "2011." That's when I finished the piece, but it really kind of represents Native people in the twenty-first century.

There's a lot of different layers of application of acrylic paint. There's a lot 91:00of layers of loose painting applications of acrylic paint being applied, very transparent-like and in liquid form. Then I would take different types of plastic and cloth and pour the paint on, to create those rectilinear shapes, very organic-looking, also, where the paint really infuses together and creates a background. Then I just began to paint freehand with a brush and create the rest of the painting. Lots of levels of depth in the piece but a lot of interesting areas.

I think the composition takes the viewer around the piece pretty well. It's some fairly decent content, I think. I'm really pleased with that. There's a series 92:00of things being developed in this style. I have another piece similar to it called Twenty-First Century Man, and I have a piece in the studio that I'm currently working on. Very pleased with this piece.

Little Thunder: Would you like to tell us a little bit about this one?

Tiger: Yes, this is a piece called William's Descendants. I think in the graduate program at OU, I began to incorporate photographs into the piece because it dealt with my own identity as an individual and as an artist. I had seen the photographs of this individual, this man who's in the stairs, stepping downward. As I began to learn more about this individual, he is one of the 93:00gentlemen who came from Kansas to Indian Territory in the 1860s.

His American name was William Pattiquah. He was a great-great-great-grandfather on the Sac and Fox side. The photograph is a Smithsonian photograph from 1912. He (he's my paternal grandfather) and my maternal grandfather are in a photograph together, sitting side by side when they went to Washington, DC, on behalf of the tribe to talk about land issues. I had that wonderful photograph of a relative from that time period. Not many do. I have both the maternal and paternal grandparents' photographs, grandfathers. Very, very valued image that I have in my collection. The piece is called William's Descendants, and as I 94:00learned more about this individual in talking to relatives, talking to tribal members, doing some research, it was like I was beginning to know him better and beginning to know more about him.

Also, he gave some land to my grandmother, so I grew up on that property. There's a live creek running through the property, and there was a train trestle in the back of the property, and the train track. Trains would run by. We spent a lot of times running around, fishing in the creek and swimming, and then later on, began to hunt the property with a fellow cousin. We really appreciated their efforts to hang onto the land, and it is still in the family's possession to this day. We really benefitted from this gentleman's efforts to remain intact 95:00and not sell his property. We really had a wonderful experience there on his land.

The triangle images are his descendants. There's one image with children towards the center. It's an Easter Sunday. His great-great-great-great-grandchildren are on his property and enjoying that space almost a hundred years later, actually a hundred years later and then some. Just a wonderful opportunity to spend time with your relatives on his property.

The gentleman who's just to the right of that in the yellow triangle is my uncle who was a paratrooper in the Vietnam War. I don't think he ever saw battle, but 96:00he was definitely right there, and he was preparing to go over. He may have seen a little bit of battle, (his name is Jim Wood) so carrying on that idea of being a warrior because they were definitely a warrior society. I think that was a very nice image to include into the piece, talking about his descendants.

Then to the far right is myself and my son. He's probably about a day or two old in that photograph. I look pretty rugged in the photograph because I was working graveyard at that time. (Laughter) I'd just got up from sleeping all morning, and my wife was dying Easter eggs, and our baby was just a few days old.

Little Thunder: I love the continuity of that.

Tiger: Then to the far left, there are images of people that he would've known in his community, so you see a couple there. In the full photograph (I cut away 97:00part of it) the family is standing next to a bark house. There were still some people living in those types of structures in Indian Territory. To the far, far right was the agency school that, eventually, some of his children went to and grandchildren went to. Very, very narrative, I guess, in the content of the piece.

Then you see some imagery in the back. You see the motif there, the woodland motif. Again, you see the stripe there, representing God, and that it's by His hand that we are still here and by His grace that we still live and can contribute. Again, you see the concentric circles that represent life. I wanted to include those because it talks about the generations before us that lived and died. We still have a responsibility as individual Native people to continue and 98:00contribute to society and carry on our traditions and carry on our beliefs. So the piece, Williams' Descendants, I think, is a very strong piece.

Little Thunder: We're going to look at this real quickly. This is a piece in progress, I understand.

Tiger: Yes, this is a new form that I'm working in, not working in the strictly two-dimensional rectangular shapes but taking these triangular shapes, not only that but also working in multiple planes for the center. Where the concentric circles are, that's recessed. Then, again, there's another piece that is raised even further above the overall triangular shape. It's raised off the surface quite a bit. I have a background in building homes and building things and spent some time working in remodeling and construction. I really appreciate that time because it allowed me to learn and to use some tools and to build things. I like 99:00doing that. I think that's one reason why I'm creative and I like to be creative, is because I get to use my hands.

In the arts, you can be ever-changing, or you can stay and create the same thing if you want to. I like the latter. I like to change. I'm constantly looking at new concepts. This is definitively one of the latest concepts. Very interesting shape. Every time someone sees the piece, they kind of gravitate toward it and ask questions about it, (Laughter) so I definitely need to get this one finished. I have a couple other pieces very similar to this in shape. These are some of the newer pieces that I'll be working on and getting these out in, probably, 2013.

Little Thunder: You know you've got something there. Okay, well, let's look at the big piece. I like the richness of William's Descendants, too. It looks like 100:00it's done on cloth, it's so rich-looking.

Tiger: Oh, yes. That was about restraint because there's really not a whole lot of paint on it. It's really transparent in a lot of its quality and not a lot of paint.

This piece is entitled Life. The main thing, I think, that sticks out to everybody is the three stripes again representing God: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. Very dark. I think a lot of times that's really kind of how life is perceived, especially as you get older, maybe not as a child. I think when you're young, life is very carefree. You don't have responsibilities for family or a job or income or anything like that. When you're a child I think you're very much more 101:00carefree, but you're not eliminated from pain and suffering. As you get older and older, I think your realization of what life can be and what it basically can become is pretty dark.

So, again, you see the concentric circles in the back, completing the piece both from top to bottom. Filling in that space represents mankind, and not always seeing each other clearly. I think it deals with more of man as a whole and not necessarily Native man, just mankind as a whole. You see some differences in different colors and shapes, and they're not all the same, kind of the idea of different cultures, not fully understanding each other and not seeing each other clearly as God sees us.

I think that's where we have a lot of trouble in our world, is that we don't understand each other, we don't respect each other, and so it makes life hard. We see that even today, with all the rumors of wars and all the different actions that different countries are taking against everybody.

The thing that I see about the piece that's most important and even the title of it is that we can change. We can begin to understand and try to understand why we're here. I think that's really what life is about. It's about God gave us an opportunity to experience life, to get to know Him in a way that can change your life. I think a lot of times we really believe that we are here for us, but, really, I don't see that in the things that I read and in the Bible, especially. He says that He created us for Himself, to have a relationship, to know Him, to 103:00know why He's created you. And the way that He's created you also represents the idea of a triune being. We do have a physical, we do have a spiritual side, and we also have the capacity to think and to learn.

If you think about the Creation, itself, everything is pretty much in its perfect order, how we rotate around every twenty-four hours, how every thirty days the moon rotates around us, and how we, every 365 days, rotate around the sun and at the perfect axis. If there was one degree change, just even a small amount, somebody's going to die on earth. God has placed us in a very particular way in a very particular creation, and He's given us seasons to understand who 104:00He is and how we are to live and respond to Him.

So, the piece, even though it's very dark, I think it has a lot to say about humanity and the possibilities of an idea that there is a Creator that we cannot see. The little rectilinear shapes on the surface (they are blue) represent His spirit going out to mankind and trying to touch them in a way that they would understand, "I'm God, and I'm in control. I created you, and I created you for a purpose." The piece is titled Life, and it's an acrylic painting stretched on canvas around a wooden stretcher. I think it's a very interesting piece.

Little Thunder: Thank you for sharing that story, and thank you very much for 105:00taking time out to interview with us today.

Tiger: Well, thank you very much for coming.

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